Should I Delete That? - I made Supersize vs Superskinny - this is why…

Episode Date: January 30, 2025

Colette Foster was the executive producer of Channel 4’s factual entertainment show Supersize vs Superskinny. The show was hosted by Dr Christian Jessen and each week it saw two contestants, one overweight and one underweight, swap diets whilst at a Feeding Clinic, under the supervision of Dr Jessen. Both participants were shown the extent of their poor diet.This week, we have been exploring the role that television played on how we feel about our bodies - and we were thrilled when Colette agreed to come and speak to us. We were keen to find out about the inception of Supersize vs Superskinny, what safeguarding was in place for contributors and how the production team reacted to criticism directed at the show. Colette is founder and Creative Director of Full Fat TV, a new factual entertainment company based in Birmingham, focusing on factual entertainment and feature formats with an emphasis on emerging talent. You can read about their work here: https://fullfattv.co.uk/ If you would like to get in touch - you can email us on [e-mail] us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Dex RoyStudio Manager: Dex RoyTrailers: Sophie RichardsonVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Emma-Kirsty Fraser Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome back to Should I Delete That. Over January and February on this podcast, we are doing an eight-part series exploring our relationship with body image. On Monday, we took a look back to the world of TV. And as part of that episode, you heard part of our conversation with Colette Foster, who was the executive producer of Super Size versus Super Skinny, a show which saw two contestants, one overweight and one underweight, swap diets whilst at a feeding clinic. We were so grateful to Colette for agreeing to come on the podcast and although at times it was a difficult conversation

it was important for us to hear what went into the production of the show and to get inside understanding of how and why diet shows were so popular in the noughties and 2010s. This is our conversation with Colette in full. If you haven't heard Monday's episode yet, you can go back and listen and hear Mind and M's reactions and reflections on the interview. But for now, let's dive into the world of Super Size vs.

is super skinny. So your portfolio and your experience and your career in TV is really extensive. And a lot of your career has been working on and coming up with some really huge, popular, very, very popular mainstream shows like super size, super skinny versus super size. Super size versus super skinny. Sorry, right the first time. Super size versus super skinny, how to look good naked, 10 years younger. A lot of these, a lot of your work has centred around bodies and women's bodies, I guess, specifically.

Can you talk to us about the culture of that time? Take us back to the, you know, the inception of those shows. What was it? What was the culture like? How was it at the time and how did these shows kind of come to be? Well, it didn't necessarily start. this century, it started last century, didn't it, but an obsession with weight loss and looking a certain way and appealing to people. But certainly in 2007, when Super Size versus Super Skinny

was conceived, actually it was a moment in time where there were huge obesity issues that people were beginning to talk about, but there was also, on the front of every magazine, very skinny, potentially anorexic people being idolized as having the perfect body. So that's what crystallised that idea. And to be clear, I can't take credit for that. There was a development producer called Ian Dodgen who made that correlation. And so suddenly you think we're always full of contradictions, but it was that moment in time of half the nation, not eating enough food and desperate to be as skinny as possible, and the other half loving their food, if you like, and eating to excess. So it was two extremes, both unhealthy, and it was a way

to sort of shine a spotlight at that moment in time. And in a way, bringing two people of different body sizes together, we were trying to break the mould of you, person, perhaps carrying a bit too much weight, you're the problem, we're going to make a show that makes it all about you're the problem. By having two people with those different eating attitudes, it was saying we've got a collective problem in this country, we are obsessed with our bodies, we are obsessed with the way we look. It's time to re-examine it, really. So there was a moment in time for making that particular show happen. But in truth also at that time, I don't think. think it's changed much, if I'm honest. People are still obsessed with the way they look,

still obsessed with whether they're carrying too much weight or they want to have less weight. I think we wrap it up a bit more healthily these days. Probably the biggest thing that's also changed is that our science and knowledge about our bodies and the way. We consume food because at the time it was like, oh, if you're overweight, you're a slob, you're lazy. It's all your faults. There was a blame culture, wasn't there really? So you can imagine as a TV producer, that idea of having those extremes straight away, just think, oh my God, this is absolutely golden as an idea. So that was it, as simple as that really.

Let's take two extremes of the body fascination, put them together and see what they can teach each other. So that was the main premise of the show. But then off that, there were loads of other strands as well, because at that time, I think what Channel 4 were brilliant at doing is saying let's do something explosive, let's do something really provocative. But it's always had purpose to it. It wasn't just, as I say, it wasn't about blame.

It was about understanding. And possibly the first show that looked at the psychology of how we feel about our bodies as well. But it was a really challenging show to make because you're not just dealing with the way people look, you're also dealing with the way they feel. And we made, we also made films with, young girls with eating disorders so it was actually it had quite a lot of purpose to it despite

having quite a big quite shocking premise at its heart i felt my job was to make it entertaining enough to make people want to watch it and then subliminally give them the information that they needed to go on top of that so it wasn't one without the other so we were quite responsible even though it's a very provocative show and obviously that's that's that's what you want, isn't it? You want to grab people's attention if you want to talk about something. People write about these things all the time. How do you make it make people want to tune in for it? So that was it. It's so interesting on the responsibility thing because I think this is something that we've definitely seen in recent years. Like there's been huge calls on

production to take contestants like mental health more seriously. Like obviously after very high profile cases like with Love Island and the Jeremy Kyle show, we've seen the, the, effect that kind of being thrown into the TV world can have on the people that perhaps didn't anticipate what it was going to be like. And I think even more so back then, we didn't really know what your five minutes was going to look like. So I wonder, from a duty of care standpoint, what responsibility did you kind of like legally have like to these people, but also what did you have morally within yourself? Because there is a lot, like you say, it's, you're dealing with really complicated issues.

So how did you kind of... Interestingly, it wasn't legal. It was definitely moral and professional, I would say, in that if for any... So we had a psych team on board. And when I say a psych team, you often get psychiatrists who understand about television and would be working in the reality space, if you like.

So testing a contributor's robustness to be in that environment. but we had professional psychiatrists who worked with people who had eating disorders and understood that as a subject, but we also had a full-time dietitian on board as well. So what you see is the front end behind the scenes. Everybody was really well supported. That doesn't mean that everybody say they would have had a fantastic time. But I think the premise of the show was not about blame. It had a different starting point.

And so for that reason, I personally don't think we did anything untoward, but I'm not saying it wasn't difficult to make because people are vulnerable in any situation. And actually, you know, if you think about another show, like how to look good naked, it's empowering. It's a positive show. If you've struggled with your weight your whole life, and this is, you think this is the last chance you've got,

got to sort of sort of sort of your weight out, I'm going to go on a TV show. So you do, you spend a long time before you actually even put them on the program. You've really got to get to know people and talk about them because you're right. Back then, it would have still been seen as 15 minutes of fame. It just so happens that the subject matter was so sensitive. We knew we had to be, we knew we had to be, do well.

I still get emails from a guy called Stefan, who is in series one, I think, from Northern Ireland, still sends me photographs of how. much weight he's lost and how he's kept his weight off. So for some people it works. And I would say it's just the starting point, isn't it? If you take part in a program like that and you want to change, then that's good. People are always looking for help, aren't they? You said that it didn't make it easier to make, that it was sometimes, you know, it was difficult to make because you were dealing with something, I guess, so sensitive. And I don't think the, you know, the contestants who were the super skinnies as they were called right the super skinnies like i don't think

they were i don't think you outrightly said or they have eating disorders but i imagine a lot of them were struggling with their mental health especially in regards to eating so with the specific swap the um the super skinnies um never had an eating disorder they were always extensively psyched We did a separate strand about eating disorders with a group of anorexic people. But for the swap, we'd have never put somebody on the swap who was suffering from an eating disorder. Right. So the super skinnies, they were assessed by a psychiatric team prior to coming on the show. They more had food obsessions or quirks.

and very often as we know though somebody's desired form of eating can be masking an eating disorder so that's what the Sykes always had to decide so again I can't remember the contributor's name because it was such a long time ago but she thought that if she just ate Brazil nuts there was such a healthy, wholesome food

that that was really good she didn't think she needed to eat anything else and that wasn't that was just so she had a very healthy approach to food but it wasn't a rounded approach to food and so you're just always trying to get under the layers but there was never anybody in a swap who had an eating disorder okay was orthorexia talked about at that point what's orthorexia so I know that so I guess it's a it's it's another eating disorder that is focused on where sufferers focus on health their obsession is

with health basically. Yeah. But it obviously hugely impacts what they eat and then like subsequently how they look as well. But I do think that's a more recent, that's 2007. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that actually it wouldn't, I don't think it would have even been a talking point at that. I don't even know if it was in the DSM at that point. I don't think so. I don't think that. Yeah. Okay.

I mean, just because I don't know, it doesn't mean anything, but that's what I'm saying. It was, they were, they would, they would present very often as very healthy people. There were nobody in that strand, for example, who'd been dieting all their lives up, wasn't it? But it, but it is a, it's still really about your emotional relationship with food, isn't it? That's really what you're unraveling about helping somebody not feel either completely, well, at either end, you're feeling guilty about what you're eating, aren't you? you're not, you haven't got a rational relationship with food. That's what it's saying.

Not that I know anybody in the world who has got a rational relationship with food. It's not because we, we have literally been fed a diet of crap ideas about eating since the 60s. That's, that's the truth of it, isn't it? There's not, there's always somebody who's got another solution for how you're going to be eternally happy with your body. Yeah. So it's a constant struggle because one day somebody's telling you it's protein, the next. day they're telling you it's carbs yeah it's just it's just a game to sell stuff at the end of the day totally it's an absolute barrage of conflicting information that like yeah just keeps us like

forever going on this hamster wheel and we can't get off yeah can I ask and this isn't me trying to catch you out on this on this point of of assessing the the psychiatric you know state of the contestants but obviously it was all humans making this show humans are fallible and make mistakes was there a point where you ever thought about the contestants like this doesn't feel right I don't think this person should be on the show I don't think they should be taking part their mental health isn't strong enough for this and I suspect that there's an eating disorder at play genuinely and honestly no I don't feel that I really don't You may say, oh, somebody's got in touch with us

and had an awful experience on it. You might say that. I don't, because I tell you why I didn't make the decision about whether those people were suitable to be on television. And also, when you're put into a reality, so you use the word contestants. So I would never use the word contestants for a factual show. It wasn't a competition.

They weren't there trying to win something. So it existed for a different reason. And people would always apply because they want help. You know, that's whatever, in a show like that, they're looking for help. They're not looking just to be on television. So I hear the point because some people think that is their moment of fame going to be the answer to other problems in a way. But honestly, the process, it was a very long, drawn out process and it did have a lot of, there was a lot, it was all about the expertise of a really excellent psych team headed by Lynn Greenwood, who I still work with now. I think entertainment

the support and care has been something a bit late coming because we probably all look at people who take part in reality shows and think well they know what's involved don't they they've seen them all on telly before oh they just want to do it because they're going to get a million pound frock deal

but that's ridiculous because we all know that what's on telly is just the tip of what happens behind the scenes but it was never a show about manipulation I feel like I'm being very grown up and responsible rather than entertaining No, it's so, it's important to hear, but it's also, it's, we need to remember because obviously, you know, Alex and I look back at this time as a big part of our jobs and we commentate on a lot of this stuff. And it's really easy to do that retrospectively when we know about things like orthorexia and we know about huge words, huge ideals. We've learned so much, both of us and all of us, society, we've all learned so much in the last 20 years. But so it's not really realistic that we can do that because we've learned so much. We've learned so much. We've learned so much. It's not really realistic that we can do that because we've learned. We've learned so much. We've learned so we've learned so do need to take into consideration the context of the time. TV was new, in this sense, using so many real people.

And we are only now really seeing the effects of that. And we won't know, you know, they'll be studying that for years. But I think the thing that's really important for us to remember is that there was the hunger. I can't find other words apart from these parts. The appetite for these shows was massive. But that's why you made them. That's why you made so many like them. That's why we will watch them because...

And you know they're still watched in huge numbers on YouTube? I couldn't believe it. When we were researching this, they were all like three, four, five million views on these, on just clips. They're all over TikTok. We still have this. And we, we, and this is a big part of this series, is exploring this like voyeuristic way that we all kind of deal with weight and body image.

And it's a lot of projection. But it would be interesting to hear about the kind of ratings and the reaction that you felt at the time as you were making the show because the ratings must have been big. Was the reaction overwhelmingly positive to them as they were coming out? Did you get backlash?

No, it was, I mean, it was extremely popular. Yeah. But that's because we were still in a time. I'm from a family of all shapes and sizes. So when I talk about the body, I don't even just talk about my own. I talk about my family. For example, I've got a twin, and he won't mind me saying,

but he's quite a bit bigger than me. You know, we could have been supersized versus super skinny or, you know, any of us could have been secret eaters. But I think the, what is positive now, I think, is that we understand more about our bodies and our genes. At that time, there was just this blame for being overweight, and it's your problem, and you need to sort it out. So for me, that's the sadness of the time.

And I'm not saying that's gone away completely now, but I do think we understand more that people, there are just some genetics that are up against you that will mean that you end up being a certain shape or a certain size. And, of course, we didn't do enough blaming of the food, manufacturers either and the absolute shite they put in our food that we're addicted to the sugar and the salt and the fat and all you can do is educate people about the dangers of those things but we've sort of we've ended up we can't we shouldn't be blaming people for the for the shape

they're in and at the same time if you feel unhealthy and you can see a life of ill health because you are overweight, then surely you should be equipped to try and take control of it as well. So that's what we were trying to do at the time, but I still think that that message still isn't wholly there, that there's still people have got this horrible guilt about their shape and size. And I would be lying if I said that even at the time, I didn't think, well, you know, if you ate a bit less, then you're going to lose some weight. But I think we just know that bodies don't work that way. I've certainly spoken to a lot of bariatric surgeons and they class obesity as a

disease and I don't think we do that enough in this country. I think we just say it's somebody else's fault their problem. So I think that's what's changed really. So when you started the show, what were you doing before that? Which shows were you doing before that? I just made embarrassing bodies. Okay. Okay.

Do you love embarrassing bodies? Because I want to know, I'd love to know the, um, what the ratings look like of Super Size versus Skinny versus the shows that you'd done prior. Did you see a huge jump in ratings? Was it, was it like a big burst in ratings? No, no, no, they're about the same. They're about the same. They were all getting three million.

Yeah. On a place where you might get 500,000 there. They were hugely popular shows. Yeah. And that was, was that the same as you went into 10 years younger and how to look good make it? I did 10 years younger. So I think this is what's interesting about the evolution of TV shows. None of these programs could ever get made now. And I don't think, you know, that's, that's absolutely fine. But 10 years younger was just a makeover show, but then it evolved because at the time,

people starting to have cosmetic procedures. So that's what the show became about. So then you make a show that it's almost like pro-cosmetic surgery. And then you think, well, it's time to make a show that's anti-cosmetic surgery. So how to look good naked evolved. I think the difference, there was programs then had, they were always fronted by experts who were a bit finger-waggy

if I was being a bit negative, but at the time, that's how we consumed stuff. We don't have the world of content that you've got online now. It's just a different time. So all of those shows were appointment to view for people of a certain age

in the middle of the week. And they were all aspirational. They were all saying, you know, if you want to look good, you know, these are the tools to do it. Embarrassing bodies was completely different, but all of these shows come about from a zeitgeist. Something's happening in the ether, make a show about it. And embarrassing bodies famously on the day of broadcast, nobody would speak to me at Channel 4 because I said it was going to, I was going to bring the channel down for it. But that was from everybody's Googling their health. You can't get an appointment at the doctors.

Let's make a series that's about health. You know, it always comes from something real. And then you're educating people. And then, of course, the next day the switchboards going off because you saved my dad's life because you showed something that he got. So they've always got purpose to them. But there's no point in making something that's purposeful that nobody watches. You know, you've got to do something that feels like,

like it's got some purpose to it. I think what's really... Interesting and I don't know if it's changed or if you would... What you'd think about it now, I thought it's really interesting you said that you had one show that kind of ended up being like pro-cosmetic surgery

so then you thought, well, I need to make one that's against it. I think in this day and age, you'd probably end up needing to caveat the one show with the other. You'd need to make a balanced... I don't know if you... Within one episode, you mean. Within one show.

Yeah. Because you're not. guaranteed that everybody watching 10 years younger is going to be watching how to look good naked so you might just be yeah like yeah what else I was watching both but it's it's kind of um like I I really do as you speaking I'm like I can feel like I completely understand the time and that makes so much sense but then I think responsibly do you think now in terms of as we've moved forwards with responsibility to sort of thing you would need to make one show more balanced rather than having two shows trying to sort of balance each other out?

I think, well, I think the answer is no, obviously. As in you don't do bake off and then say, well, let's have some low-calorie cakes in it. You know, a show is a show, isn't it? That's what you've got. But I think we did collectively, I think we collectively became concerned that we were, it wasn't deliberate, but I think we became concerned that it looked like we were promoting

cosmetic surgery. And I think that's why. And I say the we, that was me and the production company, but also the commissioning editors at Channel 4, who obviously got huge power and influence on what we make. I think we just all started to think we've got to make sure that suddenly there's not a rush on everybody wanting cosmetic surgery. It's a bit like, what we're saying about all parts of the world people are always trying to sell you something and so i think we just got to a place where we thought oh maybe maybe we shouldn't be so keen to say that this is the solution and in all the cases again of the contributors hugely siked a long time before those decisions were made um it it wasn't a geofancy free cosmetic surgery show

it was never that and again a lot of legal and compliance around it but but that yes i would say that you've i don't think any of those programs could get made now but then i don't know because i feel like we're not that far away from a show we've done it where we're following people to go and get buttlifts in turkey or veneers or whatever but usually they are showing the downside of those things and and again to be clear if you heard all the voiceover around the surgery surgical procedures we're very clear. What you want, I think what we wanted to get, what we want to try and get back to is

with later shows is that, you know, you should have ownership of your body. You shouldn't, you shouldn't feel shame for your body. And I mean, I think Emma Thompson's the, she's like the best advocate because she said, why would I waste my time worrying about my body? And I think that's, that, that would be the best, that would be the best place to get to, wouldn't it? And I think that's why you don't really see weight loss shows on television anymore because it's just there is there is inevitable a feeling that we're not we should be more about body acceptance rather than change your body because that's the answer to happiness that that's that's culturally the biggest shift we know it's not that's the shift we want to be in society it's

not happening yeah but that's the belief isn't it but I think that's why you're less likely to see weight loss on TV but when you're do, it's guaranteed good viewing figures. That's so interesting, yeah, because I wanted to ask you why you think, because you're right, those shows captured the zeitgeist at the time, 100%. But now those shows wouldn't be, they wouldn't be allowed. And I wanted to ask this as a two-part question, why you think that they wouldn't be allowed now, but also do you think it's right that they wouldn't be allowed now?

If we were just talking about Super Size versus Super Skinny, I mean we could talk about all those different shows, couldn't we? But Super Size versus Super Skinny, ultimately that device, whilst powerful and absolutely helpful to those individuals, ultimately it still feels like you're objectifying someone to make the content. because it's not documentary, it's not observed, you are facilitating this swap of diets. And even though it was a short, sharp burst, you know, it was only five days, it wasn't any longer than that. And a lot of people got the benefit of doing it.

I find it more difficult to answer your second question about whether it should or should, whether it would or wouldn't. I know why it wouldn't get commissioned now, but I don't think that's always means that's the reason to not commission it because by creating an entertaining format like that, you get through to people and there's a lot to say about the subject matter. So I wouldn't make it exactly the same way, but I still think that obsession, like really skinny people, really overweight people, that hasn't gone away. That's still circulating, isn't it? Was there a decline? So obviously you were making the shows because you knew the demand was that. they were pulling in like three million viewers, at least all of the shows all the time.

Did it get to a point where ratings started dwindling and that's how you guys knew the kind of appetite for this show has gone, we need to stop? Or was it more, we're learning more about societal issues and these shows are actually probably, they're a bit dated now, we're not going to do them anymore. Was it like we have to do this because people aren't watching them anymore or we should probably do this because we don't necessarily want people watching this anymore? I would say it's literally people's appetite to watch you would definitely have seen viewing figures starting to go down

that would be a reason why because TV is also about the new you're always looking to make the next new thing so I think we made about six or seven series it was hugely popular so it would have been a viewing figure decline but you're right there's that feeling of is the story changing does that as well that must have been such an interesting thing when you feel when you've been doing something and you feel the kind of culture around

you shifting because it's kind of amazing you represent well you tap into exactly what we want and you peak human curiosity like that is what a producer's job is yeah i mean i could very easily sit here and say we hold a mirror up to society because that's the reason why you think it's okay to make it it's look i'm 100% behind responsible program making and always have been, but I think the shame in a way now is that you can't be as provocative because you don't want to cause upset and you don't want, even though it's still out there in society, we just don't necessarily see television as being the place to make those kind of shows. But I think in truth, we've changed what we like to consume on TV.

As I say, there's a, you know, Instagram is now the place to go if you want, a ridiculous amount of weight loss advice. It's just full of it, isn't it? It's just absolutely full of it. So we watch television for relaxation now, don't we? We want to get away from the stress and the responsibility of life. We watch drama and we watch reality shows. We have got a different appetite for what we want to consume.

It's so true. We're learning from the internet now. We don't need to learn so much from TV. But it's interesting that you say that if these shows existed today, they would still pull in these big numbers. And I do suspect that they would. that people would still be in, it's still be interested in this content. To an extent, a lot of the things that you did, like a lot of the formatting,

looking at, is it how to look naked or, no, 10 years younger, where you'd take a photo of someone in their underwear and ask other people. And stand them in the street, yeah. But people, too, we are, we are, it's evolved, but we're doing that now. People are on Instagram with their tiny mics and TikTok. That content does, you're right, that content does things in. It's all there. It's just not on television. Yeah.

Television is there for a different reason then, I'd say, yeah. God, yeah. We're still at it. Everyone's still at it. It's just not on TV. Can I just ask a personal question of real curiosity? Because I always thought about this. When you were doing the, as a producer, doing the, getting the public's reaction,

because you'd do it, it would be like, I think it was 10 years younger where they'd say how old she looked. Oh, yes. And they'd always make a comment. And if she looks like my mom or like, oh, she looks my dead grandma. It would always be some, like, brutal comment. And then it would always be edited together. So the contributor would have to watch it back. I would have to watch it.

Did you ever feel just like, oh, God, this is brutal? Like, did you ever feel bad for the, just because you saw it first? Not because they were saying it, but like I've always thought that as like, if I was the one taking the footage, I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. They're going to watch it. Well, it's a poll with members of the public. It's an absolutely honest. Nobody was told to say what they say.

They just said what they said, and then you just cut it together. And you would always, on balance, have people say nice things. It wasn't all horrible. No, it wasn't. But it was, that was, again, you know, I don't like the way I look, please. And obviously I was a lot younger when I was making it. But it's just sort of like, please, I'll take whatever's going, please, to make me look better. Again, there was always another message with that show.

They were usually heavy smokers, heavy sunbed users, had done things that had aged them. So that was also part of the story as well. Well, speaking of you at the time making these shows, did any of them have an impact, whether good or bad, on your body image and how you felt yourself about your own body? I identify more with an obese person than a skinny person because the way we've been brought up culturally is to feel like we're never skinny enough. So I found that when you're, this doesn't mean to say, we could have made supersized versus super skinny, this sounds like a strange thing to say, we could have made it without the supersizers and just made it with the super skinnies. This is a really strange thing to say, it wouldn't have been interesting because the vast

majority of us, regardless of our size, feel that we're not eating the right things or doing the right things to have a good body. So I don't want to say there's no empathy for somebody who's skinny, but we feel, we think, oh, they've got it all, haven't they? They've sorted it out. So they haven't got a problem. We put all the problem on those other people, on the supersizers. But the supersizers are more interesting because they're human, they're fallible, So I know that I'm within a healthy body weight but I don't feel any happier about my body just because I am because mentally we've been brought up to earn a way

to think that we could always have a better body And so that's what I empathise with. That's a really good point. We didn't have much empathy. I mean, but we didn't have, we didn't really have empathy for the obese person either because like you say it was a blame. thing um but it's really interesting what you say about the skinnier the skinny person in the show

that they weren't i think maybe that's what it was with all of it was that we as a public did lack a lot of empathy when it came to each other at that time yeah and i think that's probably why we ended up with the content with with the hunger i cannot find another word but with the appetite for that content because we just maybe and maybe it didn't feel real because these people, they didn't have Instagram accounts to defend themselves. They didn't, you know, like, you know, they'd signed up for it. So. Reality TV now is full of explosions and drama.

We want something to react to, don't we? And I suppose in its own way, if you're watching a program, where somebody's overweight, it's almost like, oh, it's horrible to say it's point and stare because that wasn't, that wasn't the premise of the show. We were very warm towards the people who were overweight. We really were. It wasn't, it wasn't a cruel show. We, we absolutely wanted to help them. But inevitably, if you see somebody larger than yourself, you can also think, oh, at least I'm not as big as that person. That's, so when you say we just, it's all going on in our lives it's just you just won't see it on television there's still that judgment nobody that's

not changing we still have huge judgments against people and the way they look still there yeah and i guess you can just like any anyone making any content can capitalize on the human condition at any given point and we are very judgmental so it's a bit inevitable isn't it what did you and the other people who worked on the show, yeah, specifically, it's too many asses, specifically super-sized versus super skinny. That is a lot of essays. It obviously, it really, it garnered a lot of criticism and there was, you know, the head of beat, which is the UK's leading eating disorder charity at the time, came out and said it

was really triggering and that it shouldn't be used for entertainment. You know, there was a lot of criticism around it. And I do, I do think it would be remiss of me, not. to bring up and full transparency, I've got skin in the game here because I had anorexia for a long time and I was part of, you know, I was very involved in the online groups that shared a lot of pro-anorexia content and super-sides versus super skinny was huge. It was huge in the 18 disorder community and it was really, it was very triggering but it was also, oh god, this fucking word, hungrily consumed.

I can't think of them. I'll have to say hungry for the rest of the day. You know, we, we, there was a, there was a huge appetite for it, for that content, you know, we can, we can, I, I distinctly remember watching it and getting tips from the, you know, I was, I would make myself, okay, maybe, maybe it's not helpful to get into that actually. No, no, no, no, you should, you should talk about it because it is really important to talk about it. I think it was just, it was, it was, it was really big in that community. And I do think that it probably did, you know, cause harm in that community. And there was a lot of criticism leveled at the producer, you know, the creators of the show around that. How did you, were you aware of that?

Were you aware that it was big in those communities at the time? And how did you feel about that criticism that it, that it copped? So that, that's interesting because, um, We worked with Beat. We did. Yeah. And we worked with Beat specifically on the anorexia strands, the films that we made in every series.

We never featured weight loss tips or revealed how the anorexics were controlling their weight. We didn't do anything like that. We were honestly working with experts in the field. But I think the point that you make that, If you have an eating disorder and that is the way you live your life, then you are going to be compelled to consume that content. I understand that and I can see why that's not right.

You know, I totally acknowledge that. But we did work with Beat a lot. We didn't make it without them. But I hear what you're saying. No, but I think that's really important. for us to know as well and to like you know round out that side of it because I don't think any of us are looking back thinking that there was like you know bad intention behind it or anything so I do think it's important to know that that you had good intentions and that you you know

you worked you did your due due diligence on that side of things I but but in full transparency I don't think we'd have understood the triggering element at the beginning I don't think we'd have understood that. We'd have thought we're doing something with purpose here. We're creating these films that have got something to say and understand about our relationship with food. But we wouldn't have thought, oh, this is a handy take-out supplement

for how you two can become anorexic and suppress your weight. And so I would say that we wouldn't have understood that enough at the time. And we absolutely do understand that. Yeah, which makes sense. we didn't understand that at the time. It was a completely different time. And we were used to seeing a lot of shocking content that didn't come with a trigger warning.

It wasn't softened. Yes. That was just how the culture was at the time. You're absolutely right. There was no warning before the episode or no. And obviously that responsibility lies with us, but it also relies lies with the broadcaster as well. But that is why you won't really see,

weight loss on television now because it is triggering. Can I ask about the language that we... The language that we use, it's kind of prolifer, it's kind of fake, like, I don't know, sometimes, and actually not one of your shows, but sometimes we see these clips on TikTok and you think, oh my God, I can't believe we ever use that sort of language. It does feel like the language that voiceovers, that sort of thing, has all changed. we wouldn't call people porkers now or what, and that wasn't one of your shows, but, you know, the way, we just wouldn't, we probably wouldn't be so derogatory about people's appearances in shows. How have you felt as a producer working? Because you're still doing, you know, shows that do centre around bodies, you know, doing dangerous diets and, like, you've done, deadly diets, sorry, you know, you're still focusing in this area, but just the way that we go about it has changed so much. How has that shift felt from the inside?

Has it been a very deliberate, like, we aren't going to talk like this anymore? Is it, again, just one of those things? It's just... I think you'd have to speak to the broadcasters, but I would say the broadcasters understand that that, why that content can be triggering and why it's not going to be on there. In terms of all television does is reflect what's going on in society. You know, so Kim Kardashian decides that she's going to use a Zampig.

to get into a Marilyn Monroe dress. Everybody wants to get their hands on a Zenpick. TV didn't decide, let's get your hands on a Zenpick. But what we do now is much more point up the warning signs of these things. And in all fairness, all of those programs have always done that. But it's just, it feels now, strangely enough, if you think about TikTok and Instagram, they are the ultimate sales tools. television is protected by offcom and guidelines it's got it's far more strict in what it says

and actually has a needs to level off the lies and false information that you get that's unchecked on other social media platforms so it's exactly the same desire as anybody who's in you know an overweight person who might have been in supersized versus super skinny or didn't like their body on how to look good naked oh my god Kim Kardashian she looks amazing she can get that If she can take that, I want to take it. You know, that's just, that's, we're now, so the desire hasn't gone away. People want to change their body, but they're looking for a different way to lose weight. So I suppose we are more responsible as program makers in that we want to make sure people know the flip side to those things.

That, yeah, dangerous diet drugs is, it's just tragic what people can buy online that's totally unregulated. That was the kind of takeaway we had in the episode where we were doing, looking at the tabloids. It stemmed from, Heat Magazine stemmed from, they wanted to make women feel better about themselves. And it just ended up on a very misguided, you know, that's what they believe their intention was. At the time, if we show celebrities not looking good, it will make you reading this at home feel better about yourself because you're seeing yourself in her maybe. when you hear it like that you go well it's fucked up but i can see how to it i can see it i can see the the very problematic twisted logic of that um and i do i think that there's an element there was a prevailing mood in printed press at the time also though that if you were famous

you were fair game so yeah yeah so i'm not retrofitting my my opinions here these are true opinions I think there's a tiny bit of retrofitting because I tell you what it does belong to a point and stare, laugh and goad and just because you're famous doesn't mean you're human. And we actually did a film like that with Anna Richardson about what it would be like

to have a camera pointed on you all day long. Yeah. And I do think it's unfair to think just because you're famous, you've offered yourself up to have that scrutiny. 100%. The celebrities themselves, not a hot take

not a popular take either were victims overwhelmingly are even still the ones making bad bad choices now and being bad influences and bad role models it's all a bit inevitable isn't it because we were just so mean which of your shows

I guess probably the ones that we've discussed in this interview which one are you most proud of of having made and having a part in sex education show okay yeah swiftly followed by embarrassing bodies yeah

I think that's really cool I liked embarrassing bodies for that makes you feel better about your stuff sex education was Anna Richardson right yes so that was a series when that was when we first getting to grips with the fact that children were looking at porn

on their phones it was that again was zeitgeist It was the advent of everyone having a smartphone and everything was on their phone and you couldn't stop what they were seeing. And so that was the story of teenagers looking at porn. So that probably had got high, that program had more viewing figures

than any of the shows we've discussed. Really? That's great. Yeah, that's great. That's really interesting. Yeah. Is there anything, and I guess it's hard because we've always learning,

but is there anything that you regret? I don't regret anything except for the idea that you need to have cosmetic surgery to look good. That's the only thing that it put a retrospect, looking back on it, it felt like we were putting another pressure on women to feel bad about the way they looked and they needed to do something about it. Thank you. This has been so interesting. much thanks car thank you for that should i delete that as part of the acast creator network