Should I Delete That? - Being a good person with Alice Liveing

Episode Date: August 20, 2023

This week, Em and Alex are joined by personal trainer and OG Instagram influencer Alice Liveing. When Alice started using social media, the support and praise she received from the online world kept her afloat; but soon, her desire for virtual validation had become all-encompassing, and she realised it was preventing her from truly knowing herself. She knew she needed to accept her whole self, and this meant accepting that she wasn’t perfect. She and the girls discuss how little space is given to existing imperfectly online. Alice also shares her heartbreaking experience of living through an abusive relationship. If you or someone you know are affected by any of the topics discussed in this podcast, you can check out Women’s Aid at https://www.womensaid.org.uk/ or Refuge at https://refuge.org.uk/ or call the National Domestic Abuse Helpline on 0808 2000 247Follow Alice on Instagram @aliceliveingEmail us at [e-mail] us @shouldideletethatProduced & Edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I think the biggest thing that we have to learn is internal self-validation. Nothing came from within me. I totally depended on waking up each day and having people tell me that I was great. Hello and welcome back to Should I Delete That? I'm Alex Light. I'm called M. Glauquesen and Hello in France

Someone's in France It's me I am so jealous How is it Stunning My French is appalling But I am God loves a tryer

God loves a trier They do and it's good to try Yeah I know I don't think the French love a tryer But nevertheless They really don't No they have no time It's crushing I arrive and I say

bonjour, sava, where, like, de loo, so please, like, blah, blah, la, and they go, water still are sparkling. I'm like, oh, I thought I had you,

I thought you, but they can just smell it on me. Oh, they can. Yeah, everybody's spoken to be fluent in English. It's been heartbreaking. Is your good that you're in France? My good is that I'm in France. Olai's been swimming in the sea,

which has been stunning. Yeah, loves it. Loves the water. So we're going to sea, had her in the pool and yeah she's really like it's a risk because I did not like the water when I was a kid but she's just loving it good that's really sweet yeah yeah so nice to have her here and just oh it's just joy um Watson you're good please we got an aircon unit right a couple weeks ago and I was like for fuck sake we've bought an aircon unit when there's absolutely no need for it

because it's no degrees here and all of a sudden it's shot up to 30 or almost 30 and I put it on last night and when I tell you I had one of the best sleeps of my entire life and I was snuggled into my duvet and it was like blissfully like ice it glue cold in the room and I'm just delighted I'm really happy for you thanks no one deserves an aircon unit more than you thank you I agree you got bad or awkward for me it's so untrue it's like literally this is like climate change the world's on fire like so many more people deserve it but that's Yeah, I believe your sleeping sound. But let's celebrate me.

Yeah, this is all about you. Okay, so my bad is I'm here with a lot of people and there is a plague in the household. The squits have come to France. Oh, no. Everybody's got the trots. And it's like playing a horrible game. It's just a waiting game. I know it's coming for me.

And I know it's probably coming for my baby and my husband too. And there's nothing we can do. So we're just sitting in a state of panic. Oh, my God. It's the worst. you'd rather just have it and get it over and done with. That's nothing I want more because I don't want to be the last person to have it because everyone else will be feeling like fine.

Like, at least at the moment, everybody's else. So everyone's on shit form and it's fine. Yeah. But like if everybody gets better and then it's just me, it's like, oh good, I'll be the last. Like at the moment, everyone's staying close to the house so that we can like be safe. But sure enough, sure enough, they'll all get better and be like, guys, let's go for a beach day and I'll be like, cool, cool, shit. And people do just shit themselves in the sea

You know, I think that's really wrong Alex, you pee in pools Like you've got no authority to talk to me about Sorry, don't say it as if like Toilet etiquette No, no no, I have peed at some point in my life in the pool I don't pee in pools I don't specifically go to pools and pee

Anyway Honestly, it's put me right off, I've been in the pool I'm like, oh, oh how many Alex lights have been in here Opening their urethras All of us Anything bad? Opening their euse resourisis Yes, my best.

bad. My bad is also to do with bodies. I have exma. I've always had exma. No biggie. But I've got exma in a new place. Ooh. I'm a bum crack. No, there's nothing less sexy than a flaky butt crack. I know. Well, it's not flaky. It's just more like extremely inflamed and possibly bleeding. Oh no. Are you itching in public? Do you look like you've got worms? This is the worst thing. I can't itch in public. I don't. obviously can't itch in public, because I can't itch in public. So I'm like, I'm like scratching myself up and down the chairs. It's bad.

It's not good. Literally. Oh, no. She's scratching her rashy bum crack on furniture in central London. Watch out for me. I'll pee in your pool and I'll run my ass on your chair. So, yeah, that's not good. Watch out for me.

gorgeous um yeah that's my bad what's your awkward awkward i'm such a tragic excuse for a human being i swear to god so i got a new pair i'm so excited like obviously i've put a bit of weight on because i had a baby so fair fucks i had to buy some new summer clothes so i've got an amazing pair of denim shorts from abacrombie that i've had for years and i love them and i've got them in my old size and they don't fit so i was like okay they're like they they're a good length like they're the curve love mum shorts from Abercrombie for anyone listening. They're a really good length

so they don't go right up your bum. The dad's ones are a bit longer but they don't go right up your ass crack which is good for you because yours is itchy and they kind of prevent chump rub because it goes down a little bit further and they just sit really well because I've got much wider bum and smaller waist right so they're just amazing so I had them before and I was like you know what I'm going to get them again in a size bigger so that I can go

to France and wear them and I got them in a different colour so that if I'm between sizes I could get them are different. They're amazing. Honestly, they're fab, right? Anyway, so I put them on with my swimming costume for the first morning and I was stealing my oats. We were up early because I basically don't sleep because I have a baby that just doesn't sleep. So we went for a little walk and I was just, I was feeling much better about myself than I thought I would feel for the first time getting into the swimming costume after having me. Anyway, got back all I fell asleep for a nap. I was like, I'm going to take this opportunity to do a little tanning. So I took

my shorts off and I was lying there and I looked down and I was like, why did I have a bar code on my leg and I think whilst I had been sweating the barcode from the tag of my denim shorts had imprinted on my leg

like transferred onto my leg which is where it remained for like a whole day so everyone was like oh why have you got a barcode on your butt cheek I look like

Do we have a picture? Yeah of course we've got a picture I'll send it we'll have it on the Instagram Thank you I need to see this thank you very much Like, what a little loser. Love that.

What a loser. I'm also a loser. I, again, my awkward is a repeat awkward, but I didn't pull into someone's drive this time. It's not that one. But I was in a meeting, a really important meeting actually with, like, big important people. And we were, a guy in the meeting, we somehow got onto dogs. And then he was like, oh, unfortunately, my dog died a few weeks ago. And I was like, oh, God.

No, but I was fine. I was like, you know, that's fine. Okay, well, I'm sorry for you, but, you know, that's fine. And he was like, yeah, it was really sad, but we had a great last night together. And then just proceeded to tell this story about how the dog, like, knew it was dying and, like, came to cuddle on him and just, just sat on his chest all night. And I, and I, so then I'm off. I'm done, I'm gone. But I can't catch my breath because I'm like, a dog videos are really just, like, sad dog videos are really,

getting me at the moment. They're really hurting my soul and everything. So, yeah, so I was crying in this meeting. Everyone's looking at me. My manager's looking at me like, this is not the time, nor the place. No, it's so bad, Al. We need to help. I mean, I can't chastise you anymore because I've also hijacked somebody's dead dog, dead dog story. We're as bad as each other, except now you're worse than me because you've done it twice, and I've really done it once. I know, I know, I know. It is bad. It is, but that's very sad that the dog knew it was. dying that kind of I can't I can't I know I can't even think about it again

I got myself into a bit of an emotional state to be honest because after obviously last week's it's just me episode when we talked about you know humans going to space and the conspiracy theories and whatever I remember that the Russians sent a dog to space and then I got really panicked because I never followed through with the Google to check that it came back again it did

but then I had these horrible thoughts of it being like oh my God imagine if it just floated to its own death and it would have just been waiting for someone to love it and come back for it and no one ever will because it's in an okay stop it why you do it what are you doing to me well I don't know why I'm not because it was only in space for like seven minutes it was absolutely fine okay good good fuck I can't take it sorry sorry sorry sorry that's literally all I've been thinking about all afternoon

okay okay thankfully the dog survived okay we're good yeah dog was fine we're good and we have oh we have a guest we have a guest we have a guest She's currently, randomly, in France, literally around the corner from me, so I think I might see her tomorrow. But for now, we've got her on the podcast. We've got the amazing... Oh my God, I hate you all. I actually hate you all. That's not how you introduce a nice guest. We're so lucky to have her. Because I hate her. I'm jealous. Okay? I'm a jealous bitch. Anyway, go on. I did invite you out here, but like, I did. We tried to make it work, didn't we? And it just wasn't possible.

And I don't want to say it was a last minute invite, but it was a bit of a last minute invite. But that's fair. Why would you? I didn't invite you on my family holiday. Why would I? Fair? Fair. Sorry, Al. I'll invite you on literally everywhere else I go for the rest of my life. Thank you. No, I was gutted. I actually really wanted to come, but it didn't work. And I was, it hurt. It hurt. It really hurt. Anyway. I get that. This is a brilliant interview.

A terrible introduction to it. Alice speaks a lot more sense than we do. She does speak a lot more sense. We've got the wonderful Alice living. And we just want to put a small trigger warning. For the end of this episode, the last 15 minutes or so, Alice talks about her experience of domestic abuse. So listener caution is advised. Hi, Alice. Hi.

How are you? I'm good, yeah. I'm feeling ready for a holiday, to be honest. But no, I'm really good. Yeah, I'm very excited to be here. I was very honored to be asked on your podcast. I'm a big fan. Oh, thank you. We were honored that you said, yes. Always awkward if you ask like an acquaintance or a friend, and they're like, ooh, no. I don't want to do that. Oh, that would be really.

awkward um we were talking before we came the last time that we both saw you was at a women's aid event yes a refuge event so I mean I don't know I was listening to your podcast with um Roxy Nafusi this morning and you were you yeah about the things like years ago well it was it's 20 20 yeah um and this you've done so much in your life and I think she said it in the interview she was like you you it's a surprise to learn how young you are because you've done so much with like your life but then it's not something because you look very young so it's fine but um you grew up really fast yeah like that's what i learned about you listening to that episode and it hadn't occurred to me that you'd had so much like trauma in your past do you feel like an older soul god i've always

felt like an old soul i feel like sometimes there are some people that i've always wanted to be older that i remember being 12 and being like oh my god i just want to be 30 and have family and kids like I always wanted to be older and then weirdly you're absolutely right like I I don't know whether it was the same as my peers but I definitely remember and like part of the reason why like I feel I kind of you know went into you know and I'm sure we're coming on trip but like went into that relationship and went into other things in my life was because I've always wanted to be independent out the house like be grown up and now I'm like slow down I'm not ready you're all this child no I'm the middle oh weird yeah I'm the middle

And I think like, yeah, I've just always, I had an older sister and I always looked up to and thought, my God, I'm desperate to be, like, having that independence. And as soon as I could and she'd pass a driving test, I was like, give me your provisional license so I can go to Revs in Beaconsfield and, like, get in and party. But like, I was just desperate for it. I really, yeah, I've always, always had that. But yeah, you're right. I think some of my growing up has not only been done really publicly, but also really speedily as I've had to kind of, I guess, you know, adjust to my career and all of that changing and you know all of that so yeah yeah because you have i mean you've been in the i don't know how you call it like in the public eye an influencer i guess for a long time now haven't you yeah i'm like when i went to i had a meeting at instagram not long ago and they were like we're describing you as legacy talent and i was like oh wow that feels really but yeah like a long time so i think i started my my page back in god like 2014 15 maybe i think something like that. That is a really long time.

It's like a decade online. Yeah. So you were like one of the first kind of social media influencers. You were the one of the first that I remember. Me and I were speaking about this before. Beforehand, I was like you've, I feel like you were definitely one of the first. Yeah. And you were really young at the time.

Yeah. So I started when I was at college. So I went to theatre school and I was at, um, at college. And I probably would have been 20, 20, 21. when I first started posting like regularly and kind of I never saw it as because obviously at the time influencer like as a career didn't even exist there wasn't even such a thing as being like a personality online um I just did it as kind of you know this is a fun thing to do I wanted to engage with other people that were doing at the time a similar thing to me but yeah I was I was I was 20 I recognize

probably about 20 and you know it was so innocent back then it was so nice as well you know what I think to how social media is now I'm like oh it was so lovely everyone I don't I don't even remember there being like any kind of conflict or friction or you know trolling I know it was a great time guys so nice but no so yeah I feel like I feel like I started at a time when you know social media was just taking off and I was just starting to kind of find myself as an adult I'd moved away from home I was living in London you know when I think back to my best years of my life I obviously love every stage of my life but I loved that stage I was living in a flat in

sidcup if anyone knows it's it's a lovely place um and I lived with my best friend Lewis and you know our four other really close um flatmates and it was just like life was like so fun and free and you know I was very much living hands a mouth and had no money and was you know a student obviously at the time but it was just it was great and I think that um the Instagram world kind of just offered an extension of, you know, engaging with new people and finding my voice and my identity. And so, yeah, took on. Was the content fitness at the beginning? No, only food. So actually when I first started, I was posting only about food and my page was private for a long time. So I called myself clean eating students. And I literally just used it as more of like a food diary and

like followed other people that were doing similar things at the time. And then I think it was when I realized that, you know, I wanted to have other people see my content and be able to engage more with others. I opened it up and I changed my name to Clean Eating Alice. But yeah, it was more food and the fitness only came, you know, quite a bit later. How much later? Gosh, I don't know. It's so hard like time stamping things now because it all feels like a bit of a blur, but I would say maybe like I definitely was training because obviously I was training as a dancer. So like I was still going to the gym but I'd never discovered weight training and I have to credit Joe Wicks with like kind of opening my eyes to

lifting weights and doing all that sort of stuff although he was sort of more of the hit side of things but I do remember following him and thinking oh I want to start incorporating some of that into my content and so yeah I started going to the gym but I never posted like workouts it was more the body transformation stuff because at the time my physique was changing and I very much kind of pinned my content on look at me look at what I've done so it was very very much, you know, more taking photos in the mirror, sharing my body, and attributing that to fitness rather than actually sharing fitness content in itself. It feels really weird to think of somebody, like, if I think about exercise now, or

like someone that's really, like, knows their shit, I think of you. I'll be like, Alice knows what's up. Like, she's an expert in all these things. And it's really funny to think about you at the beginning of a journey, because it's, like, it's the same as like a teacher learning to be a teacher. I'm like, what did that happen? Yeah. I was just an odd thought

come when with your fitness sharing it publicly because you have come on a long way like I feel like it and also the internet like you say like it's very different like if you started doing transformation stuff now people would be like what you doing but but do you not feel like yes for our generation but not for like 21 year olds

I see the same pattern now coming around again of people that were just like me who you know are doing the same journey and pumping out the same content that I did like 10 years ago. And it's so interesting how I feel because of the echo chamber and the place that I've got myself to in the world that I exist in now that we've come on so far. But then you only have to dig even a tiny bit below the

surface on social media to see, well, that generation, you know, after us are doing the same thing again. Yeah, that's what makes me sad. My feeling is that content really exists on TikTok and it's not that accepted on Instagram maybe it's just because I'm in my own bubble on Instagram and I don't I don't follow those kind of people on there but it feels like I get served a lot of that content on TikTok and it feels very much it feels like back in the you know 2015 like in that kind of era of transformation clean eating like body checking and even like what I eat in a day videos those were like a no no for a long time and I remember you know really recognizing that there was a problematic aspect to sharing everything that you ate in a day

as if it were kind of follow me and you'll look like me. But I see that happening now again and then becoming totally normalized. So it's so funny how everything's cyclical in life, isn't it? Like stuff comes in, stuff goes out, trends will come and go. But I feel like I had really felt for a while that we'd come on a long way in terms of, and you know, to look at mainstream media, look at advertising, there is definitely a shift in terms of the people that they're using, the diversity that they have, the kind of variability in sizes and shapes and colors and all that sort of stuff is great. But yeah, there's definitely still this pocket of social media that I see that still very much heavily focuses on, you know, all of the kind of toxic stuff that I feel

like all of us have maybe moved away from. And that's not to say that that's necessarily a bad thing because also I never want to be someone who's like you shouldn't do this like I spent a lot of my time being really frustrated and angry at people doing the stuff that I felt I'd moved away from and still felt was problematic I think it's more you know maybe their journey will be similar to ours maybe they just need to go on that process and um and learn as we did you know you don't you don't have everything figured out at 21 it's okay to make mistakes Jesus I had to learn that the hard way so maybe it's that they're going on that same thing I think with my compassionate hat on, you have to allow people to make those mistakes, especially when

they're young. And as much as I'd love to think that some of them will swerve that trend and, you know, be drawn in by people like you guys, I do think that there's something to be said for women growing up and going through all those body struggles and, you know, navigating the murky world of diet culture and hopefully coming to a place where they do come out the other side and feel comfortable but that takes time you know all of us are examples of having to having to learn the hard way and you know to make the mistakes and um and i think that it's really important that we don't just assume that everyone's going to sing from the same hym sheet you know straight off the bat and and know that you know those sorts of things fads and um you

know a lot of the diet culture trends are are awful like they just you know they need to learn their own way it's also a bit brutal as well that we put the onus and like i know again we're all learning but it is then nuts that I think because of that we look at how look at a person and think oh they've got it really easy and they'll tell you off or reprimand you or advise you not to do it or whatever and it's generally not very kind because it's generally a lashing out and saying this has triggered me or whatever you need to not be doing this but you're still on your journey and it's it's a lot of pressure that we put on individuals that we deem problematic and I find like that's a really grey area in the fitness industry in diet culture spaces on the internet because it's like it's not yeah okay it's not it's not ideal that people are doing these body transformations and body checking and whatever but they're on their journeys and they're doing it for a reason and it's kind of nuts how much pressure we then put on individuals to stop doing all of that and just somehow just don't like just don't do that and it's like but that's a I'm not explaining that very well but it's a lot of pressure basically I feel like it's put

on people like you to be doing it perfectly right we have come to a place if we think about Instagram in 2015, when it first started, well, not when it first started, 2014, 15, when I first started thinking it was taking off, I think people were much more forgiving of, of people being allowed to be fallible and to make mistakes. I was able to have a really big climb down from, you know, what was publicly quite a problematic space. That's what I meant for the question to be. Yeah. How was that for you as an individual having to undo it? Yeah. And like not do that anymore. But I think that, you know, I sit here incredibly grateful that I have an audience of people who allowed me to really hold my hands up and say, I got it wrong. And I think that I do feel

that the space we've now shifted to and where I now feel that we are is far more unforgiving. And I think that is that what you're trying to say, is that like, we don't give people the grace to be fallible and to make mistakes. And not in the same way. anyway. And so as much as I do feel incredibly grateful that I was given that grace to be able to say, you know, this is what I thought then and actually this is what I think now and those two things are different and I'm going to explain to you why. I feel that would that have happened now, I think it would be a very different response. And I think that's a really difficult thing for us as creators, but even just for consumers of social media, it puts this immense pressure on us to

get it right first time and to get things right just in general. And it means that you, Alex, me, we all become a little bit censored. We don't want to share as much because we're worried about making mistakes. And so everything becomes much more, you know, dulled down. And we just don't allow for discourse and for allowing people to make mistakes and giving them the grace to do that. I think there's a way to do it obviously. And like, you know, when you ask about that kind of climb down from where I was, I had to do it with humility and to take people on that journey of saying, I got things wrong and I'm happy to always hold my hands up when I make mistakes. You know, I do think that that's really important that just generally in life, we give people the grace

to get it wrong and to be able to come back from that. But it is in how you, you know, work your way out of that that's really important. And so I had to take people on that journey with me with 100% honesty and with having the ability to say, I'm still figuring it out. I don't have all the answers. I'm going to really try to be, number one, the best coach I can be and make sure that I'm educated in the information that I put out, but also that I share that, you know, this is where I'm at now, but I might feel differently in five years time. I might have completely changed my opinion on something and I need you to allow me to figure that out myself as much as I'm happy to share my life online like I don't have all the answers none of us do and um I think that when we place people on

a pedestal like myself like you guys as a as an expert and as someone that we go to for this specific type of content or you know whatever it is we cannot you know we cannot look at those people as being perfect and having all the answers none of us are um and so I just am yeah I'm really grateful that my shift came at a time when I think people were a little bit more forgiving online, I think that the world that we exist in now is a little bit more complex and challenging, unfortunately. It does feel like one strike you're out now, doesn't it?

Which means you kind of live in this permanent state of fear that everything's going to come crumbling down because you say the wrong thing or you make the wrong move. And it is a shame because you're right, you do end up being censored and maybe not having the conversations that you would, like ideally like to have I don't know

talking about a friend but you can't do like one thing that's like you've got to do everything right you can't do like one thing like imagine like if I just I don't know I can't think of something

I'm scared because anything I say is definitely the truth I don't know but like imagine imagine like it's what you were saying did you say it but Ashley were you saying it yesterday

that Ashley Graham had lost weight yeah yeah yeah you felt that the internet was a bit kinder but it's like when a plus when a plus person isn't plus size anymore the internet can't handle it when like a fitness trainer stops exercising we can't handle it. Do you think there's something in that and I've been thinking about this a lot recently is like we love the struggle we love to follow someone who's like I'm struggling um you know I would say my most engaged content is when I'm overly vulnerable I might share that I'm struggling with

my body image or I am finding life challenging or having a mental health moment or you know struggling with whatever it is that I'm going through we love to see the struggle and we find kind of relatability in that which is great and I do think it's important that we share those things but we therefore struggle when people don't struggle do you see what I mean when someone's doing really well they're celebrating their successes they're genuinely really happy yeah we're not so quick to cheer them on I'm not going to name this person but I've seen a person online who I've followed for years who has gone through this whole life shift where she moved away from a partner. She has now met someone else and got engaged and she's

very happy. And I've seen all of these comments of people going, you're not genuinely happy. It's really problematic what you're doing. Like I can tell that this is all fake. And I really feel for her because I'm like, my God, like she's clearly trying to say, like I'm in a great place. And people like, no, but you're not. You're not. You're really struggling. And that might not be the perfect example but what I mean is is that I think there's something to be said for us really enjoying seeing someone you know go through it a little bit I'm going to be honest myself included I find it incredibly relatable when someone like uh Stacey Solomon is like this is my body image and I'm struggling with it but like this is me I love that but I also and I oh god I feel I don't know whether I'm able to say this

but I think it's more of sometimes a female against female thing as well yeah we've been set against with women there's a level of competitiveness there's a level of you know if you're not struggling as much as i am you can't complain there's a level of you know if you're really happy and doing well that's you know that's not fair and i just think there's something to be said for um you know us being a little bit more compassionate to both ends of the spectrum to people that are going through it and struggling but also you know having happiness and love and compassion for people that are doing really well and you know I have to check myself many times when I'm going on Instagram or TikTok or whatever it is and that thought comes into my head where I go

she's got it so easy or oh my God you know she's really like you know gloating in her happiness and like those thoughts come into my head because I'm human and because it's normal for us to feel those things I remember when I said to my therapist that I was jealous of someone she was like this is great she's like this is really great you need to be honest about these things but like it's important that we acknowledge them but I can also challenge those thoughts as well and like be curious about them why am I jealous of this person why do I feel a sense of um you know frustration when someone else gets something that I don't have it's like it's interesting that we have all these things and we are all again we're human it's natural for us to have them but you know

we have to learn that and this has gone off on a massive tangent I don't know what my point is but basically we have to learn to challenge those things and and to be um you know you you know, able to have both ends of the spectrum being okay. Do you think people project a lot onto you? Like, I'm hearing you speak about your body image, and I've seen you speak a lot about your body image online, but looking at, and I suspect you get this a lot where a lot of people look at you and think you're so strong

and you're petite and, like, you've got an amazing figure, and I think that's quite hard for people to then have empathy with you when you say I have body image issues, because people will look at you and go, but you look amazing, so you can't possibly. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a big thing. And look, I actually do think that on that point, it is important to acknowledge that I can talk about body image issues, but I do tend to say, you know, I'm going to caveat this with the fact that I'm still a slim, white woman that has a very socially acceptable body. I do think that, you know, we have to be real about these things. There's not, you know, I'm not going to say, oh, woe is me. Like, life is so awful for me. But I think on the flip side of that, I also have really genuinely struggled with my body image coming from a place where I was a professional. dancer I was you know lean as anything and as as the narrative tells us if we gain weight it's often seen as a bad thing so I'm having to really unlearn that thought of you know that way of

thinking and learn to accept the body that I'm in in the healthy place that I've got myself to but it hasn't been easy and so yeah I share that side of things but I do think that that it's it's hard when yeah you're right I don't I can't speak for everyone on body image issues and I can't represent anyone so I can only share what I experience and be honest with that but yeah it's difficult in terms of you're right I think people sometimes just go I don't understand like but you look great and it's like that that's you know that's lovely and kind of you'd say but it's not always marrying up with how I feel and I think that therefore that's important for us to to talk about you know definitely because like and like you said it's so

like we understand the point that yes you are a you know a slim woman that your body is very socially acceptable you've got you don't face any oppression due to your size but to silence you about your body image struggles that just then silences all the other people who look similar to you who have body image struggles and it's such a shame i think i've seen a lot of that happening and everything's relative as well even me i'm you know i'm bigger than you but when i talk about my body image issues. I have people saying to me, but it's all right for you. You know, try being a plus size woman, try being a size 20 or whatever. It's like, it's all relative. But if you've, if you struggle and you're willing to talk about it, I think everyone should do it because it's

going to help, you're not going to speak to everyone, but you're going to speak to a good amount of people who feel similar to you and look similar to you and can really relate to that. So I think it's important that you share still. Yeah and look life isn't a competition just because you are struggling more than me doesn't mean that I can't accept that I'm also struggling as well. Do you know what I mean? Totally. It shouldn't be comparable in that sense. Like we shouldn't exist in a world where you can only struggle if you're the worst of something or you're struggling the most with something. We can all have our individual struggles. We can all talk about them honestly. It doesn't mean that, you know, I can sit here and say, oh, but you've got it so much better than me. You can't, you know,

you can't complain. It basically doesn't serve anyone to do that. I actually find that really problematic. You know, there's been a few things where I've seen stuff, you know, that people sort of say or do or whatever. And, you know, when people kind of have a moan, basically, which we all love to do and is totally human. And people go, I can't believe you're doing that. Like, you're so privileged. How can you, you know, there are people out there that are, you know, really struggling. It's like, yeah, there are. And I'm not discounting the fact that there are genuinely really struggling, but that doesn't minimize the feeling that I have and it doesn't mean that I could, you know, feel any less. If anything, what you do is actually just invalidate

how someone's feeling and make them, you know, feel doubly guilty for even having, you know, a kind of a feeling of inadequacy because they feel like they shouldn't. It just, yeah, it doesn't serve anyone. Yeah, exactly. And there's that quote that, and I said it so many times on the podcast and every time I've butchered it. But it's, it's basically like, you can, you can, you either drown in five inches of water or five metres of water, but you still drown. Yeah. Yeah. Did you get it?

It's like, yeah, I get what you mean. And I think, yeah, I think that the biggest take home that I, I have had to learn about social media and using it in a healthy way is to like minimize the comparison aspect of it. Like I know that obviously this has been said time and time again, like comparison culture, yada, yada, yada. But I do think that particularly on that, on people sharing things about themselves and talking about their lives and whatever, like not feeling as though they are any better or worse than me or I am any better or worse than them, that we're both existing individually in the context of our lives and what I'm experiencing feels like a big struggle to me because I maybe haven't experienced anything worse than that. But also I'm able to be compassionate to someone who's really going through it and I can see that, you know, they're also struggling. It's like we can both exist at the same time and both feel what we're feeling without one or the other needing to sort of compare. Do you see what I mean? And isn't that so hard getting to a place where you don't do that anymore?

I still struggle with that. I find that so difficult. And we say it all the time comparisons to Thief of Joy. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's a really toxic behavior, but it's so hard because it's like I actually don't know if it's hardwired in us or it's just reinforced in us from a really, well, it is reinforced in us from a really young age. I don't know if it's hardwired in us, but it feels like we're just hardwired to compare, and it's so difficult. But practice does make not perfect, but better, doesn't it?

And, like, every little time that you can catch yourself and stop yourself, I find that to be, like, I find that progress really satisfying because I'm like, oh, my God, I realized that. I was comparing myself to her. And actually, you know, and usually it's something random, like, I've spoken to this before, like, I can't cook, find it really difficult to cook. And I see people whip up meals, like, just whip up casual meals for dinner. And I'm like, how do you do that?

It makes me feel so bad about myself. I get some really funny messages from our whenever I cook anything. I'm like, super easy recipe tonight, guys. And Al's always like, easy, huh? Like, what? You've named like 20 steps. That's not easy. But it's so, it's so hard.

You're absolutely right. Like, how can we not exist in a world where we have an insight into, I don't know, how many people have followed on Instagram, maybe like, I think, a thousand people. I'm looking at 1,000 people's days. you know, at least once a week, seeing what they get up to, seeing what they're doing. And like, how could you not compare? Like, it would be impossible to not look at that

and be like, oh, I really want what she's got. Oh, I really wish that I could be like her. It's more that, exactly as you said, like you can challenge those thoughts. And you can learn that, like, again, I'm sure you guys have said this, but like, yeah, if it's like toxic stuff, you can curate, sorry, your space to be more positive.

but at the same time like there's people that I love following that I still get really triggered by I'm just being totally honest like it just happens and I'm in two minds about this they're like curating because and I can't remember where I heard this

but I heard the phrase run towards your triggers which is terrifying but really good so whenever someone triggers me I'm like I want to one follow them but at the same time I'm like why do they trigger me so much maybe I should learn

I found on that one like one of the biggest I guess maybe because I'm just like going through a massive physical change like having just had a baby and I think one of the biggest like triggers for me not use that word loosely but like is seeing probably like people like you who have kept and maintained like amazing strength and like a great figure and like I follow some like absolute machines on Instagram and now when I look at them and I'm like a literal pot of jelly I'm like uh-huh like and the temptation maybe would have been on that level like oh unfollow them because it's not me it's not serving me

I'm not close to that or whatever. And actually I remembered one of the biggest switches I ever did in my own head when I was in the gym because I used to go to F-45 and I would always think, oh God, I'm really intimidated by these people and I would literally swap the word intimidated for inspired to be like, no, I'm not intimidated, I'm inspired. They all started here. I can do that too. And I'm having to like remind myself and I think it is really good that I didn't unfollow

those people because it's made me stick and do that work and look and be like, no, I'm inspired. They got, they started somewhere, I can start somewhere, I can get there, I can get there. I won't. I'm never going to be able to do like 50 pull-ups wearing a second, like, tire, but it's like nice to dream. But I think it's so important as well, and I never do this, but I think it's so important to remember, like, someone, we are seeing, like, this picture or this video or someone, and the backstory is not available to us at all, and we don't have a clue, and we're very, you know, we're very surface-level creatures, aren't we? So we just take it at a surface level, and if we take it, I don't know why it's this cooking thing, it's embarrassing. But if we take that, this is what I think now. I'm like, okay, well, maybe her mom helped teach her how to cook when she was younger, you know? Maybe she did so. Good, and then you get angry with your mom.

Yeah, yeah, and I'm like, mom. Also, like, you just don't, you just don't know. And everyone is brought up different. Everyone, and yeah, I'm, I guess I'm just saying this to like anyone who struggles with comparison because it is so horrible. It is so hard. But also, like, there are so many other qualities that you probably have that, you know, whoever chef on Instagram is

cooking up doesn't have like it's like debatable. No but I think it's really important that like just because someone else's light is shining bright doesn't dim yours you know like she might be good at cooking she doesn't have this, she doesn't have that

like we could go through it and round you know round the houses on those things but like it's it's about just reminding yourself that like I think the biggest thing that I have really had to do and look I've had years of therapy like whew I've gone through it But I think the biggest thing that we have to learn is internal self-validation.

Like, I spent the formative years of my life getting all of my validation from 600, however many thousand people on the internet. My whole existence was based of people telling me, if I looked good, how well I was doing, how successful I was. Like, nothing came from within me. I totally depended on waking up each day and having people tell me that I was great. So, like, I had nothing in terms of understanding that I was a nice, a likable person, a good-hearted person, a kind person. Like, I remember the first time, oh my God, it's actually going to make me emotional, the first time my therapist was like, Alice, I really like you. And I burst into tears. Like, I cried my eyes out because I could not imagine that, like, because as much as I understood that, like, everyone liked Alice living that was on Instagram,

behind the scenes I didn't like myself at all and I didn't think that people would like me so like when she said it to me she was like Alice I really like you I literally I remember the session so well I burst into tears because I could not imagine that I was a likable person and because I'd done no work on finding who I actually was everything was about the image that I was portraying who I was online you know my whole journey had been played out so publicly

from such a young age that like nothing came for within whereas now and like look I'm not there but I have done so much work on like inner validation on knowing who I am and that I'm a good person like I can't tell you how many times you have to like reiterate yourself like regardless of what anyone in the internet thinks says does about me like I can go to sleep and put my head on my pillow at night and say I'm a good person I try my best day and day out and I've fuck up and I get it wrong and I am totally fallible like the rest of us but like ultimately I'm a decent person and as long as I can do that like that's what gets me out of bed in the morning because like it's otherwise it becomes impossible you're at the behest of like thousands

of people who could switch your mood in a second by being like you know your face looks like a foot or whatever it is like you know like whatever I just think that like my my whole day could be like a total emotional roller coaster of this person says you look great that person's criticised you this person says that this is amazing about you that person said you're doing it wrong like it could be it was exhausting whereas now like I can go on and I can be more objective about the fact that like this is the content I'm sharing I'm decent at what I do I'm a great coach I'm educated I'm knowledgeable in my sphere of influence and I can leave that platform and still know that like regardless of what happens on there I'm a good person that's that's probably been the

biggest breakthrough moment for me in my whole life. And like going back to what you say a lot, M, is that let the people who don't think you're a good person, let them be wrong about you. It doesn't matter. Such a relief, isn't it? Yeah. You can do that. I can't, I don't need to stop you. I don't need, I don't need to. Because it actually doesn't matter. It just doesn't know. It only matters that I think I'm, that I know I'm good. Yeah. The likability thing is so relatable to me. Like literally, I think I had very, not similar, but not too dissimilar. With the, with, with the external validation all the time and it does make you question

yourself because you just put everything in the hands of other people and being likable and I think that's definitely part of being a woman as well as we're a condition to be likable and we remember every insult and everything that might make us not feel likable or anything that makes us perceive ourselves differently

it's so important to be like it's so tragic but when people tell me that they like me I'm like oh wow thanks it's embarrassing it's like it's desperate I'd rather be like than loved because I just think people are condition you know people yeah yeah people have to love you but I feel so um

like I still find it really uncomfortable and like I never know how to act when someone's like on the street or whatever like I follow you an Instagram and I think you're amazing I'm like oh my god thank you so much but I find this really awkward because I don't really know how to be because it's almost so alien to me for someone to like be so nice and be like you're a really likable person I think

you know I and like I visited a lot of this in like you know the work that I've done but growing up my experience at school with friendship like I never had a secure friendship or relationship with my friends like I was very transient and very chameleon like in all of my relationships so when I found social media suddenly I had this thing that told me I was great and I'd never had that before so it felt you know like I just was like an addict as such like I just wanted more and more of it and it was so addictive in that sense and at some point like I just realized that it was actually

having the complete opposite effect I'd almost like totally disassociated from who I was and like even down to the clothes that I wore, the makeup that I did the things I did to myself like I know that we came in and started talking about you know various beauty bits as you know

as you do women and like I just think that that even that you know like I would just be so swayed by people's opinions that I had no anchoring to my sense of self I was just a lost floating being that was like one day I'm this and the next day I'm that and the next day I think I'll be this.

And it was just exhausting and I, like I said, I'm not like there yet. I don't wake up every day and go, I know who I am. But I do feel that I've had to for the preservation of my relationship, my sanity, like everything, I've had to learn to disassociate from Instagram and social media and who I actually am for sure. To touch on your formative years, your teenage years, And if you don't mind talking about it, and we don't have to talk about it, if you don't want to talk about it. Yeah, I'm totally happy.

But I think your experience was so, I mean, it sounds so shocking that you were in an abusive relationship as a teenager. But unfortunately, it probably isn't that uncommon. And I think it does sound, you know, like when you hear it, you're like, oh my God, how can that happen to a teenager? But then actually, when you hear it, it's like, well, of course it can't actually. It can happen to anybody at any age. But if you wouldn't mind talking a little bit about that.

Absolutely. I think you're absolutely right. And one of the things that I'm like learning as I do all this work with, you know, like Women's Aid are an amazing charity. I know that we referenced them earlier. Like I've been an ambassador for them for years and I think that, you know, even recently I went and did an event with them and you speak to people and there are people who've left relationships like 20 years ago who are only just realizing that they were abusive because we don't understand like how, you know, deeply abuse can kind of manifest itself and the ways in which it can happen. And it's so insidious. But yeah, like I was 16. I was really young and impressionable and kind of naive.

And I desperately wanted a boyfriend. My God. I was like, I just want a boyfriend. Everyone else has got one. I want one. And I went to this house party with my friend. I met this guy. He was a bit older than me.

He drove a car, which was just like, oh, my God. And so, yeah, we started dating. And I think that within the space of a couple of weeks, I guess, it was like very full on very quickly, which is a typical sign of abuse that it, goes from kind of zero to 100 miles an hour really quickly. They want to draw you in. They want to create a sense of security and that you are there everything and they are your everything. And that's almost the kind of like incubation period as such where it's not that I don't necessarily think

they're planning to be abusive, but there's a very typical behavior that we see through a lot of relationships that are similar in that sense. And then yeah, it turned physically abusive not long after that, you know, maybe a couple of months in, but it was very much, and I'll talk about the first instance that happened, and then you can start to understand why abusive relationships can be so confusing. So we're in the car, we're driving back from a football game, and just a trigger warning as well, like, on this one, but yeah, like we had finished the game, got into the car, and I'd assumed everything was absolutely fine, and I'd have been stood on the sidelines with one of his friends, sort of just talking, because I was watching, and I think he started to talk about

you know, from my memory, he started to talk about the fact that he found that really uncomfortable and why was I talking to his friend? And I was very confused. I was like, it's your friend. Like, what? And it kind of got a little bit like back and forth and I was like, I think in my naivity, I just couldn't understand why he cared so much about me talking to one of his friends. And then literally out of the blue, he just slapped me. Like, it was like one second I was fine. The next second, I was like, oh my God, like that complete sense of being stunned into silence. And the thing that I would say with that is why it's so difficult is it was immediately followed by oh my god i'm so sorry i can't believe i've done that oh my god i feel awful like how's this happened like and he was really remorseful

and so you know i was 16 i had very little experience of relationships otherwise i knew that slapping someone was wrong but because it was followed with this like complete you know remorse and just feeling so sorry for me and himself and whatever, I was like, ended up apologising to him and being like, it's okay, don't worry, gosh, I'm really sorry. And that pattern basically then repeated over a year and, you know, a bit longer. And I think that when you explain it like that and you understand that abuse isn't, you know, it's awful all the time, it can be.

But typically it's not awful all the time. There will be these moments where you see, the glimmer of the person that you met when you first met them and they were lovely and kind and nice and whatever and you think oh you know like if only i could you know grab onto that part of them and you know maybe they'll change and one of the things that does tend to happen which was absolutely the case in my situation was they will very much gaslight you so it was your fault that i did this it was it was your you know you made me behave like this you provoked me um i wouldn't have behave like that if you hadn't have done this. You know, it's all this language that basically

puts all of the blame on the victim. So most of the time, I wasn't actually even aware that I was experiencing abuse because I was like, God, I can't believe I'm doing all these things. Like, I don't even realize that I'm being this awful, but clearly I am. And my self-confidence just like nose dived. And I, you know, just found it horrific, but peppered with these moments where he was suddenly lovely again and everything was fine. You know, I remember that we went on a family holiday with him, like, I was the first time I was allowed to go away with a boyfriend. I was like, oh, amazing. And we went away with his mum and dad. So his parents were there. Granted, his mom at the end of our relationship, when she knew what was going on, still said he's doing nothing wrong.

Like, it was, it was awful. But anyway, we went on this family holiday with his parents. And during the middle of the night, he woke up and decided that we were going to have an argument. went over something I cannot even remember what. And he locked me out the hotel room. So, like, bearing of mind, I was 16. I'm in this, like, hotel complex. I remember walking around, like, sobbing my eyes out and having no idea what I'd done. Like, I was so confused, just being like, what the hell? And it was just, yeah, it was, it was an awful experience. And it was always just, like, every time I thought, I'm just ready to leave. And I know that I need to get out of this relationship he'd pull me back in with something or he'd make me believe that like everything was

going to be okay again and so I am I you know I ended the relationship and I think that sorry this is going on a long time but but I ended the relationship and what a lot of you know and I'm sure there will be people who are listening who have gone through similar things on ending it and when they realize that they finally don't have that control over you anymore they basically escalate their behavior we know that to be a sign of, you know, people who try and escape abusive relationships, when you finally try and break that pattern of abuse, they will then go even further. They'll double down on their behaviour. So I ended it and, you know, my parents had to unplug all our home phones. He was ringing the phone, the home phone like multiple times, day and night. I was at school and basically

he, during the middle of my school day, as I was walking from one class to the next, so he'd clearly like stalked me and like worked out where I was going to be turned up with a friend drove his car onto the middle of the high street where there are like people looking everyone's around and attacked me in the middle of the day like in the middle of the high street and um I will never forget that moment because like the thing that I would say with abuse is that what comes along with it is so much shame you know like you're so mortified and embarrassed that anyone would see you going through this situation that like I just remember like he almost just sunk to the lowest. steps and what was the and like I remember when I spoke to someone about this they were like

why are you saying you're lucky but I do feel really lucky in this sense that um it happened in front of loads of people and in a really public place so the police were called straight away I was able to make a statement I already spoken to the police a number of times before but they were pretty useless in that sense but thankfully on this occasion the police were called I was able to make a statement I got a conviction it went to court like I was able to have that moment where he was found guilty of assault and you know like i i was i was one of the lucky ones in that sense because i was able to get that when so many people don't like most of abuse happens behind closed doors it's one word against another like it's very hard to prove even harder so to get a

conviction i did feel lucky in that sense and you know my life moved on and i would say all of what i then went on to do came from a place of just trying to rebuild myself basically um but but yeah i think um you know when it comes to the work that i now do all of it is about if i can even save one person from being in that situation particularly at a young age so most of my work with women's aid centres around healthy relationships and young people then i'm doing my job right like and i'm and i'm fulfilled and satisfied that i am at least trying to undo i guess some of the pain and the trauma that I went through. So yeah, that was a lot.

I'm so sorry. Yeah. God, that's so much to deal with it. Yeah. Such a young at 16. Yeah, it was a lot. But, you know, you come out the other side. Like, well, you don't actually always.

And that's the sad thing. Like, a lot, you know, we only have to look at the stats to show how many people die a week. I think it's two women at the moment die a week from domestic abuse. But I was one of the lucky ones. I was able to leave, you know, like when I look at how abuse, you know, is so normalised in some settings, like, maybe less the physical stuff, but definitely like financial abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, because it's in a relationship. If someone walked down the street and

punch you in the face, you'd be like, oh my God, I'm ringing the police. But for example, like if I liken that first situation where he slapped me and then suddenly was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I can't believe I've done. this like it's complex it's heavy when there's kids involved you know I recently went to visit a refuge in Surrey where you know there are women there living who have fled abusive relationships when you leave an abusive relationship to go into a refuge you're cut off from all friends and family you can have no contact with anyone there was a woman there who gave birth in the

refuge she had a young child who was two I think and she'd just given birth her baby was 10 days old she gave birth on her own in a refuge with no family no friends like it's when you look at why people don't leave like leaving is not the easy option like almost in in some situations you can see why people stay but like thankfully due to like women's aid there's a woman that runs the refuge in um surrey i have to shout her out because she's an incredible woman charlotte near um she you know has got i think she's got an mb she's like one of the most amazing women i've ever met in terms of she's a victim herself and it has gone on to do all this amazing work but it's heavy like it and it and it's so insidious and like there's probably not many

people that I've spoken to who haven't in some ways had to touch with domestic abuse like you know I I've spoken to so many people who it might only have been you know a few moments but everyone's got like a story and I just think like I am I feel really lucky that my whole work now and everything that I try and do is very much awareness and trying to to help people not be in the same situation that I was, basically. Yeah, and amazing that you've been able to channel all that pain and that trauma into something that is actually really helping other people. Yeah, I hope so.

When you put your head on the pillow, honestly, you're right with your thoughts. Like, you're a really good person. You're really good stuff. Yeah, you are. Guys, stop. No, honestly, we love you. Oh, thanks. I know, we've talked a lot.

I'm so sorry. No, I know. It would have been awful if you hadn't said anything. Yeah, that happened. No, thank you so much. Honestly, I'm so grateful to be on. I love this podcast so much. Oh, we're so happy to have you. Thanks, Alice. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.