Should I Delete That? - “I brace myself for sexism, misogyny and racism” - Eni Aluko on being a female football pundit

Episode Date: October 5, 2025

We have a Lioness in the studio! Today - we’re joined by Eni Aluko. Eni is a broadcaster, football executive and former professional football player who has represented England on the world stage and at the Olympics. She’s also a qualified lawyer - there’s nothing this woman can’t do. Since retiring from professional football - she has become one of the country’s most recognisable football pundits. As a former international player, with a lifelong passion for football - Eni is more qualified than anyone for this role - however, the culture of racism and sexism around football has made it an toxic environment for her. We spoke to Eni about the reality of misogyny, racism in football, how she has dealt with the online abuse she is subjected to and how we can move forward to make football a better (or at least more tolerable environment for women) Follow @enialuko on InstagramThank you to Refuge - the UK's largest specialist domestic abuse organisation - for making this conversation happen. For support with tech-facilitated abuse, visit www.refugetechsafety.org Refuge’s National Domestic Abuse Helpline is available on 0808 2000 247 for free, confidential support 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. A live chat service is also available from 10am to 10pm, Monday to Friday, and from 10am to 6pm on weekends. For further information and advice, visit www.nationaldahelpline.org.ukIf you want to get in touch you can email us on [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Elliott MckayVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Sarah EnglishMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Anyone who's different to the crowd becomes an easy target. And so I'm an easy target. Like, it's just got to a point where it's irrational and actually just me being on screen without speaking is a problem. Hello, and welcome back to Should I Delete That? I'm M Clarkson. I'm Alex Light. And what I guess we have for you today.

We love Annie. The incredible Eni Aluko came to talk to us today. We have wanted to talk to her for so long. She is an incredible sports pundit. She played national. You sound what it's called national football? She played for England. She played for England.

She played in the Olympics. She was a Chelsea player alongside being a lawyer. Because as you do. That's female sport for you. As you do. Well, exactly. We'll get into that. We were so excited to talk to any about women's sport, women in sport,

female pundits in sport. We covered the lot. And it was a really brilliant interview that we're excited for you to go. to hear. Often with these interviews, we want to end on a happy point, right? We want that to be like, okay, and then we all skipped into the sunset and that was a nice chat. The reality of the polarising nature of our politics right now, the reality of our misogyny within sports of our... And racism. Yeah, a huge racism within football is that it's making the landscape

for any and for players, for female players, for women of colour, for people of colour in this sport, really hard. Not even just hostile, but intolerable. Completely. As you'll hear from any who's had to remove herself. So yeah, it wasn't, we weren't able to sort of put a bow on on the interview and package it up nicely because it is the harsh reality of this and what any has to face. And that's the important thing. I think that's the main takeaway I have from this is sport, women's sport is growing exponentially and it's so exciting. But there's a lot we need to do within that to have really important conversations, safeguarding things. We've got to do our utmost to ensure that this environment is as safe as it can be for the people within it.

And right now it's not. And we need the people at the top, the people with a huge amount of power to step in and make these environments more just not even just easier, just tolerable for women. Now we know those people probably aren't listening to our podcast. No, maybe. We all have a part to play in this. We do. Being aware of the landscape, and being aware of the landscape, aware of our own parts in

it, aware in every sense so that we can challenge it, every opportunity we get. So this was an incredible conversation. I'm doing that thing again where I've decided I want to be best friends with someone to come on the podcast a lot

I do do this a lot that says a lot about How many friends have you got how many friends do you have from podcast guests? I not as many as I'd like It's not for lack of trying on my part

I haven't felt like this No since we have Pacey Mood on but after any left I was like I'm going to do it again I'm going to weird it I'm going to yeah she's great yeah I'm going to fight hard for this friendship

she's going to be like fuck Off. It was a nice chat. Let's leave it there. Guys, without further ado, here's Eni. Hello, Annie. Hello. Thank you.

So I interrupt you like three times as you're trying to reply to me. Sorry. How are you doing? I'm very well, thank you. I'm pleased to be here. Thank you. We were just saying before we started recording, we're obviously doing this off the back of the Rugby World Cup.

Yeah. which has been amazing and it's just like another elevation for women's sports so it feels quite timely to have you here yeah i mean women's sport is just having you know another moment right and that has been part of many moments over the last 10 years of growth of of just positivity of inspiration um and you know the lionesses obviously did it in the in this summer with winning the the euro is back-to-back, which is an unbelievable achievement. Now the roses have done it in rugby, and I'm just so pleased for what is happening around the world of women's sport you're seeing with the WMBA also in the US, just such

growth and growth in a way that I hope is sustainable, you know, and but it's also the impact on young girls and the next generation and women and confidence and, you know, all of these sort of byproducts that, that I think have a huge impact on women believing they can do it and confidence and all of these things that I really love. It's very uniting. It's very kind of, it just has this positive energy. So, yeah, I'm really proud of women's sport. and I just hope it continues. I feel like it will. I feel like there's too much momentum now, right,

for us to go backwards with it, do you think? Yeah, I think, I agree. I just think the risk is always trying to go too fast too soon. Like burnout. Burnout. You know, throwing money at something. You know, I think we have, in women's sport, we kind of have second move for advantage

where we can kind of look at what men's sports, well, certainly football, we can look at what men's football has done and go, that didn't work for them. Men's football has hit a ceiling financially, and now they're trying to really regulate the game. I think my only fear is that some of the sort of pitfalls that have come in the men's game start to creep into the women's game. And what I mean by that is, you know, agents trying to, you know, extract as much money as possible from the,

game when it's still growing or brands kind of jumping on the bandwagon for a moment but not really investing long term like there's all these things that I think we just can do it a different way and be more sustainable that I just think we need to keep an eye on but other than that as you said it's the exponential growth the momentum has been incredible and in many ways all boats have prison at the same time. You know, if women's rugby is doing well, that has a positive impact on women's tennis and women's football and netball and basketball and all of those things. I think it's just really nice to be part of that sort of community and that ecosystem. I think it's inspiring as well, not just the younger generation of girls, but our generation

as well because I'm seeing loads of people signing up for netball or doing like football, like going to a five-a-side team or something like I want I'd love to do that yeah you should famously but that's really cool as well isn't it it's just like obviously that's really important the younger generation because they're going to grow into the you know the the athletes of the future but for us as well it's really cool you're so right and and that doesn't get talked about enough actually I think we do focus on the next generation but you're right I think the impact it um you know I always think about women's football or women's sport as a movement as an equality movement, as an empowering movement.

For those of us, sort of from our generation, I mean, I'm 38, I don't know if you guys are similar age, but it's not been easy, right? Like we kind of grew up with all these gender norms and, you know, this is what you're supposed to do. And I certainly grew up being told that football was like a bit of a weird thing for me to be doing. And so there's all these sort of confidence challenges and self-esteem issues that that I've had along the way, that now I'm seeing all these women doing amazing things, it empowers me, you know, and so I can't even imagine how that feels for, you know, even women that don't play sport, you know, I speak sometimes at, like, corporate, in corporate

environments or law firms or banks or whatever. And there's so much synergy between what women are doing in high performance environments and women's sport. And there's so much transferable energy that you can take from that by saying, wow, these women are like going for it without caring about anyone who's telling them they can't. And that has an impact on, you know, a lawyer who's trying to make partner who's like, oh, you know, I've had so many people tell me I can't do it, but now I'm like, I'm going to go for it. And that's kind of the community that I think it is. So you're bang on. I think it does have an impact on many women

who haven't always been in a space where they feel that level of empowerment and confidence. That's so true, a big ripple effect. Yeah, I think so. It must have been hard growing up playing football and being told that it's a weird thing to do or like not a good thing for you to do because being a professional athlete,

even when you have loads of support and people are encouraging you is hard enough, you know, but without that. Yeah, well, I grew up in the 90s where it was like, it just wasn't even on TV. Like, it just wasn't accessible to me. But all I knew is that I was good at football and I had this gift.

And, like, I was happy when I was doing it and I was doing it with boys. And luckily for me, for me, for my young age, the boys kind of took me under their wing and made me feel like it wasn't weird. But when I went to play, like, at schools and, you know, other environments, I was definitely told it was, like, weird.

and, you know, I remember, I can always remember this. I was about eight. I was playing with the boys' team. And parents were complaining that I was playing because I was sort of dribbling around their boys and parents, like, complained to the referee saying that the rules don't allow for girls to play. What?

And I can never forget that. And it's amazing how those things stick with you. I mean, 30 years later, I still remember that. And I remember feeling so just. just unwelcome right and I went back home and I told my mom I said oh you know I don't think I wanted to do this anymore and my mom luckily was like no that you know you're talented you keep going and um but that's that's kind of the story of a lot of female players who grew up sort of in the 90s and the 40s where women's football just wasn't what you did and we kind

of had to just play it as a hobby and find other careers you know I sort of went to law school qualified as a lawyer, I thought I'd be a lawyer, and then it all kind of changed, and I became a professional footballer because of the, you know, there was a bit of a C-C-C change in the UK. But growing up, it wasn't easy, you know, I had to kind of just stick with it, even though there was a lot of people saying it was a strange thing to do it. Am I right in thinking that you graduated as a lawyer? I don't know what it's called when you graduate as a lawyer. Qualified as a lawyer. At the same time, Or the year after the Football World Cup?

Yeah, so I went to law school 2005 to 2008. And then as soon as I graduated law school, I went to America to play. And I went to America largely because there wasn't any professional opportunities in England. But there was a professional league in America, which is much more advanced in terms of women's football. And then after three years in America, I came back. And I remember, this was like 2012. I came back to play in the Olympics. And I remember being like, okay, this is my kind of final swan song.

I'm done chasing this football dream in England. I'm just going to, you know, become a lawyer. So I was at law school. So I went to, you have to kind of go to postgraduate law school to qualify officially as a lawyer. And that's like a one year course. So I was doing that. whilst I was training for the Olympics with a view to be like, okay, like this football thing, like I'm 25 now, I need to grow up.

Like, anyway, the Olympics was absolutely incredible. Like, I don't know if you sort of had any chance to go to the games or any sporting event at the Olympics. It was so good. And women's football took off and everybody loved it. And then all of a sudden, the opportunities opened up to become a professional. I was at Chelsea at the time and they offered me a contract

and I was able to say well I was going to become a lawyer so you're going to have to match what I would have been on as a lawyer and then I was like right okay well I can finally sort of live my dream but it came totally unexpected

so yeah that's kind of sort of how I was doing law and football parallel that's just wild I know it's crazy could never yeah I know well we've

That's the thing. Like we've kind of always had to as women be multi-dimensional. Because I didn't grow up thinking, yeah, I'm going to be a professional footballer like my brother did. So my brother's also a pro. From the age of 18, he was like earning really good money in an academy, pathway set out for him. I didn't have that. I literally had to leave the country to chase my dream. And that was hard because, you know, 18 to 20.

it's kind of hard be, I went to St. Louis first, which I was barely located on the map. It was like middle America. And so it was challenging what I had to do to try to sort of, and so we've always had to be quite multidimensional. And if you ask a lot of players,

I mean, Leah Williamson, our captain, is an accountant. I think she's a chartered accountant. And again, she kind of always probably had to think about, well, this football thing that we're doing is women, it's always been a little bit like this might not last that long. So you've always had to kind of think about something else. And I think it's really healthy to do that. Keep your options open. Yeah. I think that's for anyone in life. I think that's a really healthy thing to do. But it must have been particularly confronting for you because I imagine for most female players, they know that it would be easier

if they were a man but for you you're living with your brother for whom it is literally easier because it's right so it's like you're not having to hypothesize a part like you can literally see it like this is a direct comparison yeah you know I I I think I appreciate my mom for this because my mom never really allowed that my mom never really allowed me to feel sorry for myself and say oh if I was a man it would be easier because I think she always saw that our paths are different and actually fast forward my brother's just retired and he often says to me oh my god you've got so many options right like you know I can do law I'm a broadcaster I'm you know you know I work as an executive in football

I'm an investor whereas he's been on one track so I think it all works out in the end and I'm still kind of you know trying to make sure I'm doing new things and but I think that's the reality for a lot of women it is going to be it is easier to be a man like let's let's be really honest it is because the world was built that way right and I think it's up to us to challenge those norms and those status quo and just go for it I think sometimes we sabotage ourselves as women you know we sort of say to ourselves we're not oh I'm not going to go for that because I'm never going to get it whereas men even if they don't have the level of qualifications maybe that women do they'll go for it and so i think there's a bit of that as well where if you go for something

of course you're going to have a better chance of somebody else um so i think we need to also rewire ourselves as women to not sabotage to have sort of positive internal self-talk you know and see ourselves as superheroes like boys and men do yeah yeah well I guess as well I mean there is probably an element as to your point earlier Al

about the self-confidence and again not to draw that direct parallel but if you grow if you see if you're a little boy and you grow up seeing football is all over the place you can dream that for yourself whereas it probably just yeah not impossible

but just much more of an effort to generate that aspiration. If you don't see it, it's very difficult for it to become an aspiration. But I always say, even if you don't see it, do it anyway, right? Like, you can become the first woman to have done something. If I said to myself, oh, because I don't see it on TV, I'm never going to play football, I would never have played football. So I think you have to kind of get past that bit as well. And sort of, again, things become the norm when they're not challenged or They're not changed. And I think the greatest changes in the world have come from women, you know,

just being like, no, I'm not going to accept that as a status quo. I'm going to go for it. So, yeah, I'm really big on that. Just try as much as possible to see yourself as capable and just go for it. Try. How did broadcasting come about for you? I was kind of always the person that was like happy to do interviews. I don't mind a chat, you know, and back, back kind of early days with the lionesses,

nobody wanted to do these interviews. And so I was like, oh, you know, I'll speak up, but maybe it's the lawyer in me as well that you sort of, in your training, you do learn to speak up for others or represent others' interests. and so I was always that person that was like happy to do that and then you build relationships with media by doing that and I just started getting sort of different requests to oh can she do this interview can she come in and do a studio here or whatever and I took the opportunity and I did it and it became much more frequent

and then I got an agent who was quite strategic about me doing different things and then I sort of made my big debut on Match of the Day in 2014. And that was kind of, that's when I sort of went into mainstream, sort of became a mainstream broadcaster in the sense that millions of people watch me on TV talking about football on a big show. And then after that, you just kind of, you know, other broadcasters then, you know, give you a call and say, oh, can you do this tournament? So it kind of happens organically

But that initial start point was me just Being happy to have a chat with journalists and media Up until that point I don't have there been women on match of the day No I was the first I was the first female footballer to go on match of the day I think there'd been like journalists before But like I was the first female footballer yeah

I mean it was scary 2014 like for context I mean people don't need it because they've got brains but that's 11 years ago that's so recent crazy right yeah i don't know because you'll know because you've done it both we see so much resistance culturally to the women's football in such a frustrating way but i also feel that there is this resistance towards female pundits as well yeah massive resistance which i can't work out which one frustrates me more well it's both coming from the same place right so it's it's this sense that um you know it's a space that is reserved for men and they're very protective over that and and they gate keep that

you know it's that it's that sense of like this is not a space for women and i actually think it's one of the last bastions of sort of male um it it's there's just a lot of sexism that comes through this idea that this, you know, women should not be talking about football or women shouldn't be playing football. And I think it comes from this space of like, this is ours, this is for us. This is, um, you know, this is a space where I get to express myself with my male friends and be aggressive and not be judged. And if you're, if the female gaze is part of that, it makes them uncomfortable. I think there's just a resistance because it's always been seen as a male only thing and whenever somebody comes in to change that you have people that are very vocal about

that do you think it's that we ruin their fun I don't know I don't know you'd have to you'd have to ask it I mean I've asked some of my male friends and I'm like what is it about women being in the same space that makes you so uncomfortable and and he sort of said well men who are not secure in themselves naturally feel uncomfortable around confident women, like regardless of whether it's sport, whether it's work, whether it's relationships, like that's a thing. There is this fragility, I think, that I think we're seeing more and more as women rise, as women find their voice, as women find their confidence, as women are getting more opportunities, you're seeing men really struggle with that because part of them knows that.

well, I didn't have to do what she did to get where I'm at. It's, you know, it's that sort of privilege that it's been handed to them. And it's a threat. And it's a threat, right? Whereas I think if you have men who have actually done really well and really worked hard and are securing themselves, you get much healthier interactions with men. Like, you know, so I do think there's, there is, with the rise of women, the success of women, has come a real pushback from men specifically, not all men,

but from men specifically who are not actually that comfortable with themselves or find solace in other men who are also not comfortable. How have you experienced that pushback personally? A lot of it has come online, to be honest. A lot of it has come through online abuse, sexism, misogyny towards me. obviously I have an additional layer as a black woman so the racism comes through and again it's because I'm challenging your norm

and I'm confident in doing that you know I've been watching football since I was four years old so I'm no different actually to any young boy who's grown up and loves football and has watched football their whole life and can comment on it anyone who stands out becomes an easy target anyone who's different to the crowd becomes an easy target

and so I'm an easy target like you know it's easy to blame me it's easy to any mistake I make hold on to that mistake and pick it apart and say well that that confirms my bias that confirms that she's not supposed to be there they you know a lot of these people need that they need that confirmation

to then soothe that hatred within them and it's been really difficult to deal with because all I really want to do is turn up, do my job, enjoy myself and go home. Are you able to? Honestly, I think, I think it's got to a point now where I have to protect myself and if anything in life gets too toxic, you should move away from it. Whether it's a relationship or work environment, it's never that healthy to just like, go in this vicious abusive cycle and where there's still problems and social media in terms with the platforms don't really do anything you're not protected so i've kind of made a decision

really to sort of step away from it a little bit um and take on more opportunities internationally and travel which i love to do um because it's just it's just got to a point where it's irrational and actually just me being on screen without speaking is a problem. Oh my gosh. It's a problem for a lot of people, you know, and it's always the same type of people. It's always, it's always men. It's always, you know, this kind of what's she doing there.

How did she get there? And it's like, well, you have no idea what I've had to go through and the work I've done. And, you know, but it becomes exhausting. And as I said to you earlier, I have other great things that I'm due that I get better energy from. So I think there's a point where you take a break from something

and you say, okay, I love to doing that, but I'm going to go and do something else that's far more productive, that's far more welcoming, that is much healthier, interactions, and see where that takes me. And obviously that is your right and priority and has to be essential. But it also, you know, hearing you say there,

you know, you have to leave a situation that's not right. You have to leave a relationship or a workplace. It's like, you can't leave your sport or the internet. I know, and, you know, that's been my battle, to be honest. My battle has been, if you step away from something, you, they win, right? And it's this kind of, some sort of defiance, no, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to say. but that has been my battle, to be honest. It's this sense of if I give up or step away, they win.

You know, the haters win, the people that sort of are trying to don't like change or don't like progress. But I do think that you have to get to a point where you prioritise your mental health and you prioritize your peace and you just prioritize environments that make you feel good about yourself. and, you know, and, and you leave, you leave that sort of toxicity to, to kind of be separate from you. You know, I always, I always use the example of if you go in a bar and every time you go in this bar that you really like, you get, something bad happens and, you know, you get abused or, you get abused or. or, you know, just something bad always happens.

Or nine times out of ten, something bad happens. You wouldn't keep going into that bar. No. As much as you like it. It's not worth it. It's not worth it. You go to another bar. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. But it's just so unfair that you can't go into a bar you like without something bad happening. But I also, I'm the person that I'm like, I can't change this alone. There's some people that don't care as long it doesn't affect them. So when you're screaming and saying, something wrong with this environment and people don't really care to help you can't change it alone all you can do is say what I have to I can't be in this environment yeah right and so there's that that's where there's a challenge as well it's like you can't change something alone you can

raise it and you can you can you can highlight things and you can try to create um consequences around online abuse but ultimately enough people have to recognize as an issue to change it. There is so much racism in football. And we saw it personally this summer with the Euros. It's not something that I don't feel it's something that people are oblivious to. I don't think it's something that people are sweeping under the rug. I think we culturally can acknowledge it.

That's what feels so frustrating is that it's not like, you know, with women's football, there's the debate about whether or not it needs this much funding or whether or not the women are as good. There is, it's a stupid debate, but people can argue that there's a debate if they want. But with racism, there is no place for it in football. There is that acknowledgement. It's not like people are talking, whispering about it. Now, you know, every time there's a tournament, it's acknowledged.

But it doesn't feel like it's changing. And well, I think we have to, I'm happy that there is an acknowledgement. Because once upon a time, there was this gaslighting that it wasn't there. and so I do think people are much more comfortable now saying what you've just said so that's a start I do think now there are sort of inbuilt there's a framework of consequence

so if you are racist online or you are racist at football game nine times out of ten you are going to be punished for that and that in itself will change the behaviour other people then go oh we can't do that we're still not there yet but that's that's happening so Jess Carter was racially abused during the euros, the guy that was responsible has been arrested and, you know, punish.

And all of his friends, all of the people that know him will think, can't really get away with that anymore. So that's also important. But I think, I also think that we all need to accept that this is who people are. This is, this is, some people are racist. And you can't, you know, I don't think there's a coincidence. that at the same time we're seeing a rise in racism towards women's football, we're also seeing riots on the streets of, not riots, sorry, but protests on the streets.

We can call them riots. Riot protests, you know, it's sort of, you know, them and us sentiment. You know, it's, it's reflective of culture in society that some people prescribe to. Some people don't like people of colour, right? And I think there has to be acknowledgement that, like, some people you just can't, you can't really change them. What you can do is highlight the fact that what they, what the values they prescribe to is not what we want in our society. And you punish them for that. And to that extent, it kind of dies out because people don't want to be punished.

I don't, I've sort of a bit cynical about it. I don't think racism goes away. I think that's who people, some people are. but what you can do is sort of overpower it by enough of us being different to that and creating deterrents in society so people don't think it's okay. And do you think the FAA are doing that? I think, yeah, I think they are, to be fair to them. I think they are.

I think there is, there's no longer this sort of like instinctive denial. I think there's like an acknowledgement that, no, this is a real problem. And it's a problem in football specifically. because I don't think you see it as much in rugby or tennis or other sports. And yeah, I mean, I know that the FA would have been very keen to make sure that somebody was punished for Jess Carter who's representing her country being racially abused. It hasn't always been like that, but it's definitely getting that way now, which is good.

That's really nice. It's good to hear from your side of someone who's been in the sport that the acknowledgement is a good thing because I think something, Sometimes it feels like you say, you know, while we're watching just these protests and this horrible rhetoric online, it sometimes does feel like, is that just, like you say, is that just how it is. Is that just where we are now? So it does feel it's encouraging to hear that within the game, it does feel like it's not being tolerated. Yeah. And it, and I think more importantly, it, it, there has to be a way that loads of people do not tolerate it. So it overpowers, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, of course. And that's kind of how it drowns out. I have comfort in the fact that, you know,

more people than not are saying that's not acceptable. Yeah. Because if the flip side's true, that is a scary place. Yeah. If the flip side is, actually, it's all right to say those racist, xenophobic, sexist, misogynistic things, it's absolutely fine. If the majority is saying that, then you really are, you know,

screwed I didn't want to swear but you're screwed in this context I think you're going to Can we talk about? Can we talk about the difference

I guess culturally between rugby and football because like we said we just had the rugby ball cup final and it's it feels like there's a notable difference between

that and the women men's football, you know, whenever they play any kind of game, any kind of game that's recognised, you know, they always get pushback and they get men saying, you're not just, just abuse, basically. And that doesn't seem to really be that prevalent in rugby. Can you explain why? I don't know the answer, but I would think it's something to do with sort of the class, the class and culture of the sport and the education. I think rugby, has historically been

sort of a middle class sport played by very educated people who have had you know without that sort of sense of there's a sense of competition but it's not tribal it's not sort of toxic and sort of I'm going to kill you

because you wear a different colour shirt and support a different team like this is a sport and entertainment you know and sometimes I look at people who are just like really angry at football and it ruins their whole week and think gosh you know it's just a game it's like so unnecessary it's not that deep and if you're saying that as the player then that's kind of embarrassing to the fan but like when you really zoom out like it's really not that deep this is just a game yeah it doesn't change like we're not saving lives we're not doing

anything remotely you know it's important to people I don't want to belittle what sport means and sport means a lot to me, but like, you know, I have enough to say to myself, we are not saying, we're not doing anything remotely life-changing here. You know, there's people doing much more life-changing things and there's much more important things in the world. So I think that that, for me, is a cultural class thing. Whenever I've gone to rugby, I've always had an amazing, lovely time because it's just an environment where people are,

more welcoming and it's just, there's no culture of like, oh, you know, I'm going to, I hate you because you support the other team. Whereas in football, you know, there is a history of hooliganism. There is a history of tribalism, aggression, specifically male aggression. It's just coming from a much more negative place and they've driven all of that out of it. But I think still there's still a residue of that um that culture of you know i'm i grew up to hate you because you're a Liverpool fan and i'm a man united fan which is just irrational yeah it makes no sense it makes no because it's not that deep like it's not so so you know it's this kind of thing you know i'm speaking to someone the other day and i'm a chelsea fan like loosely but you know i played for

Chelsea for a long time, if they lose, it doesn't change my life. If they win, it's lovely. But like, I also like, like, like other teams. So, like, I like Liverpool. I like, you know, I like other teams. And I was saying this to this person that were like, how can you like two teams in the Premier League? And I was like, I don't know, I just do. And he was just perplexed. Like, he couldn't understand how I would have a rational brain around like liking a few different do because he's been he's been taught to like hate yeah and I'm just like this is like wouldn't it just be a nice that easier life if you just my yeah my brother's a Chelsea fan like a not a loose Chelsea fan a proper Chelsea fan like ended like holidays ruined by by games lost and I can't

look at it with a I've never been particularly and my mum will be like oh no poor boy it's teams are so I'm like it's not like lost the war right right but but I do think to your point earlier on the on the protective of the I mean not to be just super generalistic but maybe there is an element of like you say if it's how they connect yeah I think there's a connection then it's like and they can't say guys I my this is this is how I've built all my friendships so please don't unpack it because then I'm going to lose all the ways I connect with my friends Right. Well, I think there's something there. I think there's something there in, you know, again, I don't, I don't want to generalise,

and I'm sure there's research on this, but men typically do find it difficult to connect. Men find it difficult to talk. You know, men have, you know, just social difficulties that women don't have. You know, I love having a chat about nothing with my girlfriends and, you know, and I find joy in that in a way that I think men find it more difficult. So maybe sport and football is their only way of connecting and talking about everything else but their problems and talking about who should play and who should start where

gives them that sense of connection that is kind of surface because I'm sure a lot of men are crying out for actually talking about actual issues in life. But it's a connection point that I think, And belonging. A belonging that I, you know, I respect that. I can understand the protectiveness where maybe they feel like women coming in with a bit of rationale going, you really don't need to feel this way about your team because it's just a game at the end of the day

where they can feel that that's a threat to every connection they've ever made. Yeah. But that doesn't go any way to justify. To justify, yeah. That part, honestly, I will never understand it. I would never understand why, you know, even with the lioness is winning, I saw so many like men just trying to undermine it. Oh yeah. And I just thought, what, what is that? Yeah. Like, what is it that makes you triggered by women doing well? It's, it's so bizarre, and I'm sure it's been studied,

but there's just so many men who just couldn't be happy for the lionesses. And then, and then is this, I always find it funny when there's sort of someone in the comments, men in the comments go, I don't care, shoving it down our throats. It's like, well, you care enough to comment. So you care enough for this to be on your algorithm. Shut your mouth. If you don't want it, shut on your throat. They sit there with their mouths over.

I don't like darts. I don't like, there's lots of things I don't like. I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you anything enough because I don't care, right? So I just find it bizarre how you find the time and energy to attack something that you apparently don't care about. Like, good luck to you, darts players. I could, you know, I don't, you know, good luck.

But like, you would never find me being like, this darts is being shoved down my head. It's so easy. And you're right, it's because they do care. It's just, no, but I think they care from a place that triggers something inside them. Do you know, it's deeper than just, let me say something funny. I think there is something about women rising in all areas that make some men, And again, not all, because I have some amazing male mentors and friends and people who really

helped me in my life. So I'm always conscious to kind of qualify what I'm saying. But I do think there's a lot of men who are triggered by women making progress. And I couldn't, I don't know why. I just, you know, it's much easier to just be happy for somebody. It is. It is a lot easier. And a lot less time and energy consuming. Right, just say, well, well done, like, you know, the represent. Take it to your game. They could be really good at football if they went outside. And what's even more scary is some of these men have daughters.

Yeah. Can you think of another area of society that is so fiercely guarded as a male only thing? No. It's quite embarrassing. Yeah. And I don't understand it. I think it's changed a lot, you know, because, and I think to some extent we should just keep doing what we're doing. And, you know, don't worry too much about the sort of validation, where the validation's not coming from and focus on where it is coming from. And, you know, millions of people are watching football. Millions of people watching women's sport. Stadiums are being sold out. You know, once upon a time, that wasn't happening. So I do think we should focus on those people, which includes men, you know, the amount of girl dads I see bringing their daughters to the game and they absolutely love it. Some of them love it more than men's sport.

So there is a flip side to that too. But yeah, I think it's a societal issue. And there's been a lot of conversation about this, you know, in terms of like male in style culture and like, you know, this sense of it's cool to like take the piss out of girls. And, you know, a lot of the stats on sort of sexual harassment and abuse towards women online is going up. And there's something in that.

that I don't think it's a coincidence as women are trying to rise and sort of break through societal norms that that's also rising. So it's like a friction to kind of keep women where men think they should be, you know? But we have to just keep pushing through that and be brave and courageous enough to push through that

with whatever you want to do. And it's only going to become more confronting for the men that, well, like the men that push back against women in sport, either on the pitch or on TV you know because there's women's sport is only growing yeah and it's not going away the the I imagine like female pundits like they're not going away either yeah I mean they're not going away but but I do I just worry about kind of what you have to brace yourself for yeah you shouldn't have to go into any job and be like okay today just ignore the millions of

people saying horrible nasty things about it's cool You shouldn't have to do that. And honestly, I've lost count about the amount of times I've done that. Yeah. Just to exist, just to do my job. That's cruel. And it's not healthy. It's not, it's not normal.

And so it's that sense of like, okay, we have to kind of, we have to do this to change the norm. But on the flip side, is it what does it take from you to do it? You know, you shouldn't have to kind of push yourself to the limit. And that's kind of where I'm at, you know, I'm just kind of like, okay, this, this doesn't seem to like it's relenting. So let me step away. And, you know, you're saying you have to brace yourself, but you also have to make yourself, you also have to self-monitor 24-7 in case, like you say, you make a mistake. And then suddenly everyone pounces on you. Once you make a mistake, it's, it's just, it's what they're waiting for.

Yeah. And it was just ridiculous, right? because every human being makes a mistake and male pundits make mistakes every week. I mean, I've seen, you know, male pundits say the most ridiculous things and it gets laughed at, you know. Whereas, you know, people still, I still get, you know, people online messaging me about a mistake I made five years ago

where I got my maths wrong. Like, I found it funny. Like, I, like, took the piss out of myself about it, but they're holding onto it for dear life. Oh my God, that is proof that you shouldn't. be a pundit and I'm just like what's sad life you know but that's the reality um that and and and the scary part is it's it can start to impact then what the people that hire you think right of course so if they constantly see just constant negativity and it's a competitive

industry at one some point they're going to go oh we can't just comes with too much baggage Baggage that I never asked for, but baggage that inevitably comes, right? And that's also happened, by the way, that I do feel that it has created this sort of hostile cloud a little bit around me where it's like, again, you know, everyone has to brace themselves for the racism and misogyny and the sexism that comes with any Loco being on the show. And the person that loses out for that is me. So it's tricky and it's difficult But you know I go back to it I try as much as possible To try and focus on other positive things in my life

That I've kept going and on other areas So that you know If you put all your eggs in one basket And that basket gets taken away It's not healthy So you try and do other things And you know So that's kind of where I'm at now

And you know I'm working with great causes like refuge and um and great charities that do an amazing work and and that brings me a lot of joy and it's it I feel like I'm making making a change um as much as I can and you will be and you will be moving the dial on and I think even having this conversation is like it's it's it's frustrating that you can't end it on something happy because you can't say you can't say that it's gone or that it's going and and and and you are having to protect yourself and that is the that is the best thing that can come from

this is that you can look after yourself I don't know I mean I think I think that you know I've been doing broadcasting for 11 years right so I'm very proud of what I've been able to achieve but you know I think everyone will get to a point where they say okay should I stop now should I take a break is this what I want to keep doing is this healthy like you have to in anything in any relationship you should ask yourself those questions and so it is a bit of a shame um you know i i had a great summer you know i the lionesses i covered the lionesses with ITV and and that and it you know it ended on a very positive note with you know lionesses winning and so so to some extent i was able to kind of just say right okay

This is kind of be, you know, I can sort of take a bit of a break with it ending on a positive note. With all the sort of media rubbish that they write, I feel like it ended, it's, it's, I'm taking a break on a positive note. Yeah. But yeah, you just have to protect yourself. That's my message. We have to, we have to prioritize our own selves.

Because I think if we try too much to exist in environments just to prove a point, it will affect you too much where you can't even do what you're good at doing anymore. You don't bring your best self, right, to the table. And you've always got to be in an environment where you can thrive. You know, I stopped thriving. I was thinking too much about, oh, well, what's, you know, if I say this. And as I brought, I mean, you guys will know, you have to be comfortable. as a broadcaster you can't go into anything going oh I can't say that your performance will be

very restrictive and people can see it yeah you know so you have to be comfortable you have to feel like you can thrive and and you have to choose environments that allow you to do that I don't want to put words on your mouth and this would be my comment not yours but it does feel very frustrating that to the point earlier that we acknowledge that racism and misogyny is very prevalent within these spaces that you don't have, that there isn't a way that they can create, that a work environment can't be created where you do feel safe. The answer shouldn't have to be you pulling away. It shouldn't have to be, it shouldn't have to be the responsibility of you as a player or a ponder to remove yourself. There needs to be more by the F, by the FAA, by any of the networks,

by the broadcasters, whatever to recognize, you know, when they see the baggage that comes, quote, unquote, when they see the comments to push, to, to, to, push you away because it's a problem it's like i agree and we've kind of i've kind of had that conversation yeah um but you know it's still an area where people just don't really know what to do don't really know how to manage it and i think the tricky thing comes you know if you run a network and it's your fans it's your subscribers who are racist then you've got to you've got to make a choice then you have to almost stand against people who are sort of funding your business.

But like the choice feels clear. Right. And if they were to make an example of the people who were, you know, if they were prepared to punish the people who were making, you know, racist or misogynistic comments. Yeah.

What to stand with you? Yeah. To stand up for. I personally think that's, I mean, that's what I would do if, you know, if I, you know, I'm really big on, like showing your values like you know really being clear about what they are and not having anyone question what that is and actually you get a huge kudos for doing that um so i i believe that

but but i i do think there's a little bit of sort of nervousness around doing that why i don't know you know i can't i can't answer that question um but yeah i do feel like there could have been a lot more protection yeah um for me, you know, not just for me, but for other female broadcasters. But we're not there yet, unfortunately. And so everybody kind of has to choose what they do. I think this is across the board as well on, on, beyond football.

Yeah, it is. Yeah. Women are experiencing this. And I do think we are living in very polarised times where I think. You feel it, don't you? Yeah. And I wonder that maybe the networks don't have a, have a, And again, this is a massive, like, I'm hypothesizing,

but it's that perhaps that if you worry that if you stand up too much for the underdog or if you stand up too much for the person, like you say, and go against your own viewers, that then you're going to cause something bigger on the other side. Because we are living in time where people are saying the quiet part out loud and we are saying polarised politics. 100%. It doesn't make it right.

No, but it's a choice, right? like it's a it's the wrong choice it's the wrong choice and sometimes people are scared to sort of make a stand the other point is is that you know unfortunately we're still in a place where a lot of these decisions even in women's football are taken by men yeah so there's that sense of like men not wanted to go against other men there's that as well and like you're still being given something like it's theirs to give you exactly exactly we'll give them this job we'll give them that role we'll Give them this game. Exactly.

And I'm really passionate about that. I'm like, how do we get more women in leadership decision-making positions so that there's just more nuance to these decisions? That must be frustrating for you to have to witness. Yeah, but again, we go back to it. We're in a world where it is sort of a man's world. And women have had to try to figure out how to sort of exist within that. and climb within that

but the majority of the decisions are still being made by men and so then it's about finding male leaders who get it who champion women you know my biggest champions have been men and thank God for them but they're men who are extremely secure

you know understand you know the challenge of women a lot of them have daughters so they get it because their daughters will go to them and say, like, Dad, like, I'm struggling with this, X, Y, Z. But it's not always, you know, some of those men are few and far between, like, it's hard. So I think there's a bit of that as well.

It's kind of like this is still a bit of a boys' network, even within women's sport, right? And so, you know, I'm an investor now as part of a investment group that we buy women's teams. And the big intention with that is creating a world where we are making decisions as owners and we make decisions and we bring in brands who are female focus, brands that might not be interested in working with men's game, but are focused on, you know, whether it's, you know, better wellbeing and health for women and, you know, so there's all these companies, you know, periods, there's all these research now about periods and women's sport that we have. have to kind of ask for because it just hasn't been thought about before, you know. I'll get the stat wrong, but there's some amazing research done into the difference between men sponsor, the women consumers who will buy from brands that sponsor sports versus men,

where it's like men will buy like, it's like 0.7% will it will translate into a sale or something. Whereas with women, it's like, I can't remember the stat, but it's huge. Like we are so much more like to. Powerful as consumers, yeah. Yeah, we're so much more likely to buy from brands that invest in the. sport. So if your brand listening to this, it'd be a very lucrative decision to invest in the sport. Well, it makes sense, right? And it's a whole new audience. Yeah. Yeah. It's a new audience. It's, you know, in terms of it's frankly cheaper to get in and invest in women's sport than it is in

men's sport. So yeah, I would highly encourage brands to work with women's sport. and investing it long term yeah you know it's not it's not about a short-term moment i think it's about long-term you know building you know building an ecosystem that you know can kind of be generational and think about the future of women's sport well we've got to let you go thank you so so much for joining us it's been so interesting to talk to you and we're going to leave links to your work and refuge's work in the show notes so people can check that out. But thank you so, so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. So it's been a powerful conversation. Thank you. Should I delete that as part of the ACAS creator network?