Should I Delete That? - Chessie King: I Chose to Save My Marriage

Episode Date: June 9, 2024

This week on the podcast, Em and Alex are joined by Chessie King. A few months ago, Chessie shared that her marriage to her husband Mat wasn't all it seemed. Behind closed doors, they'd been struggling, and even contemplating divorce. Once they finally confronted one another though, they decided to build up their relationship, brick by brick, all on the foundations of having fun. Chessie also shares details of Mat's postnatal depression, something that isn't discussed enough in men. Follow Chessie on Instagram @chessiekingFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

As soon as I heard him say It would probably be easier to leave each other Than stay together and work hard on it Even though that's all I wanted to hear for eight months Like him giving me permission to leave It was so bizarre It was like this I can't I actually can't end this

Hello and welcome back to should I delete that I'm Alex Light Guys there is no GBA this morning we are fresh off of tour we are a bit knackered and just trying to sort our normal lives out a lot going on so we're jumping straight into this week's interview with the brilliant Chessie King a super candid episode that goes into marriage struggles and postpartum depression in men two things that we just don't talk openly enough about so thank you so much to Chessie for this episode and we hope you love it as much as we do.

Hello Chessie. We're excited to have you in. We've known each other from a distance for like years because I feel like I've only met you like a few like a handful of times. But you don't have that energy. I don't have that energy. I think you could meet someone once

and they're like, oh my gosh, she's like my best friend. Oh, that's really sweet. Well, I just feel like, yeah, you kind of get to know people online so then you do like the research and you need like stuff. I feel like you only get to know someone when you meet their parents and I just met your mum and I'm really, I feel like I know you now. Because especially your sisters and like, I love knowing,

like the other day at Alice's wedding, I had to know. I'm not just that friends' family divide. You know at weddings, like they don't really mix, friends and family. They're just like, oh, we're their best friends and we're their family. So I tried to get like in with the family. Oh, my God, I learned like the whole family tree and it's a Jewish family tree. So it was like so intricate.

And then I was like, it's so nice knowing Alice's background as one of my best friends who I've known for like 10 years. And I love that because you've got to know I'm too lazy for that but that is so nice I feel like you don't know someone until like because right

at this age we meet our friends or I'm not really on the hunt for new friends but like we meet someone and we don't know the lives that like they've just had their backgrounds and it's so weird like you've had so much before your relationship and then I feel like you just like understand them all

when you meet family and delve into their past that's so true that's a really good point actually Yeah. That's really kind of you to like go and meet all the family. Oh, I love them all. They were serious to be.

And they all quizzed me on the family tree and I managed to get A-Star. Did you get A-Star and anything else, but that. You are a good friend. I think that is a very cancer-y, cancerian thing because like I have to know someone's name. And if I don't know it, I say it with confidence. And if I get it wrong, I'm like, oh, sorry.

Like I suppose. No, but I did that once to a woman and it still lives, it happened about nine years ago. And I introduced her to my husband. I was like, this is Lucy. And she went. It's not Lucy. I'm not Lucy.

That's going to live in my head now. And I still think about it so often. I was so fucking sure I was talking to this woman Lucy. It was her name. That's the worst bit. That's even worse that you don't remember now. Because everything, everything went high pitched. The minute she said, I'm not Lucy, everything just went.

Your blood went cold. Yeah, that was it. I could have seen my own blood running in my ears. And I was like, that's, I'm dead now. This is out of body. And I'm never doing that again. So now everyone's, oh, babe, darling, lovely. Yeah, that's it.

As soon as I say, hi, lovely, Matt just knows straight away. So he then... He has to introduce himself. Yeah, it's his, like, cue to go, sorry, didn't get your name. And I'm like, yes, I love you. That is that, like, one thing we're good at is a couple, getting, like, having each other's backs and getting each other's names for the other person. Me and David, not like that.

Dave was just look at me like, who's this then? I'm like, introduce me, if you hate that. You don't know her name, do you? Pick up for my fucking cues, mate. He would say that as well. My husband would say that. He's weird. He is weird.

He's great. He's weird. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, we keep going off course. But, yeah, we know each other for a while. And we wanted to get you in to have a general chat anyway, because it's just nice chatting to you. It's really nice chatting to you.

But you did a post the other day that we thought was so cool. And it was a super, like super transparent, like, post about your relationship with your husband and it was really amazing to see because I think like there are marital issues and relationship issues for everyone like everyone is going to especially after having a baby like you know I mean we're only four months in so we're still kind of in the thick of it I think we're in the dead still ready to kill it no aren't you still in the trenches yeah yeah um but already I can see like the huge strain that having a baby puts on your reality. It's serious. It's huge. We feel

embarrassed to admit that there's like relationship issues or you know there's problems at play and like we don't want to lift the curtain and like show you what's going on behind the scenes. It's like it's almost like it's embarrassing. Yeah. And it's really not at all. And that's why it was so cool to see your post and and the response you got from it as well. I'm sure you got like private response as well. But like the public response was amazing. So many people were just like grateful that you had been so candid and transparent about it. And we were like, we want to talk to her about this because this is really cool. It's so nice to be able to talk about it because you can only say so much in a caption, right?

And Matt's given me like full, what's called when permission. He's given me full permission. He's granted. Oh, that's lovely. And he talks about it too really openly. He's got a podcast. And it's like his space to just like. chat freely about it and I feel like for the eight months that led up to the conversation of

what I wanted to hear from him was let's end this then and I'd been waiting to hear him say let's just get a divorce which is so strange because I never thought I'd be in that position and as soon as I heard him say it would probably be easier to leave each other than stay together and work hard on it even though that's all I wanted to hear for eight months like him giving me permission to leave, it was so bizarre. It was like this, I can't, I actually can't end this. Like, in that very moment, he was so vulnerable and so open. And like, I saw Matt for who he was before those eight months.

And before Ralea, actually, it was, he won't mind me saying this at all because he speaks very openly about it. But he thinks he had self-diagnosed postpartum depression. And as a father, that is not spoken about. And if it is spoken about, I don't, I haven't really seen the conversation. And he really, really struggled. I think it was a mix. It was a cocktail of us getting pregnant in COVID.

Our wedding being changed three times, like everyone in lockdown. And he wasn't in that mental headspace. A week before we had Aurelia, he literally broke down. And he just went, I don't know if I can do this. I was like, it's coming. We've got seven days. And there was a lot. I think it was him watching me be sick up to 25 times a day,

which you understand them. It's a lot on us, but it's also a lot for them because he couldn't be in hospital with me when I was just like hooked up to pillows full of liquids when I was being in hospital. So it was a mix of things. And do you know what? Everything he said in this conversation,

like we have three conversations. And every time like it starts in like December and every time we had a conversation, it would get more and more honest, which I'm so glad. Like the first conversation, he'd had a therapy session that morning, the first time.

I hadn't pushed him into it or anything, but he basically sat down and just said, what's it like living with me? And his therapist had like fed him that line, which was amazing because it opened up, like it allowed me to go, oh, fuck, okay. And I went, uh, it's like living with my housemate. Like I feel like a completely unrecognizable version of myself. Like I've never felt this awkward with you. I've never felt like we're so disconnected.

I basically said, and it took me a lot to say this, but I was like, I don't want another baby with this version of you. And he knows how much I want a big family. And he just went, well, if that's the case, then we can't be together. Because I know that that's what you want. And I want to allow you to go on and have a bigger family. But if you don't want it with me, then fine. And that was like a real, whew.

And it was a big conversation. Like, obviously I'm squeezing it into a, very, like, small chat, but we had maybe like 10 hours worth of chat about this situation. And I think he found it so hard to connect with Aurelia in the first year and a half. And everything he was saying kind of gave me that, like, confirmation that I was, why I was feeling the way I was feeling, because he didn't connect with her. He found it so hard. I felt like I was mothering him as well as mothering Aurelia. And as you know, like, it's so difficult. like oh so yeah I was like I'm not your mum but also I'm trying to be a mum for the first time

and you're finding it so hard so he was escaping the problem by leaving and taking jobs that would take him out the country for like three weeks I'd just be left alone having full on breakdowns and now I realize it took away so much of my experience not saying that what he felt was wrong because he's totally valid to feel like that but it up upset me so much that I wanted to be a mum for my entire childhood. That's all I wanted. People would be like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And everyone was like, lawyers, doctors. I'd be like, I just want to be a mum. Oh, I love that. Well, it was so important to me. And actually, I feel like I had that kind of taken away from me. And he knows this. And I really,

I kept on saying to my mom, like, is it normal that I'm finding it this hard? And now I realize the reason I was finding it that hard is because I was trying to like hold Matt's weight of emotions as well. as like, as you know, all the other things that we feel as mothers. So it's a lot, it's a lot. But I feel like from that conversation, we have almost, that was the start of our marriage. Even though we had been married like a year and a half prior to that, that was like the moment that we then were like,

do you know what, let's do this together? And it's been so lovely. Like I tried to explain this to my best friend the other day. I was like, I feel like we were like a tower, like a Jenga tower. and for eight months we were just like building up just co-parenting avoiding every conversation that was like emotional it's just very practical it's like when you're picking up are you picking up or are you dropping off like all very and we didn't spend much time together like in the evenings we just like almost yeah tap out to our own thing and from the moment he said let's like let's just reset

and restart I feel like that jengatau was just like pulled and like a just toppled down we had to kind of like start from scratch and all the emotion was like just there laid out onto the table and I just said to him we've never done this before we've never been in a relationship this long before we've never been married before we've never had children before and like we don't really know what to do so what is the next steps I just said let's strip it back down to being best friends let's show Aurelia how much fun we had before having her because that's what like our relationship was the foundations of it was just fun and we lost all of that it became so serious and so boring and so like you know when

you're just not talking after like oh it's just not a relationship I wanted to be in but yeah that's a lovely metaphor the jenga tower it's kind of the only way I can describe it yeah it really makes sense yeah that I can't imagine that moment it's like it's even like I'm putting myself in your position as I just saying at that moment when he was like okay so let's just end it It must have been like, but then I guess that's what you wanted as well. I really wanted it. So confusing, like so conflicting. Yeah, it was bizarre because for honestly, I never even thought I'd utter the words divorce.

I'd never even thought of the word because I just never saw Matt and I going through that. Like we, it's funny because everyone was like, oh, we're having these big blowouts and big arguments. And we genuinely weren't. We were just not communicating. And it was so strange because we've never really had. big arguments. We're not really like that. I never, I don't think I've ever raised my voice at him in the eight years we've been together just because that's not how I communicate. If I have a problem, I have a problem and sit down and we chat it through. But there was never any like big argument

that I was like, right, will it like this is it. I need to leave. It was just a buildup of like pregnancy, Aurelia. And he told things like he told me that he couldn't enjoy the wedding as much as he thought he could, which really, I was like, oh my God. But we were like, I was at, we were 11 months in. Like, Rayleigh was at the wedding, she was 11 months, she wasn't meant to be there. It all just like makes sense for how we were both feeling. And it's hard that it's like, there's no, it's hard for it to be anger if it's sadness and if it's mental health and, you know, you can't, it's not the like typical, like,

oh, this waste of space husband of mine, you know, this kind of like trope that, that you hear and that's what you think, but the reality is so much sadder than that. So much sadder. That's what, honestly, that's how I felt, that I was like, through sickness and in health, and this was like mental sickness. He was so, like, almost, like, kidnapped by this depression

and, like, anxiety, and he was so sad. He wake up and, like, he said he had this feeling in his stomach that was just, like, a knot. And, like, he couldn't really bring. read every time we woke up and it was like he woke up every morning and was like oh my god I'm still the person I was that I, the version of myself I was when I went to sleep last night and it's not dissipated and he said he woke up that every morning feeling like I can't do this I can't step up as a dad I can't be a responsible husband I can't feel the weight of this like

new family dynamic and that was so sad to hear and I think because I was speaking about it to my family of speaking about it to my friends and obviously they validate how you're feeling they were like well of course you're going to feel like that and and then when you whittle it down and strip it back down it was just mental health he was struggling so much and he was almost at that point where he said he was like I had a full mental breakdown and I couldn't he went away for three days so for my Christmas present I bought him unplugged you know where you go away or you literally put your phone in a box every guy went to school we started that really oh amazing shout out oh yeah they're doing really well Yeah, really well.

So I booked him in, I think it was probably the best and the worst thing for him because he was so alone that he felt like horrendous. But it gave him that like almost that reset to go, right, I really need to face this. This was before our chat, our big chat. And it actually gave him that time to like just compute everything and to think, what do I need here? Like I'm in such, like the depths of depression. What am I going to do to turn it around? save Aurelia, save my marriage with Chessie, like, and I think as well, there are so many

people that have come to me personally, like best friends or friends that I haven't seen for ages that have rung me honestly after that post. And I followed up with another post kind of explaining a little bit more. I think the first post provoked like five calls from people that I thought were in the happiest of marriages. Not, not like you said at the beginning, Alex, that like I know every marriage has its complexities and whatever, but I genuinely thought, oh, they've all got kids and they're all very. And they all just said that post could have potentially saved our marriage

because it's made me think, oh, there's a conversation to be had instead of just going, fuck this, I'm out, I'm tapping out. And since then, it's been wild. And I'm still kind of supporting, and so is Matt, which is so nice, especially one couple that they've been together for 12 years. Matt's supporting the husband. I'm supporting the wife. if they're not really communicating between them yet,

but I feel like we're kind of dealing with it in our separate parts and how nice that Matt's able to go, look, we got to the very, very, like, end to start from the beginning again and now we can help other people kind of go through it. We called ourselves the marriage managers. I'm here to manage your marriage. I love that. Matt's so into football.

He's like, I'm a football manager. I'm a marriage manager. But yeah, it's amazing how I've literally reversed the ick. I don't think anyone, no one that I've ever, known is reverse the ick. Once you get the ick, you get the irreversible. I'm here to prove it's not irreversible. I honestly, I got the full on ick from many things and he knows that I did, especially when we were skiing and I was like, oh my God, why am I feeling like this? Because I dropped my glove and everyone was looking for my glove apart from that. He just didn't care

about my glove. And I was like, ugh, why do you not care about my glove? And that was the very worst of my marriage, how funny that I literally got upset about a glove. And yeah, I've reversed the ick. It's wild. It's taken a while, but I look at him now. I'm like, my God, I love you. It's so nice. I think that's really cool to hear actually, because I thought the ick, or just like,

I thought, I don't know, very cynical, but I did think that falling out of love with someone that you've previously been in love with, it wasn't reversible. And I think there's like the idea that once it's done it's done to hear that it's not and actually you can get back to like just not being in like an okay place but like a really good place. I think like we don't take mental health into like I was saying in the interview with your mom out that like breastfeeding made me insane and it's only now I don't do

it anymore. I'm like oh. That's why I was horrifying. Really? Well not so much at the beginning. I think I was fine but towards the end it was and I think it was like the they say it's like when you end it and I ended it for ages and I stopped and then we went me and Alex. went to Japan and I started doing it again loads because we were out of whatever like comfort she needed comfort and I think that rush of hormones and it made me like a genuine mental person and I was horrible like to Alex I was horrible and I swear to when we got back I was like there's there's no marriage here I'm and it was just because I'm so horrible and it wasn't him it's like I've become and I just had this like insane two weeks where I'm just like I'm a mental

person because I just started fights about everything and because it but it's mental and it's so interesting that you can go through these like and obviously I think what happens for a lot of people and it sounds like what happened to you it's like it was a really long I think I had this very random intense two weeks of like insanity on my own part and then I came home and I was like oh okay love you just don't worry about anything I've said in the last two weeks forget it all what holiday but I think like yeah that that showed showed me that when one of you goes out of kilter, the effect that it can take, the effect that it has, like, really quickly, it can have. And I feel like I'm such chameleon in the fact that

like, if he was low energy or like a bit off, then I was a bit off with him and then I wouldn't be like. And that's, that is, that is, sorry, that is cancer. And that's like, big empath is that thing? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's just a female thing as well. Yeah. And you need everyone around you to be happy. Yeah. And you, as a mother, you, all your, you're, hormones were motherly and maternal at that time. Yeah. So it's not really surprising that you felt that you had to look after him too. It's so true.

The only thing that I felt as a mother, they're like, I think a lot of people feel this, but I had such a urge to, oh, like, just not anger, but like jealousy. I've never felt jealousy. Like, I have a sister and a brother. I've never, ever grown up in like a jealous environment. I've never felt jealous.

Ha ha ha. five girls though not competitive but I was upset when my sisters were born but it's a story really oh my god I was told that they were mine and I had to look after them so I was like four years old when Bronte was handed to me I was like oh I've had a baby

literally I went into school being like I've had a baby because my parents was like you look after you take her so it was mad I thought I'd had a child before but yeah it's I'd never felt that jealousy until the first few weeks first few months last year when Mac just walk out the fucking house without any care. And now I know that he was just fully escaping. Like he like many other husbands and partners and dads signed up to like four

triathlons. I was like, you've never done a triathlon. Why are you doing a triathlon now? Why are you training for a triathlon after like two weeks? And I was just sat there with my nipples bleeding. I was like, hold on. You don't need to do it. And then he told me he was just going to do an iron man all this. But it was just pure escapism. And now I see why. Like at first I was just so angry and jealous that he could just walk out the door. without any care in the world. And, like, I remember just being on our first of a holiday and with all my family.

And they were just off having the best time, like, in the sea. And I was just sat there watching them all like, I don't think I'll ever, ever come back from this. Like, I would always be trapped in this, like, situation of being her provider and, like, sole provider. And, yeah, it's, it's wild. Did you know that it was escapism from that at the time? No.

Did you realize his mental health was in a bad place or did you just think it was the marriage? that was in a bad place. I think at the beginning, I knew that it was a huge shift for him and he, I just don't, maybe from that conversation that we had just a week before Rayleigh was coming,

I knew that he was struggling. So I kind of went, it's fine, I'll do it, I'll pick up the pieces. And I kind of got to know, very, like, aware of his emotions and, well, I thought I was. And I knew that he didn't like bath time.

I knew that he didn't like putting her to bed. I knew, so I kind of then was like, oh, well, I'll do all that. Don't worry, because if you don't enjoy it, or if you're struggling, I can do that. Whereas now I'm very much, I've always been the one that will step in and do things for people and not myself.

And now I realize I actually just needed him to take care of me and I didn't really get that. And I remember really clearly saying to him, if you can't help with Aurelia, please just help with me. I feel like, he was like, I can't breastfeed and I can't do this. I was like, yeah, but that's fine. Of course you can't breastfeed her, but you can help me when I'm breastfeeding.

put pillows under my arms like you're still helping me as much as you can't help her and i think that's one thing that father's really struggle with like oh but i can't help with the baby help the fucking mother help the baby then because like oh i just find but but first time i feel like you're just thrown into it and you have no idea and we didn't do nc t we didn't do bump we didn't do we didn't do any of that because it was covid and i also thought because i trained as a dole i was like oh it'll be fine i know everything but matt didn't know how to change a fucking nappy. He didn't know how to hold a baby. He didn't know any of that. And I think that palled up on top of him, that weight of like, I don't know what I'm doing here. I literally

don't know what I'm doing. I'm just learning from Chessie. And she like, he was like, you know what you're doing. You know everything. So yeah, I think I was aware maybe at the beginning. And then I was a bit like, well, come on, mate, you've been in it for long enough. And it honestly, it was when he told me in that conversation when he was like, for the first year and a half, I couldn't connect with her. And that's a long fucking time. No wonder I was feeling the way I was feeling because that's like, you think, 18 months of me trying to like hold up the weight of the family. And he won't mind me saying this, but I was doing it emotionally, physically. I felt like I was doing it emotionally, physically, mentally and

financially. And that weight of it all kind of just came like tumbling down. I remember having this huge breakdown where he was out, he was out till like four. And I never reach out to my friends and say, I need fucking help. So the moment I text the Golden Girls group and I think I was maybe like eight months postpartum I don't really remember but Ray had been screaming the entire day he'd been out the whole day and I was literally like I don't know what to do and I remember just like throwing myself on the floor and just screaming crying you know when you're just in hysterics and I was like I need fucking help like it was like nine o'clock it was pitch black I don't know why I'd been in you know when you just feel like you're in this vortex of like black room with white noise pitch black he was out having fun and I honestly felt so lonely in that moment and I remember the texting the girls and they all literally called me and I was like why am I finding this so hard like I never thought I'd find mothering this hard because it's all I've ever wanted to do and they were like because you're not having the support that you need you're not getting that support and my love language was touch and love and everything and Ray is very much like that

like obviously you're always stuck to each other and she now gives me cuddle she like instead of like me put my arm around her she'll put her arm around me and I'll snuggle into her whereas Matt doesn't speak that like he's not always being touching and lovely and I've known that from the start it's not like I bought into a false sense of security but I really needed that I felt like I needed that love and that affection

and that comfort and touch when I was in the depths of like postpartum and I think that all built up just to be looked after and cared for and like how are you not angry I think I was so it got to a real place of anger and that's like where the conversation

kind of like started around the new year and I kind of was I think it was more like yeah just it all bit up of like no wonder I'm fucking feeling like this like and it was an anger and it's weird because I've been told by therapists that I don't have you seen the spectrum of emotions and like half of it is happy emotions and half of it is sad and it's really funny like both times and I haven't mentioned it to the other therapists they've said you only ever experienced the first half because you're so, you're always just very, like, happy and, like, caring and, like, all of the feelings that you've been brought up with because your childhood has, I've been so lucky that that's kind of what I've seen. And they said, so all of those feelings underneath, the anger,

the guilt, the, like, all of those feelings, the jealousy, you don't actually feel properly. And it's only when it bubbles up that you're like, what am I feeling? What am I feeling? What am I feeling and that's maybe why I don't have difficult conversations easily that's maybe why I don't shout at him maybe why I don't not shout at him but bring like a kind of entice an argument or I don't think that's the right word but anyway and I think I felt that spectrum of emotions around Christmas and I was like I just don't want to be in this relationship anymore and actually for me and I know that there's so many people that have been through this especially our rage and mothers are like the idea of dropping Aurelia off at Matt's house and then coming

coming back to an empty house of mine when she has her daddy weekends or mummy weekends broke me and I'm not just saying it because I want like to stay with Matt because of Aurelia that was never ever ever a reason why I stayed with Matt because I believe that like she'd in 15 16 years go mom why didn't you just leave or mom why didn't you just choose the thing that would have been best for you at that time. I didn't stay with him because of that at all. But the thought of that separation and like being a single mom at 30 and all of that really did like hit home.

And I told him that and he was like, well, don't stay with me just because of that. And I was like, it's never because of that. I just, I read something really interestingly that kind of, well, not read something actually. It was one of my best friends said, um, her. mom wishes that she hadn't made the decision to divorce her dad, her husband, when Ellie was two. And she said, tell, tell Chessie, because she kind of knew what was going on. Don't make any decisions in the first three to five years of your child's life. Don't make any decisions on the

future of like your relationship based off of that first three to five years. And that has really like stayed with me because I'm like you are in such a heightened state of like emotion and hormones and stress and it's a new territory that you're like experiencing and I feel like that really has stuck with me I'm like I'm not making any decisions for Matt and I's future based on these years that feel really difficult and hard. Are your friends angry with him? They were yeah especially my best friend and she was like I can see it and my sister at the time that ski trip that I was really fucking angry with him about um the glove she my sister even went like I see I see why you're feeling like this and she was like you don't make any sense together at the moment you're so disconnected

that it's actually unbearable to be around and I was like oh my god and that's like my best friend my sister like who's seen me go through all these relationships that obviously haven't worked her and then this one that but she kept on saying to me you're not in a relationship tessie you're in a marriage you're not just it's not he's not your boyfriend like you've got a baby with him you've got he's you you've got a signed certificate that says and that almost made me annoyed i was annoyed at her for saying that because i know bronte but this is how i'm feeling but now i now i understand in that very moment i was like you don't understand you're not married you don't have a kid you have no idea what i'm feeling but now i'm saying like

it is so easy to be like i'm going to leave him but you're married you've you promised each other that you would stay through the difficult times but yeah does it make you feel sad about the wedding knowing that you guys weren't in the best place at that time do you know what it felt like at the time we were in a really good place which yeah that's what confused me and kind of shocked me a bit because I was like I had a brilliant time and I thought we were so in love and it was amazing yeah genuinely was like I thought we were phenomenal it was only until about maybe yeah like a year year and a half after the wedding that things started to get and and then I and then he said I

really struggled I didn't enjoy the wedding as much as I would have liked to and I was like I've just spent all this money on a wedding and spent yeah and I remember looking at the wedding video I remember my first reaction this was like three days after the wedding and I watched the wedding video and I was like I don't think I enjoyed that I really don't think might enjoyed the day and now he said like he felt really anxious and obviously there are some some people that don't enjoy a whole wedding that the attentions on you was a big wedding there was a lot going on and also he was 11 months postpartum and he was still feeling the way that he now describes his postpartum depression so obviously he wasn't going to be in the best state of

mind but I really I honestly was so in love with them at the wedding like I genuinely didn't even fill an ounce of like this shouldn't be happening because if I did before the wedding I would have called it off 100% even though we'd push it back and back and back and we ended up having like the longest engagement I didn't realize we'd even have um but yeah it's difficult I feel like there's so much like even four months in you must be like wow this this dynamic has really changed between Dave and you totally yeah totally and it's it's just it's just difficult it is just difficult there's like a totally different yeah dynamic different pressures that weren't there before and it's just like that you can have like a very or what i didn't think of as at the

time as like a very like carefree relationship i just i just it was what it was i didn't have anything else to compare it to and i'm like that you have to like grieve that don't you you have to like that's gone now we've got this huge responsibility and some think that i don't if this is the right thing to say, but, like, means more than the relationship ever will, you know? It's like, it's bigger than us now, and it's like this crazy, intense thing in our lives, and we will never go back to those carefree people and that carefree couple. And you've got to not just love them as a partner and as a person for you, but you've got to respect them as a father and trust that they're the best person for your kid.

Yeah. That is something that I feel experienced. financially grateful for is that because I'm a bit of a control freak with certain things and I that was my big fear was that I was going to go this is my precious baby and I know what's best for her yeah and I'm not going to be able to trust Alex to know what's best yeah and I was wrong you know I did and I was like that was just and also you I mean you had we both had C sections yeah yeah I how was it immediately afterwards because that was the thing for me was like I need him yeah I didn't change

a napi she was born on Wednesday I couldn't change the nappy until Monday because I couldn't we didn't have a surface in the fucking house where I could put her down and not have to bend down with your scar and I was so upset and I was like crying about it every day and I was like watching him doing it I was like you're a better mom than me oh you're a better mom with me that is brilliant I'm so upset it's well though because you have to hand over basic responsibilities like Matt was literally taking me to the toilet to watch if I done away I was like oh my god we're at this at this stage we're still right at the beginning he was incredible at the beginning like And he had to leave three hours after she was born, which really broke me.

And I was the only person on our entire ward, the recovery ward. I wasn't even recovering on the recovery ward, ironically. And I remember she didn't even sit in, you know, that little basinet that you have? Like, you see all the babies getting photos in, like, oh, my baby's here, welcome to the world. She didn't even touch that. She was on me the entire time here like this, couldn't move, didn't even unpack my hospital bag, didn't even look at it. It was like on the floor, so I couldn't get to it. and everyone else was fast to sleep

and she was just there on me the entire night I was like wide awake and I honestly think how could they have sent Matt home when I didn't even know my name I should not have been responsible for a child then and they were obviously understaffed because it was COVID but yeah

he was phenomenal like he really really stepped up he didn't know what to do but he was still like well this is fun like and at first he was incredible and then I think it just slowly just really ate away at him Because post-natal depression for men, you're right, it's like, I didn't even really know.

I'm embarrassed to say that I had no idea it was a thing. No, because I thought it was connected to hormones. Yeah, it must be different. Like, for women, obviously, yeah, it is, it's all the fluctuation of hormones. Whereas for a man, I think it's literally just the, like, overwhelming responsibility of, or the change. I get it. And also, they do go through such a hormonal change. as men. I've learned so much about it, like, towards the end of the pregnancy, like, they then, like, match our levels of estrogen and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not obviously a scientist or female health doctor. But it is amazing, like, how much they then go through it, because they have to, as like cavemen, they then had to step up and protect us and the baby. But interesting, what you were saying about Alex becoming a better mom than you, like, when you had a caesarean, I realized that I, and I, and talking about,

towards like the end of what could have been the end. I was saying to all my friends, like I love him so much as Aurelia's dad now that he's enjoying it. And now, oh my God, it's a completely different level. Now she's at, she's three in July. She is at such, their relationship is phenomenal. And I'm like, oh my God, thank God I didn't leave him.

Like, honestly, that love between, like, this morning in bed, she like snuggled up around him. And then she looked at him and she went, dad you make me so happy and I was like oh my god like and he for him to have that is so special and I look at them together now and I'm like some parents and I've heard this a lot with like my friends who are older and have like kids and they're done with all the toddler years they say that a lot of their friends and a lot of them they didn't enjoy the first two three years of parenthood and some parents thrive in the child years instead of the toddler and baby

years they love it when they turn four or five and then they're amazing parents from that day on whereas some struggle so much with those early years some absolutely love it and then they get to a toddler child year and they're like oh i can't deal with this like it's so different and it can be different obviously in the couples like yeah but i i just feel like now he's stepped into it he's spoken so openly with his therapist with friends with strangers on his podcast about it that he's now like oh right okay well that was a phase that was a season and I'm out of it and everything feels a bit clearer and he's it's only just and this was a big thing for me which is why I said I don't want another baby with the version of him he's only just started talking about a second and he's so

excited about it and there's a lot of me that's scared that we would go through that again that phase and obviously I'm scared about the HD and all of that but I am I'm so sure now that he would be able to tackle it in a very different way and he'd be strong enough to hold me up and Aurelia and another child and I would love to have a bigger family with him but I think it is quite scary it's that unknown of like will you go through those feelings again will you connect with the child for the first year and a half you just don't know and like yeah I'd love to be able to go through it again with him and experience it totally differently yeah yeah and not set any expectations

of he will enjoy this but just be like well we've been through the worst so what like what else can happen experience is everything isn't it yeah yeah like if you were to go through the same thing again i don't think it would be the same like it wouldn't be so lonely no exactly and you'd know what was happening you'd be so much more in like in tune with each other yeah for sure yeah it's pretty well i think it's really cool that he's speaking so openly about it as well and so publicly because i mean like we said we didn't even know that it existed like postnatal depression for men and like that's crazy we didn't even know that like imagine how many men like they won't know that they wouldn't know what's happening to them and happening to

their minds and just be feeling so isolated and yeah but like worse because they they don't even they can't even put their finger on what it is and they don't have a clue what it is so it's I think it's really cool that he's talking about it it is amazing and I don't think men actually feel like they can experience that because we've been through it all I feel like they're like What right have I? Yeah, what right have I to feel like this when my wife's just given birth to our child or whatever? But it is a huge shift and a huge change in their lives.

Do you feel like yours and Alex's relationship, like you are so in tune with each other and so open with each other that you've kind of just like got on with it? Or do you think there's moments that you're like, what? We've definitely had to learn. It's what I was saying before about like going from, because we'd been together for 10 years before we had. Arlo. So it's like we had a completely great dynamic. You know, we worked in a relationship

really well and we'd grown together really well. But you do have to learn, you have to recalibrate when you become parents because it is an element of respect, trust and space from each other, like, because you don't spend all that time with you, because you, by virtue of like, time or whatever, like one of you is with the kids so the other one can rest. And Alex is without a doubt the kindest person I know and has done so much for me within motherhood

and he's tried to understand it and I think maybe I've wanted him to understand it more than he did but that's not really fair on my part because it's impossible I can't explain the hormones particularly it wasn't pregnant I mean pregnancy was fucking brutal for me but that was fine and he was amazing

throughout that I loved the newborn stage because I was so happy happy not to be throwing up. Yeah. And I wasn't an anxious mom and I loved that first bit. But when I got to the end of that breastfeeding and I was trying to work and I was trying to juggle it, that was probably the hardest bit because I needed to lean on him, but he had to do everything for, he had to, he was at capacity.

He had to do his job. And we were both at capacity. And I think everybody goes through a point, you will go through a point within the first couple of years of having a baby where something's hard and you can't quite work it out. And I think for us, it's probably the end of my breastfeeding. Because I was just completely irrational. And now I look back and I'm like, I was insane. And I needed more from him than he had to give.

But that's about, that's, I understand why I needed what I needed. And I understand why he couldn't give me what I needed. And then when I leveled out, we're fine. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, yeah, I don't feel like you've got more support though at the beginning of Arlo's like life. And it was like, oh, she just had a baby. Let's like, who need to?

Like, where do you need the help? I think the overwhelm and the guilt of, we talk about this quite a lot, Alan, I got out of my. And I don't think, on some generalisation, I don't think men can understand that. I don't think they can understand fully the, like, horrible guilt when you're torn in pieces. And for me, it's never been Arlo that's been difficult.

It's never been being a mom that's been trying to do everything else and trying to work. And he's so much better at, I'm going to work. now by baby and I can't I couldn't do that and I think hormonally you can't I'm by nature of who I am as a person I'm not like that and that was where I really like really struggled to like I don't know to yeah to be to be to do well enough for everything and he just couldn't but I couldn't explain it and it's something now I've come through and I do think having another baby will be easier and having other babies will be easier because

I can see hindsight yeah it's brutal when you go through it it really is. And it's hard. And I found, I remember saying to you at like, maybe eight months. Like, I feel like the grace has gone or even five months. It's like, I feel that the newborn grace has gone. And it's like, oh my God, I needed more help than ever. Like, yeah, yeah. And that's hard. Yeah, where's all the offers of support when you actually need it? Yeah, when things get difficult. Asking how you are. That's it. Yeah. I, I actually had one incredible friend who has taught me more about support than anyone in my entire life and she checked him with me. I don't know if she had like a reminder on her phone that said check in with Jessie every morning at nine. Honestly, I say for the first year,

there was not a day she missed. She literally checked on me every single day. Like it's her job. She's sleeping bunnies, Anna. And she, I honestly cannot tell you how much it helped. And I, it's so strange. She has three kids of her own. And it was almost like I just had that like, oh my God, thank God. Like someone still knows that I'm alive and I'm here and it's still hard. Yeah, it's still difficult, exactly. And it gets harder, I think,

because you are in this elation, like, running on, like, all the different love hormones and oxytocin and whatever at the beginning and then it starts dwindling and the breastfeeding then starts, yeah. And you're like, oh my God, no, like, yeah. But someone actually said to me, a friend who's older,

he's got two older kids on the weekend. She said, there was me, at the beginning, like it started off as me. Then I met my husband and it was him. Then it was me and him. And then it was me, him and the kid and then the first child. Then it was me him, first child and the second child. But she said, I always have to go back to that me on my own and that him on him, his own to be like, right, that's the true versions of me. And we've got to revisit those. Then we come back together. Then we come back as like a four. And that was so nice for me to be like, because time on your own. Like you hear so much. of like me time and this and this and I'm like I always kind of put us three before me and it's kind of like stripping all back being like right let's go back to us as separate entities and then we can come back together like whenever it feels a lot and I feel like I've I've definitely the Aurelia's nearly three so it's a lot easier but I've definitely revisited that Chessie before and it feels so liberating like I genuinely and I don't

know if many people are going to like me saying this, but I don't feel mum guilt anymore at all. Good for you. Oh my God, I love that. But it's so good. Freeing. I don't feel it so much anymore. Okay, good. Because like the first year, oh my. I haven't left it yet though. I haven't left for the night. So maybe there's something to start jumping. Oh, see where like, yeah, that, that it just takes a while. But I also had this mindset where I was like, if I'm away from her and I'm missing her, what's the point in being away from her? Because like that missing her, like, I know I'll be back with her soon and I want her to see me going away and working and coming back and like talking we speak a speak a day every day about her day and then mummy's day and then hugo the dog's day um he ate your

shit this morning literally but I think it's so nice that I can tell her and come back and be like you want to hear about what I've been doing and she's so fascinated and I want her to see that like yeah I don't want her to ever grow up and when she's older going like why didn't you just take that job mom I would have been fine or yeah Like, I want to tell her all the stories of, like, when she was younger. Because I look at things that my mum did when I was young, and I'm like, that's so cool that you did that. Not like, why did you leave me?

Yeah, like, yeah, yeah. I just, yeah, so I kind of think of, like, it's a really nice way of thinking of, like, what would Aurelia say, like, 16-year-old Aurelius say to my decision right now? She'd be like, go on, mum. Yeah, go fucking do it. Yeah, don't miss me. I'll be fine. Got dad.

Yeah. Like, or, yeah, so it's a really. nice way of thinking and I always come back to like that if it's not for her yeah then it's for like my 80 year old self and like what would 80 year old chessie look back and think like yeah just fucking do it yeah this has been so good so amazing so amazing and like also to talk about it it's the first time i've spoken about it there's not like on an instagram post yeah because there's so much more to say about it and like it is a big topic and we're still chatting about it like we make sure that we have like our check-ins and we're very like we step away from

that seriousness like and it's so nice just have fun again and be like this is the couple that we are we're not like serious transactional practical like we're very much like let's just it's a very generous thing that you've done though to open up like this yes it's amazing it will make people feel i mean it's validating you know like i'm sure you feel the same but like it's validating to know that if you find it hard, if you find your relationship difficult, you're not on your own. Not at all. Yeah.

Not at all. And the fact that you can reverse something that feels irreversible. And also, this like Instagram reality stuff, and people do compare themselves and maybe people have been comparing themselves to you by virtue of what we do on the internet. And for you to be honest.

Yeah, I do feel like though a lot of people realized like over the eight months that I wasn't really posting him. I didn't want that to be like, because I never wanted to create that illusion that we were perfect. So people started noticing that, like, around like three months of me not really posting anything about Matt and I or Matt, they were like, wait, hold on, what's going on? And it was like eight months worth of not really saying, not really posting about him. Because I was like, I don't want people to think that were great or we're, but I also didn't

want to be like that. It's hard. Yeah, it's really hard to know what to do. It's also your private, very personal life. It's not, yeah. That's it. And it's a strange word. I also wanted to speak to you quickly about like your opinions on showing arlo and tommy's faces on instagram because i feel like we're all very similar in the fact we don't yeah and do you feel comfortable talking about it yeah yeah totally for me this decision is really simple because if you ever publish a photo of your child online the media have access to your child until you're 18 so for me as long as my family's in the public eye i want arlo completely removed because this means that she will never be photographed well, she could be photographed,

but they will never be able to publish an unpixelated photo of her face in the newspapers. So for me, that was a complete, that's my, yeah, no, like, I want her protected. I don't want her to ever have to Google herself. I don't want, I don't want anything like that. So mine didn't really feel like the sort of,

I mean, there was the element of consent, which is, that's my other thing. Yeah, absolutely. She can't consent. But, yeah, on that level alone, I never even had to have the conversation further because it was just like, well, no, I don't want anyone to have access to her.

Alex was like from the offset totally with that yeah my mom was like everyone yeah my whole family yeah I like yeah I was I was allowed to be photographed yeah and do you feel angry about that like not angry but no because who could have known you know my parents did a hello she with me when I was a baby but who could have known what that would enable yeah you know like social media didn't exist exactly yeah back yeah yeah so right but for you it's more for me it's more caution really yeah and it's the unknown I just feel like you It's consent as well, that he can't consent. But then it's also, I just feel like the internet is such an unknown.

We don't know where it's heading. We don't know where it's going. There's already so much scary stuff out there. And I just, I feel like from my own peace, it feels too vulnerable to expose him. I don't know. It feels like exposing him. And I just, and I wasn't, I didn't really, I mean, Dave felt quite strongly about it. And I was like, yeah, sure.

I just didn't really have that much. of an opinion I guess until he was born yes and then when he was here I was like oh god like I feel this like it's funny isn't it very animalistic like urge to protect him and there is just no way I can show his face online like I couldn't just couldn't bring yourself I'm exactly the same when I was pregnant I didn't really think about it at all and then as soon as she was there the one thing for me is I can take criticism and shit and trolls and horrible hate comments and whatever but to comment on my baby I was like absolutely not and literally

from like day one I was like I'm never showing her face and like it's funny because I feel like I've lost so many ads but I don't care at all like as in someone said the other day like you'd get so many more campaigns if you showed a face I was like but I've gained the confidence and feel so proud of myself that I haven't used her face for any of that and like yeah I and the fact that in the long term we are literally protecting them in every single way offline to then go and show her face online it really makes me uncomfortable like I don't know where that photo's going to be used I've noticed what you said like about you said something that Matt didn't know and you're like I'll tell him when I get home and it's like if you're going to talk about

somebody else if I ever shared a photo of you I'd be like hey can I put this on my Instagram yeah you'd ask you ask your friends you are yeah mom do you mind if I put this up yeah and I I yeah you try Tommy couldn't really say yes yeah exactly I see I ask now when I'm taking a photo of I'm like, sweetheart, can I take a photo of you? Or like, she'll say, Mommy, can take a photo of me?

Like, she's honestly hilarious. And I would never, like that, my close friends is like my shrine for Arelia because all my close friends, like, all my best friends are like, I just want to see her face. I don't even put her on close friends. No, you don't really.

Interesting. Just in case there's one person that screenshots I just can't. I'm so, I'm so, I'm so. I don't have that level of fit, but I don't have the, yeah. I don't have the chance. No, I trust all my clothes.

friends. I completely trust all my close friends. That's so interesting. I just cannot do it. I just can't put it online. I don't know why. I'm really weird about it now. But that's so good. I think the more I've learned about it and the more Matt's more like Dave. So he knows so much about it though. He's pitching a documentary about like the safety of our children online for the future and he's speaking to the Met Police about like what happens in the... I'll talk to him because I had a stalker as a child. Oh well he yeah it's it's so so scary the it's terrifying and even her voice i think why am i putting her voice up where her voice could be used and AI could then be used as like anything so mad isn't it for anything and i think

the more that we've the less like the more time that we've not shown her face the better yeah and the more i've become confident there is the right decision for her and like i just oh and do you know what i love when people actually meet her in real life like whoever it is they'll go I didn't realize she'd look like that. Oh, my God. And people go, can I see, please see a photo of her? And I'm like, yeah, sure. Like, if I'm at an event or a friend or whatever.

And they're like, oh, that's so sweet. Like, I never even imagined her like that. And it's so nice. Instead of, like, recognizing your child before you. Yeah. Like, there are some influencers, children that I recognize their children. I'm like, oh my God, that's so-and-so's child. And Matt's like, how do you know?

I'm like, well, because they put their faces everywhere. But you've got to try not to, like, I try not to judge as well on the other side at all. interesting thing as well. It's a hard thing because it's like I don't... You don't know? You just don't know. There's no right or wrong. Absolutely. It's for you. There may be. They might... Because it's harder. The more evidence we get

there is probably a right thing to do. But the judgment thing like we do not need any more judgment as mothers. Like I don't judge any of my friends who put their children up. There are some that have put them up until they're two and then they stop. Yeah. But I just think, right, for Aurelia, that is the right decision and for your family. As family, yeah.

But I was just interesting because I feel like so many people find it weird that I don't and I'm like I find it weird that if I would like I'd find it so strange putting her face up I sometimes think like if you look to my social media you wouldn't know how to kid yeah I didn't think yeah this was so weird

I told you on the episode that didn't get and someone messaging me was like why are you like I'm not showing a kid you think you're some kind of celebrity and I replied and I said yes I'm a fucking star that's why see I love as well that you can do your video about bottle feeding but

show the concept of like, yeah, as in like you were the contextory of like you with Tommy feeding him. Yeah. But you didn't have to show his face. Like there are so many other ways that you can, like I found I was annoyed at myself at what like one little moment because I was in her life that I was like, why have I put this barrier up of myself? Like the more boundaries I set for myself of not showing her face, not doing this like and the older she gets, the harder it is not to show. It's so much harder as they get older. Yeah. And you're like, why have I done this? Yeah. You know, When she was a newborn, I could hold her. Of course.

So now if I vlog my day, which I try and be realistic with my day. You can't. But I can't. I can't show her. Because you're with them all the time and if they show their face. So I just keep out massive chunks of my day. And then I'm like, well, this looks unrealistic. And I look like, I'm not showing myself as a mother and blah, blah, blah.

But it's worth it. Yeah, because she's so worth it. Yeah, because she's like this the whole time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But there are other ways that you can like incorporate them. Incorporate them and not show their face, which, yeah.

But it's just an interesting subject. I think a lot more people are doing it now and I see a lot more like people that have just had children I'm like thank God you're on our team there are no teams no right or wrong Jessie thank you so much

Thank you girls thank you so much it's been amazing thank you for letting me speak and like thank you for all your support you've got to come back part two part two when Matt and I throw up imagine we're an open marriage now

go away whatever comes next I love it Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.