Should I Delete That? - How to get over a breakup… with Toni Tone

Episode Date: September 21, 2025

It’s time for a conversation with the internet’s big sister… the writer, speaker and content creator Toni Tone. We spoke to Toni about the complexities of modern relationships and heartbreak. Are all relationships transactional? Why do we seem to be shifting towards traditional values in relationships? And why does Toni think it’s so important to be selfish in our relationships? Toni’s new book No Fucks Given is out this week - it’s a no accountability guide to navigating a break up. You can get your copy here!Follow @t0nit0ne on Instagram You can listen to Toni’s podcast Toni Told Me on all podcast platforms! If you'd like to get in touch you can email us on [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Dex RoyVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Sarah EnglishMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Alex's worst nightmare is now streaming on Prime Video. They've just released a new six-part psychological thriller called The Girlfriend, and it's based on the premise that every story has two sides. It's based on a best-selling novel, and it follows the story of a successful businesswoman called Laura, whose life unravels when her beloved son Daniel brings home a new girlfriend called Cherry. Correct. That is my worst nightmare. Noelle, that's not the nightmare yet.

The nightmare is that. all might not be as it seems. Laura senses danger and the line between maternal instinct and paranoia blurs and the whole thing unravels and it's fantastic. But there was one thing I was thinking of the whole time I was watching it and it was of you, Al. Well, quite rightly because as I watched it and I absolutely loved it, but the toxic boy mum in me came bursting out as I tried to grapple with this woman's situation.

You know, there was one scene where... I know what you're going to say. Cherry is kissing Daniel on the social. and she makes eye contact with the mum who then goes and talks to her friend and she's like, no, she made her contact and her friend's like, no, you're just being paranoid.

I feel like that's hell. That is hell, because you don't, the way the show is done is so clever that you just constantly, you don't know who to believe. And I think it depends on who you are in the dynamic, right, for who you're likely to believe. I fear that I was cherry. Now I need to caveat

Lightly Cherry light I stole my husband From his mother When I took him from Dublin And I made him come and live with me in London I was the worst I was every boy mom's worst nightmare

You are my worst nightmare I am your worst nightmare There will come a day out He will have to fly the nest at some point Oh my God if he meets a little M Well God help him As long as As long as she doesn't take into another country, that's fine.

You can live in the same country, that's okay. You can live in the same city. Yeah? You can live in the same postcode. You can live next door. You can live next door to me. And so can she or he. They can live next door.

And you won't be watching through the windows. No, no, no. Telling all your friends, she was definitely looking at me while they were kissing. I'd like, you know, when you're in hotel rooms and you have connecting doors, I wouldn't mind one of those. That would be quite nice. or a little underground pathway to get through. But I will knock.

I will let them know that I'm coming. I very much look forward to hearing Tommy's recounting of this situation in a good 30 or 40 years from now. He'll be on a sofa, not quite unlike that one. Feet up, perhaps. Talking to a nice, kind therapist. She just wouldn't let me go.

She built a tunnel onto the house. The next version of this show will just be called the mother. And there will be no doubt in this new series. There will be no doubt I am the maniac. Is it paranoia or is it paranoia? We loved this series and we know that you guys will as well. The girlfriend is streaming now on Prime Video.

Social media, we're looking at Hermes Birkin bags and people in Ferraris and people fancy houses and everyone wants a rich man. think it's that simple. I think that a lot of young women are worried about their future and they think that, okay, a man may be my saving grace. Hello and welcome back to should I delete that. I am M Clarkson and today we are having a conversation with the internet's big sister, the writer, speaker and content creator Tony Tone. We spoke to Tony about the complexities of modern relationships and heartbreak. Obviously both Alex and I have been out the game for a little while now so it was great to have a bit of insight into the current climate with dating? Are all relationships transactional? Is it the case that, as it seems online, sometimes we are all shifting towards traditional values in relationships? And why is

it? Does Tony think that it's so important to be selfish within our relationships? Tony's new book, No Foges Given, is out this week. It's a no accountability guide to navigating a breakup and we'll leave a link to that book in the show notes. But for now, whatever your relationship status, we think you'll love this episode. So here is Tony's. Do me. Hello. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, we're excited to, no, not allowed to say that. Sorry. He tells us we're not allowed to say, we're excited to talk to you because we say it too often. We say, I do apologize. I say the same thing on my phone all the time to be fair. I know. It's really hard not to say it because we are, we are excited to talk to you.

Thank you for coming on the podcast. You have written your third book. Yes. No fucks given. Yeah, I'm excited. Can you tell us about it? Sure. So no fucks given is a zero accountability guy to getting over a boy.

It was birth as a result of me having been through my own heartbreaks and always getting like DMs from young women saying, oh, I've broken up with this guy or my heart's broken. I need advice. I need advice. And I just had nowhere to like direct them. And there's so much advice online in different places. But I was like, okay, I want one place where I can. can be like, okay, this is what I think about the situation and how to heal.

I just thought, no, I need to write a heartbreak book, a guide for getting over heartbreak. And yeah, that's where it came from. Me wanting to help young women and me also having a lot to say, having been through various heartbreaks. Heartbreak is the worst. Yes. It's horrible. It's horrible because you just can't speed up the time, can you?

Like the healing time, you just have to go through it. And it's just awful. And everyone, I feel like they underestimate how. serious. It can be like the gravity of it. I think it's so common. Like we've all had our hearts broken at some point. People just kind of shrug it off. And when they've healed, they forget how bad it was for them in the moment. But it can be really bad. Like I've had friends who haven't eaten because of heartbreak and got really sick. I've had friends who ended up in hospital. In my book, I talk about a skin condition. So I have Vitiligo. I talk about how my

vitiligo spread after heartbreak. It can have such serious like impacts on. physical mental health anxiety depression low mood it's intense it's intense because it can feel like a bereavement can't it because in a sense you have well you have lost someone from your life in a lot of cases yeah because you know obviously like in a lot of instances contact is cut completely and it you feel this loss that's exactly it and i made that same comparison and when we look at the five stages of grief it's not too like dissimilar to like the stages of heartbreak like going through the denial, going through the depression, going through the anger, the sadness, like it's very similar, it is another form of grief.

I am in a quite unique position, probably, smugly. I'm sure my time will come, but my heart hasn't really been broken before. Well, let's look. You'll have to be an asshole about it. But like, I've been with my husband since I was 18. Oh, wow. So we're just kind of, I don't know, just kind of written that one through. and I struggle to understand.

I'm empathetic. I can see it. I understand that it's earth shattering and it's horrendous. But I haven't experienced it. And I don't think you need to experience something to be able to help someone through it. But do you think, or what do you think, as someone who watches people be heartbroken,

but without any personal thing to draw on, when you're, I mean, I guess it depends on the friend. What are you supposed to do? In your opinion, heartbreak. Is it a tough love situation? Is it like, we're going to make you feel all these things? Because I, whilst being quite kind in general, I'm quite impatient with, like, if I think someone's boyfriend sucked and then they get rid of the boyfriend, I'm overwhelmingly happy, but the boyfriend's gone. And I don't leave a lot of space for like, I'm sad that you're sad.

Do you know why that is? Do you know why that's so funny to me? I literally got a dilemma on my podcast, what was it, two weeks ago. You don't happen to have any friends we've been to a breakup, do you? Because the person said, the person said, the person said, oh, God, is it probably You know what was so funny. The person wrote in to say that they went through a breakup and they have a friend who's been with her partner since they were teens. And her friend has never been heartbroken. And so when she goes to get advice from her friend, her friend just can't relate. And her friend didn't even like the boyfriend.

So her friend was happy that she was going through this heartbreak. But the friend just couldn't relate. Like couldn't empathize in the same way because she had. that lack of experience. So it's so funny you say that because it's actually quite common. Like you clearly not the only person. Unless I am the only person in that friend is also my friend. That would be hilarious.

I can't lie. But that's a good question. I think honestly it depends on your friend and their personality type because I'm a tough love kind of person. I appreciate tough love. I appreciate someone saying, Tony, get it together. Like stand up girl. You got to do what you got to do.

do like I appreciate that my best friend complete the opposite like she is very sensitive we we even had a confrontation once where she was going through a heartbreak and I handled it in a tough love way and she messaged me like Tony I just feel like you're a bit blunt I felt worse when I got off the phone and I ended up apologising because I came to the understanding that just because I would want that kind of support doesn't mean everyone is the same way so I don't think there's a blanket answer So it depends on the type of friend you have. Some people want those words of warm support and love and they want a shoulder to cry on. They want to vent.

Others want that motivational talk that will get them revved up and ready to like just seize the day. Everybody is different. So I guess it depends on your relationship with your friend and the kind of friend you have. Do they seem like the kind of person who wants a hug and a cup of tea and wants to come over and just chill with you? Or do they want to get in the gym? listen to like some hardcore music and just forget about it. Yeah. I don't know.

I have two different friends going through two different heart. I got two people in my life going through heartbreak. They both need different things. But I also just, I struggle to, I don't know, because I didn't like the guys. So I'm really having to be like, I'm so sad for you, but please don't get back with him. And I'm scared of being, like, I always get too scared of like being too nice and being like, oh yeah, well, you did have happy times because I'm like, I don't want them to remember the happy time. No, no, no.

Fuck the happy time. Like, fuck that guy. Yeah. But I think the two things can coexist, though. You could be like, you know what? I'm really sorry you're going through this. Like, heartbreak sucks. Yeah.

It's awful. Like, no one should have to feel like the pain of like losing someone. But at the same time, I also want you to know that I love you so much and you deserve so much more. Because they were trash bags. Yeah. I think you could do both. You could do both. Can I ask your personal question?

Yeah, of course. What was your worst heartbreak? My worst heartbreak was when I was, uh, just, before my 30th birthday, so this was about six years ago. And I had an on and off partner. We were together for six and a half years on and off. And it took up the majority of my 20s. And I thought that was my person. I thought that was it. Like, which is kind of weird when I think about it now. And it's quite silly because we were on and off so much. Like, why did I think the on and off guy was my person? But we were together for six and a half years. And then eventually

it came to a stop when he told me that actually I don't think I want marriage I'm not sure about that I question monogamy I question this I question that and I was just kind of like what the fuck have I been doing here for six and a half years you couldn't have told me this three years ago two years ago what am I doing but I think that was particularly painful because at the time I think I was a bit disillusioned

in that in my heart, I believe that my 20s were my best years and this guy has stripped my best years from me. Looking back, it's just hilarious because my 30s and 20s, they can't compare. Like the 20s were the ghetto in comparison to my 30s, right? But at the time, I was like really resentful. I felt like he strung me along. He stole my best years. And it was painful because in my mind, I thought that was it. So the thought of having to restart and not know what the future held. Yeah, it made me very anxious. That was definitely my worst, definitely. I think that's a really common feeling, the feeling like you've been robbed of your 20s. It was awful. Do you think that's worse, that pressure now?

I think the pressure has lessened, actually. I think we're seeing more women, for example, now. I think for the first time in British history, there were more women having children in, was it their 40s or late 30s, than there were teenage months, right? So I think that, in society beliefs are shifting. I think historically, the expectation was that you married by 30 years old. In the time of like Jane Austen, you were an old bride if you were like 27, right? People were laughing at you. And I think now women have more freedoms and with that comes like more autonomy to decide what you want to do with your life and less pressure. The pressure is still there because my friends, they still felt it in their 20s. My sister's 29 now. She still feels

a bit of pressure but I do think it was worse back in the day like back in the day if you were 30 so I'm 36 and I'm I'm getting married in a few weeks and if you were 36 and unmarried that was wild like people didn't do that our grandparents didn't do that everything was done by a certain time and largely for women it was by the 30s but now everyone's kind of sticking a middle finger up to that societal expectation and that pressure and being like okay who cares where did that come from and we could argue it's biology but men as they age there's like a decline in their sperm and the quality of their sperm yeah we live in a patriarchal world the pressure has always been placed on women but i think yeah our eyes are are being opened thank god yeah because i i had a similar

experience really similar actually i was just before my 30th birthday and i split up with my long-term boyfriend um and i felt like that i felt like oh my god that was my whole 20s just gone like kind of wasted i don't know i always remember from that time someone's saying talking about someone else but saying like oh they've missed the boat oh god that's awful yeah that's stuck with me that phrase missed the boat and i was like oh my god i've like i missed my god i wasn't even 30 like i was a baby did you feel like there were people like talking about you or like chitter chatter about or gossip about that situation because I did feel like ironically in my situation if I did feel pressure it wasn't from people close to me it was just

from random people I remember someone telling me like oh it's okay because you can have children by yourself nowadays I was like well I'm 29 like you will be alone forever yeah that's well find a sperm donut yeah exactly there's options I was like wait I'm I've just flurped with someone. I'm heartbroken. Like, why are you talking to me about, like, artificial insemination? Like, give me a minute. My God.

Horrible timing. I know. I know. I think that was amongst, like, older people in my life who were, like, like, like, you're ancient, 30. Like, fuck. It's like game over. Yeah.

Do you think there's an element of us, like, gamifying, dating a little bit in that, like, or I don't know what it is, but, like, the way that both of you speaking there to, like, the same experience. say it's like your 20s are wasted but it kind of feels like and I think it is a case that you invest everything in your relationship right like you kind of make it you come to a point where you're like I'm going to invest everything into this and I'm going to put all my eggs in this one basket so obviously it does then feel like a waste if if that basket ends up to be broken or whatever moldy I don't even know what the answer is because you don't want people to

love less fully right you still want people to put all their eggs in and jump like that but it feels like such a shame that that's kind of the the resounding takeaway from so many of these breakups it's like I wasted these years do you think there's an element of people knowing maybe and I'm not speaking to either of your cases

but do you think sometimes there's an element of people kind of knowing like fuck I'm angry with myself oh definitely yeah I felt that yeah but were you right to be angry with yourself do you know what I mean did you just burden yourself with that

I had this very deep feeling at the time that I've like I've yeah it was a waste I knew it wasn't right for a long time and I persevered and that was all a waste. But I really do think that like all of these experiences mold you, don't they? And like none of it was a waste. Like looking when I got a bit of hindsight, I was like, we had a wonderful time together.

We traveled. Like we loved each other's company. Like there was nothing wasted about that. But then I do think like if you're not happy and if you know something's not right, get out. Did you feel like that if you were on an on-off relationship? Did you still feel the same thing? like, did you get to a place of being like, well, it was worth something? Yeah, I definitely think that the relationship shaped me.

I wouldn't be the person I am today. Like, even if I look at my career and my writing, I would have nothing to write about if I didn't have those like failed, failed, quote, quote, relationships. But I'm grateful in a weird way to that relationship because one thing it did highlight to me, to your point, was that I was not doing a good job of prioritizing someone else while also prioritizing myself. I was under the impression in my 20s. It was one or the other.

And so having met my fiancée now, I pour into him, but I pour into him with the knowledge that I come first in that I need to pour into myself first and any excess goes into you in our relationship. But I cannot be the best version of myself in our relationship if I totally abandoned myself. And I think in my previous relationship,

I did a lot of abandoning. I was not my biggest cheerleader, I was not advocating for myself, I was dismissing my needs under the impression that it would make me a better partner because, oh, I'm centering you, but that's actually such a bad thing to do. And it's a disservice to your partner as well because it's like they want you to have a life outside of your relationship. It's not fulfilling for them when your whole life is about them either. It puts a lot of pressure on them too, and the pressure is unfair. And I think that experience taught me that. And without that, I would probably have kept making the same mistake.

There are partners that take advantage of potentially a woman's inclination to do that because women are like we are conditioned to nurture, right? That's exactly it. And I think one of the best things that you can do for yourself as a woman and I share this in the book as well is that like learn to be a bit selfish. We shy away from that and we think that it's such a horrible thing to care about yourself and to put yourself first and that women need to be all giving and super maternal and just putting everybody else before themselves.

But that's not how it should be. We've been taught to navigate life like that. But in the end, we suffer because of that. I think it's no coincidence. When you look at data, data suggests that the happiest subset in society unmarried, childless women. And I don't think that's a coincidence.

I think it's because when you are married and when you have children, everybody comes before you. But I think it's important for women to hold on to a bit of Actually, no, me first. I need to take care of myself, even when you have a partner, even when you have kids. Yeah, I always think that when you explore the word selfless, it's like, what are you, when you're talking about a selfless woman, it's like, no, you're literally telling her to be less of herself.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Less of you in this. That's a good way to put it. Whenever I think about that word, I'm going to say, mothers are selfless, it's like a synonym, like motherhood is selflessness. And it's like, great, so she's like, she's sacrificing herself. Yeah. And for what? And it's also like, it's not, it's not, I don't know, I don't think that's a good example for your children to witness either of you losing yourself and putting everyone else before

you. Anyway, that's, but patriarchy determined it. Like, it made it that, like, and I think that's, and I would, I'm really interested because you, obviously, this is your world, right, and we haven't dated for a while. I think modern dating, I mean, terrifying concept for me. But when I look at it, it feels like it's changed. changing so much within, like, I think feminism is shifting dating as it showed 100%. And what you're saying now is like women prioritising themselves is essential. As far as I'm seeing it, and Bermond, I am not in this space. But I'm kind of seeing two sides of it at the moment where it's kind of like we've got

more traditional things coming back where it's like, I want to be paid for, I want to be spoiled, I want to be whined and dined. But then there's the other side of the empowerment where it's like, I can, I am self-sufficient and you are nothing but a bonus. I can look after myself. Let's have a nice time like after work kind of thing. Where are we, I mean, what do you think? Can you shine a light on the dating scope for me?

I think that with feminist values being more mainstream, you are going to get pushback because how dare us? Like how dared we as women have that level of audacity where we want to take full control over our lives, our autonomy, where we don't want to be submissive in our relationships. want to be in partnership with someone, how dare we? So you have birthing from that. Well, I don't, we're not birthing from that. It's always existed because of patriarchy. You have like the red pill. Women should be seen, not heard, stay at home, cook and clean. But I also think that

on a societal level, when you're looking at the economy, cost of living, people are struggling. People are struggling. And as a result, I think that it has created a new wave of, you young women who are trying to revert to quote unquote traditional values because deep down they're actually just scared. They're scared about future prospects. They're scared about whether they can actually afford to live, whether they can afford to pay rent, whether they can afford a home. And one solution I think is to wave that traditionalist fag and say, actually, no, men should be taking care of us. We should just be sitting at home doing nothing. That's how it's supposed to be because deep down they are worried about their future and their prospects and I think

that is like the underlying thing to be honest that a lot of people don't want to talk about I think we assume that oh if we want social media we're looking at hermes burking bags and people in ferrari's and people fancy houses and everyone wants a rich man but I don't think it's that simple I think that a lot of young women are worried about their future and they think that okay a man may be my saving grace there's a comfort in that isn't there yeah sort of putting that in someone else's hands as a comfort in that and they just alleviates worry. I've actually never really considered it from that angle.

Have you? I have. In as so much as there are women who want nothing more than to stay at home and have children and nurture their children. And I find myself actually flip-flopping quite a lot at the moment with like, yes, yes, like go out work, we need equal this, we need equal paternity, We need equal everything that is going to completely level the playing field. But within that, there is an element of some women making that choice.

And obviously, that's their right also. I think the thing that I always find overwhelming there is it is not really financially feasible for so many families for one. So that's what always feels quite heartbreaking on that situation is there are a lot of women who would perhaps like to not work who can't afford not to or two. Or, you know, one salary is not enough. And I feel like there's so many economic factors within these decisions and within family dynamics now. And that's kind of what feels like a bit of a heartbreak because I don't know if anybody, I feel like the choice is being taken out of a lot of people's hands. Yeah, that's true.

Because for the people that want to, for their own personal reasons, and it's not a matter of all, let me follow this trend and feed into these values because it's trendy. But they're like, actually, no, I want to spend time with my kids. I want to see my kids grow. I don't want to be at work 24-7. A lot of women cannot do that. but it's also interesting to me how much of the conversation like centers around women wanting to spend time with their children while forgetting that also men want to spend time with their

children some men don't want to work full time either they want to work part time or some men don't want to work because they feel like they're missing out on their kids growing up so even when we talk about like preference we always assume that the preference is women wanting to stay at home Men, do they even have the luxury of that choice or will people look at them sideways if they say, I want to be with my kids. I want to watch my kids grow up. I don't want to be working 24-7. But the expectation is that they do that. So I think it's important that the conversations are being had. So we can like tackle those like gender expectations. And I think it's good for men too because it alleviates pressure of them. Like it's a lot for I think a man to be seen as the main and sole breadwinner of this entire household, especially in this day and age. It's a lot. it's a lot of pressure for men growing up the same way it's a lot of pressure for women to be expected to pick up all the household labor that's a lot of pressure like some some women feel like single mothers they're married but they're raising kids essentially alone because they can never see their partner their partner's always working their partner has no real like input so yeah it's

really really really tough but um i think like you said the economy is is a major factor because do we even have the luxury of choice we all have to get up and and work and it's It's, yeah, it's a shame. Yeah. I very rarely say this because I very rarely, like, just it's not really my vibe, but I do feel sorry for men. Yeah, let's pretend it. It's not.

No, I know. I know. As I said it, it felt weird. But it is really, it's a really unfortunate situation in that if you end up with a, I always think this with the, like, the expectation that they are going to pick up the bill and they are going to cut, you know, early days, date. And I don't know how I feel about it, because like I say, I don't do it. But like early days dating, it's like I imagine that it, with everything being as expensive as it is,

it's like it's a lot of pressure. Yeah. And it's like, and it feels like it's such a shame that there could be like an economic factor that might close a door on a relationship that had the potential to run forever and ever. But because he wasn't chivalrous, because he couldn't afford to be. He lost it. Yeah. I know. That's true.

It's sad. Yeah. On one hand, it's like, okay, you're also, to degree, you filter out the people that. that aren't there for you to a degree. Because I see like, for example, conversations online where some, I've had acquaintances say that if a guy's not taking you to a restaurant and spending at least this amount on the Thursday, he's not interested. And I'm like, okay, whatever happens to like actually get into know each other?

First day it should be like hearted, you grab a coffee, go to a museum, like something where you can actually have a conversation, right? So on one hand, you're filtering out the people who aren't really there for you. But on the other hand, maybe there are some people who would have been there for you, but you just, that coffee, you can't even. afford that coffee that week or you have to push it back after payday yeah it's a lot it's a lot yeah i thought economics need to get out of dating and i don't know how they're going to do that i guess like but when you look at it historically dating was largely because of economics or at least marriage

and relationships like you you married because you wanted to elevate your family in society you married because there was an economic advantage to marrying marrying for love is actually quite a modern thing, a modern concept. Back in the day, everyone was marrying as part of like bartering. You would give your daughter's hand because this man had this many goats or this man had this house or this family had this ship. And now it's all about, it's all about love. It's all about love. Yeah, Davis and Cotney goats. This is a shame. My dad has some goats. Maybe that explains my marriage. I don't know. I do find me, I think we, um, I think we discussed it on the podcast actually the topic of like the like the split in in spending when it

comes to dating and it's quite interesting isn't it it's like do you talk about that a lot do you get a lot of questions about it um i do and i don't i get questions about it but i don't really entertain those questions because no because people like oh tony what do you think about this and 50 50 and what do you think about um the fact that my boyfriend is making me pay for part of the holiday or what do you think about the fact that I have to pay part rent or I don't really entertain it because I think when it comes to the finances within a relationship that's between you and your partner because there are like nuances to consider right like not every relationship is different if you and your partner and around the same salary then I think it's more than acceptable for

you to both input financially right but then if you're with a man who's a multi-millionaire and you're on minimum wage why the hell are you paying towards your rent and your vacation makes no logical sense to me. So I think it's just a matter of your actual relationship, the unique situation you're in, the financial situation you're in, and also the expectations you have of each other. There's no blanket answer because everyone is earning different amounts of money. If my partner and I, we earn a similar salary, so I can't imagine a life where he pays for absolutely everything. And I think our standard of living is also better when I'm willing to input financially and he's willing to input financially. But if I was just like,

I'm going to take a back seat, then our life will be completely different. We're not going on as many holidays where we don't have nicer things because everything is on his shoulders. But equally, if he was worth half a billion dollars, I don't think I'll be sticking my finger in my purse. But it's like a respect thing, right? Because it's like if you were a millionaire and you're with someone who's like, you don't want someone, you don't want the person that you love to struggle, right? Yeah, that's it.

And if they're sacrificing. And I feel like that's kind of what lacks when we, because we get emails like there sometimes and, you know, when these problems arise, it's like, I think fundamentally the money is irrelevant. It's the way that you feel within the dynamic. So if you're having to provide more than you feel is fair or more than you physically can and you are having to sacrifice because of that and your partner is happy to watch you sacrifice, then there's a fundamental lack of respect and that's the problem. It's not the money. Yes, exactly. It's how happy they are to watch you do that. That's such a good way to weddick.

But I find it, I, I'm really conflicted when I'm trying to work out where I'm out on the, and it's irrelevant because I don't have to have an opinion on everything. But like, when I look at, like, friends or like women I know or people online who are like, I am so empowered that he has to buy me. Like, I am worth that much that he has to. I'm like, I can't, we've gone so there, we're there. I'm like, are we. I struggle with that.

But are we there? Like, is it good? Like, and I don't know. It's not for me to make, I'm not the proprietor of what's good or not. So I don't know. I think there's like there's nuance in it, isn't there? It's like, I mean, I guess when you're like first dating, there's obviously like the tax of being a woman dating.

Like even before you've got to the date, you've spent a lot more than a man has on like your hair and makeup and blah, blah, blah. And then you might have to get a taxi home rather than the tube because of safety. So I guess there's that involved. But outside of that, I don't, I don't see. If that's the, if that's your approach, then me. maybe you're satisfied being bought. So if you put yourself as like, if that's the kind of like,

I don't know, maybe that's like kind of your vibe. And you're like, that's what you're saying. You're like, okay, well, this is transactional. Like I'm satisfied with the transactional relationship. I do think some people are, but they try to word it in a way that like intellectualizes it a little bit more. But the truth is they're not looking for a loving, partnership that is built on mutual values and true deep love for one another, it is transactional.

You take care of me. I scratch your back. You scratch my. You take care of me financially. I'll take care of you in other ways and we'll keep it pushing and that's what I'm looking for. And if that's what you're looking for, I think that's totally fine. But it's the transparency of that in your dynamics and those interpersonal dynamics.

The person you're dating, are they aware that your heart is not in it. And if they are aware and theirs isn't in it either and theirs is transactional too, then it's okay like the conversation for example like around gold diggers to me it's like oh null and void really because if a woman is in it for the money but the guy she's with knows that and he's in it because of her appearance and what comes with being beside her then it's mutually transactional they're consenting adults the issue is when one person is disillusioned and relieves there's some deep passionate love there when there isn't well I completely agree in that that conversation's interesting because I think sometimes

people conflate investment, financial investment with emotional investment. And what they fail to realize is that for some men, taking you out for a 300 pound dinner is nothing. It's nothing. He could buy you a designer handbag tomorrow and it's absolutely nothing. It's a fraction of what he earns in a day, let alone a week, right? And some people would see that kind of gesture as meaningful, oh, he must be. really, really like me. He took me to this restaurant in Mayfair. He bought me this designer bag. He must really, really like me. But how much effort did he apply to do that? There are some men who may not buy you those things, but they're taking their time to plan the dates,

to find out what you like, making actual effort, doing things that are sentimental, even if they gift you, it might not be expensive, it might be truly sentimental. But the amount of investment they put into making you happy versus someone who just bought you. something you can't compare but I do think unfortunately there are young moon who think the value of an item is indicative of something much deeper than it actually represents I think that applies the same pressure then to the men as well that's like well if that's the competition and that's what I you know that's how that's the key to a woman's heart yeah I'm feeling like a real oldie like I know archers listening radio four like I'm fitting knitting just like moaning about

young people and their peculiarities. Yeah. Well, this all seems like frightfully complicated. It's a shame, isn't it? Online dating has probably not helped either because I think like we are in this like microwave dating era where everyone wants things quick and fast and there's the illusion of choice.

You hop in an app there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people and you think, oh, okay, this is what dating is like because they've never dated in the traditional sense. And it's like, oh, you just pick someone based on how hot they are, Bob's your uncle. And then if it doesn't work, I just pick another person, then pick another person, pick another person. And I think that has made things feel more transactional too, unfortunately. Do you? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I mean, not to say it's all bad because I have friends who've met their lifelong partners from online dating.

Yeah, me, I did. Yeah, so there's good there. But unfortunately, there is, of course, a bit of bad. It's there an element that, like, relationships just by nature of what they are transactional. yes deep i like it i think i think yeah no it feels philosophical that it does i like it i'm capable yeah i think yeah i think they are in their sense that relationships are at least what we would define as a loving a long-lasting relationship is heavily based on reciprocity i.e. would any of us be in a long-term relationship if we were pouring into someone and getting

absolutely nothing back? You give because you love and you give with no expectation but the reality is you require reciprocity and should you keep giving giving giving giving and getting nothing back suddenly an expectation does form and you're like actually this is this is this isn't gratifying, this isn't satisfying for me. So I do think inherently, yes, they are transactional, but they're transactional in a way that they're subconsciously transactional. It's not at the forefront of our mind when we're in a loving relationship to be like, okay, I'm going to make dinner for my wife or my husband and I'm going to expect sex and I'm going to do this and I'm going to expect that. You do things out of love. But you're

subconscious is very aware that should you keep doing things out of love and getting nothing back, it then becomes, it's not worth it. It then becomes questionable. It's labour. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, two people being of service to one another. That's exactly what a relationship is. Yeah, it's interesting then because you've got your love languages and I don't know, I feel like it's so much more practical than the films lead you to think. Yeah, there's more thinking. The Hollywood kisses. Yeah. what happens after the happily ever after you know who's splitting the mortgage and what whose name is it in yeah so there is so much to it isn't that who's doing the akado shop

thinking about love languages alone it's like a minefield and I'm like stunned that any of us have long-lasting relationships because I'm like how do you get these two people that are so you never marry someone with it fundamentally different yeah you never marry someone you're compatible with as far as I can say I don't know anyone that's married happily that's compatible and that makes no thing love language yeah that's what I mean yeah like nothing makes any sense. Me and my husband, total opposite. Why is that? I do think that you do find a lot of opposite couples because you create a sense of like feng shui. You bang and yang, you balance each other out. Yeah. I think you create an element of balance. I think that for a lot of couples, even the ones

that are opposite, there is like a foundational thing that keeps them together. So shared values or shared vision for the future and shared goals. There's something that keeps them connected. But I do think there is like a beauty in being different in otherness, in your partner having strengths in areas where you have weaknesses and vice versa. And I think we are drawn to people who are a bit different from us. I see it with couples all the time where one's like an extrovert and the other is an introvert. And you would think they wouldn't be together. But it makes so much sense because they balance each other out. And I think there's like a beauty in reaching that equilibrium. And for a long time when I was in my 20s, I could have sworn up and down. I wanted

to be with a man who was just like me. Like, oh, if I was with myself, life would be easy. Like, if I was dating myself, it would be easy. Now I'm in my 30s. I thank God that I did not end up with someone like me. Like, I joke with my partner all the time. I'm quite stubborn. He's stubborn in his own way, but when it comes to our relationship,

he's often the person who is the bigger person more frequently. And I've learned from him to apologize and, you know, to make the first move. But had I been with someone like me, it would have been a stone wall after an argument like I just don't have the patience for it and I'm also someone who historically is quick to like depart from a situation when it feels uncomfortable

I don't have time for this and protecting my peace but really it's a defence mechanism whereas he's someone who really wants to like work things out and have a discussion and had I been with someone like me the few occasions where we have like faced hurdles I would have been like oh okay deuces see ya

nice knowing you like see you later whereas with him he's like Tony like this is not that deep let's just have a discussion about this and I'm like this is this is new for me yeah so I think that it's nice to be a bit different would you say that same with you and your partner oh my god 100% like I am anxious neurotic like overthinker doesn't even cut it like I'm a overthinker on steroids and my part like my husband he is laid back to the point of being horizontal he's gentle he's like just very level-headed and stable.

The calm to your storm. He's literally the calm to my storm. So when I go up there and I'm in like a huge spiral and like a big hurricane and he's just like, come on, like let's perspective, let's bring you back down. Yeah, that's so true actually. I don't think, no, I know I could not be with someone like me. It would be horrible. I don't think there is anyone like you.

No, my God, no. It would be horrible. Yeah. Yeah, it's a funny thing, isn't it? because that's not what, like, you think the great romance is written, like, that you don't think that's what love is. Yeah. And I feel like maybe you said earlier, like, your 20s were, like,

just nothing compared to your 30s. And I think you put so much into it. Like, I'm going to find it all, and it's all going to be, like, whirlwind of, like, love and greatness in my 20s. And then actually the practical sets in, and it's like, no, this is, and I keep seeing this thing on TikTok and Instagram at the moment, and it's like, it's a meme, but it's like, this is the person, that I'm going to bury my parents with.

This is a person who's going to be with me when my children come into this earth. Like, yes, I'm going to be selective. And I think that's like when we're chasing the thrill or whatever it is with your lot, you know, with that sort of the way we view dating and we view love. And it's actually like, no, you need someone who's going to be safe.

That's it. You need to come home to someone who's going to really be there for the tough moments. And I don't, like, you don't get better in the apps. Listen to me. I'm the oldest person on this earth. Like, yeah, but I think that's not, I know, literally, but it doesn't feel like that's what is, like, I feel like that's, it's not sexy, right? They're like practical.

It's not sexy. And I think, I wrote about this in my first book about how many people look for intensity before they look for true intimacy. And intensity is found in lust. It's found in infatuation. It's found in all those things that actually long term don't mean that much. When true intimacy is finding someone who is home, you are grounded with this person. Like they are a safe space. And I've been in relationships before where I've had ex-partners who have alluded to the fact that our relationship was boring because it was peaceful.

I remember feeling less than and thinking, well, am I supposed to be like throwing plates and cussing you out and being a super fiery girlfriend? Like I thought this was a good thing. But having come from the homes that maybe weren't a stable. was the kind of home that I came from, their understanding of love was completely different. And I think that, unfortunately, there are a lot of people, and I think this feeds into people struggling with heartbreak and healing from heartbreak.

And in no fucksgiven, I mentioned the fact that nostalgia is very dangerous. And infatuation is also very dangerous in the sense that we can find ourselves, like, mourning somebody based on the idea that, that we have of them or the potential we saw in them and not the reality or the feelings we felt when things felt good, the lust, the sex, the intimacy, whatever, without actually reflecting on whether or not this person was a good person. Was this person kind to me? Were they loving? I remember seeing a quote and I shared this in the book as well. Someone said, if your partner couldn't tell you they love you, how would you know they do?

And I remember my friends and I talking about this and it seems quite simple, right? Like if they can't say it, how would you know that they feel it? But it had a lot of us going because so many of my friends and people online realized, oh shit, like I hear my man say it. But when I think about how I would know he loves me from what he does, he doesn't actually do much to make me feel loved or make me feel seen. And I think when we think about things like that infatuation and that intensity, like it's very much rooted in things that aren't that meaningful. Like, oh, this person tells you, you're sexy, your heart, I love you. It's all great.

But when you're in need, are they there? When you are in distress, are they there to ground you? When you require support, do they listen to you? Do they validate your feelings? There are a lot of people who unfortunately can't say that, but they think they're you're in happy relationships because their partner's sexy. The sex is great. Their partner says, I love you, baby.

And it's all wonderful and it's exciting. And I've got butterflies, but is this person actually home for you? Oh, that's so lovely. Do you think modern dating, or the way that's review it, social media and things like that, the expectation that we put on relationship, do you think that relationships, do you think that changes our hopes within ourselves? do you think this idea that things are boring like gets us

you know our dopamine we're all short wide we do 30 seconds videos do you think we're all just like next one like this is not can't this is too calm yeah I do think that comes into play and I think if someone hasn't done the inner work

then yeah it's very easy to like fall victim to that and think that oh relationship should be on the go exciting all the time and comparison is also dangerous and one thing I've said is being someone who's in a relationship that is publicly shared on social media in so many different ways. I say to my followers all the time, my podcast listeners, like,

never compare your relationship. Never. Don't do it to my relationship or your friend's relationship, anybody's relationship. Because what you see is a highlight reel. If you're seeing my partner and I, for example, where you're seeing us go on holidays, you're seeing us have this, like,

long-distance relationship that seems super exciting. But when I'm in, like, my hair bonnet, late at night, eating flaming hot Cheetos in my bed, and I'm crying to him, about how I miss him and he's moaning about work and he's just like pissed off because his day's been super annoying and can't get the leave to come visit me or like we're going through real relationship things or we're mowing about the invoices for the wedding and how are we going to pay for this and how are we going to pay for that that's not the stuff that we're

necessarily platforming so I think that sometimes people see social relationship content on social media and they think that relationships are meant to be this like exciting on the go fast-paced thing when actually, I think the most ideal relationship is find someone you can do the boring stuff with. Find someone that you can suffer with. And not because they're causing you suffering, but in life, like shit gets real. And you're going to have your dark days. And like you said, like, that's going to be the person that will bury your parents with you. That's going to be the person who's going to be with you should, God forbid, there's crisis in your life. Find someone you can do that mundane stuff.

with and you still want to be there and I think we look for the person that will bring the excitement into our life when really no we need to look for the person who is joy in the mundane I think like that's the ultimate relationship like even in the boring even in the like day to day I still want to be here with you doing this taking through our finance sheet I still want to be here with you in the grocery store picking up the groceries I want to be here with you when you need to pop off and do this errand like I just want to be in your presence because I love you not like oh i'm only having fun with you when we're going on holiday it's so nice to hear all of this because i feel like it's just not a perspective that we

see on social media yeah it's like yeah like traveling like doing fun like crazy stuff together and it's all like the high you know fast exciting stuff yeah and actually you're you're so right it is in that more the more mundane aspects of life where you will find your you know your like true partner yeah and i think that's the difference between the couples that last and the couples that don't and don't get me wrong like even the couples that they're happy existing in the mundane they're going to have those exciting moments those exciting trips they're going to have all that stuff but i think the difference between the couples that last and the couples that don't it goes back to couples chasing intensity and couples chasing true

intimacy like what does true intimacy look like and true intimacy while it can exist in intensity it exists in all states of being like not just in the intense moments in the mundane moments too you're so wise thank you you're gonna give Dave the biggest hug I feel like I want to go I don't want to give Dave a hug I can see like the appreciation for your like partner as I'm speaking like yeah I know I know because you said something that I've always thought in my head of God is call me I'm saying this out loud but like I've always thought of it like it's he's like home that he feels like I love that home to me like I don't know I just feel good when I'm I feel safe when I'm around him and he's like and when you said that I was like oh my

god that's exactly how I feel about him I think I've just never said it out loud so now you should go say it to me go home you're going to listen to this yeah that's the dream you'll never know yeah that's beautiful yeah that's beautiful feel vulnerable it's been so so nice to talk to you oh thank you for having me thank you i appreciate it yeah it was really lovely and i've had such a good time your book is out this week yes no fucksgiven no fucksgiven september 25th available for pre-order now i'm hoping none of the ladies listening are going through a breakup but if you are do do grab the book and maybe you know you know someone who is going through a difficult time i need to grab this book because i need to learn how to be empathetic and stop my friends writing into your podcast containing it

My lack of empathy. I actually just think it's a really good resource to have because whenever, I mean this hasn't been for a while but like my friends or my sisters would go through heartbreak, I would buy them this like this little book that's like, I can't remember what it's called, but like basically I have to get over heartbreak. But it's tiny and there was not much to it.

And I was like I need to give them something more like a manual, a guide, like something that's going to make them feel seen and help them to heal through this horrible time. So I think this is a really cool research. resource, not just for people listening that's like just for themselves, but like to gift other people who are going through heartbreak. I think it's a really cool, really wonderful gift. So thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Leave the link in the show. Should I delete that as part of the ACAST creator network?