Should I Delete That? - Emma Barnett will not be underestimated

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

Emma Barnett is a broadcaster, journalist and author who we admire hugely. She is one of the BBC’s most high-profile journalists who is currently part of the presenting team on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme - as well as previously hosting Women’s Hour and Newsnight. Alongside her incredible broadcasting career, Emma has also become a powerful advocate for women’s health - having chosen to speak up about her very difficult IVF journey as well as struggling with both endometriosis and adenomyosis. Emma told us about why she chose to bring her private reality into light to advocate for women’s health and to disrupt the assumptions that we may hold about ‘serious’ news presenters. We also spoke to Emma about interviewing Kate Bush, what happened when she called out Rory Stewart for lying on air and why she is concerned about women feeling the need to be liked all the time. Experiences that have reshaped lives. Bold questions, unexpected truths, lots of tea... Emma Barnett invites you into her world for deeply human conversations. You can listen to episodes on BBC Sounds HERE. New episodes of Ready to Talk with Emma Barnett are available every Friday on BBC Sounds.Follow @emmabarnett on InstagramIf you want to get in touch you can email us on [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Elliott MckayVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Sarah EnglishMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What I've always been intrigued by is to disrupt what is A, expected of women and B, what's expected of me in serious news and politics with a capital P. And I think women's lives and women's health are just as important as what we deem to be the news. Hello and welcome back to you. Should I delete that? I'm M. Clarkson. I'm Alex Light. And I am so excited for today's guest. We are speaking to a journalist. who I have loved and listened to for so long. And this was one of the surrealest things when you meet a woman or a person

who you have heard speaking for years speaking to you. I felt like I'd ordered a cameo. It was incredible. I could see the fan girl in your eyes. I was so happy for you. I obviously love this industry. I love the media. I love news.

And I am particularly admiring of female journalists in this space, because I do think they operate in a man's world. And I think what Emma Barnett has done has been so remarkable in that she has spoken very publicly recently about her IVF, her end of metriosis, about maternity leave. She has spoken about, quote, unquote, women's issues, while simultaneously maintaining her incredibly impressive career and it's been really cool to watch it not be detrimental necessarily to the political side of what she does rather I don't know sort of an extra string to the bow and it was really cool to talk to her about that and I just feel I could have actually done this for hours you literally I was like and we've got it wrap up you just did you just said our final line

you're like okay shut up no it was very exciting to dig into that that tension of, of, like, operating, like existing, navigating this man's world and then talking about, like, women's issues and how she does it, like, so unapologetically. It's really cool, isn't it? Which I think was what struck me that I wasn't really expecting. So that was really interesting. And I was going to mention her hair, but I'm not going to do that. That's a terrible thing to have said. I couldn't take my eyes off her hair. You couldn't, do we fair. No. Al's in love. We're both in love, just with different bits. you've got her hair, I've got the brain.

They're like, Emma's going to come and live with us forever. She was just wonderful. She was wonderful. My favourite part, though, I think is the challenge that a heart-hitting journalist is to you and I in the people-pleasing department. Speaking to her about these uncomfortable moments, about the challenge, about asking the question, both of us are like quaking in our boots. I felt, oh, me and Emma on the same sofa, I felt the sofa tens up.

It was like, we both were like, just go, oh. Squint. What do you call it when you quench your butch? You do not quench your butt cheeks. What is it? Clench. Brilliant. I've felt.

We've got Emma Barnett of the Today program on our show. Can I have a redo? We've started our intro talking about quenching our butchies. Can I have a redo? Absolutely not. Shit. I've talking about her hair and now quenching our butt. This is awful.

All I can hope. I am not deserving of Emma Barnett. Me neither. And all I can hope is she's not listening to this. I'm so sorry. Please don't listen to the intro. Emma, don't listen. No one listen.

No, just listen. No. Just listen to the rest. Ignore us completely. They cut this all out. If you could just mute our bits and just let her speak like a monologue for the next hour, we'd appreciate it. She's great. We love her. I'm really love. So I fear you want her to replace me on this sofa. No, no one could replace you are. Thank you. Correct answer. But if anyone could, it would be able to.

Without further ado, here she is. Hello. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you for having me. I already said that's not fair. I'm so excited. I mean, I've listened to Women's Hour forever. I followed you as a journalist forever. And there is something that I find lovely about hearing interviewers be interviewed.

And although it's a little bit intimidating to interview an interviewer, it's also really, it's really fun. And I also, the work you've been doing in the last couple of years, particularly after your book came out, maternity service, I thought, And I've always thought this about women's hour and about what you do. It's so incredible to see women with these platforms in these perhaps typically male-dominated environments be able to succinctly raise such crucial awareness for their real lives and their home lives and their sides of them that is motherhood while simultaneously smashing their careers. And I just think it's really cool to watch, like someone just do very well in both those areas. That's very kind of you.

So, thanks. No, thank you. I love that. And, you know, now I'm at the Today program, I can do it more. Yeah. Not just a woman's hour where you expect perhaps some of those subjects as well. So thank you. And also I think it's good to be interviewed when you are an interview,

a bit like a doctor should be a patient. One should be subjected to what you do. Do you think? Yeah. Does it make it uncomfortable? I think it's actually a very good exercise and I'm getting more comfortable with it. But I'm also intrigued how people think about questions and how they ask them. But I also just want to be part of the conversation.

I do enjoy chatting. You know, that's a big part of it for me. Yeah. I'd say that probably makes you still, I think there's a power thing with an interviewer. And it's like, if you're still thinking about how we're thinking, then that's definitely like still at how you operate. Do you know what I mean?

It's still like you have to understand it. Yeah, but I also relax and enjoy things at the same time. You know, I want to be in the moment. And I, you know, my husband always says if we go to, if we go somewhere and we're having conversations and it's not going very well, you can see when I go in broadcast mode. because I'll just launch gauntlet into the middle of it conversationally

and just see what happens. He's like, oh, God, here we go and go. So I won't be doing that, don't worry. What kind of gauntlet? Yeah. If somebody's just, I don't know, said something that I just don't think is really what they think. I'll just be like, that's bullshit, isn't it?

What do you actually think? Or, you know, or. Well, you say that? If it's really dull and I don't really care about. No, no, I'm joking. No, I'll just be like, really? Like, you know, there's a not just accepting necessarily vibe. Because I think we are, listen, you're both parents.

as well. And when you get to go out and you've organized a babysitter, you know, you are looking for even more than you were before, I think, for it to be good and kind of a good connection. And I'm really crap at small talk and I like to get to it. And yeah, probably do kind of want to go there wherever there is. So that's, that's me. I feel that in my bones. Like, don't waste my time. Do you know what I mean? We don't need to talk about the weather. Tell me about your periods. Yeah. Tell me something weird. Let's overshare. Yeah. Yes.

Oh, I find so much comfort in that. This wasn't how we like planned to open an interview, but can I ask you? Like speaking of interviewing, I really want to know what your most memorable interview is. Oh my gosh. I have many. I was thinking because I've just launched a podcast. It's called Ready to Talk and we can get to that hopefully. But I was trying to add up how many people I have interviewed and it's definitely more than a thousand.

But we just have to leave it at that point because I don't know. because before joining the Today program, a year and a half ago, I was on air 10 o'clock in the morning, four days a week, before that five, for her children, you know, for 10 years. And you're doing three hours of live broadcasting. And then in the evening I used to do news night sometimes. So if each program has however many guests, it's a lot of people. But there's favorite or very memorable moments for different reasons.

I did love getting Kate Bush to come and talk because she does. doesn't do many interviews and she's actually talked to me twice and hearing an amazingly creative person open up a little bit and talk is very, very special and that they're talking to you and to your listeners is really, really memorable. Through to, I don't think I'll ever forget interviewing Nazanine Zagari Ratcliffe when she was released after a very long time in jail, in Iran and separate from her beloved. husband and child and, you know, it was a hugely important personal story, but it also had this huge political backdrop that was incredibly important to communicate how she had been

used as a porn and what had gone on in, you know, that notorious jail and how she'd survived that. You know, through to interviewing the now queen. I did a, during lockdown, I, you know, as she was then, as a Duchess, Camilla, was the guest editor of my five live program and we were socially distanced at a very grand table at Clarence House. It was really good social distancing at the end, one end and the other end. And, you know, actually talking to her about the range of causes that are very close to her heart. And there was this incredible moment where the mother of a woman who was killed by her partner was murdered, messaged in because she was the reason that she's now so

involved with domestic abuse charities and that, you know, live broadcasting has a whole rhythm and spontaneity to it and you never know who's going to get in touch. And it was really moving to then bring them together on actually on women's up a couple of years later. So there's lots of moments through to, I'll just say a very lighthearted one. It wasn't an interview per se, but when I was on five live, I used to do their 10 a.m. to 1 p.m. slot, which was a great program. It was a very febrile time in some ways in the country because of Brexit, the first election of Trump, the prerogation of Parliament. We was on air with Margaret Atwood when that happened. I didn't know what the word prerogue meant. None of us did. We had to

look it up, but Margaret Atwood did, so that was a relief. Anyway, one of the programs that I'll always remember is one of our listeners got in touch. And she'd got stuck in the kitchen. Her door had jammed. And could we get her out by the end of the program became the challenge. So interweaving through the new Brexit deal and whatever else I was doing that day was a woman who was trying to get to her pub lunch with her mates and could we get her out? And amazingly, the community comes together, which is what I love about live and anyone who's listening and all life being there. Someone was listening and realized that they did know how. And it involved a knife and an ice cream tub and the doorknob. And I still don't know how it worked. But he explained it to her and she was released. Oh, that's so cool. So from, you know, I don't know, pop royalty, political prisoners and a woman who wants to go to the pub lunch, there is quite a range that comes to mind when you're in that zone of asking that question and trying to answer it well. How do you do it? And this is an annoying question because all the questions I'm going to ask you, I wouldn't ask a man, so sorry.

Okay, we'll just get the internalised misogyny out of the way. I've just, I've just, I've said the thing now. So when I say the other things, you are going to know that, like, why I'm saying that. But you've bought, your team's bought me a hot chocolate, so I'm thrilled. Yeah. We told you had nice hair. So like, we're all, you know, we're on a, you do have really. You do have really.

Thank you. Love that. So, sorry. But you, okay, so you have, and I never know how people do this anyway. You have had to do all of this life, which quite frankly sounds terrifying to me. And you do these incredible interviews. You are there for throughout stories that you maybe don't necessarily understand. you're always learning on the job.

You've got to be so professional all the time. But you have also opened up in recent years about the fact that you've gone through, you've been going through a lot over the years. The 30s have been wild. You've gone through IVF and you've gone through that many times and over many years. And that's kind of been like,

you've also had endometriosis and adenomyosis. Yeah, don't worry. No one knows anything about it. The practicing best, I can't get it. It's really hard. But you've been, and like, within that, there's a lot of suffering, there's a lot of pain, there's a lot of hormones, there's a lot of grief,

there's a lot of feelings. There's a lot of appointments, but you still just keep showing up at work in these environments that are tough. And I know women all over the place are doing it. Doctors are doing it. Lawyers are doing it. Journalists are doing it. Women do it. But like, how do you do it? Like for you, how have you been able to do both those things? And how has it felt entwining them now as you, as you have in more recent years? So when we started trying for a baby, I kind of knew it wasn't going to work, but I didn't know what was wrong with me. Because I've always felt there's something. was wrong. My periods and around them, you know, just didn't feel quite right. And I remember saying to my husband when I was 29 when we started, this isn't going to work. And he was like, what, a lovely way to start this whole process. I've been with him since university. And a year into trying and nothing happening and coming off the pill. So my natural cycles had reared that ugly

head. It was a friend who said to me, I think you've got endometriosis. She was a doctor. And I didn't even know the word. And I was so embarrassed. I'd been the women's editor at the Telegraph. And I'd set up this section. I was really into making sure I'd listen to women properly. And then I read the website, the NHS definition, and every light bulb sort of switched on. I thought, oh my God. And then very wonderfully, a woman in the NHS, a doctor said, for God's sake, just try having IVF. Once I'd actually got the diagnosis, so I then did get a diagnosed. And I had it and it worked. and I spoke about all of that once it was done a little bit. I mean, I wrote a book anyway that was interested about periods

and women's health and women's lives. But then when I dared to want another child, you know, the temerity of the infertile to try again, and I say that because there's lots of people who also sadly feel it's their right to get in touch and say to me you should just be grateful for what you have when I was in that process. And you're nodding, knowingly.

I'm so sorry you're in the know of it. because it's very hard. It was locked down. I was in an NHS setting. I was paying because I'd had my free round to have our son. And I was very alone with this because my husband wasn't allowed to come to the hospital. And on the fifth round, I got pregnant. And it was, you know, it was just incredible after all this time and all this pain and all this trying. And like you say, lots of types of pain. And I lost the baby. And something in me, just kind of thought, you've got to talk about this before it's okay. It might not be okay. I might not get the baby. And it would still be okay, of course, but it might not end how

you would like it to end. And I realized when I was at Women's Hour and I was at news night at the same time, but actually I had this position that if I could, A, disrupt the narrative around talking about something as it's going wrong live, and I am very much a live broadcaster. and try and be in the moment, that would be very honest, I hoped, and it would speak to something. And you can only write and communicate about things, as they are at that moment, in that way. But also, I have insurance that other women do not have.

I placed a bet that working at the longest running women's program in the world, I wouldn't be fired for saying I was actively trying for a baby. Most women do not have that position. So two nights after, two or three nights after losing, the baby and having having the baby, I had to go to hospital to have it removed. I sat on the rug and I made three decisions that night in the living room and I came down, my husband came down the next day. I'd barely slept and he was like, what? I said, I've made three decisions. He was like, oh no, well, what's this? And I was like, one, I'm going to go on

Michael McIntyre's the wheel. He was like, sorry, what? I was like, sorry, sorry, what? I don't understand. I hadn't decided whether we would go again, by the way, on IBF at this point. But my doctor was also in my mind because he was like, can you not do anything stressful? And obviously he then sees me spinning around in a giant sort of wheel, jacuzzi thing with no water with loads of other people trying to win someone money just a few weeks later. But yeah, I'd been asked and I just needed to do something that was totally different. Two, I was going to quit Newsnight. I'd done it for three and a half years. I'd learned a great deal, but I felt I'd reached a good place with that. Again, not necessarily for me do at that point or people would

expect, but it's how I felt. And three, I would write this piece. And I would write this piece. And I I wrote this article. It went on the front of the Times, a Saturday news, Saturday magazine and the paper. And it was entitled, five rounds of IVF, one miscarriage and no baby. And it is still the piece that women and men come and talk to me about three years on. And I wrote a newsletter. I still write it now. And it's about all sorts of, it's called trying. It's on substack. And I write all about the trying elements of life and how we do it. But I, in answer to your question, I just thought I needed to give a little bit of background is I needed at some point to bring my private reality out and use it in a way and also be pretty journalistic at times

about it as well. And I should say I did go on to have what was definitely going to be the final round and that is our daughter and she is now nearly three. So, you know, that in itself is a whole of the story why I made that decision to go one more time and it's about friendship and it's about a woman I was doing IVF in the end alongside who lived down the road. But I think it's what I've always been intrigued by, is to disrupt what is, A, expected of women and B, what's expected of me in serious news and politics with a capital P. And I think women's lives and women's health and all of our actual lives,

the headlines of our lives, are just as important as our political leaders, the latest thing that's been leaked, what we deem to be the news. And I think playing with that and disrupting that and taking that as just as seriously is sort of where I like to sit. That's really cool.

It feels like that as a consumer. But I always... I don't know. I think it's, you know, you have to unpick your own misogyny, don't you, and your own bias and your own... because I've never been able to see

and it's really, really in recent years when it's like, I think it's probably taken me having my own kids and watching my friends have kids and having to work through being, I was very ill when I was pregnant, watching you have to work through your IVF. Like the reality is that like women do are just working through it. And I can't work out how it sits for me

and I really welcome the challenge that it poses where it does feel so different to the news and politics and it's so wonderful to see people be such a... like break to be such a force in that space. Do you know what I mean? Which I feel is what you've done writing maternity service. It's like, you know, write the book that you've just released. Yeah. Writing that, to acknowledge this as not just like it's another thing because it has felt like women's burden that we just quietly carry. And there's something just really powerful about watching you just say the thing, you know, say it. Well, also try very hard to

find the right words for all stories and all of realities. And I think applying that same sort of rigor and importance, you know, is, is, it's worthy of that, these experiences that have often not, you know, so you mentioned maternity service. It's a very mercifully short book for those who have been or are going to go through or are going through maternity leave. But to me, service was a much better description of it. And it helps me dig deep. I think duty is something we don't talk a lot about. And, you know, when I chop the ninth pepper of the week or the, you know, the 10th cucumber and, you know, you sort of feel yourself deadened by some of the mother load. I was trying to capture how it actually felt to leave all you knew of your life and go into the

portal and this liminal land. And because it didn't actually exist as a portrait. There's loads of portraits of, there's increasingly, I should say, not loads, but increasingly many wonderful and interesting portraits of motherhood. But this particular space of, you know, in a country like ours, which has actually only had some form of leave just post-World War II, you know, what we expect women to do to completely leave what they had before, freeze it in aspect, perhaps, and then come back to it, completely change. We know our brains change. We know the experience changes us and to maybe even feel the same again.

You know, it's something to explore. So I wanted to capture it again while I was in it. So I wrote it in snatched moments when our daughter was napping. It's not been written before, and so I wanted a contributor and put it there. But equally, I just, so on the first episode of Ready to Talk, I did something that I wasn't necessarily sure I was going to do, but I've just, you know, because I like to have the full female biological, physiological experience.

I have just talked about the fact that I didn't realize I had started perimenopause. So after all these hormones and IVF, I then came back to my natural cycles, which were back with a vengeance, with endometriosis, And I just wasn't feeling quite right. So, you know, the podcast, which I'm really proud of and, you know, is weekly and has been designed and is coming from a place of exactly what I just said to you about the headlines of people's lives and people talking about things that, you know, they are now ready to talk about and how it's changed them and how it's changed their view. And I slightly started with myself. And the response to it is not me just promoting. it although please subscribe ready to talk wherever you get it um no but this is you know i was reading

more messages this morning because one of the clips went particularly viral between me and kate thornton who was the guest you know you can't talk about something if you don't have language and shared language and if things haven't been described publicly there isn't a common way of expressing it and i think that is what's very powerful about the era that we're living in and you know you've both on your platforms with various issues that are closer to your heart. And I think it's really important. Was there a part of you, when you decided to talk about periods and IVF and maternity leave, was there a hesitation?

Was there any part of you that was aware that this could be a risk? No, I actually really learned into it. I mean, maybe that's because I quite like certain risks. And not all risks, I don't like to do extreme sport. but I do quite like disrupting the rhythm of things and going for it and I feel possibly strangely comfortable about it because I feel it shouldn't be but it's still quite a political thing to do in itself and I'm not saying it's not without risk and don't go me wrong

you know the first meeting I had about my book period it's about bloody time was with a very well-spoken gentleman who could only call it lady business Couldn't say period the whole way through. And he said, you know what, I'm going to buy this book, but only because I want the second book, which is your real book about politics, news. And I was like, oh, no, I don't want to write that. Thanks very much.

I mean, I'm not saying I'd never write something along those lines. I don't know, but... This is the real book. This is my book. This is the one I want to write right now. And I can only do things if I care, you know, if I'm curious enough, if I'm interested. So, no, I didn't.

feel there was a risk. Have you always been really sure of yourself? In what way? Of who you are and what you believe in. Yeah, until perimenopause came and muck the tits off of me. But like, that's a remarkable thing as you've gone through what you had, like, you've gone through your. And IVF also plays absolute roulette with who you are. But like, I love her changes you. And you've been through so, like, you've, you've, you've, you've been doing this for so long. Do you, do you never have, never have wobbles? Even when you've got people saying stupid things to you, which you probably do all the time because you do live broadcasting. Do you never wobble? Genuinely, I, although it's a, you know, it made you

laugh, I have felt pretty, pretty secure in who I am for, yeah, for, I mean, obviously, yeah, there are days and there are things. And there are obviously moments that are, you know, pretty well recorded where interviews have blown up and things have happened and you get a load of heat and I'm not saying those things are easy or normal. I'm often then on to the next thing because of live broadcasting or whatever the agenda is. What's quite good about my industry is you have to move on quite quickly. I think it's very hard when you have personal health things and when you have issues around making your family or getting diagnosed, of course. I do feel what those experiences have also taught me is there is a strong sense of self inside.

And I do, and I'm learning, I'm trying to learn to listen to, you know, my body and what I actually need versus just powering on all the time. How are you doing it that? Great. I'm fine. I'm so fine. Obviously I want to ask you both a lot of questions, but I'm resisting the urge because it's not that way around. it must be hot i mean because broadcasting live broadcasting interviewing people like that's not it's not a job where you can go in and be like oh do you know what i'm just going to lay low on this one today i'm just going to like tap a few keys on my computer so when you are going through things like ibf or like big things in your life like that's very difficult to then go on air and you also you can't you can't switch off while you're interviewing someone either

But, you know, that's... No, I wouldn't recommend that, actually. Not conducive to a good interview, probably. I remember returning from my first tour of Loving Duty of Maternity Service to Five Live. And I think it was, yeah, it was just a few days back. And you're right, you can't slink in behind the desk, kind of hope. No one notices and ease yourself back in, you know, you're straight back on air. And I think a few days after that, I was actually interviewing the prime minister.

Theresa May as she was then. And reading the latest, the first draft of the Brexit withdrawal deal, if I remember correctly, on the floor of the bathroom, having had five wines, not knowing I was expected to do it at the next morning, because it was quite last minute. So there was literally chippy chips next to me and a deal to read. So that was, that was interesting. But a few days after coming back, I also will remember the moment. And I think it's a good thing to share, which is, you know, you want to know if you're still you, if you're still firing on everything, if you still feel the same, if you still do the job. And I always tell women, of course you can. And of course you do. It's just knowing it and feeling it, like you say. And we had Rory Stewart on the

program. And I was interviewing him. He was international development, I believe, at the time. He was in the department in Diffid. And he came on the program. And it was just that week, it was leading up to when I was going to interview Mrs. May. But he, he, he, had been chosen as the minister to defend the, as it was then, like the first reveal of this proposed Brexit deal. But it had just been released that morning. And he came on the radio and he said something like 82% of the British public support the deal. He was just talking. And I went, how can 80, it's not, it's not been shared. It's not been published. How can 82% of the British public support this deal? And he went, something like, and you know,

people can go and look at the clip, I'm just producing a figure to support what I believe. And I went, so you're lying. And it exploded. Like the world seemed to go completely at a different pace. And to his credit, he apologized straight away for making up a number. And like making up a statistic, you know, there was no polling. There was nothing. It just happened like three minutes earlier and he was dragged onto the radio.

And he and I have actually had a bit of a thing since where we've, been on stage together, and he talks about that moment being when he realized he had been so far dragged into, not dragged into, but pulled into the machine of how politics can work and how it can all work, that he just lied. You know, he just said this thing. And then it goes on the evening shows in America, fake news has spread to Britain and there's a clip of me, like, you know, however. I don't even know if I'm in it actually, but there might have been a frozen photo because I don't know if there was like webcams that day or whatever. And Rory's face and the clip and, you know, came home.

My husband's like, you've had a busy day at work, haven't you? That's just sort of. And I was thinking, you know, it was interesting, like, obviously seeing the response and his response. And, you know, he really did apologise very quickly and all of that. And it was all quite different to how things can be sometimes. And I also just thought, I'm back. I still got it. I'm back.

I was listening. And I heard. And I was like, you know, if there's not a better day at work in my line of work. But, you know, for all women, that you are completely fine. It's just you've got to be in a situation. And, you know, I'm very aware of lots of women losing their jobs while they're away. You know, not off, away. So you've got to be in that situation.

And I always want to share something like that because I know it's extreme and it's public. But it's also a good example of exactly what is going on, which is you are still you, even if you feel a bit different. Can I take us on a tangent? because I'm just desperate to ask. As a chronic people pleaser, how do you feel about those confrontations like when they happen? Are you?

Are you? Are you not? No, you can't be in your line of work, surely. I felt my anxiety spike when you said that you said to him. What do you mean? Like, that's not real. I know I should, but I probably wouldn't. I just feel like, okay, God.

82%? That's a good number making 83. I'm right there with you. Like, yeah, I supported too. We'd be terrible. Oh, got me. Yeah. I love Roy Stewart. I'd be all over it. I'd be like, yeah, whatever you say, buddy.

Oh, it's so, I'd be, that's a problem. He didn't have the rest of politics. Yeah, well, yeah, no, I don't think I probably loved him then. Didn't know him. Didn't know if you could. Who is? This is a problem. I'm so, I'm so weak. I'm literally the most malleable person ever. Someone tells us like, I'm like, you know, it is my job, right? That, no, that particular setting is work. But do you not, do you feel, like, do you get the adrenaline? You know what I'll just described. Do you get that like, oh, you get adrenaline. Of course you do in all sorts of. And if it really, you know, there's a big, like, about my where it's certainly, you know, things only start to maybe escalate if the question's not

being answered. So it's not like you go straight in and boom, you know, that was in response. We've been having quite an interesting conversation until that point and then that goes and then that goes. And it kind of happens as it's happening. But I mean, I made a joke before about maybe sometimes I throw a bit of a garner into conversation, but I'm not like that off air. You know, I obviously still pretty crap at small talk, as I said to you, but I, you know, I'm trying to be honest, but I, and I want to hear how people really feel about things, but I, on air, I'm not, you know, it's not a friendship scenario. You know, we're in a professional kind of conversation and they're on there to sell a lot of the time, whether it's to sell an idea, whether it's to

give a thought. And, you know, you're there to try and channel what people listening are screaming at the radio or saying or wanting you to ask. And I think, yeah, I have to put a bit of divide between what is probably normal and isn't because you know radio and television it's conversation on steroids to me when it's at its best it's not got the flim flam a lot of the time in it yeah i don't know yeah you can't tickle balls can you've got to be business did you ever come out of interviews and go fuck I should have said that. I should have asked that.

I didn't challenge this. You think things and, yeah, because it's live as well. You know, you haven't got a chance. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's different. That's, you know, rethinking about something. You never know what they're going to say.

You've got to be quite fleet of foot. Yeah, of course. For sure. It's terrifying. Yeah, I suppose it is. But I suppose I also get used to it, you know, after many, many years. You know, you keep flying the plane and you have more. more experiences, and then there's still new ones all these years on. When you wake up in the

morning, do you wake up like, I don't know, I want to understand. Like, I guess if you, if we work on the logic that like excitement and anxiety come from the same place, do you think you'd lean more towards the, like, you're going to just, it's exciting, you're feeling it as excitement rather than anxiety for the things that scare you? Do you think you run into them or run away from them in that sort of sense? Or run into them, always, always run into them. And do you feel good when you're running or do you feel scared when you're running? I feel I have to. Is there someone behind you? Or do you feel like you need to keep going forwards? Do you feel like you're being chased or like you're like, I just feel it's, I have to always do what I'm meant to do. Like

it's a sort of, I'm not trying to, I'm just trying to. No, no, no, I'm super interested. You know, um, there's lots of times where you don't have to ask the question that might be the question that it will cause if normal situation, a quite an awkward moment or and I just would feel like I didn't do my job. So yes, you can always think afterwards, I could have done that better, I could have asked this if I'd had a bit more time, maybe she'd listened a bit longer to that,

because you've also got the clock working against you, which is, you know, and the job I'm in now is really set. You've got to, on Radio 4, if people listen to that, you listen to this, I'm sure there's some crossover. You know, there are the pips at the top of the hour, and if you crash those before the news, it just sounds really rubbish. So you just want to make sure you get in your questions

and you can sound a bit trying to get it out and you always want to make it not feel like that. But I think that's different to dodging the question that's hard. So I feel like it's duty as well a bit. Like I need to, I've been trained and I need to go there, even if it's not comfortable. Do you ever just want to be comfortable? Yeah, like I take my bra off the minute I get home.

It's like physically disintegrate. No, do I, I like putting people at ease. as well, though. I do a lot of interviews that are not at all like what I've just said. And I really, you know, I've spoken to people at some of the most sensitive and delicate times of their life. And that's about extreme comfort, if I could put it like that. You know, I was interviewing a lovely couple earlier this year whose son had taken their life, his own life after taking antidepressants and coming off them and them not agreeing. And, you know, He was very high profile and married to a Windsor and there was all the kerfuffle around it because of the fame as well.

But also they're very shy people. They're not people who want to be in the limelight. But they wanted to find a way to talk about their son and to talk about their fears around 9 million people being on antidepressants in Britain and outsourcing our mental health to the pharmaceutical industry. And do we have enough support when people go on to antidepressants? when they come off of them. And it was really important to be as comfortable as possible. So there are quite a few levers when you're helping bring people's stories out and interviewing and when those two things come together in different ways.

And I was extremely moved by talking to them. With social media, obviously now you get instant feedback. Oh, yeah. Right? Oh, yeah. And with your clips going before. viral, you know, I imagine a lot of the topics lend themselves to virality, which comes with feedback and noise. Is that hard? Well, one of the things I was also going to say, so it's

great to follow up on it, is that something that has helped me, and I don't know if it could help other people, women in particular perhaps, is those who matter know and those who don't, don't, as in to remind yourself of those who know you and what they know of you, being the ones who matter and not all communication is equal. Not all messages are equal. And I got quite strict about that because it has over times in different periods got very, very hot online and very, I mean, I don't use X anymore. I don't use Twitter.

I had a big following there. I used to be very active on it. And I just had to stop looking completely at the interactions. And then you're in this weird thing where you're just posting. And it's sort of weird because you're not looking. and it's almost like a really bad form of broadcast, which is just megaphone. So I came off that.

I mean, I haven't deleted the account yet. On Instagram, I do engage more, but that does mean you see things, and I'm sure you've seen things. And, you know, things stay with you. But sometimes I write back to people. And every time I've written back to someone who's written something,

I don't write back to just abuse, because I get a load of that, anti-Semitism, sexism, you know, that doesn't get a response. But if it's actually, bit more thoughtful but still quite cruel. I have been known privately. I'll never do it publicly because I have a bigger platform usually to write back. And either they don't reply or they reply quite apologetically. I'm mortified.

Maybe, yeah. I don't know it. I voice note people. Do you? Yep. Not regularly. Private. Is it obviously that's privately? Yeah, sorry. Yeah. If I just get really, and you always think I'm mad for it. But I think it really humanises. me and I just think I'm actually fine reading them but I always think I don't want you doing this is not normal behaviour yeah you need to be reminded that this is you are behaving like a weirdo and if I can help you realise that you probably won't do it to anyone else and yeah I think there is something in that it's interesting you do voice note though because there's always animosity you can read whatever you want into writing if you hear my voice and did they

reply always to say sorry always usually as a voice note but I actually think it's really important that because I think we're losing. Anyway, I digressing. No, no, it's interesting. It is super interesting. But I was, on that, you know, you've been doing this for, you know, publicly kind of throughout the way that the media has changed, particularly in the lot of social media has changed in the last decade, but probably the last five years, where, you know, like when, I mean, when I was starting and I guess when I started following UX as was Twitter was massive. And maybe we wouldn't have taken Instagram so seriously, whereas now kind of Instagram's more seriously, but perhaps we're not. I don't know. You know,

there's so many different platforms and there's so much of what you choose to take on and what you can't. Is there anything that still hurts or are you able to be very pragmatic because you've watched it grow? Is it been a case that it doesn't hurt because you've thickened your skin or is it a case that you've, I don't know, you've sort of understood the landscape more? Like, how does your relationship work with it in terms of your feelings rather than your brain? Do you know what rather than your logic. I mean, obviously things hurt me. You know, I'm human.

And weirdly, I think it was a bit, it had like a sportier vibe to it when there was some humour. Like, you know, even just five years ago, maybe six years ago, my husband used to really enjoy being social media police, you know, during, if I was on TV, like live seeing what certain people were saying

and he'd like screenshot the best ones, share it with his brother, they'd have a lot. Like, there was like, we could. And then, like, I do think things got darker. and people really blamed you for certain things or, you know, certain rows in particular when I was at Woman's Hour around our coverage of trans through to, you know, Brexit, through to, you know,

did a big interview, Jeremy Corbyn that went very viral. Like, you know, people attached you then to certain things and kind of held you as responsible. But I think the ones that still hurt are the ones that almost seem reasonable. So the ones where they almost have a point, but they still haven't remembered you're a person. Yeah.

And maybe that's what you're also talking about. And they don't always hurt, but they sort of, they sit badly. Sting. Yeah, sting. Yeah, sting's a good word. Yeah. But you can't thick in your skin that thick to not feel any of it. And I also think to enjoy it, there was a weird phase as well where people would publicly

reply all the time to hate. And I mean, maybe some people still do, but I feel that also was a bit of a trend for a while. And I never really went to that because I don't know. You know, you also just never know when someone's posting their circumstances. And it's quite dangerous territory. It's difficult for you as well because you're a BBC journalist. Yeah. You're a responsibility there.

Yeah. And, you know, people come and talk to me in real life, a lot, a lot. And it's very sweet in some ways because when it's to do with the radio, when I joined News Night, I had done, you know, fair bit of television, you know, in different parts. But this was every week on live TV. And I had forgotten that people would then really know what I look like. So people started really coming over at that point.

And I was like, okay, this is interesting. But versus radio where they would come over mid-sentence sometimes, because they basically heard me do an item or a conversation. They thought we'd talked about it because it's in their ears and it's so personal. And then they'd come up halfway through it. Well, you know, what you were saying about. And I was like, when did I say you that? And how many days ago?

Yeah. And then actually, I'd be fully on board and sorts of. remember it and it'd be quite yeah be quite jovial in a way and very sweet so there is a lot of good interaction as well and and I feel very buoyed by a lot of it but you do have to then see some of the bad I do wonder you know we're talking about what do you thick in your skin like do you just get desensitized I think for me a lot of it is desensitization yeah and like I've seen this once I've seen this like 20 times at this point like I'm and it's usually about them It's always about them, right?

Yeah, you must have seen that. Yeah, always. It's always a projection. Yeah. I think to your point, though, you are our mouthpiece, right, when you're doing that interview, but that's an impossibility. Like, you can't be everybody's mouth. You can't think everybody's, you know, you ask the questions that we would ask,

or you hope that's the job, right? Like, you want to put the questions that the people are asking. But then people will just take it. But we're just at an insane era. Like, the expectation we have of people is so high. that but we're not very good I guess at the sort of dissonance and understanding that like it's not always like not everybody can ask every question

and not everything that they hear is meant for them I think a couple of things quickly on that is which is again has changed while we've been you know I've been in the space you've been in the space even just in the last five years so first of all if a clip goes out for me from a part of an interview that kind of flew just as you do clips

you obviously didn't see the previous five minutes and then there is an assumption that that was the only thing then there's this other thing which I think we have to start addressing, which is this assumption of media literacy, that the lack of understanding of devil's advocate, especially at a place like the BBC,

where I've got to try and channel different positions throughout a conversation, throughout an interview. And I think we're going to have to start explaining it again, because if people are not listening regularly to a place that isn't just the opinions of the people who are hosting it and actually is trying to be that public square, you have to say, I'm playing a position here. You know, I'm assuming a role.

This isn't what I am asking as me. And we could always assume that that was understood before. And I actually don't think we can assume that anymore. Really? No. Does that frustrate you? Yes, it does actually. And I am worried about it.

And I'm even already talking to my seven-year-old about it and trying to explain the space and that there still needs to be that space. because if we only have opinion-led conversations and we only have opinion-led in so-called interviews, that is something very different. And there is value in that and there's experience in that. But you just still need to understand the other space as well.

And we still need that space, you know, especially with the rise of AI. So I don't think we can assume that anymore. And I think that is a big, big shift. Possibly it's the, well, yeah, it's the way that we consume content, I guess, now. It's all short form. clips of a wider conversation chopped up and it's and also i think um something i noticed at woman's hour

which i found really surprising is this idea that you couldn't interview a woman the way you should be nice you should be lovely the whole time um i remember doing an interview with a very lovely woman who was a gentle parenting coach and i or that was her area and i can't really remember like the ins and outs of it now but we had a whole conversation But obviously the clip was the bit where I was like, whatever, the challenge, right? You know, that part that had the amount of you've been mean to her and didda-da-da, you know, and I was like, well, A, I was challenging, you know, that isn't necessarily my personal or whatever it was. But obviously they then didn't see the whole of it.

But what was also underlying, and you were talking about unpicking things before, was this idea I should have just been very nice to it because she's a woman. Now, I also worry about that becoming a norm that women shouldn't be. challenged in the same way as men. I'm not saying overdo it. I'm just saying it can be the same. And we want to be taken for our ideas and taken for our opinions and taken for our work. And I'm not saying that was the majority.

It really wasn't. But it was just a, it was a quirk I noticed, a trend with some who I would possibly say maybe did get a lot more of their information, maybe for online. I don't know. But, you know, we have to sort of watch that. we've actually experienced this a little bit recently with an interview that we did where I think it comes up to a woman

is coming to you as an interviewer rather than the interviewee. It's this idea that we police women, that we need women to, like to what you were saying earlier, to make people comfortable. I think this is what I always find remarkable and inspiring about female journalists,

about you, about so many, like, amazing women in this space, is that they are a challenge to everything I think defines what I believed was womanhood. So I obviously, you know, I'm outspoken in my own way and I tried to challenge myself all the time and obviously I'm inspired by the women that do it. But I think a big part of that is challenging the status quo when it comes to interviewing because there is a part of me that,

and I think there's a part of a lot of people, which is probably why it comes to you, where we hear a woman asking a reasonable question and we see the discomfort and we blame someone because women shouldn't be making people uncomfortable like women should be like making it a safe space and we should be hospitable and nurturing and kind

like to your point so I think as well as it being an interviewee interviewee thing where we have to be nice where women do have to be nice which we've actually sort of stood by Alex and I quite recently like we want to be nice we are not the BBC we are not impartial

we don't have to be we that's our MO here it's like making people feel comfortable because we've got no reason not to. But I think it is really interesting that when it's a woman asking a question, the way that it's, the way that that question makes people feel becomes the interviewer's responsibility

in a way that is completely unjust. And I think that feels like a really big issue. And I don't know if it's getting better. It's, I don't know. But I always feel like you just have more responsibility as a woman, as a female interviewer, as a female journalist. But also you're in a position

where you presumably wouldn't have someone, she says hopefully on your podcast, that you didn't want to talk to and make comfortable. And, you know, you can curate. Whereas I don't have any control over who's on the Today program tomorrow morning. But you don't know it. No, no, but also I'm just saying anyone, right?

And I've got to always be open to anyone and whatever the scenario is. But also that's, this is our room, right? So when someone comes here, they are coming into our room. It's our name on the door. They're sitting on our social. with our team. Whereas when someone comes in to talk to you, they are coming into a journalistic, they are coming into the hub, they are coming into the news. So you should be free

to ask those questions, but I just think it's a cultural discomfort we have with women that we don't like it when you challenge or we don't like it when you push or we don't like it when you disrupt. Well, some don't. I mean, and then you can argue whether it's generational, whether it's cultural now, whether it's, because I also think we're living in an era of not being able to disagree very well and that is sort of also a tangent of this isn't it and sitting in that space you know i've taken a few friends on recently about certain issues and we've done it interestingly through a mixture of voice note text and um sending things you know and i remember my husband saying because he really doesn't like confrontation it's good that we got married and um

so he's not just women but you know he also thinks and i don't know you know sometimes can you change people's minds is it worth it but i also think we had more debates sometimes 10 15 years ago agreeing to differ and and i still want to be that person and i still want to be in that place even with my friends but not in the same way that you would do but i worry about women in particular maybe going backwards on having to be liked, having to be peaceful, having to be the people that please, I don't think we need to go out of our way the other way, but I don't want it to not be there as an option.

And I think that's become more pronounced as well, as a concern. And I was very surprised by that. Unfortunately, it doesn't surprise me, unfortunately. No, but the irony being that, like, you know, you get criticism for pushing or challenging, but if you didn't push or challenge, then you won't be taken seriously. It would just be seen as like, you know.

It would not work. Yeah, but also that, yeah. Has that felt like a big thing as you've come up throughout all the years? Like, has gender been a part of it for you? Has it been a part of your awareness in a sort of general daily sense. In what way? Tell me.

I have to work harder. I have to quiet in this bit down. I have to not mention this. I have a bigger point to prove. Has that felt like part of your journey? Listen, I'm totally aware of, you know, spaces I've been in, where I've worked, what I've done, and only being the one that maybe looked like me in that room.

Or, you know, I was first a technology journalist for The Telegraph. you know, I really enjoy and enjoyed style, you know, and having bright lipstick and, you know, I remember wearing like bright yellow high heels or like little heels running around Silicon Valley trying to land an interview with the founders of Twitter or whatever and, you know, not looking like the tech core of journalists in that particular space. So I've always been very happy to be a woman. I've always enjoyed womanhood. I have tried not to change myself, but be myself. But it's definitely an awareness, like, of course, the whole way through. And I've tried to, as we've already discussed a little bit, make a virtue of what that can mean

and how that can work. I think pretending to not be it is actually a lot more work and a lot harder. Well, it certainly felt for me. But I've also enjoyed, how should you say this? you know there have been certain underestimations of me which have been extremely pleasing to disrupt in certain scenarios you know and because you maybe look a certain way or seem a certain way and it's it's great fun confounding people that's cool can we hear about your podcast yeah i mean i said a little bit already but yes i'm really well it's lovely to be here and you've got very nice seats. We don't have these at the BBC, which I'm greatly enjoying. Maybe we've got a bit of hot chocolate in the back of the cupboard. So this has gone very well for me so far. I've seen how

the other half live, shall we? But yes, it's called Ready to Talk and it's a different guest each week, but it's story led. So while there might be famous people on this week, we've actually got Catherine Ryan coming on. It's very much led by an experience or something that the guest has been through. So, you know, therefore it's famous and not famous people. And there's a lot of people I've also always wanted to go back to who I only had five, six or eight minutes to talk to and had about 24 more questions for. So, you know, from Chris McCausland, who came on to talk about what it was like being born with sight and then losing his sight, but actually describing why perfectionism was cured by winning strictly come dancing, through to, you know, our first episode, which I mentioned myself, being ready to talk about the destabilizing experience of perimenopause. it's a space where I can actually really interview people and I hope in a way by them sharing

what's changed about them or what they've learned, we can do exactly what we were saying is sometimes missing and have quite a different viewpoint of something and think about it. And I really, you know, we've had some amazing messages in so far and a big part of my career has always been having messages come in, live throughout a program and hearing what people say. I'm a far better journalist.

some of my best thoughts or ideas have come while I'm on there from someone listening and a message is coming. I like to be porous and to receive. So we'll have a lot of the community element into it as well. It sounds brilliant. We can't wait to listen. It is out now on BBC Sounds, ready to talk and we're going to put a link as well in the show notes. And you can get it on Spotify and Apple, I'm told. Excellent. We've got to always promote the BBC, apparently. Of course we do. I do. Not you. Emma, thank you so much for talking to us today. Thank you.

I've really enjoyed it. I hope I people pleased as much as possible. We've got that covered. You're fine. As you were. We do enough for it. Should I delete that as part of the ACAS creator network?