Should I Delete That? - I’m a Just Stop Oil activist - for my children’s future

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

Have you ever heard a non-confrontational confrontation with a Just Stop Oil activist? Today we’re speaking to Gill Tavner. She’s a Just Stop Oil campaigner - but perhaps doesn’t fit the image that the media might paint you of one. Gill was one of the warmest and most lovely people that we’ve spoken to on the podcast. She also has a criminal conviction - for walking in the road as part of a Just Stop Oil slow march. She tells us how her activism was inspired by increasing desperation and anger about her daughters’ futures and she explains in simple, accessible and clear terms what Just Stop Oil is demanding - and it might not be as extreme as you think. We know that climate anxiety is a real thing - and we know sometimes it can be easy to avoid difficult conversations about climate change. But Gill makes the conversation digestible and understandable - and she might just make you want to take action. You can read about Just Stop Oil’s campaign to end fossil fuels by 2030 here - https://juststopoil.org/ Follow @just.stopoil on InstagramFollow @gilltavner on XEmail us on [e-mail] us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That? is produced by Faye Lawrence Music by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You know, I can be happily having a chat with my two girls and they're talking about who they're marrying their children and there's a horrible hollow in me thinking, I don't know what you're going to have to deal with. Hello, and welcome back to Should I Delete that. I'm M Clarkson. I know I like slight. You're all right.

Did I say that right? It sounded funny. Do you all you again? No, it's fine. Okay. How are you? They used to us fluffing it up. I've been sick. It's my bad. I've been sick.

You have been sick. I'm sick. I can't bear it. I didn't know how you're doing it day in and day out. I cannot be sick. Feeling nauseous is literally, sorry, I'm just going to probably make you feel worse about your situation, but it's so bad. Yeah, it's not great. And I cannot be a parent. When you've got this quit. What I'm sick? And that. When it's double-ended. I cannot, I can't, poor tummy. I just, I was just like, stop, stop looking at me. Stop wondering with attention. I can't do it. I can't lift you. I can't, I can't do this. I don't want to deep it. We don't need to go there now. But like, that's 100% why I've been feeling depressed for like a year. Oh, my God. I don't know how you've done it. Honestly. It's a bugger. It's actual hell on earth. Yeah. I am always blown away by how many DMs I get, I get at least once a day being like, oh, it's got neurovirus and it made me really realize. how bad HG must be. I'm like, oh, but how many people have shat themselves and thought of me this year? That's all I hear now when I read them. For me, more than once. Are you better now?

Yeah, I am actually. I am better. That is obviously my bad. But I can't wait any longer to tell you Dave's awkward. My awkward, which is Dave, it's a bioproxy awkward. It's Dave's also got the same food poisoning. Okay. He shot himself.

No, he didn't. Oh my God. He's going to absolutely kill you. Why? You told us all that. I can't. He's going to kill me. He's going to kill you.

He was running up the stairs to go to the toilet and he didn't make it. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh, my God. That's hilarious. Poor Dave. It's so bad that he was running up the stairs. Did he leave it behind him?

Oh, disgusting. Oh, bless his heart. Was he really embarrassed? Did he tell you? Yeah, yeah, straight away. I just shut myself. Oh my God. But I didn't care at that point.

I was like in the throes of badness all around. I didn't care. I was like, okay, cool. You guys have gone feral? I haven't seen you for three days. I know, literally feral. Oh my God. Like cavemen.

I just, yeah, no, it's a lot of grunting, a lot of like just haven't been able to function. No, okay. It's horrible. But the worst thing is, is like, you can't, you just, you have to pay. You have to be a parent. I was like, Dave, you pick him up. I can't. And Dave was like, I feel too sick.

I can't pick him up. And I was like, well, I can't pick him up. See, it is hard if you there because you both have it. Like, whereas for me, obviously huge drain on my marriage because Alex has had to do everything for this all time. Yeah. Not going to deep it. But like, can you pick all her up? Because like, when I'm feeling nauseous, I can't pick.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think, oh, we don't actually work this now. But like, for me, it's just more I can get through looking after her. on most days now, I can, like, push through a bit feeling sick. I really hate her watching me being sick. Yeah. Like this morning, she saw me and she's just going, sick, sick. Speaking of, let me get to my bad.

Please. I had a bad night on Monday night. Poor Arlo. So she's poorly. She was super duper hot. And so we go sleep a lot and leave me alone. And so I went to bed with her. I went to bed with her at like 7 p.m. or whatever it was.

went to bed because she wasn't feeling well, I wasn't feeling well, that actually is working quite well for both of us at the moment. We, fine, we're asleep. She, I've stood a few times because she was super hot. She's crying, she was in pain. She subsequently, we found out she got a chest infection. But it was a really rough night. And about 1 a.m., she sat up, coughed once,

big eyes staring at me, and then projectile vomited all over my face. I was, I was one and the more. It was dark and I like it wasn't a little bit it wasn't just like a butt like you know like it when a dog's sick and it wasn't like it wasn't like that it was it was her whole bottle of milk it was just mad and my hair was I mean the pillow pillows had gone to the dry cleaners sheet stripped it was huge and I just and I didn't want to shout because obviously that scares her so I was trying to get Alex but obviously he was asleep and I was Alex help but I didn't want to alarm her or like make it into a big deal God it was really bad yesterday morning brushing my hair took like 25 minutes oh it was a bad night it was a really bad night oh that's so disgusting but there's something about it it wasn't just it wasn't disgusting it was just more inconvenient do you know what I mean like this

that motherhood has changed me hard disagree I didn't yeah I once did with Tommy like what'd you call it we the aeroplane the aeroplane you hold them in the air I held him in the air and he vomited all over my face. And I know it was to me that was very disgusting. All I did that Katia is a baby to my sister and she took it really badly. And I actually I was like, you need to have a look at yourself. No, no, no. I was like, you need to grow up. You need to go and sit and have a look at yourself in the mirror and ask if you're proud of yourself for that reaction because I wouldn't have been. It was not cool. So yeah, that was a bad bad. Poor Olo. Yeah. Yeah. We're fine. I mean, we're fine. And she's on her antibiotics.

and we're fine. Good. I can do good. Okay. Georgie celebrated five years cancer free. And we celebrated on Saturday night. And it was really fun. And I got her cake and...

You did a speech. Did a speech. And it was great. It was just, it was so special to celebrate because I do feel like you get to the age where you only celebrate people for having babies and getting married. And it was like there was literally nothing better to celebrate than the fact that you're alive right now. now.

Yeah. Five years after she had stage four cancer twice. Everything she's, well, yeah. Two strokes this year. A stem cell transplant, which famously isn't nice.

Is that? Horrendous. Google it. It's like the worst thing in the world, right? Just like completely. Yeah, she's really been through it. So she deserved a big. A big party.

A big all out. She was super drunk. Mushy. I love it. Stunning. And you threw a cake in her face, which I really love. I did.

She threw it back in mine and I was like really. gagging and I was like I don't want to be a killjoy I don't want to be like because like she did it to me and then I was like okay I know it's coming back I'm going to be all right I'm going to be all right and then I was like I'm going to be sick but I can't ruin her party so I was like go go go go go go go it was fun it was great oh I'm really happy for georgie that's so lovely and I'm sorry I couldn't go yeah you were invited I know I can't go rubbish in case of one's worrying about it I don't I'll never get invited to anything I know I really don't I'd love to give you a good

I just don't have one Can I just have one in the bad? Yeah, go on then This week of recording Chaos It's been absolute chaos Chaos Between my sickness

Olive sickness Dave shit in the bed Not really relevant Shitting his pants So you just wanted to bring it up again Because that's not Yes it's actually not relevant at all Guest sickness

We've had so many people pull out It's just It's been a logistical nightmare Poor Faye And Dex And Dex to be fair as well Yeah He's been messed around.

It's been utter chaos. And it's weird because normally everything runs, it makes me realize how smoothly normally everything runs. Like, guests normally show up, but from the ones that don't, including that one. Update, guys. The person who studied us up recently, never heard from her ever again.

There's never been any update on that. I think I've said it before, but as a Christmas present, we'll name her. If you listen to our Christmas episode, we'll name, will name the person that left us her her awkward my own awkward um not too bad i was very proud of myself i wore my party dress i wore my sheer dress to um loved it yeah no me too loved it the only thing i will say and it's a mild awkward because it wasn't anything specific but it's just something i need

to bring awareness to that was a very i was naked in that dress like i was literally in my underwear yeah which felt brave as a pregnant person like i think not pregnant i really wouldn't think twice by an outfit like that but there's something about it i was really challenging myself anyway i thought to myself it's a fancy mayfair club restaurant yeah it'll be fine it'll be dark i walked in in the queue for the cloak room behind both of georgie's grandparents i see this well-lit room oh that's not the grandparents as well. They are very much the pre-Rihanna baby bump era. Honestly, I was so aware, her grandma was in a wheelchair and my bump was just in her face. In her face. And I was so aware of it. I was like, I am, sorry. It's a miracle in there. It's

just to leave it out, all right? She probably couldn't see around it. She's like, well, you move, please. I know, I was like the black hole. Everyone was just orbiting around. around me like the moon or the sun even it yeah it was a lot it was a lot um so i'm really proud it was one of those outfits like great for the instagram photos the next day and actually it was great i'm happy i wore it but walking in i was like oh no it was great i absolutely loved it thank you rana would be so proud i know i am enjoying it more it's fun and just because you got too bads i want two bads too that video that i made on halloween about witches yes It's gone super viral.

Yes. Not recommended. Don't go viral. If you can do anything in your power. I'm not saying that to you, you know that. But to everyone else, don't go viral. Are you kidding? The comments.

Deranged. Are they? Deranged. Deranged. It's been so good for me. I have learned a lot about what I will put up with from human beings. It's good. It's, it's...

I'm going to have a brows. Is it teenage boys? Yes, teenage boys. Yeah. Always. The Trump bros. Oh, another bad. Trump won.

Too many bads. We don't need to do this right now. There's so many bads. Yeah, a bad week. Very bad. But what happened there? You know what? We need to get into it.

We can't. We'll do that next time. For now. Like we've got a light horse episode to jam up. Yeah, exactly. No more bards, guys, except for the fact the world's their nickname. Oh my God, we're so excited about today's guest. Jill.

Lovely Jill. She was so nice. For however long we've been doing this, we've said, or since they've been becoming more and more prolific, we have wanted adjust up oil. protester so badly and bugger me we got one bugger you we did don't bugger me I don't want you to bugger me I know where you've been then don't say bugger me you say bugger me sounds like an order it does one thing you can be sure of within the parameters of our friendship I will never order you to bugger me this is

silly Alex, we're trying to introduce our guests. Oh my God, we're doing a very serious interview, please. I'm embarrassed. Stop. You brought this down. You did this. It's been a long date. Okay, look, Jill's here. I know that the climate anxiety is something that affects a lot of people. We know that it's actually sometimes even listening to this. You just want to be fingers on your ears and be like, no, not part of this conversation. But for the very fact that Jill was the most soft, warm, lovely person. I think it's important that you listen to this interview because we are being painted a picture of the just up all protesters and their kind of image and whatever and it was really valuable to hear from her. Yeah. So for that reason alone, stick with it. And for those people, because I am one of those people who do stick my fingers in my ears a little bit with the climate stuff, mostly because I don't understand it enough. But Jill was super, what she explained to us, it was all really accessible. and broke it down in a way that was just like very easily digestible. So let's hear from Jill herself.

Hello, Jill. How are you? Hi, I'm very well. Thanks. Very well. We are so excited to have this conversation. We've had on our list of like dream guests for such a long time, a just-upil activist. And I can't believe we've met one. I'm so excited. I wonder whether I actually fit into your sort of image of what one should look like. Possibly not. No, that was what I was going to say.

That's what I kind of love immediately, is that, I don't, well, I don't know. Because I think the way that Justopal has spoken about is that it's all, like, young people, like, Gen Z's without jobs who are just, like, all with pink hair and, like, gluing themselves to art pieces, and they've got no respect for anything. And, like, there's a very negative rhetoric, but it's a very specific rhetoric, particularly about that age. So I was really encouraged, and we were reading, I was really like you, and it was like, you. And it was like, oh no, this is like, we've got grownups on it as well. Like we go right from the young to retired.

You know, we have people with their very important jobs. We've got the former chief scientist of Shell amongst us. We've got reverence. We've got teachers. It's all sorts of people, you know. And all the stereotyping is deliberate, isn't it? To make us look as though we're not serious people, we're not informed. We're very responsible, very concerned people who feel the need to act.

Yeah. the world isn't looking so great at the moment. That's very interesting. You've got the chief, ex-chief. What's it? He's a head scientist for Shell. Wow. He's now on the spokes team.

That's really interesting. Yeah, he's very interesting to listen to. I bet. That's a big flip. Yeah. Yeah. Which is indicative of how important the cause is. And like, we all just say off the bat, every single time I've heard a just-up while a protester or activist or whatever.

I've heard one of these conversations that's been very confrontational. I don't think it's felt very helpful in the context of the mainstream media because it has felt very divisive and that's not what this is. I think as you say with mainstream media, a lot of it's deliberately confrontational, deliberately divisive and deliberately trying to vilify us and to marginalise what we do and what we're trying to say or what we are saying. Yes. And yeah, I think we want to preface the whole conversation by saying we're not trying to catch you out.

That's great. Thank you. And yeah, I mean, to it, to an extent. I mean, oh, it's so interesting. I've been really sitting with my own, like, views on everything. I don't know if you have. But really trying to work out, like, where I land on everything. And I have felt pretty consistently throughout it that what you're doing is incredibly important.

And I, what I can't move away from is anybody who disagrees with that in terms of where we're at in terms of the climate. Yeah. And I think we can probably talk further on about the practices and what's going, like, and the sort of methods and that sort of thing. But I guess off the bat, where, like, how did this start for you? How did the activism start? Yeah. Well, in terms of activism fairly recently, and quite often we ask ourselves, well, I do myself, how on earth, why me? How come I'm here in this situation, you know, being an activist, you know, I didn't even get a detention at school and I was a girl and I've been a teacher for 30 years and now I have a criminal conviction.

It's how did that happen? Why am I here? And I think it's increasing desperation, actually, and increasing. anger and just an increasing sense that we have to do something. We now know how urgent action is. And it's so simple that the reason behind this crisis, the collapse of our climate patterns is the fossil fuel industry. And they dictate the narrative. They sort of dictate politics through their lobbying. The only power we have against them is us is people sort of exposing this. So for my story, initially, probably when my two daughters were about the age of your children,

I just thought something had to be done, but I didn't know what to do. And most people don't. You feel powerless. So I ended up writing, I contacted a man called Sir John Horton, who was a lead climate scientist and who had set up the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. And I wrote with him his autobiography. And at that time, I thought, oh, that should do it, you know. But he was, it was such an interesting story, obviously about the emerging science.

the emerging sense of threat, the emerging awareness of where we were headed. But then as they emerged, they had big conferences and it became what they did. Unfortunately, it was woke, the sleeping giant of the fossil fuel industry. And as soon as that was done, the sort of machinations of, you know, casting doubt on the science, casting doubt on scientists and ruining their careers, taking control of the media and getting this false balance by putting science against opinion. And that opinion was funded by right-wing think tanks like the globe. Global Warming Policy Foundation. So I read all that and heard his story about it and was sort of

alarmed. But then I had to bring up my daughters, carry on working. And you just think, basically Sir John said to me, and it was probably about 12 years ago now, he said, we've got about 15 years to sort this before the patterns of the climate are beyond our control. So that fits what the science is saying now. We've got two or three years to sort it. And that's terrifying and my girls are now 20 and 22. What else can I do for them as a mum, apart from just try to do everything I can. And I did all the thing, you know, I went on the big one, this sort of 70,000 people in London, and this was May, spring last year. And it hardly got a mention on the news. But what did get a mention in the news was the fact that

Justop Oil didn't disrupt the marathon on the same day. So, you know, the fact that Justup Oil did nothing got more mention than 70,000 people gathered. And so it just became a increasingly obvious, we have to try to see some control of the narrative, which is so dominated by the powers that be. And it seemed struck me that that's the way to do it, as a punch and Jody would say. Right. To go from like no detention, like teaching. A little goody-goody. Yeah. It's surreal, to be honest. Criminal record, which I'll get on to. Yeah. It's kind of badass. Like I respect that. Badass. Yeah, I brought my friend a pair of socks that said badass on them.

But it's just surreal and sometimes I just step back and think, is this just some bizarre game I'm playing? And then reality hits again. The world we're in is it's beyond what we sort of accept as normal. And so therefore it's so hard to go there. It's hard to imagine that what we've got is actually threatened and that carrying on as normal isn't an option. It's not going to be like that.

And so we've got to act sooner so that we can have some control over what comes next rather than just descending into the chaos that will come from, sorry, but the collapse of our climate patterns and societal collapse, you know, when we've seen what it's like when people are arguing over toilet rolls in Tesco, you know, and now what about when we're arguing over food? Our crops are failing already. What about when we're arguing over water and the increased problems of migration, which, you know, unfortunately, our politicians are using to divide us still further.

So it looks bleak and we have to do what we can. I just got this lovely thought of waking up one morning with politicians saying, you know what, this is really serious. Let's focus on clean air, clean water, clean energy. Let's all work together to just try to put a limit on how much harm is going to happen and it's going to be, we're going to be war footing. We'll all just, everything's going to be focused to that. And then I wouldn't have to do all this stuff.

I could just be at home and having a nice time. and doing my job. I'm really intrigued to ask you why you think it is that we are like on a population level, like not the big companies and government, but on a population level, why we are so reluctant to face into? I think there are a few things. I mean, yeah, one, the powers that be are muddying the waters and not telling us the very simple truth of what we have to do and how urgent it is. So, yeah, I think when people are well informed, they act appropriately, but a lot of the information is being kept from us. Okay.

But I'm not a conspiracy theory, so it's just fact, you know, from studying the science with Sir John Horton. But I think it's really not a nice place to go. You know, and it's the times when I can convince myself that everything's great and I can forget this stuff and I carry on as normal are just great. They're interspersed with huge periods of realizing the trouble we're in,

feeling scared and feeling that something has to be done. You know, I can be happily having a chat with my two girls. And they're talking about, you know, they'll chat about who I marry and their children. And there's a horrible hollow in me thinking, I don't know what you're going to have to deal with. And I just want to do all that I can, which is minimal. I don't do much. Do I've walked in the road for a few minutes? People do more extreme things of that in other places.

But people don't want to go there. It's easier not to. It's easier to think that we can just make a few adjustments around the edges when actually what we really need is a whole new way. forward because our politics is broken. Lobbyists have too much power over decisions. The systemic. Absolutely. I think people get defensive as well.

I think, and not to be conspiracy theorist with you, but the idea of individual responsibility when it came to the climate, like individual carbon response, I don't know what the tagline was. Yes, the carbon footprint. That was an idea that came from BP or Shell, came from one of the... BP, I think. Yeah, and they put that.

on back onto the public and they gave us this like well you you have to look after your carbon footprint yeah and I think that the betrayal that people feel within that because there is only so much individually you can do absolutely particularly during a cost of living crisis when things are expensive and yes you want to be buying the best quality clothes and crops and whatever you want to be doing environmentally good things but it's not easy for individual people who can't afford their gas bills ironically from the same companies who've told them that it's all their fault in the first place. Absolutely.

But it does, I think, then make people, individual people just recoil away from all of it because they just think, well, what's the point? I cannot win, so what's the point? And I think it's within that, within that defensiveness that it makes this conversation really hard to have. And it makes it very easy for the media to then use Justop Oil as like another, well, look what they want you to do. Look what they are asking.

If I'm right in thinking, Justopold isn't really asking the, individual to do anything beyond listen. Yeah, listen and and do what they can to participate in sort of, we're trying to set up things like people's assemblies so that we can bring, you know, we can inform people, people can then make sensible decisions. We ask people to do what they can within their power. But yeah, we recognise the cost of living crisis is awful. But the people benefiting from that aren't those of us with just up oil. They're the same people who are causing the problem in the first place. You know, the system that we have, the huge companies making massive profits, whether that's energy companies, a lot of the massive food companies,

they're the ones sort of saying, oh, look at those people in the middle who are taking everything from you. Well, they've actually got the great pile of everything. And the thing is, it is really hard for people and we recognise that completely. Of course we do. But this whole thing of putting food on the table is you can't put food on the table if there are no crops. And we have to really get to the systemic causes of these problems that we have. And we want things to be better for everybody and survival, you know, be possible for everybody. And you look at the effects of the climate crisis, it's never the super wealthy who are going to suffer globally or locally. It's always those who probably do the least to cause

the problem and have historically done the least to cause the problem to put all the CO2 into the atmosphere who are going to suffer the most and who have the fewer resources with which to deal with what they have to deal with. Whereas the wealthy who've caused it, who, you know, have the largest carbon footprint if you want to use that measure. And historically, the countries with the highest carbon footprint, well, I say we'll suffer the least.

It will come to us more slowly. But it'll be there. You know, we've already seen the floods in Europe now in America. No one's safe from this breakdown of climate that we've got. It's depressing, is. Sorry, I know, I'm sorry, it really is depressing. But what is really, when you step into the sort of realm of taking action, you feel more empowered and you meet people who are saying, I think what

they want us to think is there's nothing we can do. Because that's the history, isn't it, of oppression? Crush people, make them, so they can't do anything. And that's why they're putting activists in prison. It's not because they threw some soup. It's because they do two things. One, they suggest that people have some power. And two, they are a challenge to the fossil fuel industry, because they're daring, they're having the audacity to speak out about what's actually happening. That's why they're in prison, not because they're a danger to society. The prison thing pisses, I've got to say, but it pisses me off.

My husband said something the other day, put it on his Instagram, and he doesn't ever talk about, he's not really like a... It keeps itself to himself mostly, and he put up a thing the other day on Instagram after two just-oil protesters put in prison. In the same week that they released a thousand sex offenders on early release, and it was like, if the prisons are full, why are you putting?

people who are relatively harmless in the place of people who are infamously harmful like they are the opposite of harmless yeah yeah that feel oh gosh see I'm so on your side I can't do a proper interview

because I'm like no I'm with you what's your criminal record for what's its official title willful obstruction of the highway I was with a group of 25 mums and grandmas in November and we walked

we set off from Trafalgar Square on a slow march and we were on the road for maybe 17 or 18 minutes before the police arrested us you know we were hoping to get to Downing Street which is only not 0.4 of a mile oh my God sorry 17 or 18 minutes

I thought you were going to say you were like on me on 25 for 17 or 18 hours and we didn't sit we were moving and we always we have a blue light policy so if there's any blue light you know ambulance of things we get off and actually on the videos as you can hear as saying blue light policy when we thought the fire engine was coming,

we all got off the road. We let cyclists through. We try when we can to let buses through because we know that generally they're the people who are on those buses are probably most important they get to work not to get sacked and things rather than the more wealthy. It was peaceful.

We had banner. We didn't want to be stereotyped like just stop oil can be. So we did have the orange banners for safety at the bag. But other than that, each of us carried a placard saying why we were there as a mother or as a grandmother as a result of which we found ourselves in court

but half were acquitted and half of us were convicted and it's just the luck of the drawer who you get weird that it's luck isn't it? Yeah.

The same crime is like oh yeah I just got lucky Yeah, standing next to each other arrested together it's like eerie mimi money It's just You're fine you're not

It's sort of part of this bizarre It's surreal It's very very strange for a goody-goody to suddenly be in a position where you feel the weight of the state upon you. And certainly when you're sitting in a police cell overnight, that's when you really feel it. And you feel a bit silly because you think the people who've been in here before me

have been really desperate. And to an extent I've chosen to be here. So that's quite humbling. They keep you overnight, though, as well. I mean, okay, we do have to do our due diligence in terms of interviews and challenge you from the perspective of the people who are in the cars who are being held up. Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. It's a stupid question.

Because obviously. That's not a stupid question because it's a hard one to answer. Well, on your balance, you know, what you're doing, you deem worth it. But how do you sort of level it in terms of the sort of public, sorry, the inconvenience you're causing to the public? Yeah, it's really uncomfortable. And when we're about to step onto the road, when we wait for a pedestrian crossing to go red,

and a car gets through, you think, oh, lucky you, you know, because we're going to be holding the rest up. And it's really uncomfortable and horrible. And in the face of the disruption we face, if nothing's done, it's minimal. As you said, 13 or 14 minutes, and we were moving. We did pass junctions where cars could escape from the road, you know, and go other ways. No one does this without really thinking through, is this okay?

And of course, we're all, I think most of us are drivers. So it's not against the motorists, which is a quite difficult message to get across. But we have to do something. And it shouldn't be necessary, I suppose, is the best answer. If our politicians were addressing this properly and it was there in the dominant narrative that we have to take action to deal with the climate, you wouldn't get a group of mums and grandmas stepping into the road. And I know other people do it too, but we did it in that capacity.

You wouldn't get them doing that and causing disruption because at the core of all of us is the desire to reduce future disruption for everybody and to make life more livable and to give people more power over their own futures. So it does appear contradictory and it isn't easy. But we've all, like I said, you know, 100,000 people gathered in London without causing disruption it doesn't get on the news right so I would hate to be in that traffic I admit it and yeah but there's another bit of me thinks you know generally the traffic moves so I don't think there was anyone in that a lot of those cues who's held up for the full duration of the thing

and actually how often do you set off in London not expect to be held up a little bit but that's that's not a fair comment because I can imagine someone who was held up still being angry but quite often I think the anger has reduced and I think people are more like yeah I get this. I think it's more the most, like in London, I imagine if you get stuck in track, I mean, even sometimes you're driving at walking pace anyway. So I actually don't really deem what you did to be a huge inconvenience as someone who drives literally everywhere in London. So, I know it's not good for the environment, but I'm very sick and I don't be sick on myself on the train. It's temporary for the frequency.

I don't get by. If I get struck, you wouldn't. Yeah, if I get struck behind it, Trafalgar, of course, so be it. Yeah. No less than I deserve. But I do think when it comes to London traffic specifically, I mean, you can divot round, you can find another route, turn round, like, it's not that bigger thing. When people are blocking the motorways, is it this sort of similar premise in terms of countering it, is it? Yeah, I think again, when people say do the means justify the end and if the end is getting our government to act and to do all they can to limit the direction we're in, to limit climate collapse and to direct our society in the right way, and the means is a relatively short hold upon a motorway, then

that's probably how I can justify it, I think, about means-justifying end. But again, none of us want to do it. If there were to be a better way that worked, that we haven't all tried anyway, then we wouldn't be doing it. It's so bad, but I just hear the stories. I can just hear the counter things. I've obviously read and picked up. Same here, me too.

Ambulances, I missed my father's funeral. I read one, a man who had an aggressive form of cancer in. He was driving to his appointment, and then, missed it and he then couldn't get an appointment for two months. Which actually, that's a broken NHS that bless him like he could. It was two months because he missed one appointment. It is awful. But, but, and what's also awful is people having houses washed away,

being washed away by rivers, you know, in the States, in Europe, in Japan, in poorer countries, what's awful is the people, their land becoming uninhabitable in areas of Africa and Asia already. and that's going to increase. So that is also awful. One doesn't make the other less awful, I understand that. Yeah. The way that the media reports on it,

which is around these, you know, they pick out the most sensational things. Like, man missed his aggressive cancer appointment and ambulances were stopped and how it's reported, then obviously then filters through to us and how our discourse is dominated around it. Yes.

Do you worry that that outweigh or overshadows the protesting and what you're actually doing. Like, is it a net positive? There have been studies done on social movement theory, but also on justop oil itself. Okay. And it's what it's called the Radical Flank. I don't know if you heard that theory.

So any movement has a, I mean, we're not that radical, are we really what we do? We haven't hurt anyone. We haven't damaged anything, really. But anyway, with the radical flank, and that people might not like the means, but they hear the message. And there's been a sort of thing done about

the more JSO got name recognition for what we did, more and more people signed up to more moderate groups like Friends of the Earth. And so people were listening to the message. And lots of movements have had a radical flank, which sort of, there's another word, the Overton window. So it moves the discourse of what's extreme sort of to one direction. So that XR might previously have seemed extreme, but actually what they're saying now seems more moderate, you know, to some people.

So there's a place in every movement. movement, I think, for a bit of disruption to bring the idea through. But I agree. And I do worry that some of what we do makes it easy for the right wing press to do what they do. But they'll be slamming the climate movement anyway because of where their funding is and who tells them what to say and do. So they can do everything they can to suppress any voice that speaks against the fossil fuel industries and the economy like that. But it does feel like an obvious parallel to draw would be the suffragettes back in the 1920s and 30s. Because you've got Emily Pankhurst throwing herself in front of a horse, you've got women tying them, chaining

themselves. And the way that they were reported about in the same way was that they were crazy, they were hysterical, they were loon, like they were wanting too much. And yet they did shift the dial. And now we're really grateful to them. We've got statues to them. I don't think there'll be statues to JSO, but we're grateful to people who've, you know, raised issues. and what they did was so much more extreme than anything we do. Well, yeah. You know, they slashed paintings. They didn't just throw some soup on a plastic cover.

Yeah. And, you know, they put firebombs through people's letterboxes. It's not what we do. And yeah, we're grateful to them. We see the, we benefit from the results of what they achieved. And like you say, we have statues up to them. Yeah. Every time I have this internal thing about just a while,

like, I have to go back there and think that they will have been labeled in all the ways that you guys are being labeled to. do and you will have been undermined and it will have been all of that. But then I still have the effects of the media in my own brain where I do think, well, this is silly and that was stupid and I don't like. And it's just really hard to level with it, isn't it? Because the painting stuff, I do think with that, sometimes I think, oh, guys, because I'm, because I'm on your side, big picture.

Sometimes when I see people doing things, I think, no, don't do that. That's going to really annoy everyone. Interestingly, first, I was just starting to get involved with Justop Oil when they, when Phoebe and Anna put the soup on the cover of the picture. And my first instinct was, oh, no, oh, I don't want to be associated with this. And then when I saw that it was a plastic cover, the painting was fine. And when I heard how they were using it for messaging about art and life and which is more precious, you know, sunflowers harvests are massively threatened actually this year by high temperatures. And that's not just a worry about pretty sunflowers. It's our vegetable oil.

it's so you know and then I thought okay that it may be in a way that's art itself because art is meant to make us question things it's funny people were really playing on the Van Gogh thing like oh bless him and he died and he only had one ear and this is really fair on Van Gogh and it's like I don't know I don't know if we can do that I feel like it took real digging to find out that actually there was a plastic case over I know I feel like that information was not that readily available when sort of right-wing media interviewers or anything they'll still say they'll still refer to damaging the painting, which is just a lie. It's not true. And, you know, and they say we have

no respect for art. We do. I mean, how many pieces of art and works of art are stored, say, in the basements of big galleries in various cities and are going to be threatened by flooding? You know, the National Library of Spain was flooded last week and damaged hundreds of books. What's going to happen when Italy goes under and Michelangelo's works, you know, when, sorry, not the whole of Italy, when Venice goes on, that's a bit grim, when Venice goes under, which is estimated to be about in 20, I don't know, 2,100 before then, all those paintings that aren't going to be savable, they will be damaged. And I think a lot of the people who are really upset about the non-damaged to the sunflowers,

they've probably never been to see it and probably really don't care too much about it. Oh, absolutely not. But they've been told by the right of wing media that they do care. It's all like this manufactured rage that isn't based on thought. The reactions that you all have are the same as directions that we have. But then you always think, oh yeah, I get that. You know, I know why it's done. Yeah.

And it has an effect. Well, that's the thing. And it has to be attention grabbing, doesn't it? It has to be because as we know already with climate change, it's really difficult to make people take notice. Yeah. I mean, without any of it, I wouldn't be here talking to you, would I? You might be talking to someone else about climate change, but probably someone more knowledgeable. But it's a hard thing for us to do.

We always think this with the climate change thing. because it's not really a conversation that people want. No. And it's hard. If, in our jobs, if Alex and I ever talk about the climate, if I ever say online that I don't, I'm vegan for the environment, which is, by and large the case, I don't like the meat industry and I don't, whatever.

If I ever say that online, everyone's like, yeah, but your coats from here and you've got a coffee and a to go cup and you've, so you're not really all, and people, and it's those friendly fire stuff that just makes the conversation actually. very difficult to have. So I think you and I, a lot of the time, just think, fuck it then. We won't have. We won't even touch the topic. I agree with you. When I'm with friends, and they say, well done, Jill, you're so

brave. And I'm not really, I've walked on a road. But then they seem to think I'm some sort of paragon of virtue. And so I say, I try not to fly when there's a better alternative, you know, so if I'll get a train through Europe. But if my daughter was to go and live in Australia, I'd go and see her. Yeah, yeah. But a friend the other day is sort of like, well, you flew three years ago. And I was just like, that's just like, that's just like, that's, what they want us to do, bicker amongst ourselves, instead of looking up above us at where the problem really is, I don't mean God, I mean, you know, up above us in the social role of the conversation, to where the problem really is. And they don't want us to turn

our eyes on that because then it becomes so obvious that something massive has to change. And they just want us to put, think that by separating our, you know, taking the plastic top off our tetrapact, put it in the recycling, is going to make everything okay again. And obviously we still have to do that. We do everything we can, all the little things. If we're all doing them, we'll make a difference. But it's not about blaming each other because we all live within this system and we've all been exposed to different forces within this system.

You know, just up where you all don't content anyone for what they do because we've all done it. You know, I used to live in Japan. I've done my fair share of flying. I've not got any great virtuous position to take on that. But I try not to do it now just because for me it feels horribly wrong because I can't help thinking that is my flight worth the life of someone's child in another country, you know, and so it's just too uncomfortable. Yeah.

But, you know, I'll overcome it if I have to, I suppose, but because it's the system that's wrong. We live at a time where mental health is terrible. Yeah. And living in an environment where you know it's very, very bad, it's not sustain the to create a happy life. And it's a really difficult thing. It's like obviously when young parents ourselves and you want to give your child a happy life

and you want to give yourself a happy life. And like I'm not going through like a brilliant patch mentally at the moment, right? Oh, sorry, I'm not going to help. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, drama. But like, as part of like my, like, coping and my, like, little gratitudes, I look for the good in every day

and I can't let myself do big, deep, bad thoughts because I've just got to get through the days and I want to feel happy. And that's the case for most of it. I think it is. Yeah, of course it is. And I think that's a really painful place that we live in where the reality is just feels

like people can't accept it because they need not to be happy. And it's incredibly selfish when that translates to like 15 trips to Europe over the year and when it translates to new clothes every week and when it translates to all these decisions that we're making. But you can see on an individual level how it gets pushed from people's minds

and why this denial is really important. And I think that's probably the ugliest part of what the media is doing because it's very well aware of that. It's very well aware of what we need to know, what we need to read, how we need to feel, how we're going to cope. And I think it's weaponised,

a lot or taken advantage of anyway when it comes to reporting on all these issues. Yeah, I think it's a really sensitive area of that because even with my daughters, I don't, we've never done the big earnest climate change thing and I think they're happily skating on the surface of some very dark water

that they just don't want to go into. And so they know that through me doing just up oil stuff, I take it very seriously. And for me, I feel I'm going to carry that burden for them as long as I can because I had a relatively carefree time at their age. But I can't just ask you, You know, when you say you're, you're sort of shoving it away there, does it actually go away?

Or is it always? Oh, it's always, I've got this impending. I'm reading a book called The Deluge. Have you read it? No, but I've heard of it. It's unbelievable. And it's terrifying because it's dystopian, but it isn't. It's literally set in 2030.

And he's basically projecting like 10 years into the future. And it's like, and it's what's really weird is reading it at the moment. And I'm reading it slowly because I've got a toddler. But it's reading like these huge world events. So there's a sort of justop oil type group. in this book, but in America, they're writing about these huge climate, hurricane, snowstorms, forest fires, whatever, flooding, whatever. I'm reading that and then I'm watching the news and my husband's best friend lives in

Florida and she's like, and it's all like, you know, horrendous with that. And I'm like, it frightens me. Like, it's probably why the book's taken so long to read, to be honest. It does really frightening. You just don't want to go there, do you? No. It's not nice at all, is it? But I think that's probably the reality for most of us.

We do hear it, right? Do you, like, is it for me as well. It's confusion. I'm not entirely sure what of what I read is right. Yeah, and I think that's deliberately done as well, isn't it, to leave us all uncertain. And, I mean, ultimately, what 99% of scientists, climate scientists are saying is the thing that's right. And but they just try to muddy that water. So we're all left a bit bewildered.

What just up who I was calling for, which should sort of clarify the waters, is a fossil fuel sort of non-proliferation treaty. So a treaty, an internationally binding treaty, to stop the burning. of fossil fuels. As soon as possible, we say 20-30 because that's what the science demands. And there are already 14 nations signed up to this, including the European Parliament, or at least they're pushing for it. So it's not an extreme demand. And imagine all the nations and the world working to that. If you thought that's what they're doing. And instead, they're investing in renewables and they're investing in insulation. And they're going to reduce our demand on fossil fuels rather than trying to find ways of dealing with our continued

burning of them. I'll just imagine waking up one morning and thinking, oh, thank God. you know, this is actually going in the right direction and people are going to be joined together in a common human endeavour to protect our planet instead of being divided and bickering. Imagine, I mean, you know, at the start of the war, that generation for five years had to, Second World War, had to make some sacrifices,

massive sacrifices, had to send their men off to die. But we're so grateful to that generation. And now it feels like we've got this another five-year thing in which, like it or not, it's on our shoulders. And it's on the shoulders of this government. And we don't have to send anyone off to fight in the trenches. We can actually make some positive changes. And people might be grateful to us.

What are the sacrifices? Well, that's it really, isn't it? We have to move to cleaner energy. So it might have to give up some of our luxuries. We have to buy less. We have to fly less. Basically, if the system changed around us, if our governments would invest in renewables, in the grid,

in insulating our homes, and sort of divest from their health. huge subsidising of the fossil fuel industry, our bills would go, but would be reduced. We'd live in cleaner air. We'd have cleaner water. For most of us, those sacrifices aren't massive. The people it threatens most of those who are making massive profits from the continued destruction. So, yeah, there'll be sacrifices and it won't be easy and maybe we'll have to wear a woolly hat in our houses for a few years to keep warm. Sorry, that's flippant. But compared to what other people in other countries are suffering

and compared to the sacrifices we might not get a choice over in the future it just seems to me it seems like a no-brainer really that we've got five years to sort it and we should do everything we can and there could be a real positive discourse around that and it does feel like change

real tangible change isn't going to be possible without the government investing and pushing and it filtering down to the masses right? Yes, yes, the system needs to change. to, you know, if it's an individual responsibility, I don't think. Do you? No, I think we can all be responsible in playing a part in promoting positive conversations about a newly imagined future in which we can, because we can't imagine that.

At the moment, it's as though we're asking for change, but it's not as though what we've got is perfect. You know, we spoke about the divide, the poverty that people are suffering, the difficulty people now. It's not as though we've got perfect and we're looking for something different. It's we've got something that's broken, the society that's breaking and fragility. And we're looking for a way to make that better. And it's possible, it is possible, but not when we're dominated by these destructive

narratives. I say that, by the way, not to like alleviate individual responsibility because obviously we do all have an individual responsibility. But yeah, it just feels like it has to come from above for like the real big, tangible change. Yeah. And just up while at the moment is arguing that politics is broken. And I think I used to, I used to think that, well, yeah, fair enough with the previous government. and I hoped for better.

But, you know, now it was intense lobbying that led the Labour government to invest, what, 22 billion in carbon capture and storage, which is, it's just a red herring. You know, it's not going to capture enough CO2. It's not going to make any difference quickly enough. It's just another subsidy to the fossil fuel industry

to allow them, it's greenwash, to allow them to carry on business as usual, as if that 22 billion had been invested instead on reducing our demand for oil and gas, that would have made so much more. sense because our bills would have gone down our homes would be warmer you know we'd have better public transport but it wasn't god that's bleak isn't it 22 billion it was black hole and they give 22 billion to allow the fossil fuel industry to carry on i think it's difficult for people to

understand quite how much money the the fossil fuel industry makes the country makes the government how how deep and you know i think since probably since lockdown and i think people have long since been suspicious of politicians and long since been, you know, wary of particularly the Tories. But I think the insider backhand nature has really come up in the last few years. And the distrust is really difficult because it does feel like, for fuck sake, like everything is just being sunk in the wrong places. And it doesn't lead anybody to feeling particularly proactive because it does feel a bit hopeless. I just wanted to know. when it came to who you're seeing sort of coming into, whether it's just up oil or into

this sort of wider movement in general, the people I keep thinking about in the UK of farmers, because obviously that's an industry that is being very quickly affected by climate change. And that is, that's livelihoods, that's, you know, mental health of farmers is very well documents being very bad, of course. But they also don't necessarily fit into the demographic that again you would imagine a climate activist to fit in because they probably it's an interesting one because they eat meat and they're probably old and they're probably like white men and you know like so you've got this because you do hear climate farmers talking about climate change and because it's affecting them so they have to but do you

see that sort of group coming into just a poll and being part of the conversation gosh that's a massive area isn't it because in a way it's easy to stereotype farmers in the same way it's as easy stereotype just up. Oh, I'm doing this fully on stereotype. I was doing some research among farmers with my work recently and they're so different. You know, some of them are newly into farming. They're sold up in London and taken up farming. Some of them are running really small hill farms that have been in the family for

generations. So I'm running vast, sort of massive sort of profit, well, attempting to make profits, sort of massive industrial farm type things. So it's so varied. The farmers I've met really understand the climate crisis because they're seeing its effects on their own land. And some of them are sort of more ingrained in neoliberal thinking. The system is as it is, and we've got to work in the system, and it is about maximising profit, because that's what farmers, if they're my generation, have been, that's the farming

they've learned. That's what they learned in, you know, agricultural college and stuff. But the generation before them was about nurturing the land and looking after it and understanding that you've got to replenish your soils. And so, but, you know, crop, what was it, this year's wheat harvest, planting was down in the UK only, 11% and the yields were down 22%. I can't used to remember numbers. I'm quite pleased with myself. Yields were down 22%. And if that continues and if that's happening in every country for various reasons, whether it's drought or flood, we're really in trouble and our food prices are in trouble and our availability of food is a problem. So, yeah, I think farmers are feeling immense pressure on themselves, on their livelihoods,

and a lot of them feel the responsibility to feed us. You know, it's what they take pride in, that they feed people. Do you feel like that pressure drives them towards you in terms of food? No, I haven't looked, maybe that's a study that needs doing of farmers' attitudes towards just stuff. I imagine, just like many people, there's a whole spectrum of where they would place themselves on that. wonder where the tipping point is basically. And farmers seem like a very obvious way to lead that question because they are the ones who are being directly quickly affected beyond people, you know, beyond the sort of wider thing of like the cost of things going up and

people who are angry about migration, not realizing that so many people coming across in the small boats that they're angry about fleeing from flooding and whatever else. So like they seem to be the ones that I can think of that are like the most directly affected by the climate at the moment. Yeah, I think it's very difficult position for them because a lot of them are very interested in sort of agri-environmental measures that they can take, you know, planting some trees for shade or for a windbreak or they want to do that. They want to look after their land. Again, it's the neoliberal model, isn't it? Because the supermarkets pay so little for what the farmers produce, farmers have to try to produce more and more intensively. And then the

government has to give them a subsidy to try to do that more environmentally because we want to achieve these environmental goals. And yet, if they were getting the fair price for what they produce, they wouldn't have to farm so intensively and exhaust the land. And therefore, they would be able to farm more sensitively and make a living. Yeah. And so in a way, the subsidies, the taxpayer is paying for environmental schemes. This is off a pretty superficial understanding, I have to say, so I have to have it, is ultimately allowing the supermarkets to pay the farmers less. I don't know. I don't know whether that stands up to scrutiny, but it's the way I see it at the moment.

But farmers care deeply for their land. They're not a charity. It needs to be economically feasible for them to look after the land. Where that puts them on the whole spectrum of supporting what we do, I suspect it's on the not really supporting us. that air. But then it's hard to, you know, that's probably true of everyone. But you're very closely aligned, but then maybe, maybe because you're not by the massive generalisations that I made when I said that I'm making. Yeah, and the farmers and just a poll, there's no

there's no world where they're together. It's mad how we think in such binary terms. Okay, so where do you go from here? Do you have a timeline planned or? No. I mean, I know that just up where we'll continue. How do you give up? this you don't suddenly say oh well we've had enough for trying to create a nice future but sometimes I just think why don't I just go and live like my friends do they're having a really nice time and I'm all angstrid and and for me I just don't know I definitely can't step back from this space and at the moment doing this sort of thing on behalf of those who've taken a step further than me and now find themselves in prison feels like I'm trying to give voice to them yeah I don't

I don't want to go to prison, obviously. Not many people do. No one wants to. No one, no. And I look at a cost-benefit analysis of that on my part and think, maybe not. But a really good friend of mine is in prison, and he hasn't even been convicted. He's called Adam. He's been in prison since July.

He was denied bail on the same day that the government told judges not to sentence, not to give custodial sentences to people even if they were convicted. his trial isn't to the end of January and it's a six-week trial so that'll take him through to March so he knows he's in prison he's been denied bail until he's a gardener until March

he's been denied bail yeah yeah a whole what was he in there allegedly for well they've changed it was originally one of Suella brotherman's laws section seven so interference with public highway

I can't have got the wrong wording but you know interference with national infrastructure but they're changing it now and they want to they now the CPS is now charging them a group of them with the same as they charged Roger Hallam and the other four so the ones who got four and five years

which is conspiracy to cause public nuisance but he's in his cell 23 hours a day and he has been through July, August, September maybe it was from August and he's one of several you know he's my age

he's coping okay yeah no hope of bail between now and the trial That's a real 1% of rape cases end up with women in prison It's when you look at it in that way You say, okay Yeah, okay So people might not like what we do

Might not like the disruption But we're not a danger We're not nasty people He's a lovely, absolutely wonderful person But we don't want to martyr them It's nonviolent Yeah, it's nonviolent And before any action that we take

We are trained in nonviolent direct action We have to go to training sessions We have to see what it is to endure sort of physical assault and verbal assault and to learn not to do anything and that protects us but it also protects the movement it has to be non-violent

and yet these non-violent peaceful people are in prison but they're not martyrs they don't want to be that they don't want us to feel sorry for them they want us to speak about the climate crisis for which they took that risk

that does feel like a massive slap in the face that's really annoyed me I just feel like the prison systems like everybody think it's exploding it's so full like we're literally setting rapists free to make space for gardeners who aren't allowed bail

because they were this is so I think between just up oil and Palestine action there's about 50 people in prison at the moment some some convicted and some unremand awaiting

awaiting trial I mean they could have tagged them if they wanted to and it's not there because they're bad or they're a massive risk, is it? The only threat they pose is to the power of the fossil fuel industry. Yeah. Really.

It's a bit of compliment in a way. It is. They are trying to keep you, you know, like you are threatening the big dog so much. But does it also stop people? You know, we say, what can I do? I feel powerless. Do we feel even more powerless when you think, well, I don't want to take that risk? Yeah.

So is it working? It's the state. The state, you know, the fossil fuel industry's power over the state working. Hopefully that I'll all be reviewed and, you know, we obviously have high, hopes of someone like Starma as a PM being a human rights lawyer, but those hopes are slightly dwindling, I have to say. Can't think why. Can I just ask if you can give your recommendations for us and for everyone listening for credible sources of news about, you know, non-opinion based news about climate change and scientific news? I think at the core of everything, go to the

to governmental panel for climate change reports. They do a summarised report every time it's released. That's one thing. Okay. I think if you follow any climate scientists, there's one, he goes under climate human. Peter Kalmus, K-A-L-M-U-S, is very good. He is an activist scientist because he's desperate.

Right. Someone like him is really worth following. Yeah. group of lawyers who are trying to deal with this imbalance of power. Similarly, client earth. There's another group of lawyers who see the earth as their client and do what they can to, you know, give it a legal voice almost.

I'll think of loads later. Yeah. No, that's great. It's a great start. Thank you. And I think the important thing we can all do is just use our voices and keep questioning what we hear and keep challenging people who find it a bit too easy to marginalise or vilify people who are trying to do something. We're not saying we get everything right at all but we're trying,

it's out of desperation and it's out of love. And I read something the day that a lot of protesters are people who understand the value of joy and we're not prepared to be flattened and you just, life is wonderful, isn't it? And there's so much worth saving and there's so much we can still save

even though there is some obviously going to be further degradation. It's just all there to fight for. and we have to fight right now non-violently of course thank you so much for joining us this has been a really interesting and so I get a much more chance to speak

than when I'm on cheaping you so thank you for that a lovely song that you've given us I know you're so welcome yeah thank you so much thank you very much it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you both and let's hope the future's bright for your little ones yeah thank you

thank you that is part of the ACAS creator network.