Should I Delete That? - Crisis: Lessons from a Hostage Negotiator

Episode Date: January 15, 2024

This week on the podcast, the girls are joined by crisis and hostage negotiator Nicky Perfect. After working in the Met Police for over two decades, it was recommended that Nicky try negotiating. She quickly realised it was her calling, and something she wanted to do for the rest of her career. Nicky's day-to-day life as a crisis and hostage negotiator was adrenaline fuelled: she was constantly dealing with people at breaking point and immersed in life-or-death situations, such as terrorist incidents and kidnappings. On this episode, Nicky shares her proudest moments, toughest negotiations, and biggest mistakes. She also explains why empathy is the most important factor in defusing highly volatile situations.You can purchase Nicky's book, Crisis, hereFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The average human experiences between 6 to 8 traumatic incidents in their lifetime, whereas a police officer ambulance service, something like that, experiences about 4 to 500. Hello and welcome back to you, Should I Delete That? I'm M. Clarkson. And I'm Georgie Swallow. we've got the subs bench there cooling up the subs I'm fine with that

as long as whenever you guys make babies you guarantee that I can get off the sub bench I'm in we'll put that on contract I love that um how are you George I am good

I'm swell it is sunny finally it is cold as balls but I'm good it is cold as balls I don't know why balls are cold but they are today balls are famously warm

steamy sweaty Oh, clammy. Caddoom. Um, so we've got an amazing interview today. One of the ones that Alex and I pre-recorded before our one on her mat leave. But Georgie is here today to do the good, bad and awkward with me. So without further ado, George, do you have anything good, bad or awkward, please? I have all three.

And my good, I feel like you're going to appreciate a lot. Uh-huh. Guess who has got her paws on the macdaddy of air friars? I got a ninja I saw it on Instagram I was gasped for you I cannot believe it and Kyle got it for me

I didn't ask him for it he just was like it's time your time is now he just sensed it he felt it's like my girls become a woman I have and so I've got

the dual action I've got two drawers I can air fry twice as much I want two drawers twice the time because I love my steamy no not steaming

she does like a steamy I love my speedy yeah those steamy balls but to be able to do two things at once would be fucking stunning well that's it like I use my air fry every day when I cook and I had like a little baby one that I bought about three years ago and I was like

I'll give it a go falling in love with it and now I'm like oh I can cool I can cook like two sausages and that's about it no no no no you name it I can cook it sausage veg potatoes everything everything was so far I've burnt broccoli but we're not going to say much more about that No, that's human error, that's not Friera. No, that's all me.

Fab, what's your good? My good is that tomorrow, I'm going to Japan. I know. I'm so jealous, that's going to be amazing. It's my good and my bad, because I'm so... Actually, it's not my bad, but it's a good tinted with, like, a dollop of anxiety, because it's going to be so amazing. By the time this comes out, I'll already be there.

You'll be there. But I've got a 14-hour flight with a baby who very recently found her voice. She's just started yelling. And it's like so cute. But I'm like, oh my God, it's so loud. Did you see, I actually saw the other day, I'll say in the news, but let's call it Instagram news. A lady on a flight crocheted this baby that she didn't know on the plane, a tiny hat. Just because they're on the plane.

So maybe someone will do that for Arlo. Maybe someone will knit her and laugh at her. Well, because you know what's going to happen now. I'm going to get on the flight. No one's going to do it. I'm going to hate all that. Well, that can be. You're out there.

I know it's going to be amazing and it's such an adventure like it's adventure of a lifetime and Alex and I's like full bucket list we talked about doing this for years obviously never did it before we had a kid and then it was like oh my god if we don't do it now it's only going to get harder and harder and harder so it kind of felt like last chance to lose it's like now or never let's go it's not now or never we literally could have done it but but it just felt for us like it's going to be epic yeah let's just go so we've got this incredible adventure plan like travelling but with a baby I don't speak any bloody Japanese

I thought you're going to say I don't speak any baby I was like does anyone I just I actually think I'm going to change my badge to the fact that you're not putting me in the suitcase and taking me with you seeing how full of the suitcase is so we do not have the capacity whatever I say ditch your clothes but fine

I would be arrested for nudity at Tokyo airport but at least Georgia will be there I'll be there and she'll also be naked because we don't have basically. Hey, we can make Arlo's clothes work. As long as they cover the important bits, we'll be fine. The fanny. Alex will have cold balls if we stick for this.

I told you. Someone will have cold balls. Bads. Oh, so my bad this week is my little puglet bean piglet. So she's a little old gal, but over Christmas and New Year, she hasn't been very well. And I feel like I'm a terrible person for also going to laugh at this a little bit, though, but I think you have to find the funny in shit situations. She's also a dog, so she does not know what you're saying. Exactly.

Well, she's had the shits, and they've been projectile, and many a rug has been sacrificed to the cause, along with my mum's nice white dressing gown, because she picked her up to take her outside, and everything came out of piglet's back end, covered mum's dressing gown so really this sounds like a mum bad not a bit bad but it was

it's been challenging but we're hoping she's going to get it a little bit better we're just playing it by ear a little bit yeah little puggles I know a little piglet bean so sad that dogs get old it's so unfair it annoys me they don't live as long as us

I know and they deserve like they're so much better than humans oh heck yeah they should be the ones running the world and we should be the pets but I would live in that world Jordan's Manifesto. What's your bad?

My bad is, well, it's the lump on my face that I just found last week. And then I went to the surgeon about it, because it's a big, great gal. And it was just TMJ, which is fine. But I've had this screw that I found in my face. Like, I found it about a year or two ago. How many people can say they found a screw in their face? I'm sorry. I said it to the surgeon yesterday.

It's like, have you just been generally? Like, because I've seen them in two years. I was like, yeah, they're pretty good. I've got a screw just sort of sticking out. And that's been there for a long time. I've been there for ages. I just found it like, maybe a year ago, two years ago. That's like, I just don't want to deal with this.

So I just kind of showed it off and I got a bit drunk. I was like, ha-ha, look. And then when I saw him yesterday about the lump, he was like, don't me to remove the screw. And I was like, yeah, yeah, should be fine. And then he was like, okay, I'll just dab it with a bit of anesthetic. And I was trying to be brave. So he's put a bit of gel on.

He was like, if it hurts, you can just, we can just do more. Like, we can put the needle in. I was like, okay, cool. I'll be fine. I was trying to be brave. It's trying to be cool. Honestly, I don't know. I would be like, no, just inject me with everything.

No, I was trying to like, be lazy. You're a mum now. You're tough. I'm fine. You do what you've got to do. Don't worry about me. Like, I could literally, it was, he was unscrewing it from the bone. Like, I could feel.

And it really bloody hurt. I'm not surprised. And then it was like, he was like, do you need the local? And I was like, well, no, because I said I didn't. So now I don't. Like, because it can't go back. Yeah, I can't get back. It was embarrassing.

all the rest of my own myself tragic so I was like I'll stick to it then idiot um so then I just let it and it was so sweaty by the time you finished I was just slimy honestly that just even the thought of that I'm like touching my gum thinking what could that even be like and that just sounds I'd be getting to knock me out

it wasn't very nice hit me over the head with something he's used a screwdriver for your face he must have a hammer somewhere to like knock you out I was like oh and I want to read the branding on it I'm like I swear that's just like a philip screwdriver I was like, right, so I couldn't have just done this at home. Pop down to be in Q. Yeah, exactly.

I think she was one of those. Anyway, it's gone, which I, then I came home and saw you last night and ate soy sauce and it's stunned. It's done. It's done. Anywho, it's gone. It was fine. Do you have a hole now? Yeah.

You're going to see? Oh, my God, yeah. Oh, I can see the hole. That's nice. I can see the head. We could definitely put something in there. But why? I don't know.

What have we got? Like. um nothing okay awkwards before we get on with the interview i don't want to tell mine i do the reason that georgie's here today was because last night she was telling me a story and i was like george what are you doing tomorrow please can you come down the story on the podcast i've only used for my humiliation i get it yeah if i see it um so i was having a lovely little day date with kyle at zizi's we're like oh we'll go for lunch we'll get some pizza and i thought you know what i could do like two birds one stone here and make some content whilst they eat my food. And so I'm sitting opposite

Kyle and I get my phone out and I'm holding it some pretty weird angles because at this current point I'm checking the light because that is what my life is at the minute. And I'm holding it out and I'm moving it round and this woman starts making these really funny looks at me and I think oh oh that's interesting. She's an older lady and I thought I've clearly done something she's telling a friend they're both turning round and so I snap a couple pics of myself whilst I'm on a date with my boyfriend not of both of us, just me

and this woman gets up and comes over and I've gone oh bugger I wonder if she's thought I've taken pictures of her even though I was like moving my hand around quite a lot and why would I take a picture of a stranger why would anyone take a picture of a stranger but that's where my brain went and she came over and she lost her shit she was and this is a full restaurant people

this is a full zizzies and she just lost her shit and she was telling me off like how dare I take her pictures, who do I think I am, I'm obscene, I'm awful, and I don't do well in confrontation, so I panic a little bit, I'm getting my phone out, showing her my camera roll, and I'm going, I swear there's none of you, it's just me, and there's like me and my face eating a load of pizzas that I'm showing her, which was just mortifying enough as it is. Look at all my selfie.

You know, look at my pretty face, that's what I was doing. No, I've got, I could have died. Anyway, once I showed her that, I thought she'd go, oh, my bad, I'm sorry, and walk away. she didn't. She carried on telling me off and then went back to her table. And I was like, okay, fine, deep breaths. Deep breath. Start taking into my food again. I got Kyle to take videos of me eating my pizza. Honestly, that's the embarrassing part. Nothing's going to swear you down. And content must be captured at all costs. Honestly, and then this woman gets up again. And I looked at Kyle and I just went, she's coming back

over, she's coming back over. And I start welling up. Like, I panic. I don't do well. when I, like, this just makes me uncomfortable. I start welling up, she comes over, starts having another go at me, and I lost it. I bawled my eyes out in the middle of CZ's. Which essentially, because I was taking pictures off myself. And this woman wanted everyone to know. And that was the worst thing is she was, I mean,

telling everyone that I was firstly taking pictures of her, but then when I had to loudly correct her and say, no, no, just of myself, whilst my boyfriend is seeing opposite me. It was awful, and now I never want to go to Zeezy's ever again. It's really, like, you never want to be busted taking a selfie up at the best of time. It's bad enough, you know, like, when you walk down the street, and like, I don't know, you want to do, like, a little video, and you want to talk to your stories. And I see people do that on Instagram, I'm like, wow, like, that takes guts.

Because if ever I try and do that, I'm like, oh, people are looking, people are looking. I try it, sitting in a little restaurant. Nope. rumbled, like, straight away. And I can safely say I never thought I would hysterically cry in the middle of Azizis. But you did it. It's, like, there is, like, I get the people are scared

of, like, random people capturing content and, like, putting things of them on Instagram. But it's so mean. But I just, like, and also, I, I, oh, gosh, I feel like I've got to be so careful to say what I'm going to say, but, like, she was of an age that, I guess she didn't use Instagram. Yeah.

And so she must have been like, well, this woman's taking a picture of me. Like, what, even if someone... For salacious means. Even if someone had their phone up to me, for some reason. And bear in mind, she's across the other side of the restaurant. She wasn't on the next table. She doesn't have cold balls. She's got big balls.

She's got the biggest cahoes going. If somebody came up to me and literally snapped at it in my... I still wouldn't confront them. No, me neither. I still feel like, okay, we'll enjoy that. Yeah, you have fun with that. And she said, and I don't know, maybe something's happened in her past, I don't know. But she was like, I know, but she was like, I know you're like,

I know your type, you take pictures and you do, and I was sitting there going, it was just for myself, I'm so sorry. It's not what you think. I'm an influencer. I did, I start justifying. I start going, oh, I make pictures on, in the internet. That didn't help my course, because I couldn't get my words out, right,

to go, oh, hi, my job's in social media. No, I take pictures for the internet. No, that doesn't help anyone. So, yeah, I now can never go to Zizi's in Chisick ever again because last summer I cried so yeah, let's hear yours now small, simple, stunning sat around this morning, tripped over a Christmas

tree, that's embarrassing for you. I was looking up I thought it was a little branch Oh my god you were outside, you were in public I was in public, I felt a little like I thought it was a branch so I was like I can run through a branch I'm tough, I'm big and it kept coming with me I was like what the fuck and I looked down and it was the whole Christmas tree

you know those memes that are the videos are really viral online at the moment and it's like I don't have kids I can do this all night or like I live in Canada it snows all the time you know this yeah I know you mean yeah and I felt like that this morning I was like I live in London the Christmas trees are gonna be here until fucking March oh yeah they will be so yeah it's also something really sad about seeing all the Christmas trees just like cast outside have you been on my street right now not only is everybody's dead Christmas tree out there's a dead bloody rat on the pavement outside of

yeah I saw him and I made a quick swift exit it's like leak out there Christmas is well and truly over that's the worst thing for you that like you see these sad little Christmas trees, like, and they've just been cast out from the nice warm house because they are no longer wanted. You just kicked one. Like, while he was already down, I'm just saying. Well, today's interview, without further ado, is with the phenomenal Nikki Perfect. When we heard her story, we literally, I was going to say we kidnapped her, but given her

line of work, incredibly inappropriate turn of phrase. Nikki Perfect is a crisis, was a crisis negotiation. she's written a book and we got it and we were like oh my god she's amazing and she worked for years working negotiating with terrorists with high stress situations and i just thought to myself i could never and now i look at you when your confrontation it's easy i could never georgie also could never and we all know al equally could never which is why we were so excited to talk to her and she blew our mind. She was the coolest woman in the whole wide world.

So I hope you guys love this interview as much as we did. Okay, so without further ado, here is the interview. And just because I know she'll have listened to this and she'll kill us if we don't acknowledge it. Alex, we love you. You're not being replaced. We miss you loads. You are.

You're never coming back. I hate being in the middle. I need Nikki. I don't want this competition. Yeah, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? I don't know. Guys, I hope you enjoy the interview.

Love you loads. Hi, Nikki. Hi. Oh God, we are so excited to have you here. We've been absolutely buzzing for this episode, haven't we? For so long. Honestly, I've been checking the calendar. I'm like, when's the Nicky Day?

When's the Nicky Day? Oh, thank you. Yeah, we have a lot of questions. Excellent. I feel like I'm going to be tripping over myself here to like, where do we actually want to begin? Well, let's begin with what you did. You're retired now. Yeah.

But you were a crisis and hostage negotiator. Yeah. Is that right? That's right. Yeah. And you have written a book called, crisis, which is one of the most gripping books I've ever read. And I'm not good at writing, I'm not good at reading nonfiction.

I find that I can't really stay switched on, but I am utterly gripped by this book. It is so fantastic job. Thank you. And it's your experiences of being a crisis and hostage negotiator and your time before that when you're in the... Yeah, so in the Met Police. Yeah, that's my background. Okay.

Could we hear about your background? Yeah. How you got into doing what you did? Yeah, definitely. So when I was at school, I was kind of at school for a social event, really. So I had friends and I liked to do music and play sport. So I was doing my first year of my A-levels and my dad was like, I'm not sure you're going to be great at university.

I didn't say that out loud, but that was obviously what was going through his head. He saw an advert and a newspaper that just said about these police cadets where you can go and rock climb and abseil and canoe and have a really good time and get paid for it. And he showed me the ad and I was like, wow, that looks amazing. I can do that for a living and he was like, yeah. I was like, well, I'll definitely do that. And so I applied and I got in. So I was only, I was just 18.

At the time you had to either be 18, you had to be between the ages of 17 and 3 quarters and 18 and a quarter, believe or not. So I went just spot on the age of 18 and two months. And once I'd done a year there, I then went to training school and sort of to the big school, the other side of the estate. It was then in Hendon and joined the regular officers at the age of 19. So very young, got posted out to South East London or South East London, and yeah, just did a variety of things for about 20 years. And then all in uniform did a territorial support group, became a sergeant, then became an inspector, worked all of South and South East London, ended up becoming one of the only females. There was 650 men and there was seven women at the time on the arm response unit. it, yeah, so that was interesting. I got no experience of firearms. It was a challenge. I

wanted another challenge, didn't know what I was going to do, so it felt like the right thing to do at the time. And whilst I was there, and I have to be honest, it was the toughest thing I've ever done, 43 men I was in charge of. And, yeah, yeah. And I, a lady, so I was an inspector and a lady came, and she was two ranks above me, so she was a superintendent, and she became my mentor. And she said to me, this one sentence, which I will never forget, which have you ever thought about becoming a negotiator? And at the time, I hadn't, because to be a negotiator in the MET, you had to be a chief inspector. So I was in the Metropolitan Police in London for 31 years.

I had 20 years service, and I was like, I don't think you can. I can't. I'm an inspector. She said, no, no, it's changed. You can now become an inspector. As an inspector, you can become a negotiator. I was like, really? She said, yeah.

And I'd work with negotiators before, especially in our response, because they're part of a different tactic. I've worked in a busy Suffolk borough, and so we'd used negotiators on quite a lot of occasions. So I knew what they did, and I knew that they were part of a tactic, but I didn't know exactly what they did. So I found out a bit more, and I was like, oh gosh, the more I'm finding out about this, the more I'm really looking forward to it. And I think this might be the right thing for me to do. So you have to, so in policing, negotiation is done on top of your day job for the majority of people. So throughout the UK, any police negotiators, they do it on top of their day job. I know, it's amazing, isn't it?

To think that they go and do, they might be on, I don't know, on the child protection unit or they might be on frontline 24-hour policing. I was in the director of professional standards at the time, which is investigating internal corruption and any complaints. Oh, that's that line of duty. It's not quite as exciting as line of duty, to be fair. You don't need to tell us that. But yeah.

It's just as exciting as line of duty. I thought, go, go, go. And so I was doing that, and I applied to become a negotiator, and I went on a two-week, really intensive course. So, like, I was an advanced driver. I'd done firearms training. I'd done public order training, all of those courses. So I thought, well, this will be all right, you know, nice, easy communication course. That'll be right.

I can talk to people. And it was changed my life. Turned my world upside down, if I'm honest. I always say it was more of a personal development course and a negotiation course because it held you under the spotlight for 24-7 for the two weeks that you were there and everything you said and did, they were like, what's making you to say that, what's your thought process before that, what did your tone sound like there? And then we do role play based on real life scenario, so really long days, full days in the

classroom, then night time role play, and then at the end of that you came out and that was the beginning and I sat on that course and I had one of those epiphany moments where I was like, this is amazing. I just want to do this now for the rest of my life, definitely for the rest of my career. And I don't think many people get that, you know, when people are looking for their purpose. I don't think many people get that. So to have that epiphany moment was incredible. And yeah, and then at the time there was a full-time unit at New Scotland Yard and just six people on it. And so I kind of made it my goal to get onto that unit, which I did five years later and then I became the director of UK training so I was sort of in charge of all the

training for all new negotiators and got to travel the world yeah it was just an amazing job while also being an active negotiator yeah so yeah so doing the training on top of being a negotiator yeah so but but it was my full-time role my mum loved it because now she could tell everybody that I worked I was Nick from New Scotland Yard you know like this amazing fictional character that she could tell all her friends about yeah so it was great it was just amazing The training, it really fascinates me. It sounds exhausting, absolutely exhausting, like the way you described it sounds, but also so fascinating, so based in psychology.

Yeah, really based in psychology. Yeah. Yeah. And what I really liked as well is when you said how we're always, we're always praised for talking and for being the ones that have something to say, but we're never praised actually for just listening. and that's something that you learned. Yeah, I learnt the power of listening.

I didn't realise listening was such an important skill. Yeah. Because we all have an opinion, right? And we all want everyone to know our opinion most of the time that sometimes the power of listening is that you find out so much more about somebody else. What was your experience as a woman in a male-dominated environment? Did you feel like you had to behave in a different way, I guess,

modify your behaviour to fit in where you were? So that's an interesting question, because I joined policing in the 80s. Yeah. So in 1988, I was like a fully-fledged police officer. And you weren't allowed to wear trousers, for starters, as a... What? Yeah, I know. How did you catch the baddies?

I know. I tell my 16-year-old that and she just like looks at me and goes, what do you mean? You weren't allowed to wear trousers. How did you run? And we had these tiny little handbags and a trunction about that big that fitted in the handbag. You didn't really. I should have put a handbag.

That's like a Halloween costume. I know. It's in the museum now, which is slightly worrying and makes me feel really old. But yeah, so did I modify my behaviour? Probably. Probably without even realising it because it's a survival instinct, isn't it? Yeah. To modify your behaviour to fit in because we all like to fit in.

So probably, did I have any huge problems working in a male-dominated environment? Certainly not on team, not on response team. In firearms, probably. But that was more down to, I was like a round peg in a school. square hole in firearms because I'm just not aggressive. My partner just laughs at me all the time and says, I can't imagine you in firearms. You're so not that aggressive, that assertive. So, yeah, then, but the great thing about policing is so many different roles that you can

choose to do it. It's like a job, jobs within a job. So I would change role every three to five years, so it's brilliant. And until I found negotiation and then that was it really for me. And that's what you knew that you were. That's where you wanted to be. That's such a tough job. I mean, M and I were talking to you beforehand.

There is absolutely no way I could do that. We'd be so bad. I'd be bribing. I'd be like to come on, don't do it. Don't do it. I'll give you jelly beans. Like if you were, I think what struck me is the sheer amount of patience that you need. I couldn't cope with that.

It's just, it's so much patience. And you have to, you have to, you must have to put your frustration. to one side along with everything else like your ego your opinions yeah yeah how do you not judge yeah there must have been situations and I always think this for police officers in general where you as a human you do all they're breaking the law so you want you do judge them how do you not how do you put that to one side yeah so there is for that time that you're with that person it has to not be about you It has to be all about them and what's happening.

So your job is to save the life of the other person. And that kind of really helps because you know you're in sort of a life or death situation in the majority of these cases. So it's not about not judging because we all know that we do judge. It's about recognizing that you are judging. And when you are judging to go, hang on a sec, what's making me judge that? Okay, that's about me. That's about my values and beliefs.

that's not about this incident here and it's not about the other person so you park it you're just able to park it for that period of time yeah yeah you need a lot of I mean empathy I imagine yeah yeah lots of empathy lots of um

patience lots of resilience you know sometimes a negotiation goes on for hours on end sometimes the person that you're talking to doesn't like you particularly not because of who you are because they have no idea who you are but because of what you do and their association with that so you have to overcome quite a lot of barriers you talk about one of your first negotiations being eight hours yeah and the guy said two things

yeah yeah how like how do you do what do you what did you do i'd lose my life yeah and it's interesting because i bet you wouldn't i bet if i put if i like create a course and and put you under sort of the same similar circumstances you wouldn't lose your mind you might struggle to think of something to say but there's a team around you what were the circumstances of that so it was a young lad who had so it was my first ever negotiation. So it was a young lad who'd been released from prison for grievous bodily harm. And he went around to see his ex-partner. They'd had a child that he'd never seen. He'd never seen the child before. They'd had some sort of emotional heated conversation. She alleged that he had assaulted her and he'd taken the child without her consent and driven off. And there was

a car chase, you know, the old stingers that they throw across the road. If you've watched any of the police programs, they'd done that and he was now surrounded by police. He was holding the child. The child I really remember, and like I know time distorts your memories, but I remember how massive his hands seem to be and how small the child seemed to be. I really remember that. And it was bucketing with rain the whole time. So, and it was a really interesting negotiation for me

because I learnt so much from it. Yeah. So when I got that call, this is what went through my head. I was like, heroin negotiator arrives on scene. As a conversation, listens to the young man, he listens to her, he hands her the child, he shakes her by the hand, he's led off. When you read the book, you know, it was eight hours and he literally said two sentences. One was you don't understand and the other I can't repeat. And I walked away from that thinking and he was, we ended up getting the child back, but he was tasered. And there was a fight and he ended up going back to prison.

And I walked away from that thinking, well, that's not what I was expecting. I didn't want it to end like that. You know, I'd got these skills. I'd been on this amazing course. I've been taught by these amazing, really knowledgeable people. What on earth happened? And it took me quite some time, and I watched other negotiators, and I did lots of research around psychology and human behaviour.

And I suddenly realised that a whole conversation was about me. It was about what I wanted to happen. And I'm guessing, though I've never spoken to him, but I'm guessing, if I look at the world from his perspective, he had just been released from prison. He's never seen his child before. had an argument, was now surrounded by police officers. He didn't see some heroin negotiator walking towards him.

He saw a white middle-aged, middle-class woman and probably thought, well, how are you going to help me? Or what have we got me in common? Or you're going to take my child away from me, or you're going to send me back to a place I don't want to go. So, yeah, so it taught me a big lesson that negotiation. What would you have done differently? Now.

Yeah. So I think now I'd have probably opened up the conversation just like that, looking at the world from his perspective, and said something along the lines of I'm guessing this is not how you planned your day to go you're probably excited about seeing your daughter you clearly love your daughter

you've had some sort of argument and now here is a white middle-aged middle-class woman coming to speak to you and you're probably looking at me thinking well how are you going to help and what on earth have we got in common and I might be completely wrong but I'm thinking if I was sat in your chair

that's what I'd be thinking so start to show them that I'm looking at the world from their perspective. And is that something that you, that a skill was something that you acquired and you took that into future negotiations? Yeah. And that would be how you'd kind of get on somebody's...

I'd say that must be very useful in your real life as well. Absolutely, I'll do it now. Yeah. So even now am I, so I've got, so apart from, I do consulting and I've written the book, but I've also got a coffee shop, a community hub and a garage. And when I left policing and I was thinking, or who am I now and what am I going to do?

And I randomly ended up buying my local village garage and converting the car showroom into this community social enterprise coffee shop and a community gym. Whoever hasn't made your life into a film is really stupid. I know, that's so cool. And I mean, it's using all the same skills for my customers, you know. And it's like there's three huge lessons I learned about being a negotiator. One is that we all have a story. So as we sit here now, all of us in this room have a story, stuff that we don't share

because we might not know the person enough. You bump into people in the street, don't you have those encounters? Sometimes that other person seems really angry or cross. And you're like, whoa, hang on, what's the matter with you? But we never know what their story is. The second one is we all have a crisis at some stage in our life, sadly. We will all experience loss, which is a very unfortunate and sad thing.

And the third one is that loneliness is one of the biggest killers in the UK, if not the world. And you can be lonely without being. on your own, if you see what I mean. And when I left policing, and I was like, well, what am I going to do? I'm so, I know that my highest value is to be in service. I know that. There's nothing I can change about that.

It makes me happy. So selfishly, it makes me happy and I enjoy doing it. And I was like, well, my God, I've got these skills. How's this all going to work? And then suddenly I was talking to my customers, and I was talking to some of the older people in the village who were now coming to use the coffee shop and starting. they were having conversations with other people and so they were starting to make friends and I was like this this power of communication is amazing you don't have to be in a life or death situation you can make a difference every single day in somebody's life if you're just if we're just more presence in the way that we communicate with each other touching on the loneliness thing you just talked about there on balance this is probably a really difficult question but of all the crises that you've attended and all the situations that you've negotiated,

do you feel like loneliness, do you feel like the people that you're negotiating with are, for the most part, sad, desperate people? Or do you feel like, and this is really hard to categorise them? But I think when we think of criminals in this situation, you'd think of them as being angry and bad. But is your experience, actually, that a lot of people were more desperate and sad

rather than angry and bad if you had to categorize them? Interesting. interesting question. I would say, one of my friends said this to me, she said, Nick, you're too soft to be a police officer. I would say, because I like to see the best in people, and I like to give lots of chances to people, because I think that we all mess up at some stage in our life. And it's good if somebody can help you get through that stage. I think the majority of people that I dealt with, some were in crisis because they didn't know whether they want to live or die. Some were in crisis because they had done something which they knew would have a consequence and that consequence is going to be

life changing. And some were families from of people that had been kidnapped or were caught up in a terrorist instance. So all of them were in crisis in a different way. So there was a lot, yeah, there's a lot of anger. When you're not in control, if you think of a time when you haven't been in control of a situation, that is horrible and you're reliant on other people. And when we lose control, we don't make really good decisions. We make really emotionally driven decisions. And so we lead with our emotional brain rather than our logical brain. So there are some really bad people in the world, really bad.

But there are a lot of people that make a mistake and it affects the rest of their life for a long period of time. I'm struck by the emotion that you have to bring and the empathy that you have to have. I think that's the way we'd probably be bad at is like having people that are bad people. Well, I'm wondering if you had to desensitize yourself to feeling sympathy for these people

because I guess you have to feel empathy but sympathy is quite different and a bit more of a selfish emotion, I guess. empathy did you have to desensitize yourself to that and to the people that you felt sorry for because I think that would be really that would be really hard so most people in crosses don't want you to feel sorry for them they don't no it's not if you if you fit it so imagine if you're talking to somebody who is in a in a discussion in their own mind is am I going to live or die today so they're quite low and they're depressed if I come along and and I'm very sympathetic to

that, then I keep them here. I keep them in this low depressed state and we don't make any progress. One of my mentors, he gave it a great description of it. He said, when you're talking to somebody, put your foot in one of their shoes and keep the other foot in your shoe and walk alongside them and see what the world looks like. Don't change them because our job is, you can't change anybody. We've probably all been in relationships where we've gone that I'm going to change you because I don't like this little bit about you so I'm going to change you that's not our job and we can't you can't change people but what you can do is you can influence them you can influence them and get them to hopefully see a different path on that day so that they can either get the

help that they need or you can help them get the person that's been kidnapped back is that the hardest negotiate I imagine that that would be the hardest negotiation when you're dealing with somebody who's choosing whether or not they want to live or die is that the hard was that would they be the toughest jobs you had to do. So that's an interesting. I'll give you two answers to that. Yes and no. Hardest negotiation I've ever had,

my 16-year-old daughter and my partner. Because I'm emotionally involved. Yeah. So when I'm not emotionally involved, it's much easier to see the world from a logical perspective. Yeah. But yes,

when somebody is literally standing on the edge of a building making that decision, it is hard. And how do you not get emotional? You can't, You can't really get emotional in front. No, that's a lie, actually. You can cry. You see, I have cried with other people.

You have? Yeah, I've hugged other people. I've shared that moment in time. And it's a really difficult description to give, because it's like nothing else in the world. You're in a moment with somebody. And that moment is, whether they've got a loved one that's kidnapped or you're talking to them on the edge of the building

or they're caught up in something. That moment of time for that other person. is going to be the biggest moment in that person's life. And you have the privilege. I honestly felt it was a privilege to be able to share that moment with somebody. And, yeah, I've cried with other people. I remember going to give a deaf message to somebody, not even as a negotiator, just as a police officer,

that his son had been killed in a motorbike accident. You know, it's difficult. But it's not about you. It has to be about them. So you have to be strong for the other person. So there has to be an appropriate place to do it. But, you know, I've hugged people and held people hands and you know all those human connection things those important things that's what you take

it's tall on you though yeah you know if you can't let it out there where do you let where did you let it out yeah you somehow learn and I think this is probably true of everybody in emergency any emergency service and perhaps even the armed services is you can you you put it away somewhere and you hope it doesn't come back. I'm not saying that's the right thing to do because it does come back. It comes back in a different way, shape or form. Like, I know that we're much stricter in some ways with our 16-year-old because of the things that we've seen.

Your partner's in the police. Yeah, and still is. Okay, yeah. Yeah, so much, you know, you have that. When I first left policing, I was telling this to somebody the other day, I didn't trust anybody. I wouldn't even, like, talk to anybody. And then I suddenly thought, oh, actually, everybody.

here is fine because you get to see the darker side of the world, don't you? So you're always looking for that darker side. It's something like the average human experiences between six to eight traumatic incidents in their lifetime, whereas a police officer ambulance service something like that experiences about four to 500. So it's completely different. You know, it's crisis after crisis, trauma after trauma. But you learn to manage it. you definitely become hardened to it, definitely. You have to, just self-rejection, reservation. Yeah.

I was struck when you, and I can't remember which negotiation this was, or even if it was a negotiation, but you had to tell a mom that her boy had died. I think he'd been shot. Yeah, so that was in the hospital. So, yeah, I didn't have to tell him, tell her. So what happened was, this was when I was on the arm response. unit and this young teenager had been very sadly shot and so we were providing an armed

guard in case there was any further trouble at the hospital and I remember being at the hospital and he's like whisked straight in and off he goes and I remember the mum coming in with a family member and some local police officers and she was sat I mean it was quiet area and the surgeon the surgeon came out the doors and you could tell you know it was written on his face what he was going to say and he went over and told her and it was just that human cry yeah so it's so primal it's something I will never forget yeah and you said as a human being I wanted to comfort her but you knew that as someone in uniform with a gun with a gun that wasn't your place just not the right thing and you said like my team and I just had to fade away

yeah that really yeah it struck me because it was have been so hard to walk away and yeah yeah really hard to walk away from from that but knowing that there would be somebody else that would be there yeah to take on that role yeah yeah it's incredibly you know human pain is incredible you have to be so selfless and i and i feel like it's quite thankless actually because i would never have considered that perspective how hard that must be not just to witness the crime but the human like domino that every

situation brings with it and there must be so much you know you go into policing because well because you could climb walls and do fun stuff obviously but also like you know you're led with empathy and you're doing it for the right reasons and you want to do best by people so

to have situations where you know on balance you're doing the right thing but where in the moment it doesn't necessarily feel like the right thing that must be really difficult to contend with. Yeah, definitely. And especially in the role of a negotiator. And like, you know, policing at the moment gets a bad time. And some of it is quite rightly deserved. But what it takes away from is the hundreds of thousands of good people out there that are doing amazing things.

Like as we sit here talking, there will be somebody now talking somebody out of taking their own life. Or there'll be somebody now helping a family get through. a crisis in some way, shape or form, whether that's because they're a victim of crime or whatever it might be. And yeah, you join because you want to, the majority of people join because they want to make a difference. Of course it do. And then it's, and it's, it is about human, it's about human connection and people. And that's what I loved about being a negotiator is people's stories and being able to share in those stories. were you in your training were you taught also to have an acceptance of situations that

you're not actually going to be able to change like when someone is deciding whether they're going to live or die and ultimately their mind is made up and there's nothing you can do were you taught to have an acceptance of that yeah yeah yeah very much so and then when I became the director of training I would teach the same thing is you know that But people have, we all have choice and it's not anybody's, it's not your fault if somebody does jump or take their own life

whilst you're having a conversation with them. How do you, how do you do that though? How do you not feel that it's your fault? Because of course it isn't, rationally, logically, it isn't, that person has made their decision, but how in that moment do you feel like it's not your fault? Do you tell yourself? So you don't, you can't.

Yeah. You replay everything. You replay every sentence, you replay every word. This is such a hard job you've done. Makes me want to cry. It was a great job. It was a privilege, honestly.

It was a privilege. And if you ask any negotiator out there now, they'll say the same thing. It's an absolute privilege to be able to serve people and to do what you can for them. It's just, the stakes are just so high, aren't they? And it feels like every split decision you make could have a huge impact either way, which just sounds really scary. yeah and it's interesting because you don't think about it when you're doing it do not no not too no so um because it's your norm so like um this is your norm so for me this is like much lower stakes yeah but i'm coming on the train this morning and i'm excited to be here i'm like gosh this is

amazing it's like amazing to meet you and like to be on the podcast and it's when you do something time and time again and it's your day job it becomes the norm and it's only when you come out of it and you start to speak to people. So I would talk to people. They'd come in for a cup of coffee and we'd have a conversation about something and they'd like, look at me and I'd go, what's up?

And they'd go, well, you did that? I was like, yeah? Is that not normal? And they'd like, no. I'm like, oh, okay. And especially if you live with another police officer because it's their normal as way. So you don't even really, there's like...

You do switch off at home. Yeah, yeah. So you walk through the door and you don't really talk about work unless you just want an offload but it's normal so if you say so now my partner will go out at 2 o'clock in the morning I'll be like oh what are you going to

there's some guy he's barricaded himself into his house and he's threatening to shoot everybody oh okay great good luck you know kind of thing and say walk out the door funnily enough I actually had this conversation at the weekend with a friend of mine who was in the army and he said that then

not now but when they when they'd come home from being on tour in Afghanistan, that you'd have two families and you'd have your, you'd come home and you'd want to be with your home family when you were away. And then as soon as you were with your family family, your mind would just be with your work family and be with everybody else. And that, and it's just interesting to hear that, you know, so many people are living split lives with their work and their home, but you didn't even have that distinction, really.

how then do you not when you're negotiating with your partner or your child how do you not deploy like full work mode or do you like do you negotiate like the laundry the same as like sometimes I do a lot of negotiation yeah yeah especially and sometimes I just shout like everybody else and just go will you please just do this that's nice that you can do that somewhere oh yeah yeah oh yeah it's it's it's I'm perfectly like human and fallible and could you never do that at work would you please get out of the building

like just put your stuff down yeah just let's just go no no and it's I found human behaviour is fascinating you know I could talk to somebody for eight hours 13 hours and go home be exhausted you'd walk through the door and there's like a sock by the washing machine or a cup on top of the dishwasher and that's and that sends you into apoplexy

really it's not really about that is it it's just because you're tired and you're emotional and you're like And also I have a theory that when you're at home, it's like, why do we treat the people that we love and care about the most, the worst? Because we kind of learned how to behave in public and like there's a line. And we pretty much follow that procedure. But when we get home, it's like anything go. Dave and Alex can attest to that.

I think it's about that trust, isn't it? And that not being judged and it's a safe environment that you do that. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I just, it's fascinating how we do that. You said that your hardest negotiation is with your daughter because you're emotionally involved. But in your experience, in your job, what was the most difficult negotiation that you did?

I want to say the one that left the biggest mark on you, but I guess that might not be the most difficult one. Yeah. So the most difficult one, we'll go first. Gosh, I think probably, so all of them are difficult. their own right because people are people and everybody's got a different story. So no negotiation is the same. And all of them I learned something from, every single one of them. I never left one and went, oh yeah, that was spectacular. I've always lived going, hang on, right, what happened

there and how did that work and what does the world look like from the other person's perspective as they leave here? Probably the ones that stick with me the most. And these are definitely not the best ones because they're not, because there wasn't really a massive chance to negotiate. But when I joined the hostage and crisis negotiation unit was 2012, which was the year of the Summer Olympics here in London. But it was also the year that Syria were being taken over by ISIS.

So a lot of Western journalists were being kidnapped and very sadly beheaded and killed. So that was really challenging, working with families and people that were working with families and supporting them. There was another one which is in the book and it's called 36 hours, which was the most intense 36 hours of my life, whereby somebody was kidnapped in Nigeria and we were working with the company

and trying to negotiate with a private security person who was out in country. So that came with a lot of challenging aspects from language to time difference to really intense. but I think it would be difficult to say honestly because all of them were so unique and all of them

had such a unique story yeah that's interesting that you say that you learnt something from everyone even the ones towards the end you've been doing it for is it 10 years you did it before even those ones

thought you still learnt something from it definitely I'm still learning still learning all the time you know sometimes I still have emotional conversations and after that emotional brain is settled down and I'm like hang on a sec what part have I played in this

where's my responsibility what's my belief system what's their belief system why why do we clash why did it become such a not heated but why is it having an impact on me more than a normal conversation would have sorry can I ask a technical question

in the book it said that negotiators need to be swapped out after 12 hours? Yep. What happens if it gets to like 11 hours, 45 minutes and you're finally making a breakthrough with someone? Yeah. Are you obliged to, are you legally obliged to have to swap out?

Okay, so you can stay in. Yeah. Okay, that's good. Yeah, if you're starting to build a relationship with somebody, you wouldn't just walk away and go, sorry, 12 hours is up, I'm off. Right, okay. No, yeah, we've been on much longer negotiations where you're building a relationship with them, yeah.

So, yeah, you'd never let somebody down like that. Okay, that's good. Yeah, that would be annoying if you, yeah. It's just, finally making headway. Yeah, it's just after 12 hours, we find that people are mentally exhausted. Yeah. And so you need to be the best that you can be for that other person. On a practical level.

Yeah. You're there for 12 hours. Yeah. You need a week. You do. Oh, yeah. And food. I didn't think about that.

Yeah. You'd be absolutely done for. Oh, yeah. Everywhere I go, I still do it now. I always know where the toilet is. Okay. So can you nip out if you want to go. If you're negotiating, you could just be like, don't do anything stupid.

I'll be back in five minutes. Yeah, of course you can. Because it's a human conversation, isn't it? And you might even say to them, look, we've been here for 12 hours and I don't know about you, but I am desperate for the toilet. So if you are too, let me know, and I'll show you where it is. Oh my God, so you could, and that could often, could that be the break? I don't know. I don't know.

It's never happened for me that. Really? Yeah. And generally, especially if a negotiation has gone on for a period of time, there'll be two of you there. Yeah, okay. So one of you, the other person will be there. Okay. But there's always a lead, right?

Yes. There's the two of you. There always is. Because if you're in crisis and you have two people talking to you, that's just going to do your head in. If you're in crisis and hearing a voice inside your head and now you have two other people adding to that voice, it's going to be really confusing for you. So yeah, we always stick to one person. And it might be that that one person doesn't make headway. like my negotiation in the book

with the 16-year-old girl who was in the tree with a no noose around her neck I made no headway there whatsoever we had no relationship and I was rubbish and thank you weren't rubbish I was honestly I was so paranoid about what I looked like

and that whole fear of looking stupid in front of other people there's lots of people around all those things that go with inexperience and worrying too much and getting in your own head rather than talking to somebody else

I worked with this great guy and we just had a natural conversation You talked about ego earlier, no place for ego at all in a crisis conversation. And he just said, what do you think? And I said, yeah, please. And he was awesome. I just watched him and he just built this relationship with her really quickly. And I learned, again, I just feel honored to have worked with such great people that were able to share their experience, you know.

You talk about the fear of looking stupid. And I think that's something that stops so many of us. And particularly like I'm a Londoner. Sounds like you spent most of your career here. well yeah so like there's i don't talk to strangers like i will do a lot to avoid talking to a stranger but often it is strangers that help each other the most and actually i was i didn't even speak to him actually but i was groped i don't know what the word would be on the tube once years and years ago and this guy i didn't know came over to me and he pretended that he knew me

and all he had to do was just be like oh my god hi and the person who was doing what they were doing walked away and that was that and it was like it was such an amazingly generous thing that he did and so kind and he actually just got off after that and he didn't speak to me again and he went back to the side of his carriage and like he was like there in that

moment and then he left and it was just so like wow like I was only like 18 and it was so amazing and I think about him all the time but I always think so many of us don't do that because we're so scared of looking stupid or making it worse or I don't know being perceived wrong or whatever and it's really interesting that

you feel that in your own even in this in that high stakes professional job by this is your whole thing you still have that fear of looking stupid like I don't really know what the question is except how can we get rid of that yeah how can we to be better people and be better to each other like how do we put that aside yeah so it's actually a word for it it's called social proofing social proof yeah they've done lots of studies on it around influence and persuasion And what happens is, so I don't know if you ever heard of the program called Finding Mike. So there's a book that's been written by it as well. So there's a guy who's having the worst day of his life.

And he goes on to, I think it was London Bridge, certainly one of the bridges here. And he's standing there and he's looking out. I think he might have even been the wrong side of the railings, if you know what I mean. And people walk past and walk past and walk past. And then assembly stops and says, hey, you're okay? Why don't you come with me for a coffin? He ends up going for a coffee with this guy, and he saves his life on that day, without even knowing, really, that he saved his life on that day.

And then the series is called Finding Mike, and it turns out that actually Mike isn't called Mike, he's called something else, but they find him, and they're reunited, and they have a whole conversation about it. And then, in fact, it's a TV program. And, yeah, fascinating. But what happens to us is, you're so right. And people used to, negotiators, even police officers, when they came on the negotiation course, They would always say, like, I don't want to ask them if they're going to take their own life or commit suicide because I don't want to put the fort in their head or I don't want to say something wrong that will then exacerbate. Yeah.

And we know from research that that will never happen. We also know that we watch people. So there's been lots of case studies. There was one in America where there was a female that was brutally assaulted in her house and the neighbours heard screaming. But when they looked out, they didn't see anybody else. and they thought, oh, well, if there was a problem, somebody else would phone the police and say you're like, oh, well, somebody else would do it, it's okay, I can't see anything. And it's the same as if you walk past somebody on the wrong side of the railings or somebody was

watching you. You go, well, if there was an issue, somebody else would deal with it. Yeah. And I don't want to embarrass that other person or embarrass myself. So what I found in life, and it's funny because this happened in the gym the other day. I was in the gym, and there was a guy sat on the bench, and he looked awful. and I could see other people looking at him but nobody was

and you kind of just have to take that big deep breath and go I just seem that you look quite pale and you're sweating profusely and trying to catch your breath are you okay and he said no I'm not I said right okay great and we can we can sort something out but if I was wrong he'd just say no I'm fine it's okay thank you

I always look pale than sweaty yeah I just worked out you know I'm in a gym what do you expect but yeah what's the worst that can happen right that's the worst that can happen happen yeah you'll just either get told to go away and that they're all right or they'll be like no actually thank you for stopping most people will be well thank you for caring yeah yeah it is I mean it is it is that like fear of like offering a seat to a pregnant woman for them to be like

I'm not pregnant you know it's that like yeah like stomach dropping moment yeah I've miscalculated yeah people are and Londoners I don't know why we're so so much worse than everybody else but we're just terrible yeah nice to each other yeah not really actually because we do have I do feel like there is a unity and there is a great in a crisis londoners yeah yeah i do feel that i love being a londoner yeah but on the tube like yeah we don't like i don't know there's just something something comes over us it's a culture isn't it we've been told not to talk to strangers on the tube and like keep ourselves unless you've had 10 points of lager and then you try and get the whole carriage to sing along yeah were there any points of your career as a negotiator that you

i mean say after a bad negotiation bad i don't know know how you class good or bad negotiations but where you thought I'm done I don't want to do this anymore this is too much it's too much to carry to to burden I'm done no never never never no I'd never even thought about that before really yeah there was never a time as a negotiator where I thought no that's enough can I ask as well about you talked about having to do terrorism work for negotiation with terrorism and Syria and the situation in Syria and I'm imagining in other places as well and like you say in Nigeria

like how did that differ and I'm sure massively but how did that differ with like the cases where you've got somebody who's kidnapped their own child or somebody I guess you know they're all massive they're all massive but there's something about a situation on the other side of the world with you know war crimes and what that must just feel so massive Like how did they differ?

Did you ever feel like imposter syndrome or out of your depth with that sort of thing? Yeah. And so thankfully, again, I've worked with a brilliant team. Many had experience of working with international roles. And we had an international side of our unit and that was their responsibility. So sometimes I would go and help them and sometimes they would help me. Because we're just a team of six. We did a lot.

And I learned lots from them. Yeah, imposter syndrome. So I was in Australia sitting on a, you know, the equivalent of a cobra meeting in Australia dealing with a kidnap. And I sat there looking around the room just like, oh my goodness, who am I to be here? You know, but you play an integral part because you have a team of people behind you helping you and then you can then help the people that are immediately in front of you. So it's all. But yeah, and the difference, the difference is it's very political. there's lots more that goes on behind the scenes

that you don't know about that I didn't know about at the time there's a massive time difference so they're often slower moving than the ones that you get if it's like in the UK they're a lot faster moving so yeah there's some big differences

but they're all about people that is extra frustrating though language barrier and you have to add technology and do you feel like it is about the people If it's like, when you're dealing with somebody with a suicide, for example, you're dealing with their direct humanity. But when you're dealing with, again, terrorism or ISIS, it does feel less human.

They're not, it does feel less human because you're not surely trying to get to a terrorist on a human level, being like, please don't do this. No, than that. Because they're just acting out an agenda and a political, whatever it is. So you must have to completely adjust how you, work from yeah like it must not be that human

well it's they still have they're still doing things based on their values and belief system yeah still they're still a human being unless they're a psychopath and they're definitely some psychopaths you know you only have to look at the um the four that they named as the Beatles

to look at psychopathic behaviour pretty many actual Beatles there I was like that's a huge allegation yeah no not to the actual Beatles the ones yeah yeah yeah Let me just clarify that, the guys that were in Syria doing the beheading. But in all negotiation, no negotiation will work in whatever situation unless you get collaboration. And that is the only way in negotiation will never work. So I always imagine that if you're negotiating with terrorists on a situation like that,

but you're negotiating, you've got like political exchanges. Like you give me him and I'll give you your prison, like chess. Yeah, like a game with chess. Is it more like that in a situation like that? I don't know if you can even say that. So it's more, in my personal experience, which isn't huge, thank goodness. But when you're dealing with international kidnaps, whether it's criminal or terrorist related, it's more a business transaction.

And even a kidnap in the UK is a business transaction because you're exchanging, generally it's for money or for something or another, it's an exchange of something. So it's like a business transaction So I've got so many questions on this What if it's something that you can't do What if it's like I want this I'm going to And let's say it's in the UK

Because I imagine it's quite hard to talk about like terrorism Yeah You know whatever But let's say it's in the UK Like I've taken my kid Or I've taken a kid And I want my friend released from prison Or whatever

And you just can't do it What do you do then? So again you have to find a way forward And collaboration And remember the negotiation without giving loads of secrets away, negotiation is just a tactic amongst several tactics.

Okay. Yeah. So, like, you could bring the taser out in theory. So I wouldn't bring the taser out. Yeah, but somebody might be, yeah, if somebody's kidnapped somebody, then, you know, there's a massive team that will be behind that. Yeah.

And the thing about being a negotiator is you're not the person overall in charge. You're just a tactic. Yeah, okay. So you're not making those hard decisions. Yeah. Like the prime minister will have to make if it's an international kidnap or whether it's the gold commander

will have to make that decision. And just jumping back with that or with any of it. What's that feeling like when it does work and you get like a kidnap-y back again? Yeah. It's the coolest thing in the world. It's the best feeling in the world. It's the best feeling in the world.

So there's a chapter in the book that talks about, I think his name just Ashley in the book, because obviously everybody's name and all the places are changed to protect people. But he was so anti-police when I met him. And we went on a rollercoaster of a journey throughout the night. And thankfully he got his brother back, his brother was injured. But he just hugged me at the end of it. You know, he'd been fighting me the whole way,

literally talking about leaving, telling me that we were rubbish, all sorts of language used towards me and about policing because he was worried about his brother so the way to take it out is to take out on the people that are trying to help you and frustrated because things take much longer than you know he want them to and his brother was being hurt

but at the end of it he hugged me he hugged me and his brother was back there is no feeling like it a complete stranger a complete stranger who you spend a window of time with in the most poignant moment of their life you get the privilege of sharing that

and then afterwards when it's done and it's just pure relation and just you know the satisfaction is it's like an adrenaline kick you know I can't imagine anywhere else well actually no I'd say that but you know when I have conversations with people in my coffee shop and they're having a tough day

and if they walk away and say thank you for for listening to me, I'm like, yes. You are welcome. Yes, that's an amazing feeling. Yeah. Did you keep in touch with any of them? No. No, no, very much separated.

God, you must have saved so many lives and those lives have just carried on, you don't know. Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. How many negotiations do you think you did? Oh, gosh. Over the 10 years.

Oh, I don't. Honestly, I wouldn't be able to tell you quite, a few and quite a few I was a negotiator coordinator for right um yeah so quite quite a few not as many as some people yeah some people I've got like so much experience but I'm lucky to be able to work with them and then they share with their stories and then you're like oh yeah I get that I can see that I can see what happened there yeah and that was a real another honor really is is to have been the director of UK training to then share your experience for you from your stories with those other people.

On a practical level, how do you do this without crying? How do you argue with people? How do you negotiate with people without getting... When you get emotional? Yeah, how do you not? Okay, so there is, imagine your brain is split into two. Yeah. One side isn't your emotional brain and one side is your logical brain.

There's a great book that describes this called The Chimp Paradox. And your emotional brain is five times stronger than your logical brain. So you're already fighting that. Now imagine that every conversation you have is the tip of an iceberg. And underneath that iceberg, that's full of your experiences, your values and your beliefs and your everything, your opinions and wanting to be heard and all those things that go with being a human being. So when somebody challenges what you believe to be true, let's call it an opinion,

immediately your emotional brain is going, oh, I need to protect you. I need to jump in now and protect you because I'm worried something's going to happen and that's what happens and so your emotional brain kicks in before you even know it's kicked in and before you know what's happening you're having that emotional frustrated angry conversation

now I read I can't remember which book it was in I want to say it was the stroke of inspiration which was written by a lady who was a stroke specialist and she had a stroke so she was able to write about what was happening to her brain but I think it's 90 seconds if you can keep quiet for 90 seconds it will settle your emotional brain down

and so you won't just go blah and have this big because most of our conversation is blur it's unconscious communication and when we learn to be conscious and present and to recognise when people ever come to me for coaching or training I always say keep a journal at the end of the day

just think about the conversations you've had and if they haven't gone well think about what was it about you that was triggered because you can't change anybody else because I went over to do the FBI course which was amazing and met this amazing guy who'd done so many

he negotiated with the Boston bomber he had ever seen the film Captain Phillips yeah no yeah so he he was the one that was training the or talking to the guy from the Navy who was talking to the pirates so he's got so much experience and he said this to me he said nick you cannot control what other people do

the only thing you can ever control is how you respond and that's hard because our emotional brain will kick in and that and that's hard but it's about reflection so reflect about it afterwards and then think okay so what part did i play what were my beliefs what were my opinions this is why people say don't talk about religion and politics you say such emotional conversations And there's no time, you can't really say, just give me 90 seconds. No, that's right, yeah. You know, every time it's your turn to speak. Yeah, but what you can do is you can use reflective language and just listen.

Yeah. And that will buy your brain time to settle down. So can I have an example? Because I actually think this is like a really tangible advice, particularly at the moment when everything is so polarised. Yeah. where like I'm learning I'm learning to just like bite my tongue off all the time can we have an example of reflective language that people can use actually in their

real lives when they're having a contentious conversation or whatever yeah so there's there's two things you can either label the emotion that they're showing to you or summarize the conversation at the end so my biggest challenge to people is listen to people as if you have to summarize at the end and if you really want to push yourself out of your zone summarize at the end okay and you can do it in a way that you make it about them so you could do it a little bit like this so listening listening listening yeah and you go right i can hear this is really important to you so i just want to make sure i've got this right right and then you summarize oh that's so good yeah yeah um i'd melt on the spot i die yeah what if someone said that too

yeah yeah yeah and the and the reason it works is because it helps the other person to feel valued and validated and listen to does it not make them feel of it stupid yeah it make me feel embarrassed. Do you think? Well, it depends what they said. If I was summarising what you just said, back to you. Actually, I guess it would depend what the subject matter was. But I think if I had come at you defensive and maybe slightly aggressive because my emotional

brain was triggered. And then you fed it all back to me. I'd probably be a bit like, wish I'd have my 90 seconds. But you can do it in a kind, caring way. You don't have to do it in a. You don't have to do it. in a horrible way. So if we just use a conversation I had over the weekend

much to my own frustration, I actually handled it so well by basically saying nothing. But I was sitting next to somebody who was politically very unaligned and unfortunately it was like boomer bingo. Like we just hit every single one. It's like, oh God, why is this happening? Every contentious issue of the moment came up.

But one of them being about, for example, Harry and Megan. And this person was very angry about Harry and Megan. And I was trying to be very just like, okay we disagree but like okay whatever and all I could think

to do was say why do you care like why do you why does it matter so much because I was just I don't know I was just trying to make it go away

and then I was trying to make them realise that they were maybe a little bit angry about something that didn't really matter I don't think it was a great tactic anyway because then they just because I do

and then it just got even angry and I was like oh okay yeah what if I'd have got to the end of that if they'd have got to the end of their thing could I just have gone

so I really I'm hearing that you don't like them and this This is why you don't like them. And then do you just full stop? Yeah. Or you can say, have I got that right? Yeah.

And they'll either go, you've got this bit right. Or you've got that bit but not that bit right. And then they'll tell you. Or they'll go, no, you haven't got any of that right. And they'll tell you again. Okay. Yeah. And that's generally what happens.

In a situation like that in your line of work, the point of that would be to end the conversation? No, the point of it is to find out more about you and what motivates you. Okay. So if you had treated that conversation differently and gone, oh, this is interesting because I bet this isn't just about Megan and Harry, there's something else going on here because there's a strong opinion about, but why is that strong opinion? It's not about them. There's something else.

Oh, I don't think that would have gone down there. But you could have just found out a little bit more about them. Yeah, I didn't know this person very well. Yeah. I guess I could have done that would have been quite interesting. And then you could have just made it into almost like a challenge for yourself. of how much can I find out about this person. Okay, so it's a bit more like curiosity is a good thing to have.

Yeah. Yeah, listen to understand rather than to chip in with your opinion. Yeah. Yeah, because I, yeah, I knew I wouldn't, as I was listening to them, I didn't really know them that well, I was just sitting next to them at dinner. And I realized I didn't know them, I wasn't, there wasn't any point in arguing. Yeah. Because I wasn't going to change their mind.

No, exactly. You can't change. Our job is not to change people. Our job is to try and work out what's going on for people. Wow. And why they have these strong beliefs. Yeah. God, you must be so patient.

Sometimes. Yeah. But yeah, until there's a sock like in the washing machine. You know, I'd love to sit here and tell you I nail it every conversation, but that would be a lie. But you've nailed a lot of conversations. Hopefully I've nailed the important ones. Yeah.

And sometimes not so important ones at home. And your book attests to that. Thank you. And we're going to leave the link to the book in the show. Thank you very much. Do you have any other questions? I urge it. Loads. Do you want to ask a couple of them before we let Nicky go?

I think we've kept you for long enough, but I do urge everyone to go and buy your book because it is so good. Thank you. So good. Can I just give a big shout out to my ghost writer Liz Shepard who did a, we were talking before, but she did a sterling job of getting everything out of my head

and into a format that is very readable and hopefully people learn a lot. Very compelling. Yeah. Thank you so much, Nikki. No, thank you for having me. It's been great. So interesting

And I am going to Endeavour to listen more 90 seconds That's what I'm going to have So many pauses Oh thank you Thank you for having me Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network

Thank you.