Should I Delete That? - "I was 15 when my naked picture was leaked"... with Jess Davies

Episode Date: June 8, 2025

In recent episodes, we’ve been discussing the disturbing rise in male violence against women and girls, and how technology is accelerating and amplifying these threats. From AI-generated deepfakes to the non-consensual sharing of intimate images, the digital world has created new frontiers for abuse and it’s more important than ever to talk about it.Today, we're continuing that conversation with presenter, women’s rights campaigner, and former model Jess Davies.Jess opens up about her personal experience of being a victim of image abuse multiple times in her life, including when she was a child. She talks about the long-lasting impact that trauma had on her sense of self, her career, and her relationships and how she has used that experience to become an advocate for women. Jess’s new book No One Wants To See Your Dick - is a handbook for survival in the digital world to help us understand and tackle online misogyny and question society's understanding (or lack of) when it comes to consent. You can buy your copy here!Follow @_jessdavies on Instagram Jess’s BBC documentary ‘Deepfake Porn: Could You Be Next’ was used to lobby the UK government to criminalise deepfake porn in the Online Harms Safety Bill. You can watch it here!JOIN US FOR OUR BIGGEST EVER LIVE SHOW - we'll be taking over Edinburgh's iconic Usher Hall for one night only on 3rd September 2025 for an evening of unfiltered chat, big laughs, and meaningful connection, live on stage. You can buy tickets at SIDTlive.com!If you'd like to get in touch, you can email us on [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Dex RoyVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Sarah EnglishMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So when I looked on his phone, the first thing was an image of me totally naked in his bed sleeping. Oh my God. And he'd taken it and sent it in a lad's group chat without my concern. Hello and welcome back to Should I Delete That? Recently on the podcast, we've been discussing the disturbing rise in male violence against women and girls and how technology is accelerating and amplifying these threats. From AI generated deepfakes to the non-consensual sharing intimate images. The digital world has created whole new forms of abuse and it's more important than ever to talk about it. Today we're carrying on that conversation with presenter, women's rights campaigner and former model Jess Davies. Jess told us about her experience of

being a victim of image-based abuse multiple times in her life, including when she was a child. She talks about the long-lasting impact that that trauma had on her sense of self, her career, her relationships and how she's used that experience now to become an advocate for women. Jess's new book, No One Wants to See Your Dick, is a handbook for survival in the digital world to help us understand and tackle online misogyny and question society's understanding or lack thereof when it comes to consent. As a heads up, this episode contains references to image-based sexual abuse and sexual violence. Here's Jess. Hi, Jess.

Hello. Thank you so much for coming in today. Thanks to having me. In your gorgeous purple suit. Well, thank you. Jess's wearing like a lavender and lilac striped suit. And it's very cool. That was so specific.

I liked it a lot. Did you? Yes, two shades of purple identified. That is what it is. I'm not clever of me, was it? A little vintage special. Is it? Is it?

I admire you for that. That's very cool. You've come in to talk to talk to about your book, which is called No One Want to See Your Dick. it is fantastic title thank you please can you tell us about it yeah so it's one of them titles where it sounds great but trying to like talk on you know like

daytime TV or radio is always really interesting this one I did Lorraine and it was no one wants to see your penis and then I've done radio and then they said no one wants to see your other word for Richard so I was like okay I like the kind of you know way that people are going with it but it just came about because it's a book all about online misogyny

and the different subcultures that come from that. So the title is inspired by the cyber flashing chapter, which is digital exposure. So when someone sends you an intimate image of them, without consent, which is mostly dickpicks. And it was just something that I'd experienced for so many years, you know, 10 plus years when I've been online, of guys sliding into my DMs on Instagram and tweeting me,

and then like sending me them on email, like finding my work email. And it was something that for so long, I just kind of like normalise. Oh, this is, this is just what happens. It's just the internet. And I'm sure so many women have experienced that as well. So then I started, you know, campaigning around it

and to help make it a crime, which it is now in the UK, to distribute without consent with an intent law in it. But so that was the inspiration really behind the title. And kind of get straight to the point. Have you had a dick pick for a while? I feel like I haven't had one for a while. Do you know what? Not for a while.

The last what, I can tell, I can tell in message, request when there's one lurking in there. Yeah. But actually the last one I got was on the tube. I got airdropped one. Did you? Yeah.

And I like opened it by accident. Like it took a few seconds to register like what. And my sister was sitting next to me. So I was like she sending me something. But it's from iPhone. That's weird. Open it and it's a dick pick. And I was like, oh my God.

Someone in this vicinity who's definitely looking to like he'll see my reaction. And I was like, I hate that I opened it. But it's so scary. isn't it because that's so common like it's so common like it's so common on the tube on trains and it is like you say that thing of because you have to be in close proximity to air drop someone like it feels so much more invasive yeah it's it's horrible but it happens a lot I often get like I phone request um air drop request on a tube to flip it's really embarrassing like sending a friendship of your willie to someone that you don't I know it's the biggest and I know like that's not the point and I know it's it's sexual harassment and assault. And it's like, I know it's more than that. But also, it is just really embarrassing. It is that thing of, you know, you always hear men online be like, oh, I'd never date a girl who's like, on only fans, or I'd never date, she's not wifeing material. And it's like, but, okay, I'd never date someone who air drops their penis pictures on the tube. Like, you just

wouldn't know that someone does that, you know? And it's like, yeah, there's so many things, unfortunately, in this face that men do, um, that it's like, yeah, that's not given the husband material either, by the way. And you, I don't know, it's really weird, because I do feel like I'm kind of getting to a point where I can categorize like, okay, so he's, I mean, so generalised, because I know we're saying not all men, but like, I do feel like we're getting to a point where you can kind of recognize like stag do behavior and like that kind of problematic. And then you've got, you know, full-blown, like sexual assault perpetrators.

And I feel like we're getting to a point where you can sort of categorize, but there is this sort of loose gray area where I don't know where I feel like flashing probably goes into where it's like, do they mean it as a joke? Do they mean it specifically to be threatening? Were they not told that they were loved enough? Like, I don't, the psychology of it, I find really curious. Yeah, I think so much of it comes down to power. And it's such a power play of being like, I'm going to send you this and you're going

to see this and there's nothing you can do about it. And I think that's probably similar to like in-person flashing. It's like such an invasion. And it's like that shock factor of like, you have to see this because I'm literally forcing you. And I think unfortunately that comes into so much. different avenues of like sexual assault and sexual harassment it's kind of such unwanted attention yeah i'm getting angry now because how many times on the internet do you see men in comment sections

going and this woman's just attention seeking this woman's just attention seeking why didn't they never why aren't they commenting that underneath any article about flat well there aren't any articles about flashing actually even though it does haven't all the time when i moved into my old house the house i lived in before there was a flasher on the common and we got a note from the police saying can school kids please avoid the park between 8am and 10 a.m. Because that's when he's flashing. I was like, what could the police not go? And they said, they basically said, please be vigilant.

We can't have someone there at all times. So please can children and parents be vigilant? And I got really cross because I went on a walk a little while later. And the dogs police were there. And they were giving a £70 fine to a Labrador owner for having the dog off the lead. And I was like, if you can stand here. Really? When on the other side of the park, I got very cross. and I said it.

It's not your fault, but also, yeah, so infuriating. But it is that thing, though, with, like, in-person, flashing on, you know, indecent exposure and online, it's seen as such a low-level crime, like it is non-contact sexual offences. But unfortunately, like, there has been cases where someone has started off doing, you know, flashing in person and then gone on to commit, like, the worst crime. It's like, obviously the most obvious one, I guess, that's been in the news, is Wayne Cousins, who murdered Sarah Everard, you know, that started off.

as in-person flashing and he was reported multiple times to the police and they didn't even look into it and then look what happens. So it is that thing of like, you know, brushing it off and like with that experience, I mean, the police, it's like, oh, we can't be there all the time and it's like, okay, but if it was like a mass murder or like a serial rapist that was going around, would you then take it seriously? Like it's kind of like we have to go in at the low level ones to stop it from, you know, carrying out into something more serious. But also it's traumatising for schoolgirls to see a great man's willie. Yeah, sorry, I don't want to say Willie. There was a flasher who, like, hounded, like, the little yard of our school.

Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there were, like, gaps, basically that he would, like, you know, and he, it happened so much. And the worse is like, oh, yeah, it would happen when the year sevens were in the yard. Oh, my God. Really awful, really horrible, yeah. Oh, my God. That's awful.

That's crazy. I actually don't know what the police involvement was. I didn't, I was, like, I think, a year nine myself, like, at the time. time but he was really persistent gosh that's on hinge yeah i just remember what like there was a year seven girl that like fainted after she saw it and i was like it was so horrible oh that is horrendous isn't there and there's so much that teenage girls like are expected to put up with or navigate at such a young age like always talk about how teenage girls you know that that kind of trope of oh girls just mature faster and it's like do they or is that actually just like forced on us to

we have to mature faster and kind of navigate our own way around like male entitlement and being sexualized from such a young age because then when we look at like the wider scope of how society works it's like well if that was true and girls matured faster like why are they not in more leadership roles you know and it's like oh okay so we only ever say girls mature faster when it's to do with like having to navigate their sexualization or you know navigate men's entitlement or how to reject men early and all of that and you know there's so much conversation at the moment around teenage boys which is such a big part of the conversation or how we solve this, you know, the online misogyny,

but also the epidemic of violence against women. And I think everyone in the UK has basically seen Netflix's adolescence. But so often we leave behind the teenage girls and we just expect them to navigate it by themselves. And unfortunately, that means that a lot of the times they do become victims, whether that's of image abuse or in-person violence because we're not giving them the tools. We're not saying we need to fund, you know, from the government,

fund workshops to go in and talk to teenage girls and talk to them about their experiences. It's all about we've got to save the teenage people. boys but like the girls are the victims of the boys misogyny so not only are they the victim the teenage boys misogyny but they're also the victim of adult grown men and they've got it I think it's you're right it's so normalized and as you were saying about the school flasher we had a guy at school who he would come with a teddy bear and he would ask us to smile like hold his teddy bear and smile for photos and I remember him asking and we did it because it was like it's this man and he

comes at you and you're like well what am I like you just you want to make and go away it's like yeah we'll just do what you're asking and then there was a big assembly about it and it was like don't pose for this man's photo it's like yeah but how okay then what like so we say no is he going to like we're 13 yeah yeah did you chase you know why do something about it do something about it rather than telling all the children like oh yeah just say no kids yeah i do some workshops um facilitating in schools and colleges and when we talk to teachers even like the female teachers. And obviously it comes from like a well, you know, mean in place. But some of the older female teachers would be like, oh, well, you know, if we experienced that on the walk home,

we would just tell them to F off? And it's like, yeah, but why would that be your answer? Like, why do you think teenage girls at 13, 14 years old should have to confront like a grown adult man who's sexually harassing them? Like, why don't we try and solve the problem, which is misogyny, like in the first place. So the men don't harass the teenage girls at that age, you know? And it's sad because, like, I'm in my 30s now. And my first six years. And my first six three and with image abuse was when I was 15. My first experience of misogyny or sexism was when I was 10, really. And, you know, when I first developed boobs and, you know, all these years on,

I go into schools and I talk to young people and that's still their experience now. Like, we haven't moved on at all in trying to navigate that kind of victim-blame and narrative or putting all the onus on teenage girls. And then everything comes in, like, now we have the internet and social media and, like, all that comes into play. So it is difficult for teenage boys at the moment, but we always forget, like, to mention how difficult it is for teenage girls as well. What was your first experience of abuse at 15?

It was when I had sent an image to a boy in my school, who's a year old and me that I fancied. And then that image got Bluetoothed around the entire school. Then it got shared around my hometown, which is a small hometown in Wales. I kind of like everyone knows everyone. Then it ended up on the phones of grown adult men, the local football team.

And everyone knew my age because I was, you know, quite well known. Like I said, it was a small town. and yet the whole narrative was around how it was my fault like well I shouldn't have sent it and what kind of girl are you and there's never any conversation around why are you know men in their 20s and 30s passing around a child's image and it was really that sense of having to deal of that at such young age again like that navigating it as a teenage girl like okay what do I do do I run away do I confront it do I just laugh off like try and laugh it off and that's what I did I kind of thought, okay, I'll just kind of embrace it because everyone's seen it now. And, you know,

I'd have boys in year seven run up to me in the school corridor and be like, can I have a hug and I've seen your pictures? And you're kind of laughing, but secretly, like, this is humiliating, you know? And then, like, my parents found out about it because someone had told my nam, because she knew someone on the football team. And, you know, it's like, there's always that sense of like, you shouldn't have sent that or why was it you? And, you know, again, I think from parents it comes from, like, wanting to protect you. But it's like, there was never a conversation from anyone really in the school and that about why is this so normalized

that people are sharing this without consent and then from then on really it's just been something that's been so constant in my life in the public sphere of like when I was doing modelling and my image has been reused without my consent but also privately of people someone I knew like taking an image of me when I was naked without my consent

and sharing it in a lad's group chat and it just becomes something that to me like you internalise it so much you know again being like 1819 and thinking like this must be my fault like it must be something that I'm doing like this is just what happens and it's only like when you get older and you have these conversations with more women and you know they say you know your frontal load develops they say you start looking back on things being like yeah that wasn't

okay and for me it's like no one ever took responsibility on the paper trader's side of like why they did that it was always on me to navigate that feeling and be like oh well there must be something I did and I've got to deal with the trauma and then no one ever had to kind of be like oh yeah I'm sorry that that happened I was going to ask whether any repercussions for the perpetrator at all. No, nothing. No. If it was a small town and do you still, are your parents still there?

Yeah. How is it now? Is it just part of the tapestry? Yeah, it's just something that happens. And I think unfortunately, like I'm not the only woman or young girl in that small town that's happened to and definitely not on the wider scale. And I talk about this in the book, but I think something that is so prevalent, which is really scary is collector's culture in these spaces.

So you see on some forums where women's intimate. images will be filed under folders and one specific one was of my hometown and a woman from my hometown reached out to me asking for help so then I did a bit of research on it in the folder and I was like there was all these requests about 30 40 requests for this small Welsh town on this forum I'd never heard of as someone who works in that space I'm like not only do these men in this small town know about this like foreign forum but there's enough of them on there to be answering each other's requests and uploading and sharing women's intimate images without consent. So unfortunately, you know, I think I'm just one of many that that's happened to

in that town and, you know, one of literally millions across the world that's had their images shared without their consent or repurposed. And I think, again, it's become part of just like life on the internet and technology, but it's like, why, like, why do we have to accept that? Like, it's a crime to start with. And yet so much is, it's just brushed off like, oh, well, you shouldn't have took it. You shouldn't have posted it on that site if you're, you know, a creator maybe or what. It's like, we understand consent as individuals when it comes to like, our Netflix subscription. And, you know, we can't repurpose a film on Netflix. Like, why do you think you can repurpose a woman's, like, image of her body without her consent, you know? And yeah,

so I think there's so far to go when it comes to digital consent and seeing that as something that is needed. I'm so sorry that happened to you. That is so, it is actually so awful. And like, it makes me sad that you were like figuring out how to navigate it. And it was like, okay let's laugh it off but like that's so hard because how do you navigate that that is uncharted territory and especially like as a 15 year old when you're feeling like awkward and uncomfortable anyway and then like all of these that is really really hard yeah sorry for the little you that's really horrible I know it's that thing now obviously like it's been so many years past by but like I talk about it because I'm like I'm talking for all the other women and girls

that are still experiencing that like I say when I go into schools like girls talk about that pressure of how they feel like they if you know boys in their school are asking them to send images they're like well if you don't send it then they kind of like pick on us and bully us and you know I'm sure there's that pressure as well on teenage boys of course it is but again it's just like we never have these big conversations of like how to navigate that and I think like it must be so difficult to be a parent especially these days but I think a lot of parents want to be naive to the fact that kids are exposed to this stuff at a very early age I can't remember what the official status but around like pornography like most kids are seeing that when they're like

10 years old for the first time and then there's parents being like oh we don't want them to have you know PSH you can like classes on the sex ed until they're like 13 14 I'm like that's too late like that's too late yeah I think it's 30% of kids or 27% of seen porn by the age of 11 but that was two years ago so that will be more now and you're right like so much of the rhetoric is It's like, well, teach girls not to send the photos. And it's like, actually, we're not taking, while we're having the adolescence conversation, like, yes, we recognize, you know, really dangerous male influences and influences. But we're not really talking about the fact that you've got boys bullying girls into, and feeling from somewhere that they have the right to these images. And also, not only the right to their images that are, you know, real images to try to get from them, but deep fakes, right?

You know, there's been reports in the UK of teenage boys turning their female classmates into explicit deep fakes. And there's reports all over the world about that that's happening. And, you know, it's like, okay, even if you don't send it to them, then, if you're a teenage girl, you could still have your bodily autonomy taken away from you via these kind of like nudification apps and stuff. So there's so many conversations we had around, like, why teenage boys feel that that is something that they should have access to. And I think, you know, we talk about the influencers and influences that have such a big sway on that. And then also there's a conversation around, like, how do we navigate that with teenage girls and, like, equip them to deal with that. such a young age because, you know, 13, 14, like, I was still watching like Hannah Montana in a high school after school and then having people share my images. Like, you know, it's

something that you deal with and you feel like such an adult, but yet you literally are still a child. And I think a lot of the times when it comes to teenage girls, like we forget that, that you are still just a child. We don't really let them be children. Do we? We kind of want them growing up. It's really weird. We do let boys be boys. But then you don't really let girls be girls. There's no, there's no expression for that, is there? Our biggest live show is coming to Edinburgh's iconic Usher Hall on the 3rd of September, and we would love for you to join us for an unforgettable night of completely unfiltered chat, big laughs and meaningful conversation and connection.

Our favourite part of the live shows is always that you guys get to meet each other, and we're really, really proud of the community that we've fostered here. And this night isn't just about coming to see us. It's about meeting each other and forging new friendships. Whether you're in Scotland already or you fancy a trip to beautiful Edinburgh. This is our biggest live show and we would love to see you there. Check the link in the show notes or in our bios on Instagram to buy tickets and secure your place in the pre-show meetup, meaning that you can come alone and meet other like-minded should I delete that fans. Brought to you by Simprove, the UK's number one gut supplement. Can I ask about later in life when one of the

just was taken without your consent and shed. What happened there? So it was someone that I was kind of hooking up with. It was a friend of a friend. And I'd been in a long-term relationship for three years before then. So it was like the first kind of guy that I'd been with since. And so when you're like desperate for a bit of male validation, a bit of attention. So I really kind of fell head over heels for this guy straight away and really liked him.

And obviously, I trusted him because I thought I had no reason not to. And, you know, it had gone on for, you know, a couple months, a few months. and then he would kind of mention that he'd tell his friends that he was like hooking up with Jess Davis from Nuts magazine because I used to do some modelling and I was just going to brush it off like okay like you know but it was always a bit strange that you never wanted to introduce me to your friends and then one morning after I'd stayed over I just had this weird sense and you know they say like the spidey sense of a woman's gone but like I just knew something was up so when he went to the shower I checked his phone and like I'd never checked anyone's phone before then

haven't done it since, but I was like, there's something on there. So when I looked on his phone, the first thing was an image of me totally naked in his bed, sleeping. Oh, my God. And he'd taken it and sent it in a lad's group chat without my concern. Oh, my God. And I remember just looking at it and being so shocked because I'd never, even, you know, all throughout my modelling, I'd never posed full frontal. I'd never, to this day, sent a guy in the image of me full frontal. So, like, there is no other image out there that exists of me. than that, that he took while I was sleeping. And it was such a conscious decision because I remember it was a single bed. So like the angle of it, like, you would have to got on out

of bed, like to try and not wake me out when I was sleeping to take that picture to send it. And then even when I saw it, I just kind of, it's sad to look back and I just accepted it. It's like, this is what happens then. Like, this is how they view me. Like, this is what I'm worth. And I think I internalize that for so long. Again, you look back and you're like, no, yeah, there's no apology or recognition like that that happened and like I don't know who the people were in that WhatsApp group and unfortunately with image abuse like once something's shared you don't know how far it spreads like did it end up in a forum or does someone still have it on their phone like you you can't control that and even if you did like a you know take down

request on forums that asked for them to take it down someone can still reshare it or it can still be in someone's what's that group you know and again there's it's like okay so if you want to blame me for taking a picture of myself what about when someone else takes it oh well you shouldn't have gone home with him. Why did you trust him? You know, there's always this sense of victim blaming to try and void the perpetrator, which unfortunately is mostly men when it comes to sexual violence and abuse of any responsibility because it's easier for everyone. It's easier society. It's easier for men to just not confront it and have to put in the work to be like, oh, maybe this isn't okay. It's easier to be like, oh, you shouldn't have done that. Did you confront

him? No, I didn't. I didn't confront him because I remember just being so in shock, but also just kind of felt a bit humiliated like I'd accepted this disrespect and that wasn't the last time I didn't cut him off after that really you know and it's just that thing of like I think once someone tells you who you are so often and for me that had been

my body was the most important part of me you know and people had ownership of that that you just kind of accept that disrespect and it took a lot of work gosh you're at my 20s so many years of just having to like heal myself and like break away from that kind of like toxic

relationships I had with men of like seeking validation and them always been quite up front in terms of their actions of what they saw me as, which is just my body. And yet I was still desperately like trying to cling to some kind of like relationship or something. And in the end I just had to be like, yeah, I'm done and I need to like work on myself and like why I was seeking that out, which is now why I'm kind of like, you know, done the work and done the healing and like talk about it because I think unfortunately it's probably something like so many women deal with and have to try and navigate. but of course that does have unfortunately an effect on how I have relationships with men in that sense.

Yeah, I think it's really an interesting and important distinction that you're making in that and I think this is where people get deliberately like murky about their attitudes towards it because you had done modelling. So I think it's really easy for people to just convince themselves like, oh, she'll be fine with this and I'm not excusing him at all. But I think it's another way in which we don't, we just don't want to acknowledge in the same way that teachers at schools are going, well, we used to think it was a compliment. There's a way that we view women that we just think, oh, well, she's fine with that, she'll be fine with this. And if I was fine with that, then she'll be fine with that.

And we're very binary like that, aren't me? It's like, well, she's given us permission by putting herself out there anyway. But that's, that's a victim blaming, you know, she was on a night out. She posed for this photo. So she, she, she, she, she. And it's like, it's a really interesting. and depressing. Because like that was such a disgust,

that it's such a disgusting and violating thing that he did. Like that is not a nice person. That's a really horrible person. Yeah. And then you think of all the people who are in the group chat. Like, did they ever think of,

oh, you shouldn't have sent that? Or maybe I should let her know that he sent that because they didn't know I'd seen it. Or maybe I should go to the police about that because that is a crime, you know? And I think we see this so often in examples.

Like, for example, the Gavin Plum case who was convicted of planning to kidnap, rape and murder the presenter Holly Willoughby. He was doing all of that in forums and group chats for over two years and he was very open about what his plans were and not one person went to the police about that. It was only when an undercover police officer was in the chat

that then they found out what was going on. So it's like so many of these crimes and these online harms towards women unfolds online in front of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of men and it kind of feeds into that not all men conversation right because it's like yeah not all men might be the perpetrators of this but you might have seen it and done absolutely nothing to confront it or to make sure that the woman was okay so you're an accomplice in that so it's like not all men

but what are you doing to prove that then that you're not one of them and often unfortunately it's not a lot or nothing they just will avoid themselves of any responsibility which then puts all the responsibility back on the victim right or the women to have to keep themselves safe or to heal themselves and go through that when it should be like flipping it and putting on the men who are carrying this out

to actually make a difference and stop you know carrying out these hands. I mean it's good and bad I don't know, I'm saying this in a weird way but like your experiences all horrific but they, you know, I imagine they've massively contributed to what you do now and they will lend such power and passion

to what you do now and the work that you do and but I'm just so sorry that you had to experience all of that. It's just so horrible. Thank you. Yeah, it does just give me that kind of motivation to speak up for other victim survivors because a lot of women and victims don't feel like they can speak up or there's certain situations in their life where they can't go on camera or be a voice or share it, especially if you have children with that person and all of that. And I've met so many survivors along the way in my work

who haven't had that help or haven't had that feeling yet that they can speak up. So I always think like, unfortunately, obviously when you're a woman online, you share your opinion, you always get trolling or abuse. then if you share anything about this kind of stuff, it's always a pushback. But for me, I'm like, I'm not sharing it for myself anymore because I'm at peace with my situation, but it's more for the other women who are still having to put up with this,

and then the teenage girls who are still having to try and navigate this, you know? And unfortunately, a growing amount of teenage girls and women who have, like, given the state of the digital world and the ever-evolving digital world. Who is pushing back, do you feel? Do you feel that it's older women who think it's just a compliment,

or do you feel like it's men getting defensive from the off? Men, men, unfortunately, you know, most of the time it's men getting defensive because they hear the word men and they think you're talking about me. You know, this is me. And it's like, if you're not doing that, then it's not about you. But what are you doing to combat it? Probably not a lot other than trying to silence women online. It's the same thing with, you know, if you're a white woman, for example, and then you see someone who is a person of color talking about race. Well, if you're not being outwardly racist and carrying out the mic, it's like, I'm not offended because I'm not doing that, but it's my job as a white person to educate myself

and that and speak out when I see it. But if you're not the one carrying out the max, I'm not talking about you, you know? And that's the thing with men, like, they get so defensive. And it's like, if you're not the one who's perpetrating this, why are you so hell-bent on silencing the women who is sharing their lived experiences or wanting a debate and the argument is that I don't have to debate my lived experiences for you. Like, that's what I went through. I'm not trying to prove it to you.

It's fact, you know, and I think so often it is seen as a debate. And I think that's a reflection of, like, so much of this kind of world that we live in now, everything's a debate. And it's like, but it's not. That's lived experiences of people. And we don't have to keep debating them to get the other side. It's like, I'm sharing it. And you either want to listen and educate yourself or don't.

But, you know, trying to shut women down, which happens so often in these spaces is just a way of, again, signing with the perpetrators and letting them get away with this kind of stuff. And the defensiveness is like, it just ends up, it's so loud. It ends up dominating. and then ultimately derailing the conversation. It's kind of telling on themselves as well. The really important conversation that shouldn't be about like, but it's not me.

It's not me. And why are you talking to me? But it is then. Because it's like it's beyond this now. It's beyond the crime. It's like we have a huge cultural issue. And what you're doing, what Laura's doing, what we're trying to do. You know, so many of these conversations, it's like it is imperative that we acknowledge

this and challenge it. Because otherwise, you know, we talk often about like how fragile other woman's reputation is. And a photo, like, what's happened to you, it can be life-ruining, life-ending. Like, reputation is so unfortunately important. And these images are such, like, they're weaponised and they're horrendous.

And to fight this, to fight any, sorry, to challenge, like if you say we've got an issue with this, if we say, oh, this is not okay, and you're fighting that, You are not okay. Like you don't have to have taken the image. You don't have to be part of it. But by blocking the conversation, by derailing it in any way, you are now a problem.

I wish people would have these men, and I hate even saying it, but I wish they'd have a bit of foresight to see how, well, embarrassing what they're doing is for a start, but also how detrimental it is to such a big issue. it feels so frustrating that it's debated it does and it feels so frustrating like I feel like every time I talk about this I have to make a big point of oh we know it's not all men it's like yeah we do know that so like why do we have to keep pointing it out all the time because it just kind of if we can't say the quiet part out loud that okay it's not all men but it's all the perpetrators are men you know every experience I've had that has been negative has been a man but then I'm not allowed to say that

out loud because it might offend someone you know it's like if we keep shutting it down because they're not allowed to say the word men without upsetting people, then we're never going to get anywhere. Like, we have to, like, name what the problem is if we're going to combat this. And, yeah, it isn't all men because there's so many amazing men out there who are allies in this space, who are doing the work, whether that's publicly and in organizations beyond equality, or if it's just our friends and our boyfriends and our husbands who are, you know, doing the work and speaking up for us.

So they know that this isn't talking about them. You know, there are men out there who don't get offended about this because they know it's not about them. But unfortunately, like, they're the question. like they're the quiet ones because they're not in the comments section, you know, trying to shut women up. So they're not the ones that we see platform not often. It's so true that they're the quiet ones, the ones that aren't up for the confrontation

or the debate or like dying for the confrontation. Because they don't need it. Yeah. They're already on our side, I guess. Can I ask you what it was like modeling for those magazines like nuts? Like what was that environment like? I'm imagining that it was a toxic environment, but I don't know if that's right to say. No, like sometimes it wasn't, and sometimes there's parts of it that you just felt it was.

I mean, I was very young when I started. I was 18 and my step into that world was a way at the time. I felt like, okay, like I wanted to reclaim my body in the sense of because I felt like, well, everyone's already seen me naked. Everyone already has this opinion of me. So why not make a bit of money from it and reclaim that because people can't shame me for something I've chosen to do? And it was also that era of like the my body, my choice, that Emily Ratkowski kind of blurred lines. era and I think probably a lot of step, first step for women into feminism, there's liberal feminism, right? I'm feeling like it's your choice. And then I guess the older you get,

you look back and you're like, yeah, maybe so much of that wasn't my choice, you know, to begin with. And unfortunately, my first kind of experience of going topless was against my consent because an image that I had asked to be photoshopped out because I made very clear my boundaries, I didn't shoot topless, wasn't. And it was sold to a magazine with my nipples on show without my consent. And then when I confronted my agent at the time, and I was crying, I was really upset. And they're like, well, it's been printed now. Not much we can do. And they're a great client. So we don't know how to set them. And that was my entry level into that to start with. So it was started off without any consent. And then my boundaries kind of totally

collapsed around it. So in that sense, obviously, like that is not great. And it was, you know, but then in terms of being on location, like on set of a photo shoot, like with the magazines, it was very much like book for your agent and it was contractual. And, you know, it felt professional. you had your hair and makeup done and all the styling and to be 18, 19 in these spaces. Like, it was exciting and I enjoyed it. But there was always that sense of when it came to, okay, time to take your bra off. I was like, that was just part of the job that came with everything else. But I was like never fully like loved it.

And for some women they did. And I think that's really important because so often we do shut down any kind of conversation around the fact that women, some women do find empowerment through nakedness or do find empowerment through being a section. And I think, you know, we kind of say around this whole conversation around like misogyny and being objectified that that isn't like a possibility. And I think it is, you know, there is space for that. But yeah, so, you know, there's things like when you'd be interviewed for the magazines

and they'd ask you stuff like, what do you wear to bed? And I'd be like, fluffy pajamas. I'm like, no, you can't say that. And I'm like, that's what I wear though. And then you see the paper printed and it'd be a totally different quote. And like all the girls will say this, like everything that was in there was not true, you know, because it was always heightened and changed. And I remember the first time that happened to me, I, like, didn't understand.

I'm like, how can you possibly print something that I've not said? Which obviously happens all the time in papers and newspapers. But yeah, so it was, I mean, I guess it was of its time. Like, it was very kind of like laddie. But I think there's also space for a conversation around when they all went away. You know, that was probably teenage boys and young men's first step into that world, which was kind of PG in the sense of it was just top. whereas now your first step into that world is probably pornography and it's probably

like explicit stuff that you see online but yeah it feels like such a lifetime ago that that was you know my experience my life which it was really but I guess it's got me got me here talking about this do you look back and think right oh my god I was so young yeah because 18 is like at the time you know like you say it was really odd its time and it was super duper normalized and it's like yeah the 18 18 fine like she's an adult and it's like oh just oh my gosh it's yeah like fresh out like my fashire union is straight up house you know fresh out of school and it's like i've got a 19 year old little brother and like i'm like he is a child you know like he is a child you know like

you can't even make a pot noodle by itself so i'm like to think of being 18 and like having to go to london on my own and meet agents of my own and do deshoots on my own and have some kind of onus around like what happened you know because there was moments where i'd be asked to do certain poses that i wasn't comfortable with and i would speak up and say and most the time they find be like you know photographers would be like okay let's not do it but i have been on shoots where girls had not felt that they could say that and then they'd come off there and be really crying and upset and like did you do this and i said well no i said no they're like i didn't i don't want to do and you know because there was that sense of this was just what was expected of you but

it's so young i remember my zoo magazine i did like they did a countdown to my like first ever topless shoot and it was like this 18 year old is thinking of getting her clothes off and i still have some magazines and when i look back now i'm like that's actually grim, you know, but at the time, like, you feel so grown up and you feel like, yeah. And I think what really fed into that was the fact that I've been sexualized from such a young age. Like, I grew breasts when I was nine, 10 years old. So from then on, people are always commented on my body since I was in primary school. So by the time I was 18, this felt like old news to me, you know what I mean? Like, of course you're going to comment on my body. Of course you're

going to sexualize me. But actually, when you look back, I'm like, gosh, you were like a teenager. Do you think it defined doing this work at a young age, do you think it defined your view of yourself and your kind of yourself worth being linked to your body? Definitely. I think it's all kind of linked in, I think, doing that kind of work, but also, you know, the experiences in my private life, like with my images being shared about my consent,

and the boy, or man, taking a photo of me about my consent and sharing it when I was sleeping, I think all of that really feeds into how you're in. internalize that and like that self-worth and self-esteem and I think that's why for so long like I kind of accepted men's disrespect and them view me as a body because I kind of just saw that too like it was seen as like the most interesting part of me and like I'd be really quiet around men like when I was in my early 20s or teens and my friends would be like if they saw me like God I wish you could just be like what you're like with us because I know

they'd like you then but you know it's always a sense of I might say something and then they won't like me so I'll just be here and I'll just be a shell like I'll just be a body, that's what they want for me. And that's why, you know, for a while, I just had to take like so many years of just like not hooking up with anyone, not being with anyone, not dating, because it was like I really had to work through that and unpack what had been me sexualizing myself really and viewing myself through that lens from literally being a child to then in your 20s. And I think it became quite toxic in that search of like male validation that I had to look back at like why that had happened. And I think, you know, the premise of,

why that's happened was because what I'd been a victim of so many times. Do you, I don't know if you're in a relationship. No. Or not. No. Okay. So how do you feel about dating now? Gosh, for me, like it's really difficult. You know, I haven't really had a boyfriend in many years and I've dated here and there, but to put myself out there, not only from what I've experienced first hand, but also like the work I've done in this space and I've spent many years in the Manistphere forums have seen millions of men sharing women's images

like their consent or turning them into explicit deep vakes or sharing rape fantasies about them it's like to see that and then put myself out there and be like I'm just going to trust a total stranger now that I meet online

like seems otherworldly to me like I could never go on a dating app now because that is always in the back of your mind and I think a lot of women who work in this space of violence against women and girls and who are campaigners have told me they feel the same

you know you do feel like you've almost pulled the curtain back too much and you know too much. And of course, there are men out there who don't do this. Like, how do you navigate that and how do you find them? You know, the thought now of me, me and someone on a dating app, go into them meet a stranger in like a pub. I'd be like, oh my God, like stranger danger. Like, I'm not going to put myself in that situation.

But then how do you meet someone in the modern world when you don't do that? So it is difficult to navigate and also difficult to trust someone else as well. When you've experienced so much pain at the hands of men, it's like, okay, but I'm not. now I'm going to give someone else another go, you know, and obviously that isn't fair on everyone, you know, all men, because we know they're not all like that, but it is difficult to think you're going to put yourself out there again now. And unfortunately, I think that's something that a lot of women I know any way who's experienced similar work in the space feel. I think that's quite an interesting thing. You know, we talk about like feminism being man

hating and whatever. And it's like, actually by this point, fair enough, like for women like you who've been so hurt, so many times by so many different men at so many different stages, it's like, if you want to hate them now, like, fair fucks. Yeah. And it's really frustrating that this happens where it's just like, well, she just hates men. So we're not going to listen to her. It's like, or we could look at why she hates them and like why she's been her and

how she's been hurt and whatever. And that because it, yeah, it feels like a sort of sad way. it would sound like inevitability that this is where we end up yeah and i think that i get that all the time you just hate men and someone commented like about my book like this is just me a book of man hate and i'm like we'll read it and then you can you know read about what's happening in these forums and then see why so many women are angry it's like i don't hate all men of course i don't but like i hate the patriarchy i hate the men who are doing this you know and i'm angry at men who don't speak out about it and one has shut down the conversation and feel like

it isn't their position to do anything about this because we can't stop this as women on their own or else we would have stopped it by now. We would have solved this by now. You know, and it's like so many small things that we learn from teenage, well, from young girls through our teenage years, then to us now of like how we navigate our life. Like the fact that as women and girls,

our lives are navigated around like the time of day. Like how we, what mode of transport are we going to get? Like what time do we need to be home? If we're out of our child on our own, you know, then on our phones, can we walk with headphones? So all this small stuff that's just been so normalized that we just have to put up with, you're changing our entire lifestyle when it's like actually we need to be having these conversations

and again, naming it for what it is, which is male violence, to just want to stop that. And I think it shouldn't take men having their own daughters or their own wives and girlfriends to actually want to do something and view other women as like human beings who, you know, deserve respect and deserve to be able to walk about their lives online and offline without worrying about being harmed. So it is something that we have to do together. And I think, men should want to do that to be a good person, not just because, you know, they might get a part in the back for it. Can we just go through a few of your chapters of your book, just the title so we can see like what's what we've got, what we've got in here. So people know what it's

about. So we've got sexual harassment leaked, cyber flashing catfish, deep fake image abuse, the gaming and misogyny, masculinity and crisis, influences and the solution. Yes. Very exciting. It is very exciting. Yeah. And, you know, each. chapters, but kind of like it's an essay, like it's brought in a different area of online misogyny. And unfortunately, most of the areas are something I've experienced. So there's a lot of personal experience in there. And I also interview survivors and experts and campaigners in this space. And then each chapter kind of finishes with some tips of like what we can actually do, whether that's to help better protect ourselves online, which of course we all shouldn't

do as women. Like that shouldn't be the onus on us. But whilst we're waiting for legislation to catch up and society at choose to catch up, there are like small things we can do. And then things like if you have fallen victim to image abuse, like where you can go for help and how you can, you know, serve DMCA takedowns to try and get them removed. So, yeah, that's why I call it a toolkit because it's like there's also handy tips of actually what people can do to try and navigate the online world, which can be pretty scary. Do you, how do you feel now about the images of you that are out there

and the, like, I suppose digital body print? Because it's not footprint, I suppose. But like, have you made peace with the version of you that exists on the internet? Because I imagine it's such an exploitative feeling that it's been taken from you and you can't. I don't know, it must have felt for a long time like it was out of your control. Have you made peace with that? Do you feel more in control of your life now, knowing that those photos are still out there? I think I had to take control of, like, who I am and my day-to-day and who I view myself as.

because them images, unfortunately, have decimated my online footprint. Like, I cannot get everyone in taking down. They've been shared to advertise at escort services, sex work, rape role plays. Like, they used to catfish people. They used to extort money out of men. They're trading in forums. Like, there is so many ways that my images have been taken and shared and used without my consent. I'm never going to get a hold of that again.

And it is frustrating. And for me, personally, like, I just don't look anymore because when I would Google and who I'd see was not reflective of who I knew I was. and I think that speaks for so many victims of image-based abuse, whether you're like an only fan's creator, for example, or whether you are someone who's just shared intimate images with your partner without consent, and they've been uploaded to a forum.

Like, I wanted to write this book because I knew there was a different narrative of how we view women who are sexual or how we view women who have taken these images because it's always seen as you're a specific type of woman or it is your fault. And from my own experience, but also from the experience of so many other women

and my friends who this had happened to, I was like, I know that isn't your narrative. I know that isn't the defining point of who you are and your character. So I wanted to like switch the tables really and be like, look, this is what's happening in these spaces and we can't keep blaming women. So it is something that I've had to make peace with about my digital footprint. And like thankfully now, like the more I talk about this, like there are articles that pop up about like the work I'm doing to campaign around this.

And I hope that one day, like that's how I'll be remembered and not for like the images that are out there when I was a teenager when I just didn't understand the internet. but I think it's sad that that is the advice that I have to sometimes give to women like I just don't look anymore and if that's me saying it as someone who is kind of an expert in the space in a campaign and I've sat with ministers and government

and if that's what I've had to do to deal with it, then we've failed women in that sense. Completely agree. Thank you so much. Thank you. We're going to leave the link to your book No One Wants to See Your Dick in the show notes so people can go and buy it for themselves.

Thank you very much. Thanks so much. Should I delete that as part of the ACAS creator network.