Should I Delete That? - Convicted drug-dealer to award-winning artist: Kevin Devonport

Episode Date: April 6, 2025

Kevin Devonport is a multi-award winning artist - his work has been displayed worldwide to much acclaim… but his entry to the art world is not what you might expect because he learned to paint whilst he was serving a prison sentence for drug offences. In this conversation - we discuss how art helped Kevin rebuild his life from rock bottom. Prison reform is a complicated and nuanced topic - but Kevin’s story is testament to how creative programmes in prisons can inspire and give hope of a new life beyond prison. You can see Kevin’s work at https://kevindevonportfineart.co.uk/ Follow @kevindevonportfineart on InstagramThis episode was recorded in November 2024 If you would like to get in touch - you can email us on [e-mail] us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Dex RoyVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Emma-Kirsty FraserMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Any prison officer will tell you prisoners are creative, maybe smuggling drugs or hiding things. They'll find the most creative ways of doing things. So imagine if you can just like redirects that creativity. Welcome back to Should I Delete That? This episode is a story of hope and rehabilitation. Our guest this week is Kevin Devonport. Now Kevin is a multi-award winning artist, but his entry to the art world is not what you might expect. He actually learned to paint while he was serving a prison sentence for drug offenses. Art completely changed Kevin's trajectory. He went from selling heroin to having his artworks displayed internationally. His story is really inspiring and it's testament to how creativity can absolutely transform people's lives.

It's just time again on this episode. This is the last one that was recorded on the day that I completely lost my voice. So we hope you enjoy it. Here's Em and Kevin. Hi Kevin, thank you so much for coming in. All right, it's no problem. We got an email about your work and about an exhibition that you had. And your story was so interesting that we really wanted to talk to you.

You're an artist now. I suppose you've been an artist for a long time. Yes, you've said so not all my life though. No. Well, your earlier life looks pretty different to where you are now. Very much. It would be amazing if you could to tell us a little bit about your story. about getting into art and all of it.

So how far back do you want to go? I guess you would join the army when you were 17. I joined army one of 17. Yeah, I guess from there. I'd say going back before then, because I never really had no artist background, the type of background I come from, just exposed to it.

But I think I had a little interest in there because it's like looking around art galleries. Yeah. And but never put my hand to it. No. I think the teacher disencouraged me the old things at school. Do you think?

Yeah, yeah. Embarrassed me about a drawing must have only been about seven years old. No. It's a memory that stuck with me. It was more or less got the class of ridicule it. What did you draw on? I remember the picture. It was no worse and no,

but I think the teachers had been horrible, to me honest. It was a train driver. I remember Big Head. Yeah. You know, with the British Rail cap on. Okay, yeah. Yeah. And then the teacher laughed to you?

Yeah. just says oh look who's done this one it's horrible and all the class were going so I just felt embarrassed and I never said that's mine so um but that my memory zone was stuck that's really disappointing yeah yeah so you'd liked art before that you'd like to heart as a child i liked it but then never really put my hand to it i was just grown at a council estate in leeds so there's no really output for that you know it wouldn't really seen as something that we did and i guess if you've been discouraged by a teacher like your first attempt at it.

It's just shut down and you're probably not going to... But I do remember looking around I used to go in Leeds Art Gallery just for a kid and look at the paintings

and even like sometimes you know I'd drag my friends in there yeah and like Keff going what you're looking and she's barring but I just

admiring you know and just just think wow it'd be good if you can do that you know look how well that's painted yeah but I'd never imagine

that I'd do that myself no and then after school After school, yeah, I left school pretty early I've got no qualifications whatsoever A little bit of a tear away at school To be honest Yeah, and then I joined the army at 17

Only just made adult soldier I served around the world in Canada A couple of times, Germany Troubles running Northern Ireland Served there After that, back in the day With all the rave scene, acid house That's when I got into the drug scene

Okay So that was one of the old school ravers Yeah, when you sit into the drug scene Yeah, at first I was like Like they were just out going to raves, taking ecstasy. But then I got into hard drugs. And what do you mean by hard drugs? Hard drugs, heroin, yeah.

Okay. And you've been addicted. Like, back in them days, we never saw what a junkie was. Like, you go down the high street now and you see him everywhere, don't you? But you never saw the end product back then. When heroin epidemic coming Leeds, it was like a tsunami. Was it? More or less wiped my generation out.

Wow. Yeah. If I could, like, just go back now and say, I could be sat here all day, naming people. Yeah. So when you go on the back, they're like COVID pans. I think that was note to what the heroin epidemic was like in early 90s. That was at the time that you started using? Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, I ended up getting quite a serious problem with that, and that's when I got my first prison sentence. Okay, how did it that? Two grams of heroin. I got sentenced for four years. Four? Four years, yeah. I got sent to maximum security prison,

simply at a full sort of all places. I was only doing a four-year sentence, and I mean, the people that's doing 30, you've got the next 30 years to do. Wow, how old are you when you went to send a prison? How old will I've been then, 24, 25? Okay. What happens if you've got an active addiction

and you're sent to prison, what happened? Nowadays, I mean, you'll get medication, but back in them days, you've got nothing, it just locked up and sweat it out of you, the old-fashioned way. Okay. So I went for a really, really rough time because I think I was not just addicted to where I win,

I was addicted to benzos as well. So it was just horrific. Yeah. Yeah. At that point, the drugs were just yours. You weren't dealing drugs? I was, that's what I went to prison for, for the two grams, but it was very small, just street level.

Yeah. That's how I was supporting my own habit. Fine, okay. And where were you living at that time? I was in Leeds then. Yeah. Were you with your parents? No, parents had passed away, grandparents passed away, you know, so.

Okay. Okay, so you went to prison for the first time at 24 and you were there for, did you serve the full four years? No, I served three years. Okay. And what happened when you got out? I was clean and never touched drugs again. Yeah

Yeah Was that like a conscious You just thought After you got clean In prison Yeah I knew the path it goes Because that was the lowest point

Of my life That one was on it Honestly I just didn't care If I lived or died or not I used to take I overdosed quite a few How I survived is Unbelievable because I

Overdose quite a few times I've lost count Where people are reviving me But I got to a stage Where I just didn't care If I died or not It was really really low point Okay

Not a lot of people that in my later life when I got involved in criminal world even knew that used to be a junkie okay it's something I just

quite ashamed of I just kept it quite and I've ever said open it's not I think since when I started getting exposure at art and I was in the press

and I was just like I started opening up more, being honest more with myself if you're gonna make you're gonna make you're a better person you've got to own

the bad side of yourself and sometimes that can be hard you know yeah for sure because at all times all things I've done bad I used to justify it in some way or another.

Yeah. I make an excuse and even like selling drugs myself. Dimp back with me, the bite of someone else. And I'm not forcing nobody to take it. You know, we're just excusing my own actions. Yeah. And I think we all do that in one way or another. Sometimes when you've got to realize that going into your send.

Yeah. And confronting the bad aspects and being honest. And that's the only way you can improve yourself in your own self-development. That sounds like that happened quite a long time later. I think it's quite common for people who get clean from drugs or alcohol to do it kind of immediately because they often get a support but if you had to get clean on your own because you're in prison

how much later was it that you started to try and make that sort of peace with yourself and where you'd been? Oh, not quite later on in life because I'd say I went down more of a wrong path then it was hard to get a job with a criminal record then

I mean I work in charity sector now and I have a deal with some people you know but it's coming out of his first conviction and I know struggles to get through getting into work because people look at that application it's first in bin

where you just got out of prison so I worked down here stopped in London for a bit and then I worked in all work dried up and I remember when I went back to drug dealing but then I wasn't taking anything

I was really really broke just counting pennies to try to go to the shop and just can't look like this and I remember somebody it was strange because one of them times where everything I think I've just been laid off work.

Car broke down, which it was scrap anyway. It was worth nothing. And I had no money to get by. Somebody knocked on the door and went, you don't sell that car outside. I mean, it's broke, the gearboxes going on. I give you £150 for it. So that's fair enough.

And took it and they got that £150, pound. Borrowed another £50, pound bought a small amount of drugs. And just like any businessmen, sold it on the street myself, turned it over, kept to be investing my profits. and things grow from then. But when you're in that trajectory of that, you're not seeing where you're going.

Like I've just been happy just to have made 50 pound a day start just to get by. That's all it was. I mean, but then it's when things grew bigger and I was abroad in Rotterdam doing a deal. And I remember like sat on occasion and not off, how this happened? Yeah.

Do you know how it's? Yeah, kind of swept up in it? It's just, yeah. How did that happen? a conscience decision, just from my, I just focused on that business and expanding it and like, say that, that was like my just a day of job, say like where you come career-minded and you work on your career, that's exactly how I was in the drug business. What drugs were dealing, anything?

It was heroin then, but main ones were heroin, amphetamine and cannabis. I guess that must have been a really difficult thing for you to do, dealing drugs, having been in the position that they'd brought you to your lowest. I remember I had a business party. He's passed away now. Same again, died through the, and we were junkies together. This was where it happened,

where he'd cleaned himself up in prison. And we're both not using then. I remember him saying at the time, says, have you got any qualms with this? And I'm, what do you mean? So he says, well, like selling smack to people. I went, no. And then the other time, I was selfish.

I'm just honest, like, about himself. I didn't. Yeah. And he says, that's right. Whoever cared about us. And that was my attitude for, who's ever cared about me? So why should I care about people?

Yeah. I'd come pretty numb like that. That was my little attitude in them days. Not a good attitude to have, but I'm just honest about it now. Yeah. That's the way of my thought process is what. Yeah, and you can see how that happens.

Yeah. For sure. So you left prison after your first three years, you ended up back in Leeds, stealing again? Yeah, as it goes, I used to go through to Hull a lot. Okay. I was dealing drugs in that city. And then basically staying out of my own area where I lived,

when you drug deal, you've got to watch your back in all directions, not only places you make enemies, so it's good not letting people know where you live. And so that's why I used to stay well out of the way from where I'd be operating. as I was supposed to say. Okay. And how long were you doing that before?

I got another sentence for, but this was for amphetamine. Okay. Five kilos of amphetamine in, I think that was 2003, 2004. Okay. It was quite a bit of a conspiracy. It was a few people from all. I think seven of us were arrested in all. Yeah.

They was, like, involved with other drugs. The only evidence against me was for the amphetamine. So I got a two and a half year sentence and it'd been a class B drug Okay Was that in the same prison You'd been in before or at a different? No, no, I was in whole prison

And then Linden How many times did you go to prison? Four times, yeah At what point did you find art in prison? The first sentence I'm well behaved There was a riot, went in full Sutton And ended up in segregation for some time And then went to Whitemore Prison

And I remember seeing an art class I'm looking through the window and you see some really good talent in prison, honestly. It's a shame that a lot of people don't get to see it. Yeah. And I remember looking for window seeing some amazing paintings. So I wanted to go in again and then as I thought, I was like a complete fool of myself, do you know, because I'd not gone.

So I never did. Yeah, I guess you had the memory of yourself. But that's when I started studying in prison. So I did my GCSEs because I never got no colour. I started right at the very bottom. remember my first certificate achievement test in literacy. And then I actually sat my GCSE English literature in a strange way of segregation unit.

That was the first prison stage you did your GCSEs in. Yeah. And you'd seen an art class but you hadn't gone to one. No. When was it that you actually thought I'm going to give it a go? So, yeah, I'd got very much into the drug business then after the two and a half year sentence. Things escalated.

That's where I had international contacts when I was in prison then. and it ended up the police was paying a lot of attention to me and I ended up arrested locked up again for the 13

and a half year sentence this time 13 and that was straight after your two and a half year no about three and a half years after

okay yeah and then you ended up 13 and a half years how long of that how much of that sentence did you say? Seven years from that

yeah did you feel when you got out of your two and a half year sentence did it feel like I want to no I was just involved

in crime then see beyond that. You wanted to get back to it? Yeah. I was from the first day I was released. I was straight back out. Yeah. Yeah. I was so caught up in that life then. I didn't see beyond it. It feels like an inevitability though. There was, yeah. When you were doing your... I didn't make a decision at the time. I thought by this point in my life I'm going to make so much money that I'll be able to turn my back on it and then invest it into, you know, legitimate business and live happily ever after, which doesn't happen.

You can dream. Yeah, nearly everyone in that world, it don't come to an happy ending. No, but that was the hope, right? It wasn't like... It's an awe, but obviously you have their hopes and aspirations, don't you, somewhere, but it won't going to work out. No.

So you did two and a half years, then we're out for three years, and then ended up 13 and a half years. That is a huge sentence. How much of that did you serve? And what was it for? Seven years. That was conspiracy, it's a supplieroing. Okay.

I think by then I was just thinking, I'm going to do this, get out of this game altogether. And I made a decision to just spend my time constructively. So I thought, what can I do in all this time? And I thought, do a degree. So I enrolled with Open University, studied. I'd already got well, well into reading from my first sentence. When I spent a lot of time in segregation, I'd just read books. I was going for a book and half a day.

and so that got me well into reading and didn't know what to study didn't have a clue so I just basically exploring and I thought social sciences that covers a lot of different aspects a lot of different things so that seems interesting

so I studied that on the meantime I mean when you do open you and visit in prison you have to do it in your own time so you get like your prison job or whatever and your studying's you just make your own time for it And I was in a sports science class in the education. The only way, every job I used to get in prison.

I used to do it around education-wise. Something to develop myself. I didn't want to go in a workshop and pack tea bags all day and think what use is it. I'd do something to announce my own self-development. So I was in a sports science class and it was a good class. Do you know, where all of us in there, we gelled together. There must have been about six of us, I think. and the class come to an end

would finish the course and I remember one of the admin staff that used to assign people to different classes went you three I'm going to put you in art and that's when I just didn't mind going in you know like with these

you had some friends going with the type of thing yeah and you're told to go as well and they didn't they come paint so but yeah as soon as I was in there I just loved it did you yeah yeah I remember first thing

just a little drawing at first. I remember art teachers. I could see you had something. It was a London landscape. I think, wasn't it? It was just a pencil drawing. And we'll just, to be honest, sat there, just sat talking with them and messing about while. Yeah. But he said, yeah, I could see that you had something there. Yeah.

And then eventually leaving the class. And they used to have three art teachers in Garf. And they end up creating a role just for me to stay in there. Because it should have been like an eight-week course. So it's like, we'll make you art hardly. So I just got to stay in the art class Okay That's so nice

Was that a decision of like The prison do you think Or was it sort of Were you just lucky that you had someone Who could see something in you Who wanted to I think that was seeing that I was taking to it So like a bit of encouragement

Yeah Rather than just get rid of me And then that a bit So Yeah Because I think when you put in people Just Through these late week courses

that's not enough time to develop an artist. So did you keep studying for your degree while you started in the art? Yeah. And did you get your degree? Eventually, but not as easy as it comes. You think people say, oh, it'd be so easy to get a degree in prison. You've got all that time, but it's not. No.

You've got no resources. I did my degree on an A4 pad in a byro, because we're not allowed technology. You're not allowed the internet. It's hard to get access to the books you need. Yeah. Prison's a noisy, noisy place. So to find even a quiet space to read and, you know, when you try to, I can't digest

information like that, you know, when there's boom, boom, boom, I'm banging and, but that's what I had to do. Yeah. But I can be stubborn if I get my teeth in some, I don't want to give up. So as much as at times it was frustrating me, I still carried on with it. Do you think that the prisons in general should be doing more to make it easier to get degrees and stuff is it like does it feel like there's sort of big you know somebody it's somewhat i'd like people to know because it's quite disgusting i think how it's works the system because

the prison gets no recognition if somebody does owe you because you're doing it off your own back okay right but if you do say level one two maths and they get certificate and it beats their facts their figures they give you the time so i mean the last doing the last module of my degree i was sat in a class for eight weeks doing level one in I'm English, believe it or not. It's no benefit to me. Learning me, I'd write a letter for eight weeks. Yeah.

But they'd been at giving me a certificate, and that's ticking a box with a prison. Oh, we've got another certificate of prisoner. So it's all fabricated numbers, really. It would need to be that the prison would be recognized for the degrees that their prison is got. They'd start giving you the resources for it. Yeah.

Because if they're not getting any recognition where it's not meeting their statistics, then they're not interested in doing that. just seeing as as how many times you went in and then came out and it felt you said after the first one, you know, how hard it was to get a job because you didn't have, because you'd been in prison. What, if anything, do prisons need to be doing or do employers need to be doing? What do you think needs to change there that will actually give prisoners a chance at rehabilitating themselves or people with a criminal record the chance to get a career?

because it does feel, is it degrees and qualifications or is it, what do you think it is that we need to change? Sometimes negative aspects, look, I did an exhibition early in the year. This is just a good example, which I call it unlabeled, leaving that negative label, detaching it from people, because some people look at something that you've done. Yeah. And that becomes the overall point of your identity.

So if you've been at prison I mean I was in for drug offences But I'm also a liar or a cheat a thief And there's plenty of times I've had people like make So I like suggestions that I might be some type of thief Yeah It used to really annoy me

It's the connotations It was work in a charity shop For 30 days when I was coming to home leaves And I had to work with somebody And he went from the prison And he kept making suggestions The manager like we'd be near the till And if you walk away from it

shout somebody over. It was the only three of us in the shop. So I'm thinking, why are you getting someone to watch? The toe one's only me there. And then I was going for my bus one time and he went, well, there were 13 pound in that jar. So there still will be then. Yeah.

But why you say, why, why? They're making assumptions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. But people do that with, like I say, you might do one crime. Somebody might commit a crime and it might be in their own life, say that crime might have to five seconds of their life. If life course and it's been that much,

But then that will become their overall point of their identity. Yeah, that's what defines them. Yeah. So do you think overwhelmingly, like we have to, we have to, as a society, have a more forgiving or nuanced approach to people who have been in prison? I think the pendulum can switch. Lives of finding balance are found. So sometimes where you think some things might be too harsh,

the pendulum swings the other way. some things become soft so you've got to find balance with that sometimes like firm and fair yeah yeah so if somebody becomes too soft there's predators out there right and there's some people they need locking up

yeah because it's just a straight danger you can't have them around people because they're just predators you know and they pray on people and if you give too much of a soft hand then people they'll take advantage of that and that's the way the world is yeah so a matter of like

finding that pendulum got to get in the middle I find that with all aspects of life you've got to find balance so you get the conservatist so just as an example and we swear too much towards that way society will never progress

we'll just stagnate but if you go too much towards the iconoclast then you're just going to chaos you've got to have a bit of a balance of both and it seems to where we always go too far either way on the spectrum

instead of finding that balance yeah of course because obviously prison is, prison, prison reform is a big part of the conversation at the moment. We're hearing a lot about prisons being overcrowded, underfunded, people being released early. I think it was a bit better. I saw static cuts coming in and now the horrendous where prisons are. It's just chaos. Put it's way, I won't like to be justice minister and that was my problem to fix because it's like, yeah, it's just such a big problem. It's just a mount everyster problems. Yeah. Because for people like you, you're a really good example of

how an opportunity can facilitate a rehabilitation which can go on to a career completely different from where you've been and it can give you a fresh start and there are stories of that within prisons but I suppose the more the cuts there are the more cuts there are the harder that's going to be people just want to get the opportunities for that no I got another sentence after that 13 and a half year

and same again I met a lot of barriers coming out I was on my last module of my degree and it was like I was close getting a first I thought if I do good on this module then I get a first and the officer that was actually in charge I had to apply to the OU to get me what module I was going to do

and when he told me he'd done it he didn't so I got out and when I, so I had to do my last module on the out got in touch with OU says you haven't been registered okay which just blatantly lied to me in all honestly, but it set me back like three years now because that degree finished

and then they says, well, if you want to do the new degree, you have to go back to level two to do your, the compuls, new compulsory module. And then do this module and then you're not registered so you miss this year and I thought, just set me back three years. And because I lost my funding then as well so I had to get a student loan

when I ended up doing it again to finish the last bit. And did you get a student loan in prison? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's nice. That's good at that opportunity. But first part of my degree was funded by a charity called Prisoners Education Trust. Okay. I had to write to them, tell them why I wanted to do the degree.

Do your first modules, show that you were committed. Just to pay you for the first part first. And when you're sure you were committed, then they'd pay for the rest of it. Okay. So it was quite a good charity. But I lost that funding because they've more or less said, well, you've give up now, which it was through no fault of my own. Yeah.

You mentioned before that you were stubborn. had you not had that I think you probably wouldn't have No I saw a lot of lads Give up after a couple years They were more than capable doing degrees And it would just I've had enough for this It's just too stressful

You know when you're needing resources You can't get out Yeah absolutely After the 30 and a half year sentence You got out after seven years You went to prison one more time How long after that See after that

Straight away I didn't really want to go back into crime and I knew if I got a sentence again, it'd be 20 odd years, you know, and I was too old, I thought we can't do that then. But everything was against me. I had a confiscation order, sloutstanding, from my last sentence. It was for money I'd stolen off me. So they had this confiscation saying, I have to pay that money back, but stolen,

because one day you might be able to get that money back, so you have to pay it back with interest. So it went into hundreds of thousands, thousands, you know, with the interest. I got brought back to court for that, even though I had to serve an extra sentence for it as well. So I served a sentence for it. I had to pay the interest and just to debt what I couldn't pay.

I couldn't claim benefits when I come out. Couldn't get a job. I met the court saying, and were you paying all this money back? Yeah. Which I was being at the court saying, look, I've got no income whatsoever. I remember saying it, the court says,

I'm open to suggestions. You tell me how I'm going to pay it back. Yeah. so it was just impossible yeah and then I just got into growing cannabis

then okay was it to try and clear the debt or no because I never asked where the money's from so I was in between

the rock and a hard place yeah okay yeah and then obviously I didn't want to get into a hard drug so that's why I just

it was cannabis only yeah okay and then obviously you got caught for that yeah by that meantime as well I had my daughter in that time as well. Okay.

So that was a massive impact on me as well. Yeah? Yeah. So when you got sentenced, what's your final sentence? Four years for the... And how old was your daughter? I mean, she was won. That's really tough.

Yeah, it is because I remember the first visit, she'd come and see me. The end of the visit, she was just clinging on. It's like she knew, even though she was won. She's just clinging, and they had to pull her physically when I can't leave this seat. Yeah. And the visiting room had cleared. and she just come running back in and ran to me and jumped on me

and when I thought I'd like Arden to prison yeah that I just thought no I can't do this That's heartbreaking How long was that sentence in the end? That was four years Just it should have been two years

But because I was on licence From my other sentence I did about About two year four months I think two year three months Okay that's a big bit of your daughter's life to miss and that was really tough yeah did you was it the same prison that you'd done your 13 years in no i went to lindholm after leeds prison okay um and that's where i was in the art class then

for two years that's it did you when that's where i really perfected my skills as an artist in that really good class that was so you thought when you went for the final time did you think this is the final time i'm not i'm not going to do this again yeah 100% yeah regardless of anything um i thought i'm not going to do this with my daughter as well So in your last two-and-a-half-year sentence, you found a new art class that you loved. Did you start considering yourself an artist at that point? Not then.

Funny enough, when I saw them an art class and I wanted to get into it, and of all things, I got put in the greenhouses at first. Some of them said they'll just assign you a job. and it was a rubbish job it was right in the middle of winter time so we weren't doing anything was sat in a cold room basically

and people were just playing cards and I remember saying so I said I'm getting out of here in your car you've got to do at least two months and I said what you watch by end at a week I will be out of here and I had my idea

I'm getting in that art class I'd already seen somebody in there says put my name down and see the art teaching you know to get me in the art class and I put an application into the governor and says do you call this rehabilitation

I'm into growing cannabis and you've put me in articulture. I was out of there in a flash. So good. In the art class, yeah. This is a really like generalist and judgmental, like, preconception that I have. But when you think of prison and you think of male prisons particularly, you don't necessarily think of art. It feels quite paradoxical, the sort of the art and the prison.

how was it among like other prisoners people your friends people you were there with it's a big part in prison you guarantee every prison you go you know somebody will do people have a little hustle some people will sell drugs for an hustle to get money you know if not getting money in there um to get by but you'll always get every wing somebody will be doing they'll be a portrait artist they'll be doing people's you know the partners girlfriends kids and that'll be their hustle to get by and that's a guaranteed on every wing there's home where somebody doing that. Okay.

So it's a big part in prison and you see like people matching, making things and one thing you find any prison officer will tell you prisoners are creative in ways that doing things, maybe smuggling drugs or hiding things

they'll find the most creative ways of doing things. So imagine if you can just like redirects that to a more positive way than I think some of the best places where you'll get creative it. creativity. Yeah.

It does feel the shame, you know, talking as we were earlier about the underfunding and under-resourcing, that like you say, there is a lot of creativity. There's probably a lot of, like, resourcefulness, there's a lot of traits that can be. Engine away, yeah, yeah, yeah. That could be harnessed for good. We're all just products of the environment, you know,

so people, if I realize now you can't judge people because you don't know, if you, you aren't watching their shoes, you can't. No. So only way I sometimes where I think you can get more empathy and understanding of people is just put yourself in their position now. So when you see that almost guy on the street, don't think, oh, well, he's got there and it's probably this

and that, you know, just like, how would you like to be there like that right now at this moment in time? And what would you do if you were there? You know, when you start thinking that, you know, at that moment, if I was there in this weather, you know, you feel that compassion then. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

I think we do overwhelmingly that compassion. and we do think in very binary terms when it comes to people who've been in prison or people who are in prison and we have a preconception of what... We judge too much, yeah, yeah. We do, and then it doesn't leave anybody anywhere to go afterwards because the point of prison is rehabilitation,

ultimately, and if we don't make space for that afterwards, then what was that at all for? With your art, so you loved and pursued it, if your final sentence when you got out was it like I'm going to bring out out into the world

or was it No no no I can't say I surpassed my expectations because I didn't have any expectations I just liked doing it It was an hobby It's just something I love to do

I didn't expect anything from it and when I was in that art class brilliant art teacher in there he was good in more or less well it's good artist himself you know, there's technical ability, but it'll just leave you to it, which I think you should do anyway,

because everybody's an individual, you know, when it comes to the creative spark in them, everybody will let it out in some different ways, so it was good at, like, how you could say, channeling that, like it leave you to self, but when you needed help, it'd be there. Yeah.

There's, have you had it, Kessler Awards? Yes. Yeah, that's why I got the Kessler Award for painting, I think it's 2019. Yeah. And that was why you were, Yeah, so that was my first, like, award that had won. And he put you up for it?

Yeah, a few of us all in the class put into the castle and, yeah, end up getting the bronze award for the painting. And then, from then, we've been ex-military, a charity used to come in every month, care after combat. And just used to talk to the guys every month, you know, little forums would have. So they just cater for just veterans that are in prison system.

I remember one of the guys, we're very close friends now. He says, what do you do in here? I'm in the art class. I just paint Monday to Friday. So it brings me your paintings down next time. We'll have a look. And I brought them down and he was admiring. I said, wow, these are good.

I said, do we'll text them if you want. If this helped the charity, you know, sell them. He ended up coming back. They end up selling at times. We're all right out money. and, yeah, I always kept in touch with them after. Yeah. So I think from then every ball of year,

I've always given the paintings walking off. Yeah. Yeah. So it became a career then? From then, no, because from getting out there and realizing where had gone wrong last time, and regardless of anything, I mean, I had a completely outlooking life.

That's when I really started looking into myself, you know, all the bad points of myself. And, you know, being honest with myself. as well. Yeah. And I thought the best way to move on then was through my degree. So I finished my degree then, I graduated, graduated in the prison, did a little degree ceremony for me.

And which I think, yeah, I remember the Tommy at the time of the first prisoner to graduate from Lindholm prison. Okay, that's really cool. People coming through doing the degrees there, but not actually graduating. Yeah. So I thought when I get out, I've got a lead uni. do my master's and I thought while I'm in the university because I'm going to have better resources

they'll be at a signpost me then you know if I meet people and they'll be at put me on the right pathway to get employment through this I knew we'd have to work with people in justice system and try to use my pastors you know lived experience and yeah I remember I had an opening day at the Juneer applied got accepted to do my masters and COVID happened

and there's only out of prison 10 days caught COVID, which I was really, really ill. Oh, no. And then my course got cancelled with lockdown. So that was like every time I tried going down somewhere, it's never easy. You know, some of my own ways

gets like putting in front, but then things just started opening up for me in the art world then as well. I started getting a bit of recognition as an artist. Yeah. Yeah. So you never made it to leads to do your masters? No, I never did.

But I did end up working with offenders anyway. Yeah. I got a job because I've worked in charity sector since for the past three years now alongside being my own artist. So yeah, I was working with a company then that was just working with offended people

in the justice system. So it's either on prison license, probation. I run a few, I was one of the tutors there. So I used to run an art class, a veterans group. You used to help people with disclosure letters, you know, for jobs. Yeah. So I do disclosure sessions and tell them about all legalities of disclosing criminal records to employers. Yeah.

And then a boxing group as well. Is it felt easier this time? Things fell into place more. Yeah. Like I say, after my master's route got shut down, then the art opened up. Then it seemed to just that job seemed to open up for me. And then it was a balance of both. I was using that job and my art in that job.

And how do you like being an artist? I love being an artist when that got shut down for my masters and it was like I was lost because I thought I'm not going to a criminal world so turning you back on one world where you're accepted and then my experiences of trying to get into the other world where you're not accepted

it's hard to explain which you're lost have you felt that the art world has been accepting of you given your past a mixture you're always going to get people at the judge but I don't mind And sometimes I've been, I've had funny things where judgment and then I'll turn it into a positive. And I think, because I don't look like your typical artist as well. So I go to a lot of exhibitions and I stand out like I saw them.

And I honestly don't mind at all. No. With the judgment and what we were talking about earlier and the preconceptions people have and the way that we think very singularly about people with a criminal record, does that not frustrate you at all? Your film has got to be a little bit fixing and set criticism on. It's all, you know, and I've had it like parts of my art where people have criticised it at some time and they've actually not knowing they've complimented it.

I've said, thank you. Some of my art, it's, I'll take the piss a little bit, a bit tongue-in-cheek. You know, so it can have a serious theme, but I'll also do it a bit tongue-in-cheek as well to put a little bit of smile at things. And I use the Catalan's banana, you know, banana tips. Well, it only just salt recently again, didn't it?

Yeah, I think so. 6.2 million, I think, last week. What? It was under 20 grand when I, like, because I use it a lot in my paintings now. It's the symbolism I use for absurdity, just because of the absurdity in the so of it. I got a piece exhibited in European Museum of Modern Art in Barcelona,

and it was basically Catalan's Banana. Okay. But I painted it to quite a degree of skill. And also I painted, rather than using gaffer tape, I painted it using cellar tape, because I thought, I'm just making a demonstration. It's harder to paint salad tape. gaffirate

and I was being transparent on a white background so I was making a point of like we're not appreciating skill and talent as much as something that's simple and easy yeah

and somebody made a comment and says a banana how groundbreaking and I says thank you says that's your point I'm making you understand it you've got it

yeah I guess I mean my art is subjective isn't it like what makes good art I had a saying that all art That's good art. As long as it's honest, just be honest with yourself. Do you know, don't try to do what other people want to do or follow the sheep, you know, be a sheep.

Just because this is what you think art should be, so you're doing that. Yeah. Just let it come from yourself. Yeah. Just be honest. And no art is bad then if it's honest. But the way I say I've gone full circle is because art some ways just a reflection of the society it's spawned out of. And when you've seen some of the crazy things now, like the invisible sculpture

and maximum amounts of money for very little effort is that not the society we're living in now? Yeah. So it's just a perfect representation of the time we're living. Where we are.

This has been such an interesting conversation. Thank you so much. We're going to put the links to your website, to your art in our show notes. This has been absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much. Thanks. It's been a pleasure.

Should I delete that is part of the ACAS Creator Network. Thank you.