Should I Delete That? - Charlie Craggs: ‘Trans rights and women’s rights can co-exist’

Episode Date: May 29, 2023

In this week’s episode, Em and Al are joined in the studio by Charlie Craggs, a British transgender actress, activist, and author from London. Charlie talks about her recent experience in court, where she was fighting a trans hate crime. She talks about how she was misgendered in court, and how the court handled her case by letting her attacker off, and what message this sends. From this, Charlie is setting up free self defence classes for trans women, to ensure other trans people feel safe in public. The three discuss activism online and the media’s role in the debate around trans rights. NOTES: Self Defence Classes for Trans People Go Fund Me: https://www.gofundme.com/f/free-self-defence-classes-for-trans-peopleCharlie’s book ‘To My Trans Sisters’: https://www.amazon.co.uk/My-Trans-Sisters-Charlie-Craggs/dp/1785923439Charlie’s IG: https://www.instagram.com/charlie_craggs/?hl=enCharlie’s BBC3 documentary: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p093wyx7Follow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy Grant & edited by Hattie MoirMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, listener. Before we start, we just want to let you know that this episode contains references to suicide and has some strong language. I travel around the UK with the pub up nails salon and I, sorry, I just got distracted because I saw you, look at your nails. You've got nice nails. I was thinking, like, what am I not doing right now? You're not nice nails as well. I've got to be what? Hello, everyone. Hello, we're going to do this GBA as if I haven't just been like crying to you for 35. It's before we started recording. Oh, happy days. It's become like a running joke that like whoever the director of my life is playing, that like all of my like mental health woes happen on a Friday.

So it's like on Instagram I'm like singing, dancing, jazz hands. And then in my personal life it's turmoil. That's so funny. For me, it's a Monday. It's always Mondays for me. That's classic. But yeah, that must be hard having to, like, show up on Instagram and be jazzy. It's show business, baby.

Okay, well, I won't ask how you are because we know it's not great. This is a very exciting week, though, for us. We had our live show, which you will be able to listen to it in full on Thursday. And it was absolutely epic. I can't believe it. I can't believe it worked. I can't believe it happened. I can't believe we didn't get heckled or booed

But we didn't It was seamless I don't think it was seamless But it worked Like Dave said it just worked Yeah Dave's review Was my favourite review He doesn't know why

But it just sort of works It was so good But honestly doesn't it feel like a dream Like maybe because Well I don't know I don't even know I have no It just feels like

So surreal It was so cool How terrifying before we went on, we went into the room to go and see how big the venue was, which was a very big mistake. Very, very big mistake. I think we were feeling all right until we did that. I don't know.

I don't think I don't. I don't think I wasn't. I don't think I wasn't. Every time I said I wasn't feeling okay, Alex was like, stop it, why? I was like, why? Like, every, I'd be like, oh, I'm nervous. You go, are you why? I mean, for context, the last live show that we did was 70 people, 80 people, I think. Yeah, yeah.

And this one was 400 people. So it was a pretty big jump. It was a big leap. It was a big leap. And it was like last time we were like all huddled in a bar and everyone was like really close together. And it was just like a really small intimate venue. And it was Christmas and people are a lot more forgiving at Christmas time.

Right. And this was a big venue with like individual uniform seats. I don't know why that scared me, but it did. I agree. I agree. They were like storm troopers. Yes. Yeah.

Seat troopers. intimidating. Very. Like the higgledy, piggledy, like, seats and stalls of last time just seemed more welcoming. I agree.

Humble. I don't know. I don't know. The moment we got on stage, I was like, okay, now I feel okay. It's fine. We can do this. Absolutely fine.

Yeah. But then, so last time we did it, you had really bad anxiety the next day and you were like, everybody hates us, this is a disaster. I'm quitting. I was like, okay.

And this, It didn't happen to me on Wednesday, but I think that's why I am so anxious. I've just been telling you for like, it's been like therapy, to be honest, for like 35 minutes. I'm so anxious. And I think it's because we had such a high high. And I just think when you're this full of hormones and little sleep, you shouldn't go that high because to every action, there is an equal and something reaction. Okay. I don't know that phrase by like it.

for every action there is an equal and something reaction anyway to go up you must come down fine so as high as you go you know that you're going to be matched at some point and I think I went too high I'm like Icarus I flew too close to the sun and my wings got burned

so I was fine on Wednesday because I think I was just so delirious still and I was on like absolutely like no sleep because we were having a sleep regret we we're having a sleep regression and yeah but then the last like Thursday and Friday I've been like woof like woof not only does everybody hate me but I hate me like it's been it's been bleak I mean I get it I well I don't get it because I I had it without it equal and opposite reaction equal and opposite reaction equal and opposite I've never heard that every action there'll be an equal and opposite reaction I like that yeah so the action of the very happy

day on the stage. I have to match my own like adrenaline and endorphins, but right at the other end. I'm actually reading a book about this, which is really interesting. Well, more specifically like dopamine, but then like if you get too much dopamine and too much pleasure, then your balance tips to play to pain. Like it just has to to restore balance. Because I think my way of existing now is I'm, I don't do things that give me the extreme highs. more like I used to and that used to be like binge drinking because that's the British culture but like you know you do like things like that and I think I'd be quite like manic in the things that I would do to get happiness because I was so highly strong because

I was so anxious and then running was actually really big part of it but going on my silly little walks and all of it like I leveled out binman always comes down the street when I'm doing this anyway but yeah so I kind of exist at a more consistent level and somehow even Whilst having a baby, it's been relatively consistent. The highs are the, like, but then, yeah, when I go too high or too low, then there'll be the other side. Yeah, then there'll be something on the other side. Humans are so annoying. Why can't we just live in ecstasy all the time?

Like, I want a euphoric life. Drugs. Drugs. I can't comment medium to long term. I don't think it would be great. But like the bank holiday, I could suggest an LSD or like... I could have a euphoric bank holiday. Yeah.

That's a good point. But you're just got to prepare yourself for a very... Dephoric. I like that. We'll make that. Yeah, like Tuesday would be very dephoric. Yes. Very, very bad.

Like, I get my joy. Like, the things that make me really happy in a day generally are like my silly little lattes, my little olive sticks. I just love my little olive stick. Like, looking at the pond. like the weather like these boring little things make me happy

which is good because then it means it's only like boring little things that make me occasionally sad do you know what I mean it makes my life sound so small I think that's a really nice way to live I don't know I've been learning about these three like different emotional systems

and like connection as well like the soothing hormones and like the that gives the like the low level of contentment that is what is like actual happiness maybe we're going to have to the no new friend rule permanently maybe you need loads of new connections well that's the thing everything i'm reading is like you've got to have connection you've got to have connection and like

i've kind of built my life around no no connection like as little connection as possible please i've isolated myself and now i have to backtrack on that is that what you're telling me 100% although having said that like i might like the mundane life but that is not what's in the cards for us because our other good is that we floated the idea of a live tour. Imagine the come down from a tour. I know. I know. I know, but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make. It would be really cool. I have climbed the top of these mountains and I have lighted the view.

So if that means a catastrophic crash and burn when I get home, so be it. So you've had a taste of the drug now and... That's it. And now we're going to just strive to get me. more of this drug. Okay, love it. Yeah, I've felt the applause. I can still hear an echoing in my ears. I can still feel the lights on me. That was definitely one of our goods. But yeah, we're going on tour. We're going to take it on tour. Details are undecided as of yet, but stay tuned and please, please come. My bad is just that for the first time in a very long time.

I'm just feeling really anxious. And I just, jokes aside, I think it is because we have the high. and I just think you just can't fuck with a new mother like that I think you've got to keep shit consistent Yeah yeah yeah With your lack of sleep It's just too much It's just a lot

And I've just got a lot going on Just like with just my life Like I mean I know it's just what being an adult is It's so annoying Weirdly it's not Arlo that overwhelms me at all I feel completely That bit is the one bit

That I feel completely right about And sure of Just everything else Everything else I can't know It's gone to shit We need a few good night's sleep for you I don't need a sleep I'd just like to have nothing to do for a few days

Can you do that this weekend? No not really But it's okay Yeah I think I have come back to work Face first And that's okay And I need to I don't get maternity leave

And it's great Like I love my job And I can bring a baby to work And again it's not like the hardest job in the world Like look we get to do so much amazing stuff together But I'd be lying if it said it wasn't If I said it was easy all the time It's just a lot

It's just a lot Like, you know, you're a full-time mom, but then the job was full-time before, and I'm kind of doing it at the same level. So, but I think that's just life. I think that's just motherhood. I think that's what they say, isn't it? You just, like, you just spend your life trying to find the balance. And also, it's intense at the moment because you're breastfeeding.

You know, things will ease up in that respect. You know, at some point, I'll go to nursery, and, you know, you'll have a lot more time on your hands. Yeah. And just, everything is fine. Like, I'm totally fine. And I'm still so happy. Yes, but you're also more than allowed to complain

Like it's very difficult, it's hard And it's tight exhausting Like you are definitely allowed to complain By Monday You're alive Yeah, yeah yeah and so darling And we're both Yeah

She's, I can't I don't know I'm fine She's very happy She's very happy Yeah she's healthy I'm going to say healthy and wealthy But I don't know what she's got

In terms of like liquid funds right now I don't know I can't comment this time her wealth. But she's got her health and her health is her wealth. Have you got anything bad? Um, no, no, I don't actually. No, no. Thank you. Anything awkward?

Sorry. I'm really happy for you. Um, I, I ate so much on that day, on the live show day. I ate so much and I realized, and I didn't really, I did realize this before. I think anxiety and stress makes people go one of two ways with food. You either don't eat at all or you eat a lot. And I felt sick the next day. It was just so sick because I'd just eaten so much.

I didn't stop eating that whole day. It was just like every time anyone looked at me, I was putting something in my mouth. Yeah, it's because you heard that, and we talk about this in the live show, but someone told you that you couldn't feel stressed and eat at the same time. I think someone told me that to make me feel better

because they just kept looking at me. It's not true. There's no way it's true. my awkward is also food related I was walking down the street today I having a protein shake for breakfast because that's what I do because I'm trying to get the nutrients in

you're a lot of protein shake thank you so much I was having a protein shake and I had it and then I left the house quickly and I was walking down the road and I was like oh what's that on my moustache and then it was like oh it's a bit of my protein shake

so I was like oh I better clear that up so I did a big like with my tongue like all the way around the top and I like licked my top lip and as I was doing it I realised I was stuck in a stare and there was a woman on the other end of that stare and I was just licking my lips

big. That's aggressive. Mm, all the way around. Really aggressive. Sinister. Incredibly sinister. So sinister. Just staring at her, licking my lips. I was like, well, this is horrifying. Eye contact is not the one. It's like when you're, it's like when you're like eating an ice cream, you know, like a like a twister or something and you just can't make eye contact with someone. I don't know. That was the same thing. Anything to eat a twister. They need to make vegan twisters. Is it not vegan?

No, I have never started a change.org or like a go-fund meet or a, like, yeah, like something to take to Parliament. But I feel like this might be the hill that I have to climb. What's not vegan in it? Is it the white bit of the ice? Is it, okay, because that's ice cream. Yeah, yeah. Oh my God, surely they do vegan twisters. If they did, honestly, I'd be all over.

it because I would do anything for a twister. No, I really want twister. No, they're not. They're not. Oh, they're not? Wait, what? Wait, what? Wait, what? Wait, what?

I'm, if this is the... I am going to Sainsbury's, immediately. Yes, little judes, fruit twists are basically twisters and they're vegan. Twisters! No, no, no, twisters! Don't contain dairy. Get yourself out immediately. It's such a nice day as well. We have to end this.

I have to go. Right. All of that bad, we can edit out. I'm not, nothing is bad anymore. I am fucking fine. I am cured. Anxiety is gone. I have climbed back up on the firing pits of hell and I am back exactly where I should be, getting extremely happy about tiny, tiny little things. That's all. Wow. That's all you needed. That's amazing. It's quite amazing, honestly. It's a roller coaster, like there's a roller coaster, you just got to ride it. Oh my God. What a day. We have an amazing guest today. This is an episode that we have wanted to do for so long. Truth be told, like, I do feel a little bit of trepidation about sharing it

because the issue has become so contentious now. And it's so difficult to have this conversation in this. I just find the whole atmosphere. so toxic at the moment and I think this was such a wonderful and valuable conversation and I'm so excited that we get to share it and that we got to have it and I just love Charlie so much I think she's so amazing and I and I would like encourage anyone no matter what their you know opinion thus far might be on the subject of trans issues like I would just encourage everyone to really just listen to it and be open to it and because I think it was a really

it was a great perspective and a very meaningful conversation. And something as well, I think, yeah, I mean, we talk about it in the episode, but about the climate right now and how the news agenda talks about transgender people and transgender issues and everything that's happening in America. And I think, you know, we're seeing so much clipbait, so much antagonism, so much distraction. Like, we're just seeing such a huge noise around this. to talk about all of it in one place so eloquent. I mean, Charlie speaks so eloquently.

It was just really valuable. So we're really proud of it and we really hope that you enjoy it. Yep. Without any further ado, here is Charlie Cracks. Hi, Charlie. Hey. We will promise the full Charlie Craggs experience. Of course.

And she's here to deliver. Always. I'm so excited to be. Are you serious? I'm so excited to be here. I'm flattered to be ours. I'm such a little creep. DM'd you, I actually realized this, like, I DM'd you like, I'd DM'd you like a couple of times

like, hey, do you want to come on the podcast? And I was like, she didn't see them. No, are you serious? I hope you haven't seen them. Oh, look, I'm actually so happy you've said this though, because the amount of people, especially like other influences, to be like, you never apply to me. I'm like, I don't apply to anyone. I don't apply to anyone. Like, literally, anyone listening to this on camera. Yeah. I know, I just don't apply to anyone. I'm sad. It's called PTSD, okay? So you can't be tired of me for it. I literally, no, literally, I'm just a mess. But thank you for having me. Oh my God, thank you for coming. No, I'm so flattered. Thank you so much.

There's so much I want to talk to you about. And actually, the reason that we initially wanted to get you on was last year you were victim of an assault in London. Oh, she's going to stay in that. Yeah. I'm going to back. I'm going to back it. Yeah, no, no, no, we're going to touch on it and then we're going to go back again. This was when I was DMing you because you, you were so badass, not in that you took your assaulters. You took them to court. Yeah. And you won. No, I didn't. Oh, you've not seen the updated post.

I didn't be just saddest podcast ever now. No, I thought it was going well. I was told it was going well and then it was the opposite and I actually got in more trouble than the boy who spouted me. I got a bigger telling off by the judge because I filmed it and that he was underage but I didn't know he's under. Obviously, if you're being attacked,

the first thing you think is let me film this so I have proof because that person is going to deny it, which he did. So obviously, like I either... lose by not having proof, or I film it and get told off by a judge for filming a... Do you know how old was he was 14? He was taller than me. There was two of them, much taller than me. You can send a video.

So I assume there would probably be like 17. Not that makes a difference. I would have filmed them if they were 10. But, and yeah, he doesn't... He gets soft scot-free. I get in trouble. Even if you didn't get the physical assault on camera, the verbal assault. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I had spit swabs down off my face. And then he admitted it as well. So he admitted it. The judge knew. and I still got in more trouble than him. I got such a telling off by this cunt, this. Cunning of a judge, I hope, is listening to this. And I've not talked about this publicly before.

I did a little Instagram post just up Day My Fullers. It was the most traumatic thing of, probably of my whole life. It was I wanted to die that day. Like the day of the court case was the, and it was three court, like three days. But like the last one, like the final ruling, it was harder than the attack itself. It's the hardest thing I've ever going through. I literally wanted to like explode and die. What world do we live in

where you get more of a telling off for filming who you... This is the UK where... A boy whose age you had no idea of because he'd touch you. How is... Like, literally, I just felt like the judge was a tough. She just gave me very much

like energy of... I got misgendered in court as well as in like when I came into the court. The first... Bear in mind, they've been talking about me all day in court this... It was a three-day trial. So they know it's a trans hate crime. I come in the first thing that someone says to me is, please sit down,

sir. I'm like, are we sorry and I literally as soon as that happened I knew it was going downhill from now I'm like I literally said are you serious I'm here for my hate crime and you're literally I've come to this hard thing and you'll call me sir like it's fine do you know what I've turned in we'll get it positive because I turn it into a positive because from that then I was angry

like after that I was fucking pissed and I set up free self-defense classes for trans women so now I've run Charlie's Angels ding which you can support if you want to there's a link to the go find me in my bio because it's just been an ongoing thing where I can because a lot of the money will be going towards paying for the cabs to get because you won't come to the class if you're too scared to leave your house to go on the tube but you're going to be spat on so it's going to be obviously free but it's also going to be

I'll pay for the cabs of the trans women coming I'll be able to pay for a space which is not in a gym where you've got the gym bros will be laughing at them the reception is misgendering us on the way in so like it's good were there any consequences for the ball no he got like um like he has to go to a community centre like once a month just to check in and see how he's like and it's like it's all about him and I literally told the the people who called me up to and out to let me know what like the person who's going to be checking in on him like they were like so maybe you could like come and speak to him and like help him understand and like you could write a let he doesn't want to talk to you right now but did

and I'm thinking this is all centered around him literally I have been spat on also in the pandemic it was like the peak after Christmas when there was another peak remember in 2020 it would have been the start 2022 when there was a peak after Christmas So I'm wearing a mask. This boy who's not wearing a mask on the tube spits on my face. Like, throws a can and he calls me a she-mail. Like, I'm then like having to write him a letter to help him understand. And he's like, I don't want to speak to you right now.

Like, he just doesn't understand what he's done wrong and he'll do it again. And I hope he does it again. And I hope he gets put in prison next time. But that's the awful thing about that judge then. Disgusting. Because it's just like, okay, well, I can do it. I can get away with it. It's obviously not that big a deal.

They've taught him that, yeah. It's disgusting. And also, where did he learn that? I just hope the fact that his face was like, plastered on the internet. Yeah, I can pay for him. Has caused some humiliation now, yeah. People know, like, I,

we found him before the police even did, because that's how viral it went. Like, I was telling the police, I know who it is, and they're like, we got to do our own investigation. They found him a month later, the fucking useless. But, like, it's got, like, a nice thing because, like, I said, I've taken my power back. But, like, it was even like, oh,

maybe you should take the video down. Like, imagine that was your brother, like, da-da-da-da. And I'm like, are you serious? He has spat on my face and been, like, discriminating. It's not even just like, it was like a hate crime as well, like, and you're, like, telling me to have some compassion for him. But I also, I did a campaign with TFL about how they are standing with the British Transport Police against hate crimes on the underground. Like, it's, put your money where your mouth is.

If it was your brother, it'd be locked up. Yeah, if it was my brother, I hope that someone would put him on Instagram, whether he would learn a lesson as well. And then he went around gloating as well. Like, I had people, because he went so viral, sending me screens to being like young teenagers being. like hey like I go to the same school as him and he's like a shit bag and he sent me a screenshot of his Snapchat being like I made this girl famous I spat on her face da da da da da da da like he's not he's

he's proud of what he did but that makes me happy as well because he will do it again like even if I didn't get any justice I logged it it's on his record now so like the next time he does that's someone because apparently he just does go around on the tube because I had other people saying I've seen him at this stop before harassing people he'll do it again like an idiot and he'll be in prison and I look forward to that day I'll come visit you, BD.

You said before about how you get angry and you did put the video up and that's one of my favourite things about following you is you do not give a fuck. Like, we could never, like when I get shit from someone, I hide their name and I put it up and I still get like, oh, maybe you should consider their point of view. Charlie's like, no, let's fucking go.

And it's like profile picture, name, tag them. Oh, maybe mom. I'll find your mom. I messaged a boy's mum recently. Like, why are you giving them that grace? I don't know. They're not giving you the grace. I'm just, I'm afraid.

If they got the background to say that publicly on your page, like if someone comments something publicly, everyone can see it anyway. Everyone can see their name and profile bitch anyway. You said it. Stand by it. You're so, I love it so much. Yeah.

You are right. Alex's looked at me like, you're like, you're like, you know what? I don't do it. You need to be less nice. We are, no, please. It's because you've got more followers in me as well. I think you're held to a higher account.

I'm not being nice. I don't put their names up because part of me thinks that they want this for attention and they want the conflict and they want people messaging them saying shit and they will never in my eyes

they probably will never learn from people then mess I don't know I'm not trying to make them learn what I'm trying to make them learn is don't fuck with me don't fuck with trans people don't fuck with queer people like I just want to give them a bite that they think twice before like

yeah go go ahead I'm like why don't you educate them and I'm like fuck off you educate them if you want to educate them. But if someone calls me a she-mail or like, I don't know, like, you're a predator. I get called a predator literally every day on Instagram, like a paedophile predator, groomer. The irony is so huge that

you're having people come into your space and accuse you of being predatory. Like, literal definition is like stalking someone into their space, which is... Very weird. But this is why they need to be named and shamed. And they're... And they won't do it to me again. They won't do it to me again. I did that one with the boy where like he called me a groomer and then I

messaged his mom. I found his mom through his like Finster, you know, his fake insta. And I saw that she was like a dentist and I went to her page and then I found her email through the page and I messian. He got grounded. He got in trouble. Did he? Oh! See it. Money bites his nor face. He's just a big man. But that is, that does feel like a really unfair responsibility that you have from your followers, people that like you and respect you, that they're telling you then that you have to educate other people. I only some people are like literally like the 1%.

Most of my followers are really on board of it. And that's why I'm not followed for us because I'm messy, but like, it will be sometimes just one person, and it's usually someone who's not even from, like, your community in the way that if it's like LGBT phobia, it'll be like somebody's not LGBT. And I'm like, you have, like, obviously, like, if it was a racial thing for a white person or a black person, like, why don't you educate them rather than it's, like, you don't understand. I go through this every day, whether it's, whether it's racism like that or with me, it'll be the LGBT phobia. And it's like, I, they're not coming here, calling me a predator to be educated, but also, I don't owe anyone, anything. I do. I do.

a lot of education. Literally, I've been educating people for 10 years in my campaign nail transphobia, but I don't owe anyone that. That's my choice. What you do? Can you explain nail transphobia? I can't explain nail transphobia. I don't know. I haven't done in so long so I forget my elevator pitch, but basically I started about 10 years ago and then like the pandemic hit and it's on hiatus. But I'm going to bring it back soon because I feel like it's really needed right now. But basically I've all got shit nails. I've got shit nails literally. But I travel around the UK with a pop-up nail salon. and I, sorry, I just got distracted,

because I saw you, look at your nails. You've got nice nails. I was thinking, like, what am I not going right now? You've got nice nails as well. I've got the worst nails. But I travel around the UK of a pop-up nail salon and offer the public free manicures for the chance down to have a chat of a trans person

just in a bit to kind of give people a chance to meet a trans person because most people haven't. Yet everyone's kind of got an opinion like the hot, like kind of cultural war and like everyone's being kind of forced to have an opinion, like the media want everyone to be like thinking thinking and talking about it as a distraction technique. So it's just good, gives people a chance to meet us

and see that we're not going to eat your children. And I haven't at Arlo today. Yet, you haven't eaten there. Yet, yet. I can just say. As of now, she is still in one piece, no bite much. No, well, yeah. Thank God veggie pretz next door, because then I get a little hungry. Have you seen that means?

Like, next time someone hands you a baby, just say no thanks, I'm a vegetarian. Nah! I like that. I know, so good. That is really, that is really amazing. very kind of you, like nice of you. I agree, which is why it pisses me even more

when people are like, you should educate them. I'm like, I do. Go buy my book if you want to be educated. Like sometimes like talk shit get hit. Like you, if you're coming to a space looking to be rude, like I said, they're not looking to be educated. And I think that's why I've made it my thing

of like once a year where I'll post like a reminder to my followers being like, hey guys, I'm so, so grateful you're here. Like, I'm so so so grateful. But also like, these are the house rules. Like, don't come for me. Ever, just unfollow, just unfollow. You don't have to like me, you don't have to agree with me, but don't tell me.

No. I'm going to tell you. Yeah. Like, you can unfollow. You have every, you don't have to follow me, you don't owe me that. But I guess what? I also don't owe you, you know, an education or like, yeah. I guess something that you touched on, and I've actually heard you talk about in interviews

before, which is so interesting, because the fact that right now, everybody is being forced to have an opinion on trans issues. Yeah. Even people who really don't have a clue who it doesn't bother. Everyone. Literally. that's most people who like just don't have a clue and yeah they're being asked which opinion on this and it's like oh my god does everyone have to have an opinion on somebody educated on like

yeah and it's and i you'll hear it i've i've heard it this conversation actually so many times it's like well what about the olympics and what about praetland i'm like it is so irrelevant to your have you ever given a shit about the rules of the olympics before now no such a good point but also how many olympic level athletes are we talking about i think it's like three or two or something It's like, are you serious? That's so much conversation in the media is warranted for something about three people in the world. And the fucking woman came like eighth, you know, the weightlifter woman. Like, it's like, what the hell are we talking about?

Like, if, I don't know, it's just mad, it's just so like, and that's all the proof you need that it is a distraction technique. Because it's such like a minute issue that was never an issue in the past. Nothing's changed since like we've been here the whole time. you've never been a threatened by us ever we've always been using the toilets with you and then all of a sudden five years ago it's like what if transmitting rapists in the bathroom it's like well we've never

and we never will but also like where is this coming from that you need to write literally an article a day like the Times did what 200 and I think it's 235 or 34 articles in a year during 2020 during the pandemic pandemic when there's like people dying and we're in like the fucking

the fifth worst the country where all the people were dying, you know, the UK was awful. And, like, also going through the heat of Black Lives Matter, we're doing, the Boris is breaking the rules, you know. And yet, you're writing 255, that's almost like one a day, like, about trans people. About 1% of the population. All negative. Not a single one by a trans person.

You can look up the stats yourself. That's all the proof you need. They didn't have a single trans person. And all negative. It's all like, it's like, I saw one by, like, fucking Jacqueline Wilson. I'm like, what does? And she literally says an article, like, I'd, like, don't, she doesn't, she's like, I don't really understand it.

And I'm like, so why have they asked her? Like, it's like asking me about like, what do you think about like, race or even abortion? Like somebody can't have an abortion. What do you think of abortion, Charlie? Let me give you a massive platform in the Times. Talk about abortionist and make the public agree with you. And it's like, Jacqueline Wilson has no clue about transper,

which is literally saying like, I don't think kids should be having their cocks lobbed off. And I'm like, first of all, kids aren't having their cocks loved off. Like, also, the cock is not logged off as well. Like, it's just weird. And it's like, then like the public reading would be like, yeah, kids shouldn't have their cocks lobbed off. And it's like, you literally have to be like 18 to have surgery.

You can get married. You can join the army. You can, I don't know, drink, gamble, do drought. But you can't drink. You know what I mean? Like, you can do all these other things that is like not, like, that's an adult. But like, you're trying to kill yourself because you're trans. Then you can't lob your cock off.

Like, it's like, it's like, it's infantilising us and like it's making it like about children. You wouldn't call anyone else at 18 in a child. Like, you just wouldn't. Like, you know. Yeah. It's really. upsetting. I'd like to ask, I can imagine, but I'd like to ask your, the thing that I struggle, like, continue to not be able to get my head around is why there is so much

debate on this from people who, for who, like, trans rights does not affect them. Trans issues do not affect them at all. Like, it's people who are unaffected by it and it doesn't touch their daily lives. Why do you think there's often these people that have such a strong opinion are so forceful and so vocal in this area of trans issues and trans rights like why i think it's because they don't have enough real problems period and they need to like cling to something to be like we literally are a theoretical problem especially like let's just talk UK at least anyway right now because i'm not educated on the whole world but like but that's such a badly word of sentence i went to a very bad school and houndslow guys but i might not be i might not be like

educate like academically like or politically whether the fucking in the know all but I know right and wrong and I also just know like you've never had a case here of like a trans woman in a bar from doing anything like I said there's never been a case of that no no we've always been and like

if there was a case I feel like at this point it wouldn't even surprise me if it was a plan or something it's just like it scares me because I'm like you know these people are fucking unhinged like they're like their whole Twitter feed and their whole life It's literally like Graham Liner He's like he's the right father Ted or something

He's like obsessed he lost his wife His wife left in because she was like He's obsessed about like trans It's just anti-trans But it's like encompassed his whole life And his whole Twitter feed He's worried about me Like his wife left in specifically because of that

Like it's unhinged It's like a rabbit hole though You know with like people getting radicalised And other kind of you get the men With Andrew Tatelot And then like some religions can become radicalised And then it's that with this thing With like you fall down the whole of

this like type of like turfy feminism. Well, the word radical is into turf and it is very much like you become radicalized and you and it's like we've never been your enemy. It's also so weird as a trans person like to see this shift happen in real time. Like I came out, I like transitioned 10 years ago. I didn't even know what the word turf was because it just wasn't a part of our cultural conversation. Nothing has changed in those 10 years and how like trans people are like interacting with

the public. Like I said, there's not been a case of anything that's made us like a threat to you or anything. Why is 10 years ago I didn't even know what the word turf is now I get like shit every day online from and not just online it comes into real life as well like when I'm in the street I used to be more scared of like men now I'm much more not scared of my physical safety from women but I just I'm always getting comments or look or you just feel like you're sitting opposite someone on YouTube and you're like do you hate me like you just think like why do you hate me I've never done anything wrong to you like and you're my sister like I would like I would like I just it's as someone

especially like, especially trans women who like a lot of us were like gay boys before we transition quotation marks. Like obviously I always felt like a girl. I was like four when I was telling my mum's girl. So I've very much always been a girl inside but out to the outside world as like a little gay boy. Everyone around me who like supported me and who obviously I supported back is all women. The women have, girls and women have always been my safe space. Like yeah, I don't this, I just don't understand. It's so hurtful to like, yeah, it's just, it's really hurt. I feel like I'm going to cry, but it's just I like, I don't even think about it because sometimes it just is like yeah it's just this really hard it's that's really hard

feeling like why do you hate me i've never done anything wrong to you like yeah it's such a good point in that you have been attacked i mean so recently by men but children boys like physically and you're scared for your physical self but the fact that that these women are the ones that are kind of hurting the movement or not the movement but hurting your The community. A man can swear my face and it hurts my, it's disgusting. But like, it's much scarier to have someone like writing, do you want men in your bathroom in the telegraph of the Times

or somewhere like that or the garden even recently. But if a man was going to come into the bathroom, oh my God. A man would come, like, why would you transition? Do you know how long it takes a transition? Do you know how expensive tits are? Like, do you really think a perver? Yeah.

It's also like, if we're going to do the toilet things like this is what I always say this is really clever, is that if you're going to ban trans... Also, there's so many layers of this, because I also think, side note, like, you're not saying, like, make a trans toilet or make a gender-neutral toilet separate. It's like, no, put trans in the men's toilet. We want you in the men's toilet.

It's like, why do you so badly want me to be in raped and murdered or beaten up, like, because that's what's going to happen? Like, what's going to happen if I go into a toilet with a load of lads? What do you think is going to happen? Like, with these big juicy tips. But, like, really, like, they're not saying that, But then my point, what I was going to say, this is a really good point, is that if you're going to ban me from, like, women's toilets

because you think I'm a sexual threat, why are we not then, like, first of all, I don't even like girls. Like, why are you then, I mean, I'm pan, like, I'm a-panning, because I'm, like, 21st century. But, like, I don't, I've never been with a girl. I don't like girls. Like, why are we then not banning gay men from men's toilets? Why are we not banning the lesbians, the turfs to a lot of my lesbians?

Maybe you're projecting a little bit, because, like, why are we then, like, you are actually sexually attracted to the women you're in a bathroom with, boop, I'm not. So, like, maybe you think, just like, what the fuck is going on with this mental gymnastics of, like, let's ban trans women because you're a sexual threat.

Bitch, I don't want to touch you. And also, if I am going to touch someone and you put me in the men's toilets, it will be your husbands. I promise you now, I've said it on my Instagram. If they make, because it's, like, currently being consulted, like, there's a consultation in government

about, like, you know, when they're doing this stuff with also the, their quality act with how we define sex and gender and stuff, if all of a sudden trans women are put into men toilets, I will literally make it a campaign light nail transphobia to be like, ladies, suck off as many men as you can. What I said is, I'll give a card. Like, if women can prove they're like an ally,

I will have like a card that you then give you your husband for his wallet that he can show and be like, okay, I won't suck you on. Like a little white flag. Yeah, yeah. Like a little trans flag. Because do you, why would anyone with a fucking brain want to put a trans woman in a hot trans woman in a heart next to the urinal with your husband?

No. It's such a laugh. You idiot? Just make a trans toilet. If you want to, just make a gender neutral toilet on top of. You have women's, men's. I'm happy to... I didn't even go toilet in public, just to be honest.

I very rarely go because I'm scared. Literally, I'm like, just scared that someone is... No, but it's always been that way. Even before I knew what terse were, I was just always... I always never felt welcome. And it's just funny that, like, all my trans transfer were the same. And yet we're the ones being made to feel like. We're the ones making people I'm welcome.

The fact that you... When you apply logic to that argument that it breaks down, again, just... So sorry. So sorry. She's sad about toilet. Hi. She's hungry. Probably.

Just need it. We don't mind a few baby noises on the podcast. Okay, sorry listeners, we have a baby now. It's my baby. We haven't just found a baby. Interruption for a babba. I've got so many questions. I've so much to talk to together.

And I don't want you to have to speak on behalf of, like, for all these issues. I will speak on half. I've got a lot to say, like, honestly, there's not, like, yeah. And there's a, I feel really, like, like, I feel really. lucky to be on this of you guys because like obviously the listenership, it's like the viewership, the listenership, you know, it would be, um, a lot of the people we need to be speaking to who are just like being dragged into this quotation marks debate who just need a bit of sense. Like it, like, I remember what you're saying just before.

It's just like it's like, it's so like out of proportion. It's like why we all like, it's why we were talking about toilets like, especially when like it said, nothing has happened. Nothing new has happened like why it makes no. sense. Like I said, we've been using the toilet with you the whole time. I've read my friend everyone's read it, Sean Facebook, the transgender issue, which is so good, which just gives a bit of context on everything going on. And it really marks the point. And I'm like, that is so true. Like for a long time, for the whole time, actually, until the last five years, six

years, seven years, for the whole time in history, trans people have always been like a joke, as in like, we've always been like in a sitcom, we always be the people laughed at. And it's so interesting to have gone from being, like, laughed at to have been people all of a sudden be, like, scared of you. Now people are acting like, oh my God, protect your children, like, oh my God, I'll pass the rooms. And it's like, protect your children from, think about it. The pantomime has always got a, the dame. Are you calling me a dame? I would never. But I do think it's interesting that we take our children to go and watch this like comedic, like, thing of a, but we're not protecting the men. That's Christmas. But then the rest of the year.

It's like... It's mad. It's just unwarranted as well, like, because it's like... It's not even like it stemmed from like there was a cultural issue of this happening. Like, look, there's a massive... Which I would understand then.

But like, if there was a massive issue of like, this keeps happening and like it's happening all... It's like a cultural issue. Like, then I'd understand. But it's just, it's mad. Going back to that man, whatever his name is, Beardy man, I think it's like names like Mike or something, Mike Phelps or Mike Phillips or...

You just think, why do you care? Like, you're not even in the women's bar. It gives me, like, I wouldn't be surprised if something weird comes out about him because it's like, it's almost like a deflection. Like, have you done something a bit weird? Because like, why is this straight man like so obsessed about like women's spaces?

And I'm like, I bet he's not even like a feminine. I bet he'd love to know where he stands on other issues. Like, same with Graham Liner. I'm like, when has Graham Liner never cared about women? They don't get a fuck. They don't get a fuck. Like, when has he ever cared about women's issues until a trans woman came longer?

She said, that's a legacy. Can we hear about your journey? Your gender, journey. Your evolution. Yeah, sure. But we found out we actually grew up in the same area. So we're West London girls. I've been up and here there and everywhere.

Yeah, I've heard. You're from, yeah. On the toilet walls, yeah. Yeah, so you're from Labbrook Grove. Yeah, born and bred Labbert Grove. Yeah. Grew up on a council stay, I feel like that needs to be mentioned. Because it definitely does bring a different light to like, you know,

like growing up in a council state as like a queer person. You will never meet a queer person. I had a good time growing up. Boy, gay, trans, whatever. It was hard. But I wouldn't. have changed it for the world. It's as in like the hardness also prepared me for what I'm going through now. As in like I get like said, get called a paedophile groomer, everything every day,

all day, every day on Instagram. It doesn't bother me in the slightest because I was getting called that at seven. I was getting called a girl and a batty boy at seven. The funny thing is go back to my estate now the boys were calling me a girl back there when I was a boy. Aren't calling me a girl anymore. They're calling me a boy now. It's funny. They're just never going to be happy, are they? I was like I am. I took your advice. So I was like about four. three, four, when I was telling my mum, I was a girl, I felt like a girl, which I think as well, like, to anyone listening who is, like, reading these kind of articles that we're talking about and, like, not sure about things and trying to make an opinion, it's like, I think the fact

that I was, like, three or four, and this is, like, most trans people at that age, that's like, I think it's that age usually, because that's when you start being, like, policed on your agenda, like, you go to school, you have to wear boys, uniform, a girl's uniform, play the boys, toys, toys, toys, because you'll be policed by your peers, boys, toilets, It's very much like the gender, when you leave the home, the safety of your home and you're going to the world which is gendered. And I was telling my mum I was a girl then and I didn't even have really a sense of memory of that. Like my mum remembers it, but I don't, which I think shows how pure it is because it's not like, obviously you're three or four anyway. It's not conscious, but like as in I can't even remember it.

That just shows how like innate it was that I was like, it just shows how natural being trans is and like being trans is natural. Like intersex people, for example, like which is kind of like the trans kind of like the trans kind of. vibe is like people who are you know not male nor female we're just a part of science like there's more people who are intersex naturally than ginger and like yeah

we're just the same in the animal kingdom like you look in the animal kingdom they're just like it's just science like it's just a natural part of like science having like variations of like things and stuff and trans people you know have always been here you look in every ancient culture there's like documentation of third spirit people there's like the

Hidra's in, kind of in Asia, in India, there's like two spirit people in like a Native American culture. In every culture, even you look back at like Egyptian culture. Like there's always been existence of like people in between the male and the female. And like, so it's really like going back to what I was saying as well, it's just so interesting to look at how like this is just blown up in like 2020 or whatever year, 2020-2017 kind of time. It kind of all like shit hit the fan about like trans people being a threat. But like, you'd never, like, we'd always been around

and we'd always been using the toilets with you. And I think that's the thing that I think people don't realize, do they? Is that trans people have always been around. This is not like a new thing. Like, suddenly everyone's... Oh my God, I had the funniest comment of my life on my Instagram the other day. It was a girl.

And it was probably like 16 blesses. She mess commented on one of the things, she goes, I just don't see why like all your LGBT people have to make such a big thing about it. It's just that some new thing that came about three years ago and you just haven't stopped talking about. It's like, it's like, it's like, it was like 14-year-old. It's like, things just like that.

We've, like, been talking about. Like, low-rise jeans. Yeah, like, in the last three years, we didn't exist before then. Like, happy third birthday to the LGBT community. Like, literally, she literally was like, why have you made this a thing three years ago? Like, it's bless her soul. But is that? It's like that statistics that I can't, I can't, I'm not going to be able to recall it because I can't.

it at statistics so i'm going to butcher it but it's it's a statistic that loads of turf sues right and transphobic people and they talk about how the incidents of kids asking for for transitioning has like gone up by 1,400 or something like that percent in the last however long and i think and they oh since the 1980s that's it yeah and then no one was coming out as trans because... And when you digged out like they used this stat and it's like basically just 1,400 kids to come out

it's got like 1,400% where it is it's like 1,400 kids have stun it but it's because they finally have a word for it and feel safe to I didn't, I was like I said that age I was 4 I didn't know what trans was my mum didn't know what trans was we were like in the 90s in Labbrook Grove on a council state like there

we didn't have that vocabulary my mom just thought was going to be gay and she was fine with that and like she didn't like I have two brothers both like straight manly boys one's a gym boy one's a bad boy. No one single. I want to meet the bad boy. Just see what merited him.

I'm not. He's not bad anymore. Hey Ashley, but he, like they um, like we were all raised the same. My mom didn't like buy me special girly thing. You know, like, like it was like, like, my point is that it wasn't like, not this. This is ridiculous. I should have to say this, but it wasn't like encouraged, you know, like it was just like we were raised the same.

This is who I am. Like, you know, like I just have the kids now have a word for it. They can turn on TV. and see people like them and also why is that such a bad thing like why like it'd be the same like we want to apply this to gay like kids have a like they're not ashamed to come out early these days why is that bad why do you hate gay people so much why do you hate trans people so much what the fuck is wrong with a child coming out as trans if they're trans good for them they won't have to go through the wrong puberty like i did but they probably will because it take that fucking NHS is dire and

you wait literally like 10 years for appointment for the trans clinic but if they're lucky and were to get on like a hormone blocker which bus pauses puberty until they can make the at an older age. They won't have a deep voice like me. They won't have big broad shoulders like me. They won't have an adult... They won't be getting spat on on the tube because hopefully they'll be able to have an easier life

and just get to blend in, you know? Because we didn't go through puberty. And then we won't even have the debate around bloody sport because then we've not got people, like, you know, it just fixes everything. I also, you, I've read that you'd... I've read something that you'd written in an article and it was about how the statistics showed

that the pill had more adverse effect than the hormone blockers. Well, everyone knows that. I'm like sure you both. as I'm not assuming. I think you'd be surprised by how few people know that. And if you consider the fact

that I was put on the pill at 15 by a doctor who literally didn't even look at me just like wrote it. All my friends. All my friends. I got a friend who put on it at 13 and it's got like that's like hormones. Literally turns around.

If we can't get onto hormones, we take the pill because it's got it's like got the hormones in it sort of thing. But like the pill is known to be like it fucks you up. I've got a friend who almost died from being on the pill. Like it just really the mental as well

and like, but you'll chucked. Girls on that at 13, you know, even if like girls are underdeveloped, they track them on it or they're too developed. And yet there's no talk about that and the long-time effects that has on women and girls, but you'll be like, oh, we couldn't possibly give a person of the same age at 15, 13, 13, whatever, a hormone blocker, which like I said, all it does is pauses puberty until they're old enough to decide if they're still, then they will still be trans and like the turfs love to bring up.

Oh, D-transitioners, it's literally like I, you can watch my documentary, BBC, three is transitioning teens because I can't remember the exact stat but it's something like 0.0 1% of the public around that are trans something like that I think it's a bit less and then 0.1% of the public are detransitioners

so like 1% of the 1% or something like that you know it's like not as literally a handful when I tell you it's like it's not even noteworthy and most people who detransition when it's like logged when they like have to log it. It won't be that like they realise they weren't trans. Some very, very few people would be like that.

Most of it is like, I couldn't hack being trans. It was so hard. My family didn't accept me or I couldn't find love. I couldn't find a job. Who would fucking want to be trans? Who in their right mind would want to be trans? No one. It's shit.

It's shit. So like, it just annoys me that like, and I met a detransitioner in my documentary and sat down with them, which was actually really scary because like we've been pitted against each other. But we both realized, actually like, we want the same thing. Like, because if you think about it, I'm saying we need more kind of my doctor's,

commentaries about how the NHS is failing us because, and obviously I love the NHS, my mum worked for the NHS, but, and it's not the NHS's fault, it's people to give the funding to the NHS, but like I said, it's like a seven-year wait, like, for it to get on to, to get an appointment with a gender clinic specialist. So, like, you go to the GP and say, hey, I'm like suicidal, which is what I did. And then I waited about two and a half years, but that was 10 years ago. Now it's going up to like five-ish years. You're not going to see a hormone to, like I said, like seven years or something. Definitely no surgery for a long time. But I'm saying we need more

medical intervention for, this is just ridiculous that we're waiting this long, we need more medical intervention and then the turf's are saying like, no, just stop all medical intervention for like young teenagers. And the detransitioner who was very young, they were in their first year at uni

and they started transitioning as a teenager. They were like, no, I agree with you. We need more intervention to catch the people who aren't who are doing it, there's very few, like I said, but for the people who are actually going to end up detransitioning because they've realized they're not trans. They're not going to realize about the by the stuff. They need more counseling.

They need more help. Having an appointment, being given one appointment every fucking five years, you're not going to get any help from that. Like, if this young person, they were saying, if I had more medical intervention, I would have realized sooner that I wasn't.

And like, we're both saying we want the same thing. And then you've got the fucking turfs and, like, piping in, they need to wind their neck in saying like, oh, we need to stop all medical intervention. But trans people and then people who are detransitioning are both saying the exact opposite. Why did they, this person who's not trans, not got a trans kid,

not got any like, kind of, like any doesn't even have a trans friend, get to pipe in and be on Twitter, be like, I don't think we should even have gender clinics for teenagers. Like, when literally trans people, and the people who have realised they're not trans, like detransitioners are both saying, actually we need the opposite, we need more intervention to help the 99% of trans people who actually are trans,

who are suicidal, I'm waiting, but also to catch the 1% who just needed that bit of medical support to realise they're not. Maybe they're non-binary, maybe they're just a butch lesbian, maybe they're an effeminate gay guy. Why the fuck are we going to just take all support away? It's like with anything, like not supporting it. It's not going to make it stop.

It's just going to mean we have to do it in riskier ways. Like black market hormones just with like abortion. If you stop abortion, it's not going to stop abortions. Just stop safe abortions. It's the same here. Yeah. And interesting that those women would absolutely lose their minds if men started commenting on abortion issues because it's not their right.

No one should have an opinion other than people who are growing through it. I would never ever chime in on. Obviously I'm pro abortion. I'm if you need to get an abortion. at pro-choice, that's the word, not pro-portion. But my point being, like, I would never, like, I'd be like, it's not my place to say, like, why the fuck am I being given? Like, if I was, like, offered, like, a Jacqueline Wilson spread is, which I mean,

why have I been asked? Give it to, let's talk to someone, like, it's ridiculous, you know? And it should be the same for any issue. Like, if you're not affected by it, you probably shouldn't have a say in it, like, you know? Like, the trained professionals, the doctors, they've been doing this for a long time. They know what they're doing, and they're all our sides. So, yeah, maybe you should think about that, yeah. Anyone with a brain is.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So back to you, you knew at four, or you did, your mum. I was saying I want to be a girl at four, but I didn't know I was trans at because, like I said, I didn't even know what trans person was. My mum didn't. Yeah.

Interestingly, if you go on my Instagram, at Charlie underscore Craggs, you guys see, I did like a self-port, I put up a self-portrait I did when I was four and it was me as a girl. I had long hair. I didn't have long hair in real life, so I don't know why I drew, it was of long hair. Manifesting. This is me. Manifesting. Tranifesting.

I drew myself with a skirt and with a long hair and it wasn't until I was in secondary school I'm not going to say dates because people work out my age but we're all about the same. Wow!

But true. I realized I was trans when I saw Nadal and Big Brother because it was the first I'd never even heard the word trans and I just saw Nadia and I was like and I remember like she's only one big brother

in like 2005 or six and like just like having a word for it finally and seeing someone like me and that's exactly how I felt inside and obviously I just hit puberty at that time so like my body's changing in ways I really didn't like and I found my diary from that time and I was like it's so funny as well because like I was so obviously trans but I just didn't know one there wasn't no one I didn't know what it was like and like there just was no talking about trans stuff and like looking back in my diary it's like I was writing in like code because I was scared some of my family had find and it was like oh my god I've had to start shaving I'm so embarrassed I hope my mom and dad don't find out

What sort of teenage boy thinks like that? Please tell me, teenage boys will grow that bum fluff out until like it fucking falls off. Like, they are so proud when they have to start shaving their face. And yet I was like hiding my razor in my room and then like writing in my diary, oh, I hope my mum doesn't find out that I'm shaving my face now. Kids, you know yourself. Gay people know when they're like, you just know. In the same way you know you weren't trans, I knew I was trans.

In the same way you know you like boys or if you like girls, you just know. And it's not for anyone who's not, who doesn't understand that to chime in and be like, Well, how do you know? And what if you change your mind? It's like, fuck off. Worry about your own kids. Why are you fucking, why is Mike Phillips where his name's probably not even Mike Phillips? Why is he fucking getting to chime into millions of people and like make them think of

that way and like, it's just like, you've got actual kids. Maybe you spend less time on YouTube, your little man baby and go and look after actual kids. So like, yeah, I just, um. You knew. You just knew. You always. Oh, yeah. Go back to me.

Yeah. So I like, I knew I finally had a word for it when I was about 12, 11, 12. Um, then, but it wasn't a. another 10 years until I actually accepted myself. Because even though I knew it then, I was so suicidal because, like, I, I just, I hated myself, if I'm honest. Like, I really, like, just didn't want to live because I was, like, in an all-boys school, living on an estate, which was very manly, you know, like, that sort of place with two

brothers and, like, just, like, getting bullied really badly for being effeminate. And, like, you internalize that, like, especially when you're young, like, you, you hate yourself, and you're like, well, I don't want to be this. Why am I gay, trans, whatever? I was like, I was just like, I just want to be like my brothers. I'm so sick of like being bullied by literally everyone around me that like I didn't want to be it. And I was like, and I didn't, the only person we had was Nadia.

After Nadia, try to name another famous trans person for another 10 years. We had Nadia in like 2015, sorry, 2005. 10 years later we had Laverne Cox. That was 10 years. 10 years prior to that, we had no one. I had one person in my whole life for like 20 years to like be like I'm like them. And then we finally started getting the girls and drag race coming out in Laverne Cox. And that was like, like I said, 2000, like 2015-ish, like 14-15.

And that's, yeah, like, it wasn't until like, around that time, like, 2013 that I accepted myself. Because I, until then, I just hadn't seen, like, the only time you would see trans people in the media would be on, like, Jerry Springer, literally being beaten up on TV. And that's the man segments, which is very much what I'm trying to, you remember what I was saying earlier about, we were just always the joke in sitcoms like Chan as dad or like, you know, and Jerry Springer. in films in like we were just a joke trans people were just like we weren't scared no one was scared of us no if like male celebrities like it would always be like their salacious sex stories if they had sex with yeah yeah sex swap up like you know like you know that is such a sudden headline it's such a like a news of the world wasn't it chanler's dad in friends yeah that's what I'm saying yeah yeah so but were they scared of chanla's dad no like

it wasn't we were a joke we were any sitcom you watch like like I'm trying to, or even films like that Jim Carrey one, the pet detective one, like he like vomits when he finds out she's trans, like we weren't, no one was scared of us, no one thought we were like rapist. So it's so interesting to be like, so you've been laughing at us our whole life

and beating us up on Jerry Springer and that's the man segments. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh my God, we're so scared of you, leave us a loop. You're the ones beating us up. How dare you flip it? Like literally. You are the, and this would be a statistic

that I will butcher, but trans people are the most vulnerable Oh, duh, like, yeah, the most vulnerable subset. I mean, also, like, I don't, I think that's really hard to quantify because, obviously, like, there's so few of us, like, obviously the amount of abuse, but also, like, then you bring intersecting identity,

into, like, if you're a black trans person, imagine how that is, do I mean? Like, so I don't think it's about, like, trying to say, we're the most, we're the most, it's just about being like, if you're on a bus or a train, whatever, like, I came here on the tube today, if a trans person gets on,

are you thinking they're going to attack you, or are you thinking, oh, I better watch out than I don't attack them. There's your answer. You're not thinking, oh, God, that big trans. But, like, if I got on the tube, you wouldn't be like, oh, God, she's going to attack me. You'd be thinking, oh, like, I keep,

when I see, like, for example, a gay couple come on holding hands, I always put my headphone off so I can hear. If anyone fucking says anything, I'm going to pop off. And it'd be the same if I see a trans person. I'm always, like, watching out for them thinking, if anyone fucking looks at them, laughs at them, like, you're not thinking they're going to attack them. So how dare you twist it and make it seem like we're the fucking predators,

when we're the prey. We are the ones you've been praying on. We're the bottom. We are the absolute bottom of the social totem pole. Obviously, like I said, like being a black trans woman, you're even more at the bottom. But like, we are the bottom.

We're the bottom, period. Like, I'm scared of men. You know? We have the same experience with that in different ways. But like, but if a man seems to be walking down the street, do you think he's going to say,

sorry, could I just check your chromosomes before I cat call you? I face that as well. Like, we're sisters. We're not like, and it's not a, it's not a this or that. It's not you even get to choose trans rights or women's rights. It's like you do realize they can coexist and they always have co-existed

and they can coexist. Like, we're not trying to take up your space. You're not trying to take up our space. Like, anyone, but the sad thing is this is we're talking about this now. There is so much talk about in the media, but it's such a small minority. Most women don't think like this. It really is, they've got a very fucking loud voice because guess what? They're all fucking middle-class women with good jobs writing for the big newspapers.

They're not, they're not fucking, you know, see many like black women talking about like turfism or you know it's literally always a certain type of woman who you know went to university lives in a nice house that she owns has a good job it's like most women don't think like that they're just very loud and they're given the voice because like I said it's a distraction technique from how bad the government are doing because the newspapers all hands and hands with the government I think as well like you know you said earlier we are forced to have an opinion on this and we live in a time where we are very scared to have the wrong opinion. So that then breeds a culture where everybody's either much too scared to speak, usually

just much too scared to speak because it's like, well, I don't want to upset anybody. But if you actually sit and do your introspection, you realise your point just there about like when someone gets on the train, are you more worried that you're going to be attacked or that you would be attacked, the person, the trans person would be attacked. And I think like, but nobody humanises it like that. And nobody, young people aren't having an opportunity to have a conversation like with your nails. Like young people, not even young people,

nobody's having their opportunity to have a human conversation because everybody's being so demonised. It's desensitizing the public. It's dehumanising us. It's making us like a theoretical... We are the gays of the 80s, the 90s. We are the black people of the 60s.

We're the immigrants and the Muslims of the early 2000s. There's a cultural every now and then. We're just that. We're just the newest distraction technique. You think about the other previous ones like with like the immigrants and stuff and it's like it's just so like girl like what are we talking about like the way we're talked about as trans people now is exactly the way that gay people were painted in tabloids and the press in the 80s and 90s and even under 2000s where it's

like oh my god they're trying to force it on our kids they're trying to like it's an agenda like you can literally just look at headlines from the 80s and 90s side by side with headlines today about trans people and be like it's the exact same headline yeah they've just changed the word gay for trans and it's like that we're a threat to kids and women that we're like paedophiles and we're sexually weird and like that what is the world coming to you can't say anything and you know it's just like oh my god please just leave us alone can we just be in our corner by ourselves we we were fine yeah just want to just like football hooligans calling me a tranny in public again I'd much rather just go back to that the annoying thing is that those people who are very vocal

and very loud yeah and the people who debate the the, you know, or try to invalidate the existence of trans people. The annoying thing is that they, like you said, that are people that go to university and they are articulate and they appear intelligent. And I think that's as well a reason why a lot of people are jumping on this bandwagon. Also being drawn into it, because if you word it in a way, if you say, if a headline is like, do you want, do you want, sorry,

it would be do you want men in your bathroom with your women's bathroom? It's like, no. but it's like trans women feel the same we don't want men in our bathroom like what like it's just worded very cleverly and it'll be like and it'll be very calmly and like you know like JK Rowland the way she writes it's not like

explosive like kill all trans people it'll be like what about the human you're like what about this is like it's like it's very it's very scary to me is because it's so clever it's just it feels really overwhelming if I'm honest I'm like I'm like I can't believe where we've got to like you know you've got someone who's

respected and got a lot of like support and like speaking in a way that like actually like when you read it like that you're like actually that's a really good point but it's like why ask like why are you citing on us what the hell what have we done to you she was also one of the people that cited that statistic you know that that it's gone up 400 or 1,000 but also why do you think we could do that of gay people we could do that with left when the best one I got you one listen to this with left handed people as soon as left handed was like allowed you know before they were like you can't write your left hand as well as you can't write your left hand As soon as kids were allowed to write the left hand,

left-handedness went up by like, you can, I don't know the stat, but it's by like a ridiculous amount. As a left-sided person who writes with my right hand, I would have loved the chance to be left-handed. To be a witch and right of your left-hand. Which is a bitch. Which is a bitch. This is what I don't get.

Right. So that statistic, we can tell, like, straight away, the moment you, like, scratch the surface of that statistic, you can see it's just, it doesn't make it any sense. It's just going to become more and more like, just like generally LGBT-phobic because it creeps in, because if you're thinking, like, you look in places like even America right now with the anti-trans laws, but, like, I think the best ones look at is Hungary, where, like,

they were very, like, anti-trans in the way that it is here, and there's, like, law, there was a media thing, then it went to government, and then there's laws being made, and now it's trickling down into gay rights. Gay said nothing because it's like, oh, that's you, like, you know? And then all of a sudden they're stripping back gay rights now, and it's like, if you don't think this is a trickle-down effect of, like, they come for the tea, then they're going to come for. the next chain of the LGBT you know and they'll break us off one by one and like you know you can

see it with like I've seen turf like going crazy about like you know we've seen there's like even here in the UK right now there's like it feels like every week there's a protest outside this drag showing on a roke where like they're like they're trying to like and it's like it's coming for drag guess what drags drag queens are usually gay men then they're gonna come for the gay man I promise you now it's it's dangerous yeah if we're forced to have an opinion on it which the media is making us then it with that in mind, we need to make sure we have a formed opinion on it. Yeah.

And I think just taking tickets is... It's hard because, like, having a times article you would think would be informed. You'd like, you read a times article saying you think you would be informed. And then you end up in the algorithm like you were saying before we're TikTok and it's like, if you end up in the wrong... If you're being fed that all day. And it is manipulative because like you say a headline that's like... Do you want men in the bar?

You're like, well, no. And then it's like, and then you're pushed on an Olympic thing. And you're like, well, it's probably not for. And it's just like, but I don't care. Yeah, who cares. Who cares? Who cares. I'd never give me shit about the Olympics in my life.

I think it's also very much indicative of a social media age, like, where like we, something happens globally, and especially if you have a following, but even just for your friends and family, you feel that you have to post, you know, when like there's a, even like where you change your profferbitch to like... Have a flag.

Yeah, have a flag. Like, you feel like... And then if you don't, people are judging you because you did it. And it's like, or if you don't post about something that's happening, like a relief thing or something where you've got to raise money. It's like, people like didn't you share this. Why aren't you talking about this and it's like,

and even, like I said, for just like people who haven't got followings, it's like that. Like, so like everyone's in this age being forced to have an opinion about everything because we've all got a phone in our hands with a platform that we're supposed to be like sharing that opinion on. And it's like, you know you just can sometimes not have an opinion

on things. Yeah. Yeah. And just vibe. Well, you are fucking great. You are having great. Thank you so much. I feel like a two hour special. This just feels like really long. This does feel special though.

But also, I feel like, I feel like this was really important. I just want to say thank you because like I said, the what will be tapping into of your audience and like the people who will be listening to this who might be on the fence, who might be leaning one way because the things the rabbit holes they've been pulled into. I just want to say thank you. Thank you so, so much for this platform. Thank you for being my friend. Thank you for being allies. Thank you for hopefully making some more allies. And just like, it's not even about allyship and big words like that. It's just about being a decent person. That's what I really want

people to understand. It's just like, right is right and wrong is wrong. And you can feel it and you know it. And you don't have to do an MA in gender studies or read my book or or anything to understand, like, trans issues. You've just got to know, let's leave these people alone who are struggling as is. It's, like, hard enough being trans. And you can see that. Like I said, if you do the whole thing I said about, like, coming on a bus or a train, would you think we're going to attack you or do you feel sorry for us?

Like, you know, we're not your enemy. We're actually the ones who you lot have been being mean to our whole lives. And, like, just leave us alone. And just like, yeah, just to have a bit of kindness. Thank you so much. And also, do you read your book? Yeah, like, I would have, blah. I mean, read my next one.

I'm going to have a new one coming out. Oh, read both your books. Where's your new one coming out? I haven't written it yet. Okay. Watch this face. But now, we'll put your old book in the show notes. And your Instagram.

And your BBC 3 documentary. Thank you. And we love for you. Can you put my bumble as well in, please? I need a boyfriend. Oh! Risa restart the podcast with Johnny. Thank you so much for listening.

Should I delete that? It's part of the A. to create a network.