Should I Delete That? - Can I have plastic surgery AND be a feminist? with Sophie Milner

Episode Date: July 18, 2022

This week the girls chat to fashion and lifestyle influencer Sophie Milner. They deep dive into the contentious topic of surgery, coming away with potentially more questions than answers. Sophie has been open about her surgical procedures online, something that Em and Alex applaud, but does it mean that everyone in her position should be just as open?The podcast goes on tour again with the girls on holiday. They talk geography, kayaking and the red room…Follow Sophie on Instagram and TikTokSponsored by Butternut Box - visit www.butternutbox.com/alexandem for 50% off your first two boxesFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] & edited by Daisy Grant Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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and don't contain any grain, wheat, gluten, corn, soy or sugar, all of which are known to cause intolerances in dogs. We haven't been asked to say this, but we wanted to highlight a huge amount of work that Butternut Box do with dog charities. They donate meals to dogs in shelters, and they even donate freezers so that the shelters can store the meals. If you would like to try Buttonut Box out for your dog, you can get 50% off your first two boxes with the following link.

com forward slash alex and m oh my god why did i post that ah i don't know what to do should i delete that yeah you should definitely delete that hi al hi m i did have a little musical a little musical ring to that one hi-al you did you opened it on a high note how you doing good i'm good i'm i'm in edinburgh and i'm in the Alamann. Oh my God. Podcasts on tour. Podcast on tour. You're loving Edinburgh. I can just tell. I can see how happy you are. It's not as hot, is it. It's not as hot. That is probably the main reason I'm loving it. It's like 10 degrees less here and it is absolutely a stunning temperature. Still a little bit too hot. I've got to say. I would like a few degrees less.

Tough. Fuck off. Shut up. Fifteen. Go further north then. Go to Greenland. Go to sit in Antarctica. I don't care. Damn it. Antarctica is really far away. That's south. You don't want to do that. I don't know the difference. I always think it's really easy to remember because Antarctica is the longer word. So that's on the bottom, whereas the Arctic is at the top because it's the shorter word. I'm going to let you know that I learned that when I was about five, four or five. So it's an honour to bring it to you now in your mid-30s.

Wait, so if we go north from the UK, we hit the Arctic. Well, yeah, the Arctic's at the top of the world. So everyone will hit that at the top because it's like the ice. the ice plates at the top and then you've got the same at the bottom you know I got 96% in my geography GCSE so actually any more questions in this arena I'm actually alright to help you with

I'm not well I am terrible at geography terrible Alex I know that because you didn't know what high park was and you've lived in London for like near on a decade yeah that's a good point you hit me good bad or awkward where we like to start? I'll start with a good and it's actually a good in the shape of a massive thank you to everybody that listened to last week's episode and that sent love on the back of it. We were fucking terrified to put that out and I literally, I don't think I've ever used the word

shit scared so many times in a day in like a week but I really, really was and the messages that we have had have been unparalleled. The best ones that I've had have been from people who've used those forums who took something from the episode about their behaviour but also just from people who were being very nice about my wedding hair but mostly it was from people who really took something themselves from the episode and like I had a message I had an amazing voice note from a girl yesterday saying that she listened to the podcast on the way to work and when she got in she had a message from her boss like calling her into the office and the boss said some quite like unfounded unkind things and she was like before it would have really really upset me

because I'd listen to it in the morning and then I got to carry on listening to it on my way home I really took strength in that and it completely changed the whole way that I like existed that day and how I feel now and it's like that's so cool and I've had so many yeah we've had so many messages like that from people being like this is actively really helped me and this is how and that's exactly what we wanted to do and not to be petty but that's the main thing that the people who critique my life say is that we don't do anything good with our platforms. And you know what? Yes, we fucking do.

On the back of that. And if they, they facilitated this good thing and I'm really proud that we did it. So although I was terrified, I'm really pleased that it went down so well. And I just want to say like a massive thanks to everyone who got in touch afterwards because, yeah, it was scary. But it was good. The reaction has made me, I literally, I feel so much better. like still like very highly strong but so much better it's crazy yeah so that's good tell me something good thank you guys um something good so i went to parliament for an event called hashtag recognized body

image what you're going to say for like called the tory leadership party i'm the new prime minister um imagine no no that'd be terrible they'd be like we need a decision from you and i'd be like i need five working days just to think about it um yeah went to parliament which was really fun like really cool i was obviously very excited because i've never been uh obviously why would i have been you have been you literally you went like in february that was over zoom i mean out it's it's still closer to parliament than the rest of us get but okay

I've never been Apart from that one time that I went on Zoom I have to say a little bit underwhelming I don't know what I was expecting but cool nonetheless What do you mean?

As in like it's just a building but I guess I only saw one room I didn't see like proper parliament Did you go into like House of Commons House of Lords? House of Lords The Red one? Yeah

Yes Worth That's the room you went into And that's what you said It's underwhelming I'm pretty sure famously that's the best room they have You were in like the suite

like honeymoon sweet the event was supposed to be in there but then we passed through it and went to the it was like on the outside because it was too hot so that is a shame because I did think oh my god this room is incredible the red room I didn't know it was famous but it was really cool

in 50 shades of grey like the red room got very different views of oh god they're all so old so it was an event to celebrate this campaign by Dr Luke Evans who is basically trying to get companies and brands and influencers to stop editing their photos

and when they do edit their photos to water market, pretty much like the law that's being passed in Norway. And especially like sponsor content as well. And like it is really cool that it's getting talked about in parliament and that people are taking notice. And like Dr. Luke Evans is like I just think it's really cool that he's doing. this. It's not like, I don't think it's the be all and end all when it comes to body image. I think there's still like a lot more than it needs to be talked about and addressed.

But this is a really cool start and I just felt like it, I felt really like excited and like energized and like, oh my God, things are happening. Like I go through waves with this stuff and like what I'm doing. Sometimes I think like, is there any point to what I'm doing? Like, am I just shouting into the abyss, like shouting into my echo change? is there any point and then something like this kind of like burst that little bubble like in a good way and I was like okay no this is cool like people are actually talking about it and we're like I mean with parliament you have you have to be like reaching you know different audiences then so so yeah that was really cool that is really cool and you're right it's really nice when you feel

like something is changing because it can feel very like terminal doing this stuff because it feels like stuff's getting worse and worse but then I also just think and I really believe that we're going to look back at this point in like 20 years when all of these laws the online safety bill regulations have come into place and we'll look back and be like well that was insane thank god we regulated that shit show fingers crossed right i mean fingers crossed yeah for sure bad hit me uh low key um i'm sunburned out i've had you are you actually really are i think you used to take a picture of your um chest i don't think we should i don't think we should i went to go and take one last night and i was like nope i don't want the mems you actually always get

shit whenever you show your sunburn on social media you get so much shit for it yeah right I've got one of those noses I guess it just sticks out physics science so I don't know it's just there right it's closer to the sun than the rest of me my nose gets sunburned all the time and I always wear SPF 40 on my face every single day without fail and for some reason maybe it's because I just spend a lot of time outside maybe I'm sweaty I don't know my nose gets burned and not badly not like I'm not Voldemorting anytime soon it's just a little bit pink and I always get like, yeah, exactly. People are like, you're promoting skin cancer.

I'm like, well, not fucking really. Absolutely not. It's been like, this would be gas, like praying for some melanin or the bad one. Melanoma, yeah, stupid. Obviously, I don't want that. Obviously, I'm not promoting it. Obviously, I'm not being like, oh my God, live my life. Because every time I'm always like, oh, God, how has this happened?

But yeah, normally I don't particularly burn. The island man is nothing on London's temperatures. Like, it's only like 20 degrees. So I sat out yesterday for like an hour reading my book and bam. Just got done. So burn. I think I got lulled into a false sense of security. Yeah, when it's cold.

I'm by the sea. So there's a nice sea breeze, yeah. Windy and a bit, yeah. I've learned a valuable lesson. Wear your SBF kids. And that's there. Well, we're more SBF, but yeah, I didn't put it on my arms because I was like, oh, I'll only be out here for a minute.

Fucking idiot. So it's not a bad, but, you know, it's not great. It's a fun. I'm putting it in the bad. I'm putting it in the bad. It's not a fun. I did not mean that. If you make it sound fun, people are going to say that I'm promoting

skin cancer again it's a light bad no it's not a light bad okay you know what i mean no it's it's a bad bad it's a bad bad so people specifically know it's a bad thing okay bad bad bad where your spf kids very important don't know why i keep saying kids i know and this is why i bought baseball caps but i just forgot to bring them with me because i just didn't think it'd be that hot but that's why i wear a cat most of the time now to protect my little nose so more for me i'm just gonna have to go full freddie flint off today and just do the like oh i actually we're not far away from a golf club. I could go up and see if they've got one in the shop.

Have fun with a little ponytail like sticking at the shop. Yeah, love that. I'm off way there. Okay, so yeah, good idea. Thanks, Al. Genius. Anything bad for me? Oh, do you know what?

Like the bad that I was going to say, just like, I don't know, it doesn't feel like appropriate because it feels like this is all quite lighthearted. Not the skincare skin cancer is lighthearted. It's obviously not. But just like, I was thinking like, what is my bad this week before we started recording? And I was like in the interest of being transparent.

and, like, I'm just, I'm not having a great time mentally at the moment. Like, with anxiety is just not feeling that great. And, like, that is, honestly, that is my bad, definitely this week. And I actually think, like, one of the worst parts of it as well is I'm being so irritable, like, so irritable and poor day of, like, I keep snapping at him and then being like, fuck, why am I doing that? And, like, apologising profusely, but I don't know if anxiety makes you feel irritable, but it really makes, I think it's because, like, so much headspace goes into it

that you don't have much headspace for anything else and like we were coming away and Dave was like are you going to bring your hair dryer and I was like no there'll be one there there'll be one at the Airbnb it's fine and he was like I don't think they will I'll just bring a hair dryer

and I was like there will be one at the Airbnb and I don't have any headspace for this like stop it leave me alone and obviously we got to the Airbnb and there's no hairdry so I've had to go out and buy like a really little shitty one that's actually small but mighty so yeah I hate that

I hate the irritative, I just, I just hate that, I hate being irritated, because I just feel so guilty afterwards, like, immediately afterwards. But it's just like that snap. We were talking about that in the Gemma episode, weren't me? Like, I get, I actually, I don't particularly snap at other people, but I really, I snap at myself. And I get really, sometimes I will at Alex, but it's, I'm much more, I think since coaching, I'm much less likely to turn it on other people now, but the thing that I still haven't got to grips with is not turning it on myself like I really sit with myself and I'm like this isn't his fault even when he's being so annoying I'm like he doesn't know yeah doesn't know how awful he's being like he doesn't know

that the sound of his chewing is like ruining my life right now like yeah I think like there would have been a time when well they definitely was a time when I just get really irritated by like loads of things but I've already I've talked about this so much about like my expectations for other people being really high so then I'd get irritated if they didn't match them but a massive part of my coaching and making my life happier was just never to get annoyed with anybody else because I just didn't want to be I don't like being annoyed I don't like being irritated but the one area I haven't been able to really fix that is with myself so I know what you mean but I just snap at myself and then I get like if I were you now I'd have got angry with

myself about the hair dry and I'd be so angry with myself and then I'd like just be horrible to myself for like hours do you know what I mean yeah yeah no I know what you mean yeah I just feel about because it's like a it's not like a constant irritation it's just like a like a snap like it's like a reflex and I hate that because then I feel like it's not me and then I just feel so guilty about anyway it's just but you're able to communicate it and that's good like you can recognize that you're doing it so you can at least communicate yeah and I say sorry to him straight away and he's like it's fine like it it takes a lot for him to be like actually upset that's the Aquarius life and I love that for him is it it also

like take so much to get a rise out of him like so much good that's becoming out that's exactly what you need in this life you do not need someone hot-headed in your life i think it would be an absolute yeah i would not like that at all absolutely not absolutely not that would kill me i've never been with anyone who's hot-headed actually thank god um and and then a part of that today as well part of the bad as well is like feeling like i don't know if you feel this too is like feeling like you can't talk about it because people are going to be like, oh, she's always moaning. Do you know, I don't know, do you get that? I have this feeling of like, I'm always moaning, like, I'm constantly moaning, and I try not to

moan, like, and I try not to moan when I'm, like, busy or stressed or, like, feeling anxious because I feel like people like, oh, you know, she's, you know, so, and I'm just going to say it, like, oh, she's so privileged, she's got so much, you know, like, she's got such a good life, like, da-da-da-da, like, how can she moan? So like even then I was like I don't know if that you should even be my bad Do you know what I mean? Of you can moan

But I hate the word moaning as well I also feel like it's really fucking gendered I don't feel like people talk about men moaning Oh my God it's so gendered I never thought about that it's so gendered Same as ranting people always tell me that I rant And I'm just like men never rant How annoying

But I don't think you feel like But I also think Al like And you're one of these people That holds everything so well together And I think maybe because we work together Really closely now And I've also accidentally been privy to like some of your coaching sessions with Jacqueline.

Like, I feel like I understand the way that you work quite well now. So, like, I can tell, like, this week you've been very different to how you normally are, but you don't bring a problem to me. You're just, you just behaviour shifts to time, but not bad, but, you know, you can just notice it. And I always, I want you to know always that you can always bring a problem to me. I'll never think that you're moaning. And I'd love to be able to help you more. And I'd love to be able to, like, and I think that's true.

true of all your friends and actually all the people that like you and you know what the people that don't like you people that listen and think oh she's so privileged she can't have problems that's an astounding lack of empathy and you wouldn't go to them for help anyway because of course you can have problems and mental health is not um it's not picky it goes for anybody and and we know that we know that so famously now that's something we've talked about online for a very long time but it's it's incredibly clear you know you look at some of the most seemingly happy and successful people in the whole wide world and you have no idea the battles that they're facing and that's something that we teach

all the time is that empathy is important and love and kindness so you never need to feel bad for quote on quote moaning because you're not moaning you're sharing reality and that's the point of this section of the podcast is to talk about this stuff it is of course it is and it's horrible living with anxiety like that it's horrible like to just feel so unsafe all the time

and so uncomfortable all the time and I've really felt for you so I'm really proud of you for sharing it but I don't think you should ever feel bad because It's just... Yeah, and maybe we need a new word for moaning, actually. That's so true. I've never thought that it was gender. That's never crossed my mind, but it's so true.

Like, men don't know moan. Yeah, I don't think they do. I don't think they do. Let's do awkward. Anything awkward for me? So my awkward is that I was sitting next to a girl on the train the other day, and she was Googling, and I didn't mean to be looking at her phone, but she had one of the big phones,

and it was right in front of me, and I just couldn't help it. And she was Googling, should I break up with my boyfriend? And I had major second. and had anxiety for her. Like, it, honestly, I was like, I feel like I should, like, talk to her. Like, I don't know. It was like, oh, my God, I feel so bad for her. So, yeah, that was mine.

Did you talk to her? No, no, because then I'd have to admit that I was looking at her phone. Yeah, yeah, you would. Even though it was kind of in my face a little bit. I don't think that's the excuse you think it is. I felt like a lot of men have used that for, like, I wasn't staring at your boobs. They were just in my face.

Alex, the phone pervert. It's a good point. That's a very good point. Shame on me. Oh, bless her. There's an Alla Gartland song and I love her so much and it says, there's a lyric in it and it's just like, oh, actually, this isn't going to make you feel any better. But it's like, it's like, the song is called Why Am I Like This?

And she's like, I saw a girl crying on a train and I should have asked if she was okay. But she just got up and walked away. Why am I like this? It's that thing where you always think like, oh, God, I wish, I want to help that person. You know, if someone's... Because if you were crying in public, would you want someone to talk to you or not? No.

I wouldn't, but I feel... When I'm upset, I prefer to be quite insular with it. But other people prefer support. But if you're crying on a train, like, arguably that's not that insular. But if you can't help it, you know. I guess if you're, like, looking around, like, doing a dramatic wipe of the tears and you're, like, clearly looking for it, then, yeah.

But... Oh, I think, yeah, I've had some really nice people. I mean, why am I always crying? public but the few times I've been upset in public I think I had an old lady asking me if I was okay was and then there was that one time when I fell over I was doing the world of the worst days of my life I was doing this marathon training run and I fell outside a hotel in Battersea and I just landed on the floor and I just burst and she said it was like 11 miles in and I just wasn't thriving and this woman who was like the nicest woman like had the friendliest face I've

ever seen on a human she was like are you okay and I just looked and I was like no she was like oh my god what's wrong with you and then she had to sit with me for ages it was really embarrassing fuck it that's my awkward for this week from like three years ago so embarrassing

yeah but I do think it's good to like assume that people aren't like me and assume that it is nice to give them to be like are you okay literally just three words and also like if I don't want to talk to you they'll be like I'm fine thank you or and if they do then yeah there you go yeah I think it's always nice like I always get

emotional when I see those people standing with the pieces of cardboard saying free hugs. Oh, but I think... And then they just... The people really need a hug. Wait, what, you're going to be... You're going to be cynical, aren't you? No, do you do that? Do you go and give them a hug?

Well, no. No. I'm not a massive hugger, but it's nice for everyone else. Okay, I have an awkward, and it's not my awkward. It's not my awkward at all, but it's someone else is awkward, and this is really bad, but we went, so it was one of my best friends hen at the weekend, and it was really fun, and on the Saturday, we went canoeing, and, this guy, there were two men

leading the canoe trip. Yes. So there were like 20 of us, like 20 of us hens. There were actually some boys within the hens, but that's fun and that's modern and we love to see it. But so mostly these clacking women and we were all getting our little life jackets on and we were all getting ready to go in our

canoes and have a little excursion and it was great and there were two men and I'm not going to name them who were like leading the trip and there was older guy who was helping us get like in the boats and then there was the younger guy and oh my God I've never felt so sorry for a human being. I don't know what came over him.

But the younger guy, like, pushed his boat. He, like, ran down the slipway, like, ch-ch-ch-ch-ch, ch-ch. Running down the slipway, he, like, pushed his boat out into the water. Then he did this, like, jump thing. Yeah. To, like, clearly try and, like,

I'm just going to say it. I think he might have been trying to show off, like, a tippy tiny bit. So he pushed his boat down really fast, and then he jumped into it, and then obviously fell out the fucking boat. And we were all just like, oh, my.

God. Oh no, I'm dying for him. I fucking died. And you know me. Like I have a problem and it's not good. Like I've watched my mum trip over so many times these last few days and you shouldn't laugh at your mum tripping over. You shouldn't. It's not appropriate. But you're evil. But I have a problem. And it's not even funny. Like I get really embarrassed by my own like sickness. But look, it's something I was born with. I can't do anything about it. Okay. So if this lad wants to like skateboard his cut canoe, down to the water and then fall out. And I just felt so sorry for him because then we had to go on a two-hour excursion and he was all wet. He had to just get back in his little boat. He just had to get back in his boat and just canoe with us.

And we all had to gnaw. I know it. And we just had to sit there and be like, okay. Okay. Like that's normal. Did he address it? Well, I asked him at the end. At the end.

So at the beginning, were in a different boat. Like, we couldn't be like, oh my God, are you okay? because it was like... Did he like, you know, put his hand up and go, like, ha ha, like, holl, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, he... We had a bit of a lull, but it all had to be like, you know, like a polite lull, not like, ha ha, ha. It had to be like, yeah, like, oops, what you like.

So I think everyone, a couple people like... That poor man, nice, he was like, yeah, he was a nice young guy. And then at the end, I was like, you're all right, does that always happen? He was like, no. Oh, bless him. I know, I know, I know. It was nothing worse than, like, sure. showing off and then just doing something absolutely mortifying.

I know, and when it's your job as well, like you're the one that's really good, in it. I'll keep him in my prayers. Yeah, he was a really good sport and he was a really nice guy. And thankfully for him, I don't think he'll ever see any of us again. That's a good thing about a hen. You never go, like, where any of you live. Yeah. You always go somewhere else.

Few, thank God. I think he, yeah, few. And if I hadn't just immortalized it on here, no one would ever know. I know. I've deliberately not said where we were. I actually love that awkward. not called Jeffrey. That was really funny. Okay, we've got our guest to announce.

This week on the podcast is our friend Sophie Milner. Sophie's a fashion, a lifestyle influencer, but she talks really openly about her. She's had some plastic surgery and she talks really openly about it and we wanted to get her on to chat about it and go like sort of delve into it a little bit because I think it's like a really interesting topic that admittedly is very much.

a grey area and I don't think necessarily there are any sort of like right or wrong answers when it comes to this stuff it's more like this interview is more like an exploration of the topic and I found it really really interesting and I hope I hope you guys do as well and I do think there will be lots of opinions around this which we obviously welcome and feel free to share them with on our Instagram DM at should I do that pod because yeah it think it should be an open topic because I don't think there are, yeah, I don't think it's black and white, is it? No, and like I don't think, even though it's done, and we've had this conversation, I don't think I know entirely where I land. Like, I don't think I have

a set core of beliefs here about any of it. My opinion is very fluid, an individual, and yeah, I really welcome Sof's viewpoint. I love following her online because I do think her transparency is very cool and there are and I'll confess there are times sometimes when I look you know when I wake up in the morning and I just look like a slack of absolute dicks and like you know there's you know when you just look fucking gross and you look at someone beautiful online as so fierce and she's so like glamorous and put together and I look at her sometimes and I think oh my god I wish I look like you and I think it's really interesting that sometimes I sit with that thought um and then particularly I think the thing that she does that's so valuable is she talks so

openly on her stories about her own issues with body image, the things that have driven her to do certain things. And she is very open-knit about Botox or plastic surgery, whatever she's had done. You know, she doesn't keep anything a secret. And I think that's really important because you can't get away from the feelings that I was feeling. Like, I don't think that it's human nature to instinctively compare yourself sometimes or have these thoughts. So it's really kind of valuable then when you accept that you are probably going to have these thoughts that the people that you're having them about can be really honest and open.

So I don't know with any certainty what I think, but I really welcome the conversation. And I also think, like, let's have this one with kindness because I think this is a really good example of sometimes when women can get quite like women on women, like, catty. Yes. And surgery can get kind of, people get very passionately, I was about to say this.

For or against. And I think we need to remember to just lead with love. And so is a really great girl. And we absolutely love her. And I thought what she said was really cool. And she's a great follow. She's also one of the smartest people I follow online. Like her stories, I just absolutely love her.

So, yeah, I'm really excited for this episode. And I hope everyone enjoys it. Enjoy the episode. Here is Sophie. Thank you so much for coming on. No worries. We're both really excited to have you. I can't believe you've never met before.

Like, I've followed you for years, for ages and ages. I feel like we've spoken over DM for ages and ages. Yeah. But never met you. But I love following you on Instagram. Instagram. You're one of my favorite people to follow. Oh my God, thanks. No, I mean it. I do. I do too. Yeah. We actually did talk about this. So this isn't just like as I spoke at your ass. We mean it. Because what I really like is, I mean, and I don't know how to say this without like offending, like, typical fashion influences. But a lot of the time, and I don't actually mean this with offense. And I know that every time you say no offense is always like a fence. But a lot of fashion influences, I love what they do. But a lot of it is quite like aspiration.

and very curated and not necessarily some of the more accessible stuff and that's what I love that you do because like you actually offer a glimpse into your entire life like the good bits the bad bits and a lot of that is to do with like body image as well and I was saying to M before you came here it was like what I find super interesting and unique about what you talk about with body image is that loads of us like myself included it's like we talk about like our journey like body image journey like it's always in the past tense like it was so bad and this happened that happened and da-da-da but like now I'm fine and you rarely actually hear or see someone online talking about having bad body image in the moment and like being super transparent with it and you do that a lot you're like super

honest with it which is what I love and I imagine is so helpful for so many people I'm so I feel like I'm so honest with so many things that often it's possibly to my detriment sometimes because I worry that by being so honest about these things I possibly have a negative impact on some people and people will look at me and be like why I'm I'm a size like eight to ten a lot of the time and I just feel that people will look at me and be like why would you have an issue with your body image but then other people look at me and they're like oh yeah I can see why you have an issue with your body image and it's crazy because all these people's opinions around there it's really hard to block them out and also focus on your own opinion especially when your own opinion skewed

so I always worry I'm like if by talking about it am I going to make other people feel worse but then in general, whenever I've spoken about it and being really open and honest, people have just been so in general, very kind. And also like, oh my God, it feels so nice to hear someone explain these things or say something that I recognize. And, you know, I feel that I don't have a right to be upset about my body or feel uncomfortable about my body because there's nothing like in quotation box wrong with my body. But like, you know, you talking about it makes me feel like I can have these issues as well. And it's like, we don't want to have issues. But I just feel like, sometimes owning it, for me,

it kind of probably comes more of a place out of like desperation and actually just panicking in the moment and being like, I'm having a really hard time. So I want you to know that I'm having a hard time. And life is not easy, breezy and perfect all the time. Like there is this like amazing side of my life. But then there's also this flipped reality. And this is how I see things and how I live my life.

So, yeah. Yeah. And it's so true. I mean, because anybody in this space, body image space and who talks about body image and knows about body image is that they know that it's in the mind it's a problem in the mind it's not a problem with the body so if we tell people who are a certain size who are slim or take a size 8 10 12 whatever if we say that those people can't have body image issues and at the same time we're saying that it's in the mind that it's a mind

problem not a body problem like there's a huge like there's a huge oh absolutely no completely and I think that's the thing I think everyone wants to put everything neatly in a box and this is this issue that I find happens with women a lot, happens in the influencer industry. Everyone's like, oh, you must take a certain box to be able to identify as this or have this as a problem in your life or this be your niche. But actually it's like, that's so reductive. I mean, I had my boobs done when I was a lot younger than I am now. And I never told anyone about it because I didn't even have an Instagram account. So for me, I was like, this is kind of not relevant to anything. When I did eventually come out and say, oh yeah, like I had my boobs done years ago, because

people would not stop asking me and it got to a point where I was like, I just don't, I felt like I was either withholding the truth or lying by, by just ignoring their questions. So after I said that, people were just like, oh, well, how can you even have anything to say about body image or even be a voice about like, you know, dealing with body image when you've had surgery? And I'm like, well, isn't that like, doesn't that kind of go hand in hand? Like, I had surgery because I had an issue with my body image. So actually, like, I do deserve a seat at this table to have this like discussion because, you know, this is something that's directly affected me so much that I went and changed my body. So it's really weird, but people think that, oh, you only talk about it if you're like

this person who's in all embracing of their floors and everything like that rather than someone who's gone out and changed something. And it's just, it's crazy. It's like, it's not as simple as that. Nothing is as simple as that, unfortunately. Yeah. And it's really weird. It's like, I even find it fascinating how much you are asked and how much like there was speculation about it in the first place because it's like what what does that information give to anybody else it's like it's completely irrelevant yeah completely i know i find it really frustrating because i was like it was it was something that was very personal to me and i did it when i was younger and also like it was it was something that my my parents they were like we don't want you to tell people because

we don't want people to judge us for allowing you to do that at that age like realistically that I was still old enough to make my own decision. How old for you? Turning to, 20, 21. So I was still really young. Because I had like this thing called, I don't know the exact, like, medical term for it.

But it was like, they called it a depressed chest and it's where your chest wall goes in. So my boobs, like, not only did I have like one boob way bigger than the other, they also sat inwards inside my chest. So they looked, it was, they were not, I wouldn't say they looked deformed, but they certainly were like more, like, more than just like a, I don't really like my boobs. I don't really like my boobs. I want big boobs.

It was just like, I just want to look a, and feel. a bit more normal in my body. That's all I wanted. And I don't regret it at all. And I know people will probably judge me for saying that because I had a surgery so young, being like, oh, like, you know, you should have waited until you're older. Maybe I should have done. But also I don't regret it because it gave me so much confidence. And I was at university at the time and the girls I was living with, they, a few of them were quite anti-cosmetic surgery. And when they found out I was having it, they were, they didn't really say anything. But then afterwards, they like, you know, when you're all drunk at pre-drinks, they're like, so, like, you've really changed my mind about

surgery. Like, I have seen you go from this really insecure, cover your body up kind of person to this incredibly confident, like, young woman, and seeing you that's changing you and how happy you are in yourself. They were like, I can't even put it in words. Like, it's amazing. And, like, that's really changed my mind on surgery. And I was just like, that's, you know, that was really awesome to hear like to because it's it's I feel like once again it's one of these things that I'm such a fence sitter when it comes to situations I'm very I can kind of always see things from all angles and different points of views and it's like oh they I agree with that and I agree with that because so yeah it's it's it's it's a weird one I know that that's it like cosmetic surgery is such a

contentious subject and a lot of people have a lot of opinions on it and yeah so I think that when I kind of came out and was like oh yeah I'd had my boobs done when I was younger and and people are like, well, you can't talk about body image then. And I'm like, but why? Like, come on. It's just crazy. Like, you can't, also you can't tell people what they can and can't talk about. Or what they kind of can't do with their bodies.

Right. Yeah, I know, right? And I felt, because this was a thing, because I have this, I'm a very, like, pro. Get the surgery, like, get a surgery if you want it. There's loads of, it's very baseline, very, that's what I kind of feel in general. But there's also loads of kind of caveats to that. But my main thing, when it comes to people, with platforms having surgery, I, people always say, like, do you think that influencers and

celebrities should disclose the surgery that they've had? And I personally don't think that they should. Like, imagine everyone having to post a disclaimer being like, boobs, fake. Like, you know, that kind of thing on every single picture. However, I do feel, and also then once again, that's also policing women's bodies. Like, it really is. But then I think when people are selling products off the back of the surgery. Now that's when things are really not right. And I don't know how that would ever be sort of kind of like watched. But say for example, like I've worked with loads of underwear brands in my time as an influencer, but every single time I had a campaign and they were like, we want you to talk about how supportive this bra is. I always said, no, I can't talk about how

supportive it is. And this is before I'd even told anyone I had like publicly that my boobs weren't real. I was like, I can't say that. I wear a, this bras really supportive because my boobs aren't real and that for me is false advertising like it's i can't be like hey i'm an f cup and this is so supportive but actually my boobs are fake like i can't that's just false advertising so i will not do that and they've always been really great like about it being like okay cool we'll go down a different angle and even when it comes to lingerie brands wanting to work with me on things i always said that straight up as well being like just want to let you know that my boobs aren't real do you still want to work with me because they might want to obviously work with someone who's got like like a more

figure and that's fine like you know it's going to show the product off probably best to its ability if that's what they're really focused on so yeah i think when things get to a point where people are selling products off their enhancements like people who've had b b bals and then they're like then they're like promoting their glute guides and things like that that to me i'm like yeah that's that's that's really crossing a line that's crossing a moral line really to me yeah yeah agree and i agree with you as well that like influences like nobody should have to declare their surgery or anything they've had done um but you made the decision with yours and and subsequently you've had you had your nose done right and talked about it online yeah um but i felt so sorry you had that the same time as i had my jaw done

and we were just like lying oh my god yeah i mean yours yours was like way more my sister had that surgery that you had but she had it years ago um and it was it was it was very nice Yeah, it was very, very, very different to kind of how, I think they're a lot more surgically advanced with what they did to you now compared to what they did to my sister. Also, they messed hers up and she had to have to have a second surgery as well. Oh, did you? I don't know you had the second. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh my god. Yeah. It's like so, but then, yeah, no job was very self-inflicted. No. My mom always says it doesn't matter how you got hurt. The fact is you got hurt. Yes. And I like, when she said it with her, whenever you've got a hangover, she's like, it doesn't matter how you got sick. The fact is, you're sick now and you know. Oh my God. My mom's opposite.

If I'm, I'm only sick, she's like, did you drink last night? And I'm like, yeah, and she's like, well, it's your own fault. But again, my mum's also a Virgo. So it kind of all makes sense. Yeah, you're no, yeah, sorry, I interrupt you, but your nose, like that looks, you've got your black eyes. I just remember, I just remember feeling, like, perverse solidarity. I was like, oh, just stop just, yeah.

I was so nervous. And the same because I had my, sorry, it makes me laugh. I don't know why, because it's such like a niche surgery. I just laugh when I say it. But I had my hairline surgically lowered to, I have been fascinated by this. So have I looked so good. But I just don't

and I will get back to like the question that one time but like I don't get how they do it. So for hairline lowering surgery it's it's very common in people who are getting facial feminization surgery so when people are going through their like transitioning and having that surgery is apparently like very very common

in that area. So yeah basically they cut your underneath your hairline and obviously my forehead was three centimeters bigger than what it is now and then they um they basically cut it remove a bit of skin and then sort of like shift your scalp sort of like downwards and then stitch it back up so like you have to if you like grab your head and go like that like your head will like you're gonna wait wait see you guys don't have much movement yeah you've got you you've got quite a bit of movement so you might be it you would maybe if you ever wanted it's like a massive forehead also but like you but like you don't you don't have much movement in your scalp so

you wouldn't be a very I don't think you'd be very good candidate for it for example so there's like those things like that that come into it whereas I went like that oh my god my whole hair was like you because I was just like so they were like yeah you'd be a perfect candidate for it because you've got loads of space to pull your hair line down without like causing like any real like stretching or anything like that no but I did I had so I would be sold if I could have my hair and they brought my hair down

on my eyebrows. I had a brow lift done at the same time because I had remember I had that awful not the fox eye thread lift but I had thread lift my eyebrows and I had loads of complications from it and so I had the threads removed from that and then I had my brows surgically lifted

because they all went in with the same incision and that way I was because I was like you know what they're doing the incision for the hairline lowering they may as well just remove the threads that I'd been causing me so much pain and also just lift my brows as well. So yeah, they just did it all in one.

And it was, like, it was a really good experience. It was a really good experience for me. But it was, you know, it was once, like the both that and my nose job, I was so nervous about getting it done. And not because, not necessarily because I was like, what if it goes wrong? Like that was probably about 10% of my worry. Right.

The 90% was, what are people going to think about me? people going to judge me like you know like p i know because i know people judge and i know people like a lot of people don't like surgery and i it was really frustrating and i nearly i nearly dropped out of having my forehead done like probably maybe a week before because i was so worried about telling people about it and like talking about it online because it's my face i can't hide my face i can't after you know i'd like i always like make it make a joke about my forehead being being big and then i couldn't suddenly just like you know a few weeks later come back and it'd be smaller and people are like you look different and I'm like I have no idea why I couldn't I just

and I'm not that kind of I'm so open and honest about things online like I talk about everything I talk about like you know thrush for God's sake probably at least every week but I'm just very open and honest about these things that it may it would make no sense for me to not say anything about it and I just felt like I would be duping my my followers I do still like think like maybe in future if I decided to have surgery would I tell everyone about it? I don't know. It depends where I'm at, like, mentally in my life. But at the time, I was like, no, it feels like it's the right thing to do for both that

and my nose job. But I dealt with it in two very different ways. When I had my nose done, I kind of went through this whole, like, I had kind of approached it with this really apologetic, I've done something wrong, I really hope you don't judge me, sort of approach to it. And I remember, I didn't tell anyone really, I'd only told a few people I was going to get it done. And then after the surgery, after the surgery, after.

I'd seen like my picture, my before and after picture on the operating table and was like, yeah, that looks good now. I feel happy. And I went and posted about it on Instagram. And I wrote like this three screenshot, like page screenshot long notes about about like, you know, why I decided to have the surgery and like how I'd been having nose filler for years and how it's been one of my biggest insecurities and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, just justifying my action because I was so worried about all the judgment that I would get. And the fact that I sort of approached it in that way it was almost like it was like like I'd done something wrong it was like I was asking for like forgiveness for making this decision about my body and at the time that that felt like

the right way to deal with it like a million percent but then when I did my forehead I was just thought about it and I was like I don't want to take the whole apologetic approach again like it is my body and like it's my face it's my body like I am being open and honest some people are not going like this some people will maybe just be indifferent to it some people are going to judge me some people are going to respect me for it it is what it is so i was like i'm just going to own it and be like so this is what i've done and this is why i've done it and you can have your opinions on it but this is this is this is what's happened and i'm going to be honest with you and i'm not going to lie about it and i felt so much more empowered in doing that because i felt like i hadn't set myself up on the

back foot of being like oh my god people are going to come for me i just kind of just was like whatever I'm just gonna go with it so yeah it scary how did people react what was a difference both times both times it's actually been really I think I only remember having maybe one or two semi negative messages about my nose and that was more like oh what it wasn't like a oh you look terrible it was a oh why did you do that you were fine the way you were like oh or like you know like your your features were what made you unique, and now, like, now you just seem to look like everyone else. And this is something that I know, like, it's a very, very difficult thing. And I know that this is maybe going to, like, get me in shit for saying it.

But if you ever, if you have a feature that, like, I'm a 30 year old woman. I'm old enough to make my decisions for myself now. And I feel that if you've got a feature that people are like, oh, but it makes you unique and stand out. A lot of the time that feature was probably something that that person got bullied for. Like, my nose was something I got bullied for in school. So I don't want a nose that stood out. I wanted to look like everyone else. I wanted like a note. Well, I wanted to look like me. I wanted, I was, I said to my sergeant, I was like, I want this to be really like natural. I don't want a crazy big difference. I just want to look like, I just want the bump to be gone. And, you know, that's the thing. I think people just think that's by saying, oh, but it's doing things that make you unique. And I don't disagree with that. But also, I think even though that's so well intended and I look at people and I'm like, oh my God, like, you know, she looks really quirky or she looks like this. That's beautiful. before it's so different, that's not how they feel in themselves. And so when you hear that, it kind of really does fall flat a lot of the time because you're like, well, that's great,

but that's not how I feel in myself. Also, that doesn't feel that well intended to me, because on a very basic level to say to someone, once they've had surgery that is permanent surgery that they can't go back on, it's not like having filler in your nose that you can dissolve. Like you've just had surgery. So then to go and say to them, oh, well, actually, but that was what made you unique and now it's gone. Like, why are you saying? saying there's something they can do now so like think that but keep it to yourself yeah exactly exactly but just that saying it is something like you shouldn't comment on the way people someone looks unless they can change it in five minutes or something so for example like I'm sitting here and

I've got something in my teeth and you're like babe babe babe yeah something in your teeth that and you can fix really easily whereas if you're like babe babe um like you know your nose looks like shit like I don't know something like that like it's something that you can't change or like immediately if you can't change something within five minutes don't bother commenting on it that's the way that I see it. But in general, like, it's, the, the response was really, really overwhelmingly positive. And I, I think for me, obviously, I've been a full-time influencer for a long time now. And my main concern about having surgery and talking about it, I remember telling my agent and who's a very good friend of mine, I was like, I'm not going to tell anyone about my nose job.

I'm not going to tell anyone. I'm just going to like, pre-record content and just post it. And then I was just not going to say anything. And then it would be fine. And she was like, I just, think that you should own it. I don't think that you should keep your followers in the dark about it. Like I just don't. People will ask you questions at the end of the day anyway. And I said, my main concern about talking about having cosmetic enhancements is that it's going to create insecurities in other girls and girls that didn't necessarily have it before and then encourage them to go out and get the surgery. And like, my agent was like, look, you might create an insecurity in someone else, but also you existing.

maybe creating insecurities in other people. And she was like, the only people you're going to really encourage to go out and spend a lot of money on a nose job are people who have been considering it for a while anyway. Can I interrupt and say that? Yeah. My best friend, DMD you on Instagram,

to ask about your nose job because she wants on so badly and she loves your nose so much. Yeah. And it's actually really empowering for her. Yeah. Because I think that's the other thing is for a lot of people that's really in the dark. And it's like, no one just wakes up one morning

and it's like, oh, it's like huge surgery on my face. because someone on Instagram, you know, like has it. You do it because you've got your own private relationship with your own appearance. Yeah. And I think like even before what you're saying, like that comment about like people saying, well, it's what made you unique and stuff. I actually think the comments about people's face and I only have it because I haven't had anything. I mean, I get me Botox.

Like it's time, but I haven't had anything in my face before. But my face surgery, the surgery that I had which broke my jaw, I ended up after that would like and I didn't diagnose I'm diagnosing it myself with like I don't think it exists I don't know but face dysmorphic no I think I think I feel like it does exist and if it doesn't it should because I remember the way that you spoke about what you went through after that I like yeah I could I could I could really I could really feel that from you because you know I could so many people I think because my sister when she had that surgery her face changed a lot and it was it was hard for her to me my sister has special needs so it's

it's kind of different in that respect but she but it was also it was very difficult for her so the scene you go through that was was you know it was it was hard it was hard to watch you know it's even like I didn't choose this surgery but you know it's my mom's argument again about the hangover like it doesn't matter how you get that the fact is it's a really personal thing to change your body or to have your body change in any way and I think people's comments are really interesting like I didn't want to be told that I look better before or better afterwards because I'm like and if anything, tell me I look better afterwards, because that's good for morale.

But when people are like, oh, I really liked how you looked before and I'm like, right, but I couldn't breathe before. Yeah, exactly. If this face or nothing. Yeah. Do people really say that? Yeah. That's awful.

Also, I'm sorry, that really annoys me. I hate that. Like, my favorite comments are when people say, gorgeous before, gorgeous after. Always gorgeous. And you're like, yay. Yeah. I just, I think it's, and it may be it's well-intentioned

and I don't know what it is, but I think people that, like, instinctively whenever they've had whenever and I think it's like a woman thing of like trying to make somebody feel better about themselves yeah just like put this like massive like misguided bandaid on something to be like but you were so pretty and it's just like no I feel like saying saying that you were better before or you looked so pretty before and you've had something done permanently to change yourself that is never a positive thing that is always that is one of those like veiled like negs I was just about to say honestly I don't but I don't believe it I don't I don't I don't believe

that that's ever them trying to be. I think it's them having a bit of a dig whilst trying to come across as being nice. Like that's, that's, yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, I am lacking in common sense, but like that is very clear to me that like, why the fuck would you say that? Yeah.

To someone. Yeah, I know. I agree with you. I think it's like, yeah, it's a dig veiled. Exactly. Oh, but you were so pretty. And I also think sometimes people do it. Like, if you take a nose job, for example,

like if you don't like your nose, it's so easy. Like, I didn't like my nose to just be like to you, well I liked it better before or you look great before because that makes me feel better oh my god this so my friend she she had a boob job and she'd been really insecure she's 30 as well and she finally made the decision this year to do it and she got like so much shit from girls who were like I always looked up to you because you were part of the itty bitty titty committee and now you've like left and joined all these other girls and blah blah blah blah and like

you know it's just really disappointing and you know I just feel really sad that you'd decided to do that and it's like you know what like it's you're really projecting your own issues and that's the thing and I think and I I know full well how other people watching other people get surgeries can sometimes impact me and like you know those are these girls I follow on Instagram these sisters and I found out that they'd had BBLs and I was always like their bodies are like really amazing like natural like like curves whatever and then I found out they'd had very very very very subtle BBLs and after finding that out I just unfollowed them because I was just that I just it's making me feel bad about myself

and I do feel like we kind of have to have a bit of responsibility as consumers to unfollow what like makes us feel uncomfortable because I knew that when I mean I lost followers when I came out about my surgeries like every both times and I think even when I said I mentioned about my boobs I think I lost followers and I just I always was new that that is something that's going to happen

because people are either going to be like I don't agree with what you've done I don't agree with surgery or that's made me feel a certain way about myself and I don't like that so I'm going to unfollow you and that's so fine that's the best thing

yeah exactly go unfollow you've spotted your own like boundaries your triggers whatever like go yeah yeah yeah what makes me laugh about your friend is like

the audacity of some people to just think that like this this woman owes me her appearance like yeah I know did you not know that you made me feel better so now you've done something

and it makes me feel worse what are you gonna do about it yeah yeah completely agree i know it's crazy it's really weird because i think it's like it's it's something it is always such a difficult subject to kind of like work out like what's the right thing and what's the best approach to to kind of go down as someone with a platform and for me i was just like leading up to my surgery with my hairline i was like i have got three options it's like i either own it and i just tell everyone and just like post about it and then i just move on either i don't tell anyone and I keep it a secret and people then might ask me, you look different.

What have you done? Why is your forehead smaller? Oh my God, are you wearing like a little like baby wig or something like that? Like, what are you doing? And then I have to then be either ignore them or lie or tell them the truth and then the truth gets out anyway. Or the third thing, I don't get the surgery even though that's what I really want to do for myself. And I don't get the surgery because I'm worried about the impact it has on other people and worried about maybe having to lie to others about it but then but then I'm not living my life for me I'm living my life for other people and I think that's one thing that people do need to kind of understand as well that you've got to do what's best for you by you and that's yeah I think that's kind of like it was like for me it was a

no-brainer like those three options it was a no-brainer which one I was going to pick so yeah it's really weird because like you say before like sitting on the fence because I don't think I do sit on the fence in that I think everybody should have cosmetic surgery if they want it because if it makes you feel good if anything makes you feel good and you're not having anyone else then do it but then I also think about like

the Love Islanders and how they've all had enhancements and how they're becoming so commonplace and people are getting them so young and I can't balance and I'm not asking you to balance because it's not your job to answer it but I always, that's where I like

I can't quite like make my things make the two things true that will work yeah no I know it's but then I think this is the thing. I think it's because it's such an incredibly nuanced like conversation and there absolutely is no like black and white with it and I feel like it's okay to feel like oh this might feel a bit uncomfortable like for example there's certain surgeries that I don't think are really like exactly good ones like you know for example you know people

who get the like fox eye thread lift or the like you know eyebrow lifts to make them look more exotic when they're you know like a very typical like white western person that for me seems like they're kind of tapping in to look like more exotic and another culture and I don't think that's really right whereas it like same for people who get really dramatic BBLs to look a certain way and it's like you're kind of like appropriating black culture and profiting of that like kind of like the Kardashians I guess and that's a whole different kind of topic and it's just I don't know like it's but then I also then think that if if you want to have a surgery and like it's going to make you feel so much better about yourself, then, then, then do it. And it's very,

it's such a complex issue. And I think that I do feel that everyone who gets surgery should be offered therapy first. And with my nose and my forehead, I was offered therapy as well. It's kind of like as a standard. But when I had my boobs on, I don't know if it was just because like, because I went to my GP about it at first, being like, I'm really insecure and like I is really getting me down. And like my chest looks like this and blah blah blah I was never offered like therapy in any way was never put on a wait list to talk up to a counselor whereas now I think had I done that I probably would have been because like talking about the mental health aspect of it all wasn't a thing back then like it really kind of wasn't this was 10 years ago so it wasn't really a thing but I think now there are

those options to at least help support you and I think if you're going to go down the surgery route you have to be incredibly aware. I think you need to be very aware of the things that are at play with why do I want this surgery? Am I doing this for me? Is it safe? All these things. There are so many things.

And I, these are questions that I would ask myself endlessly. And, you know, I definitely consider myself a feminist. But I, when I was having my nose job, I was Googling endlessly. Am I a bad feminist for having a nose job? Because I was just like, am I? and I the way that the kind of conclusion that I came to was that like we we live in this like patriarchal society where we have this beauty standards set by the patriarchy that are essentially upheld by people who adhere to the beauty standards like myself like I do unfortunately feed into that

and help like hold that up but you've also then got to take yourself and into it and look at it on a personal level and how these things back to you and the way I saw it was I was like, okay, what's worse? I choose not to have this no job, which I know is going to make me very happy because I want to say a big fuck you to the patriarchy and, you know, beauty standards. And then I go to spend the rest of my life being like, I hate my nose, I hate my nose, I hate my nose, I hate my nose, like, you know, just as a middle finger to the patriarchy. Or do I say, okay, I understand that by having the surgery, I'm kind of playing into these beauty standards set by the patriarchy. But instead of being unhappy and not getting this surgery, I'm just going to own it and have the

surgery anyway. Like, what's a bigger fuck you to the patriarchy? Actually sitting there and being unhappy with my nose for the rest of my life or having the surgery and being like, yes, I'm really glad I changed this because it's actually changed my life. It makes me feel really confident. What's the lesser of two evils there? And I think it was going down the surgery route. And I think it's always just such a personal decision. I feel always so passionate about it because it's just something that I think I think people just need to talk more openly about what their insecurities are whether it's to their friends or whether it's to like partners or doctors therapists whatever I think they need to be more open about like their insecurities and then

what and tap into why they want to change them and also like for me these insecurities were things that were very like they I had them for a long long long time it wasn't just like a surgery a trend surgery it's not like I was just hopping on like a like get like a permanent change for the sake of a trend it was always something that had affected my like sort of like the way I looked at myself for a long time do you know the expression chopping off your nose despite your face because that feels really appropriate yeah it's so true my mom's really coming through me in this episode of like all of our expressions yeah yeah yeah it is yeah like you cut off your nose to spite your face like that's kind of yeah so it's it's a tough but I think it's

really interesting to hear you talk about that tension between knowing that you want to change something in order to look more like the standard of beauty and at the same time wanting to like give the middle finger fuck you to that standard of beauty and I guess this is like what what it's sad that we even have to think about this it is sad that this has to be like a because men don't they just go and get it they just go and get it right they wouldn't have to think about the politicisation of their nose they'd just go out and fix their nose. I have to think am I still feminist like it's yeah sitting on Google at like one in the morning feeling guilty am I still a feminist if I want a nose job like yeah but I really like that even in terms of like

how you work sorry to interest you even in terms of like everything that you do online because and I say this with all love because you know I admire you loads but I just I think you're such a contradiction in terms of what society says that influencers are and what people who are into Chanel are and like and people who like just are even attractive to then like be also with a brain and a political stance and big opinions and whatever and it's like it feels like it's what you're saying before about the box because it's like you're on Instagram kind of on your grid you're like fashion and and and a lot of people would just lead that and be like oh well she talks about clothes to this probably nothing to her and your story is so thought provoking and

thoughtful and like interesting and it's like that's really fun because that just feels in itself like a like a fuck you to yeah I yeah definitely and I really I love I love that about what I do and I remember when I was when I was studying my master's degree my tutor was like people always gonna overlook you he was like people will always overlook you they'll take one look at you and think that you're just a little bit of a bimbo but he was like you have so much to offer and you'll spend the rest of your life proving like yourself and to people your Instagram's Elwood Instagram. Yeah, I love that film so much

and I always watch it and I'm like, I really personally relate to this. I am jacked. But yeah, I do. I think it's, and I just think that we are very, I think especially like, it's social media on Instagram, on TikTok, whatever,

we're very, very quick to judge people. And I think a lot of judgment that we have of others often comes like, actually it's a reflection of the judgment that we have for ourselves a lot of the time. And I think if we could just like maybe whenever, every time we judge someone and I mean, I still judge people all the time.

But then I have to, I actually like actively question myself and I'm like, why am I judging this person? What have they really done? Why has this provoked something in me that's made me feel uncomfortable? And perhaps this is years of being in therapy, which has made me do this. But it's kind of like the self-awareness that I have.

And I always try and like reckon with these feelings when I have it. And I feel that like obviously not everyone, not everyone does that because I get like comments and messages and things all the time where people either just haven't really thought about what they're saying or they simply don't care and they just want to be a troll like TikTok for example TikTok's so weird like TikTok is such a different place like it's so weird it's like it's savage but also at the same time like I don't think things as personally over there which is really weird so it feels like they don't know you exactly it's because they're judging you based on a seven second thing

and it's like so I feel that when someone sends a message to an Instagram story that a really long message and like I know that obviously you guys know this all too well when you get like an Instagram like a response and someone sending this whole like character assassination and there's someone who's like I used to follow you and I loved following you and blah blah blah now I think this it makes you really think oh my god shit like are they is there something right in that whereas if someone just says oh like you're a stupid slut on like a on a ticot video on a seven second ticot video it's like cool okay cool bro yeah i know like i just i find it easy to not take things as seriously on there so it's a bit it's it's very weird i always feel like

also like my my my content i've ever posted around surgery over on ticot goes viral whereas i can like kind of if i speak about it on instagram i feel like i can make a joke of it on ticot more and just like have fun with it and laugh about it and own it more because weirdly enough it's a safer space to just be like whatever this is what i've done whereas i do feel like on instagram speaking about this thing this kind of thing feels very politicized and people are more likely to pull and like pull it what you've said and things like that and yeah it's it can be a bit of a weird one to navigate but at least that's kind of like that's why i probably posted more about it on TikTok because I was like it feels like weirdly a status base for it. So funny that when you drew

your own hairline. I know. I was like she's lost it. I know. That was it. Yeah, I was in quarantine for 10 days in Jakarta and I was so bored that I drew on my dream hairline using a refi brow pencil and I even like drew the part in on and everything. And I was like, I know this looks really stupid. But actually, if this was my own hairline, it would look really good. And I looked at that video the other day and I was like wow that actually is my hairline now I kind of manifested it yeah I manifested it so yeah but I don't know I think it's for me the whole topic of like surgery and everything the responsibility that I feel that I have and I know people look at me like they're like oh you're like I follow you because you're authentic and you're honest and open and then there is that

big contradiction that obviously surgery is seen as being this big fake thing you are very honest and open about it. You had the thread lid, and you hated it. It's the worst thing ever. And you shared it so honestly, that was so important to see. And I think like a lot of the comments that come in the direction of people who have surgery or like, and it's really like load to use ridiculously simplistic terms. But like I think it kind of be frustrating for people to see a woman have it all.

and there is something brave about going out and changing your face and changing this and changing that because it's like a lot of people have insecurities and feel a certain way about things but they don't do anything about it there's some things that maybe I think that I'd want right and for a plethora of reasons I just won't do it I'm kind of lazy I think I'd be scared I'd be scared of all the reasons that you said I'd be scared to do it on Instagram I'd be scared to I'd be just scared and I probably wouldn't be fucked and legs wouldn't do it so I'm going to sit in that negative well I'm going to sit in the space of being like oh should I would or could it and it would have been really easy for me then to look at somebody else and you do

have I love following your Instagram because I feel like you just what you want you do you do and it's a really quick thing of like I love this I'm going to buy it and I'm going to wear it and I'm going to look great and I'm going to look great and I'm going to do this and you just do things and you're just one of life to do us it as a Virgo trait you know yeah I know you both do shit all the time but I just like I don't do things the same way yeah but it's great it's so fun and I don't I sit on things for like my life yeah then i'll go i don't know i'll go for Botox and then i'll be like oh you're 72 years late like you should have come in you're on your death then you're like you're like i think it's time

now to do something about these wrinkles and i just never will do it but i think like that's the thing i think a lot of people sit and and whether we'll whether that's a right feeling or not like i think a lot of us have it whereas it's just like it is brave to go and do that stuff but we also feel like women can't have it all and i think when you go out and you're already a beautiful person you go and make yourself more societally attractive but then you also have a brain and you also earn your own money it can be really jarring for people to watch it and be like she doesn't need all of this she's smart she's bright she's got a nice house she's got a nice this she doesn't need to go and look prettier do you know what i mean like i think that's where a lot of people's internalized

stuff comes from i have a question for you guys do do you think that british people tend to be quite salty towards people going out and improving themselves yes we're crabs yeah i was just about to say the crab mentality yeah the crab bucket yeah and they call it tall tall poppy syndrome in Australia like you cut you cut down the tallest no tallies yeah if you've got a bucket full of crabs yeah and one crab is got out and he's like climbed to the top and he's holding the edge the other crabs in the bucket will pull him back down again because the crabs don't want to see look at me as a cancer um yeah you're like crabs are my people yeah yeah you're like down here with me bitch rotting together um but yeah they'd sooner they'd sooner kill their friends so that he'd die

and be miserable with them. Yeah, exactly. That is British. It is. It really, really is. And I think that, you know, I've got quite, I've got quite a few friends. Yeah, I've got quite a few friends in America and they're like, oh yeah, if they want to, they want a surgery. They're like, oh, yeah, I'm going to go out and get this done or like, oh, like, I'm going to have this treatment and I'm going to try this and I'm going to, I really like this. So I'm going to go out and get lipo. And I'm like, oh, my God, like, what? And I don't like my boobs. I'm going to get them done like, like lifted and done smaller, whatever. Like, and they just kind of own it. And that's just how it is and I'm like sometimes I'm like would it would would society be better if we

were more like that or would it be like would it be worse but either way I do think that we have in the UK we have a bit of an issue with people going out there and bettering themselves like even if it's anything like anything aesthetically anything when it comes to finances like when I when I posted about the other day about how I had a meeting with a mortgage advisor uh I lost loads of followers because people were like, what? I thought that you were always going to rent. You said that you were always going to be generation rent and you always, you were happy renting.

Like, why have you changed on us? And I was just like, oh, because I'm planning on, I don't know, like my life has changed a bit. And I have decided that maybe it's the best option. I haven't said I'm definitely going to do it. And I lost loads of followers that day. I was like, oh, oh, wow. And people, I don't think, I think people do have an issue

with what's seeing people better themselves in whatever way that is. But then also at the same time, the flip side of this, they have every single right like we were saying. They have every single right to unfollow the things

and the people that don't serve them. But I think doing that is fine, but we always have to be a bit more introspective than that and kind of look within and be like, why has this made me feel uncomfortable? Like, yeah, I think that's something that we've kind of always got to do. And I don't think British people are very good at doing that.

I'm going to get like hunted out of this country with like torches and pitchfalls after this. but I do think this is like about trigger warnings and content warnings and stuff like this like we have so many of them nowadays like everything we look at is like trigger warning content warning and actually I just okay I'm opening an absolute kind of worms here this is a really really if you get a really big topic but we're onto a good thing here and I do think you have to be careful with your triggers and you definitely have to manage your triggers but also I think being introspective

and maybe having a bit of like a reflection on like why is this triggering me obviously it's different for I got shit last night for talking about tonsil stones without putting a trigger warning up no

I said that I was I always get acid reflux I'm often like sick in the middle of the night and I said I was sick in the middle of night and I got so many people and I can't remember what the phobia is yeah yeah I was like

if I do this If I go down this road, I will put trigger warning on every self-sense or everything. At the end of the day, you have to go into the world and, like, manage your own triggers. What do you do when you go out and watch a film at the cinema and someone's sick, like in the film? Like, you know, it's part of the movie and you don't, you can't expect that. It's your responsibility. Yeah, and it is. And this is, because I had, I, there's a surgeon that I follow who's based in America.

And he does, he did mark Jacobs face lift and it was amazing. And I, I shared one of his before and afters and was like, this surgeon is a magician. Wow. and he's like and basically this girl like sent me a message and it was actually really sad because she's been a really long time follower of mine and she was like hey babe like I just want to let you know this I found this like I found um she said this profile of this this picture this before and after of this surgeon and I ended up clicking on his page and going down a black hole looking at all these before and afters and as somebody who's never wanted cosmetic surgery before I found it

really triggering and that it made me want cosmetic surgery for the first time in my my life. It's made me feel really insecure about myself. So I just thought I would let you know that's how it made me feel because it might make other people feel that way. And I was just like, I just don't think you should follow me. I speak really openly about cosmetic surgery and all of this stuff. And I just don't think I'm the right person for you. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then she was like, oh, okay, I'd kind of hope that you were going to like reply saying something else and be a bit more apologetic, but don't worry about it. Like, I understand where you're coming from. and for now I'm gonna unfollow and I was just like okay cool but I was quite rattled by it I was

thinking like why why am I being held responsible for you clicking onto that Instagram account and going down a black hole of like of of you know I didn't make you click on it I shared a piece of content I didn't feel like it needed a trigger warning you know trigger warning before and after surgery trigger warning facial self improvement like what was I meant to put it when you put a trigger warning to an extent I understand you know on a on a on a on a mass level let's say eating disorder yes great or violence or blood sexual abuse there are some things that very visceral triggers which I completely understand but in a case like that it's like what are you warning people about yeah what was her exact emotion you've got no idea yeah exactly and she's been like seven post

deep that she got triggered yeah well that's the thing because she said she went down a black hole she's like I clicked onto the page and I went down a black hole and felt really triggered so I said to her I was like I did say I said I was just like, I was like, I do think we're grown adults here and we need to take responsibility for the way that we consume, like social media and consume content online. And I think, you know, you said that you went down the black hole and you clicked through it. I was like, I didn't make you do that. You chose to do it. When people share things, before I had a nose job, right, I wanted one so badly, but I was telling myself, like, I was like, no, you don't want one. You'll find the way you are. You're great the way you are. Like, you know, you're all this stuff, all the self-talk, whatever. And I kept being so. of nose jobs on my explore feed, like loads of before and after. Were you saying it out loud? Yeah, probably.

My nose is amazing. I don't need a nose job. But basically, yeah, my explore feed on Instagram was showing me all these before and afters. So I just kept going, click, not interested, not interested. I unfollowed people that went and got surgery because it made me feel bad

because I was taking responsibility for how I felt. Instead of being like, you're living your life in a way that I don't like and makes me feel bad, you need to change it. I was like, okay, I feel bad about this and this is making me feel like worse, I need to do something about that. Like, I don't think it's always as simple as that because there are dickheads out there on the internet that do post like actually very toxic things.

But like, but like, it's also so disempowering to then, for like that girl to say, oh, but like you triggered this in me. It's like actually, it's fully in our hand. Okay, and maybe not fully. To an extent what we consume is, is our choice and in our hands and in our control. so you just it's yeah I know it is really it is really

so then it's disempowering to be like oh you trick it like that triggered me like you I know yeah I know and like I just think there's a way I just feel like we like people probably need to be maybe a little bit some people need to be a bit more self-aware of these things and I do you know I think as well like people people give me shit for it

because I think they think that I'm younger than I am and they're like oh my god you're so like you're too young to be having things like this and I'm like I'm 30 and they're like oh okay but even then it's like but it's like says who too young for like yeah we can have private opinions about you know young people having surgery if we want yeah but at what point is it our problem it isn't yes you know you have to work that out like what is this going to cause and i think we can look at a societal problem right and we can look at the Kardashians for example and be like okay it has they probably and i i said in last week's episode i'm i've become a stand so like i have to choose my words

carefully I've taken a real turn I started watching the Kardashians on oh my god really I mean I have I don't I I'm just like very on the fence I was always on the fence but like no I've I've basically decided that like they're victims of that I mean which everyone's always said like I haven't had a revolutionary idea but they're victims of of the society that like yeah they've helped to create it but again doesn't matter how you got there the fact is they're still victims so leading with empathy i i do feel i'm like very aware of their like yeah their their own situation but i think societally you can look at a look at perhaps what they're inspiring what love and love island's inspiring to an extent what instagram's inspiring and yeah maybe it is creating more insecurities

and maybe as a result of that surgery rates arising you know we're hearing all the time like surgeons are getting photos of like girls with filters on their faces being yeah i want to look like this filter and i think like we have we have to independently look at a systemic and societal issue and be like this is a problem here that we are making worse and worse but individually we have to accept that what other people choose to do because of this expectation and because of the societal pressure is literally nothing to do with us yeah and you can like tackle you know go into education and get girls feeling better about themselves and get it so that they're not bullied for their noses and they're not bullied for their foreheads and they're not bullied for whatever it is so maybe they

don't have beauty standards exactly so you tackle that but right now the people that are bettering themselves within a very toxic sagality. Yes, yes. This is what we always talk about is like and I say this all the time but it's like you can do self-love like for years and years and years and years and years, yes, until you're blue in the face

until the cows come home, whatever. But at the end of the day you are living in this world that doesn't reflect those values back at you that still is telling you, okay, well you think okay you think you're okay with yourself but actually you should be more this, you should be more that. Yeah. So you can't blame anyone And I do, it's a point of contention with the Kardashians, though,

because I feel that at this point, they are fully victims of their environment and what they've been through. But at this point, they are so aware of the effect that they've had, and yet they continue to perpetuate it. And I just think, come on. Yeah. I'm going to be honest, I'm only on season nine, so I can't come in. They're still, like, quite far in. That's like, not many in 2014.

Instagram's literally brand new. Oh, my God. Wow. I don't realize it's been on for that long. Yeah, so I actually was saying this in the last episode. I should just record a minute ago, but in the last episode. Because I wanted, because I've been slagging them for years, I was like, I just want to better understand.

Yeah. And it's actually really interesting watching the time of Instagram because Kim, they've just gone on holiday, listen to me. I know everything. This is my first for A into reality TV. I'm loving it. But Kim does a selfie book for Kanye and they rip the shit out of her for taking selfies

because she'd like never done it before and they literally close to take a dinner and just take another selfie Kim like they're all like calling her vacuous and whatever and it's just like you have no idea what your future oh my god that's so weird

like what must be watching that and being like from the future being like oh my god they're on their black freeze originally they took their on camera to dinner every night and when they went on their holidays they took their nick on camera

that was like how they got their pictures it's so funny oh my god I'm obsessed but they didn't even go on Instagram they just went on their blog with their tumblers and then Kim made this selfie book for Kanye and now they've just got their Instagrams just and they're kidding they're like I'm gonna Instagram this and they're like Kim don't and then that's that and it's like it's actually that would be interesting that is yeah

that is really like interesting wow and also even watching like Chloe like and it's actually very yeah I don't care so much but it's really breaking my heart like no it's bad watching how she was and how she looks now and it's like but I I can't see her as anything other than a victim like I can't think they just call her the fat sister the whole time the girls the other girls call it all the media yeah yeah and it's just like it's so toxic it's cruel it's so cruel it's cruel and actually like I'm so with you on that and Chloe and like what she's been through not only not just like only with the public but like her family yeah I posted something last night where she was like Chris was saying like it would be great if you could stop talking about food in your interviews and Chloe was like

basically you're saying that I'm the fucking fat one that's fucking and everything up and Chris was like not quite in those words but like it's like fuck what she's been through but then I just my my my my empathy sort of wanes when it gets to him and I just think at some point you have to ask like does she actually care probably not I don't think she does but then also take it back does she have to and I know that's a really bad question but then but then I think people should be allowed to call her out on it yeah yeah yeah yeah totally agree the Kardashians yeah there are there's that all of them such a mindfield of a of a thing and this because you know what it's one of these things that when I posted recently about I was actually quite drunk when I did the

Instagram story I was like oh I put like a question box and I was like um half a bottle of rosé deep and I don't really drink anymore so that for me is pretty drunk what's like everyone's opinions on the apparent of like Kim and Chloe apparently reversing their BBLs just to get people's opinions and the amount of people who just want to be like who even cares and I was just like that's actually like we shouldn't really care but we do we do like we you can't ignore the fact that how much these these women like the weight that they hold in in like in society and pop culture you know like you can't you can't yeah look at you what's happened guys I love them I'm tit deep I'm like how does this happen it's really weird you're gonna be coming in wearing

like skims and you'll have like dyed your hair like long and dark when I tried skims god I got a lot of shit oh did you try them as the the thing and they they just rolled down yes they oh i used i actually had a whole highlight on my instagram about it but then i deleted it because like apparently it doesn't look too good to be slagging them off so so much but i had a whole high because they just they just roll they roll down and they just go they just go up your butt and oh oh they're coming in half i was like the fuck is this shit i had to pixelate when i put it on instagram i had to pixelate my fan it was really yeah it was so bad and people were like maybe you just need a bigger size and i was just like they're a size medium

Eventually, people kept saying that because it hit the algorithm, annoyingly, the only video of mine in the last, like, six months that's had a million views. Oh, the skim's thing. And they kept rolling back down. Not, I mean, maybe it's a mini problem. Like, I'll take that out with Kim Kardashian. But all the comments were just like, she got so big. I'm like, you're a fucking moron.

But okay, thanks. Yeah. I know. Yeah, yeah. I know. I feel very, like, strongly about her. Yeah, but certainly because April, who we work with love skins. And she was like, you've to buy it, you've to buy it.

So I bought a bunch. Yeah. Oh, see, I've got some, I've got some things from skims and I'm like, that's great. But then I've got like, these particular, the control pant things were just doing nothing. They were like, they were just giving me like this like roll bunch underneath my outfit. And I was like, well, what's the point? And they were expensive. I was going to say, it's really expensive, isn't it?

I still have the two pairs. I've never felt sad. So do I. I've never felt sad at looking at myself in the mirror. Ever. I was like, fuck. I look like a mushroom. Like it's so bad.

It's so bad. Yeah, but I also got the shorts that I wore them to my hendoo And they have completely see-through They're like ribbed shorts to wear under my dress And I was a photo of me flashing Because I thought I had shorts on But it went with the flash, I think you took it And I was like, oh my God

That's funny That's an eye for yeah So yeah, as a consumer I'm not like massively enamored But I'm on the way I know the dresses I know the dresses I saw someone wearing a dress in the day Oh I realize she's got dresses Oh they have like really nice dresses

And they do like look really good on the body But then once again it's like this is one of the issues that like people said they were like was Kim Kardashian the right person to create a brand that represents and I say this in quotation marks every body was she the right person to do it and people obviously argue no she's not she said so many surgical enhancements on her body she definitely was not the right person to do that but I just think that at the end of the day like if anyone's going to do it like it's any celebrity was going to gonna probably maybe make that brand,

they've probably had something done that we just don't know about. Like, also, do you know what? I don't, I agree with it. I just think, I don't really care like whatever she. Yeah. And if she actually's doing good with her brand, then great. But it just pissed me off, like the campaign imagery for skims,

like she did with all those supermodels and everyone's Photoshopped a fuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Tyra Banks, I think even said, like, what is, this is not my body. That's actually a really good, like, difference there in, like, in terms of, terms of what you do like you you have your surgeries and whatever and so i guess people can come to you

come at you for that but the authenticity of what you do online is beyond just the surgeries it's like everything with the fashion you showed the skims with it falling down and you don't know anybody relatable but it's really nice it's like we were saying right at the beginning about like traditional fashion influences and i think like when we imagine them same when i imagine the condashions i imagine that like everything arrives everything that you order arrives and everything fits and you just look really good and you know when people do the like reels and And it's like, keep or return. And the ones that people return always look really nice.

They just don't like the dress. Whereas I'm like, the ones I have to return, like, don't do art or like make me look like a bowel bun or like whatever. And it's really nice. You know what I mean? You're like, this question. But you talk about it. So like authentically in there. And it's really nice to see like a sort of, yeah, like authenticity.

And I think that's what a lot of the, because you don't have to be open about everything that you do. But it does. It's very nice. watch when someone it is. My mom's like, Sophie, you really need to just not, even my therapist was like, you don't have to be this open about everything, you know. And I was like, I know, but I really overshare everything. Like, I don't. It's almost like I'm too honest. It's just, it's actually it is to my detriment sometimes. But like, I just can't, I just, I find it hard to like, to, to not tell people the truth. Like, I can, I can hold on to anyone else's gossip and drama

and secrets. I will take them to the grave. But when it's my own, I'm telling everyone. one. I will tell everyone about anything. I can't bear a half truth. Like even if I say like, I got there at 1 30 and I'll be sitting there and I'll be like, I said that. I didn't get there at 1 30. I got there at 1. Yeah. And people are like, I don't give a shit. I'm like, I don't want to be lying. I know. I hate lying. Even if it's like the most and not cute. And I don't do big life because I get busted immediately. Which is like on Instagram, like I just can't, I hate lying. Yeah. I was so nervous ahead of my surgery. I did a, I like you. I did that massive like, I apologize. I was like, I'm apologising for this. I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm going to

I've had my face smashed in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah, I was like really apologetic about it. It's really weird. Yeah, I know. I think that's why like when people, I felt, I felt really guilty for the years that people kept being like, have you had a boob job? Have you had a boob job?

And then this one girl, she messes, she messed me being like, oh, like, babe, like, I'm trying to, it's really weird. She's like, oh, and just, she was, I was trying to find out, like, whether your boobs are real or not because, like, she's like, I've really been contemplating getting a boob job and that yours look really good. She's like, and I googled it, and I came across this four. where they were discussing it and like there was no like real answer and I was just like oh great okay so it's been discussed on the forums like you know it's just one of those things and I was just like oh my

god and I was just yeah it was really it was really weird and I never had any issue telling anyone like straight up if they message me I was just like yeah like I had a move job whatever so that I was like you know what copy and paste that and put it in the forums don't care like I don't I don't care but it was just more that I don't want to make a big song and dance out of it for like you know whatever reason like that all the reasons i had but it's like going back to the whole like aspect of um kind of like body image and and surgery for me i kind of like i was talking i was talking i was talking to my life coach and she was really great and she said that i i'd been like suffering a lot with body image issues like this year like a lot a lot and i think in part

it was probably due to coming off my antidepressants and she was like oh i would probably put like face and having face surgery alongside body image and i was like i personally would because I don't cry over my face every day whereas my body I cry over my body every single day and like I have like a really weird toxic relationship with my body but my face I'm like yeah she's great I could make an improvement on it but you know like it's not an issue so that's kind of why like for me I made this like real big decision that I would not have anything done to like my body because my boobs are due to I need to kind of like they're 10 years old I need to get them redone realistically but I was just like I need to wait until like I'm mentally in a better place before

I touch my body like like surgically because I just I just need to let it exist and I think that's the thing and I think a lot of people probably go to surgeons when they're feeling in a really really dark place about their body and I think that's why therapy can definitely really help kind of create that balance before going straight to a surgeon and being like I want to get this work done and I want to do this and I want to change all this it kind of gives you that breathing space to actually step back and look and be like no you know what I need to work on my mind before I change anything about my body and that's the important thing and I feel in a really good place about that because I was definitely like I went through a phase and I was like I just

want to go to Turkey and get everything sucked out of me and blah blah blah blah and now I'm in a much healthier place where I'm like no like I don't because I'm fine I'm just myself now so so yeah it's definitely it's just one of those subjects that's always going to be all over the place that's actually a really good point like people go to their surgeons people go to surgeons when they're in a really dark space like when they're in the like the the the pit yeah whereas actually probably that's not the right time to do anything about it and a good surgeon will a good surgeon will recognize that and hopefully not operate on you like that's what I would say like if a if a if a surgeon if I've ever been to a surgeon and they've been like you could also do this this and this and this that's a red flag

for me and I've walked out the door whereas if I've just been like I kind of want to do this and then they just talk to me about whatever that is like you know I kind of don't like this about my forehead and they just like okay tell me about it and you just chat about that then that's then that for me is a massive green flag so but when they try and like upsell on the surgery because they're then creating and adding to insecurities you already have and that's messed up so yeah and that's just money making like which is scary as well with that whole industry so you're gonna have to come back and talk to us about that side of things but yeah for now we run out of time but if you come back oh my god I love to I have so many more questions I know it's such a big topic

I feel like there's just so many things that you can just kind of like, yeah. I went a bit of rape with the Kardashians, took up a bit of valuable time. I shouldn't. No, I feel like they're always relevant to this conversation though, always. I knew I knew I was doing work, but I was watching it. I was researching the podcast. I knew we were going to talk for too long on this one. I know, I have so many more questions.

We'll write them down and you've got to come back. If you want to come back, obviously. You don't have to come back. You have to come back. But don't worry. No worries if not. We really want it, but also we won't be like hot. I mean, we will be a bit hot,

No worries if not, because I would always be happy to come back. Also the thing is like my toxic trait is saying no worries when in fact I mean all the worries. Okay, well we're going to go and worry a lot now but thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you guys. Thanks for having me on. Thank you so much for listening. Should I delete that is part of the ACALTA creator network.