Should I Delete That? - "If I go home, I'll be arrested" with Iranian feminist Samaneh Savadi

Episode Date: January 30, 2023

This week, Alex and Em talk to Iranian feminist activist Samaneh Savadi. The Islamic Republic of Iran has been experiencing turmoil as a result of the government’s misogynistic regime and the murders of many protestors and dissenters.After noticing their story views drop significantly whenever they spoke out about this issue, the girls wanted to bring a deeper awareness of it to themselves and to others by talking to Samaneh about her understanding and experience. Samaneh herself cannot go home to Iran out of fear of being arrested, or worse, for speaking out and campaigning for women’s rights. She suggests that one of the best ways to help women in Iran is by continuing to speak out, so hopefully this episode gives you the impetus to do so.Follow Samaneh on Instagram @samaneh_savadiFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So many times people say I'm not political. So in these kind of a situation, it's just like, you may not to be political, what political is you? Politics comes for you. She was just ordinary woman walking in a street and got arrested and got killed. Hello. Sorry, so loud. Hello.

Hello. Hello. No, you know what? I just really want to do this quickly. Hi, I'm M Clarkson. And I'm Alex Ly. And welcome back to the Should I Delete that podcast. Oh my gosh, that's how we should open?

I think we should do something like that. Why don't we do that? I don't know. Why do we always have this moment of awkwardness where we're like, hello, hi. Where are you? Yeah, exactly. Let's try it again, practice. Hi, I'm M Clarkson.

And I'm Alex Light. Welcome back to the Should I Delete that podcast. So, Al, kick us off. Oh, my God. I know, I don't know what's happening, just go with it. Tell me something good. I love that this has just occurred to us like, what, 60, 100 episodes later? Anyway, never mind.

Something great, please, something good for your week. Good from my week is I had my wardrobe organized. Yes, you did. Oh my God, the joy that that has brought me, honestly, it was so, do you know what, it wasn't that bad before, but it was just like it was not optimal, you know, there was a lot of things that could have been better. That's such a good description of my life. It's not bad.

It's just not. optimal. Yeah, I feel like we both live on that level of life. So this woman called Kat, oh my God, she's so nice. She's from, if anyone wants to check her out at the underscore, organized, underscore home underscore, and I won't like tell her story, but basically like she was in a different job and then something happened in her personal life. And then she was like, I just want to do what I really love, which is organizing.

And this isn't, like, it's not an ad I paid for it. But I just wanted to shout her out because she was so lovely. and she spent a day in there, God help her, going through all my stuff, even my knickers, like absolutely everything, and it's all got like... It's a good job for a pervert, isn't it? Such a good job for a pervert, yeah. But I've got like hangar dividers. So it's like leather trousers, leggings, wide leg trousers, jeans.

Oh, she needs to come to my house. Unbelievable. I feel like now's a very bad time because this like baby slash bomb is about to land. Give it a bit. Yeah, I'll do it for Christmas or something. That sounds nice. It's so good. Everything's in drawers.

Everything, you can see everything. No, no, actually, I'm getting really jealous. I don't want to hear it. Like, I'm really happy for you, but, you know, sometimes, you know, like, oh, you're really happy for your mate in Barbados, but you don't need to see the pictures. Okay, sorry. That's how I feel about it. Like, I'm so happy for your nice, like, optimal life. But, like, organisation brings me more joy than almost anything else in life, which is very sad.

I put a, yeah, I put a jar in the freezer yesterday, labeled M's cholesterol. So I feel like I'm getting on the organisational hype. That did look very. A different job. I'm proud of you for that. Yeah, recycled an almond butter jar. So that's adulthood. I know we're trying to make these, like, not long, but I just have to say,

I bought a hazelnut and cashew nut butter. Yeah. And it's like the best thing I've ever eaten in my entire life. Oh, okay. I don't like hazelnuts. Okay. I'd never like them. Don't like Nutella for that reason.

It tastes like a non-chocolity Nutella. Oh. The chocolate is only saving grace from Nutella. So no. Bad. Oh, God. Don't like hazelnut. I did not know this.

Yeah, I just really think it's stupid. This is disappointing. Do you like pistachios? Yeah, fine. They're fine. I mean, it's just a pistachio. All right, let's move on then. My good, I went to Brighton this weekend, last weekend,

to celebrate 10 years with Alex, 10 years. 10 years with Alex, which is absolutely bonkers. It was so nice. I mean, I'm so pregnant. I was so slow. I'm still sick. So sick, yeah. But despite that, actually,

you're, interestingly, I was so anxious being away from home, I think, because I'm quite close to Babydale's, and I didn't sleep for like two days, which is fine. But despite that I had a really nice time. I had the best time by the sea, had the best time with him, best time with Boer, just the best relaxed ever. That's so nice. And I just really liked it.

And Brighton's just so fun. Yeah, it's great, isn't it? It's not in the cards for me, it's not in the cards for my life, but imagine just living in Brighton. So many people move to Brighton from London, don't they just live by the sea and hove brighton and hove yeah it's so stunning i know it does look it does look really nice that was lovely my bad came from that weekend though so on sunday morning i woke up

i told you i didn't sleep for two days i was just i was really sick it's just you know life and um or like nine months of pregnancy anyway i just wasn't feeling stunning and i know i wasn't looking stunning like it was a bad on sunday morning i woke up i was like oh and alex went down to don't even know we went to the car to get a coffee or sit ber for a week or something and he came back up and I'd got ready for the day in that time and he walked into the room and gave me the worst compliment in human history. It was like being wacked over the head with like a dead salmon. He just looked to me and he went, that looks way better. And I went, what does? And he went everything. And I was like, what do you mean everything? And he said, like your face and your hair

and stuff. Everything about you just looked so much better than it did this morning. Alex. I was like, he's not wrong, but also everything, everything's better. Everything, what about your sparkling personality? Did that look better? My beautiful body. Yeah. No, no, everything's better. I was like, well, that is good because when I looked in the mirror, I was like, everything needs to be better.

I love the lack of tact. It's quite brilliant. I think he was tired too. Yeah. Everything's better. I was like, oh, okay. That's nice. Maybe he was just like, I wish I, I, I don't know, I'm trying.

It was oddly comforting though. Trying to reframe. Yeah, but it is oddly comforting because it's just like, well, at least I know everything's better. Do you know what I mean? It's just like, oh, you makeup looks nice. I'm like, what about my hair? At least I know. I've just leveled up.

Yeah, yeah, okay. So I just took the positives from it. Okay. I'm struggling with that, but totally get it. Anything bad from your own week? I feel like I am, I am a completely different person with them without makeup. like a completely different person. I feel like you are as well.

I look so different. But you carry yourself very differently. Your shoulders go quite low when you don't wear makeup. Do they? It's like you're quite tired. Probably. Just like tracking them behind you. But like putting on makeup has an effect on like my mood and attitude.

Anyway, something bad from my week. Do you know what? I'm like, I don't know. Your bad's really funny now and now I'm regretting my bad. Oh no. I'll put us back up with my awkward because my awkward makes my bad look sad. Go on then. No, no, no, no, just give us your bad, and then I'll share everyone up with the awkward.

Sorry, I see, I see, I see. So Genev, my sister Jen, found these WhatsApps of me, that me and her had shared. That's such a weird way of saying it, had shared, back in 2017, so like six years ago, they are so so bad. Like, what I was writing, you would never recognise that it's me. and like mega trigger warning I don't even know if I should but I just feel like I need to talk about it because I can't believe that this is me

although I can't obviously anyway I've been really bad for ages Jen I have to do something it's my own fault do you mind if we don't do food tonight we're meeting up and Jen was like yeah don't worry your weekend is always a flop

Are you sure you're okay and I'm like yeah yeah fine I just can't eat tonight I'm really sorry I had a bit I had a cheat meal at the weekend it wasn't even good you know when you're just like

I shouldn't be doing this but I really couldn't stop and then once you stop it snowballs and now I'm panicked anyway how's your diet? Oh my God how fucking grim is that? That's so sad

and like I say all the time I don't judge anyone who's on a diet because I've been there and I do I believe that but that made it feel like even more true when I saw that like oh my god I was like so immersed in it so immersed in it yeah so that was bad anyway sorry I've really brought us up no I can really pull us back up if you want that is really sad

yeah but I actually think it's really good for people to hear that because when you talk about the stuff that stuff I think people I think people hear other people speak about these things they think oh well you you don't get it you don't get it like I get it yeah and you can feel like so I think it is yeah very leveling people to hear like you've been there yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure um okay my awkward is our awkward it's a bad awkward i was gonna call you on monday about it it's not good oh my god i'm i know i was excited and i've just told me it's a shared awkward yeah it's no i'm scared it's incredibly it's it's so awkward and i think me you and daisy are gonna be deeply ashamed of ourselves for this oh my go go go hurry up bringing you into it okay so my alix

have been doing some guest outreach right and he yeah was in communication with somebody really cool no very impressive just very respectable person person. And he's been talking to their management. Yeah. And the management left him a voicemail on Sunday night with some feedback about the podcast. Oh my God, why are you telling me this? You know I don't take feedback well. The feedback was that she felt that whilst we did seem to be having fun, it wasn't quite up. We perhaps weren't the most respectable situation in that she listened to the episode where Dave had walked in

on you shitting in the shower. Oh. And she felt that on balance maybe we wouldn't be able to host the most sensible conversation with her. But thanks very much for thinking of her and good luck

with our future in death. Oh my God. I said, I was like, did you tell her that she didn't actually shit in the shower? It was just a way. He was like, I don't think that's the case that you think it is. The waffles' stomping.

No. Oh my God. Okay, guys, M's just told me who it was and you know what, fair enough. Yeah. Like, I get it. She's so out of Olly. She's so out of Olly. And the thing she wants to talk to us about, so, so out of the waffles stomping zones.

Like, I get it. I wasn't even mad. I said to Alex, I mean, like, hormonally, I was like, oh my God, she just thinks my career is a joke. And then I was like, but to be fair, we did make an episode about you shitting in the showers. Can I just clarify that? I did not shit in the shower. Did they say on the voicemail, I heard the... Yeah, yeah.

She said that she'd listened to a few episodes. And the bit that was cited was the shower and the eye contact in the shower. Oh, my God. I was angry for a minute. I was sad for a minute. I'm really amused. It does set us up though. It does. It kind of does. You think we should like tone it back a bit? No. No, no, no, because I like the calibre of guests that we have.

You know what? She doesn't want to cut. Fair enough. She's got her. You know what I mean? She can go on plenty of fish or the rest is politics. And that's fine and I wish I will. Okay. Yeah. Good luck for my line. Well, there you go. And if you're good from your own week before we go, did you hit anyone with your car this week? That is absolutely my old. I haven't hit any one this week. Fuck, you should probably listen to that too. I'm going to start toning it down. and I'm going to be like, oh, I walked in and there was a piece of toilet roll on my shoe.

It was this criminal, this woman, shit in the shower, hit a man with her car. So good. Great. My awkward was, until that, that has firmly taken the number one spot. But my awkward was that we interviewed someone last night and I used a word. I did, I did mean to use it ironically, but I kind of, it just didn't work. but I tried to make deep into a verb because I thought that's what the kids did

and I don't think they do on reflection I've actually in her she was trying to be Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Yeah what's it Tick talk Oh man I don't know I just feel too old Tick literate I just made that up

I've never heard that before but I like it a lot Yes thank you you were trying to be tick literate I was hard to say quickly Tick literate yeah Tick literate You just keep saying tit, though. Titlet. Titlet.

Titlet. And that just sounds like porn. Now all I think, I'm just like, imagining this woman listening to this. I was like, I'm just so glad I didn't do it. Thank God, how embarrassing. So there we go. It was awkward, it was embarrassing, but you know, you've just got to live through these things. I am, yeah, very much not a Gen Z.

So anyway, you're a shower shitter. Stop it. That's Alex Schittes and shower, pass it on. Do you know, with this in my, I'm very happy that we deleted this morning's video. That's very true. You've only one crook. Okay, we have a great guest today.

And this is an episode that we've wanted to do for a really long time, and we're really proud to be bringing it to you today. So we are speaking to Samane Savadi, who is an Iranian activist, and she was kind enough to come on and speak to us about both the situation in Iran at the moment with the protests and everything that's happening, but also her experience of life.

there and growing up there she now lives in the UK but her family is still based there and it was just really super super interesting to talk to her and quite a hopeful episode I think absolutely I think like we read a lot about what's going on all over the world and it was really valuable to hear not just from her as an activist but from her as a human and although I actually at times felt like some of the questions I was asking might have been a bit stupid I really I don't know a lot about the situation and in order to help causes across the world and to better understand it, we have to ask questions and we have to be willing to listen and learn.

So I really hope that we're all able to take something from today's episode. Hi, Samina. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It is really great to see you and also to have the opportunity to talk about you well. Thank you. Yeah, definitely. So we started speaking last year. You were sharing infographics about Iran and I was sharing some on my stories. So we were like sort of chatting in DMs. And then we thought we wanted to do an episode that really goes in depth about what's happening in Iran. And you seemed the, yeah, the perfect person to come on and talk to us about it. Could you just tell us, could you tell us like a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Yeah, I am Iranian feminist activist. I left Iran eight years ago. I came here to do my master at Sussex University, and I ended up making family here and staying here. But the last time I was in Iran was five years ago. And then after that, as I started to be more outspoken, I couldn't go back home because feminism is a kind of a criminal act back there. we can talk, you know, in depth more about it later.

And then I run a platform, online platform for fighting against sexual harassment at workplace. We are running a courses and training there. And on my Instagram and social media, I try to be outspoken possible about women's rights. Normally around, like my things that I'm more interested in is motherhood, reproductive rights and those topics. but yeah so that's that's me so I can't believe that you can't go home because you would be arrested what would happen if you were arrested and convicted yeah I mean the problem with Iran in general is we don't know what's going to happen because it's not like they're going to it's not something legal or illegal normally they are not even

sticking to the law of themselves you know so So everything is based on what they, you know, that person, the judge wants to make a decision at that moment or how is the, how much is the suppression at that moment that they want to make a decision. So it was three years ago when I lost my father, I was very hopeful that I can go back. But then when I talk to people, people are just like, if you come, you're going to get arrested. And of course, your father is ill. And in this situation, the last thing they want is the trouble about you. So stay there. And then the problem was exactly that.

It was like, I would be like, so what would be my, so, okay, they're going to arrest me and say what? And it was just like, God knows. Like what happened for Nazanin Zagari? It's just like, they may say you're a spy. They may say you are like just because you went and had an interview with in BBC, you're a spy and you're doing this and that. So God knows what. So there are people that have been charged with five years in prison just because they were running a train. of like equality and literally their crime is promoting gender equality like they write that as

a crime promoting gender equality because they believe gender equality is not something that we should have women should be in their own place and men should be in their own place so yeah that is the that is the situation of course in the there is no article about that but they invade, you know, something just to put you in prison. God, I'm so sorry about that. That's so awful that you can't go home and that you weren't able to go home to your dad. I'm so sorry, that's awful. Well, I think at least for me, it was like, okay, what was the price that I paid?

I met as spoken and the price was not saying goodbye to my father. So now I have to be as out as spoken as possible to make it like worse, to be like, okay, the price that I paid is too high. so now I should do everything to amplify the voice of those who are inside Iran and try to make changes as much as I can. I guess we're seeing now with Iran since Masa Amini was killed, we've seen so many protests and obviously Iran has been in the news so much more and the fight for equality and their like shocking situation has become much more.

for a lot of people but this has been going on for a really long time and like you say you couldn't go home three years ago I wonder if you could give some context to what your life was like growing up as a woman in Iran and obviously like coming here to do your masters you know feminism is a massive part of who you are and gender equality like how was that growing up in a system and in a country that just didn't allow it the question took me back to the like how far this fight has been in 1979 revolution when happened, a couple of weeks after that, the first 8th of March, after revolution, it was, you know, they started to talking about compulsory hijab.

And a woman came to street and said, no, we are not going to accept that. We did not do a revolution for this. We wanted, you know, we didn't want corruption. We wanted a free country. And, yeah, no compulsory hijab. And at that time, people, some of the revolutionary, people came and said, oh no, but shush now, now's not to talk about women's right. Let's talk about a bigger picture. We want this government to go. We want this and that. And then because of

that, I think these times people are very aware of that. And I'm just like, okay, every single step we are going to talk about women's right and queer community right. It's not about, oh, we want Islamic Republic to go. It's just like, oh no, we don't just want them to go. We want, you know, we have you know we want equality we want equality of different people from different background different ethnics different genders everyone so i mean the fight is that far like from 1979 first 8th of march after revolution some women were just like no we don't accept that and the life of a woman inside iran is a everyday resistance like when you wake up in a morning you want to go out you have to have a compulsory head

job. I mean, if I want to say it like a, like have my life as an example, like in when you were born as a woman, in Iran, there is not such a thing like writing a will. So the law says how much the property of family, how it should get divided after the death of like your parents. And your brother's share is always double of a daughter's share. So it starts from there. Like, okay, so as a man, you have a double share of your family's property. And then when you start to go to school, you have to wear a compulsory hijab. So as a five years old girl, like going to school, you should cover your hair. And normally when we say we talk about compulsory hijab, the symbol of it is a headscarf.

But it's not only headscarf. Like this is, even if I have a headscarf now with my shirt and trouser is unacceptable. It should be long. shirt and yeah so it's about you should cover all your body yes exactly and then if you get if as a girl you want to get married you should have a permission from your father like if your father doesn't allow you you can't get married and if you're just like having a father that is you think okay he's not good enough to make a decision for me you can go to the court it's still like someone should should give permission to you to get married with the specific person and

Then when you get married, it gets worse and worse because you basically give every right of yours to your husband. They can make you stop living the country. For leaving the country, you may need their permission. You can't get divorced. You don't have any right about your children. Like the holiness of mom is there. They give all these talks about, oh, moms are holy and moms are great and amazing.

But as a mom, if your child wants to leave the country, you can't make a decision for that and every right basically is on father. So so many of the aspects of is legal but it's naive the thing that law didn't have impact on a culture. So culturally

of course the families are just like trying to you know to suppress their child at home basically instead of letting them be suppressed in the society so for example I got married when I was

19 when I was back home Only because it was the only way Like to dye my hair or to leave away from my family Have a bit of a freedom Really? Yes And then of course I got divorced in two years Because I got married for a wrong reason It's not going to work

But it is very normal in Iran Like so many of women go through that Just because they don't want to live with their families So I just like so let's Let's get married Maybe that gets better And then let's get divorced I mean, yeah.

And beside all this, the idea of equality doesn't exist. That is a big thing. Like through years and years there, Islamic Republic made an image of a good woman. That a good woman should be modest, good woman should be married, good woman should have a child and shouldn't be working and should spend their life for their family and all those things that as a young woman, as a teenager, it's all you think about. You're just like, I want the society to accept me. Of course, you can be a rebel, like, as I was, but you're going to have a very tough life.

Like, I was such a rebel. My sister wasn't, my sister, which is younger than me. I always say, she saw how tough was my life. She was like, I don't want that. I'm going to obey whatever they say. I don't want to get in trouble all the time. So, yeah, I guess it is like literally, it is everyday resistant. You wake up and then you start to fight the system, fight with your family.

And then, yeah, that's a life of a woman. But with saying all of this, it's like, yes, of course there are lots of legal and cultural issues. But the woman don't give up. They try every single way possible to find their ways through what they want. So you moved from Moran and you came to Brighton. At what point before that did you realise that this isn't the life that I want and I'm developing beliefs that aren't in line with, the culture that I live in

well I think I knew that when I was when I was living in Iran I knew I don't want yeah yeah I knew that like I can say I wasn't labeling myself as a feminist but I very much was was living like a film's and I wanted to say like even my grandma did that even my mom did that like so many of women they have no they probably some of them have never even heard of word feminism

but they are feminist they literally try all they can to to gain some power like even if can't do it in a society they try their best to somehow gain the power in a family and then play with that so I think yeah even back home I was living the life of a feminist but I think deep down somewhere I was like women are different from men like it's a about that. It was just like, okay, it's not, and I think that is to protect, at least for me, was like, I want to protect myself. I don't want to think like all this rights that I didn't have, just Slavic Republic took it from me. I was like, okay, maybe some degree of that is

like women just are different from men, you know, and they, they need to have a different set of rights and responsibilities. And then, I think Brighton itself, like as a town changed me a lot, because it was just like giving me the dream what I was dreaming that oh that would be great if we could live like that right and was like here we go I can offer you what you are dreaming of and yeah then here when I met my husband the idea of relationship and equality in a relationship was very different very different like I remember the first time that I took my phone to ring at that time my boyfriend to say like can I go blah somewhere or can I like instead of saying I am going this that the sentence was coming out of my mouth as a way of a permission then I was like oh no oh no here no

and then I was like I don't need to do that wow how great how great is that and I think at that point was when I started to practicing that with my father. So when I moved in with my husband, I was, I let him know. I just rank him and I was like, I'm letting you know that I am moving in with my boyfriend. I bet it was like a heart for him to swallow, but he did. But it wasn't something, it's not something that happens in Iran. It's like it's like a dream to be able to do such a thing. So I guess, yeah, being aware of discrimination is something, but how much you are, I think we naturally are free souls and we want to be free. So we fight against discrimination just naturally to some degrees. But after coming here, I guess, and knowing more and seeing

different point of views, it was for me to like be more aware of. the discrimination, not to like naturally fighting it. I guess there's just no education if feminism's never been part of the conversation, then it's, you know, hard to learn

from any, I mean, I guess it's not taught in schools or you know, that sort of thing. What is what was the schooling situation like for you for in Iran? Was it, like it's, I don't know anything about girls' rights to school and university? Yes, so, But boys' schools and girls of schools are always separate.

There is not such a thing like we go to school together at all. But of course, I'm talking, you know, as a woman living in Tehran. I was from a, you know, middle-class family having access to the education, to everything. So, yeah, of course, in a more marginalized places, we can say if the family has to cut some of the, you know, resources, they will cut it from the daughter of a family than a boy. So, yes, the number of the girls that don't go to school are much more than boys. And at the same time, unfortunately, the child, we have a high number in a child marriage. Really?

And it's not legally something that's against law as well. So that makes a huge, huge problem. So child marriage is legal? It's legal. Yes, unfortunately. From what age? It's so hard to say. because it is a, you know, there is a registered marriage

or there is just a Nekah, which is Islamic marriage. So that Islamic marriage is possible in any age. Like even if you are nine years old, 10 years old, you can go through with the permission of a father. You can go through that. But it is not something that's registered. For registering it, you need to be over 14. Still is very young.

Wow. Yes. If you are 14, you can register it. And then when it comes to families that don't have that much of, you know, their financial situation is hard. So, of course, again, the girls would be like the first one to be like, okay, so you can go. And then we can have like more of a resources for the family. But when it comes to education, those who didn't go through a child marriage, those who haven't been killed based on a, you know, honor killing, those who survived and go to university, 60% of university students are women.

60? Yes. That's great. So that's when it comes to that degree, if you pass all those drama that you could have as a child, if you pass that. And when it comes to the university, I think 64% of university students are women. But then funny is like when you look at the faculty members, still the men have a higher number there. So it is like, okay, so the glass ceiling is very, very low there because although most of students are women,

and even most of a PhD students are women, but then when it gets to a faculty members, when it gets to like a professors, there are more men when it gets to that decision-making situation. So yeah, but what they teach at a school is they teach the ideology of Islamic Republic. They teach that women should be modest. The first role of a woman in life is motherhood. you should be a good mother and they teach men about honor i mean boys basically so that is horrific like

um basically children get brainwashed to that you should be a modest woman and you should be a man that cares about the honor of the family and of course they look i this is a legal article that men should be a provider of a family so men are legally obliged to be you know the only breadwinner of a family. So yes, we can say, of course, women are under lots of suppression, but at the same time, they put a huge responsibility on a shoulder of men as well. Of course, that brings power as well. Like when you give them, you should have a job.

You let them have a job. Yeah, that power comes with the job that they have, but at the same time, they should be a provider of a family. So the line between the gender roles are very clear and divided. like as a woman like all the things that even here we talk about that they ask women are like who looks after your child if you're working and they don't ask man that is like like on a very very higher degree to a conversation of a woman should work for the like your job should be a hobby otherwise you should look after your child just have some part-time work to just when kids are

at school just like keep yourself busy and becoming being married with woman and having a children is basically giving you credit as a woman in society. So there is a lot of pressure on it. If you are single and if you are over 30, there is a huge pressure on you to prove yourself to the society that I'm good. But if you are married, it's just like, oh, so you were good enough that someone came and marry you. Can I just ask, you mentioned honour killings before. Can I ask about that? Yeah, so Honourkeling is supported by law

I'm afraid I have to say there are two different scenarios. One of them is when father kills their daughter they go to prison. The father would? Six to ten years. As much as someone who

stole an, I don't know, ice cream from the show, probably. If you're a mother and do that, you're going to be, it's a death penalty. Like a. Wow. Yes. Yes. So the father, as I said, mom don't have that much of a right about their children. It's a father. Father basically is the owner of their family and the child. So because that the punishment is so little, basically the law says, if you want to do it, it's your decision. If you can go only six years in prison. And then the other case, if a husband sees their wife in bed with another man. And if they kill them, it's just like a. something like a self-defense. It's just like, oh, okay, so you had a reason to do that. So in these two cases are actually legally like...

So you'd kill your wife, not the other man? Oh, no, you can kill both of them. Oh, yeah. Wow. But you should prove, if you see them, not like if you hear them or if you are out of a building and they come out, if you see them in bed, literally in bed together, you can kill both of them.

Wow. And no prison sentence. Well, no, it is a prison sentence, but this is too low. But that is basically as a justification of it, in which cases you can kill someone and don't go to the dead penalty. And the other thing is like the other side of it is death penalty. One side is dead penalty. The other side is nothing. It's just like, can we start having something in middle?

So a father can kill his daughter. No, not just daughter, his children. His children as well. It's just you are my children, you're mine, so I can kill you or whatever. it's not they're not going to be punished they're going to their punishment is just like too little so little yeah so and that happens like so many time that happens in a base than as I said the law only says if you see them in bed but that law itself makes makes the culture it's like so if your wife is with someone else that's too horrific that I can do anything of course so many

people do it in a when they don't even spend just here or something but the pressure of honor as I said they teach about honor the little boys and at the school and I should acknowledge there is so much pressure on men who live in those like places that these ideologies are stronger that like they get so much bullied and blamed by the society that why your woman is not like why your wife or why your daughter doesn't wear proper clothes or does makeup or oh we saw him with a we saw her with a man or something so the society basically put so much pressure on them to prove that they are they they are good men and they care for the owner of the family yeah I guess we call it toxic masculinity you know like that's the kind of like basically love it but it's it's so much more than that

if it's every layer it's like the conditioning of it it's hurts every level of it it's hurts everybody. It's adultery a crime in Iran. For who? For a woman, of course, as a woman, they're going to kill you in bed. Yeah. But for men, okay. There is a very different story that you can have a four registered wife. Oh, okay. And then you can have as much as one temporary marriage. That is just such a crazy thing. I mean, when I translate it to English, I'm just like, oh my God, do I even want to say that? Do we even talk about temporary marriage? So in Shi'er Islam, they have something like temporary marriage, which is you just say, you and I can be together for 10 days and that that's it. And you are together with 10 years. And if you want, you can extend it.

So that's as well as your four registered marriages. Yes, four registered because the rights are different. For example, if you are getting married, registered like your marriage marriage, proper marriage, in that you're going to have a, I mean, they're going to, if you die, they're going to have a, part of your properties and also you should you are you you need to provide for them but their the rules with temporary marriage is basically different so there is no they if you die they are not going to have a share of your property basically she's just like we're going to have sex with each other basically that's it yeah yeah that's like you're renting her yeah yes yes so you can

have a four registered marriage like a marriage for life and also you can have as much as you want temporarily marriage so adultery almost doesn't make sense because that temporary as I said there is something like a registered marriage something like a just like an Islamic you say something you say I can't I want you to be my wife and you say yes and that's it so if you go to a man and say oh that was the adultery they can say oh no we just said they're out So he was my wife. So adultery actually doesn't make sense

because they always can make a justification out of it. But as a woman, if you're married, you're married, that's it. I imagine it's you become isolated from your circles as well. Oh, yes. I mean, just the amount of, I mean, even as a divorced woman, you have a very tough life in a world. And yes, you're going to be, you're going to have a life of shame, like I'm saying. So you got divorced two years into your.

marriage. I got divorced when I was 23. 23? Okay. Very young. And were you able to initiate that divorce or did that have to come from your husband? Yes, you don't. As a woman you don't have a right of a divorce unless you talk to your husband and be like, please divorce me. Right. So our situation went on dad's son. And I was like

you know, I'm not happy. You're not happy. That just doesn't work, so please do it. And I was lucky that he did. He was as young as me we were too young and too naive but yeah but there are people that stay in their marriages for their case because they have

they don't have a choice yet they are in a they can be in a domestic violence but they be like no there is really I mean there are situations if you have like a probably if you go with one broken leg and one broken hand to the court and say okay you see this is a domestic violence still the first question

question would be like, what did you do to make him angry? Why he hit you like this? So what did you do? I mean, yeah, there are all this misogynistic and all these things are going to go on, but yeah, eventually you may get divorced. So there is one line that if your life gets too hard in that house, you may get divorce. The court may do a divorce for you. The other thing is maternal rape for example is not criminalized in iran not only that but as a woman it is your duty right so yeah to have sex with the husband otherwise they can go to and say to a court and have it and ask for a second marriage right so the court's going to punish you it's just like or you do it or he may go and you know or he will divorce you or he may can he may have a you know another

marriage. Wow. To fast forward to the situation now, so back in September these protests started and women's rights is really at the forefront of this now. Do you, are you still connected with people in Iran? Are you like, how are you following this? Like, what's the general feeling for you as like an Iranian woman watching this happening? Is it hopeful? Or? Yes, it is hopeful. I mean, I can't say how proud I am that we are living in a time that there is a revolution with a slogan, woman, life, freedom. That is just as progressive as it could get. Like, I'm just like, if someone as a feminist would ask me, like, what do you want in the world? If I wanted to think of a slogan that have everything that I want in one,

I wouldn't think of that. And I should say that, that is slogan has a Kurdish origin. so and if someone has a i don't know how much different people may know about that courts has a long history of fighting for freedom so and that's that nature of a fighting for freedom comes with this slogan and um mas or jina i mean she was a court woman so because of that on her funeral his families used this slogan they they had that history of that and then it become a slogan of a all country and i think what we were saying what I was explaining as a, the woman rights situation in Iran is totally related to this because I think it was women, you know, putting under a table and be like, enough is enough.

We are not taking this anymore. What it was is the day that the news of her massacre came out, I was like, that could be my mom. That could be my sister. That could be anyone. sometime you because Iran had like an uprising time to time every couple of years sometimes the main reason would be like a more of economic reason sometimes was more of a corruption like people would be like it's just like a corrupt system this time it was literally an ordinary woman walking in the street getting arrested by hijab police and

they were killed so everyone was like it wasn't like oh oh, I'm going to not to go to protest to save myself. I am staying home or like I try to don't say anything political. Like so many times people say I'm not political. So in these kind of a situation is just like, you may not to be political, what political is you? Politics comes for you. She was just an ordinary woman walking in a street and got arrested and got killed.

I think that was everyone was thinking, oh, the next one could be me. Like it was a slogan on the first days in a street that. People would say, for those of you that are silenced, the next one could be you. The next one could be your daughter. The next one could be your mom. Because that was real. And at the same time, she was courted. So there is a long, long history of suppression of different ethnic groups, different nation in Iran.

I want to say Iran is a kind of rainbow of nations. There are courts in Iran, Turks in Iran, Arabs in Iran. So we have all these nations that basically being suppressed by Islamic Republic. And they are fighting. their own fights. And then that fight and a woman's right fights and those people that were already unhappy with the economic situation, they all came together. So it was, I think this, the death, the murder of Gina Amini basically brought all the progressive and radical movements together, to want something more.

And yeah, I am very hopeful because I think the idea of it's made everything more clear for those who were even silent. It was just like, yeah, you may think like, I'm going to survive. It is possible for you to not to, not to, you know. I wanted to ask, how involved have men been in the protest in Iran? Do you know? Yes. Yeah.

I mean, from the day one, although we always say like it's a feminist revolution, it is a woman-led revolution, but men were always there. I'm not saying all of them are feminists or all of them are there for the equality. As I said, people with a different demands now are joining this revolution, but we can't deny. the murder of Massa was the main reason. So they felt like we should do something about it. Actually, now, unfortunately, they executed four men up until now. Yeah. So, and I think around 100 are at risk of execution.

So, yeah, and they are all men. We can't deny that men have been very, very much involved in everything. And as I said, a part of that is just like, are they, do they want what we want? But again, I think all this situation brought this discourse to public. So, okay, let's talk about equality. Let's talk about what we want. And every time that comes there, they say like, oh, we all want one thing. We want Islamic Republic to go.

It's just like, not this time because we have it in a previous revolution. we have the history, we don't want the history to repeat itself. So, yeah, but yeah, we can't deny that how much men have been involved in all of this and basically supporting women. Yes, yes, that is good. And that's the slogan, all the discourse around it. And all those help from the what's the solidarity that came with it. That is just amazing.

Yeah. Like I don't know, like here in London, Every single weekend they gather to Truffelgall Square and it's just like a huge protest, like in every other town I know. The Iranian diaspora started to showing a huge solidarity to those who are living in Iran. What is the situation in Iran?

Yes, I am in touch with a whole family. I'm the only member of my family who lives, even extended family that lives outside Iran. So yeah, I am in touch, not only with them, with friends and, you know, so many people that I know through my work. But they are hopeful and they believe revolution happened. They are just like the revolution happened, but it takes time to, you know, for us to see it and probably with a bit of a push with the international society, the things can move quicker.

What have been your thoughts on how Iran has been reported on in the rest of the world, how it has been and how it continues to be reported on the situation around what have your thoughts been around that you know as an Iranian I would like I would be it was a bit late it was a bit little

but then it picked up but what it is is like yes of course I want my country to be like headline but at the same time I'm just like how much Afghanistan is how much Bangladesh is it's not Iran is not the only place in the world that is going through all this like we can look at

Afghanistan is our neighbor like we can look at them they are just like literally it's been over a year of Taliban and now they are saying the woman can't go to school can't go to universities and how much is that in a news it's not that much I mean yeah I don't know that you know these are all relative aren't they so I mean I don't know what is much or little but I think it was it was good it was a bit of what was more concerning for me was how much the Islamic Republic apologists could get platform and had voice. Like, I

read articles and articles and articles about everything in Iran now is about economic reason. It's just like, no. Isn't it about economic reason? It's about human right. And what they do, they say it's economic, so therefore it's because of a sanction.

So shame on America and European Union to put sanction on Iran. It's just like, no, that's not the reason you're talking about something else. Like they are pretending that if sanctions wasn't there the situation wouldn't be this which is like no as I said exactly after a revolution

people started to say oh no we're unhappy with what is happening so I think yes media I mean probably for someone who is not Iranian would be very hard to recognise what is the you know

the right side of this story I totally understand that so because of that I think I think it is the duty of media to find different voices and different point of views and put them out there and then let them find the way through things. There have been, it's been quite, well, particularly in our circles, I think we've read a lot more in the last few months about a run on Instagram, which has been really good. but something you've talked about cyber attacks, and that's something that you've experienced on your Instagram when you've talked about the situation in Iran.

Can we ask what that is? Yeah, that is like Islamic Republic, you know, every single platform that you know is banned in Iran. So people use VPN on a daily basis to just have access to the news and everything. Instagram was the only platform, which was like people, could use it and now that is ban as well but um so they they made that to be there so to just you know to give something to people but at the same time they were using it massively for their own benefit as well so it was like a they they were trying to to own the discourse on the

basically on social media and then it was a time that so many feminists got it was on a cyber attacks we had like it is something like I still don't know how to explain it it was like hundreds and thousands of followers following our page like I couldn't

see any of a notification because it was just all the notification of someone someone not someone some bot basically following me and it was like and when I'm talking like I'm talking about like 200,000 follower in two days. Like, what?

Not even followers, buts. So yeah, and it was making, so it was making, it changed my, changed our circle. So what we were posting, those bots were registered in India and was being shown to Indian people more than being shown to Iranian people. So I was seeing people, people would be like, we don't see your contents anymore. So they took us out of our circles and then, yeah, or they, it seems they mass. report some contents right um yeah and instagram recently changed some of their i mean meta recently changed some of their policies about iran so before for example they would take down the post

when they had it down with dictator they would take that down or down with chomenei now they changed their policies just they announced it last week that they accept those posts and they don't take them down anymore we talked about it at the time it was really weird it when we posted any infographic or any piece of news about Iran, like Al and I were talking about it quite a lot, our story views would be like cut in half, like immediately. Significantly dropped. Yeah, that is because they were mass reporting.

Apparently that has a big impact. Actually, that's so sad to hear it. It was so weird. We thought it like maybe just a coincidence and then continually whenever you'd leave it like three days and then post another thing. And again, it'd be like straight. way at least half it was so weird so i think that is it that we were thinking that is a mass report so when your stories gets reports too much they are just like it seems the instagram

algorithm is just like okay let's show it less and see what happens if they don't take it down we wouldn't have been reported that would it i was so confused by that seems logical because i couldn't understand another reason why the story views would just suddenly drop but i guess if they were being mass reported. Like, why not? Like Islamic Republic is, they are rich enough to, you know, and for years and years, they had apologies out there. God knows.

Just to ask, you call it the Islamic Republic, but there is some, like, that's not how it's known by, can I ask if there's, what's the controversy there? The name of the country is Islamic Republic of Iran. Yeah. I don't know. You, if you, when you see Iranian, do they say, I'm Iranian or they say I'm Persian? We so much hate to being linked with our government.

So for years, we would be like, I'm Persian. To just, we wanted, at least people have the idea of Persia instead of Islamic Republic. But now we back to like, okay, no, we are Iranian and they are Islamic Republic. So how people look at it is Islamic Republic occupied Iran. Okay. So, and it is very hard. Like, I have an interview when they say. And the Islamic Republic out of the Women Commission in the UN.

So I had an interview and I was talking. I said, I'm so glad that they kicked out, kicked Iran out of that. People were just like, no, they didn't kick out Iran. They kicked out Islamic Republic. We are still, as an Iranian, Iran as a country, can be a part of an international community. Those who shouldn't be is Islamic Republic. So that's saying Islamic Republic is always to make sure we are putting a line between Iran. and the government.

Yeah, okay, that makes sense, yeah. Are you, you don't have to answer this, but are you religious at all? Well, I was born in a Muslim family. Probably by, like 10 years ago I would say I'm Muslim, but I don't practice Islam. And then now, no, I don't consider myself even Muslim. I wondered if there were any parts of Islam that you still, you know, that's still, you know, in your life. But no, no. Not now, but I can understand how much it has, you know, it is embedded enough.

Like it is the first idea that you've been born with, especially at a school in Iran. It's just like a huge, the first thing that they tell you is just like, cover your hair. Otherwise, you're going to go to hell and burn. Your sister is still in Iran. My two sisters and my brothers. How do you feel about that? Do you want them here? I want here in Iran

I want the freedom of here for them I want to be honest now I think yeah like I'm like when I think I'm just like okay I want my mom to be here my brother my sister then my cousins and then my uncle I'm just like oh no I want freedom for Iran I want every single person who are in Iran to be able to

you know experience because they deserve it and in so many countries the law is ahead of people Like, we have progressive laws that it's hard for some people to, you know, to do by the law. But in Iran, it's totally opposite. The culture, the people are much, much more progressive that the government and the law. Like, when I was talking about, when you talk about the legal situation of a woman to some of the teenagers, you're like, what?

Is it real? Because it's just like they want something else for themselves. And, you know, and even in these protests, it's. Thousands of teenager were killed. Like one of them that I feel so, I mean, for just, I don't know, for whatever reason, maybe reminds me of me being a teenager. Nikosha Karamei, she was a teenager. And one of the days, the first days of a protest, she was one of those that was burning their scarf.

And then she got arrested and she got killed. And of course the government says she has, she committed a suicide. side but yeah that of course is a lie but it's not just her it's just like hundreds of them so they want something better and they they deserve to have that and yeah i when i think about my family more than wanting them to be here i want them to have to have that freedom in their in their comfort zone in a place that they are happy to live with in their own country as it should be their human rights exactly

if that was to happen would you move back to Iran I don't think so I know my husband is British my child and now is living here I made my my life here of course I would go back

maybe I have like a six months there six months here because of the whole because I was it wasn't you're like what is happening now is very surprising. I wasn't thinking I'd be able to see such a revolution in my lifetime.

Really? Yes. And it brought so much hope. And now I dream. I dare to dream one day I will go back home. It wasn't something that I could even dream about last year. I was like, okay, it is, then that's my life here. And so it is very new. So within the previous situation, I was like, okay, I'm going to make my life here.

And I did that. But yeah, if the situation changes, I'm... You said before that you were hopeful. Are you cautiously hopeful? Do you believe that freedom will come to Iran sort of within our lifetime? I hope so I think so yeah I mean

I mean it depends how what is our lifetime what do you mean by our lifetime a lovely long life yes yeah okay yes that yeah I think so I think so because what I know is like we are not going to

go back even one step it happens it's gone too far yes exactly it happened and people are just like they are not afraid anymore And the price that they paid is massive. It's just like, I mean, every revolution, every movement is not always in the street. Of course, sometimes in the streets, sometimes goes to the home to make plans and then comes back to the street.

I think we are there. It is the situation. Sometimes we are there. Sometimes we go back. But yeah, this situation will change. And I see in my lifetime being able to go back to Iran and people in Iran. having a freedom that they deserve. What can anybody listening do to help support the women in Iran now and their fight?

Like, what can we be doing? I want to say something. As you know, when we say every woman who stands up for their own right, without knowing, without even possibly claiming it stands for every woman, I think we, every woman in world, should give that credit to Iranian women, that they are standing for every woman's rights. You know, when we talk, smash the patriarchy, fight the patriarchy.

It's not a patriarchy in our neighborhood because if we don't kill them all over the world, they're going to come for us as well. Like what happens in state about abortion? Like, it's not, if it exists somewhere else, may come for us too. There are two very obvious things that we can do. One is asking our MPs

about putting a revolutionary guard in a terrorist list. there are petitions out there people can find them and just sign them or they can write for their MPs and ask for them the other thing is to ask for to shut down Iranian embassy Iranian Islamic Republic embassy all over the world I mean of course for in the case of

British people in the UK again because the negotiation having a diplomatic relation with them never worked or gave them a chance to whitewash, whatever they were doing, like, for years and years, women politicians were going to Iran wearing a headscarf and being like, it is part of their culture, which never was a part of our culture. I would love to talk about Islam. And because I understand for some people, when we talk about hijab is overlap between Islamophobia and hijab. It's just like, no,

it's not about hijab. It's about compulsory hijab. It's about forcing someone to cover. Otherwise, whoever can cover whatever they want or they don't want. So, the woman politician were doing that because the Islamic Republic could say them it is our culture. So yeah, we want the Islamic Republic embassies to be to shut down and we want the Revolutionary Guard to be in a list of the terrorist groups. And yeah, it would be great if we, I'm sure the view of your stories will come down, but it would be great if we keep it up, you know, keep it alive. If we see something about it, if news about it, news about any protests or anything about that revolution, if we don't let the world to forget about it and just like keep it alive, it would be a big, big help, I guess. Well, thank you so much.

Can you tell everyone where they can find you? On Instagram, I'm Samane Savody. Yeah. And we'll put that link in the show notes as well so people can go and find you there. Yeah, and also on Twitter with the same name. And shout out to your academy as well. Can you tell us quickly about that? So it's a Chirot Academy, that's an online platform that we are running courses and workshops and training about sexual harassment at workplace.

So you're hoping for the safe workplace for all. Amazing, as it should be. Thank you so much. Thank you, so many. Thank you for having me. really, really appreciate it. It was really nice to feel like someone out of the Iranian community cares for us. Thank you. Thank you. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network?