Should I Delete That? - 'It's my body, why do you care?' with Tess Holliday

Episode Date: March 26, 2023

This week on the pod, Alex and Em are joined by none other than the ICONIC Tess Holliday. Tess is renowned for her modelling career; as a plus-size woman she has been a role model for many, and has garnered a lot of attention, unfortunately not all of it positive – Piers Morgan, we're looking at you! In this episode, Tess opens up like never before about her relationship with her body, notably her anorexia diagnosis and how it feels to get older in the public eye. Follow Tess on Instagram @tesshollidayFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Guys, we have a super, super, super exciting announcement for you today. We can't tell you what it is right now, but if you're listening to this from like Monday evening onwards, please check our Instagram accounts. The announcement will be live and we really hope that this is something you can get involved in and we're excited. And I just wish I could tell you now, but we can't. We're not allowed. But from Monday evening onwards, the news is out and we hope you can make it. Thank you so much. aging is a bitch getting older will for sure humble you if tick talk doesn't first i get daily reminders of how much my body has changed and evolved my body dysmorphia has been like not cute the last couple years hello and welcome back to should i delete that i'm alex light and i'm m clarkson smash it first time how are you doing i'm I'm good. I'm good. Are you? I literally feel like I haven't seen you. I see your Instagram stories. I see a lot of pistachio baked.

That's about it. I know. It's funny, isn't it? I know. Although I did, when did we, I saw you two weeks ago, is that right? A long time for us. It is a long time, isn't it? Especially because the period, like, just before you gave birth, we were together, like, all the time. Every single day. We did literally, like, three days a week.

Sad. We'll get back there. So it's weird. Yeah. How are you? How are you? I'm okay. I have had an illness. I am. I haven't had a, like, I haven't had like a regular cold, like a run-of-the-mill lurgie for about 10 years. Like when I go ill, I go like really ill.

I'm like, bam, bronchitis. But like, like, COVID flaws me. But there's like nothing in between. Like, everyone else gets cold drops like flies. I'm like, pussies. Like, not for me. I take sin proof. I'm absolutely fine. And I've literally been the pinnacle of health for so long until newborn life. And my immune system is just under the carpet. So I got sick. Oh my God.

I have a sore throat. I'm on the bounce back. I'm on the way back up again. But it was a bad weekend. I was poorly. I've been on this. And you can't have stuff when you're breastfeeding. You must just suffer. It is a woman's prerogative just to suffer. What do you mean? You can't have it. loads of medication. I think, so they mostly say, like, if you're breastfeeding, you need to talk to a doctor. Now, most things are fine. But truthfully, the reason they put that layer is because they don't test on breast, you know, they don't test these things. It's like how they realize the COVID jab affected the menstruation cycle.

They didn't know that because they didn't test it on women before they did it. Like, it's the gender bias, I think. I don't know enough about it. I'm just guessing it's misogyny and sexism. So we'll just go with it. I think it's medical misogyny. I agree. Thank you. So, yeah, I mean, you can't have, like, the decongestives, like,

soda fed and stuff, because that is, like, legit bad for the baby. But there's quite a lot of stuff that's just, like, you need to ask your doctor. And I'm like, my doctor doesn't, the GPs do not answer the phone. And if they do, they do not give a fuck. Like, they don't get. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're fighting fires. Yeah, they are, like, they are busy people.

They don't want to listen to me. And like, so, can I take piratin? They're like, yes, fuck off. Oh my God, it is a minefield, isn't it? I never really thought about that. I know. Goods, goods, bads, awkwards. Good, have you already good?

So I just did a talk for my old eating disorder hospital. And it was something that I have known about, that I have known that I was doing for a long time, but I was absolutely terrified about it. Literally, it was like waking me up at night. I was so scared. I was scared of getting emotional. I was scared of triggering, you know, it's all impatience.

I was really scared. of triggering anyone. I was just scared about the whole thing. I was absolutely terrified and like, you know, we've done, you know, a few talks, haven't we? But it's never to people. I mean, there might be like some people that are listening that have an eating disorder, but it's not specifically eating disorder patients. So I was really scared. And I was scared for all the emotions it's going to bring back. And I was just, anyway, you get the point. I was scared. But I did it. It was fine. I was so nervous. I was like shaking. It was actually supposed to be. in person, but because I

was ill, I didn't know if I mentioned, I was ill. Because I was ill, it was over Zoom, which I do think helped, because I was scared, I was just, like, terrified about doing it in person, so I do think that that was a blessing in disguise, but yeah, I did it, and it felt like a really,

it was really weird and super surreal, but a very much like a like full circle moment, I guess. Yeah, and quite cathartic, and I was really sad afterwards, I just couldn't stop crying afterwards especially like yeah

yeah it was just it was it's hard I guess knowing the road that they have ahead of them and like seeing it like it just it just made me feel really sad but I'm really glad that I did it

I'm proud of you that was my good good you're so good at you're talking you're so good at talking I'm not I know I know I oh god I mean do you know what, normally, and normally it's fine. And we've done a few together, haven't we?

I love it. Yeah, I heard a thing yesterday. It was like someone describing someone and it was just like, she loves an audience and I was like, I get that. Like, you know, like, I'm so nervous before you do it. And then when you get up, it's like, oh, okay, it's fine. Like, when the people are there, it's like, I can do this. And I feel a lot better doing those things with you. Because when you're on your own, you're like, yeah, it's really scary when you're really, you're right. Yeah. Just because if it's awkward, it's awkward and there's no one to be like, oh, this is awkward. This is someone to help. It's just awkward. Yes, it needs someone to like pick up, pick up my slack. Yeah. Or like pick up the silences. Nothing worse. And there's no

louder silence than one with a microphone. Oh, I hate it. But that's the reason that I always end up saying like stupid things because like my brain can't work fast enough to say something to meaningfully fill the silence. But at the same time, I can't bear the silence. So I'll just be like bleh and then be like why did I say that and then you've got to go home and think about it

every day for the rest of your life like fuck why did I say that stupid stupid thing so what's your good I'm so tired

no I was actually I was looking out the window and there's daffodils and I am just so fucking happy that it's warmer spring is springing I feel so

apart from the fact I feel ill I feel so good I think I keep saying I'm going to do a post on Instagram about it and I keep trying to get there and I will but I literally can't find the words

to articulate how I feel about it and I think it's only like now I'm seven weeks out of pregnancy that I'm like I was so ill and I got really emotional thinking about it like obviously I could cry thinking about it because it's only now

I went for a walk yesterday by myself because Alex has been a busy bitch this week and I had all over my chest and I had beer on my arm and I was like in my leggings skipping basically down the feckin street and I got into the park and I did like two laps and I was listening to my podcast and the sun was shining and I just was like oh my god like I didn't even realize morning I smugpa I didn't even realize how far away I'd got from myself like I just yeah I just I haven't been me for like nine months

and I didn't I didn't even notice that until now and I'm like oh my god like cesarean recovery aside now that the sickness has gone I'm just like and I'm only just beginning to process it and I feel so light and so grateful just for like my health so I'm actually just really happy I'm just happy that I can I realized it the other day I went out and all those days you and I would go and podcast record and I would get home and I would literally barely get through the front door like I was I mean like vividly remember being sick on the doorstep like not that long ago and like I would I would put it in the car or a cab or whatever, having been sick in the car or a cab, and I would get in the house, and I would just literally go straight to bed or like straight on the sofa, and I couldn't even think about food.

And, like, that would only when I'd have been out with you for, like, three or four hours recording or whatever it was. And the other day, I went out with Arlo, I left the house at 8 a.m., and we were out until 5.30. And I got home, and I put her in a carrier, and I went to the shop, and I cooked dinner, and then I ate dinner,

and then I bath her and I was like oh my god I'm normal like this is what it feels like to get home from a day out and then have an evening like I couldn't just yeah I couldn't walk and work and eat and do anything else if I had one thing to do in a day I had to do that which usually was work so everything else suffered I didn't walk I didn't spend time with Alex I didn't eat anything I didn't cook like and now I'm like back I'm just I can do it all again. Oh, I'm just so happy. That's so, you, you were so ill. I think it must be really difficult when you are living it every day, every minute. It must be really difficult to, like, notice the contrast because it happens, it happens so slowly. It's like, you know, when you've got a headache. You can't remember what it's like not to have a headache.

And then you probably, like, I'm never going to take for granted not having a headache again. And then you're like, oh my God, I'm never going to not have a headache again. It's like that. Yeah. I think because I spent so much time with you, as well. And I saw it day and day out. I don't think I fully appreciated as well, like, how ill you really were. It's only seeing me now that I'm like, this is how I'm meant to be. Yeah. Yeah. Alive. Yeah. I don't give a shit that I'm getting up at 4 in the morning because

I'm not getting up to throw up. So anything other than that is a win. Yeah. I'm cleaning up someone else is sick, but that's no problem. So the, well, moral, moral of the story is don't get pregnant. Or, no, that, or, or, for anybody that's like, doesn't want to hear that, just remember that everything is temporary. That's what I, like, clung on to when I was pregnant, and now I've got the proof and the validation that I was right. Yeah.

So, that's good. Yeah, and it was worth it. Oh, fuck, yeah. I'd do it every day. I would do it every single day for the rest of my life, rather, every day. I'd just be a shit mother to her because I would be exhausted. That sounds awful. Thank God you're not.

Oh, I know. That's a nice good. That's a good good. Good, good. Yeah, it's lovely little daffodils out in front of me. I'm like, everything's just good in the world again. Oh, good. Anything bad?

Bad, bad, my bad. My bad. I have found a third influencer who has blocked me. What? Yes. Yes. Without having crossed paths. As far as I am aware, as far as I know, like potentially to these three

women potentially I have done something inadvertently that I just I'm not aware of but how rude I mean we do always say that people have to protect their boundaries yeah but okay two things do they not know that I'm sensitive okay number one number two um I'm not like I'm not like batting down their doors trying to like get in there you know bat down their boundaries and get in their personal space. As far as I'm aware, I didn't even follow these people. Oh my God. I don't know.

I'm mortoed. I'm triggered. Yeah, I'm crushed. That's huge. What does you do? Number three, what did I do? What did you do? Well, damn it.

So there we go. So damn it. I'm so sorry for you. I know. I know. I know. I mean, like, I don't like it when I found that I've been unfollowed by somebody. Although, that person that we talked about a long time ago that unfollowed me has recently

They followed me back, so I, I, I am, I've got a whiplash. Right. Right. I do not know what's going to go on. I'm not going to question it. Oh my God. Okay, I've got another one as well, right? So, I went to an event the other night.

Yeah. And this woman came up to me and was like, oh my God, I love your content so much. Like, I had to come up to you because, like, I love, word for word. I love a bit of Alex Light, right? Just a bit. Okay. Which is obviously, like, weird, but whatever. I'm giving you content.

So I was like, oh my God, so nice to meet you. I'm sure I'll love your content too. And then anyway, I had to go. And then I asked someone like, what's her handle? They told me her handle. So I was like, cause I'm going to message her later and follow her and say, you know, so nice to meet you. So I get home and I was like, must remember to message that lady. She was so nice.

I go on her account, she doesn't follow me. Why does it hurt so much? because this happened to me when my mum went on holiday to Thailand and she met this woman and my mum was ringing me from the airport in the way that only a mum can do going, well, I got to talking to a woman

in the airport transfer and I said that I was going to be a grandma and that we didn't know what cot to get you to get the baby and anyway, and I got to talking to this woman and she had a new baby and then turns out she knows who you are

I was like, well how did that come up? Turns out she finds out she's follows you on Instagram, and she loves your content. She kept saying that she loved your content. And anyway, this is what you have to get. And I've got a list of all the things. And she said that you can call her any time. And I was like, okay, thanks, Mom, like matchmaking me a friend.

And then I was like, well, that is nice to be fair. So again, I went to go and find her on Instagram so I could message her. She does not follow me. Does it follow? So good. So bad, isn't it? I think they're probably just being polite and they just hope that we're not going to follow up. Because to be honest, why would we follow up?

We're just being needy that we're following up. Most people probably wouldn't. So it's fine. My bad. I actually feel ashamed to admit this, but we have mice in that. So cute. I feel so many things. I know.

It's so cute. I don't mean that. What I do, because I have a little squeaks and I'm like, wee little scykes. And if I didn't have a newborn, I genuinely would be like, okay, pets, fun. um but baby um so i have to be sensible um it's horrible you know our neighbors are doing an extension they've ripped their whole kitchen out they've got builders in so i think the mice

are taking advantage of the fact that there's like no house there so they're just like oh cool there's just holes everywhere like there's no wall between so i think they're just like come in from wherever mice coming from i spoke to the contract about it yesterday they're like oh sorry that's going to happen i was like okay cool so um really sad um they're hanging out in the cupboard where boo with dog food lives which to be fair probably a good cupboard but

better than like with the plates and stuff or my vegan food anyway yeah not great so we've got someone coming at three and literally I had a chat with the mice and I was like I'm really sorry I think it's your last night like saying about it you love them

I think I killed them I don't know oh my God I think they have to because if they take them away let's come back again. Oh no. I don't want to ask. We're operating a don't ask, don't tell policy with the pest people because I just don't want the answer.

I think that's for the best. I know we have to do it because I know that Arlo has got to be clean. I don't know a lot about babies, but I just feel like mice and babies are like a super bad combo. Yeah. Are they rodents, mice? Yes. Yes, yes, they are. Big time.

That's why the pest control come to deal with. them they're pests I know it's difficult for me to get my head wrong because my sister always had pet mice although we had an incident

with a pet mice because we had a pet mouse called Madonna and we didn't realize that when we got her she was pregnant and she had loads of babies and then all her babies

had sex with each other and then they all had babies and we had like thousands of mice and it was really bad and Madonna lived for like fucking ages and she got this massive tumour

that was like as big as her and Katia was making mum take her to the pet and my mum was like oh my god like she's a pet like she like I know she's a pet but also they were like talking about doing this massive operation to remove the tumour but it was like quoting my mum like thousands of pounds my mum's like oh god um but it was like catty as baby so madonna's tumour was removed it was a whole thing so i feel a real affinity with mice because we had them as pets so I just feel so bad um but yeah i keep talking to them i'm like but blah so yesterday morning was when i realized that

they were here so i get up at like five in the morning and like this is just me not wanting the confrontation like when alo wakes up i you know Alex has got work so i'll like take her downstairs and sit and watch the sunrise and drink a cup of tea or whatever in the kitchen and i heard this like scuttling in the cupboard and the little squeak squeak and i was like oh no and i was like i don't and boo was being fucking hopeless she stood up in bed with Alex and i was like okay I don't want to, like, I don't want to see them. I don't want them to come out because I was just, I'll fuck it up, I'll scream or like something and I was like holding all this.

I was like talking to the mice. I was like, hello, please don't come out. I'm scary. Stay away. It worked. They didn't come out. Well done. Well done.

Thanks. But I'm not going to always be there to sort of like manage the crisis. Do you know what I mean? So I feel like we are going to have to. get something to do so anyway coming at three today i'm really upset i'm looking at pictures of mice online now i'm feeling don't do this to do this because i have no alternative this is the this is the killer thing like what do you do you've got to get rid of them i'll have a word with the man at three how do you get rid of mice without killing them

peppermint oil just make them a cup of minty if you're really polite honestly i think okay well look i'm gonna pray for the mice i'm gonna pray for you keep us updated yeah i will do oh god i'm absolutely crushed um it's not very vegetarian not be vegan of me is it it's just like i don't eat meat but i'll murder all these mites no drama no there is drama guys i don't feel good about it i just i have to stress that i've really i've been eating me up i feel absolutely rotten you're not to add homicide to your CV. And I've organised it.

You know what I mean? Like, I haven't been getting my hands dirty. I'm just paying for it to be done. It's premeditated. 100%. It's very premeditated. It's horrible. Stop it.

I don't know what I'm talking about anymore. This is not manslaughter. What's your own? This is murder. What, oh God. On a last scale. What's your awkward? Oh, my awkward.

My awkward. I was in Copenhagen. Copenhagen took Dave, didn't take Dave, I always think that sounds weird. It's more like he took me, but it was for his birthday, birthday weekend away in Copenhagen. We went together to Copenhagen. We went to a design museum because Dave loves design and he loves Scandinavian design and shit like that. So we went to a design museum and he was taking his sweet time with all of it. He reads every single word in a, in a museum as if it's like a legally binding document that he's going to have to sign and it's painful. we're in this room I was like let's move on I was trying to hurry things along let's move on to another room so I spotted the exit to go to take us through to the other room I go towards the exit I move towards the exit I turn into the exit yeah and it was a it was a mirror and I basically flung myself into the mirror And without skipping a beat,

Dave said, well, that's your awkward for next week's podcast. He knows us will. And then he ran away and I was like, why are you running away? And he was like, because I'm embarrassed. Because this is embarrassing. Fair fucks.

Fair fucks. I was like, no, please. The police do leave. My awkward, luckily for me, I'm not leaving the house a huge amount to cause loads of awkwardness. So this was a small personal one. I don't, you know, I've been ill.

Yeah. have you ever have you ever blown your nose whilst having a wig? No, but I can imagine it accelerates the flow It really does

Oh my God, I'm going to try it It just caught me unawares I was like by myself yesterday and I was rushing And I was like multitasking The moral of the story I didn't if you remember this time last year

When I taught the story about the time That I tried to take my shoes off while I was also having a wee and I ended up weeing all up the wall. Gorgeous. Similar thing. I was like trying to save time. Yeah, so I was having a wee

and I went to go and blow my nose and as I was blowing it, I was like shush, shh, shh, like the wee just was like barreling out and then I was like, whoa! But I was like, why is it so... It just feels so intense and then I've got really awkward about like just my own wee.

Anyway, it was just, it's just something fun to try at home. And they say that we're not, a serious podcast You know, honestly How dare they? Shooting my own way out I love it

I'm going to try it I'm going to report back next week Oh, but I've been excited about this interview I know, I am It's just huge It's so exciting Isn't it?

It's Tess Holiday Who's a bit of a megastar The one and only She's a like She is the megastar I honestly For as long as I've been doing this, like, and working on Instagram or social media or even writing,

anything, Tess has been so, like, just everywhere, and I'm really on my radar and just so amazing. Like, I've just admired her and been a fan of her for so long. So to speak to her, I was not cool. I was a fan girl. I was nervous. It was great. If you remember back, I was not cool. I kept trying to say something, a phrase. I can't remember which one it was, but it was not cool um but yeah she's so cool she's so cool and so pretty so pretty um and we covered a lot of ground in this episode actually so yeah okay um just enjoy it not gonna no spoilers but enjoy it here's test holiday we love her bye hi tess thank you so much for joining us today and just before we started recording your manager sent me an email and just said i just making sure you've got tess's bio

and I love how it starts it starts with Tess Holiday has no filter and she has no interest in finding one I love that it's very me it is very you is that like is that a conscious thing or is that how you've always been um I have always been that way but when but it's funny I'm that way I'm that way with my family and I was and I'm that way in my career but when it comes to like it's funny I'm that way in like some of my more intimate partnerships, whether it's romantic or platonic, I sometimes have a hard time being that person because I'm still working on boundaries with, you know, people I love the most. And I'm still kind of, I'm so much of a people pleaser in my personal life. And sometimes I have a filter too much but I'm learning to be better but with like my like my family growing up and my work

I say whatever which is actually how I got into consulting it was you know I was working with this brand and they weren't getting it right and I spoke my mind and now I'm helping them so I'm really grateful I don't have a filter because it's it's really given me a career and set me apart from my peers. 100%. I find this time really exciting because it felt like there was a sort of big shift where it felt like big public displays of like trying to do the right thing with brands and then it often hit and miss.

But it does feel good to know, like to hear that you're doing it kind of behind the scenes and like working with brands not, it's not like necessarily for their clout that they're doing these big one-off things, but they're working with you. more long term feels quite exciting. It does and it's been really validating. I mean, this is something that I've wanted to do the last few years especially because, you know, if I'm being very honest, the plus size modeling industry is booming. We have more diversity than ever, but you're still not like, you're still not seeing a ton of bodies like mine. I mean, recently Jordan modeled for parade and did a big campaign for them. And that was the first.

first time other than myself in like a hot minute that I've seen someone visibly fat, like not just plus size fat and tattooed and like with a big belly. And that was really meaningful because, you know, for a long time, we weren't really seeing much body diversity. And so I say all that to say that I've come a long way in my career. I've done a lot. lot of really cool things, but it's not always backed up with brands in a genuine way. And as much as I have tried my entire career to never partner with anyone that doesn't feel good, and I've maintained that, it doesn't always mean that you know when brands are being authentic or genuine. You can only kind of help or go with your gut. So having a brand see my value and use the knowledge that I have

accumulated for the last, you know, decade plus has been really nice. And no one knows. This is like the first time I think I've talked about it. So hopefully I'm allowed to talk about it. We'll find out, won't we? I'm not saying anything. I'm not giving any detail. So I feel it's fine. No, it's good. But it's exciting. Yeah. Thanks. So you are one of the world's most famous plus size models. But that's not like the only thing you do. You do talk a lot about eating disorders and disordered eating and weight stigma and a lot on fat acceptance as well.

And if you're okay to talk about your diagnosis, we'd love to ask you about that because in 2021 you were diagnosed with anorexia nervosa. And you actually opened up about this on social media. And if you don't mind, I'm going to read your tweet out. So you said, I'm anorexic and in recovery. I'm not ashamed to say it out loud anymore. I'm the result of a culture that celebrates thinness and equates that to worth. But I get to write my own narrative now.

I'm finally able to care for a body that I've punished my entire life. And I am finally free, which is beautiful. Like, it makes me feel a little bit of emotion. It's very beautiful. But this tweet blew up and it sparked a lot of conversation, a lot of debate with a lot of people questioning the diagnosis because you don't live in a body that's typically associated with anorexia. Now, I would like to know how this diagnosis impacted your life and also how it must have felt to have tons of people try and invalidate this diagnosis. Thanks for saying all that because I'm no stranger to people being very loudly opinionated about very intimate parts of my life. But having this be ripped apart has been really difficult.

It, you know, I don't weigh myself, but I've gained weight and part of that has been because, you know, I'm doing things differently than I was. I am caring for my body differently. There was, you know, a time where my body was smaller. Now my body is bigger. And people notice everything on the internet. And they don't necessarily have all of the information or know what they're talking about. And even though I know all that, it's still incredibly hard to see thousands of people

every single day tell me that I'm not that I don't struggle with the eating disorder that I struggle with or literally just on TikTok there was discourse about well prove it show us show us show us your diagnosis because there's so many people that don't believe me even though you know New York Times just put out a very extensive article I was about two months ago talking about the very thing that myself and millions of people around the world are dealing with that you can live in a larger body that anybody any size can starve. And more importantly, that this is an eating disorder that like all of them that is psychological. So I think people just really do not understand eating disorders and in particular anorexia. And I say that myself included,

I can understand why people look at me and don't believe me. Like, I get that. But at the same time, because it is, you know, a psychological disorder, mental illness, some say, it, like, fucks with me because then I myself, I was just telling my nutritionist this, who has been with me this whole journey, Anna Sweeney, who's amazing, she, she basically told me like, it is real. So you can't let that influence you. It's something I'm very passionate about because I didn't tell anybody that I was putting that tweet out. My manager, my PR, my team, no one knew that I was tweeting that. And I did it so flippantly because I was just

tired. And when I got the diagnosis, it felt very validating. It felt very freeing. I felt like I just wanted to tell everybody because I've spent a decade all around the world talking about my body and loving your body. And so I kind of just thought that if that was happening to me, I would know, you know, I would know. But I had no idea that it could even be a possibility. And I wish that I would have known sooner, which is why I told everybody. But it must be like very freeing and empowering for you to own the narrative because like you say your body's been you've talked about your body you know publicly for such a long time but you've also had to because it's been talked about so much you know it's been like such a thing that people want to talk

about and I just find it absolutely bonkers like listening to you say there that you know people on TikTok are making these videos saying that you've to prove it and it's like what like we were in such an odd space with social media that your body is so publicly people have got this like crazy ownership of it that they'd have this conversation without you of course you put that tweet out like you I can completely understand you you want to control the narrative somehow well I think that the reason people are so invasive I mean obviously social media lets others feel like they know you in a way and so therefore they think that if you share things online that that means that it's it's theirs now to dissect and pick apart and judge you on

but it's a very strange thing because I know that for me and for so many other fat folks that exist on the internet, it just really comes down to fat phobia and the fact that people don't see larger-bodied individuals as worthy of having respect. And we're not allowed to take care of ourselves. We're not allowed to suffer. We're not allowed to experience things that they don't feel like we should be allowed to experience like eating disorders like love like intimate partnerships like could just keep going like loving ourselves they don't think that we're deserving of any of that so you know it really comes down to to that and it sucks it sucks that people um you know put their put their hatred of themselves onto everybody else but i feel really grateful like i don't

want to be negative. It is a heavy topic, but I feel immensely grateful. I never thought my life was going to take the path that it has. And for it to be at this chapter in my life, it feels really good because I know that it's helping a lot of people. So it's honestly been a blessing being diagnosed. Yeah. And I do think you're talking about it is so important as well because eating disorders have kind of become synonymous with like a very thin, a very thin young white girl. And that just isn't the case. Like eating disorders don't discriminate. And, you know, reducing it down to that is it does such a disservice for people living in larger bodies who struggle with eating.

At some points with my eating disorder, I didn't fit the criteria of like underweight on the BMI, but only just. But still, that had a huge impact. on me thinking that I wasn't sick enough. So for people who are in, you know, you know, who are bigger, it must be really just very difficult to believe that you deserve the help that you need. Yeah. I mean, you know, one statistic that has stayed with me through all of this recently is that 95% of folks that suffer from anorexia are not in emaciated bodies. so that means that the other 5% is what we've categorically seen like you were describing but 95% of us don't look like that and you know I just think for so many people and myself included I just

never saw it as a possibility so it's just never something that I sought help for and it's really difficult to not feel validated when you're going through this stuff because eating disorders for so many of us are shameful and something that we deal with different stages of. And for some of us, it's embarrassing. And, you know, it's not something that you want people to know because they instantly judge you. And then anytime you're around those people eating or whatever, I think to myself personally, like, I wonder if because I'm eating, they're judging me because they know I don't and they know I struggle and I sometimes find myself this is something I've been working on like explaining to people, you know, oh, well, I haven't eaten.

But then it's kind of like glorifying my eating disorder in a different way by and also feeling like I need to to prove myself. But it's just because, you know, that's how that's how it's been since I came out. obviously it's hard to talk about. I really appreciate that it must be hard. Well, I really appreciate that you are opening up about it because it is such an unfair thing that you have to do in that nobody else would ever have to defend a diagnosis

of any kind of illness. And it's a very unusual situation that we're in this. But I guess talking about fat phobia earlier, it is in the medical community as much as any other. And I wonder, like, and you don't have to answer this at all if you don't want to, but how it was how you came to be diagnosed or how you came to know that you wanted to look for that sort of support and if it was easy to find. It was a virtual conference. I don't remember the name of it, but it was like two years ago, three years ago, there were like five different people. And so Anna was one of the panelists on there. And we. were just kind of sharing our experiences, and this was all over Zoom. And then after the conference,

I was really impressed by Anna, and it was really nice hearing, because she, she specializes with eating disorders. And it was really nice hearing her perspective. And it was like really refreshing because I hadn't heard anyone really discuss eating disorders in that way. But at the same time, I wasn't really in that space. Like, it wasn't really on my radar. until that conference. And so after I started following her on Instagram and I followed her for, I don't know, a couple months. And there was just something in me that was like, maybe you have an eating disorder.

But I thought that it was overeating because I'm fat. And that was just in my brain like, oh, maybe I need to talk to somebody and figure this out. So I reached out to her. And I said, hey, you know, I don't know if you take on clients or because we've, met. I don't know if you're able to. And she said, sure, you know, we, I'm open to talking to you. And, you know, it was very quick into us talking that, um, I was sitting on my kitchen counter right behind me. I always tell this story because I remember exactly where I was because when she said

the words and she didn't, there's a lot of people are like, she can't diagnose. And I tell the same thing every time. She can't. She basically said, if I could diagnose you with an eating disorder, it would be with an it would be anorexia nervosa. And she said, but you need to talk to somebody and you need to follow up with somebody. And then that's what I did. And then when they confirmed it, it wasn't, I kind of already knew because when Anna had basically told me, it hit me like a ton of bricks. I started doing my research. When I got my second opinion, I just thought to myself, like, all right, you know, I guess it is what it is, but I was in very deep denial for quite some time after, like, and very embarrassed because I thought, great, there's one more

thing that people are going to talk shit about. It's a long list when you hear my name, but it yeah yeah i'm like great it's very confronting to receive a diagnosis and then you have to like process that and somehow like not attach that label to you but like associate that label to you when it was never previously associated and that is quite yeah yeah i don't know why you know because it's like you know we always talk about how mental health is so important but i think people talk about it lot without actually giving space for people that are suffering with a lot of these things silently, you know, and I learned that firsthand because, you know, when people do find out or maybe don't know or if I share it with somebody, I'm always waiting to like see the same

look on their face. And it hasn't happened a lot, but it's happened often enough where people kind of look at me confused. And then you think to yourself, great, now any credibility I had is gone because these people think I'm ridiculous now. And I've really, it's honestly helped me so much, like, kind of develop a thicker skin. And it's really helped me not care because it's part of me. And, you know, it's a part of me that I'm treating. with grace and patience and kindness because all the other things didn't work. So, yeah. It's interesting that you say that about, I think people are fun.

Well, people are weird, but on social media, it's like they put you, what women specifically are put into a box quite early. And I guess what's really interesting is like watching people grow up online and or not even grow up, but just grow online. you know to so many people you became I guess like the Cosmo cover is like probably like one of the most iconic and amazing and that's like kind of where you like

burst into everybody's psyche and I guess that's kind of it's the point where you burst out that is kind of where you stay and it's like you get a bit immortalised and trapped and that's you and any growth that happened subsequently is I think that you've got the added thing of like having to grow in front of people

and then prove that you're growing because everybody's put you in a box somewhere else and that's kind of where they want to leave you because it's easier there and you don't get a lot of space I feel I don't know if you know Matt Haig the author and I just see him he's talking about his like current mental health

struggles and it's been so amazing to like watch him go through it in real time but it's actually really unusual because normally people speak about things when they're healed and they can speak retrospect but I actually think it's mad that we do it in front of people and grow like this in front of people and it is amazing and it will be so I mean as painful as I'm sure it is for you at times

and frustrating and you must want to whack your head against the wall like it's going to be so educational for so many people and so empowering and inspiring for young people following you I yeah I hope so because that one of my exes um they're their their communities so they used to always think they were funny but they weren't but they would always like pick on me for being like they're like oh are you crying online again and I'm like okay yeah I do cry online I'm a cancer I can't help it oh same yeah I can't help it we just yeah I love to cry and I'm I've cried online twice today just I'm sending you love you need it you too You know, when my cover blew up, it was, you know, I had been working for years before, right?

But that was obviously a big moment. And it was 2018. 2019 was the biggest year of my career. And then we all know what happened in 2020. And there were so many things planned in 2000. Like, I had so many things planned. And then all of those plans kind of fell off. And then, and I'm going somewhere with this.

And then, you know, I very much went through this identity crisis where I was like, that's it. That's the end of my career. No one cares about me. The industry is shifting. You know, the models that we're seeing are like now smaller plus size models. Like, you know, in my head, I was like, things are changing. Things are changing. And then I was kind of confronted with that on top of a divorce.

on top of, you know, being a single mom again and an eating disorder. And because it was the pandemic, I was so grateful that I could, like, hide out. But I'm also very grateful that I've been transparent my entire career because it really gave me a chance to, like, choose to share my healing in front of everybody. And I don't know. I sometimes get embarrassed because I think I wonder what people think of me, you know, too much and how I'm perceived. And, you know, I hope that it's not as a crybaby or a know at all. But I just hope that people can see that like I genuinely care and I really do feel like,

you know, I was given these opportunities to help other people maybe not, maybe not suffer in the ways that I've suffered. I just, as a fellow cancerian, and you're probably sick to death of talking about it, but I actually don't know how I'd have coped under this pressure. So I just want to ask how you did. When the Cosmo thing blew up, it was so cool, but it was also, like some of the rhetoric that surrounded it was so gross

and so toxic and so horrible. If you're a sensitive person, which we know, know that you are because of your July, Julyness. How did you cope with that? Well, on top of the cover, I was also in an abusive relationship and nobody knew. I mean, my inner circle very much knew. My team knew. I was literally on the verge of losing everything.

Like, my life was falling apart. And I, that cover honestly gave me my confidence back. I felt like I had kind of lost it in a sense. And the reason I got, the reason I got that cover was because I spoke, I, not many people know this, but I spoke at a conference for the Cosmo put on in the UK. And I flew over for it. And, you know, I think that I never turned opportunity. down if it's I'm not money driven is what I'm saying sometimes I should be but I'm not I'm more

driven on like opportunities you know and connections like what we're all having I think that there's a lot of magic and in things like that and I definitely say yes more than I said no and so with the conference with Cosmo I was like you know I'm not really making money but it's an experience and I'll get to see my friends and when I went there I connected with the editor and And she was so enamored with my story, her words, not mine, that she was like, I have to put you on a cover. And I was, I couldn't believe it. But it was at a very volatile time in my relationship and a very important time in my career

where the people in my life couldn't really, they couldn't show up for me anymore without my mess bleeding on to them. Do you know what I mean? And I don't mean to diminish like, you know, abuse and make it sound like it's your fault or it's, you know, like I use the word mess, but it's just like it got to a point where it was bleeding on everything. And Cosmo, it was hard to hear everybody saying this stuff, but to be honest, it was one of the best experiences of my life.

and a moment for me where I realized that I could do all of this, like, without having somebody pull me down and I could stand on my own. So, yeah, people talk shit, Pierce Morgan talked shit, everybody talked shit. But that cover went on to win cover of the year. It was, you know, by the British press. And, you know, um, fuck them. people really and I'm going to use I'm going to embarrass myself by trying to use

this as a verb but I've seen it on TikTok so I'm going to try it people really deeped it I didn't do I use it right no you did not use that right I didn't I've never heard anyone use that that's so embarrassing what did you do it deep deeped it like they went too deep with it they were they got all deep with it I swear I get I got what you're I don't know what you're saying.

Look, I swear, Gen Z are using that as a verb, okay? I believe you. You know, I, not to chew my own horn, but as most things I've done in my career, they've always been a little bit ahead of their time. And, you know, I've been fortunate to, you know, walk beside so many other amazing folks that have been trailblazers in my industry. And I'm immensely grateful that I have been a part of. of that. But yeah, it's when all of it's happening to me, I don't really, like you were asking,

how do I not crumble? And then I went on a tangent about my personal life. But I was just giving context to like why I should have been crumbling. But in that moment, I, and like every moment, you know, I threw a party for myself when Cosmo came out and I never celebrated any of my successes before. I never stopped. Like I had other covers before that. And I was having to, happy, but I was always like, okay, what's next? What's next? And when Cosmo happened, I was like, I want a cake with my cover on it. I invited my closest friends. I wore the dress that I wore inside, you know, the magazine before I had to give it back. And, um, you know, I, I had my moment and I soaked it in and I didn't care when everybody was saying because life is so fucking

short and we literally only get one chance. And to be honest, I didn't really give a fuck that people were saying how gross I was because I got to be on the cover of Cosmopolitan. So, you know, anytime they say anything, I would just think, like, where's your cover? What a comeback? I actually really want to know, has Pierce Morgan ever been on the cover of a magazine?

He hasn't, but he just asked me to be on his show again recently, like literally two months ago. I don't know who he was debating or talking to. I don't know if I had done something that had blown up I don't know because like TikTok thousands and thousands of things go viral each day so it's like you know who knows news is so fast now but yeah he asked me to be on to talk to him and

you know I'm like it's not worth $2,000 I think that's what he offers every time to bring me on or $5,000 I don't know but it's just not it's not worth it because you know yeah it would be everywhere but I don't know it's I don't he sucks he doesn't deserve your energy why would you he's did no he's been so dehumanizing yeah so rank and I find this it actually happened with Cosmo a bit later I don't know if you saw it in the UK after your cover like a couple of years later yeah and they had the amazing Callie thought was on the cover and sov

butler and yeah yeah and the fucking it it annoyed me so much with that because, I mean, I think particularly as well, because it was, they were focusing around health and there were so many Pierce Morgans, but then just like internet Piers Morgans, like these like Jim Bros. And it's like, this isn't how, this isn't how, it's like, I'm not being funny. But this is a woman's magazine. These are women posing from women's magazine. I know. Why do you, what, butt out? Like, butt out. Imagine Holly Willoughby kicking off about the cover of GQ like she just wouldn't give a shit like she just wouldn't and it's just mad yeah it's just it's very strange it's very strange I saw all of that

because I definitely like chimed in um you know when that was happening because you know I know cali and in jessamine and um it's just it's stupid people um people have too much time on their hands and they also don't want to admit that they're attracted to fat people so whatever that's really what it comes down to they just want to have sex with us and they are pissed about it so they get mad oh my god you take this money and just go and tell him that yes i have told i did well i did tell him that on twitter when i was even using twitter but when cosmo happened and he was just going on and on about my health i said i don't know man it just feels like you're kind of like are you into me and you're trying to fuck

And then he was like, I, you know, I don't know. I don't even know what he said. The tweets are so up. But it was funny. I enjoyed that. I bet he was predictably defensive. Well, yeah. And he was just like, oh, you know, he was just very like, oh, that's not the point.

Like, he was just, I don't know, he was like, you know, you're a bad influence to, you know, the English community. It's funny, though, a lot of people think that I'm from England. like they think that I'm British. There are so many people that think that I'm British. And I think that it's because I've had a lot of successes like that were in England because even though as a country I, which England is my favorite and London is my favorite city in the whole world. And then my friends that live there.

Thanks. Sometimes my friends that live there are like, why? But London is just, I don't know, I will live there. I will spend my time there. one day I'm going to like split my time between both but um I say all that to say that um England's not you guys aren't always like the most like progressive in some ways but in this realm you guys I feel like have always done things before America as far as like plus ice folks and I think it's just because you guys aren't afraid to to kind of stir the pot whereas America we pretend

that you know we're proper and we're not touching on like progression in this area and especially in the area of like fat phobia and the treatment of fat people which as we know historically and you know still is you know despicable but do you think that we're moving in the right direction and do you think fat phobia is becoming less commonplace what are your thoughts on that or is it hard to like gauge that when we're in it? I do think that we are definitely moving in a direction. I don't know if it's like the right direction because, you know, we're still only seeing, you know, the same handful of plus size models on every single high fashion runway. There's still really no body diversity, you know, with the exception of like a couple designers.

maybe each season but last year it was the least diverse um runway season like i don't want to say ever but in a very long time like last year took so many steps backwards so i don't know and it's like if i'm gauging it on that but are we seeing more brands use um not just plus size folks but you know because i've always i've always championed for like i want all kinds of diversity i want non-able body and I want different races and different gender identities and you know the whole spectrum we all deserve to be represented so are we seeing more of that yeah and it's it's super awesome but as far as just plus size I don't know I think the people could do more and I still think that it's way to tolerate it in so many of our spaces whether that's you know movies comedy

you know any kind of real platform where you're consuming media there's still so much fat phobia and it runs rampant on everything you know from the diet culture especially in America to how we talk about fat bodies there's still so much acceptance for things that should not be accepted so I just really think until those things change it's going to take a long time for it to shift to where we're seeing it in fashion it was it was weird the runways of last year it was so strange because I thought that we had come way too far to ever go back and I thought going backwards wouldn't be tolerated but it was crazy it was like it was this like as undiverse as non-diverse as ever it's crazy yeah and and look I love Paloma I love precious um

Yumi is great, you know, all of these girls that, you know, are coming up, they're great, they're beautiful, but they all are. And I mean, again, they're representing different ethnicities. And I think that that is so needed. And that like makes my heart so happy. It's just they all have similar body types. And that is a body type that still needs representation, but it's just the same body type that we've seen perpetuated, which is the good, what people call like the good plus, which is like super tall, flat stomachs, toned bodies. And I understand that they're models, but like it's just not the reality still for so many plus size people. So I love them. I just wish that there were just, you know, different body types. And I think we'll

eventually get there hopefully so yeah and i do think as well like i think a lot of people mistake this call for more diversity is oh like skinny shaming or you're against thin people um i don't know if you see a lot of that but i see a lot of that and i'm like it's quite clear that what we're asking for what what everyone is asking for is diversity because of course we want to see everyone represented skinny thin people as well like that's important but at the moment we only see that so you know i live i'm only speaking on my perspective i think because i live in a larger body i think that people just automatically think what i'm talking about loving myself that that means fat people only and it's not it's just that you know we haven't had a voice for as long we haven't had a platform

people haven't taken us seriously so you know i just want people to see bodies that are different than theirs, larger than there's, whatever. However, however people choose to represent themselves, I just wish that you're not going to respect us. I know that that's not going to happen. But like, I don't know, man, just tolerate us or just do your own thing and let other people do their own thing. But, yeah, it's weird.

Sometimes I feel like, I feel like my answer now is just, it's weird. because it is. It's just stupid. It's like it's just so stupid that we have to even talk about this. It's like it's my body. Why do you care? Even if I was sitting around eating McDonald's 50 times a day like people say and chain smoking 10 pack of cigarettes at a time. I don't smoke cigarettes. But so even if I was doing all of those things like why do you care? Yeah, exactly. It's like it's so weird. It's like when you peel it back, I mean, it's so obvious why people care because it is, it's, what, why men care and then why women care and women care because the men care because they're not controlling you. And if in a society that wants everybody to be smaller, to stand up and proudly say, I don't want to be that, is a direct attack on the patriarchal foundations of which we all exist. So, but it's so embarrassing. Actually, when you look at it like that, but they're so triggering. Oh, no. Like, you're so insecure.

I'm so embarrassed for you. Like, yeah, nothing cringes me more. I agree. And I just wish that that energy would go into, you know, helping houseless folks and mental health and prioritizing other things, at least speaking in my country, but in general, prioritizing other things instead of it's just like people are just focusing their energy on the wrong thing and um i don't know i think that they all just think that they're going to you know save us from ourselves but really they're doing more damage than harm um because it's been

scientifically proven that people aren't receptive to being bullied shocker and people are going to lose weight because you're yelling and screaming at them and telling them how disgusting they are you know so who knew yeah shocker weird that's weird so weird so yeah I know what we're calling this episode weird so weird so weird oh deeping God I'm glad that's great I still am not on board with that but I support you thank you thank you I'm now because we've talked about it it's going to be all over our TikTok algorithm I wanted to ask you about TikTok you said before you were so good do you do you use it and if so how do you find the comments and the community like how do you find existing on tic talk um you know my following i don't know i have like under a million

followers um when i first got on tech talk i was verified i was verified uh because you know like i was verified and everything else so they verified my page and I remember my first video blew up and it was just me at like a party in a sequin dress. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I didn't understand TikTok but there were so many people like comment it because it's an entirely different platform with like a very specific audience. I think everyone uses TikTok now but in the beginning I felt like it was mostly for kids and people were like who is this fat whale? Why is she verified? I'm not verified because a lot people didn't know who I was and that's fine but I really found it funny because you know I think

I was so used to like the platforms that I existed on. I have a following people you know knew what I was about and then moving to TikTok it humbled me really quickly because people were trolling me But then it's been really nice seeing so many people comment and say, you know, like, oh, you know, I've, I followed you when I was in high school and you changed my life. And I haven't seen you since then because they, the only form of social media they were using was TikTok. And I don't know. It was nice connecting with people that way, but taking it out of just like that context and back into just generally. TikTok has been probably the most fun that I've had on a platform, and I really enjoy connecting with people in that way. People are really mean, but they're mean everywhere. But I definitely

get way more joy out of TikTok, and I learn so much from my followers and just even scrolling through it. So it's probably the app that I spend the most time on. I'm not a dancer. I'm not a musician. I just exist and I'm fat and I'm cute so sometimes I go on TikTok and I'm like I don't know what to do but that's the magic of it you just do whatever and you know it's so it's helped me care about

social media less like in a good way in like a yeah so yeah it's less deep stuff it stuff it I've literally never one of my friends is here right now

that's like younger than me so i'm going to have to ask her after like have you heard of this because i never have she's going to say no because i've made that up but i'm going to proper deep it now and you don't have to answer this question because it's a big one but how how are you with your body now where are you at with your body now you mentioned before about loving yourself like is that where you're at or is it up and down it's sometimes that sometimes not that I don't know, you know, my, it's, I want to talk about it more, but I just feel like I talk about so many different things that I don't, I don't know if I'm ready to like talk about it online. I can talk about it here because it feels safe, but aging is a bitch, you know, getting older is, will, will for sure humble you if TikTok doesn't first. And it's really strange being a model and having the last decade of my life being photographed, either by myself or by my work.

And, you know, people tag me in things all the time at different stages of my body and my life. And so it's a kind of, I get daily reminders of how much my body has changed. and evolved. And then when you add the eating disorder on top of it, my body dysmorphia has been like not cute the last couple years. I would say where I'm out with my body now is I'm starting to accept it for the ways that it's changing because of age, because of healing. And I haven't been at a good place with it and that's part of why you know people are like god you never you don't post like sexy picks as much as you used to because i was really known for like always being half naked and that's not your girl as much anymore because you know my body's changed and that's okay

um by it's definitely taken me a lot of work to like re-familiarize myself with with who i am now but I'm like happier than ever so that's kind of weird to be to kind of be not familiar with my body as much but like I'm just so happy that I care less and I care less to talk about it and I care less to document my body I just you know I just want people to know that I'm beauty and brains I'm just kidding yes you are I'm more than my body, guys. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having me.

This was so much fun. And I've been coming out of my podcast shell. I was kind of saying no to everything because I don't know. I was like, nobody wants to hear for me. Nobody cares. So it's been nice. It's been fun. Oh, then we're very honored that you did this.

Thank you so much. Thanks for deeping it with us. Oh, fuck off. Honestly, I'm going to make all... Just because we've had to live through this trauma together, I'm going to make all of us matching T-shirts. That's just saying... Teething it.

Yeah. It could be a hashtag. I don't know. It actually sounds like horribly inappropriate. Yes. It really does. Yeah. I didn't think about that. It does.

There you go. You're welcome everyone. That's on brand for you. Thanks to be so Fulgar and lowering the tone out. Oh, all right. well thanks so much to us it was lovely so nice hope we can deepen again soon should i delete that is part of the ACAS creator network