Should I Delete That? - Chessie King, Michelle Elman, Lorna Luxe and more… 2024’s Best Bits!

Episode Date: December 30, 2024

Today we’re taking a look back at some of our favourite interview moments from 2024!We have had so many incredible interviews this year, and we’ve learned so much from ALL of our guests - but today, we’ve picked a selection of some of our very favourites.In this episode you will hear selections from the following episodes - follow the links if you would like to listen to any of those interviews in full! Chessie KingLorna LuxeMichelle ElmanCrystal HefnerNicky PerfectGill Tavner Farah BenisThank you for spending the year with us! If there is someone you’d love for us to speak to in 2025 - email us on [e-mail] us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That? is produced by Faye Lawrence Music by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Should I Delete That. We have interviewed so many fascinating people this year. So to celebrate the end of an amazing year, we've decided to take a look back at just a few of our favourite interview moments. In the first half of this episode, you'll hear Chessie King discussing the moment that she thought her marriage was going to break down. Then we'll revisit Lorla Lux's journey from Air Hostess to Instagram legend, and the story of the photo that ended Michelle Elman's engagement. Here's Chessie.

You did a post the other day that we thought was so cool and it was a super like super transparent like candid post about your relationship with your husband and it was really amazing to see because I think like there are marital issues and relationship issues for everyone. Like everyone is going to be. especially after having a baby like you know I mean we're only four months in so we're still

kind of in the thick of it I think we're in the dead still ready to kill it no on you still in the trenches yeah yeah um but already I can see like the huge strain that having a baby puts on your it's serious it's it's huge we feel embarrassed to admit that there's like relationship issues or you know there's problems at play and like we don't want to lift the curtain and like showing what's going on behind the scenes. It's like it's almost like it's embarrassing. Yeah. And it's really not at all.

And that's why it was so cool to see your post. And the response you got from it as well. I'm sure you got like, you know, private response as well. But like the public response was amazing. So many people were just like, like grateful that you had been so candid and transparent about it. And we were like, we want to talk to her about this.

Because this is really cool. It's so nice to be able to talk about it because you can only say so. much in a caption, right? Right. Matt's given me like full, um, what's called when permission.

He's given me full permission. He's granted 100%. And he talks about it too really openly. He's got a podcast and it's like his space to just like chat freely about it. And I feel like for the eight months that like led up to the conversation of what I wanted to hear from him was let's end this then. And I'd been waiting. to hear him say, let's just get a divorce,

which is so strange because I never thought I'd be in that position. And as soon as I heard him say, it would probably be easier to leave each other than stay together and work hard on it. Even though that's all I wanted to hear for eight months, like him giving me permission to leave, it was so bizarre.

It was like this, I actually can't end this. Like in that very moment, he was so vulnerable and so open. And like, I saw Matt for who he was before, before those eight months. And before Ralea, actually, it was, he won't mind me saying this at all because he speaks very openly about it, but he thinks he had self-diagnosed postpartum depression. And as a father, that is not spoken about.

And if it is spoken about, I don't, I haven't really seen the conversation. And he really, really struggled. I think it was a mix. It was a cocktail of us getting pregnant in COVID. Our wedding being changed three times, like everyone in lockdown. And he wasn't in that mental headspace. A week before we had Aurelia, he literally broke down and he just went, I don't know if I can do this. I was like, it's coming.

We've got seven days. And there was a lot. I think it was him watching me be sick up to 25 times a day, which you understand them. It's a lot on us, but it's also a lot for them because he couldn't be in hospital with me when I was just like hooked up to pillows full of liquids when I was being. in hospital so it was a mix of things and do you know what everything he said in this conversation like we have three conversations and every time like it starts in like December and every time we had a conversation it would get more and more honest which I'm so glad like the first conversation he'd had a therapy session that morning the first time he I hadn't pushed him into it or anything but he

basically sat down and just said what's it like living with me and his therapist had like fed him that line which was amazing because it opened up like it allowed me to go oh fuck okay and i went uh it's like living with my housemate like i feel like a completely unrecognizable version of myself like i've never felt this awkward with you've never felt like we're so disconnected i basically said and it took me a lot to say this but i was like i don't want another baby with this version of you and he knows how much i want a big family and he just went well if that's the case

then we can't be together because I know that that's what you want and I want to allow you to go on and have a bigger family but if you don't want it with me then fine and that was like a real and it was a big conversation like obviously I'm squeezing it into a very small chat but we had

maybe like 10 hours worth of chat about this situation and I think he found it so hard to connect with Aurelia in the first year and a half and everything he was saying kind of gave me that like confirmation that I was

why I was feeling the way I was feeling because he didn't connect with her he found it so hard I felt like I was mothering him as well as mothering Eralia and as you know like it's so difficult like oh so yeah I was like I'm not your mum but also I'm trying

to be a mum for the first time and you're finding it so hard so he was escaping the problem by leaving and taking jobs that would take him out of the country for like three weeks I'd just be left alone having full on breakdowns

and now I realize it took away so much of my experience not saying that what he felt was wrong because he was totally valid to feel like that but it upset me so much

that I wanted to be a mum for my entire childhood that's all I wanted to people would be like what do you want to be when you grew up and everyone was like lawyers doctors I'd be like I just want to be a mum

oh I love that Well, it was so important to me. And actually, I feel like I had that kind of taken away from me, and he knows this. And I really, I kept on saying to my mum, like, is it normal that I'm finding it this hard? And now I realize the reason I was finding it that hard is because I was trying to, like, hold Matt's weight of emotions as well. As, like, as, you know, all the other things that we feel as mothers. So it's a lot. It's a lot.

But I feel like from that conversation, we have. almost that was the start of our marriage even though we had been married like a year and a half prior to that that was like the moment that we we then were like do you know what let's do this together and it's been so lovely like I tried to explain this my best friend the other day I was like I feel like we were like a tower like a jenga tower and for eight months we were just like building up just co-parenting avoiding every conversation that was like emotional it's just very practical it's like when you're picking up are you picking up or are you dropping off like all very and we didn't spend much time together

like in the evenings we just like almost yeah tap out to our own thing and from the moment he said let's like let's just reset and restart I feel like that Jenga towel was just like pulled and like it just toppled down we had to kind of like start from scratch and all the emotion was like just there

laid out onto the table and I just said to him we've never done this before we've never been in a relationship this long before we've never been married before we've never had children before and like we don't really know what to do so what is the next steps i just said let's strip it back down to being best friends let's show aurelia how much fun we had before having her because that's what like our relationship was the foundations of it was just fun and we lost all of that it became so serious and so boring and so like you know when you're just not talking after like oh not a relationship i wanted to be in

but yeah that's a lovely metaphor the jenga tower it's kind of the only way I can describe it yeah it really makes sense that I can't imagine that moment it's like it's even like I'm putting myself in your position as I just saying at that moment when he was like okay so let's just end it it must have been like but then I guess you that's what you wanted as well I really wanted it so confusing like so conflicting yeah it was bizarre because for honestly I never even thought I'd utter the words divorce. I'd never even thought of the word because I just never saw Matt and I going through that. Like we, it's funny because everyone was like, oh, we're having these big blowouts and big arguments and we genuinely weren't. We were just

not communicating. And it was so strange because we've never really had big arguments. We're not really like that. I never, I don't think I've ever raised my voice at him in the eight years we've been together just because that's not how I communicate. If I have a problem, I have a problem and sit down and we chat it through but there was never any like big argument that I was like right will it like this is it I need to leave it was just a build up of like pregnancy Aurelia and he told things like he told me that he couldn't enjoy the wedding as much as he thought he could which really I was like oh my god but we were like I was at we were 11 months in like Rayleigh was at the wedding she was 11 months she wasn't meant to be there it all just like

make sense for how we were both feeling and it's hard that it's like there's no it's hard for it to be anger if it's sadness and if it's mental health and you know you can't it's it's not the like typical like oh this waste of space husband of mine you know this kind of like trope that that you hear and that's what you think but the reality is so much sadder than that so much sad. That's what honestly, that's how I felt that I was like through sickness and in health and this was like mental sickness. He was so like almost like kidnapped by this depression and like anxiety and he was so sad. He wake up and like he said he had this feeling in his stomach that was just like a knot and like he couldn't really breathe every time we woke up and it was like

he woke up every morning and was like oh my God I'm still the person I was that I, the version of myself I was when I went to sleep last night and it's not dissipated and he said he woke up that every morning feeling like I can't do this I can't step up as a dad I can't be a responsible husband I can't feel the weight of this like new family dynamic and that was so sad to hear and I think because I was speaking about it to my family I was speaking about it to my friends and obviously they validate how you're feeling they were like well of course you're going to feel like that and then when you whittle it down and strip it back down

it was just mental health he was struggling so much and he was almost at that point where he said he was like I had a full mental breakdown and I couldn't he went away for three days so for my Christmas present

I bought him unplugged you know where you go away or you literally put your phone in a box a friend guy went to school we started that really amazing shut out

oh yeah really well so I booked him I think it was probably the best and the worst thing for him because he was so alone that he felt like horrendous but it gave him that like almost that reset to go right I really need to face this this was before our chat our big chat and it actually gave him that time to like just compute everything and to think what do I need here like I'm in such like the depths of depression what what what am I going to do to turn it

around and save Aurelia save my marriage with Chessie like and And I think as well, there are so many people that have come to me personally, like best friends or friends that I haven't seen for ages that have rung me honestly after that post and I followed up with another post kind of explaining it a little bit more. I think the first post provoked like five calls from people that I thought were in the happiest of marriages. Not like you said at the beginning, Alex, that like I know every marriage has its complexities and whatever.

But I genuinely thought, oh, they've all got kids and they're all very. And they all just said that post could have potentially saved our marriage because it's made me think, oh, there's a conversation to be had instead of just going, fuck this, I'm out and tapping out. And since then, it's been wild. And I'm still kind of supporting. And so is Matt, which is so nice, especially one couple that they've been together for 12 years. Matt's supporting the husband.

I'm supporting the wife. They're not really communicating between them yet. But I feel like we're kind of dealing with it in our separate parts. And how nice that Matt's able to go, look, we, got to the very, very, like, end to start from the beginning again. And now we can help other people kind of go through it. We called ourselves the marriage managers. I'm here to manage your marriage.

I love that. I'm so into football. He's like, I'm a football manager. I'm a marriage manager. But yeah, it's amazing how I've literally reversed the ick. I don't think anyone, no one that I've ever known has reversed the ick. Once you get the ick, you get the ick. I'm here to prove it's not irreversible.

I honestly, I got the full on ick from many things. knows that I did, especially when we were skiing and I was like, oh my God, why am I feeling like this? Because I dropped my glove. And everyone was looking for my glove apart from that. He just didn't care about my glove. And I was like, ugh, why do you not care about my glove? And that was like the very worst of my marriage, how funny that I literally got upset about a glove. And yeah, I've reversed the ick. It's wild. It's taken a while, but I still, I look at him now. I'm like, my God, I love you. It's so nice. I think that's really cool to hear, actually. because I thought the ick or just like I thought I don't know very cynical but I did think that falling out of love with someone that you've previously been in love with it wasn't reversible and I think there's like the idea that once it's done it's done to hear that it's not and actually you can get back to like just not being in like an okay place but like a really good place

has been because of something I'm bothered about. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Can I ask how you got into it? Because like, when did you stop being an air hostess and doing Insta? So the real story about, I left Virgin in, I don't know, I think it was like 2012. And I was, I always said, oh yeah, I left like, you know, I did my 10 years.

But basically they, I had no choice. They basically said you've got to leave. Because at the time, I had really bad anorexia slash bulimia. Sorry if this is triggering. him and I just couldn't fly so I was so under way and so like emotionally like ravaged they were like well you can work on the checking desks well I was like that so I can't do that yeah I was like an air hose desk because you have an identity don't you and I was so wrapped up in my identity being this air host desk perfect person that was so like perfect in that sense and then it just was all taken

away and it was like quite traumatising so then I didn't have a job for about a year and then I got a job at Rocket St George, which is like a kind of online interiors company, doing like customer service, and they used to do Instagram. And I never forget watching them, taking photographs and posting them. And I was thinking, this whole, like, warehouse is a right, like, mess. But that photo of that little corner of the room is just beautiful. So then I signed up to Instagram. And I mean, if anyone can be asked to scroll all the way back to my pictures, my, my earliest photos,

you know, like a little flat lay in the corner of the room. Yeah. Or like, you know, a little, oh, God. God, I cringe and I think about it. I want to see them now. But that's the kind of vibes I was trying to emulate. And that was like 2014, 14, 14, 14, wow, early doors. Yeah.

So that's how I got into Instagram. But, yeah, look at those photos now. They were shocking. I think I was taking it on, like, the worst phone as well. Phones are really improved, aren't they? Yeah. Well, we'll see. You'd edit them within Instagram, wouldn't you?

With all those awful filters. Valencia. Yeah. I used to have that one way it flips. So, because why not have two of me? Why not? I remember my brother looking at one of those of me, and I had like three of me, and he was like, feign much.

And I remember it was like the most cutting thing. I was like, uh, a good point. It is there. Like, how do you reconcile taking a selfie as not being a narcissistic moment? But it's like, people want to know what you look like. They want to connect with you. Yeah. But sometimes when I take selfies, I'm like, what the fuck am I doing?

I'm like, what am I doing? Yeah. Like, I'm 41, like, get a grip. But it is important in a way, especially more so now than ever, that kind of real moment, like chatting to camera, face, you know, face to camera. Yeah. Whereas my career started on Instagram where I didn't show my face. I used to chop my head off. So it was like here to here.

And actually, we'd love to get onto that, onto, like, showing your face and, like, connecting with your audience. But I'd love to ask. So the social media started, you know, as I'm guessing you were still struggling with, your eating disorders. Did you find that cathartic to put your body online then, or was it triggering or was it a bit of both? It was probably a good thing for me, I think. Was it? Because I was like almost checking myself. Okay.

And what happened for me was, I think a lot of my eating disorder was about addiction and I've got quite an addictive personality. Right. And this kind of being perfect. And so with Instagram, I found another way of being perfect. So my pictures and my grid layer had to be perfect. And I got obsessed with something that wasn't about food. Right. So it almost dragged me out of my, like, dark eating thoughts.

And then obviously, as an influencer, you'd get invited to, I don't know, a brunch or a lunch. And I was so ambitious for my Instagram that I would go and eat the food and be with the people. So that became more important. And then over time, I suppose, it just gets easier, doesn't it? Yeah. But it's probably taking me maybe like 10 years in recovery. Still kind of, like when John, again, this is a bit triggering, but like when we found out John, his cancer had come back,

the first thing I did was go and vomit. Because I was like, oh my God, like it was almost like a, it's almost like a kind of purge, if you like, of like emotions. It's like numbs things, doesn't it? Quite a numbing sensation. So I just think it'll always be there. Yeah. I just can manage it really well now.

So it's very rare. Yeah. Yeah, that's, I so get that. It's almost like a, it is like a purge thing. Yeah. Well, like just a, just sort of technique. It's like my coping mechanism. Right, it's a coping mechanism.

And it's a control as well. You know, you've just been told something you've got no control over. And it's like, I can't go and post it on Instagram stories. So it's like what I'm going to do, do you know what I'm going to do? Do you know what I'm like, it's actually, the more I talk about it, the more I'm like, it's quite upsetting even to listen to myself say it. Yeah. Because you just think as you get older, you think you can have your life all together.

But I remember being, I was 30 when Virgin kicked me out. So imagine hitting 30. That's when you meant to have all your shit together. And I'm like, I've got no job. I'm like really emotionally, like, not on the right level. I'm so sad. So actually, I think my 30s have been quite transformational for me. Yeah.

What I thought was really interesting that you mentioned is like you never used to show your face. No, never. never spoke never spoke because it was a visual app once it Instagram was all about pictures yeah but was it intentional

was it like you protecting like yourself from getting triggered I don't know like what was the reason for it when we went into lockdown I wasn't talking online and I really wasn't posted any video content it was literally just pictures of me

bouncing around in the street and then I think we went into lockdown I never forget you remember when you were allowed out and you can go to your supermarket or whatever. Yeah. And I took some pictures in, like, I lived in Horsham. So I took some pictures in like Horsham town. Literally, John pulled up at the side of the road.

I got out, bap, bap, posted them. And then the police turn up at my house the next day. Fuck off. And they're like, you've, we've been reported for, you know, flouting the COVID kind of rules and stuff. And I was like, oh dear, don't like the idea of this. So I said to John, what, what am I going to do? Because we're not going to be able to take photos like we used to. People are obviously getting irritated.

by it so it's not fair like it doesn't make sense and i can't just keep mirror selfie and it's the content's going to dry up and he was like well why don't you just chat so every morning i would get up and i would just do like i get ready with me it wasn't even to get ready with me it was just coming on chatting about crap what you're up to because we're all bored weren't we in lockdown yeah yeah and i think because the views were so high because people were bored i kind of re-invigorating my career in a way really so actually the in that sense it was the negativity that boosted the... Yeah.

I can't believe someone called the police on you. I think that was quite common, you know. I think a lot of people have that. Really? I think we had... In total, we had the police total about four times. You're joking. And one of them, it was about a picture

and I was like, actually, this picture is an old picture and I'll show you the original in 2016. Oh, my God. It's a repose, boys. That's what I mean. We're trying to trip you up, though. It's like, they're going out with their way to do that. Yeah.

But then, in a way, it was brilliant at that time because it really made me realize, wow, I've got people care. You know, when no one's slagging you off and saying anything bad about you, you're probably not doing enough. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm obsessed with that. You kind of need a little bit of a jiggle.

So it's quite important now as a business strategy. You know, there's so many influences in the past that have said stuff to me, people that we know, and they've always said, listen, don't be scared of a bit of bad press as long as you can explain it and ride the wave. But it is hard. It's not for the faint-hearted. Oh, my God, no. God, I don't know if you could handle that.

I don't know if I could. No, I don't think we could. I feel as though, like you, I mean, I've followed you for a long time now. And I do feel like you've never really had much negativity. In fact, quite the, you've always had quite a positive community. Yeah. I mean, way to jinx it, Lorna. Because you've been vulnerable, I think.

I think being vulnerable, it gathers a bit of a momentum of like that mum mentality. People want to give you a hug. They want to support you. They're going to comment on every post. out and I think you've got that. I guess the thing is it's also a very emotive what I talk about. So it does

it does like garner a lot of criticism which is fine and it's like a it's a lot of debate that needs to happen. We actually do have a lot of people disagree with us. Yeah.

You know we're not perhaps we're not having people ring the police. No but there's a lot but there is a lot of opinion and we do yeah we do end up fight like yeah it's not all positive because i guess what we're talking about is divisive yeah yeah it's just a bit different isn't it but it's for you is that a strategy like a deliberate decision to drive like you say debate i've never liked i don't i'm not a confrontational person

i'm always the the times where i've had a debate have always been a surprise i don't mind it when i when i'm like steadfast sure on something if i'm weighing in on an existing debate I'm like, fine. I know what I'm coming into. When I say something, which I don't believe to be controversial, and then people go on it, I'm like, oh, fuck.

Like, I'm not ready. And that's, like, that's where I find quite difficult. Like, I end up, I mean, I get a lot of shit, like, generally, because it's not my fault. Like, generally a lot of it's not my fault, and I just, I'm collateral. But, like, when it's like on my own content, stuff being, like, if I'm, like, wrong,

but it's taken me a really long time on quite a lot of therapy, which we've had, we've done a lot on the podcast, that's like, it's okay to be disingen, with people and that's something on the internet that we're really bad. So bad. Yeah, people are really bad at disagreeing with you because then they make it impersonal and then they hate you and then they need to ruin you. And it's like, actually, honey, like someone said a comment on my Instagram video. It's like, I've never disagreed with you before but this video and I was like, that's okay.

That's okay, yeah. That's okay, yeah. But we're not very good at that. So I think that's quite interesting. Is that a British thing? I don't know. It's, we really, we like women to be one thing and like we like to be able to package them and understand them. understand them. And if they misbehave or go out their box, we don't know what to do with them.

So the answer is just to just throw them away. For those who don't know, I got engaged. But the plan was we were going to elope this summer. So we were going to have a very short engagement. And we had kind of already planned, in a very unconventional way, kind of already planned the wedding before we got engaged. So that was what I saw this year looking like I'd been trying for a baby for six months so I definitely foresaw that this year and I got engaged on the Saturday found out he'd been cheating on me on the Sunday and ended it at 4 a.m the next morning and it was one of those moments in life where it's like before and after like I was like nothing will ever be the same and like not just in our relationship

but like who I am as a person and I've never had a moment in my life where like your whole future just shatters overnight and like any I'm a planner like I know where my life is going and even in my career like I've always been like five year goal 10 year goal and I literally was like you have no answers right now stop trying to look for answers we live hour by hour and that is literally what I did from April 13th until to be honest until now I'm still living hour by hour. I'm like, just get through the next day. Oh, bloody hell. A fucking whirlwind. Oh, my God, you poor thing. That is like, that is literally the definition of like life turned upside down overnight, isn't

it? Well, some more context around it is the fact that that engagement photo was actually the first time I'd shared my partner, which is why it was revealed in, on my engagement photo, because I, I'd had a partner for three years, but I'd never shared him because I had, I enough friends in this industry. I've seen people go through public breakups. I've never personally wanted to go through one. And silly me thinking that an engagement meant something or a ring meant something at some certainty of like, great, okay, this person's going to be in my life. And so in posting the photo, it was also showing his face for the first time, which is how the woman who DM'd me, who was a follower of mine, had literally DM'd me back in 2021 before I'd even

met him thanking me for his for my books actually thanking me because she was so insecure around dating and I gave her the confidence to date which was the irony but it's also why like a lot of people are like you know the stereotype of the hey girlie dm like why would you believe them and I was like because it wasn't it was someone I had replied to and said thank you so much really appreciate your support and she was like I tell all my friends about you and this was like months before I met him and then it was the fact I shared the photo he she recognized him from the and sent me a message and was like, hey, and it was about an hour after I'd posted it. Oh, my God.

And, yeah, I've been through some shit. Like, I've had 15 surgeries. I've had, I've lived through the tsunami in Pouquet, like, in 2004. Like, I have been through some shit, and I have never had experience in my life where, like, I didn't eat for, like, I think it was a week. Like, I was having, like, nibbles and people were forcing me to eat things. But, like, the first night, I think I slept for one hour. pretty much like my sleep my eating just to say you i was in shock was not really like

it doesn't sum it up like it's just there were days i just stared out the window and just my brain was trying to just exist were you with him when you received that dietic so i we were actually on the phone to his brother because we're told my so we're told everyone we knew the day before when the day we got engaged but that morning we told my family because my family are in Hong Kong. And so they were all asleep by the time we'd got engaged. And then we spoke to his brother because his brother was in a pub when we had called him. So we were having a proper conversation. And the message simply was like, hey, is your fiance and his name? I'd had that message before. I'd actually had that message from a family

friend. So I actually thought it was a colleague. Like, oh, one of his colleagues happens to follow me and it's like, just put the dots together. Yeah. Like I trusted him so much. There was no part of me that thought it was weird, even to the point where he went to the bathroom, straight after, came back, I was like, I was just sick. And I went, oh, no, did you eat something? And then we carried on watching Grey's Anatomy. I literally didn't think twice about it. Like, I mean, you guys get tons of DMs. Like, you see a DM, you see it for a moment. And then we were two minutes into watching Grey's Anatomy. I paused it. It was like, oh, by the way, who is that person? There was a high chance I would have forgotten about it. Like, oh, she didn't say in

the DM. She didn't say it. She just said, this is this and his name. God, there's so many sliding doors there because you could have not opened the message also what are the chances that of all the dms i've got i actually had replied to her four years ago but also can you imagine my dms on the day i had announced my engagement but also shown the number of dms the chance i saw that and the fact that it came into the like primary section where my family and friends there was a real feeling of i'm being protected and like i have i've always been a little bit spiritual but like there was something like I was I it's the worst thing to find out the day after you get engaged that he's cheating on you but it's what's worse it's finding out the day after you get married and

I was almost not going to share that photo I was going to share when we got married because we were only going to we were going to do it this summer anyway we're going to lope and it was going to be a quick thing and because I didn't want to because I'm writing a friendship book I'm writing chapters about bridesmaids and all of that stuff and it was just all in my head and I was like I don't want to do this to my friendships. And so I was like, I was writing this book and I was like, I just, I can't, whenever we talked about weddings, I was like, I don't want to go through the picking of maid of honor, like dissect ranking my friendships, all of that started feeling really like unhealthy to me. So we had, we were, we basically had decided we were, we were eloping

that summer. So I was actually just going to wait for the wedding photo. I was just, I was just so glad I found. I just, I couldn't thank her more. Like, it was such a brave thing for her. Like, I'm going to get emotional, but like, it's such a brave thing for her to do to message me. Like, as she, like, really just, like, save to me. Like, but I, I don't even know if I would have had the bravery to message someone that, because it could have flipped on her. Like, I am fully aware it could have flipped on her and I could have been, like, out of, like, shared the screenshot. Like, you were. want to ruin my engagement. Obviously, like, you know me, like, I'm not that kind of person,

but she doesn't know me. Like, she didn't know, she followed me, but she didn't know, like, that I wouldn't react that way. But yeah, an amazing woman who also, like, stayed on the phone with me for an hour and told me, like, all the information, which at that point was so important because, like, I just didn't believe a word he said at that point. So I was like, I need to hear, like, I really, like, need to hear it from you, like, what's happened. And it must be a shock for her, too, I suppose. Yeah. And also she, like, whenever, because we spoke a few times and she was like, honestly, you've just, all you've done is help my love life. And I feel awful for ruining yours.

And I was like, you didn't ruin mine. You saved me. No, she, she, in a weird way, like blessing in disguise, gave you a kind of gift and a, yeah, very disguised kind of way. Yeah. No, but genuinely. And also, it's why if you're ever in that position, I'm always like, just tell them, even if they react badly, just tell, like, give them the option to know. because I was one of the ones who did want to know. Did he come clean when you said to him,

who's this, let's just message me? Initially, no. Or was it her that had to tell you? It took about an hour, two hours. So she initially messaged that and then an hour later she sent screenshots. But he had already been acting weird to the, like, that I was like, what's happening here? Like, and I mean, I like to think I'm an emotionally intelligent woman.

Like, I was like, why are you acting so weird? and I yeah it was about an hour of like that and then she had sent this the the dating profile and he then admitted to another one and then later that day admitted to the third one so fuck dude you must have known this was going to happen when you posted photo of his face no it sounds really silly because the story has blown up so much now but I did not live a public life a public profile, but I have never had paparazzi outside my house. I've taken him to public events. I took him to the James Bond premiere, like on our fifth day. I took him to like, I've taken him to so many public events. He came with me to the Brits. There was one time a paparazzi did take a photo

of us and I asked him to delete it and he did because that photo was not going to sell for anything. No one gives a shit who I am, frankly. It was only after this. They cared who he was and they cared who I was, but no one, we didn't live a public life. So I think, yes, it's a number on a screen of how many followers I have on Instagram or TikTok, but like, unless you're walking through the street and being stopped regularly, I don't think it's something in the forefront of your mind unless that's your lived experience. And the other two women he cheated on me with were in other countries, like, I don't know, potentially doesn't even speak English. Like, whereas this was one person who was in the UK. So she literally was the one person.

who like I mean the odds of following me are higher considering majority of my following are UK 20 to 30s so in my head it actually was only her who could have told me also there there was nothing within the relationship that would have been a clue I mean I'm not the kind of person to go on his phone but there was nothing on his phone anyway because he deleted it all there are many reasons why people cheat sometimes it's the relationship but sometimes it's themselves and their issues and then also on the other side some people want to be found out and some people don't want to be found out he was the kind of person who didn't want to be found out like it's not the fact he wanted out of the relationship obviously he wouldn't have proposed if he wanted out of the

relationship you know how sometimes people cheat almost as like the coward's way to like then be the way that you end it I mean I do think it was a version of self-destruction but I don't think he actually wanted out of the relationship and I don't think our relationship was the issue I think he was dealing with demons for lack of a better word and he didn't deal with it in a very good way. But where I fall down on it is like when it comes to infidelity is like the decision you make of whether to say or not is not about whether you love them because that's no question. I probably still love him probably always will and I have no doubt he loves me. But it's whether he's going to change and I just knew he wouldn't. and I just knew he wouldn't because it was three people.

He was never going to tell me. Like, I actually think he would have done it again, probably on his next business trip, which was literally the next day. And I think that's the deciding factor of whether you stay rather than how much you love someone. Because if it's how much you love someone 90% of the time, you will stay because the love has to exist.

It was a three-year relationship. And I think a lot of my healing and a lot of my peace, even from the beginning, I think people wanted me to be really angry and I'm just not like because he gave me more than he took away. And I know that's a like narrative that doesn't want a lot of space in the media because people kind of want me to hate him. But I think people get worried when I say things like that because they're like, don't go back to him. And I'm like, no, I can say I love him. I can say I do think for whatever I knew of the relationship, whether it was like what he started cheating in the last like six months,

whether the first two years were real, like the whole three years were real, whatever it was. I don't see the purpose in that. Like, trying to go through this process is really trying to not demonise him, but also not put him on a pedestal and, like, ignore the truth of it. It's actually trying to keep the good and the bad and not, he's not this evil man. Like, he was a guy who was doing his best, who made a really big mistake that has really big consequences. But I forgave him pretty instantly. I just can't stay.

Here are some more of our favourite interview moments of the year. Crystal Hefner's journey of surviving the Playboy Mansion, the brilliant crisis and hostage negotiator Nikki Perfect, Jill Tavner, the inspiring Justop oil protester, and Farah Benis, who joined us to discuss one of the year's fiercest debates, Man versus Bear. Here's Crystal.

But I would love to hear, in your words, the kind of beginning of your story, how you ended up at Playboy. And you were 21 when, I mean, that is so young. How did that happen? Because my 21 and your 21 were very different, 21. When I was 21, I felt like I was so grown up. But now I'm 37 and I look back. I'm like, oh, it's such a baby. Yeah.

I grew up, well, first in England. Yeah. I lived here until I was about eight. I moved to America with my parents, lost my accent, sadly. And then I went to school in San Diego, which is about two hours south of Los Angeles. Yeah. And my dad passed away when I was 12. That was very hard.

And after that, I felt like not a real family anymore, just like the leftover scraps of one. And that was very sad. And I think then I started to just make myself small to fit in. And my mom and I had no money. And it was hard. It was a hard childhood. And I remember as I went into my teenage years, seeing celebrities and they would be like Pam Anderson, Jenny McCarthy, Carmen Electra. I'm like, wow, these women are powerful and beautiful.

And I want to be just like them. So I started bleaching my hair and trying to achieve that look and got some attention, started doing some modeling things. and met a girl modeling and she asked me if I wanted to submit a photo to go to a party at the Playboy Mansion. Yeah. And that's how it started. I submitted a photo. I was really struck in the book actually when you talk about submitting that photo and how you had like such a case of imposter syndrome and didn't feel that you would get like that you innocently picked your flaws apart in that image as soon as you'd sent it. And then, And I kind of, you kind of tell how that insecurity, I guess.

I was so insecure. Which is such a contradiction, I suppose, to how you, how you must have presented yourself. Because obviously, you are so beautiful and you were accepted immediately when they saw your image. But it seems such a contradiction that you felt in yourself that you weren't good enough and that you wouldn't be accepted. Yeah, I was very insecure. When I went up to the mansion, it was a case of imposter syndrome. Like, me? Yeah.

How did I slip through? the cracks. And some of the most beautiful women I have ever met are the most insecure people I've ever met. Yeah. And arriving at the mansion, can you tell us, because like, it's such a cultural phenomenon in the head of so many people. We can picture it. And like, I'm of an age where Playboy was everywhere throughout my teen years. And I was kind of shocked when I was reading and it got worse, actually my kind of the um it all kind of come crumbling down the facade of and the glamour and whatever and throughout your story but initially when you say you were waiting in a garage with all these women to go up it's kind of not what you imagine no you couldn't just rock straight up to

the playboy mansion you had to go to a parking garage and you parked there and you wait for these shuttle shuttle buses or shuttle it's so formulaic when you say it like that isn't it yeah yeah just like busing in the girls it's it's it's pretty crazy and yes i'm in my little frenchmaid outfit just you know all the girls they're all beautiful and we're all just cold and barely dressed waiting for the shuttle at one point they said oh go home like the shuttles are all full and the party's full like where do i yeah i'd have to drive two hours back home so i'm like i'm just waiting here to see and sure enough and a shuttle comes up and we get on and wow go to the playway mansion oh my god and when you arrive half comes down Hugh Hefner comes down

And you are selected by him to join him in his cabana. What was that like at 21? That must have been, if you were feeling out of your depth in the parking garage, how did you feel? I know. When I got into the party, it was incredible. And I was just walking around with my friend. And we saw this wave of people come down. And my friends said, oh, it must be Hugh Hefner.

So we went over to where they were going. And he went into the cabana. And it's all roped off. And so my friend like pulled me to where the rope is and we just stood there. My friend's just like waving, waving. He looks over at her and then his gaze like falls on me. And I did. I look back and like, oh my gosh.

Yeah. And he just like, come here and whatever half wants, half gets. So his security came over and, you know, unclipped the rope and shuffled me in to sit next to half. And I feel like my soul left my body at that point. I'm like, oh, my gosh. You know, because you're supposed to be on the outside and they're on the inside. And now you're on the inside. And so I sat next to him and the first thing, I'm like, oh, what do I say?

Yeah. And so he asked me where I lived. I said, I came from San Diego and he asked me what I did. And I remember thinking like, oh, my gosh, I'm not working. Like, I'm in school. But thinking back, I probably likes that because I'm younger. So I said I was studying psychology at San Diego. Diego State and he said he studied psychology at University of Illinois and it kind of went like

that and he was magnetic and charming and yeah I just I can't imagine because actually you tell in your story this kind of feeling of displacement that you had throughout your teens and kind of feeling that you weren't I guess good enough yeah um and it's so interesting from mentioning before like the cultural thing looking at Playboy you do see it as like these are the perfect women and it was like I guess you were being given that seal of approval like I you're perfect yeah yeah and I guess you have this feeling of feeling like you belong like Huff puts some like worthiness onto me yeah so yeah I mean he did dictate kind of the standard of beauty for a very very long time in one way or another with the magazine and with the brand so yeah I think about that a lot because he had a type

yeah so I'm like did he push that onto the culture like did he hurt things or help things. Yeah, I've been really thinking about it since reading your book and about kind of the, I mean, the society that held this situation in such high regard is actually nuts, thinking about the age gap. And like, he was given legend status. Yeah, the media just loved him and supported him and put him on such like a big pedestal. And I think back, I'm like, why?

Why didn't they question this? Why didn't they see if the girls were happier if it was all, you know, I was a low-hanging fruit. They were just mean to me and I was an easy target. Yeah, I really want to talk to you about the media treatment because I was really disappointed to hear in the book, like your experience. And I'm obviously not surprised because it was a horrific time. But I think what I was really interested about as well is that when you say that you went and sat the good banner for the first time, And it's all of this no questioning thing, right? He had his girlfriend's at the time with twins.

Yes. And they were teenage twins. Yeah, they had just turned 19. Wow. And he was 81. Wow. Yeah. It's so sad.

They're not doing well now. They just got out of rehab. That's disappointing. And they're having a hard time. Yeah. So they were very, very young. I feel sorry for them. Yeah.

Yeah. So the way that it worked was that he would have. numerous girlfriends at one time. So you arrived that evening as a guest and it would work right that you would have guests to the bedroom, but there would be girlfriends as well. And at the time you was just a guest first, right? And the twins were a girlfriend. How did you go from being guest to girlfriend? He invited me to stay for the weekend after the party. And after the weekend, I went back to San Diego. And before I could think of how my life would continue after that experience, he called and left me a voice message asking if I wanted to move in. Wow. So I'm sure,

like I'm going to do this. Like school will always be there. And I moved into the mansion to bedroom five. Wow. So it's like incredibly flattering as well as being, you know, with hindsight, it's like, this is mad. You're going to go and live with a man who is 81. Yeah. But it's so, it's at that time, like, he was so iconic. And I feel when I, when I had heard of Half in Playboy, like he'd always been this, like, older figure, I guess. Yeah. I thought he was immortal.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that was, because in our lifetime, I guess he was always older. So we never, you know, I guess we never saw him in his heyday in terms of age-wise. Yeah. But he kind of lived like he was in his heyday forever, right? Like, I mean, yeah. It's very strange.

It's mad. So you moved into bedroom five. How does that work? It's very strange. It's just such a bubble and it's Heff's world. And so he's bedroom one. And as you go down the hall, there's two, three, four. And then round the corner to the offices, there's like five and six.

Okay. And then offices at the end. And like, okay, I'm down here at this other end of the house. And what do I do to like be closer? Yeah. Because I feel like if I'm at the end, maybe I could be kicked out. easily or something. Yeah, yeah, last in first down. So good. So I did think, what do I have to do? And I just started getting more into what hath liked. Like, oh, he wants me to, like, be with him

with all these old movies playing. And so I just ended up liking all the things he liked, mirroring his self-importance back at him. Yeah. And started losing myself, I guess. Yeah. And I think, and there was a quote in the book that really struck with me about, was about how your kind of like view of womanhood had very much been submission. Yeah, you say being a woman meant submitting, keeping myself small. And I feel like that's such a tragic sentence in the sense that Playboy felt like it was such female empowerment and it felt like such sexual liberation to an extent in this kind of like it looked so happy and like these women were so confident. Yes. But you were feeling at that time so like you were submitting and it kind of feels obvious now.

guess at the time it wasn't like that at all. Yeah. The disparity between how you felt and how you must have been perceived is just crazy. Yeah, yeah. You definitely have to submit. And I was emotionally abused, financially abused, financially abused, controlled, physically controlled. And then the media. Yeah.

The media just praised him and loved him and always talked about him. And people would pay him. millions to do random things and he was just seen as an American icon yeah like a global icon icon yeah and so I'm like okay there must be something wrong with me yeah if I'm not like that into it or if I'm unhappy like there must be something wrong with me so I need to just try and enjoy this I tried yeah oh my god and it like because actually what you're describing what what happened it's not glamorous at all in And from that first night, you were invited to his bedroom.

And there were other girls there. And it kind of, and this would happen, would it happen every night? There'd be this many women expected to have sex with him? It wasn't every night, maybe like once a week by the time I was there. I don't know if it was different for other people. Yeah. But I do, yeah. I mean, it was very, it's like the same thing every time.

Yeah. And it was, yeah, I mean, like, he liked what he liked, right? you had to wear the same clothes every time. Yeah, the same clothes, the same, you know, music's playing, the same kind of porn he puts on the TV. And I, after a while, I'm like, this man, like, really has no idea how to please a woman. Which feels like the biggest irony. Yeah, it's like the biggest con of all time.

Yeah, like Mr. scatming people. And you say at one point, and I'm sorry if you don't want to talk about it, but that he would use, he'd insist on using baby oil. Yeah, girls, right. And it would cause you all to get infections. Yeah, and that was giving people ovarian cancer eventually if we found out that Johnson and Johnson's specifics. Wow. Oh, my God.

Yeah, it's awful. Yeah, and it's like, but there was just no prioritizing, like, female pleasure of any of a god. But it doesn't even sound that he enjoyed it that much by the end. It really, yeah, I did think that, like, pretty often, like, is he even enjoying this? I have no idea. Or is he just going through some weird motion? Like, did this used to be enjoyable for him at some point? Yeah.

I have no idea. But thinking back, now that we have terms that we didn't have then or I didn't have, like I didn't really know what a narcissist was. Yeah. And now I do. And now it's talked about so much. So I thought, okay, that makes sense. Like, he didn't care how we felt.

He didn't care if we were happy. As long as he just gets what he wants, he, because he was so narcissistic, he just assumed, oh, that's what everyone else wants to. Yeah. And it's twisted. and pretty terrible. I guess we'd be remiss to not mention the fact that by the end you were caring for Hugh Hefner. You were his carer.

And I wonder, did you, by the end, did you love him? Was there a, I don't know. I don't think I did. I think it was hard for me to love him fully because I had so much resentment toward him. But in a way, I still wanted to protect him. He wanted to be this person that's seen as larger than life. And I tried to make sure that he was that person until he died. Yeah.

I do think of The Wizard of Oz. Actually, the movie I put on when he, you know, he kind of like lost consciousness. I couldn't tell if he was. And I put that movie on because it's colorful. At least if he can watch it, he can see it. It's very colorful. But thinking back, I'm like he was the wizard. He was the wizard.

He was the Wizard of Oz. he was the man behind the curtain that wanted everyone to think something much grander than what he really was. Well, let's begin with what you did. You're retired now, but you were a crisis and hostage negotiator. Is that right? That's right. That's such a tough job.

I mean, M and I were talking to you beforehand. There is absolutely no way I could do that. We'd be so bad. So bad. I'd be bribing. I'd be like, come on, don't do it. Don't do it. I'll give you jelly beans. I'll give you whatever.

I think what struck me is the sheer amount of patience that you need. I couldn't cope with that. It's just, it's so much patience. And you have to, you have to, you must have to put your frustration to one side, along with everything else, like your ego, your opinions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Judgments.

Yeah. There must have been situations. And I always think this for. police officers in general where you as a human you do all they're breaking the law so you do judge them how do you not how do you put that to one side yeah so there is for that time that you're with that person it has to not be about you it has to be all about them and what's happening so your job is to save the life of the other person and that kind of really helps because you know you're in sort of a life or death situation in the majority of these cases.

So it's not about not judging because we all know that we do judge. It's about recognising that you are judging. And when you are judging to go, hang on a sec, what's making me judge that? Okay, that's about me. That's about my values and beliefs. That's not about this incident here and it's not about the other person. So you park it. You're just able to park it for that period of time.

Yeah. Yeah. You'd need a lot of, I mean, empathy, I imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, lots of empathy, lots of patience, lots of resilience. You know, sometimes a negotiation goes on for hours on end. Sometimes the person that you're talking to doesn't like you particularly,

not because of who you are because they have no idea who you are, but because of what you do and their association with that. So you have to overcome quite a lot of barriers. You talk about one of your first negotiations being eight hours. Yeah. And the guy said two things. Yeah, he did, yeah. How do you do that?

What did you do? I'd lose my mind. Yeah, and it's interesting because I bet you wouldn't. I bet if I, like, create a course and put you under sort of the same similar circumstances, you wouldn't lose your mind. You might struggle to think of something to say, but there's a team around you. What were the circumstances of that? So it was a young lad who had, so it was my first ever negotiation.

So it was a young lad who'd been released from prison for grievous bodily harm. And he went around to see his ex-partner. They'd had a child that he'd never seen. He'd never seen the child before. they'd had some sort of emotional heated conversation she alleged that he had assaulted her and he'd taken the child without her consent and driven off and there was a car chase

you know the old stingers that they throw across the road if you've watched any of the police programs they'd done that and he was now surrounded by police he was holding the child to child was I really remember and like I know time distorts your memories but I remember how massive his hands seem to be and how small the child seemed to be I really remember that

and it was bucketing with rain the whole time So, and it was a really interesting negotiation for me because I learned so much from it. So when I got that call, this is what went through my head. I was like, heroin negotiator arrives on scene as a conversation, listens to the young man. He listens to her. He hands her the child. He shakes her by the hand. He's led off.

When you read the book, you know, it was eight hours and he literally said two sentences. One was you don't understand and the other I can't repeat. And I walked away from that thinking and we ended up getting a child back but he was tasered and there was a fight and he ended up going back to prison. And I walked away from that thinking, well, that's not what I was expecting. I didn't want it to end like that. You know, I'd got these skills. I'd been on this amazing course.

I've been taught by these amazing, really knowledgeable people. What on earth happened? And it took me quite some time and I watched other negotiators and I did lots of research. around psychology and human behavior. And I suddenly realized that whole conversation was about me. It was about what I wanted to happen. And I'm guessing, though I've never spoken to him, but I'm guessing, if I look at the world from his perspective,

he had just been released from prison. He's never seen his child before, had an argument, was now surrounded by police officers. He didn't see some heroin negotiator walking towards him. He saw a white middle-aged, middle-class woman and probably thought, well, how are you going to help me? Or what have we got in common? Or you're going to take my child away from me,

you're going to send me back to a place I don't want to go. So, yeah, so it taught me a big lesson that negotiation. What would you have done differently? Now. Yeah. So I think now I'd have probably opened up the conversation just like that, looking at the world from his perspective, and said something along the lines of,

I'm guessing this is not how you planned your day to go. You know, you're probably excited about seeing your daughter. You clearly love your daughter. You've had some sort of argument. and now here is a white middle-aged middle-class woman coming to speak to you and you're probably looking at me thinking, well, how are you going to help? And what on earth have we got in common? I might be completely wrong, but I'm thinking if I was sat in your chair,

that's what I'd be thinking. So start to show them that I'm looking at the world from their perspective. And is that something that you, that a skill was something that you acquired and you took that into future negotiations? Yeah. And that would be how you'd kind of get on somebody's. I'd say that must be very useful in your real life as well. Absolutely. I'll do it now.

So even now am I. So I've got, so apart from, I do consulting and I've written the book, but I've also got a coffee shop, a community hub and a garage. And when I left policing and I was thinking, well, who am I now? And what am I going to do? And I randomly ended up buying my local village garage and converting the car showroom into this community social enterprise coffee shop and a community gym.

Whoever hasn't made your life into a film is really stupid. I know. That's so cool. And I was using all the same skills for my customers, you know, and it's like there's three huge lessons I learned about being a negotiator. One is that we all have a story. So as we sit here now, all of us in this room have a story, stuff that we don't share because we might not know the person enough. You bump into people in the street, don't you have those encounters? Sometimes that other person seems really angry or cross and you're like, whoa, hang on, what's the matter with you? But we never know what their story is.

the second one is we all have a crisis at some stage in our lives sadly we will all experience loss which is a very unfortunate and sad thing and the third one is that loneliness is one of the biggest killers in the UK if not the world and you can be lonely without being on your own if you see what I mean and when I left policing and I was like what am I going to do I'm so I know that my highest value is to be in service I know that there's nothing I can change about that. It makes me happy. So selfishly, it makes me happy and I enjoy doing it. And I was like, well, my God, I've got these skills. How's this all going to work? And then suddenly I was talking to my customers and I was talking to some of the older people in the village who were now

coming to use the coffee shop and starting, they were having conversations with other people. And so they were starting to make friends. And I was like, this power of communication is amazing. You don't have to be in a life or death situation. You can make a difference every single in somebody's life if we're just more presence in the way that we communicate of each other. Touching on the loneliness thing

you just talked about there, on balance, this is probably a really difficult question, but of all the crises that you've attended and all the situations that you've negotiated, do you feel like loneliness, do you feel like the people that you're negotiating with

are for the most part sad, desperate people Or do you feel like, and this is really hard to categorise them. But I think when we think of criminals in this situation, you'd think of them as being angry and bad. But is your experience actually that a lot of people were more desperate and sad rather than angry and bad if you had to categorise them? Interesting question.

I would say, one of my friends said this to me, she said, Nick, you're too soft to be a police officer. I would say, because I like to see the best in people. and I like to give lots of chances to people because I think that we all mess up at some stage in our life and it's good if somebody can help you get through that stage I think the majority of people that I dealt with some were in crisis because they didn't know whether they want to live or die

some were in crisis because they had done something which they knew would have a consequence and that consequence is going to be life-changing and some were families of people that had been kidnapped or were caught up in a terrorist instance. So all of them were in crisis in a different way. So there was a lot, yeah, there's a lot of anger. When you're not in control, if you think of a time when you haven't been in control of a situation,

that is horrible and you're reliant on other people. And when we lose control, we don't make really good decisions. we make really emotionally driven decisions and so we lead with our emotional brain rather than our logical brain so there are some really bad people in the world really bad but there are a lot of people that make a mistake

and it affects the rest of their life for a long period of time I'm struck by the emotion that you have to bring and the empathy that you have to have I think that would probably be bad at is like having people but a bad people Well, I'm wondering if you had to, if you had to desensitize yourself to feeling sympathy for these people, because I guess you have to feel empathy, but sympathy is quite different and a bit more of a selfish emotion, I guess, and empathy.

Did you have to desensitize yourself to that and to the people that you felt sorry for? Because I think that would be really, that would be really hard. So most people in crosses don't want you to feel sorry for them. They don't. No, it's not, if you fit, so imagine if you're talking to somebody who is in a, in a discussion in their own mind is, am I going to live or die today? So they're quite low and they're depressed. If I come along and I'm very sympathetic to that, then I keep them here.

I keep them in this low depressed state and we don't make any progress. one of my mentors he gave it a great description of it he said when you're talking to somebody put your shoe at your foot in one of their shoes and keep the other foot in your shoe and walk alongside them and see what the world looks like don't change them because our job is you can't change anybody they've probably all been in relationships where we've gone that I'm going to change you because I don't like this little bit about you so I'm going to change you that's not our job and we can't you can't change people but what you can do is you can influence them you can influence them and get them to hopefully see a different path on that day

so that they can either get the help that they need or you can help them get the person that's been kidnapped back. Is that the hardest negotiation? I imagine that that would be the hardest negotiation when you're dealing with somebody who's choosing whether or not they want to live or die. Is that the hard? Would they be the toughest jobs you had to do?

So that's an interesting, I'll give you two answers to that. Yes and no. Hardest negotiation I've ever had. My 16-year-old daughter and my partner because I'm emotionally involved. Yeah. So when I'm not emotionally involved, it's much easier to see the world from a logical perspective. Yeah.

But yes, when somebody is literally standing on the edge of a building making that decision, it is hard. And how do you not get emotional? You can't, you can't really get emotional in front. No, that's a lie, actually. You can cry. You see, I have cried with other people. You have? Yeah, I've hugged other people.

I've shared that moment in time and it's a really difficult description to give because it's like nothing else in the world you're in a moment with somebody and that moment is whether they've got a loved one that's kidnapped or you're talking to them on the edge of the building or they're caught up in something

that moment of time for that other person is going to be the biggest moment in that person's life and you have the privilege I honestly felt it was a privilege to be able to share that moment with somebody and yeah I've cried with other people I remember going to give a deaf message to somebody not even as a negotiator just as a police officer

that his son had been killed in a motorbike accident you know it's difficult but it's not about you it has to be about them so you have to be strong for the other person so there has to be an appropriate place to do it but I've hugged people and held people's hands and you know all those human connection things those important things

what's your criminal record for what's its official title willful obstruction of the highway I was with a group of 25 mums and grandmas in November and we walked we set off from Trafalgar Square on a slow march and we were on the road for maybe 17 or 18 minutes before the police arrested us. Right. You know, we were hoping to get to Downing Street, so which is only not 0.4 of a mile. Oh my God, sorry, 17 or 18 minutes. Yeah.

I thought you were going to say you were like on the end 25 for 17 or 18 hours. No, no. And we didn't sit. We were moving. And we always, we have a blue light policy. So if there's any blue light, you know, ambulance things, we get off. And actually on the videos you can hear us saying blue light policy when we thought a fire engine was coming, we all got off the road.

We let cyclists through. We try when we can let a bus to let buses through because we know that generally they're the people who are at least who are on those buses are probably most important they get to work not to get sacked and things rather than the more wealthy. It was peaceful. We had banner. We didn't carry the, we didn't want to be stereotype, like just stop oil can be. So we did have the orange banners for safety at the bag. But other than that, we each of us carried a placard saying why we were there as a mother or as a grandmother. As a result of which we found ourselves in court. But half, half were acquitted and half of us were convicted. And it's just the

the luck of the drawer, who you get. Weird that it's luck, isn't it? Yeah. The same crime is like, oh yeah, I just got lucky. Yeah, standing next to each other, arrested together. It's like, eerie, me, me. You're fine, you're not. It's not part of this bizarre.

It's surreal. It's very, very strange for a goody-goody to suddenly be in a position where you feel the weight of the state upon you. And certainly when you're sitting in a police cell overnight, that's when you really feel it. And you feel a bit silly because you think the people who've been in here before me have been really desperate to an extent I've chosen to be here.

So that's quite humbling. They keep you overnight, though, as well. I mean, okay, we do have to do our due diligence in terms of interviews and challenge you from the perspective of the people who are in the cars who are being held up. Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. It's a stupid question because it's a stupid question because it's a hard one to answer. On your, you know, on balance, you know, what you're doing you deem worth it. But how do you sort of level it in terms of the sort of public,

the sort of the inconvenience you're causing to the public? Yeah, it's really uncomfortable. and when we're about to step onto the road when we wait for a pedestrian crossing to go red and a car gets through you think oh lucky you you know because we're going to be holding the rest up and it's really uncomfortable and horrible and in the face of the disruption we face

if nothing's done it's minimal as you said 13 or 14 minutes and we were moving we did pass junctions where cars could escape from the road and go other ways no one does this without really thinking through is this okay And of course, we're all, I think most of us are drivers. So it's not against the motorists, which is a quite difficult message to get across.

But we have to do something. And it shouldn't be necessary, I suppose, is the best answer. If our politicians were addressing this properly and it was there in the dominant narrative that we have to take action to deal with the climate, you wouldn't get a group of mums and grandmas stepping into the road. And I know other people do it too, but we did it in that capacity. You wouldn't get them doing that. and causing disruption because what we're at the core of all of us is the desire to reduce future disruption for everybody and to make life more livable and to you know give people more power

over their own futures so it does appear contradictory and it isn't easy but we've all like I said you know 100,000 people gathered in London without causing disruption it doesn't get on the news right so I would hate to be in that traffic I admit it and yeah but there's another bit of me thinks you know generally the traffic moves. So I don't think there was anyone in a lot of those queues who's held up for the full duration of the thing. And actually, how often do you set off in London not expect to be held up a little bit?

But that's not a fair comment because I can imagine someone who was held up still being angry but quite often I think the anger has reduced and I think people are more like, yeah, I get this. I think it's more the most, like in London I imagine if you get stuck in track. I mean, even sometimes you're driving at walking pace anyway. So I actually don't really deem what you did

to be a huge inconvenience as someone who drives literally everywhere in London. So, I know it's not good for the environment But I'm very sick And I don't want to be sick on myself on the train It's temporary for the pregnancy If I get stuck behind it If I get stuck behind you

Traval of course So be it That's what I'm no less than I deserve But I do think when it comes to London traffic Specifically I mean you can divot round You can find another route You can turn round Like it's not that bigger thing

When people are blocking the motorways Is it this sort of similar premise In terms of countering it Is it? Yeah I think again when people say do the means justify the end and if the end is getting our government to act

and to do all they can to limit the direction we're in to limit climate collapse and to direct our society in the right way and the means is a relatively short hold upon a motorway then that's probably how I can justify it I think about means justifying ends but

again none of us want to do it if there were to be a better way that worked that we haven't all tried anyway, then we wouldn't be doing it. It's so bad, but I just hear the stories. I can just hear the counter things. I've obviously read and picked up. Same here.

I'm going to see. I missed my father's funeral. I read one, a man who was, who had an aggressive form of cancer and he was waiting, he was driving to his appointment and then missed it and he then couldn't get an appointment for two months. Which actually, that's a broken NHS that bless him like he could. It was two months because he missed one appointment. It is awful.

It's awful. And what's also awful is people having houses washed away, being washed away by rivers, you know, in the States, in Europe, in Japan, in poorer countries. What's awful is the people, their land becoming uninhabitable in areas of Africa and Asia already. And that's going to increase. So that is also awful. One doesn't make the other less awful. I understand that. The way that the media reports on it, which is around these, you know, they pick out the most sensational things like man missed his aggressive cancer appointment and ambulances were stopped and how it's reported then obviously then filters through to us and how our discourse is dominated around it. Yes. Do you worry that that outweigh or overshadows the protesting and what you're actually doing? Like is it a net positive? There've been studies done on social movement theory but also on just up oil.

itself. Okay. And it's what's called the radical flank. I don't know if you heard that through. So any movement has a, I mean, we're not that radical, are we really, what we do? We haven't hurt anyone. We haven't damaged anything, really. But anyway, with the radical flank and that people might not like the means, but they hear the message. And there's been a sort of thing done about the more JSO got name recognition for what we did, more and more people signed up to more moderate groups like Friends of the Earth. And so people were listening to the message. And lots of movements have had a radical flag. And so, and lots of movements have had a radical flank, which sort of, there's another word, the Overton window, so it moves the discourse of

what's extreme sort of to one direction so that XR might previously have seen extreme, but actually what they're saying now seems more moderate, you know, to some people. So there's a place in every movement, I think, for a bit of disruption to bring the idea through. But I agree. And I do worry that it, it, some of what we do, makes it easy. for the right wing press to do what they do. But they'll be slamming the climate movement anyway because of where their funding is and who tells them what to say and do.

So they can do everything they can to suppress any voice that speaks against the fossil fuel industries and the economy like that. But it does feel like an obvious parallel to draw would be the suffragettes back in the 1920s and 30s because you've got Emily Pankhurst throwing herself in front of a horse,

you've got women tying them, chaining themselves and the way that they were reported about in the same way was that they were crazy, they were hysterical, they were loon, like they were wanting too much. Yeah, yeah. And yet they did shift the dial. And now we're really grateful to them. We've got statues to them. I don't think they're only statues to JSO, but we're grateful to people who've, you know, raised issues. And what they did was so much more extreme than anything we do.

Well, yeah. You know, they slashed paintings. They didn't just throw some soup on a plastic cover. Yeah. And, you know, they put firebombs through people's letter boxes. It's not what we do. And yet, we're grateful to them. We see the, we benefit from the results of what they achieved.

And like you say, we have statues up to them. Yeah. Every time I have this internal thing about Justup, well, I have to go back there and think that they will have been labelled in all the ways that you guys are being labelled to. And you will have been undermined and it will have been all of that. But then I still have the effects of the media in my own brain where I do think, well it's so silly and that was stupid and I don't like and and it's it's just really hard to level

with it because the painting stuff I do think with that sometimes I think oh guys because I'm because I'm on your side yeah big picture sometimes when I see people doing things I think no don't do that that's going to really annoy everyone interestingly first I was just starting to get involved with just upwheel when they when when phoebe and Anna put the soup on the cover of of the picture and my first instinct was oh no oh I don't want to be associated with this and then when I saw that it was a plastic cover. The painting was fine. And when I heard how they were using it for messaging about art and life and which is more precious, you know, sunflowers harvests are massively threatened actually this year by high temperatures. And that's not just to worry

about pretty sunflowers. So, you know, and then I thought, okay, that may be in a way that's art itself because art is meant to make us question things. It's funny, people were really playing on the Van Gogh thing that, oh, bless him and he died and he only had one ear. This is really fair on Van Gogh, and it's like, I don't know, I don't know if we can do that. I feel like it took real digging to find out that actually there was a plastic case over it. I know. I feel like that information was not that readily available. Well, when sort of right-wing media interviews or anything, they'll still say, they'll still refer to damaging the painting, which is just a lie.

It's not true. And, you know, and they say we have no respect for art. We do. I mean, how many pieces of art and works of art are stored, say, in the basements of big galleries in various cities and are going to be threatened by flooding? You know, the National Library of Spain was flooded last week and damaged hundreds of books. What's going to happen when Italy goes under and Michelangelo's works, you know, when, sorry, not the whole of Italy, when Venice goes, that's a bit grim. When Venice goes under, which is estimated to be about in 20, I don't know, 2,100 before then, all those paintings that aren't going to be savable, they will be damaged. And I think a lot of the people who are really upset about the non-damaged to the sunflowers, they've probably never been to see it and probably really don't care.

too much about it. Oh, absolutely not. But they've been told by the right of wing media that they do care. It's all like this manufactured rage that isn't based on thought. Yeah. The reactions that you all have are the same as reactions that we have. But then you always think, oh yeah, I get that. You know, I know why it's done.

Yeah. And it has an effect. You came into my DMs after you were a welcome. addition to my dms because i have had i've had a week um for context for listeners i posted a video about the man versus bear debate last week i well i i barely even had an opinion can i just say but i basically did a video comment commenting on this kind of trend that's going across the internet where women were asked would you rather be in the woods alone with a man or a bear and overwhelmingly women were choosing the bear of my followers when I asked them

83% said they'd choose the bear there's that you know that's the answer that kind of felt like a full stop for me and it just kind of felt like a sad indication of where we were at within our society and it has gone down so fucking badly I am I got the biggest understatement of the world I have had so much abuse and vitriol disbelief anger misogynistic, deranged messages since it happened. And I need to talk about, I need help, I need to talk about it. And there's no one better to talk to about it than you. You run an Instagram account called Cat Calls of London.

And I think it's about time definitely on this podcast that we had a check-in with the kind of state of misogyny in the country and the kind of general atmosphere. And like from where I'm sitting right now, it feels kind of worse than ever. What do you think? First of all, thanks for having me. Oh gosh, where to even start with it all. I mean, it's such a huge topic, isn't it? Yeah.

This whole bare discourse, I think one of my favorite takes that has come out of it that I've seen is that even in a hypothetical question, men still can't take no for an answer. and I've seen so much vitriol online aimed towards women that have even dared to say I'd choose the bear and you yourself have experienced it before we got started you know I was talking about I've had some really bad experiences with people jumping into my DMs over saying and saying things that shouldn't be controversial for example women should feel safe walking down the street at night

should they though should they have How dare we want to feel safe, you know? So divisive, honestly. So divisive. We've got such a controversial guess with you guys. But this is the thing. These topics do seem to pull out a certain aspect of the population of men. And the way they respond is really, really concerning.

I feel like we all live, very many of us live online these days. And there's that anonymity. that comes with it and people have forgotten almost how to behave in the real world. So, you know, some of the DMs that you've received, some things I've received, you know, I have had to report to the police because they are so concerning. And people wouldn't say that in the real world at all, but they're emboldened online. But the other side of that is, for me, these are things people think, right? So these are people that you work alongside, you, your bus driver,

your teacher, you know, they might not necessarily portray these views in the real world, but behind this visage of anonymity on the internet, they're going full throttle. And that to me is extremely frightening and scary. I agree, because you said they're, you know, these people wouldn't say it in real life, but the stats are showing that they are doing it in real life. You know, that's kind of what I found really frustrating here, is that the statistics are horrific. You know, wherever you look,

then UN did that report in 2020, I think, that said like 94% of women aged 18 to 24 had experienced sexual harassment. One woman is killed every three days in the UK by a man. And it's like they're still arguing with these statistics, but... Hashtag not all men. Hashtag not all men, not all men, not all men,

all men, all men. And there were so many women in the comments as well going, this is so unfair we're really man bashing those you know they're blessed them because it's a really hard time to be a man because they could be falsely accused of rape which as we've talked about before they're 230 times more likely to be raped themselves and to be falsely accused of it but the thing and there was so much of that as well from men in the comments like it and women it's a really hard time to be a man like this doesn't help this is divisive and it's such a manipulative thing to do to completely undermine women's safety and our feelings because it is a tough time to be a man and yes it is It's because of depression and because of the pressure on them and because of a million different things that are completely unrelated to women's involvement

and women's fear of male violence. But, sorry, I keep getting so sidetracked because I'm so passionately angry about it. I feel you. But, yeah, I think that's the sticking point for me that feels really frustrating is that they are arguing with the statistics. And yes, it's like the not all men, not all men, not all men thing. But the statistics are showing that it is a lot of men

and it is nearly all women. It's also always a man. So what are your, I don't know, what are your kind of rebuttals to the comments about statistics? Rebuttals to statistics. I don't really rebutt them. I just throw more statistics at you. Yes, no, rebuttals to the rebuttals.

You can't argue with statistics. But people try. People do try. You know, so people bring up this, okay, what about men? And I always say, these things happen to men too. But the perpetrators are always men. So why are we here fighting each other or why are you here in my DMs arguing with me

when actually we have a fear of the exact same predator? So shouldn't we be working together rather than trying to derail my conversation, rather than trying to derail wider efforts that, you know, campaigners and people who are visible online talking about these issues, work with us and let's find solutions. We have to educate people better, right? We have to call out people when we see shitty behaviour in front of us, you know, all of these things. But having these kind of conversations and instigating any kind of change is going to be an uncomfortable process. And quite frankly, as I said, I don't give a shit about your comfort because women's safety is more important to me.

That wasn't your discomfort I meant men. I'm just, I'm quite like, I do feel like women, We have a role to play where we know that if we are very overt with men and we tell them and we get angry and we get emotion, we won't be taking seriously. So I do think a lot of women, and you learn it from a young age, we know how to play the game. And it is, I don't even care. I am capable of manipulating these men in order to get my point of view across because I know that I have to massage the ego before I put this in. And then I tell them that they're so great. And it's really not them.

And I understand why they're upset, but maybe they can. And it's so fucking tiring that we have to jump through these hoops. But I don't know if there's, I mean, do you, in your opinion, having had these conversations, is that what we need to do? Is that how that happens? I used to do that and I just don't care enough anymore. Do you find that you can get to them the same way? I think that are, look, there's the people who are going to be willing to listen and then

there's the people who aren't. I go out into schools and I do workshops in schools because I actually really just believe that the changes coming with future generations. I don't see any point in trying to change 50-year-old Dave from, you know, Hull's mind. Like if he's going to sit and send abusive messages and teeny weenie dickpicks, you know, till whenever. But so that's not my priority. For me, it's, okay, how do we make things better for future generations? And to me, that's with young people.

And honestly, like going into schools, it gives me so much hope for the future. Kids are amazing. Like these new generations coming up. And also, they're so spunky. Really? I was a conformer when I was younger. Do you know what I mean? I didn't really find my voice until I got a lot older.

And the things that, you know, I mean, you see it. These walkouts and protests and all, you know, they know how to advocate for themselves. And I love to see it. And it does. It gives me so much hope. I bring up these topics such as consent and we talk about sexual harassment. I did one recently and these boys made me laugh so much because they were literally sitting there just talking about, oh, no, that's not on. If one of my mate did that, I would absolutely bang him up. I'm just like, don't solve with violence, but love the energy.

You know, it's great. So, yeah, and that's the side of thing that keeps me going in all of this is, you know what? But yes, it's a really crappy world we're living in right now, and it is a difficult place for women, but I am seeing change and I am seeing a new generation coming through who know how to use their voices. And that's where we're really going to see, you know, well, maybe we won't, but hopefully your kids will. I have a dog.

I hope you've enjoyed listening to some of our best moments this year. If you want to hear the full interviews from any of these episodes, there will be links in the show notes. And thank you so much for spending the year with us. We will be back on Thursday with some lulls for you as we take a look back at our favourite moments from this year's Is It Just Me's? Should I delete that as part of the ACAST creator network?