Should I Delete That? - Everyday Racism

Episode Date: February 26, 2024

This week on the pod, Alex and Em are joined by Naomi Evans, one half of the Instagram account Everyday Racism. Naomi and Natalie are award-winning writers, educators, speakers and sisters! Naomi talks us through how Everyday Racism came to be, why the school curriculum needs to be updated and why the UK is so reluctant to admit it has a racism problem.You can follow Naomi and Natalie on Instagram @everydayracism_You can purchase The Mixed Race Experience here, Everyday Action Everyday Change here, and if you want more details on the Anti-Racist School course, you can find them at https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-anti-racist-school-tickets-314601470467?utm-campaign=social&utm-content=attendeeshare&utm-medium=discovery&utm-term=listing&utm-source=cp&aff=escbFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So I think at the moment we have a curriculum in this country that is still very much placing a certain group of people at the centre of history and everybody else is either othered or irrelevant to it. Hi everyone and welcome back to Should I Delete That? I'm M Clarkson and I am joined once again by the mail of the species. That's so weird. Boy Alex is here. Boy Alex is back. How are you, babe? Yeah, I'm grand.

Great. She's thriving. Good. Okay, an awkward to kick us off. I just, I said it to you in passing, but I'm going to just, um, I'm going to, I don't know if it's a bad thing. It feels like a bad thing. Took all over to gymnastics today.

Who? Orla. No, good. No, I said Arlo. Don't gas like me. I said Arlo. Okay, so I took a kid, then he did. good, to gymnasties today.

And there was a little boy there, and I was like, I said to the, I said to the woman with him, I was like, oh, he looks so like you. And she just looked to me and she was like, well, I'm the nanny. I was like, oh, okay. And it was just really awkward. Because it was like, it was so transparent. I was just trying to be polite and make friends. Although they did look kind of weirdly similar.

But, but. But also it could be a compliment. Was the baby good looking? Yeah, it was a baby. Yeah. I mean, you can get ugly babies, though. Let's just put it out there. No such thing as an ugly baby.

No, of course not. Because we might have bombings, and we just wouldn't know, because no one's going to tell us. Yeah, that's why we don't show her on the internet. Just in case. No, we don't. We've got, she's... She's a stoner. Yeah, she's just seven.

But we have to say that, and we are completely blind. Yeah, we are. It's like you can't smell your own false. It's like when we look back as pictures of... her when she was like five weeks old. I mean, we thought she looked beautiful back then. She was. She was a bit yellow.

Okay, how are you? Do you have anything good, bad or awkward for me? I've got all three ready. Have you? Yeah, okay. I don't even think you've done that much this week. I really haven't. Although last night, this is my awkward.

It's not my awkward, but it's an awkward that happened around me because it was so awkward. And I actually forgot to tell you this morning, so it's good now. Basically... Forgive Arlo in the background. She's playing with her toys. So last night. I went to the pub with a friend of mine

and I have been out in ages and I went to the loo and as I was in there someone else came in I didn't see who it was and then someone else behind that person came in and there was someone who made a joke sounded like he was meant to be a joke saying God you're dressed up real fancy

or something along those lines and kept on making these jokes about this bloke who was obviously in a tuxedo or something and he was just standing there and then he was washing his hands and the guy in the tuxedo didn't say anything. Uh-huh. The other guy then, who's making all these jokes, leaves.

And the guy in the tuxedo says, yes, I've just been at a funeral all day. Oh, no. And what? So the guy's making jokes when this guy had his willie out? Yeah, just joking about, like... Does that happen a lot? No, people don't really talk to each other. Yeah, I hope so.

But I think he's pretty pissed, this guy. He was pretty drunk, so... But it was very awkward. So this man had a willie sticking out of this tuxedo. And one guy thought, now's a good time to make a joke. He made the jokes before the guy sort of weeing. But I'd like to know where your filthy mind goes about men's loose. It was thinking about us all with our willies out.

Well, you do have your willies out. Yes. And I think that's really funny. But you're all stood against the wall with your willies out. Where do you look? Straight ahead. Always straight ahead. Except in this case, the guy making the jokes.

You'd make jokes without having to look at someone. I think if he'd looked a bit harder, like the tear-stained face of this man, you might thought twice about making the joke. So that was very awkward. That's horrifically awkward. That's really sad. Yeah, really sad. I hate, well, I don't hate funerals.

That's a, that's a massive claim. I'm mostly unfounded. Then when I went out to the pub, I realized that there was a lot of people all that this off. Were you at a funeral? It was a funeral yesterday. I had a bed at last night. I crashed a funeral.

Yeah, they were all absolutely shit-faced. My good is that, I mean, you know this, obviously, because, you know, she's our daughter, and everyone's like, just, we're talking about a daughter again. and obviously. Yeah, yeah. Arlo had her first water babies lesson last week. And they thought that she'd been doing it for a while.

Well, while we're being proud parents, that's what the guy at the gymnastics gym, it was her first gymnastics class today. And he was like, oh my God, she's a natural. I was like, I mean, yes, she did, sure a shit didn't inherit it from me. But yes, she is. Very proud. Very proud. Yeah, that's good.

Yeah, look at the age one. That's not my good, though. Like, delighted for her that she's. good at all this stuff but back to me have you seen the length of this jumper have you got the shoulders yet i've done the shoulders i'm getting onto sleeves which i'm very nervous about but so far i've made a cape you can't knit both sleeves at the same time can you i don't know i haven't got to you'd have a very long sleeve wouldn't you i don't know i actually don't know i'm terrified i skimmed ahead briefly to the instructions wish i hadn't have you told everyone what your

toxic trade is through knitting as well in that you haven't even finished this one and this is attempt four and I found you three okay fine I found you the other night what are you ordering online well another one a sleeveless one a sleeveless kit because that's called insurance that's that's called giving up no are you kidding if you're ordering one without sleeves because you're currently on the difficult part of sleeves yeah I mean there's there's something in that right yeah there is fail to prepare prepare to fail and that's it I didn't want to leave this with no jumper I'd rather leave with the sleeveless jumper than with no jumper at all. So actually, I think it's Martin or harder.

Right. Anything bad? I'm getting far too comfortable wearing my CrossFit gloves. If you wore them to the co-op, I don't think you should go out for a little while. I took Arnold to her swimming less than. No, I didn't. That's gonsie as hell. I'm, I've, I've started.

wearing them just like when I walk into the gym when like I don't even need them. Yeah, I don't do that. You're wearing them to the funeral last night. Oh god. To get your willie out. Yeah. Aw. Yeah. That's not bad. Yeah, that's really bad. That's my bad too. Do you know how many bags? Oh, my hip hurts

a lot. I think I've, I've overdone my... What the fuck? Knitting and a sore hip. It's a really sore hip to be fair. Yeah, I'm in bobbins. My hip really hurts. And every time I lean forward, it hurts.

And it's just really sore. And I'm really nervous. I'm a serious note, because obviously you know how much this marathon means to me. And I've been really trying to train. You've been splashing it. I know. Everyone I speak to is just so impressed with your training. Most of people I speak to want to talk to me about my knitting.

Like, literally no one brings up the marathon. I'm so invested in. And I wait for them to say the extraordinary physical feet you're putting your body through. But what they say is, that jumper. You're pretty hefty on the thumbs. That's true. I'm taking on a couple of huge challenges at the moment but yeah it's really stressing me out because it just

I've hurt myself and I was doing so well like I was running so fast for smashing all my PBs I thought I could get a sub one hour 10K if I really tried this week and now my hip hurts like and not like a little bit but like you've seen me when it goes it's just like sciatic like crazy so yeah I'm ancient I guess one of our shared goods is that we're going to go and see go a while this weekend very excited

we're obviously trying to give her like all the space she needs to adapt into life as a mother and spend this time with her precious family and then also like I miss her terribly and will offer her great amounts of pistachio related treats to come back yeah I'm excited little Tommy I know um I know but the problem is whenever I see a new baby I'm like I want that I want one and then it's like no no you haven't slept you're still perhaps feeding, you're exhausted. The body does, like, fade all those memories out, doesn't it? Yeah, and then I see

photos of myself literally for the whole of 20-20-2, and I've just got my head, like, how many selfies did I take from a loop, from a, from throwing out? Or just carrying around a doggy poo bag. Yeah, exactly. So I have to keep looking at those every day. Every time I see

a new baby, I have to, like, I might say it as my screensaver. Don't. Don't. Don't do that. Hey, has anyone left their phones? It's got a background of a woman throwing up on it. Sorry, yeah, that's me. It's a kink. It's your background.

Yeah. Oh. I may you're into it. Do you think that's a thing? 1,000% that's a thing. No way. I know... Okay, let's just Google it.

I know weeing is a thing. Oh, um, what do you think I need to Google? Vomit kinks. Bommet kink. I have... Oh, my God. I have a fantasy where I get wet and tingly down there. No, look.

Go back. Well, when I listen to people vomit. No, I'm not kink shaming. Sorry, I'm going to read that again really seriously. I have a fantasy where I get wet and tingly down there while listening to people vomit or hearing stories on it, should I be ashamed. Yes.

No. Okay, no. Look at this. Emmett Ophelia, also known as a Roman shower, is the sexual arousal from vomiting. It's literally got my name in it. Oh, my God. It's mine.

This is how we're going to monetise that second pregnancy. What, we're not going to live stream, how we... It doesn't have to be a wee thing. I can do this alone. I don't need you. Right. Ladies. On that note.

I was going to say, ladies and gentlemen, who are we kidding? Ladies and ladies. This week we spoke to Naomi, who is one half of the platform Everyday Racism. If you don't follow them on Instagram yet, you definitely ought to and check out the book that they have published. We really enjoyed this conversation and hope you do too. Hi, Naomi. Hi. Thank you so much for joining us here today.

Thanks for having me. Guys, this is Naomi. One half of Everyday Racism with your sister, Natalie. Yes. And everyday racism is a platform that you both founded to tackle and dismantle systemic racism. Can we go back to the beginning if you don't mind and tell us how this came about? Yeah, absolutely. So Natalie's not here today, but she's normally my partner in crime. She's doing the school run. Very helpful, aren't you? But yeah, we are sisters and grew up together. we grew up in a small seaside town, Margate, down in Kent, which when we grew up there in the 80s, it was quite different to how it is now.

So it was a very white majority town, lots of kind of socio-economic deprivation. And yeah, we were very much in the minority and it wasn't easy. It wasn't an easy start. And we, I think we knew that we had experienced a lot of racism growing up, but we didn't really have the language. We weren't really sure how to articulate that. And we didn't really talk about it with each other. We'd sometimes mention things to our mum who was really proactive in kind of advocating for us.

But again, I just don't think we really, always understood how it was playing out, even though we sensed that there were things that were not okay. But a few years ago, Natalie, I remember her messaging me and saying, I've read this really amazing book and I really want you to read it. And it was why I'm no longer talking to white people about race by Renéido Lodge, which I'm sure a lot of people have heard of and since read. But this was when it very first came out. And she lent it to me and I started to read it and I was just like, wow, I've never read something that has articulated the kind of black experience of living in England in this way.

And she was just saying things and I was like, oh my gosh, yes, that is exactly how I felt or how I feel. So that was really helpful. And then after reading it, Natalie and I were just chatting to each other and saying, wouldn't it be like really powerful if that because I'm sure like a lot of people are feeling like this if there was a space for people to actually talk about their own experiences from like a UK context because whenever I had heard about racism and issues of racism, it was a lot of the framing was around the states and that kind of focus. So we talked about, you know, it would be

good to maybe talk to some of our friends and what would that look like and we kind of discussed it but didn't really do anything with it and then a couple of years later Natalie was on a train coming back from London to Margate and she'd been at a work meeting and it was like the end of the day and the carriage was packed and she said that she was sat there and she saw two white men get on the chain with like a bag of cans and they were drinking and you know just that thing where you kind of sense oh okay I'll just be a little bit more alert about you know what might happen here or how this might play out and then the ticket conductor who is black man came and asked for tickets and

she said that you know the guys clearly didn't have a ticket and they were trying to kind of get out of it and then as the ticket conductor challenged them they said that started to racially abuse him and at this point she was like okay I'm going to start filming because I think maybe he might want some evidence and then as it kind of escalated she then stood up and went over and said to them like you need to stop this is I mean you can watch a video like she we put it out and um you know and she says herself she didn't have like this perfect way of challenging it was quite kind of clumsy um and it actually ended up that the two guys backtracked and apologized and the

and afterwards she spoke to the ticket conductor and said you know like I'm really sorry that happened here's the footage if you want me to write a statement or anything and then she called me uh when she got home and asked me to pick her up from the station because she said she was a bit shaken up and I was like what happened and she told me um she said the thing is nay like you know that we've been in situations like that before where you've seen those things play out you've had to say something but she was like that train carriage was full of people and I was the only person she was like in her late 20s like you know a young woman on her own and I was the only person that actually stood up and did anything and she was like there were people who

literally actively like put their heads down or put their headphones in she said someone like tutted when she got up and then she said and afterwards about three people came over and said well done and she was like well where were you so we had this kind of conversation like it's just so frustrating and looking back at incidents that had happened from school to then uni to then work where we were like we always if we do call it out no one ever backs a society. up. In fact, sometimes you're made to feel like you've been the really awkward, difficult one in doing so. So again, we kind of just left that there. And a month later, one of our friends who's a musician, Governor B, he messaged us and said, you know that video, because

we'd sent it to a couple of our friends. And he's like, you know that video you sent me of what happened? I really want to put it out on my Twitter. And we can blur faces. He said, but I've had this really ridiculous conversation about somebody saying that, you know, like racism isn't an issue in the UK. And I just want to like show this happened to my friend like last month on the train. And we were like actually, yes, that's fine to do that. But also maybe this is the time now to start thinking about this idea that we'd had. And it also was around the time that the murder of Armald Albury had happened, which was essentially like a modern day lynching in the States. And people, you know, were kind of saying that rhetoric of, oh, well, I'm so glad

things like that don't happen in the UK. So the video went out. It went viral. We kind of watched all the commentary, which was either can't believe this has happened or well done for speaking out. And literally that night, we just started this account. We called it Everyday Radio racism. We put the train video out and then we put like I think just a quote out and said anyone want to send us a story and that was it. We were like you know it just it just spiraled from there and then two months later was the murder of George Floyd and obviously we know kind of what happened and how the landscape and the dialogue shifted and that was really yeah when everyday racism started to pick up a lot of traction.

So that's the, that's the early stages. And in the three years, almost four years since you started, you've now released two books, one of which is aimed at children and young people. Yeah. And as part of what you do, you also educate in schools, right, about racism, much. I feel, I suppose, makes perfect sense in so many ways, but also you are a, you work with children. You are a teacher. I'm a teacher. Yeah, you're a teacher. So it kind of feels exactly right, but it must be a very draining thing to do for you to, and it's amazing in that you

have, but you are bringing both your worlds together in what must be a very full-on way. Yeah. How do you, how have you navigated the last four years with it growing and growing and growing and trying to navigate your own life within that as well. Yeah, it's been a juggle and a challenge for sure because I think at first I very much tried to keep, you know, my home life teaching life quite separate from the everyday racism work. And then obviously that doesn't work because it's it's not a subject where you can just box it off. It's part of my life and my lived experience. And then also the the things that I've seen, the gaps that I've seen are very much in education. And so when people say, like,

what do you think needs to be done? And I'm like, well, one of the key things is we need to work in schools and we need to mainly work with teachers, to be honest with you, more than the students. It's the teachers that need a lot of support and training in this area. So, yeah, the two worlds have now collided and I do a lot of training with teachers. Can I also? ask what that training looks like. Yeah, sure. Just going back to what you just said about your upbringing and your mom was really good at being proactive and advocating for you, but reading between the lines, it kind of sounds

that maybe your school weren't so forthcoming with that sort of advocacy. No, absolutely not. There was no advocacy. There was actually very little awareness or understanding. Yeah. And a lot of what has happened in terms of me, like, processing. my identity and the racism that I've experienced has come from a really bad experience at school.

And there wasn't necessarily, I mean, there was a couple of avert cases, but a lot of it was to do with the subtle kind of othering and the codes and messages of, you know, the default in this space. And I think it goes for a lot of institutions is whiteness, like heteronormal, like. like cis, like this is the default. And if you are not that, then your other, dependent on the intersectional nature of your identity. And I think, yeah, it's taken me a lot of time

to kind of undo that negative kind of messaging. I mean, I was talking about it yesterday with another teacher, we're doing some work on the curriculum. And we were just saying, like, at school, the narratives around, for example, black history was very much you were enslaved like African history

you were enslaved and it was white British people that abolished slavery so well done us and you know we should be thankful and that was literally the extent of my knowledge

of what we would call black history so I think there was a lot at school plus obviously like my friends it was a very very white majority school so you know there a lot of my friends didn't understand these issues and so there was you know harm there as well so I think yeah the for me the issues with school are about making

sure teachers are confident in understanding these issues first of all because they can't support or advocate for students if they don't actually understand the issues that they're they're looking at so that's like the main thing is me training teachers to see what anti-blackness looks like in school how does it show up um on a personal level in our biases and in the curriculum and the way that we deal with students so yeah that's a really big part of what I do but going back to your question about like the juggling and things like that it's it's been a big journey and even today I'm like I don't know sometimes like um you know how to look after yourself and that is quite tough any area of working in social justice or um you know and

working um with or being part of a marginalised community you can feel quite isolated and I guess the big thing is learning what works for you like learning what you need and what helps you, it's going to look very different to somebody else. Yeah, it must be difficult because you're also exposed to a lot of other people's experiences and pain and trauma. And you kind of, you, I mean, I don't know what, you're, how desensitized you are, I guess, at this point, but you take that on, you take that all on. And that must be a lot to deal with.

Do you ever just feel like, I just want to be completely separate from this and not have to think about racism and race? yeah i think of course there are times when you're like i do want to like switch off from the topic but then when your identity is part of that you can't it's very hard to do that because you can't detach yourself i definitely have found there are times when i've been hypersensitive and i found that really hard because i'm like i know what's going on i can sense what's going on but actually I've just come out for dinner. Like I really don't want to be.

And that's really hard to navigate because you're like, this is just like my life and you can't just separate those things. And I think that's what makes these issues that are linked to your identity so difficult. And that's where people perhaps don't understand because they're like, well, you know, just this whole kind of sticks and stones, you know, just brush it. And it's like it's not that simple to do. when it's linked to your actual human, humanness, existence. And I see this as well, like what you were saying about having found that book

that you and Natalie both read in your later life, having not, not your later life, but in your 20s, having not, sorry, later life makes it sound like you found at age like 70. But finding it, but you're saying you didn't have the language. And I suppose with everyday racism as well, with the platform, it's like every day. day your eyes are opening more and more to not just your own experience but everybody else is. And it's, I suppose it's incredibly vindicating in a way for you to have the language for yourself and to know that you aren't alone because I imagine growing up as you did as a minority in a very white area. That is lonely. So it must feel that kind of weird juxtaposition of

like you've got your community and you're vindicated. But it's also just like, oh my God, This is like, it's intense. Yeah. And yeah, and you can't separate yourself for it. Yeah, I think community is such an important word in this. And not just to do with when you're thinking about your racial identity. But, you know, when I became a mum, for example, and then that was a whole new world for me. And I had to find my people and find my community who would understand what that would feel like and look like.

And yeah, even though the platform is obviously the topic is hard and it's not an easy one to talk about, there has been real positivity from it because we've found people and not just people who are racialized as black, like lots of different people who want to engage in this work, who want to move forward with it. And that is very empowering, like you said, to know you're not alone and then also to connect with people. that want to move things forward. So that has been one of the best things about creating that community. And we have like a book club and a Patreon and things like that. And there's just some amazing people out there that we've been able to connect with, which is great. Can I ask about the kind of shift in language and in conversation?

And I guess you founded this platform at a time where, it was about to go, this conversation was about to become so huge. And so I imagine you've kind of had to be playing catch up a bit because it was so early on in your community's existence that their Black Lives Matter protest kind of like took over the world and became such a part of everybody's conversation. But I wonder how you've kind of internally and as a community kind of worked within the UK.

because I feel like America, we do sit here, you're right, and be like, well, they're a mess and they don't have this and this is horrible and it's their problem. But as you've pointed out, it's like it's so prevalent here. But how have you kind of navigated and what's your kind of hope for the conversation in the UK in the context of the last four years? Yeah, so I think one, taking it into a UK focus perspective has been something that we wanted to achieve for sure. And there's people that, you know, have obviously been doing this work for a very long time. And then when, you know, people started talking about Black Lives Matter and after the murder of George Floyd, you know, a lot of the work was suddenly given a spotlight. And people are like, I've been trying to do this for years. I've been speaking about this for a very long time. And suddenly people are interested.

but I think yeah for me in terms of the conversation it's one about education and making sure that there is space and time for people to learn because I think that there's many issues where you know a lot of us are interested in them but we're not the experts but we need space and time to be able to learn you don't know what you don't know and I'm not going to expect people just to miraculously suddenly understand everything. So I think for us, that's what we wanted to do, was to create spaces where people could ask questions. And that's something we've chosen to do. You know, like the anti-racism work is a choice for us. So, you know, we've opened ourselves up into that area. And I think as well it's about making sure that, you know,

people that do experience racism can just live their lives and they're not seen as like the go-to for, you know, if you've got somebody at work and you're like, oh, I'll go and ask them. They're like the black colleague I know. I'll go and talk to them about it. It's like, no, just let them go to work. They don't have to come and, you know, be that person.

So I think there's that element as well. And I think, yeah, it's just, it's difficult because the racism in the UK is very different in the way that it shows up. to the US, you know, I've got a lot of friends and I've got family who are US based and they will say, and this, you know, won't go for everybody, but they will generally say that it's more just avert in your face you just know. Whereas here, I think there is a subtlety and an undercurrent through people's language and their actions that sometimes is quite hard to put your finger on it and people will often sit and debate it. They'll be like,

like oh but I didn't think it was or no no no it isn't that and you're sat there going I know it is that and I think that that's something that is is different and I think that that's something that is harder sometimes to understand and so we have to spend time to understand why that is and I think one of the reasons it is because we very much orchestrated a lot of the way that racism shows up across the world, you know, like we were the architects of the transatlantic slave trade. And although we don't have that in our soil like the US do, we were very much the architects of it. And so we live with a lot of the benefits of it, but we also do this thing of, but we abolished it. And so there's this kind of dual narrative going on. And again,

this is to do with education because a lot of the things that, you know, people need to know about the history of racism. It doesn't just start with the transatlantic slave trade and it doesn't end there. And we're not teaching this stuff. People don't understand this stuff. And things like, you know, race is a social construct and people go, I don't, what do you mean by that? I don't understand. And we're just not giving the time and space to learn these things. And so for me that's one of the things that I'd like to see happen and change, which is why I'm so focused on education. It's like your kind of target with the, with the curriculum. And it would be what in your like ideal vision for the curriculum, what would it look like? So I think at the

moment we have a curriculum in this country that is still very much a kind of white centred kind of solo narrative style curriculum it's you know it's placing a certain group of people at the centre of history and everybody else is kind of either othered or irrelevant to it and so our children are kind of learning this very singular narrative now there's a lot of work going on to change that there are brilliant teachers and educators out there that are doing lots of work with the curriculum, but that isn't something that you can guarantee across the board. So I think people assume that because we have a national curriculum, then that's fine. It's all addressed in that. But you will go to one school and they will be teaching about this in this way and then

you'll go to another school and it'll be completely different. And so I think for me, the curriculum, and you know, people will call it different things, decolonising the curriculum, diversifying the curriculum, whatever. My take on it is that diversity already exists. So diversity isn't a new thing. So I heard somebody say the other day they're actually giving a talk at a school. And one of the things that they said was, isn't it wonderful that we now live in a really diverse society? And I was like, but it was always diverse. All these people of trans people, people with disabilities, black and brown people like we've all ways existed we've always been around it's not a new thing it's just that now people are actually one able to kind of vocalize and and and and be themselves in a way that

they weren't able to before for various reasons so it's not about diversifying the curriculum is actually about just making sure that people are included in the curriculum and so like an example of that for me is talking about dual narratives. So when we're teaching as a subject, for example, if we're teaching about, you know, World War II, for example, and all the imagery and all the stories that we hear, and I'm not saying this isn't important, but is very white-centric, you know, the images of the soldiers you'll see. It will all be from a very, this is the British narrative perspective. And actually we've got those people existed absolutely but we also had the Gurkhas and we also had lots of people from all over the world fighting on our behalf because of colonisation,

right? So why are those people not included in British history? Why are they othered? So why can't we have this is what was going on here and this is also what was going on here? And what people don't understand is the power of that inclusion for students who are perhaps not racialized as white, for example, the power of that inclusion is integral to how they form their identity and how they look at themselves. So I think for me, it's not just about making sure that we teach the truth because those things are happening at the same time, but it's also the impact of those things on our young people and on our children. And then also, that's not just about our black and brown children, but that's also about our children who are racialized as

white going we, it wasn't just about us and we weren't just the center point. We were doing this, whatever your opinion is on that, but we were there together. And so you then start to kind of deconstruct that hierarchical system that maybe exists in school. because of what children are learning and seeing about themselves. Yeah, and feeling as if diversity is new because they literally not seeing it in their textbooks. But it's also really interesting

and I don't know about you or actually I don't know about anyone and they've spoken about my curriculum with anyone because it would be weird as an adult to talk about what I learned in school all the time. But my history, I was really, I loved history but I learned all about the civil rights movements in America. never learned a thing about it. I don't know. Did yours ever?

Nothing. And that doesn't make, because it, it has treated it, it seems very deliberate as if it's just been like, oh, America's racism. Yeah. I know. And it's like the, we've got these incredible people who, like, Claudia Jones, for example, who, like, started, you know, like the Notting Hill carnival and things like that. We've got these people who are so important and integral to what's happened.

and they're just a race. They're just not mentioned. They're completely ignored. It's very bizarre. But we do sort of have this hero complex, I think, about that period of history when we speak about the break. And maybe it is because we won World War II and there's a lot of, that's the kind of focus of that period of history.

And then it is, it's like the whole thing deviates. We just go straight to Vietnam, straight to civil rights, straight to America. And it's kind of like 1960 to 2000, just doesn't really exist in the UK in terms of anything we've learned. Yeah. And also I think we have to. think about who those narratives serve and what do those narratives do to the way that people

think about this country and about themselves sorry I'm really like everything's just sliding into place in my head because then I'm also like but that during that time we've got the boomers are still alive from that period so we just take their word on it yeah absolutely so now you've got like pierce Morgan etc debating the issues and they're like well I was there because it was all well and also all of these people and that generation are the ones who lead our country and there is a certain system that still very much serves certain people. So why would they want to change that? And so I think for me,

another part of running everyday racism is about empowering people to see that they can actually make a difference. We don't have to wait and it would be wonderful if we had the powers that be on board. But actually we don't have to wait for that. We can do things ourselves. And we do hold a lot of power collectively if we work together, but also people need to see what's going on

and that is about education and time and space for people to be able to do that. With your teacher training, which, oh my God, so agreed, it's got to be way more important to teach the teachers than the children. Well, actually, both are very important, but the children aren't going to learn properly if the teachers aren't correctly informed. Absolutely. Do you ever come across any defensiveness? all the time. Oh, you do, yeah, from the teachers.

Yeah. You just aren't willing to lean into this. Yeah, there's lots of different kind of approaches. There are some brilliantly proactive educators out there. Like I did a course yesterday with diverse educators. They're a great organisation that have been doing this work for a long time. And incredible practitioners out there driving this work forward. but you can only drive it forward

if you've got people on board and leadership teams are integral to that because the culture of a school is often informed by the leadership. So if you've got the leadership team that are on board and want to make this work then they will bring the staff along with them. But yeah, we have individual teachers

that do training with us but we will often get people that say we did your training, we loved it, we took it back to the head or we took it back to the leadership and they were like, we haven't got the money, we haven't got the time to do that this year, maybe we'll look at it next year, you know,

it's that kind of thing. And then when we have been brought into places, definitely there are people who you know are either sat there thinking, I don't know why we're doing this. It's, you know, I don't see the importance. Or you will have people that spend the whole time just trying to defend themselves.

you know and comments like well I don't see the colour of my students I just treat them all the same you know this kind of stuff and you're like it's very problematic so yes we do have that when you get this defensiveness you must get it not just in the teachers but you must get it online as well yeah yeah and if you don't you don't have to answer this because it's not your this really isn't your job to kind of like deal with ignorant people but how do you kind of do you come back to those comments or do you not do you not have the is it a bit like can't even be asked with you or do you have to like find the language to come back to them and if so how I think it's like you said about you know how do you look after yourself sometimes it's just

like no yeah this is a waste of my energy it's not going to change your mind like there's no point sometimes people you can sense that they just don't understand so it's like actually how can we just take this back so that you can see what we're trying to say to you. A lot of the time I work from, you know, like my experience because I'm like, you can't argue with that. You can't argue with two people when it's me and Natalie, you know, telling you we went to school, she's six years younger than me, went to school at different times, went to different schools. This was what we experienced.

And also, this is what some of my students. still experience, and even my own children. Like I have dealt with a few incidents already. They're six and nine. And I've dealt with some of the same things that I was dealing with or my mum was dealing with with us at school. So if you talk about kind of real life, a lot of the time people can't argue with you.

But I think like with any of this work, a lot of it goes back to empathy, a lot of understanding any of these issues and, you know, many of them are linked together and the way that people are othered and discriminated against is rooted in a fear or is rooted in a lack of understanding. But we have to be able to cultivate empathy for one another because otherwise as well,

if you don't have an understanding of why you feel that way or where those feelings are coming from, even with the best will in the world, you're still going to be perpetuating harm. Because if you don't actually analyze where all of that's coming from, because a lot of the time this stuff isn't about what we think it's about, you know, when people say, well, they're discriminated against because of the colour of their skin. Yes, but also people are discriminated. against because the other person has got some issue that they are not dealing with and it comes out through racism right so actually another part of this is we can do all the educating we like but if people aren't willing to do the internal work then it's kind of pointless

so that's another part of it where does that anger and that fear and that hatred where is that actually coming from and we need to do work on that as well which at the moment is hard because like the mental mental health and you know support for counselling and things like that is very difficult to access in schools and also for for adults too but that should be something we're investing in and we're also at such a divisive time in terms of the kind of interesting way that the news, and I use that term loosely, but like the way that now news is so often like a debate. And I wonder how you feel watching that. We have become, and I'm just going to cite GV News because otherwise I'm just going to talk around it, but like the kind of the debates

that happen, and I put that in quotation marks, do you believe, do you think that they are causing more harm? You know, sometimes it's like, well, is it good that we're having these conversations or or it's the way that we're having these conversations causing more harm than good, in your opinion? Yeah, I think when you have, for example, the news program that you've talked about, I don't see how that is helpful to be, like, we have a rule that we don't debate racism. So it's like if we are at the stage where we're still trying to talk about whether there is racism in this country or not, That at that level, for me, I'm not interested in that because I'm like, that is base. And if that's where we're working from, it's going to be very difficult to move anything forward.

So I think those programs, anyone watching those, I cannot see how they are going to have their views changed or they're going to be challenged by people going on there and debating in the way. those ways. I think those values are already very, very fixed. And so for me, no, I don't find them particularly helpful. And I've just read Afro Hirsch's new book, Decolonising My Body. And the first chapter, like the opening, she talks about how she was invited to go on to a, I think it was a BBC show. And it ended up being a bit of a debate. And she just felt like she was having to lay everything. out on the line to kind of prove that these issues were and she just said like she got to the point where she was like I'm not doing this anymore like it's just literally taking pieces of me away for what purpose for who and then she talks about how she met Oprah and she asked

Oprah like how do you keep going you know in this and she was like you have to have joy you have And it was just a really beautiful. I'd really recommend reading the book and reading that opening part. And I really resonated with that. I was like, I'm just not going to do that anymore because I don't think it's particularly helpful for anybody. Having to kind of prove your humanity all the time

is a pretty destructive way to live. And like mind your own trauma in order to get people to believe what you're saying. Yeah. And sometimes you do want to share things. Like I'm really fine with sharing like how the platform started and things like that because that's part of our story and that is a choice. But yeah, agreed like having to do that and I think a lot of marginalised people have been put in the position where they have to do that and it's really unhealthy.

And it's sad that we as humans I guess like we kind of have to like see it to believe it, you know and we have to hear like we have to be like okay well give me examples yeah like I don't I'm not just taking a word for it like give me examples show me show me show me yeah and then I think people do start to become desensitized and that's a really sad place to be as well people it's very confronting because so much of what you're what you're quite rightly calling for is a change in kind of everything and that does make people I guess defensive and I guess the first thing people think or want to think is well that's not it's not my fault i didn't mean it i don't do that i didn't and they want to remove themselves from it can i ask about the the book that you've written for kids

what kind of things are in there like because you must have to have this conversation with your own kids as well is that what made you want to write this book um yeah partly partly it was because i thought i work in secondary schools and this book is for primary so it's sort of end of primary like year five and six line upwards my son's nine so definitely had him in mind when I was writing it wrote it with Natalie um and I think we just felt like it would be really good to have a resource for primary school teachers to use teachers love resources and and you need resources like to help you can't just be coming up with everything new and fresh all the time But also some of the feedback that we've had from the book is that adults have read it and they found it really helpful.

So it's called Everyday Action, Every Day, Change and it's about fighting prejudice and discrimination. So it doesn't just focus on racism. It also looks at other areas of discrimination. And we also had some guest writers as well because obviously we can't speak on behalf of all of these issues. And, yeah, I think, you know, we made some resources as well that teachers can download to go with it so that it's a... Because, I mean, children are so great at talking about this stuff. You know, I often hear people say, oh, but I don't think I want to expose my children to this.

You know, yeah, I think we'll wait. And I'm like, they've already been exposed to it. They're exposed to it when they go to nursery and they're around other kids. Like, that's the minute it all starts, you know. And research tells us that children, you know, from three months or whatever, start to recognise differences in people and things like that. So it's there in front of them and they're going to be navigating it. It's just obviously the way that you do it.

You can do it in a way that reinforces like positivity and difference rather than negativity. And I think like, you know, I've had some amazing whole. conversations with my son, like, and the way that he navigates school and he'll come home and he'll point things out and he'll say, I said this today and I saw that and I don't know. And it's just beautiful, like being able to have those open conversations and I hope that as he gets older, he won't then have to have this thing of, oh, now I'm just realizing everything. Now I'm just like, oh, now I see it all. because I've always been aware of it

and actually I know how to have conversations about it. So I think, yeah, we wanted to do it for teachers, wanted it for parents, so parents can read it with their children and also, yeah, for some adults that perhaps don't know where to start and haven't got the language to have those conversations with their children.

Do you find that children are better at having this conversation because A, there's less defensiveness and B, they aren't scared of using terms that aren't acceptable anymore or they kind of, they just talk without inhibition, I guess. Yeah, there's less fear. Yeah. A lot of the time there is less fear. They will just tell you honestly.

Yeah. And also I think they are engaged. A lot of them are engaged in a different way, possibly because of, well, most probably because of social media. and like some of my secondary students they're teaching me you know they're like oh but we learned this and I saw this on TikTok and I'm like oh okay and you need to catch up yeah so I think yeah they're incredible to have conversations with and I mean they're leading some of the most incredible movements you know like the climate change movement has been driven by young people

They are shaming us, actually, in the way that they're working with social justice issues. And I mean, even the other day, I think it was the Education Secretary said, you know, children or students shouldn't be taking time off from school to attend protests. And I was like, what a wonderful problem to have. Our children are skipping school and students are taking time off school to go and protest. That's incredible. and I wrote a comment like, I'd be super proud if my children miss God was going to a protest. Yeah, it's much cooler than like sneaking off behind the bike shed for a cigarette.

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. So I think, yeah, there is a, you know, I don't want to like put it all on them because it's not their sole responsibility, but it is wonderful to see how active and engaged they can be. And yeah, the way there is an openness with a lot of young people to change ideas and to rethink things

without that sense of I've got to like pin down on what I've been brought up with and this is the way it's always been so that's the way it's got to be which I think is where some of our defensiveness comes from because we're protecting, trying to protect ourselves.

If an adult is listening to this, we will let you go in a minute, but if an adult is listening to this and they want to unpin that in themselves and they want to learn and they know that they've got their own shit. Yeah. What would be a good place for them to start?

So I think it depends how you learn. So for some people, like reading a book is a brilliant way. And for others, that would just be they're just not going to do it. And that's fair. Not everybody is a reader and not everybody is an academic. So it might be an audible. It might be a podcast. It might be listening to something.

It might be watching. Like, I love watching TED Talks. Like I just, sometimes I just sit at home and I'm just going to watch 10, 10 talks back to back. And so I think it's first whatever way you learn tap into that. And then there are incredible resources out there. Like we've never had access to so many incredible people that we can at a touch of a button or a, you know, that we can order their thing and it comes the next day or we can just Google it and it will pop up. So I think if we're talking about racism and activism and things like that, there are brilliant books out there that we can start with.

So kind of three off the top of my head I can think of. There's The Good Ally by Nova Reed. She's a British-based anti-racism educator. There's Leila Sard's Me and White Supremacy. She has done a book for adults and for children, young people so her workbook for teenagers actually has like a reflection points and you can literally you could do it as a family like a workbook it's incredible and then maybe for UK context why I no longer talk to white people about race to just get that kind of baseline this is where a lot of people

are coming from but yeah I think think about how you learn and how you like to learn and tap in that way. And like I've been saying, you have to allow time and space for it. It's not just going to happen overnight and just click. I am still learning and I'm still, you know, every day discovering new things and challenging the way I think about things, things that I thought and said three years ago on this topic have changed and shifted as I've seen and heard from different people and that's fine but we have to allow that time and space otherwise it isn't going to happen going back quickly to resources just to finish up so it's obviously your first book the mixed race experience yeah um you and natalie you're natalie's book and then your so your second

book everyday action everyday change so it sounds like the curriculum is a work in progress But for teachers who are listening, who want to talk about this more in schools, are they able to implement your book into their classrooms? Yeah, absolutely. So it would work. The book has resources that go with it and it would be really easy to do like, for example, a six week or a six lesson scheme of work for year five, six or even secondary school year seven. And so yeah, and there are brilliant organizations out there that do produce amazing resources that you can just download and grab. But again, I think don't do that if you're not feeling confident because that can also, and that's why, so my course, the anti-racist school is all about what are the foundations

before we get to that point of talking to the children about it or the students, what about our own learning? So the anti-racist school is the course that I run. Brilliant. Well, we're going to put all the links to all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much. This has been such an interesting conversation. Thank you so much for coming on.

Thanks for having me. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.