Should I Delete That? - How sex on screen really works - with the intimacy coordinator behind Normal People, Sex Education and I May Destroy You

Episode Date: December 15, 2025

Let’s talk about sex… Today, we’re speaking to Ita O’Brien - the intimacy coordinator behind the intimate scenes in Normal People, I May Destroy You, Bridgerton, It’s a Sin, Sex Education and more…After training as an actor, dancer and movement coach - Ita created the ‘Intimacy On Set Guidelines’ - which protects actors and performers during scenes that involve nudity or sex. Her work pre-dates the Me Too movement but was bought to public attention in the wake of the Weinstein scandal. Ita explained why her work is so vital, why having an intimacy coordinator benefits everyone on set, and how creating realistic sex has a positive impact far beyond the actors on set...Ita’s book Intimacy guides us through how she helps actors create authentic sex scenes, and how we can use those techniques to rebuild a deeper and healthier connection with our bodies, create a safe space for exploration, and rethink how we navigate sex and intimacy in our own lives and in society as a whole. The book contains behind-the-scenes insights, practical exercises and guidance to help us communicate boundaries and navigate everyday relationships. You can get your copy here!Find out more about Ita's work at https://www.intimacyonset.com/ Follow @itaobrien_ on Instagram Follow @intimacy_on_set on InstagramIf you want to get in touch you can email us on [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Elliott MckayVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Sarah EnglishMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Breath and sound is what sells it. Same as a fight. You know, the person who's receiving the punch, it's like, ah. So the same with the pleasure. You know, when Harry met Sally, she taught us everything. You know, that breath. Hello and welcome back to delete that. I'm Alex Light.

I'm in Bloxman. I'd tell you what we needed for that. What? An intimacy coordinator. No, we did. Looking right into each other's eyes and neither of us knew what to do next. Oh, you teed that up so well. Thank you so much.

It's like, it's a job. Welcome back to Should I delete that. back. Let's talk about sex. Let's talk about sex, baby. Absolutely bang of that. Great guest today. What a guess? Have a conversation we wanted to have, probably for longer than I care to admit. I had questions. Ever since we interviewed the casting director Kelly, Valentine Hendry, years ago now, she did the casting for Bridgeton. And she talked about intimacy coordinators. And we were like, what? They exist. Yeah. And that was on the back.

We spoke to her on the back of Nicola Coughlin getting cast and obviously doing those like sex scenes in Richardson. And it was kind of the first time really that a protagonist had not been a size six or eight in a series like that. And it was really and she was very, I mean like, like, I don't know, sexy and free. Like I don't know. It was like tidies out, you know. It was like it was a party. It was really cool. And we loved that at the time.

love that conversation with Kelly. And then since then we were like, no, we need to know how the sausage is made. You know what I'm saying? And we spoke to Iita O'Brien, who has been the intimacy coordinator for normal people, one of the best series I've ever seen, I think. May, I may destroy you, also one of the best series I've ever seen. So good. And sex education. She has worked on everything. And you hear throughout the episode, she's got, I mean, like the biggest inventory of sex coordination, information, production. Her CV's good. It's huge, yeah.

And it was incredible to understand, like, kind of at this from every angle. And I think maybe I had been curious before she got here about the mechanics of it all. You know what I mean? Like, what are we touching and when? Yeah. But what I didn't necessarily think too much about before we spoke to her was the effect of, and the, the, the, the, the, the, the, requirement, the need for her role because of what it informs for younger people and for people viewing it. Having spoken to her, I don't see how you could do it without an intimacy coordinator

on sets. Yes. And I think the fact that we haven't had them actually is so, when you think of how we all view sex and how women view themselves and men view us as ornamental and how we have this very two-dimensional, up it goes, in it goes, that's bish bash, gosh. Sex is done, she's loving. it um like very simplistic and dangerous representation of sex right portrayal the sex has always been so inaccurate yeah but we grow up looking at it consuming that content thinking that's what sex looks like that's how we should be and we often talk about porn and the effects of porn and the dangers of porn but we don't really talk about the effects of this sort of um i don't know vanilla, like, rubbish.

I've never, totally, and I've never considered it before. And it's like, it's glaring because where else are you supposed to learn sex from, if not seeing it on the, like, that's the way you see it on the screen. And I think we are seeing it anyway, right? Like, this is kind of, as I've been thinking about it, it's like, oh, God, are we going to be seeing more sex? I thought we're trying to keep our children innocent. But it's like, well, let's be real.

Like, we are seeing sex anyway. So we're not talking about, like, putting sex in every film we watch. But it's more, if there is sex in a film, it needs to be. And I think people might feel a little bit more challenged where like normal people and where sex education, for example, two projects that Eaters worked on, have pushed the boundaries. It's very interesting to see what that boundary is and that boundary seems to be the female gays, the female orgasm, female pleasure. That's why they seem so groundbreaking.

Totally. Because it's not the sex that's new. We've always seen the sex. It's the female, it's the women enjoying it. And I think that is what has felt so incredible. watching Eater's work is like, I remember seeing normal people and being like, whoa, yeah, I feel like I've never seen sex like this before ever. No. And it's a much more accurate depiction of like real life sex, which is magic. Yeah. And also like messy and a bit

weird and like can be uncomfortable and sometimes painful and whatever. Yeah. And on the awkwardness, I mean, that's like we'll let, we'll let you, we'll leave you to know for it. But on that, I mean, like, who's putting what where you know what I mean like I had so many questions they're not putting anything near the golden triangle that's what we learned that's what we that's that's that's that's sacrosan Alex only wants her vulva to be known as the golden triangle from now on please if anyone uses any other word they're out I will lose of the golden triangle guys we really hope you enjoy this episode here's Iita hi Eta welcome to the podcast Hi Alex and M. Hello. Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming. We're delighted to have you on. Now, you are an intimacy coordinator. Before we go any further, and we have about a million questions for you, but before we get into that, can you explain to us what do you do? What is an intimacy coordinator?

An intimacy coordinator is a practitioner who brings a professional structure and process and choreography to creating intimate scenes. So if you think of a fight director in theatre or a stunt coordinator in TV and film who are going to make a really good fight or stunt, they're going to speak to the director, they're going to sort of find out what they want, say it's running along roofs, jumping from roof to roof and then hanging onto a helicopter and then jumping down and having a really good fight. So they're going to go, that's a sequence. They're going to go, great.

Okay. So then we need to practice. We need to first of all, speak to our actors. And the act might go, love this for the character, but I'm afraid of heights. They'll go, fine, we'll get a stunt performer to perform that, and then we'll choreograph it, and then they're going to jump down from the helicopter, and then they're going to have a fight, so then they're going to teach the actors those good techniques so that you can look in the eyes and right distance and how to pretend to do a punch so that it looks

right, and you can put all your force into it, and then you're going to teach those techniques, and then the stunt coordinator will choreograph. Okay, now this is what the fight is, this is who the goody is, this is who the baddie is, this is what the storytelling is. Now let's create the fight. They'll practice it. So that means that everybody's safe. The storytelling is serving character and storyline. And then everybody knows what they're doing. So when they say camera roll, so either they're running along the roofs and it's a stunt performing it because the actor doesn't want to do it. So that's that bit. And then you jump down and then you do the full-on fight and then the actors there and they're being character and you're having

wonderful fight and we're in the edge of our seats as an audience. And it's a brilliant sequence. It's serving storytelling. And you go, wow, that's amazing. That's exactly what we do with the intimate scenes. Except less hanging off helicopters, presumably. Yeah, not very often hanging off helicopters. Less heights. Yes, haven't ever done that. Sometimes. You've just explained that like a fight scene really well.

Could you explain that for an intimate scene? Okay. What your role is there? Yep, yep, yep. So, okay, let's take first the sexual awakening of Marianne in normal people. I'm so pleased I was going to ask you about that one anyway. I'm so much you brought us that one. Yes.

So, actually, when we shot that scene, it was the very, last intimate scene that I did in block one, which is all the scenes that Lenny Abrahamson directed. So actually by then we knew the process. So again, I've spoken to Lenny, checked him with Paul and Daisy, really important scene, isn't it? So you've had the character of Marianne, sort of they've had a kiss earlier. You know, she's already said to him, I like you. And then at her house and then they have the kiss. And then she says, can we take our clothes off now? And he's going, no, no, wait till Saturday. I've got an empty house on Saturday. So this is, the Saturday, and what I love about Sally Rooney's writing, and again, which is what we

really wanted to get into the storytelling, is Marianne's autonomy, is the one that she's saying, can we take a clothes off? She's saying, have you got a condom? So, first of all, subtly, that's so important, isn't it, for us girls? You know, that her empowerment, her knowing what she wants and her asking for it, even though she's not experienced. So what I love about the work is that all of that detail can be there. So talk about the scene, check it out with Lenny, check it out with both actors, what are you comfortable with, then go and check out nudity and what each actress is happy to show on set, on camera, and then you go to the costume department and go, right, okay, this person's happy to show this, I'm not happy to show that, and so then you get

all the correct modesty garments prepared in the right skin tone, so it honors that person, and then the day on set, so really clear choreography, so actually that's a really long scene, and there's quite a bit that's in dialogue before it goes into intimate content. And we filmed it in a room that was built the right size as it is in the house, which is literally the tiniest box room. So there was no room in it. So Lenny and Paul and Daisy, they got into the room and they rehearsed the whole scene. And then I came in and they showed me the basic shape that they'd already created. And then we got on with choreographing the detail. So, for example, once they've taken their clothes off, it has a bit of he reaches forward and pleasures her. And then she reaches

forward and pleasures him while they're still standing. So it's not suitable for anybody in the workplace to touch their genitals. Yeah, so that's where I'll be teaching. Okay, so I'll check out where are you, you know, with the actress who's being touched, where are you happy to be touched on the thigh so that it looks right, but again, and it's in agreement and consent, invariably I call it the Golden Triangle, you know, so that's sacrosanct, nobody touches that. Even if it's somebody doing self-pleasure, it's also really important that you don't touch yourself, isn't it? because again, that's weird in your workplace, because it's not just about you. It's about all the crew we're watching this.

So still, where can you touch? What's the rhythm? And invariably, you're looking at what's being shown on camera will probably be from hip bones up. Yeah, so actually what sells it is the movement of the arm, yes. And the person who's receiving the pleasure, the breath. Yes, and what they're receiving. So that's what we're looking at. Technique, where to touch, where to anchor, what the energy is, what the rhythm of that is.

And again, when that touch is there, then the touch is there, then the rich. rhythm that the person who is giving the pleasure is doing can be received by the person who's receiving the pleasure. So you can see the movement of the arms. And then what the person's so-called receiving is happening in the body. And then the breath is always, always breath and sound is what sells it. Same as a fight. You know, the person who's receiving the punch is that, ah. So the same with the pleasure. You know, when Harry met Sally, she taught us everything. You know, that breath. That, yes. So all of those details you can choreograph. And that's what's lovely that we're able to bring in now.

It used to be in that place of don't talk about it, you know, because before the guidelines, everybody was embarrassed to deal with the intimate content in an open, creative and professional way. But now that we can choreograph and we are talking about the scenes, and we can bring that detail. So Sally Rooney had put in all those details. And again, what was so amazing about normal people was that that novel, was so wonderful. And like at that summer, everybody was reading it. And also, before I even knew that I was on the job, when I was reading that, I was really aware that how she had written

the intimate content was really something special because it absolutely flowed. And she had these two people who were wounded in different ways in their lives that meant that were in dialogue and emotionally they couldn't always connect outside of, you know, and things were going wrong. But in that intimate expression, oh my goodness, wasn't it? That's what was so beautiful. about normal people. So her asking for a condom, him putting a condom on as they're still in that play of, you know, that sensuality and that sexuality, him saying ongoing consent, you know, sort of tell me if it hurts, I can stop at any moment, which is so wonderful, isn't it? You know, that idea of actually we can stay juicy. We can stay in dialogue in our intimate expression,

especially for our teenagers. We can acknowledge that something might be uncomfortable, that we can stop, we can pause, we can check it out, we can be present and take care of each other with consistent or constant consent throughout and have a really sensuous and sexy time. And that's one of the things that I was so happy, you know, well, again, that's Sally Rooney and that's, you know, Lenny Abrahamson's writing and everything. So that's, it was all there. But it was wonderful to be able to support every detail of that and to help create that scene that had such an impact. You're right, that scene is so powerful. It's actually rewatching it a few weeks ago. the normal people.

For some reason I hadn't watched the last episode. I don't know. I know. I didn't. It was only when I watched it. I was like, I don't think I've seen this. It's just so,

you've watched the whole series. It's just not the last episode. I know, which is really, really unlike me and bizarre, but I think I'm going to blame like one of my two children. But I did, I thought that as I was watching it actually,

how powerful it was. And I think he says, is it hurting? And she said, yes, but it's nice. But it's nice. And I thought that was so powerful to be watched by teenagers where it's like she's, there's an acknowledgement.

We're not pretending. that it's not painful we're not pretending any it was just so like you say it's so real and and and that was so important for me it was so important that we again in the choreography of that that that moment of penetration and so often penetration is missed but anyway let's we can get to that later but a let alone withdrawal but yes to really to to how to to to clock that moment and then to clock that journey of you know into penetration but her discomfort but just the right edge so she can say yes it's is a bit uncomfortable, but it's nice. Yeah, and that's what I want.

Hearing that now, I'm like, that makes you a better actor, right? Because it, like, it makes it so convincing and good to be supported and stuff. But I imagine you probably, at time, have to deal with both awkwardness and ego on different ends of the scale, where you've, and I'm completely gender assigning here, probably stereotyping maybe wrongly, but I imagine there are women that get awkward and men who think, well, I don't need to be too hard to do this because I'm good at sex, I'll be good at acting it. And in my head, I'm like, but then when you, You say that, you know, like, I don't know what I thought was happening, but the fact

that they're not even touching anywhere that's like, anyway, there's so much more to it than I realised. But I was just wondering how you deal with the actors as humans within this and their sort of reaction to what you're teaching them. Oh, so that is the skill. And in a way, sort of like a lot of the conversations right now where there's been possibly some pushback is, well, for me in teaching practitioners to be into PC coordinators, you know, sort of So we've created a structure. I created a structure and wrote the intimacy onset guidelines back in 2017 before Weinstein never happened.

So that gives you a structure. But then what you're offering is that structure and you're supporting, you know, sort of you take which bits of the structure you need. Like I've had situations like this where I'm on set with somebody who's the executive producer, cast number one, say 30 years professional experience as an artist. And so they really are happy. And they know what they're doing, and they have power. If they want to stop, they will stop.

But they're also working on set with somebody who's a day player, who's straight out of drama school. This is their first job on set. And they're really nervous. And that's what we're taking care of. You know, the fundamentals of the role is, you know, people say, how does the day on set go? And going, well, the day on set is actually the very last thing,

is the tip of the iceberg, all of that preparation. You know, so talking with the director, checking in with the actors, finding out how they need. to be treated, finding out what their requirements are regarding nudity, regarding touch, regarding what they're happy to perform similar to sexual content-wise, checking out, you know, sort of with the costume department. So it might be that someone's very happy to have, to do an intimate scene that has the influence of these characters being completely naked, but they're saying, do you know what, I'm on my period today. I don't want to be anything less than flesh-coloured

shorts, you know, but the director wanted to have their wide shot where they had two side naked bodies. So you're sharing that back going today, they're staying, their flesh-coloured shorts, and so camera shots have to be changed. It used to be that an actor would feel that they couldn't, they weren't supported in all those possible shifts and changes of consent. And so then them having to push through was actually what I'm supporting a producer and a production and a director to understand is that if the actor isn't personally comfortable, isn't personally feeling listen to and heard, feels empowered and autonomous, actually what you're going to see on set is every cell of their body showing their uncomfortableness because we're human beings,

you can't not. And that's what I really enjoy doing is being able to, for everybody to feel their listen to and heard. So by the time you've spoken to everybody and you come on set, that there's a parity that everybody feels that they can now do the best of their work, but I will be holding differently depending on what each person needs. So that is, the skill and it's tough and it's tough sometimes you know no it is tough you're going to be navigating and negotiating you know being cost effective for the producer listening to director making sure their vision is is what you're serving and then listening to all the cast and invariably it means having those conversations in good time like very often when you get into the flow of

filming a director's just what's tomorrow's scenes and I'm going well this is next week's scenes and I need to check in with this actress and then perhaps if someone's going to be naked or simulated sexual content, you have to write an nudity stroke simulated sex waiver. So in that case, the lawyers are saying to me, we need this at least 48 hours in advance. So then I'm saying, well, we have to rehearse. We least have to know what's going on.

And so you're navigating all of that. But once all that's done, then the day on set is people, you know, they invariably know what they're going to be doing. They know what the choreography is. Or they know where they're going to be touched. And then you can just support that choreography and stand back. and just be present with the director on monitor and let the actors fly

and really tell a really good story and do what they do best, which is act. Could you ever step in in that role on the day if something doesn't look convincing or if they're doing it wrong, would you step in? So absolutely. So for an actor with a penis who's supposed to be showing penetration,

so very often you want energy to be in the pelvis for starters. So I'll do a warm up with the spine and do a warm up in the pelvis area, perhaps do some tighty swings that literally is getting energy down into the pelvis. And then, again, to bring detail. So it's really helpful to bring anatomical detail that's going to help the actor. So very often, I will say, just think of the tip of the coxswain, yes,

in order to give that rhythm of penetration. You know, if you actually think of the penis, it doesn't actually work as well. You know, you just want to look at what's anatomically, what's going to give them a really good visual prompt, you know, an anatomical prompt to help it look, got on camera. So I might have done that. They might sort of just be rocking with a whole body and I'm going there that doesn't that doesn't quite tell the right physical story.

Just think of just tip of the coxics and really, in very able to say really pull the hip bone in towards your thigh. Because also what we're looking at is we don't want pubic bone to pubic bone. That can be painful. So we're looking at how do you, you know, the same as with a good punch. You know, from one side, the side that there, you know, the camera is, you're going to make sure that that looks like it's a punch. but if you came around the other side, it would be really clear

that, you know, sort of that they didn't ever make contact or the same with the intimate content. If it's from this side, I'm looking at what's the diagonal, you know, how we're pulling the hip bone in towards the thigh and then we're looking, so you're making sure that there's an anchoring point so that the energy from the one person is giving is journeying through the bony structure of both people, yeah, but not being pubic bone to pubic bone.

So those kind of anatomical details, yeah, so that the journey can be there and it looks right. And that's where Olivia Colvin recently, when she had to come to orgasm on Empire of Light, and I just said to her, actually the sun was streaming through the window. And I said, just lift your face and just feel that sun. And she commented on that just recently saying, you know, that really helped her again as just a prompt of how can you, you know, sort of show that place of orgasm. So that's what we're looking at is how can we give really clear choreography. And I think if it is like you're giving a frame within which, then, you know, sort of then the act can be really.

least good technique and then they can be free each and every take be in character in impulse in freedom in joy of telling this intimate moment you're obviously while you're on set and you're watching these scenes happen you're focused on you know how it's playing out whether it looks realistic and convincing but are you also tuned into the actors potential discomfort and how they're feeling because you know this is as you're describing it. I'm like, God, this is very, literally, very intimate. You know, you're simulating sex with someone who is oftentimes probably a bit of a stranger to you. So I imagine that there is a, there can be a lot of discomfort. Do you have to make sure that you're tuned into that

with the actors? I mean, again, that's, that's what I feel our role is and the opportunity to have all that preparation is that you're, yeah, and, and, um, and the focus is on how are you, you know, so in our check-ins and we're going, how are you personally today? And then right now and we'll step into character, you know. So we'll say for you personally, you know, where are you happy to be touched? Where do you want to not be touched? And very often it's not just the actor themselves, but actually who the actor's partners are. And what impact they have on the actor about how free they can be. So I had one actor who had gone away and they'd spoken to their wife, had a really good conversation. So they came back and said to me,

our agreement is that I will not touch or kiss anybody's breasts. And they will will touch or kiss my breasts. You go, great, really clear. Yeah, so within the choreography, you know, we can have touch. So you're happy with midline, you know, so that kind of parameters means that's really clear, then we can make sure that that's what we choreographed to so that they stay comfortable when someone's not comfortable, they're not free. You want to see that the characters, that the actors physically and emotionally and psychologically

really comfortable with everything that they're going to do so that when they're in character, then they can really tell a good character storytelling. So the character might feel awkward. So like on sex education, so many of those scenes where the characters feeling awkward and trying things out and not being quite right, but the actors were able to feel empowered and autonomous

and be in free flow. Does that make sense? If I ever had a script given to me, if this was my job, I'd want one where the character was awkward. Less acting. Exactly. What about ones where you have,

because you did, I May Destroy You, which is incredible and so powerful and very... Again, Michaela Cole's incredible writing. Incredible. Because it's her story, right? And she is like the writer. She's everything. It's her story. How do you find coordinating somebody's story if it's so personal to them?

So in situations like that, there's a script where there's challenging content. And then particularly if you know that it's that person's lived experience. So here, yeah, she's a writer, exactly producer, director, and star. I've had other situations where it's somebody who's a writer and director, you know, who might have had challenging, you know, that they're writing about challenging times. So what we put in place there is dovetailing with an artist well-being practitioner. So an artist's well-being practitioner is somebody who is, has therapeutic training. Very often they've come from being an act to themselves.

So it's sort of like a counsellor, but for someone who's purely underwent. what the demands are of performance and putting in place those sessions so that they can sort of have that person that they can talk to. This is my lived experience. This is what actually I might find activating within the script. And then they, you know, sort of have counseling type sessions that help them to prepare for the day on set, help them to perhaps have techniques to be able to acknowledge, you know, because again, what you don't want to do is shut down anything but acknowledge the different aspects of myself to have techniques to sort of listen to that part of themselves, but sort of like techniques to be able to, as aware, put it aside

so that they can then just carry, you know, get step into character, and then perhaps at the end of the filming, then they can come back and then reset and perhaps have a follow-up session. And then my dovetailing with an artist well-being practitioner, and obviously confidentiality is really important with the artist-well-being practitioner sessions. So the artist-well-being practitioners will check in with the cast in order to, what can be shared with me so I like say remind them like if they've got a word that helps them to you know to perhaps roses or something I don't know that would help them so that I can I can remind them the techniques that they've learned so that I can check in with them personally and so then we can

really step into character and storytelling in a really healthy way then what you were saying I'm being vigilant of going you know sort of checking in with them how was that scenes particularly if it's been say rape scenes or something like that and yeah and again what what really serves the actor. What really keeps them safe is this is this character. And I may destroy the few times that there was, you know, abusive intimate content, the really clear choreography is even more important. So in the act director process, in the rehearsal, we'll talk about the scene, we'll talk about what the power play, who's doing, what to whom. And of course, it's a reminder that in, you know, abusive, intimate content, it's not about love,

it's about power. It's about what someone's taking. So again, we're looking at this is what the dynamic is. This is what the power play. This is what the storytelling is being really clear. And then when we get up on our feet to choreograph that, then throw all emotion out and just do the bare bones of the choreography. So it's so clear, just pragmatic and actual. And this bish-bash-bosh done. Yes. And then on the day on set, we'll refine that choreography that they know. And of course, when you have a choreography that you've done in advance, the body system has a nervous system, remembrance of it. And so we'll just refine the choreography. and then we'll save the emotional content just for the take.

So we keep it really clean in that way, but that they can also really go there. And also it's that realization that you have to take care of as much, if not more so the person who's playing the perpetrator as the person who's playing the victim is actually to play the perpetrator. Invariably, people who step into this profession are beautiful, wonderful, caring, creative people.

So to step to that place that's right for the storytelling. It's really important that we have abusive intimate scenes. in our storytelling because that's our lives, isn't it? And that's what happens in the world. And like with, you know, Michaela's story, it came from her own experience of her drink being spiked. You know, so first of all, she'd really done her self-care in going to counselling, you know, sort of,

which was depicted also in the storytelling. So she was in a really emotionally healthy place. It doesn't mean that things weren't sometimes challenging, but she'd done the work to be able to then transform her lived experience into art and to serve it as art, which is where it is so incredible and so impactful. But absolutely, we were, you know, she would also call out when she needed that emotional and psychological support. And at the end of performing a challenging intimate scene, so we always then do, we've had that warm up and stepped into the scene, but we always then

step out of it. Invariably, it doesn't matter what kind of scene, you'll always do, well done, high five, invariably have a hug. But when you're doing challenging intent scene, even more important to go well done you've told a really good story in service of this production yes now let's really step away from it definitely high five a hug perhaps you know we'll do roll downs we'll do shake out whole loads of different techniques that we can use but i'll really make sure that i've checked in with that actor and we've let go in a really good way and then i always check in about 24 hours later with the actor to go were you happy any concerns because again you know you're on an adrenaline in rush, aren't you? When you're performing. And then it very often is like you've slept on it

and go, oh, actually I'm a bit concerned about this bit. And then that's where you're going to check in and then whatever you need to put in place, put that in place for the actor. I feel like you need support through that too. You know, that must be really tough work. If you compare it to something like normal people when you're coordinating and choreographing like joyful, intimate sex and then you're having to do violent and abusive content, that And I think when people think about an intimacy coordinator on TV and film, at least my mind wouldn't go there. I wouldn't think about that.

I would just think about the normal quote-unquote sex scenes. That must be really challenging to do that and to coordinate that. It's brilliant that you've asked that. It is. And it's also, it is really challenging, not just the content of the scenes, but at times, say when you've got an actor who's being dismissive of the work that you're offering, but you know that the fellow co-star that you've already checked out

with a really vulnerable and you're trying to navigate that. You know, I've had that where I've had to step in to somebody and say, great, you know, you've done, you know, so they've shared with me. I've done lots and lots of sex scenes way more than what I'm going to do on this production.

I'm fine and doesn't even want to talk to me. And I said, no, please can I step in? Please can I have a conversation with you? And I'm going, great, it's wonderful that you're empowered, you're embodied, but my checking with your fellow co-stars is that there's vulnerability there and so please can you work with me in order to support them.

So all of that negotiation and that navigation can be really, really challenging and that's where for myself and all my practitioners I ask, or my part of our techniques as a really robust intimacy practitioners is to put in place supervision. Yeah. So just like a counsellor

and has to have supervision that they go through their cases so do I invite my practitioners and for myself that we have that kind of support. I've actually been working with the lady who I go to for support, a lady called Katie Rose, since 2014. And that sounding and that going, this is the dynamic, this is what happened, this is what worked, this is what didn't work, has been absolutely essential, both to just staying emotionally and psychologically healthy on the day on set, but actually, you know, in my development

of the intimacy on set guidelines, you can imagine when I first brought together the guidelines, that was one thing, but then starting to, you know, implement it on set, working at how and when these things should happen, when the conversations should happen. So, for example, what we're trying to do is if there's, you know, heterosexual sex scene and there happens to be nothing but men, you know, male director, male DOP, everybody's men. Actually, that can be incredibly vulnerable making

for that heterosexual sex scene, the one woman, you know. And so those kind of things, you're looking at gender parity and sort of, but when do you say that? So, for example, actually on sex education with Ben Taylor and John Jennings, our very, very first conversation, they were already aware of it. And so they'd already agreed that the third AD was a woman would step in and be the first AD on set. But on another production later on 2018, I started mentioning this a week before we had

this intimate scene where, again, it was nothing but a male crew. And then it was too late. So they were sort of going, well, you're now affecting this production. adversely. So again, you know, I took that away. It was really challenging, having at chat and then looking in, when do I need to put in that conversation within the process? And so resetting, you know, what the process and what the conversations are. So, so yes, that's a really important part of it. It's both helped me to keep refining the guidelines and hopefully implementing it in a really good way. And for each, for myself and each of my practitioners, it's a really

important part of what helps us to be robust practitioners. I think it's really interesting as well. The context of all of your work has been throughout and predated, but you've done it throughout the Me Too movement and everything that's changed since, which obviously shone a really big light onto sexism and abuse within this industry. And I think it may be, obviously at the time, generated a huge and necessary conversation

and did give a lot of power to a lot of women and a lot of people within these industries to say that something had to change. And I think that the other side of that has probably been a defensiveness or a hostility perhaps from some that, like, they're missing the good old days. I think sometimes like there's this attitude

with all of these things, which are totally necessary and unfortunately come on the back of a lot of pain and a lot of requirement for change. You know, this isn't necessarily been a safe job at acting for a lot of women within the industry as it was. Is that something that you find personally difficult?

Have you seen it sort of transcend throughout Me Too and beyond? Have you felt like it's been part of this? Because I do think a lot of it's thrown out, a lot of it's dismissed by a lot of people now. A lot of this sort of thing is just woke, silly. You know, like, oh, everybody's got feelings these days, everybody's got, do you know what I mean? Like there's a lot of old schoolers who aren't necessarily

interested in this sort of thing from a welfare perspective. How do you deal with them with these people? So this is it. I mean, like with a backlash happening now, part of what my concern is, is as you can hear, it's a, the role is challenging. You know, you're helping to listen, you're serving loads of different people's requirements, you know, each different role want something different from you as the intimacy practitioner. And then it is really important that you give space when it's needed. You don't want to impose and be too much when someone's going, I've got this.

My realisation was that it's come from a place of abuse, but actually when a producer of production is putting in place the intimacy on set guidelines as a given, there is no abuse happening. And actually everybody can be joyous and creative and open and detailed and precise and tell a really good story. And actually everybody can invariably have a good laugh and a good time doing the intimate scenes.

You know, I had a producer say, me once, you're here for the girl, right? And I say, hmm, are you saying to your stunt coordinator, you're here for the goody? Forget about the person playing the badding. It's like, no, that's silly. This is a practitioner who's helping to tell a really good storytelling. And it's the same with the intimacy coordinator. We're here to support a really, really good physical storytelling. And we're here to lift the lid and bring creative, excitement, precision, detail to character storytelling. And it is interesting how, you know, you wouldn't say, oh, we don't need a stunt coordinator. Oh, I've had someone say to me, oh, you worked on season one, so therefore you're not

needed on season two. It's like, would you say, you know, to the stunt coordinator, okay, you help organise all the times that people are to fight with, you know, or shoot guns and have fights and we don't need you on season two. It's like, no, that's completely mad. But somehow with the intimacy, it feel, yes, that people don't quite, get it. Yeah, I think in my head, like thinking to, and I think it's probably because I have to engage with these people so much on the internet

and I wish I didn't, that I now have like a little zeitgeist into how it works. It feels like there's this sort of attitude with a lot of things that it's like, Tom Cruise can do his own stunts, right? So it's like, well, if he can do it, then everybody should be doing that, right?

It kind of, it's this ego toxic masculinity where I think maybe there's this simplistic thing or it's just like, well, if a woman's sexy, she'll be able to portray sex and if a man is sexy he'll be good at doing do you know what I mean like this is very simplistic

so simplistic and those yes and then the other aspect that I really want to get across is this is not just for the woman this is for everybody and actually it's as much if not more so men are fighting

you know the guys are able to say one comes out of the woodwork their stories about when they've been put upon or asked to do things that they were uncomfortable with and the other side is before the intimacy on set guidelines the times that the guy said I feel it's my responsibility to shore up.

That doesn't matter what I want. Doesn't matter about taking care of me. I've just got to take care of her. And it's like, no, that's not your job. Your job is to be the best actor that you can and serve this storytelling. And of course, you want, you know, your actors to have respect for each other, to hope you to get on well. But actually, that's not prerequisite.

If two actors don't like each other, then again, the intimacy on set guidelines gives a professional structure to go, who are you personally, and then who are these characters? And the way it doesn't matter. Likewise, if two people really fancy each other and they're doing a sex scene, even more important, again, to tell this intimate storytelling for these characters. Because again, you want to leave that at the door. We don't want to see two people's personal, you know, fancying each other in these characters. This is these characters. Likewise, there's times what it's been, you know, oh, they're a married couple. So they don't need an intimacy's cord. It's like, no, I don't want to see their personal married couple sexuality.

Also, they don't want to be exposing their married couple lives, intimate lives, suddenly up on camera. We, again, we don't want to see that. What we want to see is these characters. And again, that's what we can support. Everything that's always is, again, who's this character is, what's the storytelling and supporting that? Like, say it's a gay character on someone's straight. Like, I don't need to, again, who's someone's personal sexuality doesn't matter if the storytelling is in their lived experience and they don't need to do research.

If the character's sexual expression is not within your lived experience, then go and do your research, as will I. For example, BDSM play, you know, that's not in my lived experience, but I've done scenes that including on normal people that has BDSM play. So I go and research, what are the parameters, how does it work, all that kind of thing. So that's what, you know, you say to an actor, go and do your research. I'll do my research so you can all have a creative conversation about this intimate content. And hopefully, get to keep getting across that that is what this gives.

It's just about giving a creative process and structure so that we can all be more exciting, more creative, more realistic. Again, perhaps we can get to that in the book when the intimate content isn't realistic. It actually doesn't do us as an audience any favours. That's kind of what I want to ask you about as well, that realistic, intimate content. Because I think a lot of your work as an intimacy coordinator is groundbreaking, like normal people, in that it centres the female gaze and the desire seems to be really borne out of like context and tension rather than traditionally, as we saw desire on screen, which was smallness and symmetry and perfection, you know.

And I wonder if that's something that, has that always been important for you? Or is that something that has evolved with your work as you have evolved? Well, you know, I come from being a dancer, trained in ballet from age of three. And then I had a 10-year career as a musical theatre dancer. Then I trained it with Lil Vick as an actor, had an eight-year career as an actor. And then when my kids were young, I was thinking, what do I do when I'm out of work? That's when I found the MA in Movement Studies. and when I did that, it's like, wow, all of my dancing career, all of my acting career,

comes together in this. So then from 2007, I was teaching movement to actors and then movement directing for plays and films and all the rest of it. And when I was then working now, absolutely loving, helping to support an actor to look at who's this character, what's the physical transformation, what's the energy, what's the rhythm. The narrative was before the intimacy on set guidelines, everybody has sex. And this is your job. So you should be able to be naked to do any degree of sexual content, do any degree of sexual content, do any degree of touch because you know this is your job, this is what you've got to do. And the madness is, is the injury that comes from that expectation to be fully naked, to do any sexual

content, to be touched anywhere without agreement and consent is the injury is fundamentally emotional or psychological. So anytime somebody said, or sex seems awkward to feeling harassed, to feeling Dan Ratt abused, each of that is an injury, but the injury is emotional or psychological. And the difference was in the tipping point with the Weinstein allegations, the women finally being listened to and heard basically was acknowledging that emotional psychological injury and that's the difference. And yeah, and so the other aspects that in my reflections are that one, that the other, that without a clear structure in order to engage with the intimate content in a professional way, everybody was embarrassed to deal with it. It was the elephant in the room

that wasn't considered, that wasn't thought about creatively. And so it was just left. It was, well, you've read the script. You know what's happening. Nobody would talk about it. And then the day on set, the costume department, we go, well, these are your modesty garments. And everybody was nervous. And nobody could be open, creative about it.

So that's crazy. There must be sometimes a tension or like a frustration from the director if they have a certain vision for what the intimate scene should look like. And say one of the actors isn't comfortable with that and says, like, I want a double, a stunt, sorry, a double, a body double, yeah. Or I want, you know, I only want this part of my body shown or whatever, that must. Do you have to be the go-between? Yes.

Yeah, that'll be difficult. I'll go back and share that. But again, where sometimes it is, sometimes the director is going, I want this image, I want this vision. Yeah. But so we had a situation where it was a rights director. They had written the script. They had this particular idea for the threesome that they wanted that was really quite out there. And when I checked in with the actor, with the director, I was going, so what is the power play?

What is important that you're, that's being told here? But they were just wedded to the image. And then I go and check in with the actors and they're going, no way am I doing this? And I said, have you had a meaningful conversation with your director yet about the scene? And they said, no. And I go back to producers and say, right, this is what, this is where they're at, you know. And so through the producers and talking to the director, then we had a really good intimacy rehearsal. So you've got the actors, the director and myself as the intimacy coordinator, they start talking about the scene, they start talking about what it is, the actors start bringing up their ideas, they look at what the power play is, what's going, and suddenly this excitement of the creative vision and those images that the director had been wedded to just went out the window and actually they created something way more exciting, it went into magical realism, it went into sort of entwining and all the rest of it.

And all of them bounded out of their really, really excited about what they were going to be doing. So that is what we can do, help support that kind of thing. Back to your earlier point on the sort of abuse within it and the probably most likely young or more vulnerable, maybe female actresses who suffered for the lack of realistic and safe environments to do this. Obviously, like a massive victim of that was us as the viewer, right, particularly young women. Like we were served and have, still are largely, but have been served an incredibly unrealistic idea of sex. And like, as you were speaking, I was thinking, what is it, a good time of year for it. But in the holiday, you know, when Cameron Diaz says to Jude Law, like, I think four plays overrated. And he's like, you're fast becoming like my favourite woman or the most interesting woman I've ever met or whatever.

And it's an absolutely absurd line. And then you're thinking of like anything Ashton Coucher did anything you want. Justin Timbley did a film I can't remember there were a few like sort of mid-naughties films

with as I remember them now like the most unrealistic depictions of sex I think even the notebook like great great romantic

but completely unrealistic felt you know held up as like the most romantic film because to Al's point they're not

centering the female gays right and we're not looking at female pleasure and we're not anyway how do you think that has affected

like I mean, viewers, but also the actresses, us as a collective, how is this unrealistic depiction? And what responsibility do you feel you have in your role and we have as, or you guys have in your industry to show a realistic view of sex? That's right. As I say in my book, if the intimate content we see is unrealistic, separate from its emotional narrative, it is telling us a lie about ourselves. It's making us less honest, less open. It's in danger of making us behaving ways that are destructive to ourselves and our relationships. We nearly always see spontaneous penetration of, say, 30 seconds of kissing. Ladies, does that work?

No, we need some form of lubrication. We need some form of opening. And one of the greatest presentations to a GP by women regarding sex is vaginal pain. And that's vaginal pain because they're being penetrated too soon. There's not enough lubrication. There's not enough time to literally to be to be engorged, to be open. We know what the anatomy of arousal for men is. We've seen it.

And also I, as a mid-50s woman, recently postmenopausal, I didn't know the internal anatomy of our arousal, how the womb goes from lying flat along the bladder. And as it gets engorged, it gradually engorges and then rises until it almost becomes vertical. And as that's happening, the vagina is opening and becoming lubricated, let alone what's happening with the clitoris, as I say, the, this. size of the clitoris and the tissue of the clitoris is as much, if not more, of the tissues of the penis.

That is just beyond to me. It's beyond. See, you do have a willie after all the things. This is it. But of course, most of what you're seeing in your clitoris is just the hood, you know, and most of it's internal. So, yes, all of this is really important. And I absolutely, because yes, it's sharing with us a myth and then let alone are young people going to pornography to learn in void of really healthy sex education elsewhere.

I think, though, on that, I was thinking about that as you were talking, we know pornography is overtly dangerous, right? And as parents, we can be like, no, it's unrealistic. And I hope that that's something we can teach our kids. But I think the perhaps frustrating thing is, even growing up, I knew, I know I knew that pornography was unrealistic, but I think you'd hope maybe that you're connecting with films, particularly chicklets or Netflix or rom-coms, where you feel connected to it, it almost feels more dangerous that you're connected to a female.

character, maybe a teenager, maybe a young adult who you feel you can see yourself in in a way that we don't see ourselves in porn. You can see yourself in a miscarriage. And then to see them be, to have sex in a way that is completely unrelatable, that almost feels more demoralising and more dangerous. You're right. You're absolutely right. We need to write it better. Writers write anatomically what's more correct, you know, and then we can help make it. And again, part of my role as and intimacy coordinator, is we need to show the time taken from, you know, that initial spark, you know, that kissing, perhaps taking clothes off, what it takes before actually penetration can be really something that's beautiful and open and pleasurable and at the right time for a

woman. But again, just making all of this normal and understanding the nato of arousal, the anatomy of our dysfunction. And again, like on sex education, the wonderful work done about vaginismus, about orgasmia, you know, where people aren't able to orgasm. We need, we need. We need, it to be written better so that both for our young boys and girls and for all of us as we continue aging that our depiction of intimacy is better and then as as intimacy coordinated then we can support because we can now bring the correct choreography of that and the detail of that so it's more realistic you need loob and like as you were saying that I don't think I've ever sex education aside because that was amazing but I don't think you see it this is it not and still not enough

like Michaela Cole's period sex scene so wonderful That's stuck with me. Isn't it so brilliant? Before we came in, like that's... And I remember her saying, like, talking about a blood clock. I think they showed the blood clock. That's right. That's right.

On the camera. That's right. And I remember being like, whoa, I've never seen anything like this more on TV. And again, the reality of that and working with, and again, all of our dovetailing, serving Michaela's writing, it was so funny when I went to check in with the actor. And I was talking about the beats of all the scene, all different things that was happening and the fact that she has a heavy flow. And I love it.

that she shows her going to the loon, she's both wearing a tampon and pads, you know, which is so normal. And this is what I say, half of the population for like around 40 weeks in their life, yes, are going to be, sorry, no, it's not that. So it's 240 weeks of their whole life. If you're looking at menstruating for about 40 years of your life, are engaged in the paraphernalia of our menstruation. When do we see it in our TV and a film? Come on, let's lift the little on it. Ladies, write it better, which McCabe. did. And this is, it was so exciting, wasn't it? So the tampon being in, him asking, can I take it out? And then, and then as he takes out, the blood clot being there. And again, that's

what's so wonderful, you know, dovetailing all the different people. So the props department are the people that had to prepare the clock. And again, we were looking at what degree of that is both realistic, but also it's going to be palatable. We don't want something that's going to be too much. They're going to turn people off. All of that was thought about, was, you know, spoken was dovetel was prepared everybody at the top of their creativity so that we can create a scene that's on the nail realistic palatable but really good and brilliant storytelling we need more of it so all writers out there come on write really good intimate scenes write it better and as I say you know when a woman says no it doesn't mean that it's an invitation for the male

characters and then coerce them into wanting it's like no a no means no you know one of the things that I started doing when I was, um, started to explore the workshops that ended up sort of being the intimacy on set guidelines is looking at the power of no and what our no is and looking at the know from the different energy centres. So exciting. Um, but, but yeah, let's write things so that a man or a young boy is seeing that if a woman is saying no in any way, shape or form, it means no. But also what I say in my book is also listen, not just what to what someone says, but how they say it, what their language is that they're saying it. And so you're gleaning all of that. So the wonderful film, which is so disturbing, how to have sex by the, again,

writer-director Molly Manning Walker, you know, again, there, the coercion, you know, the character bringing her into the sea to get her wet, then bringing her out. And the body language, everything is screaming no, but she hasn't got the equipment to say no. So we, so, and that was a film that is about how, you know, the damage of that abuse and the ripple effects of that wonderful and effervescent young girl gradually just becoming, you know, sort of a shell of herself and that silence and that quietness and that damage that has been done. So I'm saying, you know, write it better, particularly the joyous, gorgeous and topically correct sex scenes. And then we can choreograph it. Yeah. And representation within that as well. The sex scenes that we

see are women in their 20s maybe of their 30s and then like I don't know you'll get some like occasional rom-com of like a parent in their 40s who might allude to having sex at some point but they probably keep their socks on and then that's like you know like barely shown you don't see older people I mean that I mean that's a huge issue with representation in every aspect of our society anyway but certainly not sexually and certainly not in films not young women and not older women anyway sorry you'll see older men this is it so again that's where I'm very excited to share my last chapter, which is the enchantress and intimacy into our older years. Thankfully, with the likes of Davina McCall and Marilla Frostrop lifting the lid off the

menopause and what it really means and journeying through it. And also all these wonderful people who are, you know, post-venopausal, who are really being vibrant and amazing, you know, Emma Thompson. Jane Fonda is just so fabulous. The speech by Christian Scott Thomas in Fleabag And it's actually word for word in my book, celebrating that. You know, what happens through the menopause. But then once you're through it, wow, how wonderful it is. Where women, where a human being who's back to who we were before we started menstruating. So, you know, of course, that wonderful rollercoast that we have every month, you know, through through to menstruating.

Glorious thing to be able to be the joy of the, you know, half of the species that can grow a new living being. and give birth. It's the most fabulous thing. And I think, you know, we're all, the three of us and mothers here, and it's a glorious and amazing thing. But it's also a glorious, amazing, when you're no longer on that roller coaster and you're back to who you are. But this period of your life, you know, like I'm going, what do I want for the next 20 years of my life? I've just been 60 this year. I'm going to, you know, for the next, you know, until I'm 80. What do I want to achieve? I've got energy. I've, you know, I've got success. I've got experience and wisdom, yeah? This is a wonderful period of our lives, including who we are in our sensuality,

and our intimacy and our sexuality. So let's lift the lid of it. You know, our generation, thankfully, is so different to the past generation, you know, thanks to medical and, you know, better health and better food. So absolutely to embrace our sensuality, our sexuality, our energy, our vibrancy, who we are both in our careers, but also in who we are in our relationships. You're absolutely right. We need that to be written.

We need wonderful, beautiful sex scenes for our, you know, postmenopausal enchantrous women. You know, our older men are allowed to be silver foxes. They're allowed to be sexy and rugged and, you know, empowered. Let's now have this for our enchantress women, for our women, you know, between their, you know, postmenopause or right through into that older years so that we know that we're juicy, vibrant, sexy people. Can we touch quickly on body diversity as well? Because that's something that historically,

Actually, currently, I think, is missing still from, well, actually, missing from the screen generally, you know, but especially in sex scenes and intimate scenes. And I think often when there has been a woman in a larger body in a sex scene, it becomes like chaotic or like funny, you know, it's not necessarily sexy. What are your thoughts on that? And are you starting to see more body diversity? see um so first of all we absolutely need that we need more diversity of all body shapes of all skin tones you know the global majority needs it's getting so much better also queer storytelling male male and female female storytelling is so much better the area that i still think needs a lot more of um you know you know characters written is a trans community in all that is so complex in all

of those journeys. But body shape, oh my goodness, I think we've gone backwards. You know, even in the last couple of years, the pressure for somebody who, if they're going to take their clothes off to become body ready, it's huge. And that's as much, if not more so, for our men now than for our women. I had the joy of working on Magic Mike's Last Dance. And Channing Tatum, as he was preparing for filming that, that spoke openly about the fact that what he had to do in order to get his body into the shape was neither natural nor normal nor healthy. And also it can't be maintained. They are working with nutritionists and, you know, their fitness coaches precisely during through to the day that

they're on set. And then they're looking at, you know, they're counting their sips of water. You know, they're only, you know, all of those amazing magic mic dances, you know, and then they're there doing with their press ups and their, you know, their resistance bands to get their muscles looking brilliant in order to then be body ready for that day on set. Now, again, that image that you're selling is not healthy, is not normal. And if that's what we're selling as this is how people should be, that's really unhealthy. And I would love this. Again, like you say, vibrancy, beautiful, curve, sexiness. And again, for me, postmenopausal. But again, I want us, you know, what the invitation is to stay in body, to stay listening to our body, feel yourself to be healthy,

staying grounded, staying, you know, connected with nature, connected with our sensuality and our sexuality, and that needs to come into our sexings so that people of all shapes and sizes can know that who they are is wonderful, sexy and, you know, and sensual. And then on that score, as you might have noticed,

the other trend is about body hair. When my daughter's, you know, she was saying, as all of her friends, were beginning to become sexually active, they instantly felt they had to shave off all of their pubic hair. And I was going, wow, this is really? And then the next trope that's happened is that because people, especially young people are feeling

that they have to shave their genital hair and then what's happening is they're seeing the shapes of their vulvers and the shapes of their inner and outer lips. But because what we're sold is the idea of the Barbie vulva, yes, which is the outer lips come together. You don't ever see the inner lips. That's actually the least.

common type of shape of vulva as we get post-puberty. And yet people think that that's the norm. And so what's happening is the rise in labia plastic surgery, the greatest rise in plastic surgery is the rise of labia plasticity, which is so damaging that our young women going to have surgically changed their inner and outer labia. And actually, there's so much part of our pleasure, you know, and our sensuality and our sexual pleasure. And so again, I want to lift the lid off that, and know that everything, every shape and size is natural and normal. God, that's such a good point about the vulva. Like, thinking about it, and it's like the depiction that we still have, you're saying

post-pubacy, like the depiction that we still have, and I mean, it is of women's bodies that society reveres, holds up to be the beauty ideal, the body of a child, of a prepubescent girl. And actually, it's probably the most disturbing way to think about it in the context of a vulva, because it's so true that as you age, it changes, but that's simply. not depicted. And again, if we're not showing it, and I think, I don't know, I feel more and more, I want more sex to be shown in all the TV that we're watching, not less, but I want it to... The right sex, well-written, sexual content. That's true, that's messy, that's fun, that's a proper depiction, but we need to write it. This is, again, call to all the writers

out there, write it better so that we conserve it and write healthy depictions. And also, there seems to be a trope as well just recently, that actually, that scenes that are still coercive that are fundamentally, you know, the man overriding the woman, a woman's empowerment. It's like, no, if something, if a man is overriding, a woman's no, then sell it as that, you know, and let us truly have characters and women, female characters who are truly empowered and are truly embodied and are truly then meeting, you know, in their sexual encounters in a really healthy way. And we don't see enough of that. We need more marians. We need, we certainly do. This has been amazing.

This has been so brilliant, so fascinating to chat to you, I'd say thank you so much. We could go on, couldn't we? Oh, my God, we could have. We haven't touched on sex education, but perhaps we'll have to do that in another day. Oh, I know. And your book is just absolutely chock full of guidance and advice, and it's a brilliant read. And we're going to put the link in the show notes. Amazing.

It's called Intimacy by ITER O'Brien. Thank you so much, so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for your interest. Also, I wanted to say. at the beginning, thank you for what you're doing. Yes, I remember particularly I was telling Alex, I felt pregnant when I was doing the two-year post-grad drama training. And all of those things, you know, my antenatal group, and they're all sort of going, oh, we're all great, we're all fine. And I'm going, I'm not great. I'm not fine. I'm really struggling. I'm not getting

enough sleep here. How do you handle this? And what I love is the honesty of your conversations, because, again, what you are doing is lifting the lid and helping a half, and helping a whole generation to go, I am normal because this is challenging and I love what you're doing. And, yeah, celebrate it. And it's a joy to come and be part of that conversation. Thank you so much. That means a lot. Thank you. Should I delete that as part of the ACAST creator network?