Should I Delete That? - Including The Curve with Felicity Hayward

Episode Date: October 1, 2023

This week on the podcast, the girls are joined by model Felicity Hayward! Over the course of Felicity's twelve-year modelling career, she started noticing that although brands wanted to use her to represent plus-sized people, they weren't actually increasing the sizing range of their clothing or making their products more accessible for larger people. Tired of being used as a gimmick to boost brands' false facade of inclusivity, Felicity invented the hashtag #IncludingTheCurve to shine a light on authentically inclusive brands and designers. Keen to make a long-term impact on the fashion industry, Felicity has continued to analyse every single show at every fashion week, persisting in her mission to discover who is and isn't making real changes. Felicity dives deep with the girls about the realities of modelling, her love of fashion and why she boycotted the British Fashion Awards...Follow Felicity on Instagram @felicityhaywardFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This one brand were like, we want you to come. I went to the fitting. There was me and two other girls who were a lot smaller. And they all had 20 items on the clothing. The right to choose from when I had one. It was giving bed sheet. Hello and welcome back to Should I Delete That? I'm Alex Light.

And I'm in Clarkson. How you doing now? I am good. I am good. I've just made a fresh batch of flapjacks, which I'm very pleased with myself for, and they smell gorgeous. I actually can't wait to get off so I can go and eat them. I know, I'm so jealous. No, no offense. No, I get it. I can't believe, though, the evolution into housewife. Like, it's amazing what pregnancy is doing to you. I know, I know. I am, this is Alex 2.0. Yeah, it's cute. It's, I mean, it's evolutionary. I actually, this has been something that I've been doing since lockdown, this flapjack. I can, I can make, bake one thing, and it's this flatjack thing, the banana flapjacks, and I found the recipe in lockdown, and for some reason, it's stuck, like, nothing else, no recipes ever stick with me, but this is stuck. They're so good. I will, I'm proud of you.

I could bring them, I could actually, you could have them, they're vegan. Please bring them. Is this your good? Is this your good that you are evolutionized? It can be, yeah. Why not? What's yours? My good is that I took the hags to run the Vitality London 10K last weekend.

it was my first hag event back since having a baby and it was stunning. It was so good. I felt like my old self. It was just so nice. There were only 10 of us this time because we didn't get them any places. But if anybody watched it and thought, that doesn't look too awful. I just want to say we've got spaces. We've got unlimited places to a 10K at Hampton Court in November.

It's for the Shooting Star Hospice. And if you want to come and do a 10K with the hags, we'd literally love to have you there so much. The sign-ups in the Havago's Instagram. I, because I honestly, I was like, oh my God, I'm back, I'm back, I'm so happy, and it was just so amazing, and I just loved it. I just loved it. And some of the girls that did the run are going to come back and do the Hampton Court one as well, and it was just great, it was just great, so happy. It looked amazing, it looked great vibes. It was just lovely. I just love my hags so much. Like, I'm never happier than when spending time with them, and I'm about to spend more time with them, because on Saturday I'm going up to do my trek, which leads me onto my bad, Alex. Go on. and I hate to tell you this because I hate that it's happening to me. Go on. I think one of my toenails

are infected. Oh. I know. I don't want to talk about it. I'm just putting it in because I've got to do a 25 kilometer trek on Saturday and then I got a half marathon next weekend and my little toe, well it's my big toe and it hurts. But I don't want to talk about it.

Is it ingrown? No, no. I think it was trying to be ingrown, but now I think it's got infected because it wasn't ingrained because I just like cut them and now it looks normal. but it just really hurts. It might, oh, oh, right. Oh, you might actually need antibiotics.

No, no, no. No, don't say that. I don't. I'm fine. Don't. No, you do have to be careful with things like that, you know. Like, I know some, oh, I should shouldn't say things like this. Do it, don't do it.

If their fucking toe fell off, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. Yeah, but you do need to keep an eye on it, though. Don't just ignore it. I'm not ignoring it, agony. I'm very, very much aware of it. I can't ignore it because my toes, like, pulsing. It hurts.

It's like, it's salt. But we're not talking about it. Wash it in salt water. Yeah. Soak it. Yeah, I'm going to do a little hot soak after I've been to the gym. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Gross. That's nice. So that's really bad. What's your bad, please? Thanks for ruining our days. My bad and my awkward are all tied up in one. Good.

I went to Seville last weekend with Dave. It was my birthday president from him. Really lovely. Had a great time. We ate our way around the city. It had some black rice, which I will not forget for a really long time. One night, we went to a rooftop bar. and we hadn't eaten, I think, since like two, and it was like half seven, just hadn't eaten anything. I think I don't know. We'd had enough. Like, we just didn't eat anything. Anyway, went to this rooftop bar. I had a mocktail, which has obviously, like, got loads of sugar in. And I was, like, drinking it. I'm feeling like, oh, I feel really anxious. I don't know, I feel funny. Like, my body kind of feels hot and I feel anxious. And I don't know if something's not sitting right. So I stopped drinking the mocktail. And then we got up to late.

I just kept saying to Dave, like, I just don't feel right. We got up to leave and, like, you know, when you're going to pass out and you feel like waves of, like, blackness. This is how it feels to me anyway, like making its way up your body. Like, your legs go and then it's making its way up. So I was like, I'm going to pass out. Dave, I'm going to pass out. Right, so we're in this tiny little rooftop, crowded, very crowded rooftop bar.

Oh, my God, you're sick. My hearing went, you know, it's ringing and you can't hear anything. So I'm like shouting, I'm going to pass out, I'm going to pass out. So Dave was like, sit down and I was like, no, I need to get to a toilet in case I'm sick because I'm scared about being sick in public, obviously, in a rooftop bar because I thought sickness might come along with this. So I was like, no, I need to get to the toilet. But to get to the toilet, you have to like walk through the entire rooftop bar and down the stairs.

So he was like guiding me through and I was like, Dave, I'm going to pass out, I'm going to pass out. Everyone's looking at me. Obviously, I'm making an absolute show, a scene, a scene. Yeah, a scene Absolutely you are The waiter was like, you need to pay Not now, Gasson In that moment

I was like, I don't care that we need to pay But Dave obviously was a bit more Composementer so he was like, yeah Let me just pay Just sit, he put me on a chair I was like, sit there, I'm going to pay And I was like I can't, I can't wait for you to pay

I don't have the time to wait for you to pay I'm going to try and make it to the toilet but I got onto the stairs and realized that I couldn't feel my legs properly so I was like crawling my way down the stairs it was so dramatic honestly because I was just terrified that I was going to be sick

on this rooftop bar like you can't do that you just can't do that so I had to get myself to the toilet you also shouldn't really be crawling down the stairs of a nice restaurant but it sounds like literally Dave was like what are you doing just stay still please and I was like no

I'm going to be sick so and then eventually I'm I he came and like he like ran and got me and was like fuck sake we ran down there was a huge queue for the toilet but I didn't look good and I think and everyone was like whoa make way like she like they were saying in Spanish like she's not well she looks bad and they let me into the toilet and and yeah I had my business and that was fine after that I recovered what kind of business sick out what was wrong with you I don't know not sure I feel like we should investigate this. I feel like this does require further investigation.

I feel like we don't want to sort of leave this one with a question mark and just move on. I think it was low blood sugar. Because I was, like, I suddenly came out and I was like, oh my God, need food. Like urgently, violently need food. And then I was fine. Okay. What a roller coaster. I know.

Poor Dave. That's his idea of social hell. Such a scene. It was such a scene. Like if I had the CCTV footage, like you just see me like this big pregnant lady trying to crawl. down the stairs, horrendous, embarrassing. Abandoned by our husband. Yeah, he's like, I've got to pay, but like, I'm scared you're going to die.

Oh, Dave, that's so embarrassing. I know, very embarrassing. Anything for me? Yes, yes. Don't worry, I'll make you feel better. Can you just mention that to your midwife, please? Yeah, I'll drop that one in. Yeah, don't just let that be a, like, don't let us be the diagnostic barrier of, like,

what's a good idea. Yeah, my awkward. You'll have seen it. Everybody's seen it now. I gave a speech yesterday. I gave a speech at a conference. Technology for marketing. I wore a suit. I did a sleek bun. I wrote it. I presented it. Actually, can I just say it was normally we do this thing. I think you're the same. Well, we get really nervous before. Do the public speaking thing. It goes fine. But then we tell everyone that it was horrible just because it's kind of weird to say it was fine. you just go, oh, it was awful, even if it wasn't. But this time, so I think people are quite used to me doing that, but this time, it just wasn't my best work. It just wasn't. Like, there was a guy on the front row out, and he was so serious. Like, I was

like, there was, there was a guy, it was more men than I'm used to, I'm used to talking to women and definitely, like, I guess the podcast, everything, more used to female spaces. I was thrown off by how many men there were. I'd put a 13 going on 30 joke, like quite a specific one in the thing, that got the take now.

Last minute, it was, it was just tough. It was tough. And it was wrong crowd. But, but actually there was, oh my God, there were a few friendly faces. I was like, I've never needed them more. Like, and I literally went up and thanked one of them afterwards because I was like, thank you for smiling at me because that was horrible. Anyway, yeah, there's a really

grumpy guy on the front row and he just looked really serious and he didn't crack a smile once. And even when I made eye contact with him, he didn't smile at me. And I was like, why do you hate me? This is hard enough without you, sir. Anyway, did the speech, but I just didn't thrive. I didn't feel good. When I finished, everybody clapped, which was

polite and probably more than I deserved but they clapped and I had the Madonna mic on and I gave Katie who was with me a thumbs up and a wink and as I gave the wink I went but I still had the fucking Madonna mic on so that went super loud and everybody heard the super loud which is fine except as a standalone video when I watched it back I was like oh God oh God it was a bad sound it was bad as I watched it I was like, oh, God, this is going to haunt me for a while. And sure enough, I woke up this morning with that sense of like, oh, why?

If you're lucky, we could potentially put it on the should I delete that. I think we should. I should I delete that Instagram. I nearly put it on my own, I nearly put it on my own grid as a real. And then I thought, no, because I really want to do that speech again next year. Like, I feel like it's very good for my career. And if I put that up, they'll be like, oh, gross. Let's do it on the should I delete that Instagram though.

That deserves us, it deserves a permanent spot. in all of our minds and memories. Oh, I hate yourself so much. Gorgeous. And we've got a great interview. Actually, this feels more like a conversation than an interview today's guest, isn't it? Yeah, it does actually.

A woman that we've both been following for a really long time, Felicity Hayward, who is doing really, really amazing work in the space of, in the plus size industry, in the fashion industry, really amazing work. And it was, I actually didn't really know her story, so it was really interesting for her to tell that and talk about that. How she came about and how she came to be a model is so cool. So cool.

So fucking random. It's so Felicity. Like it would never happen to me. But yeah, it was great to talk to her and hear about the work that she's doing and what needs improving in the plus size space. I can't wait to hear your model origin story because you said what happened to. It's Felicity when happened to you. I still live in hope that one day I'm going to get scouted.

alas. Not for modelling, but for something. Surely something. Surely something. Especially in the age of TikTok, like everyone scouted for something at this point, you know. Actually, given my previous, isn't just me concerned that I've got that niche fear of being approached by somebody with a microphone. I actually want to be left alone. Don't perceive me. Just leave me being. Yeah. But anyway. I'm good for nothing. Here is Felicity. Enjoy. Hi, Felicity. Hi, my face. Hello.

Hello. Hello. Sorry, I felt left out. I still in my bit now. Thanks for joining us. Of course. You are wearing quite a coat, a mega coat. It's quite hot outside, and I didn't really think it through.

But I think I looked like a fashionable burrito. You look stunning. That's what, when I saw you, you said to think about a burrito and I thought you meant you'd just eaten a burrito. I wish. No, no. You know, it is a burrito. A tinfoil, you know. Got it.

Yeah. Like a bag of potato. Like you just run around. Spudgy like Because you look like a burrito Because I look like a fashion Barreto Yeah

Speaking of fashion Yes You're here on the back of fashion week Yeah Fashion Weeks You've done How many? How many fashion weeks?

Where am I? Two, right? You did two London and Milan Yeah Paris is now happening Are you done? Do you like fashion

Okay Sorry, no I prefer your question Do I like fashion week? Yes and no I feel like I love fashion, I love styling, I love clothes, I love how they can make you feel. I also don't like the way that the fashion industry treats plus size people.

Yeah. So it's kind of, yes, I love wearing fashion burrito jackets, right? But it's, yeah, it's not the easiest place to be. Right. so do you feel it it's difficult because I've just come back from Milan and I just saw the carolini veto show yes which was one of the best shows I have ever seen in my whole career and I've been doing this for 12 years and I actually got very emotional at the show for people that don't know carolini veto she usually shows at London Fashion Week and she's a Brazilian designer

she's not long been doing this and she creates pieces from size 8 to 28 and they are shown on the runway which that does not happen no that does not happen the fashion industry over the last 10 years I mean we cannot we all know about this but they usually curve models and plus size models on the runway have only just been trickling in for the last few years the last five years you might get like a celebrity or someone like Beth Ditto, who is being put on the catwalk as a gimmick for some of the big designers. They're dressed just that look for her and it's not shoppable. But in the last sort of like two or three years, we are seeing plus those models on the runway.

But it usually is one or two. One or two and it usually is the same group of girls that they pick. Yeah. So to go to Milan and see a show where there are models that I've never seen before, models that aren't don't have a flat stomach they have a visually big belly big legs like not just that perfect hourglass shape and seeing them on the catwalk looking so beautiful enclosed that fit them and work well with their bodies they're not just something that's oversized or stretchy like the pieces have been molded to their to their curves was honestly phenomenal and they're shoppable they're shoppable yeah

You can literally shop the pieces on her site. Which shouldn't be a big deal. I mean, when you really, really deep it, it's like, imagine someone that knew nothing about the fashion industry. And they come in and they watch a show and they see something and they're like, oh, the point of this is obviously to sell the clothes. And then they're like, oh, I like that jacket. I'm going to go buy that jacket. And then it's not possible to buy that jacket. What's the point of the fashion show?

Yeah. Like when you really, really deep it. Okay, first of all, two things to say on this. I love that you're using deep as an adjective because we have had that on this podcast. Alex missed it once. Yes. Yes. We can.

And since then, every time I hear it, I always think of you. So listen to that. And you sound cool using it and with the same age, so I feel validated now. But, okay, so I'm one of these people that never really got fashion. And it's only in the last, it's only probably since TikTok

that I've started understanding fashion in terms of, I think it's made it more accessible to like get like I feel like it's quite if you don't get it you don't get it and you're a bit late to getting it and I never know which which design is a bit problematic or like what history is in this or what model I just I missed the beginning bit and then I found it too hard to catch up so I just completely disassociated whereas now like I'm seeing like creators that I love like you're going to fashion week and then I'm interested in what you're wearing and I'm interested in what you're seeing and then my friends are doing the street self photography and then I'm interested and it's like

social media is like leveled it and has made it more accessible and interesting. But I still find it fascinating that as much as like catalog moved on or social media campaigns moved on with brand, Catwalk is like belligerently not moving on. And I find that really deeping it, like fascinating from someone that doesn't understand fashion. I don't understand how they get away with it at all. Well, it's the high-end fashion houses that have this one idea of beauty and what they believe is aesthetically pleasing to their brand. Yeah. And that's what they'll keep.

Yeah. So until, but like you say, we now have all of the designers that are at Fashion Week, like Shnade O'Dwyer, who she, she's at London Fashion Week. She's super inclusive. And I'm not just talking about size. Like, you know, we've got models in wheelchairs going down the catwalk, and it's not just one. It's not just tokenism. You know, there's all abilities, like all ages.

Like, you know, it's just, it's an incredible. thing to see but it is the younger generation it's not the big fashion houses they are still stuck in this this little like beauty like time lapse of just what they think is right and i think the more that we promote and with it the likes of tics up with the social media like back these young designers that's when we're going to be able to make the changes because let's face it the older the older generation like they are dying he's got to hang tight That's what I keep saying. Do you know what I mean?

And our younger generation are going to be the ones that like take over. And I think, yeah, Caroline Evito was just insane. I'm, and I don't know if this is right, if this is even right, I'm thinking out loud. But like, those high-end fashion houses, like, surely they, just from a business point of view, surely they know that like we don't necessarily want that anymore. Like, we want more inclusivity. I just don't, well, do they feel? like they have to like maintain this air of like exclusivity like only thin women can access

all only thin rich women can access our clothes what is it they just it's just like an outdated standard of beauty it's like it's control I think the older generation as well they've been able to control the fashion industry for so long and what they they think is right and then you've got these young designers coming and going no this that can look good on anybody's shape this isn't just for one person and they're disrupting the industry in such an incredible way that I think some of the old designers are now, still, they're getting so, like, defensive

and they'll just stay with what they believe is right. Some of the things, like, I was, again, watching Fashion Week recently, like, and I'm thinking of the Prada show loads, because, well, because I saw Kylie Jenner, Gwen. And then I thought, I mean, like, she looked great, but it's like, it's so lazy

to only have to put it on one body. Like, imagine how great, like, imagine how good you're tailoring, how easy it would be to show off how good you're tailoring is. If you could put it on, you make something that's going to work

on everybody's body. Like that's a much bigger flex than like, I made it look good on a coat hanger. Tadda! Yeah. Sheneid Dwyer this season, she didn't do a catwalk.

She decided to take us back to the RCA, which is her classroom where she learned. And she did like a presentation seminar and she actually told us how difficult it is. Not how difficult it is. I take that back.

How the educational system make it so difficult for these young emerging students. and designers to create for larger bodies. They only have small mannequins, small busts, all of the equipment that they have actually at the universities is based off one scale. And Cheneid O'Dwyer, she said for her collections,

she makes four different bodies. So she does four different sample sizes. And she is a young designer. And if she can do it... Right. If she can do it and she is powering through to do this and you know the same with carolini vito if she is making clothing from a size 8 to 20 to 28 it's you can do it and these bigger brands they have the money so there is no excuse if you've got smaller designers

who don't have the money that need the funding carolini vito was back by dulci and gabana this season she had all of that money to put herself on a huge platform and she was She was able to go from, say, 10 to 12 pieces that she may do at London Fashion Week to doing 30 pieces at Milan Fashion Week because she had that funding. But even without their funding, they're still making these moves. So what is it? So bigger fashion brands don't have any excuse. There is no excuse.

It's just one ideal that they're still sticking to. And what I used to find so stressful, like in the last decade, is when I would see somebody on the catwalk or attending. a fashion week show, a high-end fashion week show that would have an amazing piece of clothing from that designer and then you won't be able to shop it. It was not even last year, Alexander McQueen had the most incredible person

model their collection and I was like, she must have been about a size 22 and I was like, this is insane and it was a really, really gorgeous trench coat. And I went onto the Alexander McQueen website, saw the campaign and on there you could sort of like click the model and find out what they were wearing and I was like okay it's this jacket and it was a pre-order so I actually was like you know what I'm going to call the store and see what sizes they go up to because

she's quite obviously my size and I called the store in London in Bond Street and I was like hi I'm looking for this jacket I've just seen it online I was like what sizes do you go up to and I thought you know what I'm going to lie here and pretend I'm a lot smaller than I am to see the reaction so I said I'm a size 10 but I'm not sure what's sizes you go up to and I said I'd probably like it to be a bit more oversized and they literally said to me they were like we currently only have it up to a size 12 wow oh my god I thought you're going to say like 18 and I said okay and they were like if you'd like us you know to order it for you let us know because I thought I'm going to go in and see what sizes they do

and I just thought what is the point of putting a plus size person in your in your campaign on your ways if you don't sell them now I'm hoping it's just because it was a you know potentially a pre-order or you know they are getting more sizes in but it was not shopable what is the point it's arguably worse it is worse putting a plus-sized person in your show altogether because it's like why are you doing it then it's like almost for the controversy if it's not for that practicality it's for publicity yeah I just want to look like you know tokenism yeah the thing is like plus size people, they want fashion. They want fashion and they want luxury. You know, not everyone can go and afford a jacket that's two grand, but to have the option for it, to save up to, you know,

find it elsewhere, find it on Vinted. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I'm not just saying that, but I think there's so many corrupt things that happen with the fashion industry that's just so frustrating. On the flip side of that, but also in the same vein, there are a lot of brands that do go up to a site, I don't know, they're more inclusive than others, let's say, or they've extended their sizing range. But if you go into store, it'll still only go up to a 12, and they don't want to put those bigger sizes out on the shop floor. And none of the mannequins are wearing a bigger size or are bigger, you know, themselves. And there's, in the e-commerce, there's no models modelling that size. It's like, so you want the money. You want the custom, but you don't want to

advertise it you don't you don't want to associate yourselves with anything that's not thin basically it's it's frustrating because i've seen the rise of the plus size industry and and the brands extending their sizes because you know i've been a model for a long time so i remember when you know all of these brands extended their sizing because i was like great more work for me more work for our community and i remember when they all got put into the stores and then six months nine months later they got taken out and the thing is when you put your plus size ranges at the back of the store on the top floor

don't promote it they're not going to do well because no one's going to know it's there and then the same odd excuse if it didn't do well so we took it out and we put it back online so it's a you know it's just a vicious circle there is not many places a plus size consumer can shop on the high street and then you get brands like rickso and never fully dressed who never fully dressed have a store in essex and rickso have one in west london where you can walk in and shop and the best one is marina rinaldi who is more of a luxe italian brand who they only do plus size and they have been doing it for years and that's the only shop in bond street that you'll be able to walk in wow really yeah isn't that mad yeah it's actually it's deranged because it's

again, if you're like an alien coming to Earth and like looking at it, it's like, so we've got clothes that don't fit the people. Why? Like, it doesn't make any sense. From a business perspective, it doesn't make any sense. It physically doesn't make it any. You can't logistize, rationalise it. You can't make it make sense.

But I can't remember the exact point, the exact figure now, but it's something, because it's continually rising. the plus size industry in the UK is worth billions of pounds like it's insane is it yeah like because you've been doing this for 12 years the plus size industry probably when you started was worth peanuts not yeah nothing so you've been in it for 12 years and it's like completely blown up babe when I started there was no real plus size designers that I could think of and I was notoriously an editorial model so the difference for people that may not know is editorial is when when you are shooting for magazine covers or, you know, fashion magazines

and their photo shoots rather than promoting clothes. And then commercial sides, obviously, when you are shooting for the brands and you're doing their TV ads and whatever. I remember seeing a shoot where it was for Versace. And the model's wearing a Versace bed sheet. I'm not joking. So bad. On the catwalk? No, no. In an editorial.

And it was like, she looked insane. She looked amazing. But I was like, oh my God, like that's a Versacea dress that I could wear. And I looked in the credits and it was like Versacee home. And you're like, at that point in that time, you couldn't, you wanted to use a plus size model in your campaigns, but you didn't have the clothes for it. So you put her in a bed sheet. That is appalling. And now they've got plus size models walking.

on their runway they've got maybe two um so there there is definitely been a change and i don't want to be negative about every single point yeah there definitely has been a huge change in that so you've been coming back to fashion week and you said you've been a model for 12 years so you've been in the industry for a really long time you founded something called including the curve yeah can you can you talk us through that yeah so in 2019 i'd been sort of going to fashion week for a few years and it got to the point where I was just like why am I attending these shows that don't have clothes to fit me

so I'd go to the PRs I'd get the invite I'd be so excited that I was able to go to one of these shows and I'd get to the thing and it would be like what's the biggest size thing you've got like maybe this will work maybe don't I'd always walk out with a bag

or a pair of earrings to wear to the show I'd get there all of the peers like the other peers on the front row would all be in like full get-up and I'd have my photos taken and I was like why am I promoting this brand that they don't have any plus-sized models on the catwalk they don't have I'm wearing

it kind of goes against everything I'm standing for but equally I knew I was sort of like the only plus-sized person at these shows so I felt like oh I should be there because I want to wear my outfits and show myself and be that person but then equally I was like do you know what I'm not doing this and then the British Fashion Awards came around which is obviously one of the most prestigious events in the fashion industry I'd gone for the last sort of like two years before them with different brands with Google with River Island and I had made myself and styled myself I think to look quite good for what the clothes I was given and this one brand were like we'll come with you like we want you to come I went to

the fitting there was me and two other girls who were a lot smaller and they all had 20 items on the clothes right to choose from and I had one and it wasn't just like it was like maybe just the most amazing outfit that they only decided that, you know, it was going to be for me. It was an oversized black sequin batwing dress. That's awful. It was giving bed sheet. Oh, that's awful. And I was just like, yeah, very itchy. But do you know what I mean? It was just, it was giving, it was giving like, no shape. No shape. And you know, the years before then, I had managed to style up high street or other pieces and made it look quite glamorous. Because, I mean, when you are plus size, you do have to be very creative

and you have to work a lot harder than your smaller peers to try and get the same style or trends. And they go to me with this one thing. And I was just sort of like, I don't know how to react to this. I left. And then I said to my publicist at the time, I was like, I'm really unhappy with this. I need to like have a think about it.

And the day of the show, I was like, the event, I was like, I'm not going. I don't want to go somewhere where I'm not appreciated by this brand I'm not going to go and represent you so I remember I ordered KFC I put on girls trip

and I sat there and I just put I just like tweeted I just put you know what I'm not going to the British Fashion Awards I'm sick and tired of plus those women in particular being an afterthought in fashion and I don't want to feel grateful for being invited something that I don't feel

as an equal and it went viral like it really it made an impact I didn't I was just that she I was just being bit stroppy you know I was just like I'm not going whatever you know and it made like articles within wow within the hour I made more press by not going than I did going it was it was quite strange and because of that I just started to think like why am I going to occupy spaces where they don't appreciate me like I'm not going to do it anymore if they're not going to include plus size if they're not going to include the curve then I'm not going to go so that's where the hashtag where it was sort of founded and I then boycotted land of fashion week I was like there

was no point in me going this season because unless I see what I what I what I look like I'm not going so I boycotted it and then I yeah started this hashtag and what I do every season is I look at every single show at every single fashion week and I check every single model. It's about 12,000 models. Oh my God. Per season. And I then I calculate how many of them are plus size or curve. And also to put on there, some people say to me, oh, that person doesn't look plus

size. How are you promoting this? But I'm like, well, the fashion industry, a sample size is like an 8 to 10. so if you are above that size you are considered curve or plus size so I know at the moment we've got like all of these terms of like mid size and plus size and all these different things to call people but in the fashion industry for modelling if you are above a 10 you're considered curve or plus size depending on what they want to the terminology of it so a lot of the time the curve models that I am reporting on as well are a size 12 which you know in my opinion

and I don't believe that that is a plus-sized model. But I'm going with what the industry is showing us. So, yeah, every week, every fashion show, I'll start with New York, then London, then Milan, then Paris. I will create content that shows you how many models that are considered curve walk each season. And it's really interesting because you might look at Milan Fashioning this just happened and you might see the Carolini Vito show

and think, oh my God, Milan is so amazing. Milan is so inclusive. They are better than London. They have created such a wave. And I'm like, no, no, no, hang on. Through my report, last season, Milan had 14 models. It's around 2 to 3,000 per week.

Okay. So they had 14 plus size models out of that. This season, they had 45. Okay. So it's a huge jump. But the reason they have 45 is because 30 of them were hers. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah, for one show. With one show. So you can look in and say, oh my God, like, Milan is amazing. Is it amazing? Because actually, there was only 15 other models. If you take away her show and she usually shows in London, then it would be completely different. How did the others weigh up comparative? between like London and New York.

So New York used to always be at the forefront. It was always, because they've had plus-size models longer than we have in the UK. They've always been the ones pushing it. So it's usually New York, London, Paris, Milan. And for context, what are those numbers? I mean, it's quite embarrassing when you actually think about it. The maximum amount of plus-size models we have had in the last two, three years. I'm going to say, but also, that's me doing my report,

but I'm going to say in the last 10 years because I'm not joking in the last 10 years, there's never been any plus size more, isn't that right? The most amount we've ever had is London this season. We had 81. Wow. But that was out of, like, you know, 3,000. Wow.

It's amazing that we've managed to pull it back because it was always New York. But the reason why New York did so bad last season, they had 31 and the time before they had 70 and that was the Zen pick I was going to ask you about that that was so basically the good thing about the report is every season you'll see if they if they're staying the same or if they're getting better London has continually got better since last year which is amazing for us because we were really really low in numbers New York used to be the best and then since it was January this year, right, when the ozempic craze came into town and the rise of heroin chic and all of this stuff was the skinny years in and this is the new trend and it was all coming from America and that was in January and then in February we had Fashion Week

and it was, you could completely see the influence that that had. Fascinating. And that's the influence that it has on the fashion houses hiring the models, right? It's not the models that are losing weight or is it both things. No, I mean it's got nothing to do with the models losing weight because it's like there are models of all sizes in every city. So it's literally the fashion houses of deciding things back in again. So we'll just...

It feels like they've just been waiting for their opportunity. I mean, honestly, I'm just, I'm not saying it's definite, but the figures show if New York had, you know, 70 last season, last September, this whole rise came in in January. And in their shows in February, they only had 31. It was the lowest it's been in years. It didn't take them much time, did it? almost like they knew it was coming.

Do you know what I mean? You know, I'm not saying it's the definite, oh, yeah, this is definitely why. But. We'll say it. You can't, it does less. It feels like there's been that shift, doesn't there? Yeah, yeah.

The Kardashian, like, transformation. And then everybody, like, you know, having the, well, I mean, speculatively having their implants and stuff taken out. Yeah, they definitely did. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. But it is mad that it's like,

I mean, I don't, well, I would be interested to hear your opinion on it. Do you feel like, because obviously, like you say, the plus size industry, like, boomed in the last few years. Do you feel like the trend, in quotation marks, is now that fashion is going to go back to where it was and then we'll just keep riding this? Or do you think the plus size industry will keep going up and up?

I really don't have the answer. It's really quite frustrating because I think we definitely have had the boom of, body positivity and all of that and I think it's just it's had its moment and now it's just sort of riding on this it's just floating along um I think there will always be trends that go up and down I think but I think our generation the generation the younger ones I think that they have such a voice and such a power and you can see that through the younger designers and also they have they're accessible everything's accessible nowadays they can read they can research they everything's on the internet whereas you know our generation didn't

really have as much accessibility to that I think that they there will they will be helping trying to keeping us on some sort of like hopefully a road that allows all bodies to be accepted I think I don't even know for making sense here no I know I know what you mean I think just from a purely level of like plus size people have been able to say like it's not fair that we just can't like go into high street store and shop our size or we can't see ourselves represented in the fashion industry and I feel like I feel like that can't go away now we can't ignore that now that it's I mean I feel like plus size people were too scared to say that beforehand because it was seen as really like there was a lot of shame around that and it was like

too embarrassing to say that like you should just be trying to lose weight and not like complaining about that and now they've had the voice to say that and i feel like we can't go back on that now that it's out there i don't think that the younger generation will allow it no i don't think that they will and i think we'll still keep fighting for it and i think what was strange was that the that new york did go diabolically down yeah but then this season they went up to 70 again i don't really know what went on there they did have a lot of bad press for it didn't they? They did.

But, yeah, it definitely felt like the OZNPic, the Y2K stuff, like the Mew mini-skirts and the low-rise and it felt like that, yeah. But I suspect it has something to do with being slammed so hard for it. I hope so. Yeah. Well, then if so, that means it's worked. Exactly. Do you not mean so that means it's worked.

And also, London seems to be doing really well. And usually we have Caroline Vito. Yeah. So we... Should this would have been another 30. That would have been another 30. That would be the most I think we would have ever seen in the whole of fashion history. Yeah.

And that's exciting. That is exciting because in 2019, it was piss poor in London. And I'm like, we're the people that, like, invented punk. Do you know what I mean? We're the people that really... Like, and here we are going, oh, I can't put a plus size person on the runway. Like, give over, like... Can I ask but, like, how you feel about...

Again, just because you've, like, been, you've seen it all so much and you are now, like, observing trends, like, how you feel about body positivity in generally, like you touched on the movement earlier, like, do you feel like it's got within, do you feel like it did what it needed to do in terms of a movement in that it educated people and it is now people can just run with it with the knowledge that there isn't only one option? Or do you feel like it still needs the momentum behind it that maybe was injected and it's less, like, present? I think it had a huge impact and I think the where I would like to see it continue is that brands not just use those people as a gimmick, you know, just because when it happened, everyone was like, oh, it was a really big thing. They were using so many models and whatever. And I feel like it's now gone to a back to the place where they only still maybe use one, one plus size model, one trans model. You know, it's like, I think it's making sure that, you know, it's not a gimmick and it doesn't even. to be like the world needs to look like it looks yeah it's like a cross-section society yeah like how nice if campaigns looked like that like a cross-section

society like and why wouldn't they look like that I think that's why it was the milan show was so special because it was like you know as well there was there was plus-size women of like like I've just I've just never seen anything like it and I don't know if you've seen the footage online but like that's all your stuff everyone was crying like the women were crying and I tell you what was something that was I got so anxious before that show I I flew myself to Milan I went specifically for that show I went there I got kitted out in the whole look I had glam I get there I'm used to being in London where you know the community you know everyone that's here I got out of my car at that show and it was a

the Adulchingabana headquarters and there was all the Italian street style photographers I got out my car and they put their cameras down and this isn't me just being like it's not this you know it might sound like it's just being my ego of like why didn't they take my photo like you know it was more than that there was girls there who were thin they were not in they were not wearing carolina vito they were just wearing any old random designer and the photographers were running after them and they were just Italian influencers. And it's not even the fact of like, you know, I'm not, no one knows who I am in Italy. I'm not, I don't go to Milan often, you know, it's not, I'm not known over there because

I still think that the fat phobia in certain places is still so rife. How would you not? And Caroline Evito's outfits, they are so recognisable. She uses a lot of like metal and like metal clasping and stuff. And I walked out and I was just a little bit like, oh, and it took me back to like the last 10 years of fashion of like oh I can come to Milan I can come to a show I've been invited by the actual designer I can wear her full look and I'm still not good enough for you

I'm still not good enough for you to acknowledge my presence in this place and I walked in and I sat down on the front row and I sat there and I was like oh my God I didn't even get a photo in in this outfit like I'm on my own like this is like it just it just took me back to being that young girl of like not being not being seen and I saw two women on like sitting not far away from me that plus size women and I looked around

and everyone else was quite thin at that moment at time and I did you know what I'm just going to go and ask them so I walked up to them and I was like hi I'm so sorry to ask you this I was like would you mind taking my photo in here so I have some documented pictures of me in this space and they were like oh my god like of course of course and it felt like I'd got like some sort of little family there that I had but had to go find the plus size women and go I've come all the way here like it's such a special occasion they took my photos and you know they they happen to be editors of different magazines and they were like we know what you feel like they were like this has happened to us all the time we don't even get acknowledged and then the catwalk show

happened 30 plus size models come out and all of that that stress of of not not feeling seen just absolutely melted and disappeared and we went outside after the show and all the models were you know having cigarettes outside or you know just chilling and we all out there and we were all singing and dancing and like it was such a moment where I was like oh my god I feel seen heard safe just because someone looks like me going going walking in being like oh my god I don't belong here and walking out with all those models and we were walking around the streets of Malam we all went lunch, we went for apparel's, and it was just like, you guys have just made history. This is something that I have never seen or never felt in the fashion industry, and how embarrassing, when you said about those aliens earlier, how embarrassing would the aliens be looking down thinking, you don't make things for everyone? How strange? It's so weird. How weird?

So only half of you can get dressed. Yeah, this doesn't seem to make any sense. You've been doing it for so long, and it's really disheartening. to hear that you still feel like this in some spaces because following you, knowing you, like, I imagine that you're just the most, and when I picture you and think about you, I think that you just, like, ooze confidence. So it is, like, it's disheartening to hear that you still feel that there are spaces. And I completely get it, but it is really disheartening that there are still spaces.

Because I imagine that you just, like, smash everywhere you go and just, like, feel... We're all human. I know, I know. And that's my, like, projection of, like, I guess, because you're a model and you've been doing it for so long. and every time I see you, you're just like, whoa. So I just imagine that that's how you just like roll out of bed and spend your whole life. But there must have been times over the last 12 years

where you've just thought, I'm not, I can't. Because it's really tenacious to keep showing up in the space that you do have these feelings of feeling unwelcome. And how do you do that? How do you keep showing up for it? Because the reaction that you get from these things and like the people that you meet, the conversations that you have, You know, the conversation, I've come back from Milan, the conversations that I've had with women online have been like so incredible and like that's what, that's what keeps you going.

And to be honest, it's not always like this. There's just moments. But when I experience those moments, that makes me be like, now I'm going to go harder. I'm going to go harder. And if those moments are still happening in your life, it means that the changes are still need to be made. You know, we do need to be seen. We do need to be heard. We do need to be valued.

and you know people need to be educated that there isn't one sort of one type of body one type of body that's desirable in the fashion industry and yeah I think it is you mean we're all in the same space you get it when you're talking about something like it's even if it's something that's upsetting to you if you feel like it's helping other people then then it makes it worth it but honestly yeah there's been hundreds of times in my career where I've just been like oh oh oh You know, I remember shooting for a brand abroad and, you know, when you want to take behind the scenes photos, you know, take photos of the screen. I really like that outfit. And the campaign came out and like, my hips are just gone. Really? They just cut my hips off. Really? And I was just sort of like, oh.

And I remember this was probably, you know, six or seven years ago. I remember me seeing those photos. I mean, oh, my God, I look amazing. I look amazing. What's different? I look amazing and then I looked at the photos on my phone

and I was like oh my god they've completely photoshopped me that's not what I look like and why did I think I looked amazing smaller because those are the images

that we are being you know if they're chopping off models bums and hips what is that doing so but you know we've come a long way since then yeah

you know we are seeing you know real skin real real bodies and when I mean real bodies I just mean not photoshop

edited yeah do you still see that now with your with campaigns that you do but they wouldn't get a chance to do that now what would you do would you oh I mean I'd yeah yeah it'd go all out yeah it's it wouldn't happen now but I think you know when you came into an industry where you weren't that plus size modding wasn't a thing when I started so you just kind of took everything how did you start how did you if there was you know like yeah how did you I got scouted dancing Stana Ross in an east London pub yeah you fucking did That's what I'm for confidence. I'm talking about Felicity.

Forgive me for thinking of the most confident person ever. And they were like, what we're doing a shoot is Anna Nicole Smith. Do you want to be her? And I was like, hell, yeah. Oh my God. That is so cool. Yeah.

That's so cool. So that was the beginning. Beginning. Photographer is called Mars Aldridge. He's a huge fashion photographer. And I actually went to uni to study photography. I studied his work and I was like, this is the coolest thing ever.

It's so cool. Yeah, I went to set and they, one of the best things about it. actually was you know I I was a broke student I just I just you know finished uni and I was working in bars running vintage shops doing everything I could possibly and I remember going to set there was like two security guards there with diamonds like guarding the diamonds I was like are you joking and I was there for hours and it was one of the most amazing like I just was like I wanted to show these

pictures to my grandparents I was like I just wanted to have something that was I did I thought it was just the one off I'm really good I get my fingers and all these pies you know I mean I was like this is just a little thing I've done yeah and then the the shoot came out was in a magazine called Pony Sep and I was working a speed dating night at the bar I working and I got an email from a modeling agency and I wasn't supposed to be on my phone and I was like someone who's punking me like I recognize that name I recognize that name and It was Chavorn, Dockety, from the Sugar Babes. Fuck.

And I was like at store model management. And I was like, hang on a minute. I recognise that name because the sugar babes are iconic. Yeah. I know who that is. That name is emailing me from store model management at the time was like one of the most prestigious modeling agencies. Is anyone representing you? In between like this speed dating night and I was like, no, this is, I ignored it.

because I was like someone is punking me and it turns out that they weren't punking me and she was working at Storm in the time that's so fun for Shvonne Docket who's working at Storm but pre or post sugar bit oh obviously post chagabit they're having such an amazing revival

at the moment they just did the O2 they're incredible I know I'm so jealous I would actually love me too we come out to the Sugar Babes a freak like me our live shows so we need to go to sugar babes as well Yeah, absolutely. Should I delete that outing if you'd like to come. Yeah. But on expenses.

So you've got the seam up and then I went into me and my agent was, Mama's still got it. Louise. No way. So she then signed me. So Louise signed me at Storm. That's another show that I'd delete that guest. She's going to come to the gig with us too.

Bloody hell. So she signed me. I met her, fell in love with her. She became my agent and I was there for a little while and then, yeah, it was quite, quite a journey. I ended up leaving and I went to Milk. And then Louise rejoined Milk as an agent and then

she became, after that she became like this incredible superstar that she is now. Yeah. Wow. It's been this whole weird loop of like loads of us in all different industries were just sort of like muddling through. Yeah. What were those early shoots like? Was it plus size fashion

it wasn't a thing? Well mostly editorials. Yeah. You know so it was The bed sheet days. Yeah, the bed sheet days or just sort of like the stretchy days where everything would be stretchy and, you know, I mean, I had a great time. I'm not going to lie, but I mean, I remember I was working 2012. I was living in a house in Bethnal Green.

There was quite a few of us, I think it was about six of us. You know, my room was the living room. And our landlord decided to throw us out because the Olympics was on and he wanted to rent out our house for the Olympics. We had nowhere to go, and I remember I had borrowed a shopping trolley from the local supermarket, and me and my mate had found a flat just down the road above a pub. So we were moving all of our stuff in a shopping trolley. So there was like a mannequin in there, like a sequin jackets, like a bag of records.

And I just got a tweet that said cover star number six, Felicity Hayward. And the shoot that I had gone to do with ID magazine, the stylist forgot to say, tell me that I was doing the cover so I was walking the streets not being able to afford like a rental van using a shopping trolley and then I was I was the cover of ID magazine so it was just it was a really really wild time back then that's cool and it's something that I'm like very grateful for but also just sort of very a very strange time to be in the industry when our bodies weren't really accepted well how was that how was because you were also, it was like the Twitter age

when you were, and people fired off opinions like, and it was controversy, like, you know, it was being debated on Good Morning Britain and like, and that's a bit later. It was when, that's, I know, like, it was quite a big conversation at the time. How was it being

like in the middle of that? Do you know what? I feel that when I started, because I was shot by Miles Aldridge, I was automatically put in this little category of like, you know, I was doing really cool high-end editorials. So I kind of was let off because of that because I had ordered these photographers behind me, like I'd shot for ID magazine,

I'd shot for Patrick de Marcellier. Like, I'd done some really cool stuff. So I feel like my body wasn't really at that time, maybe considered. Yeah. It was more like, oh, she's a bit of a gimmick. We'll just use her. And it took a long time for me to get paid work.

Really? I think that. Because you think about it, There was Evans. Yeah. There was simply B had just sort of like started to branch out and to do younger, more younger clothes. And the same with Evans.

Like there wasn't really plus size brands out there. So there wasn't money to be made. And do you know what I find so strange? And I say this all the time is that back then when I started and I was only doing editorial, there was no money. There was hardly any plus size brands. But there was a ton of beauty brands. But they wouldn't touch us plus size models.

and beauty as we all know it doesn't have a size and I always say this and I say this a lot of the time I work with the body shop quite a lot who I think are amazing and they've always been ahead of their time but for the beauty brands back in 2012

to 2015 me as a you know size 20 woman if I go and buy your product so if I go and buy a body cream yeah and my best friend who's a size 8 goes and buys a body cream we use that body cream every day who is going to use it up first me yeah

because I have more skin I have more body I'm going to use more products therefore I buy more products from you so how come just from like just from logics yeah I'm just like why do you not use more plus size curvy women in your adverts when we literally use more products than everyone else. That's just stating facts. It's just silly. This isn't me trying to make a scene or whatever. I'm just literally like, no, it's clever.

I use more products and other people because there's more of me. So why would you not want to cater? A market to me. Idiots. It makes no business sense. But you just keep seeing this. This is the issue that we've come around, again,

beauty and fashion. It's just like, every time, it doesn't make any logical business sense at any point to exclude plus-sized people from the conversation, but the, like, fat phobia is so entrenched in everything that that usurps any logic, which is actually nuts, because if you spoke to any of these men in charge about any other element of their business, they would prioritise making money every single time. Right, absolutely. One thing they like more than money, it's controlling women, so they're going to keep us small. It's so annoying. Imagine putting,

Imagine putting all of this logic into like estate agents. Literally. You can imagine? I know. I know. It's not to any other context. Like any restaurant, you put it into any other business.

It's completely unviable. The dragons would be out. It would not be interested. It's so annoying. But change, like, you're seeing the change. Like, you are the change. You are.

All of us are the change. But that's one thing that I do want to reemphasize and don't want to downplay is how much of an impact, including the curve has had. And before we said, you know, New York Fashion Week, it turned things back around after February because it got so much of backlash.

But that came from your reporting. Yeah. And your reporting continues to hold everyone accountable. And that is really cool. Thank you. So well done. I think that's so cool. It takes up a lot of my time.

I can't even imagine. I would get numbers. This isn't something I get paid for either. This is pure, like, this is what I really truly believe in. and you know it's been yeah it's it's an absolute journey i'm not sleeping at the moment because i'm up because also as well you've got to think about you have um the different time zones especially with new york so you'm trying to get everything up and also as well like i'm trying to find all of the other off-schedule shows as well so like selki in new york had an amazing show um it takes

a lot of time but also like i said before it is really important selki's gorgeous i wore one for my do I love the they're all that they're all the photos that I've seen I've seen them in plus size women

and I just think they look so good they're designed I feel like those dresses are designed for plus size women

yeah and it shows like it's just it's fun there's a lot of brands that do like again they are the smaller indie brands

they will do like these ticsics and stuff where they'll show that say they do 8 to 28 they'll show every model yeah

every size and I'm like oh that looks like London and I just love it because you can actually get an idea of

Like, what, it just, but it makes business. It makes business. It doesn't make sense not to, yeah. It's stupid. But it's really cool what you're doing. Helping all these business companies, like, see, at the end of the day, you should charge them all as a consultancy fee. Consultant, yes.

It's my new job. Yeah, fashion consultant, business consultant for these stupid little men at the top to help them make more money with their businesses. And then you're like Robin Hood because on the good side, you're just getting women. Although unrelated and a bit superficial. I do think you have another job in you you've got a really nice voice like a lovely like soothing

lulling voice producer daisies agreeing you should be on the radio yeah you should be you've got a really like soothing voice Oh my god I got a mini mic Do you? I became one of those people

I took it to Oh my God love it No I took it to I was going to say Berlin I haven't been to Berlin to Milan Did you love it? Yeah but the problem is I kept leaving it on

and then when I was just recording, like, other stuff, yeah, I don't know if I'll continue with the mini mic. You've got mini mic and you never use it. I know, I went through a face, like a week of like, it's all I did. And then, no, I don't know where it is. I think I did that in 48 hours, yeah. Thanks so much for joining us.

Honestly, this has been so great. And we love you. We fucking love you. Thanks for listening. Love you. I love, too. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.