Should I Delete That? - Being body-shamed on America's Next Top Model

Episode Date: August 28, 2022

After sharing a clip of Tyra Banks telling a America’s Next Top Model contestant to eat a burger without the bread, Alex was sent a DM. The message was from that very model, Keenyah Hill, who had been essentially told to eat less by Tyra on cycle 4 of ANTM. Keenyah, 19 at the time, had also been compared to an elephant by the judges, and edited in a way that exaggerated how much and how often she was eating. Keenyah wanted to share her version of events, how being on ANTM affected her life and what it taught her about the real world of modelling. Now a pose coach and model mentor, Keenyah teaches aspiring models how to be confident in themselves and let that confidence carry them through.You can follow Keenyah and check out her work via her Instagram @keenyah.hillFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Oh my god, why did I post that? Ah, I don't know what to do. Should I delete that? Yeah, you should definitely delete that. Hello, good day. Good afternoon, good morning, good hi. I don't know what I thought was coming. Good day, good day.

Hello, how are you? I'm good, I'm good, how are you? We're doing it in person this time. Yeah, you've come up with fucking... sparkling for. I don't know what's happened. I'm like, who is she? I came to life. Yeah, Jesus. I had a cup of tea. Yeah, normally I've just got you at the other end of like a Zoom thing and you're just like, you just like, every time Zoom starts, I'm like, hi, you're right. I'm like, yeah, hi. I'm bringing the energy today. I'm okay. Yeah, no, you're looking great. Hi, it's a vibe. Hi, I like it. Let's

ride the way. Let's go. Let's go. Tell me something great. Tell me something great. You tell me something great. You tell me first. No, you go first. No, you get to, you. You're You tell me first. I want to ride this wave with your good energy. Let's go. Okay. My good is a result of you actually. You, I know.

You encouraged me to take a break from social media. And I have, and I have had the best, like, five days. It's been so blissful. I haven't posted to stories. I've posted, like, one thing. And it's just felt really good. And, like, the break I needed, for sure. Like, really nice.

I'm really proud of you. Yeah. Fucking stunning. It's like, it's so funny. when you're like caught up in it you think you can't take a break and then when you do you realize that you absolutely can and now I'm like I don't want to go back does anybody give a shit do you know what I've I've had a lot of DM saying like are you okay that's what I mean oh right because it's always sad when you go which happens to me quite a lot now I'll go for a couple

no one realizes no I'm like I mean I haven't had that many are you okays but like a couple or like one girl was like I think you've blocked me from your stories because I can't see them I know I was like no I haven't I promise I'm just taking a break yeah and it's just I just I don't know when I'm coming back and it feels quite nice I can't believe you've taken my advice yeah like I'm actually so shocked that you did it and I've kept checking kept been like wondering what Al's up to although you never know what you're up to because you go onto your page thinking that you're going to like most people if you go and look at somebody's stories it's like what they're doing like oh they're in the park or like oh they're here whereas with Al you've got nothing and then on a Sunday night it's like let me count you up on the last 48 hours in excruciating detail and then you get the whole shabang but I waited and I just didn't know what if you done this weekend who fucking knows oh my god do I go into too much detail no ow but that's our job the virtue of our job is we always know what we're doing like what did I do this weekend everybody knows had a nut roast last night yeah because I put up a fucking

stories because I had nothing else to say you're good at like putting stories up as you go along whereas I can't struggle with that but sometimes you realize how boring your life is like literally this weekend I'm with two dog walks and ate a nut roast. The nut roast did look really nice. I watched the Elvis film. Oh, was it good? Yeah.

Did you go to the cinema? No. It's out on, I tell you what, a bit cheeky. Sky let me download it, rent it, £15 to rent it. But I was like, you know what? That's what I'd be paying

for one ticket in the cinema and so we can both watch it. Rented it. And then the TV was like, the Skybox was like, sorry, your TV's not good enough, you can't watch it. And I was like,

you let me pay for it knowing full well that had a shit TV. You absolute bastards. It's so hard to watch it. I had to rent it again on Amazon because they didn't care that I had a shit TV and then I'm trying to get a refund from Sky.

Yeah, you've got to get a refund. That's really bad. 15 pounds. That's how boring my weekend what's at this as well. I've come in like just kicking off. What's your good? My good.

Well, we're pre-recording this a little bit earlier than normal because it's a bit of a mad one. So sorry if this is dated news. But my news, my good news is cultural, current affairs. It's a pop culture podcast. I don't know if you've noticed what category it's under. but Andrew Tate's been banned from Instagram and Facebook

from meta platforms and I have a lot of opinions on this my good is also my bad like well I wanted to do a whole episode about Andrew Tate but we haven't really worked out like quite how to do it yet so it's not this week's which it was going to be but I still have all my thoughts and while the iron's hot I'm going to say them so good that he's been banned if you don't know who Andrew Tate is genuinely congratulations um but he had he's a kickboxer he was on big brother in like 2006 or something was he yeah but he was kicked off after a video emerged of him trigger warning uh for the next 15 seconds of him beating his girlfriend and saying if you didn't behave like that then i wouldn't

have to do this um and top guy yeah he's been arrested and accused of sexual human trafficking cases he's moved to Romania and said numerous times in interviews that he's done that because the laws around like sexual assault are very different he runs something called hustler's university which is literally a pyramid scheme right it's an MLM so he starts at the top and he's like gets people to join the program and or he did get people to join the program because it's the other part of my good is that it's currently been shut down according to the guardian so I don't know what where we'll be out by the time this comes out. But he basically

have it where you've got members could join. So you'd start, you'd join it. And if I was a member and I got Alex and Daisy to sign up, I would get 50% of their referral fees. And the way that people are signing up, getting people to sign up is literally taking his most inflammatory clips on social media and then putting them on their own social media.

So they'll take podcast things. So very often he'll say some relatively reasonable things. within an interview but then at one point he will also say if you want a woman you've got to again sorry trigger warning for the next 15 to 30 seconds you've got to grab her by the neck you choke her slap her fuck her whatever and he's like explains like how to get girls but it's always in the context of violence he believes that women owned by men he's like that in that clips gone round of him saying that he believes his sister belongs to her husband like so these clips go around right so I've actually my good and my bad is just like a commentary on this because

It was announced Friday gone by, so like 10 days ago, that he was removed by Facebook. And I put up a video explaining why this isn't a freedom of speech issue, because it was the same thing when Donald Trump got removed from social media. Everybody says, oh, you can't, you can't do this. It's like the curbing of freedom of speech, we should be very scared.

But I don't believe that to be the case. And I basically made this video saying freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom of consequences, first of all. But mostly, we've never had free. of speech on social media and we they've never claimed to give it to us they've always had community guidelines policies whatever and i my account has broken community guidelines numerous times in my opinion completely unfairly like i've been shadow banned which they claim isn't a thing but it's totally a thing for um sexual solicitation when i've literally done like nothing like

brittany spires is naked on instagram the playboy account has got bare asses everywhere kendall jenna's put up like nude images and I've had my account removed like it's targeted shit like I don't care what they say and they say it's due to the amount of times I'm reported but I don't believe that I've been reported more than Britney Spears or Andrew Tate but anyway that's a conversation for another day the point is they've been policing certain people and certain groups for a very long time so it was really fucking stinky that we were being police that women were being police done for bullying like la la la let me explain got done for saying that men are trash like they nearly took her account away over that.

It's insane. Insane. So they were like fully targeting feminist accounts whilst letting platforms sharing Andrew Tate propaganda got bigger and bigger.

So the point in my video was to say, this isn't a freedom of speech thing. We've never had freedom of speech. If they're going to police us they have to police him and that's a good step. TikTok obviously haven't taken it and that's what really scares me.

Sorry, I've really gone on a thing about Andrew Tate here. But I think good that finally people are sitting up and paying a attention but my bad for the week is the response that I've had has been really sad like I've had some men some women defending him being like oh well everything you've said it's like allegations and it's all from clips and I think a lot of people are saying this like if you actually listen to what he says he's not that bad it's just the clips that are really bad and it's like don't scramble so hard to defend this guy because I actually don't give a shit about Andrew

at all. What I care about is the clips because the clips are the dangerous thing because that's the propaganda that's going out and getting into like earworms into like young boys at school and like all over the place teachers in America and the UK are saying they're noticing a huge rise in misogyny. Female teachers aren't being respected. Like I've heard some so many teachers in my DM saying that they're really struggling with their kids treating them badly because of what they've seen. Like my friend had to have a conversation. with her stepson because he started like idolizing Andrew Tate like it's been really scary and then some of the comments I had on the video were like killing me from like teenage boys like

Andrew Tate taught us how to be a real man like he's given us the confidence like we've had we've had no role models and finally we have a king and it's like fucking like if you're not scared then you're not paying attention but that's the scary thing is the amount of followers and the huge, I mean, he has been taken off TikTok, you know. No, has he? Yeah, I'm pretty sure. The thing that's good, it's like, yeah, okay, he goes. Deplatformed.

But the videos keep circling, right. And the amount, like, he had millions of followers. 4.2 million on Instagram. Tons of millions of followers. And that is so scary because that's indicative of an appetite for his views. Well, that's it. That's what Matt, Matt, I can't pronounce his surname because it's confusing because it's XIV.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I thought it was always fix, is it not? No, no, no, no, me too. Yeah, which has thrown me for a loop. Anyway, their Instagram is amazing. And I've learned notes, but they put up a post saying, like, the thing that basically, like, Andrew Tate is a symptom of a problem. Totally.

And we need to be much more concerned. Like, rather than being concerned about this one specific symptom, we need to be concerned about the world that we've created where men are so scared of their own mental health. that there's just this much anger and like I know we touched on it last week no outlet to process their emotions or to literally have feelings

you know Andrew Tate puts up things saying like he won't fraternise with anybody that drinks that doesn't like sparkling water because if you can't handle the bubbles then you're a pussy and it's like lull but also like genuinely what is that teaching people

like men that they have to to like suffer. Spockling water is incredibly stressful. Like if you're a man listening to this and you struggle with bubbling water, you're not a pussy. You're a human. You just don't like sparkling water.

It tastes like TV static. It's weird. It's horrible. It's an assault on the senses. It's just a lot. And it says like I like it when it's flavored, like dash water. Love that.

Same. But when it's just water that's bubbly, it just doesn't make sense. It's very overwhelming. So yeah, I don't know. I just, I think. Yeah. And then some people said to me as well, like,

oh, you shouldn't be drawing attention to him. Like, you know, he likes it. He likes people saying his name. I don't give a fuck what he likes. Who cares? Parents need to know what their kids are looking at. Yeah. Like, and I really feel strongly.

We are in such a weird situation now where for the first time parents are living in a world, that their kids are living in a world, but their parents do not know and have not visited. And it's like that's. mad like that's absolutely crazy where kids are doing things and they are way more competent at tech and at this navigating an entire world than their parents are and parents just turning a blind eye and going he he like they're just learning funny dances they are not like they are literally being like indoctrinated into hate and you've got to pay attention to what they're doing young siblings cousins whatever and like thank thank god instagram and TikTok have done something and

removed him but it's scary as well the other side of that like him going underground and yeah what that means for a more does that like allow for more radicalization i don't know it's just scary but yeah that's true as well yeah because a lot of people said oh it's better he's in plain sight but i'm like i don't think so because yeah it's terrifying to think what he could be doing on the dark web but it's like we can't get to a place where we're mainstreaming that level of misogyny exactly and and he's doing it in plain sight but that also means he will be doing some of it underground as well so it's but yeah I don't think there's obviously like no right answer apart from like put him in prison yeah and look at the world that we've created that

that a man like that can rise to fame such prominence yeah for having these shocking yeah really because most people you think like I think we've talked about him a lot but like my brother's like this guy's a fucking weirdo like this guy this guy sucks like he just sucks and it's like in my head I'm like, well, that's what men think. You know, the men that I know think he's a fucking fruit loop. But then somehow there are these other millions of men. And a lot of them came up in my comment section, you know, like with their kids in their profile pictures.

I just took a look on TikTok now. I just typed in Andrew Tate because I wanted to see if he had actually gone. And literally everything that comes up is like free the king, free Tate, male empowerment. Yeah. There's just, there is a lot of support for him. It's so scary. Anyway. So that's my good and my bad.

That's your good and your bad. It's been a lot. My bad on a much less serious note is that I decided to cut my hair again. Because the fringe I got last time wasn't a proper fringe. It was like a grown-up fringe, Gringe or a maxi-fringe, Minge, whichever you want to call it. But I decided it wasn't short enough and I wanted to go for it properly. So me and my mum kind of hacked away with kitchen scissors. And it is so short.

Like I said to my mom specific, and my mom has history with this, like she's done this a lot before. She's cut our hair with disastrous consequences. Some of them. This is your fault. I am not gonna listen to you, blame your mom. Oh my God, it's totally my fault.

But she hammered me down. Justice for Norma. So much that I was like, do you know what, fucking let's just cut my hair. So we did, and it's so short. My fringe is like well above the eye. Wasn't supposed to be like that. Right, well, I'm confused because when you sat down

at breakfast this morning, I said, Your hair looks so good. I think it is really nice. It's just not what I was expecting. Also he sat down for dinner yesterday with Dave and he was like, I didn't tell him because I knew that he'd be like, why the fuck would you like,

my mom got your hair? You know that that doesn't go well because it never does for any of us. Or boyfriend, she's tried out as well with terrible consequences. Anyway, I sat down for dinner and he was like, have you done something to your hair? And I was like, maybe why?

And he was like, it's shorter, isn't it? Yeah. And he said, quote unquote, I much preferred it when it was longer. Can you believe he said that? I was like, I can't believe you've said that. And then he started to backtrack it. He's like, no, no, no, it looks really great now. It's just that I really liked him. And I was like, no, no, no, you said what you said. And I know that's what you meant. I was like, how rude. I was like, why say that to someone who, they can't just go and get the hair back? I can't just go and clip it back on. It's gone. I've got this tiny little

tuft of a fringe. You can't then just say, like, no, I don't know, it's longer. Great. Give me three months and then maybe you'll like it again. But you don't like it. Prick. No, but I didn't express that to him. So he had no right. No right. But maybe he thought you liked it and then his opinion didn't matter.

You know what you can see. I watched him say it and then be like literally he's like started to at the end of it. He was like when it was longer. And I was like, yeah, he fucking burnt Peter out. You prick. So I have some thoughts on your hair. I think it looks really nice. I'm fragile.

Please. Please just be nice. I think it looks really nice because we, Daisy and I both said when you sat down, your hair looks really nice. Thank God you did because I was feeling so horrible about it. The longer I look at it, I can see the two fringes. I can see the fringe and the minge as two separate things. The fringe does not meet the mings. The fringe does not meet the minge.

There is a definite, there's a definite sort of should have been graded. Yeah. Yeah, there's no, there's no like, hey, nice to meet you. you, it's just like a fringe minge. Fringe, yeah. There was no foreplay there, like, no one's eased it in. Yeah, so I do, I can see. So sorry. I don't think it's going to take much.

Do you not think? No, I think you're going to need a couple of weeks. Maybe your hairdresser. Yeah, I think you might need a hairdresser. But literally, just to go into the minge a tiny bit and just take half an inch off the front minge so that it's more like a gentle slope. Yeah, there you go. gentle sloak.

I thought you're going to say, I'm not touching the tough. No, fuck, no, you've got no one to take off that. They are short enough. They look lovely. I think it makes it look younger. I think you look, I think you look very pretty. I just think you just need a bit hacked into the minge. Yeah, I just need, it just needs a bit of work.

I'm going to say if my little sister will let me share a picture of her. She was going to L.A. And my mom was like, come here, I'm going to cut your hair, right? And my sisters have so much hair, which is unbelievable looking at me. But they've got so much hair, like absolute mains. And my mom cut here. The twins. and she cut it, I don't know how to explain it,

but basically the fringe lasted to like almost at the end of the side of her hair. Like it went all the way around because I think mum was just like, I'm into this, I don't know where to stop. So she just carried on and on and on. I think hairdressers should do a psych evaluation before you're allowed to get a fringe cut. I think you should go in on the month. If you're going to have a fringe cut,

like you've got an appointment on Wednesday. If you want the fringe, you've got to go in on Monday and say, I really want the fringe. And they say, okay, if you still feel like this on Wednesday. fuck it a week before and if you still feel it you still feel like that then they find they'll cut the fringe but you need not to be drunk not to be heartbroken and just sound pretty rational because i have had two fringes cut in my life and both times i completely shouldn't have been allowed i was not in the right frame of mind one of them i got done on my sisters my sister had an amazing fringe like

yeah but it was upkeep man she's got curly hair like we both have like just you know unruly hair Yeah. And she, fuck, she worked at it. It looked so good. Yeah. But we never talked about how hard she had to work at it. I just saw how good it looked. And on her 18th birthday, we went in for her hair cut together and I was like, fuck it.

I'll get a fringe. Got a fringe. Not only was she devastated because the fringe was her thing, which didn't occur to me, but fair enough, actually. But it was the worst thing that I've ever had because I went to her 18th birthday party that night, sweated, it went curly. I looked like a fucking idiot. and I never wore my fringe down. Not once.

I had a headband on for about a year and a half. It was so stupid. And then before that, I got one done when I was 12 by my mum's hairdresser called Heather. And I don't think she was actually, looking at what she did, I don't understand how she had a salon and scissors, like, legally.

But she'd cut my fringe, and it was so bad. And I remember going to the hairdressers after us, and she was like, you've got a cow slick. Who cut you a fringe? I was like, it was my mum's hairdress. I called her hair that. And she was like, well, you never should have had that.

Oh, I know. And I hated it. So why did I go back at 18 still? Got a Cowlick and tried to do it again. I wasn't 18. I'm five years old. I was 23. It was so stupid.

It was so stupid. It just shouldn't be allowed to cut people's fringes. And like, never on a rash decision. Both times, I was like, fuck it. Let's have a frown. I know. I know. I know.

No. No. Just don't do it. Come back in seven days. And if you still feel this way, we'll talk about the fringe. What's your awkward? It literally just happened. outside and I'm actually really delighted that none of you noticed but it's just like it's actually

speaks to like who I am as a person and I realize these awkward things happen it means that something will happen this will happen once or twice or maybe three times a day yeah um so you know that it's like super bad luck to walk on three manhole covers yeah I saw you do that avoid that yeah so you can't walk on not only do can you not walk on three it's good luck to walk on two wait can I just can I guess you're awkward yeah because I look back and I was like that's only a two grid and I went to specifically me to walk on it. Yeah, yeah, two's a good luck. Oh, no, I thought you avoided it. No, I avoid the threes and I step on the twos. But the one you avoided, I swear it was a two, no? Why would I avoid? No, I went out of my way to step on a two and as I got there, I realized that I basically

walked into the way of the nice elderly man who just, so I was walking directly behind you two, you were in the middle of the street, selfish bitches, okay? You moved to the right, the two of you, this elderly man moved to his right my left yeah i didn't care what you two were doing because i saw good luck on the street and i was like got to go i need good energy sounds like you're the selfish bitch so i went like you can't help you've got to follow the chakras or whatever okay so i was just i was led by a higher power to the two manholes and i went over there on the left and i stepped but it literally looked like to this old man who was already confused probably by you two because you're minge and he was probably was thrown off by your minge no i don't know he was

It's just a bit, you know, anyway, he just stepped on the left. I literally must have looked like I just stepped into his path way. But I was like, I've committed now. And I want to step on both of them because it only stepped in the first. So I kept going towards him in his, like, very much towards him. So I literally dodged him by like, like, I was like, hop skip. Like, yeah, to the left, dunk, dunk, like hop scotch forwards. And then slid back out to the right again.

And he was literally looked to me like, what the fuck just happened? Why have you darted onto my path in front of me and then last minute taking a right hand turn to get away? I just, I always will go out of my way to step on two or not step on three. Yeah. And I will 100% be inconveniencing people left, right and centre with that. Because it is, yeah, it is inconvenient,

especially on London roads. Yeah, so inconvenient. And I've got boo-ah, she can't step on three either because I don't want her having bad luck and I need her to step on two because I want her to have good luck so I go boo, he's got to come with me. Alex doesn't seem to care.

He's just so cavalier with it. He's just such big feet. He's like, oh, I won't step on three and then he doesn't really look where he's going and he'll put his foot on one. And I'm like, well, we have to do something to counterbalance this now because you've just stepped on a three manhole cover.

And he's like, well, not really. I only just stepped on the corner. I was like, it doesn't matter. Yeah. The gods aren't listening to you. It's stepped on the corner. What they're seeing is a blatant disregard

for the superstitions that dictate this world and they're going to smite you so now we have to fix this for the good of the family so we got good luck today is that right well I did and you guys didn't do you didn't do

I'm going to have a great day I don't know about you but yeah I did it inconvenience that old man my awkward is that I went to cinema yesterday with my mom I was really excited

we're going to see fishermen friends which is actually really good it's a sequel and the first one was so good really good film I was really looking forward to it sat down we went to that

really boozy cinema, you know, the Everyman, where they give you, like, sofas, like it's like a proper seat that you sit on. You walk in and they're just like, put your arms out. Ah, two or three-seater. No, you sit on sofas on there, it's so comfy. Anyway, I was really looking forward to it. I bought popcorn, love it, love having popcorn in cinema.

Salty. Combination. Combination, obviously. And, you know, tickets are expensive, especially to that cinema, very, very, very, fucking expensive not like the good old days of the odian your local odian we'd be like four quid at push do you remember you know the snacks now cost more than the tickets oh yeah it's obscene ridiculous and the tickets are still like 20 it's like 28 pounds for like two adults so expensive

why has this come up so many times today i've already complained about the price of the elvis thing yeah so it got there sat down my big bucket of popcorn it started playing they were singing a song start playing and I was like oh my god I'm so looking forward to this and I'm so looking forward to my popcorn anyway next thing I knew mum was like tapping me and I was like fuck what and I woke up and the credits were rolling

and I'd missed the entire film I'd fallen fast asleep and I hadn't stood at any one point I didn't even know I was asleep I was just completely gone my popcorn had been uneaten it was still sad Did you take it home with you? I obviously did I took it home with me I had at the car

I was like anyway so Yeah, that's actually a bit devastating. I was like, that's the most expensive sleep I've ever had. The most expensive sleep you've ever had. Actually, that's not true, because obviously you pay for a hotel so you can sleep, right? So, but a most expensive nap. Yeah, that's a very expensive nap I've ever taken. That's huge.

Also, I was genuinely looking forward to the film. It's such a good premise. Clearly not. Clearly not. Sat down, I was so excited to watch the film. I don't know. It's the whole thing. Gone.

So. That's devastating. So, today's guest. I almost need to share the texts that you sent me about this interview about this interview being locked in because I was just minding my business and I think I said it in last week's episode I was like one of the things I admire

and find quite frustrating about Alex's like her like just when she's working it's like the hardest working person you've ever met in your whole entire life and but it's like really sporadic time so sometimes it's like at a reasonable time like a Monday a afternoon and then sometimes it's like a Sunday at like 7 a.m. Okay, I have to point out that earlier on on that weekend day, you messaged me about a guest.

I did, yeah. Look, Alex, there's one thing we know about me. Okay. It's that I'm a total hypocrite. Yeah, but it's so alarming, right? When you're just minding your own business and you're an anxious person with me anyway, and you just get a screen grab with the letters, OMFG in capitals. And then the emoji of the blue forehead with the yellow bottom half and the mouth open and the hands on it.

the side of the cheeks going, oh, and I literally was like, who the fuck has died? And then I just get ducking hell from you. And then you go, I feel sick with excitement. Capital. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. It was like, bloody hell.

To be fair, it was a lot for a Saturday. It was huge, yeah, to be fair. But I shared an America's next top model clip. And it was with a woman called Keenia Hill. I don't know if you guys remember her. She was from Cycle 4. cycle because they remember they called them cycles not seasons and she basically had had the piss taken out of her throughout the season for like putting on weight and being

bigger than the other girls I have to say I can't see that she was bigger than the other girls but there we go and she did a shoot they were all dressing up as animals and they obviously they put her as the elephant and she had a slightly visible stomach like again I can't see that but her stomach wasn't concave essentially and Tyra said to her. It's all about choices, Kenya. Like, take the half off your burger. Have a, eat a burger and take the bun off. Like, it's about the choices. Like, I just have to, you just have to make it work. Anyway, I shared this clip. And then Kenya herself, actually DM me. I shout myself as was indicated in the message. By my text at M, shout myself. And I was like, please come on the

podcast to talk about this. So she agreed. She agreed. She agreed. Miraculously. And I did some very flustered arranging of like, M, can you do this time on Tuesday? Let's make it work, let's make it work. So here's Kenya. And we're excited to talk to her about her, about body image and the effect that being on America's Next Top Model had on body image for not just her,

but all of the other contestants as well, because as we know, it was a really, really toxic show that did have a lot of negative ramifications. So it was a, yeah, it was a really interesting interview and we're excited to hear what you all think about it. here's Kenya Hill enjoy Hi, hi Kenya It's so surreal to see you here

And be talking to you Because I remember you so clearly From America's next time model And I just have to say to everyone listening And you will see the video as well But Kenya is so fucking stunning Literally you came on the Zoom call And I was like I should have made more effort

I feel like a bag of shit I agree Not at all Not at all, but thank you so much. Alex, we've let ourselves down. We've let, like, England down. Like, when we logged on the Zoom, I was like, well, if it makes you feel any better,

I have been up for five hours doing hair and makeup, if that makes you feel any better. It really actually does. It's amazing. Yeah, you do look amazing. It's been one hour. It takes me a good hour to, like, take my time, apply a little lash. That's what's going on here.

But I appreciate that. Thank you. Gorgeous. So, Kenya, you and I connected, actually just this weekend gone, when I shared a viral tweet, and the viral tweet read, Were you a child in the early 2000s listening to Tyra Banks call women who were 5 foot 10 and 115 pounds plus size? If so, you may be entitled to financial compensation.

Made me laugh a lot, but also rang so fucking true because I remember the show, I obsessed over the show. I watched every single episode. And there was so much fat shaming. Not that I knew what that was at the time. Like, that just felt very normal. But what I did remember is I remembered your bit when you were dressed as the elephant. And then you had a tummy.

And I'm putting that in air quotes. And when I was thinking about what I wanted to put behind the tweet, I was like that, that moment, because it was just so shocking to me. Anyway, that was, that was you. That was you who was being like body shamed and fat shamed in that. And then you got in touch with me after seeing the post. And as we just discussed before we came on, I literally shout myself.

And I was like, oh my fucking God. You don't believe it. You believe in message. And you know what? I'm used to these messages from Alex that come at like incredible. And we send them to each other. I'm just as guilty. Like so intense.

Such veracity. No concept for the other's time. No boundaries. Or what we could be doing or the fact we could be giving each other a heart attack when she does it. And she just, it was like capital letters like, oh, MFG, I am going to die. And I was like, this could be so good or it could be so bad.

And I'm always so scared to open the messages in case. Because I'm like, I just don't know what I'm going to get. But this is the best. Yeah. It was exciting. So you were a contestant, obviously, on America's Next Top Model in 2005. Yes. Is that right?

And on cycle four. Mm-hmm. Yes. I was 19. I left college. Like, I had a full scholarship. I'm a complete nerd. So I was in school.

I wanted to be a doctor. And so I was made a major in biology. And I just had this huge, huge passion to, like, be on the runway. I was actually made fun of really badly in junior high and partly into high school before I, because I was a late bloomer. And so when I had the opportunity to go on top model, I just, I left everything and did the show. Yeah. I bet. It was such a big deal as well that show, though, wasn't it? I mean, it was a huge deal in the UK as well. So I imagine it was just like phenomenal over there. Like everyone was obsessed. It was actually just starting to become a thing when I did it. I mean, we were one of the very first like competition reality shows ever. The only other shows at the time that I remember were like the real world and maybe Big Brother for something. things like that but we were like one of the first like competition shows it was like really really unique at the time um and then the producers were like you guys are going to be famous this is

like a huge thing and we're like yeah right but i personally did the show to compete i am very very competitive and i just thought i can do this i had no idea that it was going to uh be people all over the world watching like i had no idea had you watched the seasons gone by like the seasons before. I did. And it was crazy because I was a freshman in college and I would watch it and I used to get goosebumps when the show, do you remember like want to be on top that whole like drama behind her like theme song? And I used to just get goosebumps and I just to tell myself like, I want to do this. Like I really think that I would do this. But I wanted to do it to compete, not necessarily to be on TV. I wanted to

get on and because I felt like I understood modeling so much. Had you modeled beforehand? I had done a couple of like local runway shows and by local I mean like bikini shows at a club like a nightclub for a designer is like doing something and so yeah extremely local

but not anything like really legitimate. Okay. Okay. So your expectations of America's Next Top Model and going into it and the reality of America's Next Top Model were those two things very different? You know, I, nobody's ever asked me that question before. That's such a good question. It's also a big question. Yeah, big, big question. Because I was, I had never done anything on TV before. So I didn't know, I really didn't know what to expect. I just was so excited to be there. And I was really grateful for the experience.

So I had like a blast. Some of the girls, a lot of women actually who've gone on this show, have had a different experience. But for me, I was just happy to be there. I'm just like one of those kind of people. So the only things that were really different were like when Tyra would actually pop up and surprise us or the fact that panel was, you know, like the elimination was like actually a room in the house, in the same house. I always thought that that was like a location that we drive to that's like separate and it's like this whole thing. No, it's behind the kitchen.

And so it was like there were certain like things like that that were. were very different. Of course, like, there being a huge camera crew always around. Like, it's the same number of people on the camera crew as girls there are in the house. So you don't see that when you go. And so you're mic, we're miced up 24-7. Yeah, so there were, of course, little things that were a surprise. But by the second or third elimination, my head was in the game.

I would like, no, I have to win this. I have to. How did you, like, end up applying for it? Did you do it on your own or did you, like, tell people that you were going to do it? Because I wonder, like, so many people must have applied. So many people, tens and thousands of girls auditioned for my cycle. And I was living in L.A., which, like, every girl in L.A. thinks she's a model.

And so there were just, like, tons of girls. But I actually sent in an audition tape first. And this was literally a VHS, like, I'm telling my age now, VHS thing that I had to, like, borrow from, like, the editing, filming thing on campus, the editing room or whatnot. And so I had to film my runway walk and send them a few photos. And I did not make that, did not make the first time I auditioned at all. And then that same summer, they said they were doing a live audition. and if you think you have what it takes to be America's Next Top Model

come into the live audition and it was like an entire day of an experience. It was crazy. But I definitely, I felt like I got a look from one of the main casting directors at the very end. She just gave me this look as though I made it.

She just Michelle Mock, she was one of the main casting directors. She gave me a little look of approval so that was that was fun yeah the process was crazy in general it was crazy yeah yeah i really want to know the impact that going on the show had on your body image because i imagine going into it you didn't expect half of the things that came out of it in the way of you being body shamed because there was quite a lot there was a lot and it was it felt very targeted towards you in your cycle it was like the the whole thing was that you were like gaining all this weight and I do

have to say like I can't I still looking back cannot see any weight that was actually anywhere on you but the whole like storyline was you're gaining this way and like the they would show you it felt like they would show you eating rather than any of the other contestants and then they dressed you up as the elephants you know they said like everyone you know I've I can't remember who it was that one of the judges that said, I've picked an animal that represents, you know, all of you and you were the elephant. And then they had to, like, Photoshop your stomach.

Yeah. It was intense, right? Well, it wasn't even just that. Before we went to Africa, they had given us the seven deadly sins, and they gave me gluttony. Right. By the time we did get to Africa, I believe this was after the elephant shoot,

we had to do a like a caress scene and they knew at that point that my storyline had become my weight so they intentionally I remember the stylist saying no we have to like show her stomach we have to roll up her shirt

we have to give her some kind of crop situation to show where she has gained weight and so just to like back it up a little bit you know, I am literally 5 foot 11. And at the time probably did weigh around 120 or so. Before going on America's next top model, I was actually made fun of for being so slim. Right. And for not being early, not having boobs, not having a booty. So I felt like, okay, modeling is going to be the one place where I am accepted for being like tall and slim.

And so at my age, at that time, my metabolism, I was able to kind of eat whatever I wanted. And I guess just due to the stress of the show or whatnot, I did gain probably like two pounds. Oh my God. Yeah, it's two pounds. Yeah. It's nothing. Right? Two or three pounds. And so I typically gain weight like in my tummy area. So it's just not going to be as tight. You know what I mean? But at that point, I'm only 19 and I am stress eating and also I just like to eat in general like I like food how dare you

how could you want to eat and I just feel like I felt like at the time now I'm not skinny enough when I watch the show now because I've rewatched an episode about this a couple of months ago doing something with a YouTuber and I was

so skinny still I was so so so slim and And like when I was in the competition, it really didn't bother me as much. But it was going home and watching them edit this storyline and this narrative and see how people are now reacting and responding to me. For a long time, it made me a little bit self-conscious about eating in public or eating if I know that fans of the show are around and have seen it. oh well yeah there she is there she she's eating you know and then also to you know come out of the industry and feel as though it it was kind of true because in New York because right after

the show I just moved to New York and just started modeling right away a lot of the agencies were like you need to lose more weight and I was already so slim because trust me, after we filmed the show and I knew that it was going to air, I went and got a personal trainer and did nothing but cardio, like hours of cardio, barely did any, you know, muscle training, which is like what I'm all about now. So I was already super slim and for agencies to say, oh, well, you should totally just eat Caesar salads and have your dress your dressing on the side and just that breakfast, lunch, and dinner just have Caesar salads. Like literally an agent told me that. I'm not going to say the name of the agency or anything, but it was horrible.

It was a horrible. And for a long time after moving to New York, I just was trying to be as slim as possible. And it didn't help that I was in the house with, I was in a model house with all of these other models who were like 16. So they were naturally just a zero. They were all so much slimmer than I naturally was at 19. And at 19, I was still very slim, you know what I mean? And yeah, I was in a house with other runway models as well. So everyone was above 5 foot 9.

And so then I finally, you know, started to develop, because my mom has always been in the gym. My mom is like in great shape. And I've just always been in the gym. It's just kind of my target and my goal kind of changed after America's next time, mom's just being really slim. And now, you know, I'm 36 now and I have just such a healthier relationship with the gym, with food,

balance for myself. And it has taken a lot of work on myself. You know, I have my own post-coaching business now called Five July where I teach aspiring models, everything they need to know in order to get signed by modeling agency. I show them how to pose and all of that. But more importantly, I'm here for them as a mentor so that they can have really true confidence and have a really thick skin for the modeling industry because my intention was for them to have a tough skin for the industry. But now in general, you have to have a tough skin because of just social media. It's so true. Were you aware of the narrative that they were creating? You said like you were kind of more aware of it when you got home and you watched it back that they were like

basically making, creating this storyline for you that was so focused around food and weight gain. did you feel it like when you were in there or was it just were you just sort of busy like competing yeah when they gave me gluttony I couldn't tell I just thought okay well they have seven sins and whatever but by the time they gave me the elephant I was like out of all the elephant in the world you're going to give me like the largest one I also at 19 um I just was not in the mind space to say to them or say in a confessional like you guys are giving me this narrative and like I'm still slim and that's also why these people cast teenagers people who maybe don't have like the life experience to pick up for themselves or to understand what's really

going on it also didn't feel I don't know if this is fair to say but it didn't feel like an environment that was conducive to the contestants being able to stand up for themselves or sort speak their minds or advocate for themselves it felt very much like if you do that you're out like models are to be seen, not heard, and you don't cross this line. It was, I mean, this is not really pertaining to body image at all, but the episode, the caress episode where the dancer was dancing on me and was like sexually harassing me, basically, on set. Long story short for people who hadn't seen an episode, there was an African, like,

model dancer who was hitting on me the entire time. time I was in hair and makeup and saying he's going to come to America and find me and he wanted to take me out and I just kept turning him down. I'm like super focused at this point. And when we got on set, their job was to like dance around me and he got uncomfortably close and he had an erection and was like moaning and like I felt like I was being molested in front of everybody, like in front of all of these people. It was horrible. So I thought, let me stand up for myself. That was a moment where I was for sure. Like I'm not going to a lot of this.

And we stand up for myself. And then I got bashed for that. You know, like, oh, you're being a diva. You stopped the entire production. And I just was like, wow, I thought this was something that Tyra would do. I thought that this is commendable. Yeah. It's a commendable thing.

That's crazy. That's great. Anytime I have these conversations, I have like realizations about why I am the way and that I am today had so much to do with that and why I'm so passionate about girls being confident in themselves and not comparing themselves so much because I had no idea that like even in like the comments there are so many girls that saw that episodes and they thought wow if she is overweight and I must look like fucking horrible you know yeah and but also so painful for you you

You went from being, what, bullied for being too thin. Yeah. I went from being, you know, too thin, not having enough ass, to know you're not slim enough, you know. And now with the Kardashians and everything, it's like you got to be super curvy and have a big juicy booty and like, you know, all of these things. um and i i am i absolutely love myself in my body now um i just really feel for um younger people i am so glad that there was no such thing as instagram when i was in high school yeah well you're only comparing yourselves to the other girls you find beautiful at your high school or in your neighborhood yeah imagine not imagine that's what's going on now now it's like

you're in high school and you are comparing yourself, or junior high school even, comparing your beauty that hasn't even developed yet to all the most beautiful people in the world. And then it's not even real at that. Everyone's, you know, retouched and facetuned and like filtered to death. It's so interesting, though, like I think in so many ways, it's horrendous now with social media is what it is for all the reasons that you've just said. But I think something that's really interesting is like in 2005, like so many of us watched you being treated so badly and watched so many instances like that on TV where it's like, where somebody, you know, will, the idea

that you were plus, that will I think, and it was one of the first times I'd even heard like plus size of the category. And even then, and I was literally, I'm young. I was 11 in 2005 and I will have watched that and it's like there is so much of this that you internalize and without social media and without anybody telling you you know like Alex's account so amazing there are so many accounts like this newspaper articles now that call this shit out but you watched that as a kid and we did watch this stuff like I loved this stuff and there's no one to tell you that this isn't right it was just like Tyra's rules are the rules and these are the rules And it was like, fuck, like, and it was, it wasn't ever really for us watching.

It wasn't even about you or what you looked like because all we could see was ourselves reflected back. Do you know what I mean? And I think those are the comments that you're seeing now, you know, that we've seen now, people just saying that's what I felt like. If she's, if she's too big, then what am I? Because, like you say, you were so slim. And so in lots of ways it is horrendous. But then look at what you're doing now.

Look at pages like Alexes. Look at the way the conversation has changed. Look at what Lizzo is doing. Like there is so much like magic and celebration of women in other shit. So maybe it's going to be better. Yeah. I feel like 2000s were so brutal. They were so brutal.

Yeah. And I feel like America's next top model like influenced that for so, so many girls. Because like you've both said, like looking at it. And I remember Robin as well. I don't know what, I can't remember what cycle she was from, but do you remember her? Robin, she was like plus size, but Janice just continued to call her fat and disgusting and like get her off. She shouldn't be here. She's this, she's that. And this girl was so slim, like, so slim. And she was beautiful. She was beautiful. Like, right. I actually just recently saw a few clips of that. And it's just, and I think she was older. I think she was able to. us to speak up for herself a little bit more. Yeah, I just can't, I mean that, like, for us

sort of like watching it and witnessing it, it like helped, along with a lot of other stuff, kind of helped inform our beliefs around our bodies. But I can't imagine for the girls on there, like you and the other contestants, I can't imagine how brutal

that must have been and then how deeply that runs in then how you come to see your body. Because it must have been for the other girls as well. even for the girls that weren't mocked for their weight as you were. They must have been like, or like seeing how you were being treated and being like terrified that that was going to be, you know, that was going to happen to them as well. And it must have just been, yeah, savage.

Yeah, I mean, you would think that these people who are so much older than us, Tyra was so much older than all of us, Janice, Nigel, these people are full on adults. And you would think that they would maybe have been a little bit more careful with how we may psychologically be affected by things. Now, granted, the only benefit of the doubt I do give the show is that at that time, the fashion world, it was at a place of heroin chic. like that was the look still very much so the look to be super super skinny and I don't know if you if you guys have like ever seen a runway model in person but it is a it is and this is obviously not to body shame anyone who is who is super duper slim but it is such a specific body type to aspire to have that so many of us naturally cannot get to in a healthy way.

The only way to get there would be in an unhealthy way. And so everything that the show was saying was backed up by the actual industry when I left and went to New York. So it's not like this show created some kind of exaggeration of what the industry would be. It was pretty accurate. It's pretty accurate. Doesn't mean that it was right because now look at all of these brands and companies changing to body positivity, accepting even LGBT or androgynous looking models and makeup companies wanting to include every shade now when there have been this myriad of shades forever. it's like okay you guys welcome to the party like we've we've all been here yeah you know like we all need this representation so I'm glad that things are finally you know moving along the beauty market is is naturally just going to be something that women look to sorry to jump around but

just because you'd been studying to like go and be a doctor and then you kind of like sacked it all and you're like by I'm going to go be America's next step model which is so good like that is probably the bravest thing that I can't think of anything personally more terrifying than going to one of those auditions um but that's by the by what when you came back and like when you said you were going what kind of happened to your personal life like with your family and your friends and stuff did they were they like super supportive and then when you came out were they still kind of your crew or did you have to just sort of like put everything on pause and just go and like model that's a good

question so when I the reason why I even left school to audition or go on the show was because I always had this like passion to do runway always always always wanted to do that um but I naturally did like school as well. But I figured I can always go back to school. Like this modeling career from what I knew at the time that, you know, there's not much longevity in a modeling career. This is a time for me to go pursue my modeling dreams, see what happens. And if not, just go back to school. Like, I think my scholarship, I had a full scholarship. I had a full ride. Like, I think it's still stand. And so, yeah, that was that. And then in terms of my family they supported me like all the way my mom especially like because my mom is beautiful and

she used to model and she's just like an amazing supporter you know um and then in terms of like my friend groups and stuff because I was made fun of for so long once people were finding out that I did this show it made me not want to have these fake friends so I just moved to New York and just kind of relocated and found a new base of friends. I just wanted to explore. I definitely encourage this as a side note for anyone who wants to like go to school, travel for school or go explore a different city, like go do it because even if you're in an already in a big city, like go explore something else.

You're going to learn so much more about yourself and other cultures and other ways of living if you um spread your wings a little bit i like i always kind of advocate for that so when you went to new york like after the show you had to keep going and pit and not pitching um auditioning right for like more how does it you go yeah so does it hold an audition like when you go and what do you do so you have to be signed by a modeling agency okay so this is what i do with my business I showed all you know how your mind went like well how do you even get into that how do you do that this is what I show my my lightkeepers my my model students um so you have to have a portfolio built you in the back in the day you had to have a portfolio built and then you have to be

signed to a modeling agency in order to even get to castings or else you're not going to find like the really big casting jobs. And so I actually had a hard time signing with an agency because so many of the agencies were like, this is how it works. When you sign with an agency, you either need to be an established working girl who has a portfolio full of print jobs and campaigns and stuff from actual magazines or be a completely new face. I was neither. I had been on everybody's TV set and also didn't have any modeling work. All my modeling work was done on this weird fake show. So a lot of the girls, we had a really tough time with finding representation

because the people just viewed us as reality people, like reality stars. And so some of us went on. A lot of girls just quit after doing this show. But I, yeah, I stuck to it. I, you know, eventually got signed and have traveled. I've done, you know, fashion week shows in Paris, Milan, London. Can I ask how, like, that process was compared to doing it on the show? Like, when you go and, like, put yourself out there in front of, like, agents and stuff

and probably the people that are telling you just to eat, like, a steed-a-sadler with no dressing for, like, breakfast, lunch and dinner, is it same, like, when you stand in front of them and try and get an agent or an agency as when you're being judged on the show? or is it completely different? That is also such a great question that no one's ever asked me. The agents in real life, they're not going to give you much at all. On top model, they have to, like, give them kind of contest to why this is wrong or that's wrong. Agents, they're looking at your portfolio to consider you for representation.

Your book is either, yes, we want you, or, no, we don't want you. That's how to be. They're not going to tell you, you should, you should, you should try. try some more pictures like this, you should, and I think that that agent who did tell me to eat more Caesar salads, that was only because the model house that I was living in, the agent who had pulled that together, he was like an agent for this agency. So the owner is the one who came. He was trying to get me to get signed with them. And the owner was saying, you need to be slimmer. And so I was like a size, just to give you context, I was like a size four and they

wanted me to be a zero. I mean, that's a lot of weight to lose and a lot, two whole dress sizes to go down. Like that's crazy. It's a lot. It is a lot. And I mean, I'm tall as hell. I am five, 11 yes that like you said like that's what the fashion industry was like at the time kind of I imagine it still is a little bit but maybe it's a it's a little bit more underground now because they can't express those views quite so openly but I wonder if you place any blame at all with Tyra and how she handled because at the end of the day it was her show and I do know that a lot of I mean she has received especially especially in more recent years, she's received so much backlash about the toxicity of that show. And I guess from watching it, the impression the viewer got was that she was like, she took you all under her wing. You were like her little sisters, but she also like gave you tough love, but it was always your best interest at heart. And I wonder if that is true or like felt true. And like, yeah, do you think any of the response?

lies with her for how you guys were treated and then and then the impact on you the contestants afterwards um well this is the only thing this is why I continue to give Tyra the benefit of the doubt because it's like it's so easy for us to pull up clips from this time period and say look how horrible they're treating these models and blah blah blah granted they probably there was definitely some destructive things that were said or, you know, editing or whatever. But it's so much harder for us to look back to Vogue Magazine, L Magazine, from 2004, 2003, or even from 1995. Like, the industry at that time was for that look. You get what I'm saying? And so there is one conversation I remember in particular that was not, was it on camera?

I don't know if it was on camera, but I think that it was, it was just Tyrant myself and she was telling me, you know, like I have an issue too with that, like with eating, like not an issue with eating, but like, I like to eat too. And I have to be really careful with, you know, when I'm eating, blah, blah, blah, because this is the industry that we want to be in. Like, this is the industry that we're in. It's unfortunate that we can't just eat anything that we want. Our bodies, you know, changed. And so that was that was definitely a heart to heart that one conversation and also the clip that you played that went with that tweet of just her trying. I think that's just her trying to be like for you to really make it in the fashion industry that I'm talking about

for like Vogue and whatever, you can't eat a burger with a bun on it. You're going to have to have the burger with the lettuce. So that's why I was. very receptive to those things because I studied those magazines. I was all about fashion. I'm still about fashion. And I got it. I'm like, I know these girls are a size zero, you know? So I think she definitely tries to have like this super relatable like big sister vibe. But I also think that it, I think it was genuine, but I also think, you know what I mean? It's not like the model the entire modeling industry was tyra's industry yeah like ira does not own these designers and the runways and the you know she just kind of saw an opportunity to like make a tv show

based off of what already existed yeah it's like don't hate the player hate the game like it's already going and she i guess to an extent and it's really perverse and like kind of sad but if she wants you to succeed as models her job is to help you succeed as models and that is how you succeeded as models so if it were just i think that if this were a real life just mentorship from tyra she would it would have been different but there are also like writers producers you know there's a whole production company so like they are going to throw in their things that i've into, they're going to do whatever they can to make this show spicy and interesting. You know what I mean? So I know that that is not all Tyra. She's not like this evil. Now, did she have control over some of these things?

Did she have, say? Maybe she did, you know, but she wasn't funding the entire thing. This was not a one-woman show, you know? Yeah, and it's true because I guess, and I think that to me is a thing that feels particularly sinister is like yes you can chalk how she spoke to you like for example saying you know you can't eat burger with a bunner you can chalk that up to her trying to prepare you for an industry that where you wouldn't be able to eat the burger with a bun which is sad by the way because a burger without the bun is really sad but the burger without the bun is literally the

stupidest thing in the whole lot I don't understand what are you a steak are you bolognese it just doesn't make any sense but I guess that the sinister thing is how it was played out on the show and how you were kind of ridiculed for being fat when you were when you were such a thin person and how like you were always shown eating I remember that distinctly like they didn't show other people eating but they showed you eating because it was your storyline that you were the one like putting on like piling on weight and at the end of the day like you said it was two to three pounds which is which I'm not surprised because I couldn't see with the like naked eye I couldn't see weight that you

you would put on. So I'm not surprised by that, but I'm also so shocked that that was made such a big deal of, like two to three pounds, you know. So, but yeah, like you said, like who knows how much say Tyra had in all that stuff. And that was definitely something like watching that back, that's what caused me to to really feel so insecure about eating in public was that everyone, it was so gullible to editing. Like, everyone, everyone, everyone's, still is even if people know things are scripted or whatever the case may be people at that time especially were so gullible to everything they saw and i was able to see they edited we once eating a bagel the same bagel like three times in a car ride like as if i just had like three

bagels oh my gosh um it's just they really were the editing was really crazy it's slightly gaslighting Like you and the audience, it's kind of like, it's kind of true. And then we're just going to kind of like make it our truth. But then it kind of fucks with your head when you get home. Because it's like, but did, like, how they spun that one thing out for so long? Or like, it's just very like reality TV and not even modeling industry, but reality TV at this time was just like. Oh, it's crazy because like I'm sure that there is probably another girl who also gained weight

or lost weight on the show. You know what I mean? But once they make something. thing like your narrative or they're giving you a reason. Also, you have to understand this. America's next top model is America's next top model. So I actually went into the show thinking that I was going to be the winner. I thought I was going to be the first black girl to win. And we were filming while season three, cycle three was airing. So I had no idea that Eva had won the third cycle. So the whole time I'm in the show, I'm like, I'm going to be the first

black girl to win. I'm going to be the first black girl to win. Later on, right, I kind of realize this show is very political. They want, if you line up, I still haven't done this, but I know, I already know, but if you line up every single winner, it is the most diverse team of women that you've ever seen like they wanted to satisfy every viewer so they third season they have the black girl then the fourth season

they have the mixed girl then they have the petite girl then they have your red head they have your plus size girl you know it is literally lined up for so there's going to be a certain process of elimination to make that winner win

yeah that's telling a story to satisfy America you'll see that everyone has a storyline I feel like any girl has the potential to win that show if they want you to win the show there's no there's no team of it's not American Idol there's no one calling in and voting there's like it's up to production wins

you know and I'm not trying I'm not trying to I'm not trying to say like oh well I didn't win because, you know, hey, like, it is what it is. I'm super happy with, you know, how the show turned out for myself. But you just never know. That's the reason why they have these storylines and why, you know, it runs the way it runs. And I think this happens with reality TV still now.

I don't know if you ever watch Love Island. It's like huge. Yeah. But I think, like, this is something that we've spoken to a few Love Islands about on the show. And it's like, when you take your own expectations of what. this show means for your life into the experience like you have something that your dream and you're going to work your best and you're going to be yourself and that's all you can give right but you have a certain expectation but then as long as there are producers involved you can be kind of

puppeted in a really like savage way so that you can live one experience no one experience like that's exactly what happened but then to the rest of the world that's not what we've seen yeah for sure um when we went to um south africa um i still get random people like hating commenting about this episode but they asked us who wanted to open nelson mandela's gel sale and the the guy giving us the tour gave the key to naima and we got inside and the guy's telling us about Nelson Mandela's story and it's like heart-wrenching and I'm crying and like just in this fully immersive experience

and when they edit it back it's like oh Kenya's upset because she didn't have the key and she didn't open the jail cell like what? Oh my God. Like that wasn't this situation at all. I was crying because I'm standing in Nelson Mandela's jail sale with his best friend telling me about him the experience, you know? It's just like one of those things where it's like, okay.

Really? Yeah, it's wild. It's wild. But I'd find that so maddening. I'd be like, I want to go back on TV and tell them all. Like, that's not what happened. It doesn't what happened. So with the word that you do now, like you support young models coming up and like helping

them signed to agencies and like make it basically can i ask like how this works compared to when you were doing it i don't know if you're still going out like do you still work as the model like do you still go out and get yourself like work or do you just focusing on other yeah so um i still i still do modeling jobs um like here and there but i am so focused on um my business it's it's so fulfilling for me to show aspiring models, all of the things. So I've been modeling for 17 years now. That's how long it's been since the show, you guys. 17 years. And there was no roadmap for me, even after doing America's next time model. There was no roadmap. There was no one there to hold my hand to say,

this is what you have to do now to like have an actual modeling career. No one was there to help me. So in 2017, I started my business and I just figured I'm going to help out any aspiring model who wants to get started and does not know where to start because most girls don't know where to start. They don't understand their market. They don't understand do I qualify for high fashion or do I do commercial print or I've been told I've been pretty my whole life and I don't know, I don't know how to get started or I know that I'm a little bit shorter. I know that I'm shorter than 5.9. Can I do modeling? And it's like, yes, absolutely you can. There's so many myths about the industry. So I just decided to put together a really awesome one-on-one post-coaching program where I show you like every single thing. And the industry has definitely changed a bit in terms of how you submit your photos. Like a lot of girls think you need to have a full portfolio. in order to be considered.

But it's not true. Like, all you need is digitals, but they need to be really, really good digitals. And so, yeah, the course just kind of talks about all of that stuff. And if anyone is interested, you can just send me a DM on Instagram, right? Kenya.com. And I'll do a free consultation. So I actually do, like, a phone consultation with you for, like, 20 to 30 minutes,

see what your goals are, and then tell you about the course. but it's really fun I'm able to really help girls know how to pose. Everyone doesn't know how to I love that. Imagine if I like DM'd you after this. It's like, can I have a consultation? I'd be thinking. Maybe we should go. Really, you know, and I do my course for people who are not just trying to get into modeling, people who just want to like know how to take really good pictures or if they have a business or if they're a music artist. Because the difference between what I'm doing and top model is that top model just said, we are going to just throw 50. 15 hopefuls in a room and see who turns out to be the best.

They didn't teach us anything. They never taught us how to pose. They never taught us how to have facial expressions. It didn't ever taught us anything. We had like little challenges or whatnot. But with my course, I'm actually teaching you head to toe, what to do with your shoulders, your arms, your hands, your legs. Alex, we should go.

Oh my God, we should say go. Can I just ask as well, like, from like an emotional standpoint, I guess it's really nice to have, like, support now or to be able to offer support to young people because I think, like, obviously with absolutely zero experience, I would guess that it's quite easy for people to be taking advantage of in the modelling industry. Like, it's a lot of, like, in the same way that it is in Hollywood,

probably it's like a lot of young beautiful women who could probably be taken advantage of quite easily by like old dudes. So I feel like I get the impression, like with you talking about the course that you do now that it, that modeling in general and like the fact that your course exists maybe means that the modeling industry is changing in terms of like a bit more like solidarity and support for younger models. Would that be a fair guess? Yeah, for sure.

But I mean, I do know that. There are not that many people that do what I do, actually. But I know that there are so many aspiring models. There are so many girls who want to make a career out of taking photos and just like having this form of self-expression, you know, I think it's really important to at least give it your best shot because if you have a dream of becoming a model and you don't try to see if it happens, like, you will always have that dream. Like, that doesn't ever go away.

And this turns into, oh, man, like, now imagine, imagine 10 or 13 years from now that it's still a dream, but now you're 10 or 15 years older in the industry. You can not be as welcoming, you know, and then you're just, like, sitting here with, like, this dream that's deferred, you know? But I, there's, I wish I could have taken my own course because I, for years was, like, confused like how did i do america's next hot model but i'm not able to just quickly get signed how is tyra not just yeah it was it was a struggle for sure so i want to make it less hard for aspiring models and to be really confident because it's hard you you don't want to go into a

casting full of beautiful women and leave feeling like oh everyone was so beautiful you know you can't take it personal. You can't take it personal. You just have to know, okay, this brand is looking for a very specific look and you probably just are not that look for what they were looking for that day. You know what I mean? But you've got to have a thick skin and also just in general. That's why I love you guys as accounts. Oh, thank you. You know, I still, despite the fact that we've quite thick skins on the internet, Alex. I think we would be absolutely fucking devastated to receive any feedback

in any of these cop-like situations. Yeah, yeah. Look, yeah, no, no, no, definitely not. I don't think I could hack it as a model. Like, the, I honestly, I've got, like, I always think about this. I'm like, if I die and go to hell, what will hell be? And I think hell will be me at five foot six,

looking exactly as I do right this second, walking into the audition that you walked into when everybody was five foot nine and stunning in L.A. And I've got to go in right now, like, exactly as I am in the second. And I have to be like, I honestly, I'm sweating thinking about it. I would perish. I would just die where I stood. The fact that that would be your hell is so hilarious.

I'm going to steal that. That is so funny. I honestly I think it's about as brave a thing as I always thought this about like modeling's one thing but trying to be a model is the only thing that's on par with that in my opinion is trying to be a comedian because that's super risky like if you're not funny but like it's the same with like modeling it's like you've got to back yourself but you know what I think what I love like first of all you have like these gorgeous eyes and I've been looking at your eyebrows this entire time. Thank you. For sure. Yeah. Your skin looks radiant. Okay. So let's just get that out of the way.

Stop. Stop. Stop. I can tell by where the light is reflecting off of your forehead that you have really great skin. Like, please, let's not even, okay? Let's not even go there. Oh my God. I can see why people sign up to your course. I'm like, I'm coming. But you know, because I really do mentor girls because I don't know how old you two ladies are, but you don't have to say, but I'm 36, right? And unfortunately, as women, we get more comfortable with ourselves as we get older. And that's why I love getting older because I feel way, you couldn't pay me to be 21 years old again. You couldn't pay enough money in the world. But I feel so much more comfortable in who I am.

And it's like, gosh, if I felt this level of comfort with myself, I would have made completely different decisions when I was in my 20s with who I date, with who I hang out with, with, my productivity levels you know like all of that stuff and it's so it makes such a big difference in your life when you just like love who you are when you love even if you don't if you're not in a place where you love who you are right now if you have the mindset that you know what I may not love every part of myself right now but I am growing I'm getting better I'm getting better every day I'm doing better than I did yesterday. I'm growing. I'm learning how to love myself.

Even if you can just get into that soft space with yourself, being gentle with yourself, you just feel, the way you engage with people, the way you just interact with the whole world is so different when you aren't just like cozy. Totally, yeah. And I feel like you radiate that.

Really? That's so sweet. Yeah. You feel like, it's talking to you, you feel like a woman who is very comfortable and confident in her own skin, which is really cool to say, really nice. I appreciate that. And I, it took, it took, it's, I'm still working on that. And like I said before, I'm a Virgo, okay? And if anybody knows Burgos, like, we are very hard on ourselves and we are like

perfectionists. And one of the main things that has helped me get to a place of comfort, just daily, just comfort with myself, is meditation and positive affirmations. Every single morning, I literally will just pop on YouTube and listen to some positive affirmations. And there's an actual science behind them. I don't see how people don't do them every day. They say if you listen to them for like 21 days straight, those things that you're listening to actually become real beliefs in your subconscious mind. So if you can just program your mind to be like,

I'm amazing when you can program your mind, especially if it's harder for you to naturally do that. You know what I mean? I love that. I might listen to some. Alex is the worst kind of Virgo because she doesn't believe in star signs, which I feel like it's quite Virgo-y,

anyway. So she's super cynical apart from the fact she checks every single burgo box in the whole life of. Well look Kenya, thank you so, so much for coming on to speak to us. This has been such a cool conversation and thank you for being so vulnerable with us

as well and so honest and like opening up about you know everything that you kind of went through with the show and everything else. It's yeah, it's just super interesting to hear and if you ever come to London like hit us up. Come see us. I'm 100%.

I can't wait. I'm coming. I'm coming. Thank you so much. You guys have really like racked my little brain. You've asked me questions that I never been asked. So impressed by that. I love that.

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