Should I Delete That? - "I made the wrong choices": Alice Liveing and the 'wellness' lie

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

Throughout our body image series - we’ve had so many powerful, inspiring and life-affirming conversations with people who have incredible advice on how we can build better relationships with our bodies. One of those people is Alice Liveing. Alice is a personal trainer, influencer, columnist, podcaster and bestselling author who has inspired thousands of people with her relatable, motivational and balanced health advice. In this conversation, we take a look back to the 2010s - when she inadvertently became the poster girl for so-called “clean eating”. We found out how Alice found herself in that situation and what led her to move away from it to build a healthy relationship with her body image. If you want to hear our full investigation of wellness - you can listen to our episode ‘The “Wellness” Rebrand’ which is available now. Follow @aliceliveing on Instagram You can buy your copy of Alice’s book Give Me Strength hereIf you would like to get in touch - you can email us on [e-mail] us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Dex RoyStudio Manager: Dex RoyTrailers: Sophie RichardsonVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Emma-Kirsty Fraser Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Should I Delete That. We are at the end of our body image series, guys. We really hope that you've enjoyed it and that you'd be able to take away some knowledge and advice that hopefully will go some way to helping you with your body image. I know that this deep dive has been super helpful for us too. We've loved being able to share extended versions of some of our interviews that we did as part of the series.

And we've got a very special one for you today. it's the wonderful Alice Living. Alice is a personal trainer and influencer, columnist, podcaster and bestselling author who has inspired thousands of people. In this conversation, we go back to the 2010s, where she found herself at the heart of the wellness industry and the steps that she's made to move away from it. Em and I will be back for a catch-up on Monday, but for now, here's Alice. You were well and truly at the forefront of the fitness industry at the time, that it kind of morphed into wellness and it became more of like a wellness industry

and that was moving away from the intense and over weight loss narrative and it became more about like a lifestyle approach. Can you give us a little bit of an idea as to what it was like working in the industry at that time? Yeah, I think absolutely. Like I entered the industry fresh out of dance college, like had a conditioning that there was only one form of like physical,

you know, optimal health. and so I perpetuated that absolutely for, you know, the initial phase of my career. I think that when things started to change, I remember actually, and I wrote about this in my book, that there was this moment where I recognised, and I was working as a personal trainer at the time, like I had clients that I was seeing on the gym floor, and so I was understanding from a firsthand level, like what women were coming in and wanting and how they were feeling about themselves. And I noticed that there were some women that were saying, not all of them, a lot of them still came in and were like, how can I lose weight and how fast

can I lose weight, you know, and it was still very much that. But there were others that were coming in and sort of saying, you know, I'm more interested in getting stronger. I'm more interested in training for feeling good in myself. And at the time, I was going through my own kind of questioning of like how healthy was my healthy and really was I pursuing what I believed to be like true health or was I actually just, you know, extreme dieting and over-exercising. And so in myself I started to have these own questions again that was then fed through the women that I was seeing and I guess I started to then go down this route of understanding that yeah maybe things needed to change a little bit and that change a lot and that maybe I could start having those like conversations with women that I was working with I guess to your question like what was that like initially it was difficult because I was in an industry that was predominantly men predominantly based off a one size fits all approach which was we personal trainers were there for people to lose weight with like there wasn't really anything other outside of that you know as a goal it was you know when I did

my personal training qualification the entire qualification is set up to teach people how to lose weight there wasn't really much outside of that so already you're conditioned into believing that that is how you approach your job and so at the time I was working at like you know a very popular London gym where everyone was doing the same thing it was client comes in how much weight you want to lose, put them on the scales. Off we go. Like, let's give you a program and let's do this. So when I started to do things a little bit differently and talk about that online, I remember this awful trainer who I worked with. Like, I still have the messages in my phone that I screenshot it because he was so awful. Obviously a man. You know, messaging me being like,

I think it's really like, how can you be a trainer that doesn't prioritize fat loss. I remember him saying things like, and I put, you know, I put the whole conversation in my book, but saying things like, um, uh, you know, what happens if someone comes to you and they do want to lose weight. Like you can't, you can't pick and choose who you want to work with. Um, you know, you're, you're putting your own bias onto other people. Like, how can you get away with that? And just was really awful to me. And, you know, at the time, I just thought that, um, you know, maybe I was going about things the wrong way or, you know, questioning whether what I was doing was right, but the more that I did it and the more conversations I had, the more I went on

my own journey, I realized that, oh my God, like, there's this whole other, like, exercise conversation to be had that sits outside of the fat loss conversation and nobody's really talking about it. And, you know, I wasn't spearheading that conversation. There were other people that were way better at doing that than me. But I think I looked to other people that were on that journey and thought, this is way more, I think, what I want to be about. And, you know, like I said, that was mirrored in my own journey that I'd then gone on. And that meant that I then changed how I approached training completely. And, you know, working with my clients transformed. I ended up actually seeing more people as a result, you know, having more people come to me. I remember

Saran Jones when she came to me. The reason why she'd come is she was like, I want someone that has a much more like holistic and nurturing approach to training. I don't want to be with someone that's like beasting me on the gym floor. And that was the first time that that had really had. happened and that was amazing. So yeah, I think that it was difficult at the time. There was definitely a pushback, particularly from, you know, trainers that had been in the industry for a long time and who were upset that the status quo was changing. But ultimately, I think we have benefited from the fitness industry now being in a completely different place to where it was and having been completely turned on its head. And now, you know, I've just

come from the gym this morning, like being on the gym floor today, seeing women, doing like amazing stuff like you know like being really strong like I love nothing more than like walking to the gym and seeing a woman like lifting really heavy weights I'm like yes I love this and I do think that it has really changed but I think that yeah there was that kind of upsetting of the apple car that happened and I think we're still coming out the other side of that I don't think we're fully in like an amazing place but I think that we are slowly getting to a point where things are a lot better than they used to be it's funny isn't it because it's like now it's very obvious that of course we can look at exercise independently of weight loss

and focus on it for its actual like health promoting benefits other than weight loss. But at that time in the mid 2010s that just didn't exist. That attitude didn't exist. Exercise was synonymous with weight loss and it was all completely wrapped up in weight loss. And I don't think I don't think a personal trainer or an influencer who didn't focus on, or who actively pushed weight loss aside, I don't think they would have succeeded in that, in that culture, do you, of the mid, of the mid-2010s? Like, absolutely not.

You know, like the reason why I, like, if you think about when I was successful in my career, I was 22 years old, fresh out of college, had zero qualifications, you know, bar a two-day, like, whatever it was, personal training course, hadn't really trained many clients, but had a career that was absolutely soaring and had people, asking me, you know, what do I do? How do I do it? Why? Because I looked the part. There was no questioning of like, is she qualified? Does she know what she's talking about? Has she got any experience of training like a diverse group of people to be able to give this advice? No. At no point was that ever a question. And at no point, like you have to remember,

like I think I, the confidence I had like back then was because I was completely enabled by the situation that we found ourselves in and absolutely I take responsibility for that for sure like now I look back and I cringe at like thinking that I had or this like complete confidence to tell people what to do and how to do it but that was the situation and you're absolutely right you know it was fat loss above all else and that was the only message that we gave out and so to your point yeah I would not have been successful if I didn't perpetuate that narrative for sure it's it's it is is really interesting. And I guess, and it speaks to the point that we're making within this episode, which is that it feels like wellness was just diet culture rebranded. It felt like

we were kicking diet culture to the curb and like focusing on our health and well-being and balance and moderation. But in reality, it's still everything boiled down to the way you look and the way you looked had to be thin. And your handle at that time, it was clean eating Alice, wasn't it? When did you change that? Probably, I think, This is a massive guess because I can't remember exactly. Did you? Sorry, we searched you this morning.

I did you actually? 2017, yeah, 2017. Yeah, 2017. I was going to say 2018. Yeah, 2017. You're ahead of your time. Because that, and again, clean eating was a huge part of that movement,

the mid-2010s movement, wasn't it? Is that where your handle came from initially? Yeah. You're like, I want to keep up with this. No, no, no. Clean eating Alice was literally born out of. So when I started my page, I was training at college. I was in my second year.

I had had this, like, horrific experience in my first year at the end of my first year where basically I'd had a sit-down meeting with my head of year. I'd done really badly in all of my assessments. I was desperate to be in the West End. And she basically said to me, you're not really going to get there unless you get stronger and you need to change, like, your vibe in terms of how you look. That was essentially, like, the undercurrent of the narrative that she was giving me. I start second year and I'm like, Jesus, like,

I want nothing more. Like, I've sacrificed so much to be at this college. Like, I've got a place here. I want to be, you know, a West End star. And I was made to believe that unless I changed how I looked, that wasn't going to happen. So I started the page because I was like, I need to lose weight. And I had spent my entire childhood, like, desperately wanting to lose weight. Like, my, you know, kind of focus and obsession on fat loss had started way before that.

You know, I had been dabbling. with dieting and, you know, not eating and all sorts of like really complicated relationships with food from, you know, 13, 14. But when I was at college, it was like, I'm going to do it differently this time, you know, rather than the special cater, I'm going to eat, you know, what was popular at the time, protein and veg and it was going to be really clean. And I think I'd seen the word online and just kind of took it and was like, well, that's what I'll call my page. Never in a million years did I think that I would end up having like this kind of massive platform that I did. It was more like this is an online food diary. I'm going to start this, what I believe

to be, like healthy lifestyle change. And I'm going to use that name as a kind of way of describing what I was doing. So I guess at some point, yeah, I picked up on the subliminal like trend of clean eating at the time. But I don't think that I truly knew like what I was doing. It was more just like, oh, I'd seen this name. That'll make sense. You know, like when you choose your first email address, like it's just like that. I was just like, okay, cleaning Alice, off we go. You've spoken since then quite openly about having some guilt for like the Fitsbo content. We can't say Fitsbo without hashtag. Can you talk about that?

It's such a weird word. Can you talk about that? Did you have any idea at the time that you were perpetuating something unhealthy? Or did it feel genuine when you were in the midst of it? I think, yeah, like hindsight's a wonderful thing. And I look back and, you know, yeah, I feel an immense sense of guilt because definitely. I played my part in causing a lot of problems at the time, I think, for a lot of people. At the time and in the moment, I wasn't conscious of that because I was so wrapped up in the world that I existed in, which was that everyone was doing the same and I didn't feel that there was anything wrong with what I was doing.

So I think that, you know, going back to my first answer about kind of the dust settling and me starting to grow up a little bit and realize the implications of what I was doing. Like I definitely started to become much more conscious of that. But at the time, no, I think that I, there was a point where I truly believed that what I was doing was healthy. And I think that was the problem that because of myself and many others at the time, being in that same environment where it compounds your belief that what you're doing is right. And also, like, not many people questioning that, you know, like I didn't have the wherewithal to, I guess, be critical about my own. own decision making. I just was like, well, nobody's telling me what I'm doing is wrong and I think I'm, you know, being healthy. And I remember like, you know, the people that I was surrounded with at the time and the environments that I existed in, it was absolutely like validating of my

behaviours. So no, like I didn't, if I'm being completely honest. I definitely did later on. But yeah, not at the time. Yeah, that's like totally fair enough. Yeah. We've talked loads about this as part of this episode but like this was the time that I I probably curated and ended up with the worst relationship I had with my body because I did and it is really hard to untangle like health from thinness when it's and I think that's what really like got me and so I ended up very immersed in it and I it's you don't know what you don't know and as you say like you're you think you're doing your best for yourself and because it is so tied up in health and cleanness,

you think it's all really good. But you've spoken since about how your health was suffering at that time, like massively. And you got, you lost weight to the point that your period stopped. How was that, like, was that your kind of moment of like,

oh my God, this is not as healthy, quote unquote, is what I feel like it is? Or how was that shift when you found out that you, when you realized that you'd made yourself ill with it? Do you know what's crazy as like? when I lost my period, so basically I'd been on the pill for a long time and I'd come off

that and it just so happened that I came off the pill and my period just didn't come back. So obviously when I was on the pill, I was having a, I hate to call it a fake period, I'm sure gynaecologist will tell me off, but you know, you have your like monthly bleed, but you're not technically ovulating. When I came off the pill, it just didn't come back. And I think the first few months I was like, oh, you know, maybe it'll take a little while to come back and then a bit longer went by and I was like, oh, you know, like, This is weird, but I didn't question it because I had had terrible periods when I was a teenager.

Going on the pill really helped me with that, you know, in terms of like pain and all that sort of stuff. And so I just kind of was like, well, this is nice. And I genuinely, I know this sounds awful now because like I could never do this now, but I just kind of forgot about it. Like I just buried my head in the sand. I didn't really think about it. I was so laser focused on exercising, eating. very little, like continuing to do those behaviours on such a cycle that my world became so small and my focus became so narrow that this sort of stuff might pass through my thoughts

once in a blue moon, but then I kind of move on to the next thing and forget about it. The only time that I started to then question it, and I fully credit her with like my recovery, basically, was when I met Emma Cannon, who was a fertility exes. expert and I think that she it was very serendipitous how we met but she was a client of a trainer that I was working I was working in a gym she was a client of another trainer there and she had said to me I'd sort of said to her we became sort of friendly and I'd said like oh I'm having some issues with my period and she was like come and see me we have this sit down and she asked me all these questions and I was like oh she's really asking me like a lot of weird questions like she was looking at my

tongue she asked me how much like exercise I'm doing what my bowel movements but like all this sort of stuff, like such a potted history of like my life. And I found that like almost a bit uncomfortable because I was like, God, she's really going in depth here. And then, you know, she sort of said to me like, do you want to have children? And I was like, oh, I mean, at the time I was, I don't know, like mid 20, early to mid 20s. And I was like, yeah, I would really love to have children. Like, there's always been something that I've wanted. And she was like, well, and she said it in a very nurturing way. Like it sounds really brutal when I said now. She was like, well, darling, if you want to have children, you're not going to be able to count.

carry on doing what you're doing now because that won't be possible, like basically said that. And I think it was the first moment where I was like, there are ramifications to what I'm doing. I think you can carry on behaving in a certain way without questioning it, especially in your early 20s where you feel invincible. You don't really think about your future, kids, life. Like you're just so wrapped up in like, I mean, I was incredibly selfish and very self-centered. And so that was the first moment where I was like, I am impacting like my. future here and I think from there it was almost like the complete unraveling of everything it was starting to question absolutely everything and be like oh my goodness like what am I doing

but that was the first moment that that happened it's really interesting and I guess ironic that people everyone like your account it was a huge huge deal and everyone was holding you up as the pinnacle of health and fitness purely based on what you look like yet both your physical and mental health are really suffering. And I think that's really reflective of the wellness trend and the toxic fitness industry, which sells wellness, sells health, sells, you know, fitness, but actually it can be really damaging and detrimental to your health.

Thinking about making a change from that moment when you knew you had to make a change, did that scare you then? Because you were held up as the poster girl, health and fitness, but, you know, not purely. I don't want to minimize the, like, the hard work that you did and everything, but a huge part of it was for what you looked like.

So the idea of looking different to that, did that scare you? Yeah, yeah, of course. The consequences of that. Absolutely. And, yeah, I mean, I think it was really evaluating, like, what meant more to me. Like, I think the idea of being able to have children, being able to have, you know, a life, a future. I was with Paddy at the time. I knew that, like, we were very solid.

I knew that I wanted to family. I knew that I wanted to have more, like, fun in my life. So, like, it was about, and I didn't do this alone, by the way, and I had, like, therapy, and I worked really hard on myself and had to for a long time to come out the other side. Like, this wasn't like a overnight, I'm fine again. Like, let me just move on with my life. It was, it was scary.

And it was also an unlearning of so much. I know for anyone that's experienced diet culture, like those learnings run deep, you know, whether it be, you know, as simple as like going into a supermarket and picking like the lowest calorie option for something or like, you know, looking at the back of a food packet when you're in a restaurant choosing the, you know, the lightest, whatever it might be, like all this stupid stuff that we ingrain in ourselves believing that we're like this, you know, kind of virtuous being, it runs deep and it takes a long time to unlearn. And so, you know, yes, it was scary. Yes, it felt challenging. And it was definitely like a long undertaking of, like I said,

like an unlearning of things. But it was definitely spurred by the fact that I saw there being so much more to life. There was like a moment that I had where I was like, what am I? doing. And I do actually think that age and having a partner who was never involved in diet culture and was so the antithesis of that who had this like, you know, I look at Paddy and think he had this like full life where he'd be like going out with his friends every weekend, like socialising, like doing so many fun things. And I had this tiny small life. Like my life revolved around such few things and it was so isolating and I just looked to him and I was like oh my god I want that like I want to be able to have that freedom of you know like doing all those

things so it was difficult but for me it was there was so much more that was going to benefit me about making that change than there was that scared me about doing it. thinking to the industry at the time you know like you say we all have those kind of like ingrained little things that informed our decision making and still inform a lot of our decision making now wherever we picked it up are there ways that you can think of or examples in which the wellness industry took advantage of our kind of like vulnerability in this space or misunderstanding of food and health as a whole, an exercise. God, so much.

I mean, for a starter, like, that being thinner as being better, you know, like that's prioritised over anything else. There was so much, you know, like, even the kind of the calories in versus calories out conversation, like, I have a big issue with that because I think that what happens is people learn, like, a very basic formula. they then go out and perpetuate that to people saying, oh, if you do this, you'll lose weight. They put people on silly calories.

They downregulate their metabolism. They then give people really complex relationships with food. And then they just expect them to like carry on as though nothing's happened and have to like just continue on eating, you know, very little. And any time that they do eat more than that, of course their body weight is going to change. And then like just pushing people out and having that problem to deal with themselves. I think you basically set people up for life with like complex relationships. with food. So that in itself I have an issue with. Yeah, so many things like, you know,

our relationship with exercise. It was, you know, we've told people this is best, that's best. You've got to do this for, you know, for this and that for that. And the reality is that, you know, time after time after time, you know, the evidence has shown that all movement is beneficial. But actually like consistency with any form of movement is better than, you know, hailing something as being the best thing we can do for our bodies and, you know, relearning that And just, you know, I look at like all of the problems that we have. And I just think that we, we've tried to oversimplify and package up, I guess, health in this like really, like oversimplification of health. You know, like how many calories you eat, you know, how much exercise you do. And I think that what I have definitely realized, particularly as I move now into like a different stage of my life where I'm thinking about different things, like you just realize that. You just realize that. it's a lot more complex an individual than it's made out to be when I was, you know, starting out in my career. And there are so many more things that come into play when it

comes to what influences our health. And so I think that yes, like, you know, moving our bodies is important. Eating, you know, a varied and balanced diet is important. Those things do matter, but also like that are two pieces of a much bigger puzzle that people need to take into account when it comes to how they feel and how they, you know, impact their health. And so I think where I feel the fitness industry have its biggest problem is we are not qualified to be giving half the advice that we're giving firstly. Like as an industry, unless you've done further qualifications to basically, you know, be qualified as a nutritionist or anything kind of in the nutrition space or you've done kind of a further degree or qualification,

the majority of personal trainers out there are not qualified to be telling people what to eat, giving people diet plans, giving people calories to eat, like, and what's happening is that as a result of that, we, and I understand it because there's this big gap, right, that people don't have the means to see, you know, a nutritionist who might be a lot more expensive than going to your local gym and seeing a personal trainer for however much an hour, I get that, but it means that we are damaging people, basically, you know, and causing a lot of issues as a result of that. And I think that that's pretty problematic. And just like just all the conflicting information.

Like that's so like more harmful I think than, okay, not more, equally as harmful as the wrong information. It's just everything conflicting. It makes eating so complicated. But you not think that's why they do it. It's like let's make it really confusing and let's confuse people to the point that they can only come to us for the answer

and we are the solution. That's what diet culture essentially is. Like let's just give people consistent mixed messaging. Like think about when we were. growing up. I know that we're like roughly similar. Just like, I cannot tell you how many diets I saw my mum be on. You know, it was like Atkins. Then it was the do can diet. Then it was a special K diet. Then it was this. It's like you just replace the problem with a new problem because to keep people confused is to keep people engaged in the system of constantly feeling as though they need to do the

next thing to lose weight. That's how it works. I genuinely like believe that if we can break people free from thinking that there is this like big solution. You know, we talked about I know we don't want to go there that much, but talk to about OZMPIC. Like, why are people going to OZMPIC? Because it's like, oh, it's the next thing that's guaranteed to make you lose weight. And, like, people are just spending their lives chasing thinness. And it's a constant hamster will that you will find yourself on. And unless you have the confidence to break free from that and to recognize that, like,

that is a really horrible place to find yourself and can be for some women, like a lifelong pursuit that they never live. live up to, then we're going to continue having these problems and women are going to continue being, you know, fed stuff that keeps them on that hamster wheel. Tons of conflicting information, but something that everyone seemed to agree on during the period of the wellness period of the mid-2010s was that carbs were bad. Yeah. And they were being replaced left, right and centre.

Why was that? Do you know what's so funny is like, it's such a good question. I'm like, I don't actually know. You know, like, it's one of those things where this is, this is again something that happens is that like there will be a belief that's spoken about, you know, whether that be carbs are bad or there will be maybe a piece of research that is deeply misinterpreted by someone who I might have looked up to at the time who says like, oh, you know, there's this that's come out that said carbs, you know, retain more water or whatever.

you know, can make you feel bulkier or bloated or whatever. And immediately, I think that people like myself who weren't qualified enough to be able to actually read the research or actually interpret that data and say, okay, let me look at this. And this is interesting and this is what this is saying. And actually, you know, that's not what the paper is saying there. I are not saying that. I go to, well, someone else online has said it.

I'm going to believe that to be true. So I'm going to perpetuate that to my audience. And my audience are going to then perpetuate that to their audience. And suddenly it has this trickle-down effect. of everyone just eliminating carbs and nobody really going why you know like and i think that's another thing like like at some point like i just started to question why i was doing these things like at no point in that like initial phase was i like why am i doing this you know why are carbs bad i don't know like if someone had said to me at the time like why aren't you um having carbohydrates in your

breakfast and subbing them for some like grated corsette or whatever other bullshit that we did um I actually don't know if I'd have had an answer, but you just did it because everyone did it. And it's like, it's that. It's like the monkey see, monkey do. Like you just copy whatever everyone else is doing because you believe that that to be the thing that you should be doing. And I think that's where social media is really harmful because we place people on a pedestal like myself. And because I was doing that, how many other people then believe that and then did that themselves? And I was doing because I'd seen someone else do it and thought, oh my God, that's what I need to be doing. Like, I'm going to do that. So I just think that, um, It's a really good point. Nobody really questions why with a lot of this stuff. Even like now, you know, why is hitting a certain protein target, like, important. Like that is, that does, that's a bad example actually because protein is a little bit more important. But like, why are we, you know, worrying about X, Y, or Z food wise? Like there'll be something like seed oil seem to be like the thing that people are talking about at the moment.

And what happens is that you have this whole. body of people who are desperately trying to feel better. Like, I believe as a population, like, there are people that just want to feel better and who are desperate for the next solution to get them there. And what happens is that they become this like vulnerable group who listen to, you know, whoever it may be that's going to say something. And what we do and what's so poisonous and toxic about the wellness industry is we distill things, again, going back to that oversimplification, we distill things down into these like little sound bites or things that people should do in the hope that they believe that in changing that

one thing, it's going to have this drastic difference to their health. So like, you know, let's like demonize seed oils. Let's demonize this. Let's demonize that. Let's make people believe that like if they just change that one thing, everything else is going to be better. And again, like it keeps people buying into this like, oh, like I need to eliminate that. I need to not have this. I need to spend loads of money on this supplement. I need to make sure I'm having this. And that's what I think the issue is. I think that it's just kind of like people don't know enough to question why. So they, they oftentimes, and I'm the same by the way. Like I definitely did this. Believe things to be true. You know, interpret that into my own lifestyle and then perpetuate

that to other people and, you know, suddenly you've got this long chain of people doing something and not really understanding actually why they're doing it. Thinking to your personal growth throughout this time, obviously you made the decision that you wanted to move away from clean eating and you wanted to quote unquote clean eating and take a broader and healthier approach to your own life and therefore in turn your brand because the two are synonymous. But as we know, society isn't very good at letting women evolve, grow or change or be complex in any way have you struggled and if so in what way with the kind of two-dimensional

way that we view women and like sort of the misrepresentation I suppose that is probably quite inevitable that comes as you want to move away from something but while still working in an industry that's always seen you as one thing how's that been that's a really good question And I think that you're absolutely right. We don't like change and we don't like people like going back on things that they've said to be true. And I, to a certain extent, I really understand why someone would find it hard to see that, you know, a year ago I was saying this and now I'm saying that and why is that? And, you know, I do, I do get that to a certain extent. but more selfishly, I think that I got so much happiness from making changes

out genuinely outside of social media. Like I would say now, like my life has so much richness and like I have worked hard offline to be a better and happier person that like I think it's reflected in my content And I think that that's what's actually, like, I haven't felt this need to overtly prove that I am, you know, like this better person or anything like that. I just think that like I went away and I worked on myself. And as a result, like, my content did change. And, you know, maybe I look slightly different and maybe I talk about different things. But like, that all came from a very genuine place of like self growth offline. But to your question about like, you know, do I feel that there are certain people who want to hold me up to that sand and that I can never change in that? Yeah, of course there are those people. Hopefully I've like got rid of most of them now. But there will still be people who think that. And to them I say, you know, I just, I think that like what a sad world we would live in that you would never be able to learn and grow from your mistakes. Obviously, I feel an immense sense of gratitude. that people have stayed with me. I think that the reason why that probably happened was because the journey is so similar to so many

that other women go on, right? You know, you're like, you diet yourself to a point of illness and then you suddenly go, oh my God, what the hell am I doing? And life becomes bigger and you realize that there's more to life than thinness and then you change. And I think there is a lot of women

that have been on that journey and that recognize that and can see themselves in what I went through. I have grown and become stronger and knowing that what I'm doing now is a lot better for me, for, you know, like my health, my life, my happiness and I would hope that that's been reflected in what I now talk about and how I now, you know, approach everything that I do.

Big question for you. Oh, wow. Has there been anything over the last 10 years that you would do differently if you were given your time again? Yeah, a lot of things. like I remember you know starting out and I remember this feeling that I got like if I think back like when I think back to why everything happened the way it did like it makes so much sense to me now that I've been able to reflect on my life when I was at school I never felt

like I was like the popular girl you know I always felt like I was a bit of an odd one out I was like desperately trying to be in like the group of girls that were like really popular and whatever and I never felt like I quite fitted in. And so all my life up to that point where I started them at my page, I kind of felt like I was clinging on to this like version of myself that I desperately wanted to be and never quite achieved. You know, I never really, I had like crazy first relationship which like decimated my confidence. I then, you know, spent a year rebuilding myself and having lots of complex issues as a result of that. And when I arrived at college for that first year,

I felt back in that place that I was at school where I was like, I don't fit in. I feel like I look different. I don't like how I am. I don't like who I am. And so when I started my Instagram page, it was like, oh my God, like I have hundreds of thousands of people who are telling me that they love me and that like they love what I'm doing. And so this is what I've wanted my whole life. Like I wanted to be popular and liked and, you know, all those things. And suddenly I have it. So obviously I'm going to cling on to that. Like, why wouldn't you? Like, I suddenly felt like I'd like hit the jackpot. And so, of course, because of that, you turn a blind eye to a lot of the things that you're doing that maybe at the time you were like, you know,

maybe this isn't so good. But above all else, I'm getting everything that I've done. want. My career is soaring. You know, I'm having people tell me every day like, oh, you're great, you're this, you're that, you're inspiring. And so, yeah, like, I clung on to that for way longer than I should have. So when I look back on things and I think, I wish I'd done that differently, it wasn't because at the time I was like, oh, like what I'm doing is awful, but it was more that I was so swept up in this, like, adoration that I couldn't see. that like massively under-eating, you know, and also not being 100% honest about what I was eating.

That's another big thing. Like a big regret is that definitely for a while, there would be this like showing what I was eating, but that not being the full picture. And I know that that to be true for so many other influences that obviously, like at the time we were in the same vibe, there was a lot of smoke and mirrors. And I hate that.

I hate that I did that. I'm not a liar. and I don't like, you know, being dishonest, but that was just the reality. Can you elaborate on what that? Yeah, so like if I was having like a breakfast, you know, I might have like two slices of toast on the plate with the picture of whatever it was I was having. And then before I started eating it, I'd take the toast off. I remember going for a dinner with another person in my world and we both had our partners

there and we both ordered salads, I think, and our partners both ordered burgers and we both took pictures of their meal and posted that as like out for dinner having a burger and that wasn't true and obviously like that is so bad but particularly in that scenario and in others it was like you just I don't know I just didn't question it and I I, I had that, if there were one thing and I write about that a lot in the book, like this guilt that I feel is probably, you know, like I, I feel that there was a level of dishonesty that I'm really uncomfortable with now, but that I definitely did at the time. And so, yeah, I would say like that. And just more generally, like maybe not being open about how it was mentally feeling as well. You know, I had a lot of that stuff. I think the number one thing that I would say, happened to me as a result of diet culture is like this chronic loneliness that my world became so small and I prioritised going to the gym and like eating off like such a restrictive menu that I barely did anything that I had not really many friends at all or the people that

I was friends with were doing the same as me so it was kind of like we just all validated each other and and I I just felt like unbelievably lonely and so I think that like I regret I regret that because I think I missed out on a lot of my 20s. The reason why now, like, I am so passionate about, like, having this, like, full social life and, like, probably why I haven't had kids yet and stuff is because I'm, like, I feel like I'm making up for, like, the life that I missed out on when I was in my 20s. Like, I'm now going out loads, like, having so much fun with my friends and doing all the things that I just really, like, missed out on.

And that's sad. Like, I'm sad that I did that. that. So yeah, there was, there's a lot of regrets. There's a lot of things that I would do differently. But like I said at the time, it wasn't that in the moment I was like, this is really bad. It was that I was so swept up in only seeing the good that I didn't really recognize that that stuff was maybe more problematic than it was. Yeah. Can I just dig into really quickly that guilt that you mentioned, you know, the guilt that there was a level of dishonesty to what you were telling your audience. Obviously it was a big audience. How do you like now recognize

saw that guilt and as you were coming to the realization that you hadn't been honest and that it was smoke and mirrors how do you how that must have been hard to feel that guilt suddenly and try to to like grapple with that yeah I think yeah but I'd way rather be honest about that now than not like I could easily just sit here and be like you know everything was great I never really did nothing wrong. Like everything is fine. But that doesn't really solve the problem. Because also like I see now that same problem being perpetuated by like this whole new

generation of people that are doing the same thing that we did when we were growing up. And even more in a terrifying way because they have access to so much more. But I think, you know, I've had, you know, had to work on that side of things. But I don't sit here like wanting sympathy. Like I'm not, I hope it doesn't seem as. that I'm like, oh, where was me? Like, you know, I make choices and they were the wrong ones. And ultimately, like, I have to be conscious of the fact that, you know, and by the way,

like, it wasn't that I was doing that loads. I wasn't like every day, like posting different things. Like, if you scroll back on my page, like, a lot of the meals that I was posting were silly low calories and eliminating carbs and blah, blah, blah. But, you know, on the times that I did do that, yeah, for sure there's guilt around that. but um you know like everyone makes mistakes in their lives and everyone makes choices and has you know an ability to reflect and learn from the choices that they've made that might not necessarily have been the right ones how i reconcile with that is that i just try and do better now

like how how else can i change it like i can't go back i can't do anything except be like i hold my hands up and i did this and it's really toxic and i'm really ashamed of it but I want to do better and be better and so that's all that I can do. I actually think that's more powerful than anything. Like this is something that we come back to in this series time and time again. We're constantly saying that everyone is only a victim of their own environment and culture at that time and we only knew what we knew at that time. And I think it is incredibly powerful to hold your hands up and be like and acknowledge that

and be like, hey, I just didn't know. any better at that time and actually I think it's super impressive like rather than double down and like and I guess try and fight away the cognitive dissonance by being like no what I was doing was right it had purpose I had good intentions like rather than I'm not saying you didn't have good intentions but rather than leaning into that and doubling down to recognize and accept this wasn't right and I don't agree with this anymore and like I want to change my perspective on this and be open and public about that I think that's cooler than anything. and so I don't mean to like put blame on you

when I talk about you know guilt or push you on that you know just it's it's a journey isn't it I guess understand but I think that's such growth and it's so empowering to be able to make that transition from like hang on this isn't right what I'm doing isn't right

I'm recognising it and I'm going to go from here and make a difference to my audience now I think it's really cool thanks yeah before we set you free can I just ask you what you think given the fact that we know as empeck is like booming in popularity we're seeing thin his back trends we are watching another kind of like really big shift the likes of which i don't think we've seen since this time we've been talking about what do you think the future

of wellness or even the diet culture what do you think the future looks like i think the future looks complex. I think that the accessibility to thinness is so easy now, that I think that that is what is making it such a, a repeat of what we experienced. I see firsthand now that there is a cohort of young girls, some of which I like follow who have had drastic physical changes. And of course, because I'm someone that's been in that place, I can sympathise with probably what's going on for them. Like, I have changed my body. I feel that I am now, you know, achieving like ultimate, like, you know, status, you know,

I feel whatever good in myself and people are telling me I look amazing. So it validates that what they're doing is right. But I am really, really genuinely worried about what that's doing for the next generation. I am fearful that accessibility to weight loss drugs to, you know, things like body contouring treatments that are now available on your high street, you know, all that sort of stuff. I think that we have come far in some worlds, but not in others. and I think it would be really misleading to just assume that because maybe us sitting in this room are like, diet culture is bad, we're very much like, you know, kind of moving on from that and we have healed from a lot of the problematic things that maybe we once did to assume that that is everyone that's in the same boat. And I just think that like, I often think that this stuff trickles down from celebrity culture. That's where we often look to first. So it goes celebrity. social and then down to like, you know, your average person and just look at what's happening in the celebrity world. Like, look at what is happening across the board to every person,

the people that we thought, oh, she's doing things differently. She doesn't feel like she has to conform. Oh, no, suddenly, what? Like this person's halved in size and that is where we're at. Like it's just, and, you know, I've had so many conversations. I think one of the things that's really powerful is like speaking to my mom about, like her stuff that she experienced. Like my mom was putting Weight Watchers age 12. Like my mom has been on a lifelong, like a journey with her body and all that sort of stuff.

And I look to that and I think she must have looked at me and thought, well, we're just back here again. And now I'm getting to the stage where I'm thinking, like, do I want to have children and all that sort of stuff? And I'm like, I'm probably going to be back here again. And like, I don't quite know how we break the cycle is basically what I'm trying to say. like we'll have people that break out and do things differently for sure but when I look at the majority of people that that I think are existing right now particularly women I think

we haven't come that far at all sadly isn't that really depressing yeah but you're right yeah inclined to agree with you yeah Alice was so good thank you so much you're both so lovely and I really appreciate it and yeah I hope that that was helpful it was amazing thank you Alice should I delete that as part of the ACAST creator network