Should I Delete That? - Jameela Jamil on being a feminist in progress

Episode Date: January 24, 2022

It’s a biggie this week! Em and Alex chat to none other than Jameela Jamil about the portrayal of women in the media. Jameela recounts her own experiences of being demonised online, and reflects on the ways that women have been taught to tear each other down. She talks about her attempts to buck this trend, and her mission to make I Weigh a non-judgmental space in which people can learn and grow. On top of all this, Em shares the difficulties of wedding-planning as a feminist, and Alex confesses to a Candy Crush addiction...@jameelajamil@i_weighFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by MindlerMindler is an online therapy app, offering video call sessions with psychologists. Self-help programmes are also available in the app, covering a range of diagnoses.https://bit.ly/3Kvof4r Produced & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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that's D-E-L-E-T-E you can get one free session. Oh my God, why did I post that? Ah, I don't know what to do. Should I delete that? Yeah, you should definitely delete that. Welcome back to the podcast. We are recording today from Alex's house and what is to my left, ladies and gentlemen,

the drum kit. All of its glory. It's actually so ugly, isn't it? Yeah, it's a lot smaller than what I thought it was going to be because I really did imagine it like full rock star like on stage so did i yeah like but it's not it's electric but the downside to that is there are so many wires there are so many wires it's so ugly there is no way of making it look pretty and it's in the middle of our living room like there is no escape from it i'm so i want a drum solo later no no i need some time i need some time so i am i need

some beginners lessons i'm going to try and find some on the internet somewhere you can do it like you can link you can link your like your drum kit into your laptop but i spent about half an hour last night trying to understand what that even meant and then ended up just just before we get into the good and the bad and the awkward Alex and i have a WhatsApp group with her husband Dave and my boyfriend Alex and last night she sent a text to it forwarding an email that she'd sent to the customer helpline uh the technical support of the drum kit company. Hi there. I'm trying to connect my Elisa's Turbo mesh kit to Melodix, but I'm confused about where to start. Why? Why did you buy this? The page on your website

talks about connecting the USB, but I'm not sure what kind of wire that needs. Can you help? Thanks, Alex. I'm not sure what hardware means on the last it said like write your email and then it had a section at the end saying which hardware are you using

I was like what does hardware mean I don't fucking know these people that were literally the people that buy these drum kits will be drummers

they would never have expected a customer service email from somebody who's never I actually got a response from him today and he was basically like apologies

but I'm a bit confused aren't we all I'm a bit confused about what you're confused about so on that note should we do the the good and the bad and the awkward the good the bad

and the awkward so M what's your good I tell you what I was going to say my goddaughter got christened that was so nice I didn't drop her absolute stunning couldn't have gone better

that was all good and then just because I'm a stuck record and I'm just a woman fulfilling her role in the society I'm gassed about my forthcoming nuptials and I saw my wedding dress like I've I've been last minute.com but I not literally www www.com so do wedding dresses too yeah who knew um no so yeah I got the sort of like sketch design thing for my the amendments that we're doing to my wedding dress and that's made it all like it looks so good and show me just before we started this, it looks so good. I'm definitely not supposed to show you people my wedding dress, but then when you were getting married to you

you were so chilled that you were like, do you want to see my dress? I was like, yeah, go on then and then I just felt bad so I was like, well, you know, you showed me yours, I'll show you mine. I showed anyone who asked me really because I just thought it doesn't really matter, you know, I don't really get the whole like got to save it for the day because who really cares? Well, actually I find this so, like the whole thing about weddings so interesting.

Like I know I keep joking about like my role as a woman in a wedding but I'm literally just like it's all linked. There's patriarchal bullshit. Like it's just ridiculous. Like we're going to wear white because we're virgins. And we're hidden underneath a veil because the chances are like your man marrying you didn't just got your, like, it's like your groom just has your dad's word on it that you're not hideous.

Like, and obviously he's going to say that you're stunning because he's trying to sell you or exchange you for a fucking pig or whatever it is. Like a nice, I don't know, suckling pig or what? It's just a load of nonsense. But anyway, I'm thriving. I'm loving it. yeah I'm like I'm tick deep in all this misogyny it's great and that's the thing that was that when I was like when I was like going through all the planning and stuff

there were so many things that I was like oh if I let this this could really piss me off like the fact that it's only men who are supposed to stand up and talk like during and do the speeches like I begged my sisters I've got four sisters I begged them to do a speech too but they were like sorry we'd be too nervous they said he said like we'll we'll record it and play it and I was like do you know how stupid that's gonna look record it while you're sat right there like just watching it like I'm not going to do that but you can let yourself like I felt like like I could let myself get pissed off about stuff like that or just lean into it and I ended up just

leaning in and being like it is what it is like this is a thing as well like I didn't I actually wrote about this when we when when we got engaged about like basically challenging my feminism to plan a wedding and it was like even the notion of like being given away and stuff is so like it is it's actually coconuts and we talked about it last week like oh we're going to change our surnames and those people on on Instagram were like well to be fair like okay yeah you're going to take that man's name but you already have a man's name you know most of us already have our dad's name so like you've never oh my god that's never occurred to me you never had your own name anyway you know Alex actually has his mum's name which I love so maybe that makes sense but you know

so but you know as a strident feminist you want to make all these like changes and have all your boundaries but what you have to remember is everybody else has an expectation of your wedding day too and like in my family I'm the eldest daughter like it's Alex's mom like Alex is an only child like and he's religious and there's just so much of it that matters so much to other people and I've been trying to weigh up like how much what matters to me matters compared to what matters to them and just try and strike a balance for sure and also like I think it depends on exactly you pick your battles what you feel really strongly about but also like it's one day and one event like really what matters is how like your everyday you know how you like you act upon

your morals and values like every day it doesn't you know you don't have to to have a completely, you know, a wedding that completely like, you know, um, counters all norms. Like, that's not necessary. Like, just whatever you feel comfortable with. Yeah. In the end, I just thought, I can't be bothered. And also, like, white dresses, like, they're stunned.

Like, yeah, they are. Like, it's a, I don't know, there's a lot of it. It's like, okay, look, if I, if I think too much about it, I can make this fucking awful or I can just lean in and be like, all right, pretty dresses, like, yeah, I'll make these women all wear the same outfit and walk. down the aisle and I'll cover my face and when would you ever wear white again well people do wear white dresses but like I would never wear a white dress and also really the only opportunity that I have to wear nice dresses is to wedding exactly and you're not going to wear a white dress

no right so fine I've got a nice white okay we've dealt with that I'm still a feminist but I'm gonna I'm gonna wear white and play the part and I'm gonna look it's gonna be great but I guess like this leads into like a much bigger conversation doesn't it and one that kind of came up last week when you posted like you did a hair ad and then people were like you're supposed to be a feminist. Oh yeah. Well that's it's like you know what people expect of a feminist or what people expect of feminism and it has to be this like all or nothing. Yeah. Like totally non-newance like it's black and white and I think it's just it's really harmful for feminism. Yeah I so I did a hair ad last week. I did it. It was an ad that you know it was just it was just it was like doing my hair.

Yeah and it was cool. I liked it. I like watching it. Yeah. My hair looked good. Thank you very much. bit like got to the end of it and I had so many DMs being like I thought you were above all this shite and I was like no I have hair like just because I just because I care about feminism doesn't mean I have to have shit hair and such a degrading view of feminism isn't it like all feminists are ugly and can only care about politics and everybody else and it's also really damaging to other women like women that do care about how they look it's insinuating that then they're failing as feminist right exactly sorry just because I care about my hair I'm vacuous and moron It's like women have one brain cell And we could only focus it on one thing at any given time And if I'm just filling everybody's head with hair products Then I'm really letting the side down Because it's such a joke It's like with makeup

Like I always feel like I have to justify my love of makeup By saying oh it's because it's like creative And I enjoy it, it's therapeutic for me And it's you know It's an expression self-expression But then like why can't I also say I actually love how it looks on me I love putting it on and I love wearing it

makeup and that's that. It doesn't make me any less of a feminist. You can be, you know, you can be a feminist and like, you can be a feminist and shave your legs and say that you shave them because of the patriarchal, you know, because of the patriarchal history. You can, you can admit that and still be a feminist. Yeah. 100%. There's so many things that I do that I do directly because the patriarchy dictates that I should. But I can still rebel against it with my smooth legs and wax vagina and good eyebrows. Exactly. Yeah. Rebell against it in our own ways and what we feel comfortable with and it's all like a learning curve isn't it people just need to chill out anyway you go what's your good i feel like the good every week like i'm not you know

some weeks we don't have this like amazing like dazzling shiny like good stuff um so my good is like super banal like so boring going to be like why have you even said that but you know in the interest of like finding the joy in the little things so i work in my living room and i'm not like I'm really bad at like getting up and like going out and doing stuff. Like I sit down and I don't move all day because I just get locked into work and anyway I was like I just spent a whole like two weeks pretty much in the house and I was like I'm going to take myself off to a coffee shop and work for the day and it was the best day I've had in so long.

It was so blissful. I felt like I felt like I had energy like the energy of just people being around me and just feeling like I felt really like revived and uplifted and I know that sounds so like wonky but it was my good because at the end of the day I was like oh my god I feel rather than like oh I'm going to move from like the you know my my desk to the sofa and like watch a bit of something before I go to bed I felt like that was a really good day and I just needed to get out yeah so that's that's my good that's why I do walk club every morning like I walk with my friend's face and then sometimes georgie joins us I'll join sometimes you're very welcome down I have no friends here

But I made, I literally, I'm aged. I know. Literally, I don't know anyone here. But that's also my fault as well because I'm unsocial. Because you don't get off of the desk chair. Literally. But it's like, I think it's really important with the, we talked about this a few episodes ago, but with the boundaries of work from home, like, you know, I know you've always

worked from home, but the boundaries are really like dissipating between work and home. Oh my God. So shit. The lines are blurring. Like, it's crazy. You do need, like, that's why I go out walking every morning. Yeah. So I felt like I've been with colleagues at least.

You know, even though we don't, you know, do much. It's just gifting out. I'm envious of that, actually. I think that's really good. Okay, I'll start getting you up at 6.30. If we just live so far away, it's so annoying. I could come to you one day. Okay, thanks.

I'll go for a walk, early morning walk. 6.30, no. No. Sorry, that just dawn on me what you said, absolutely not. 830, yeah, 630, no. Okay. So, what's your bad? So, it isn't kind of a good, in a good way.

But my face is sore. So I had an operation last February to break and reset my jaw. To be honest, I've just had so many complications subsequently. Namely, so when they break my, when they broke my jaw, they reset it with screws and plates all the way along the top and the bottom. And two of the screws have come loose to the right of my nose. So one of the screws has, I don't really understand. So I saw the surgeon before Christmas and he told me that the best course of action is to have these screws and this plate removed.

And I handled it with great maturity and pretended I hadn't heard anything. I did not reply to his emails or return his phone calls. Everybody asked when the surgery was and I said, what surgery? I don't know. Sand meat head. Yeah, literally. And I've been kind of like limping on. It's not genuinely, I think it's, I think the cold makes it a lot.

worse and it's been very cold and I've just I have now got to the point of pain that is just more than I can cope with it's driving me insane and I've had enough so yesterday I emailed the surgeon explained and apologised um and they've actually brought the surgery forwards so I will be having it in two weeks time and it will be and it's fucking stunning it'll be literally a year on nearly to the day from the last surgery and I'm dreading it but also what a time to start a podcast just before I lose the use of my mouth again. I know, I know, it'll be fine.

We'll make it work, we'll make it work. But it's really important that you have it. And I'm always like, I'm always a proponent for like if you can just get it done like sooner rather than later. Like the sooner you do it, just get it done and get it out the way and basically not to bang on about my fucking wedding again because I never shut up about it. But with that around the corner, I kind of,

I was saying to my mum, I was like, if I can just go till next winter, you know, if it's only a problem when it gets cold, getting warm and maybe I'll be fine and then I started reading the forums which I never do but I was like I genuinely don't know anybody else in this position and my brother actually has a lot of metal in his back and he is bothered by that but so we've been talking about it a bit but I'm like I don't know anybody with it in their face so I was looking on the forums and stuff and a few people have said that the screws can work their way out totally and I was like fuck that for a game of spades if I'm gonna look at really pretty in that white dress I can't have a fucking screw stick. I'm looking out my cheek. Wharf. I, on the, one of my Instagram followers had it come out their gum and then I got a pain in the roof of my mouth the other day and I was like, you know what, I just can't play this.

I can't play this game of what if. Like I can't live with that like waking up one morning and there's just a lump somewhere would just be too annoying and I would kick myself because it would be 150,000% my own fault for having not dealt with it. So I'm just, I'm just, it's fine. Yeah, bring it on. And we'll make the podcast work somehow, even if it's just sort of mumbling. I said it last time when I had the operation.

Like, if you don't laugh, you cry. And like, so I'm like, I'm already looking forward to the laughs. Like, I know that sounds really stupid. But in a really weird sort of way last time, it was fun. And not, it was horrible. Yeah. But there's just, uh, there's an element of like when you, when you really have to like push through some shit.

I'm just like, okay. Let's go. Yeah. Like, ha, ha. What was your bad this week? Um, Well, we've kind of covered my bad, but it's the fucking drum kit. Like, I'm actually pissed off at myself because I ordered it, right?

I ordered it when I was like super into it, like super committed, like super keen on it. And then it took ages to come. And then I took ages to set it up. And it's still not even set up. And it requires fucking USB cables and hardware, software, shitware. I don't fucking know. And I know I can feel my interest in it, just slowly dying. It's not pretty.

You know, you're not drawn to it. It's ugly. You're not drawn to be like, oh wow, I want to go and make some noise on that. I know. It's so ugly. And like,

and now I'm thinking like, what the hell am I going to do with it? And I can't tell Dave. I think you need to join the pub. I do. And he's just something to like lock me into it. I can't tell Dave. No, because he said before I said like,

are you sure about this? So I was just like, I'm absolutely sure. This is going to be the best thing ever. I just think we remember and I don't know if it is saved anywhere, but in the last episode you were, you were going to be a drum star. No, and I really, I thought I really did think I was going to be.

But then I'm like, part of me, like, this is very funny and everything, but part of me is actually pissed off at myself because, like, why did I do that? Like, why did I do these things? I don't know. I hate, like, I make these, like, rash decisions, like these rash buys. I know it's not funny. It's like so impulsive. And then I'm left with, like, a 250-pound drum kit.

Like, the most horrible eyesore I've ever seen in our living room. And like, you know, we've got a piano. We've only got a piano. We've got a piano. Well, I tell you they have squished the instruments in here. Yeah. You really are. There will be a viola next.

That's what I'm going to get you for your birthday. I do play that, actually. Oh, fuck up. Well, I'm just like you play the drums. I know. Actually, I did all my grades in viola, but I can't play anymore. Wow. Well, that's cool.

Yeah, but I can't play anymore. Okay. So don't buy me a viola. I do not need another instrument. I actually, I agree. For the first time, I really agree. you don't need anything else in here. There's not room.

There is no room. So, yeah, I hope you enjoyed my... There's a small space in the corner. My humble brag there. She did, oh, my grey. I played the viola once. And my mum's like, we rented it from school because my mum was like, I'm not buying you that.

So we didn't rent it from school. We rented it from somewhere because she's like, I'm not buying you an instrument that, no offence, you'll probably be shit at. And I had one go. And she was like, I knew it. You have not a musical bone in your body. Not one.

And it's... on awkward awkward what's your awkward well this this isn't it but i just feel like i'd be remiss not to mention it this morning i went to the gym and um i walked home and then i realized when i got home that i'd driven to the gym so i had to go back and get it that's just like personally awkward it didn't involve anyone else like it's just like i'm a fucking knob but also it happened in the gym this week and um did i mention that go to the gym um but i've made a new friend and she's really great and she's really nice and like and I kept bumping into her in the same gym class and then like she's really great um and I was excited because you know it's nice to make friends

if you don't like making friends that I like making friends so I was excited and um and then I got partnered with her again and it's like the fourth time I got partner with her okay and it was just like a weird coincidence we got partnered and I looked to her and I was like ha ha I'm stalking you and she went ha ha and I was like well not really and then there was like a ha ha and I was like well I did follow you to work a couple of times. Oh my God. Did you say that? She just looked at me and she was like, what?

I was like, no, I'm joking. And she was like, okay. And then I was like, okay. And that was, I was just, I was like, why? And then she asked for a new partner. Yeah, well, I did say it this morning and I, and she, she's kind of ran a bit. Sort of like a gentle, like a quick stride. No, she didn't.

Yeah, it's so bad. I was just like, why have I said that? That is awkward. Why is saying that? I have four times. So bad. So bad. She was like, okay.

I just felt really sorry for it. I was like, well, that's, yeah. I'm trying to put myself in her position, like, and imagining it. And I probably would be like, oh, that, yeah, that's fucking awkward. Yeah. I also just lean forwards when I talk.

Like, I'm quite like a keen person. It's just too much. And as I say, I was like, it's too much. Nose to nose with her. I followed you to work a few times. But also, she really told me where she lived, which was like nicer, but like the time before she'd,

she'd been like oh i just moved down there and i was like oh my best friend lives down there and like so you know what i mean like we're like whereabouts down there okay and the post goes what number and what times are you typically in oh yeah so that i just absolutely fuck that and i was just it was just so she might listen to this no no no okay i think she's got the restraining order now so she's actively avoiding me that is very awkward yeah I just absolutely fucked it so yeah I've lost my new friends you've lost a new friend

yeah I think I'm gonna have to change gyms you've got too many friends you could do it lose and if you're fine yeah I mean I've been saying it for a while I've been thinking about doing a call friend call oh my god we should do an episode about that at some point actually about friendships and breaking up friendships

100% 100% um you're awkward it's bit of a weird one right so I finish work at the end of the day and I like to watch something and play candy crush right so I watch something on the TV and I play candy crush Like, I've played Candy Crush.

It's one of, it's one of the obsessions that I have, like, that has really stood the test of time. Because, yeah, most of my other, like, obsessions have fallen by the wayside, but not Candy Crush. In fact, I've just opened in my app. I am on level 3,747. You're what? Yeah, 3,747.

Because it really helps me like, so I'm not good at it. The creators of Candy Crush are like, fucking help. They're making them just for you. They can't believe anyone's got this far. They're like, Jesus, we've got to stay. I know. And like, so, I don't know if you know this trick with Candy Crush. Like, I'm probably going to get, like, they're going to cancel me now, my subscription.

But if you, like, when you run out of lives, you only got five lives. Oh, my God, this is so boring. You've only got five lives. When you run out, you can, you can, um, fast forward. You can change the time and date on your phone. So then it thinks it's got five lives again, right? So I put my phone, I put my phone forward like a month and then change it back, you know? Okay.

And yeah. What? Yeah. Yeah, because then I get five lives and I can just go back. So when you look at your phone, you're like, oh, like, February the 4th. Yeah, but then I change it straight back. I always change it back like immediately. Huh.

Yeah. It's like a credit card, but with time. Exactly. Exactly. So I'm playing Candy Crush. I'm going back and forth with the time, whatever. Anyway, I was like, my eyes hurt of Candy Crush. Like, I've got to stop now.

This level. I'm not passing it. So naturally, as you do, I went to Instagram. And it just said, like, can't connect. And I was like, oh my god like obviously this is what we do like instagram's our entire career like that strikes fear straight into my heart but you've lost your job yeah like instagram's down shit shit shit what we're going to do and it was too late for like a couple people have access to my instagram account but it was too

they were asleep already so i couldn't ask them if they could log in so i was like this is it i'm absolutely screwed i went on twitter like his instagram down like i had dave googling searching anything i was literally running like up and down the hallway crying i was like this is gone my entire, I've worked so fucking hard for this and it's all gone, it's all completely gone. And then, like, I locked my phone and Dave was like, why does it say March and you're on your screen?

And I realized that, like, literally, I don't know how long it was later, but it was a significant amount of time that I was like, right, I'm going to have to do a CV now and, like, apply to stuff to, like, actually get a job. And I just, yeah, I turned my time too far forward and, yeah. Broke the system.

Broke the system. I have a, I've just found the text that you sent me at 2214 on Friday night. And the spelling mistakes make this relevant is Y, number zero, you, oh, you are, Insta down. And I reply going, don't think so. Also, with my panic, my spelling mistakes, what's Hoare P's N-I-J-G? I'm obviously panicked. as well that we've lost our trust and you go I can't get it on my phone and then I get another one three minutes later at 2219 panic over I changed the date on my phone so I could get more

candy crush lines and forgot to change it back and I didn't even reply I was like oh for fuck's sake scre jeal I we should post that that's good so yeah a half an hour in we've only done the first section but you'll still be here because you will want to hear from today's guest our next guest needs no introduction but we're going to give you on anyway the ultimate multi hyphener jamila jamil is an actress presenter and activist she has overcome a lot in her life most of which has been in the public eye which has come with significant scrutiny particularly from the press something jamila has openly spoken about particularly compelling was her instagram highlight title gaslighting which details the unfair treatment of women in the press.

Jamila has also built a brilliant community with her movement and social platform, IWay, which encourages women to value themselves beyond their appearances. Jamila is a self-confessed feminist in progress, and that's exactly why we want to talk to her. She's learning on the job, just like all of us, and we are really excited to be talking to her today.

So without further ado, here is Jamila. So we've introed you in on the podcast, and we mentioned your brilliant Instagram highlight about gaslighting and how women are treated in the media, which is something that we really wanted to talk to you about. And specifically, you detailed a process whereby women are set up essentially to be torn down. Can you just talk us through that? Yeah, it's a very specific system.

And I'd sort of observed it since I was a kid without really internalising it and just thought, well, that's normal. You know, basically a woman can only maintain good behaviour. for a year and a half and it's probably her fault that must have been my like internal misogyny and so when I became famous as I'm sure lots of different people who end up in this ridiculous scenario do they think well I'll do it differently I'll be better than those than those women before me and then you get into it and you're like oh no fuck the the system is rigged the game is rigged and so it's a very very precise machine where basically they pluck someone

who they can see is garnering some kind of attention for whatever reason they stick out, it might be the way that they look or their background or whatever project they're in, they pick that person, they elevate them above everyone else and then they start to hyperboise how amazing they are all the time, constantly just over-regging, like saying that she's more beautiful

than she is or she's smarter than she is or she's more talented or more stylish and everything becomes very hyperbolic in the descriptions around them and they start to really overexpose this person And so suddenly all you're seeing is this person everywhere, all the fucking time. And as the reader, you're like, Jesus Christ, how much press is this woman doing? Like, why is she in the headlines?

And often those aren't interviews that we're giving. There might be a tweet, reply that we've given to someone else, or something that's literally just been pulled out of the reporter's ass. And they've just used the term source with, you know, with the quotes around it. And they make up all kinds of shit about us. And so it seems like we are just constantly promoting ourselves, constantly putting ourselves out there we are self-obsessed

they start to take these hyperbolic headlines about us like saying how amazing we are and put these kind of slightly smug-looking smiling photographs of us as if we are agreeing with the headline that we have never consented to and by this point the audience is so fucking and the readers and the public are so sick of us they're like Jesus Christ this woman is relentless

that then we are in a prime position to be ripped to pieces and then in comes the minor mistake or the misunderstanding or the complete smear and lie about us and it travels like wildfire because our name has become very current and very relevant and also everyone's ready to get rid of this bitch I would be fucking sick of me

I was sick of the sight of my own face from what I saw you know the amount I saw of myself and I couldn't understand it like my publicists weren't even on my retainer like I wasn't I didn't even have anyone putting anything out there about me and yet I was constantly in the headlines. It was insane. And so then the fall comes, and it is spectacular, because since the beginning of time,

since Adam and Eve, there is something about our society that loves a disgraced woman, loves the theatre of a disgraced fallen woman, of the fallen angel. And then we tear to pieces, she either kills herself, wants to kill herself,

or just cancels herself and makes herself disappear because women are told from birth, to be liked and the most important thing is to be liked and approved of and believed. And if that goes away, your worth is diminished and therefore you should extract yourself from society because you have failed them. We do not have that. We don't have, we only have redemption stories for men. I always say that, you know, we don't give women the benefit of the doubt because we've spent it all on men. We have no benefit of the doubt left for women because we've given it all to men. And so once this woman is destroyed and has removed ourselves, boom, we just

move on to the next target. And I think the pattern was harder to see back in the day because it was kind of, you know, we'd had less celebrities. It was just harder to become a celebrity. And so it would happen once every five years. So it would be Jane Fonda and then Princess Diana or Marilyn Monroe. And so these were kind of like spaced out by five years. But now that you've got a celebrity a fucking second,

it's happening every single week. And so it's out of control. And now we're starting to see the pattern really clearly. And now I've lived the pattern. Now it's crystal clear to me and I understand what every woman's gone through and now I'm just determined to use whatever's left of the last bits of

success I have to warn everyone else that this is coming and to implore readers to not believe everything you read, especially about women in the media and to know that our interviews are taken completely out of context. They reconstruct sentences out of entire paragraphs we say. Everything you see

is twisted and nulled through the lenge of misogy. So you say like that you could see, like you, you know, you kind of seen it since you were a child. But they did use this on you. Yeah. Like I wonder, were you able to clearly see what was happening? It would be like, this is happening.

Or is it something that came to you later? And if it was happening kind of before you could really put your finger on it, how did it make you feel? Was it just like horrifically isolating? Or, you know, did it affect your mental health before you could, you know, recognise it as a them problem rather than a you problem? I became a public. twice. So I had a bit of warning from what happened to me at 26 when the sort of British

media turned on me because I'd gained weight back in the day when I joined Radio 1. So I knew what that felt like, but to a much smaller degree because the UK so small compared to US news, which becomes global very fast. So I was kind of prepared when I got to America and when the hyperbole train was starting and everyone was like, she's the feminist hero we need. And I was like, I left school at 16. I don't know, fuck all. Like, please don't put this pressure on me. I'm a feminist in progress. And they'd be like, no, she's Gandy. She's motherfucking Gandhi. I knew I was, I knew I was fucked. Everyone, like, you know, I, like, in 2019, I was on the cover of Vogue. And in the same month, I was being named one of Time Magazine's

25 most influential people next to fucking, like, Harry and Megan and Donald Trump and Ariana Grande. And I was just like me off of T4 and Radio 1. It happened so fast. And I knew It was like that is that feeling at the top of like an Alton Towers ride where they just keep you at the top for a second. And you're just like, oh my God, just drop, just drop. Just please just let it be over with. Like I just, I know what's coming. And that's what that whole of 2019 felt like.

So when 2020 hit, I wasn't super surprised, but I didn't know how disgusting it would be. And I didn't know how much women would enjoy taking me to pieces. That was insane. It wasn't men. I thought it would be men. It was almost entirely women. And why do you think that women then are the ones that take most pleasure in that

and seeing other women being, you know, being torn down or taken down a peg? Well, I think because we're pitted against each other from the minute we can understand. We're told there can only be one. And we're told to compete with each other. And we're told that a one woman's achievements or one woman being special on the limelight means that we can't have that. And that's not fucking true. That's just a scarcity mindset put into us by men.

There's so many fucking men who look the same. they do the same shit they sound the same they act the same they sing the same dress the same and and we seem to just have endless space for all of them but there can only be this one woman so i think i think we have a and we i think we also just have a natural distrust of women because of how everything has been set up that way women are placed throughout biblical text throughout literature throughout film as the inconvenience for a man the one who manipulated the one who lied the one who beguiled a man and then led him astray it's just constant programming of like i don't trust her we don't trust women and we don't trust a woman who seems to be good or trying

to do the right thing we're like what's her angle here like there must be an angle and and i i think that's just training and i know i've had it fucking hell i was a massive misogynist until i was like 27 which is really old but you know it was a different time um And so, you know, it's just, we're all figuring it out. But also, you know, we just got to be trained to see the signs. Once you can see the signs, you see them everywhere. Look at Megyn Markle. Pregnant.

And our country ripped her to pieces. Taylor Swift, her documentary, so illuminating about the fact that you are really as a woman only allowed about a year at best of grace before your time is up. Jennifer Lawrence and Hathaway. Like, just the list just goes on. Amy Schumer. Kira fucking Knightley. yeah that's actually a really good point isn't it because not many women are forgiven for no men happen all the time men get given the GQ redemptive article like like like I mean

shyla buff is working right now I just saw a picture of him on set filming what the fuck are you are you kidding me emil hirsch working amil hirsch strangled my friend in front of hundreds of people and got like put in prison for it and is still working with eight list celebrities like we women wouldn't be allowed to do this shit if a woman smiles the wrong way ann hathaway just pre-prepared her fucking oscar speech who isn't pre-preparing their fucking oscar speech right of course like you know and and she got destroyed for it and had to like withdraw from society i've pre-prepared an oscar speech and i'm never going to win an oscar it's just something that you've all got to do right i mean just like but when men fuck up we do

the like redemptive article in gQ or whatever esquire and and we You know, he talks about his difficult childhood and how he had like a difficult dad and how he's been to rehab and he's working on himself and we're like, oh, what a brave self-reflective king. We love him. Like it's so sexy the way that he can look into himself.

Women don't even get that chance. Women don't get the comeback. We're just allowed to maybe creep back into society. So 2020, I was just a bit like, okay, I do want to kill myself. I do want to, like I literally wanted to kill myself. I had to be put on medication. And I do want to leave this industry

and really just, like live a peaceful life and go back to working in a video shop when I was really, really happy. But they don't exist anymore. And I do like, I like everything does feel like it's just over for me and they won. And then I was like, what would a white man do? A white man would probably just stick around and just fuck around and find out. And so I was like, well, I've got nothing to lose now because I've been shot on by the world. So why don't I just, why don't I just do the white man? thing for a while and just keep going.

Just carry on and pick myself back up, learn from it, and just, you know, go forward. And I did. And then I booked fucking Marvel and all my shows got renewed. And then I ended up having an amazing year in my career. And I was like, oh my God, women don't know that you don't have to leave. Woohoo. Someone's got to tell women you don't have to leave. You should stay.

Stay and it blows over and life goes on. And then people forget. People literally sometimes DM me being like, I know I don't like you, but I don't remember why can you please tell me what you did i'm like just fuck like fuck up oh my god it's a perfect example of the fact that we just like we don't like it just it passes shit passes however heinous it is i got accused of mad shit and then it just moved on the world moved on there's so many worse things happening in the world it's really as a woman wherever you this isn't just celebrity like if you're at school if you are at work if you are at college or uni and this shit is

being spread about you. It feels like the world is ending and that that the world is just within the four walls of whatever your environment may be. It isn't. Life goes on. You can come back from this. You can come back stronger and better from this. And that is what I'm sticking around for is to remind everyone because a lot of the cancellation happens inside of women. We withdraw. We deny ourselves opportunities. We think, no, everyone's sick of me. I shouldn't. Fuck them. They'll fucking forget. They'll literally forget. Just carry on. And so that's what I'm trying to represent is like, you know, whether you've made a mistake or whether a mistake was made up, just carry on. Persist. You deserve the right. You deserve the chance to, to carry on. And no one

gets to tell you when you're done and when you finish growing and learning, but you. Yeah. And I guess that's like so much of what you, your feminist in progress thing is something that I think, I don't know about you, but I feel so much regret sometimes for, like, how I behaved before I fully, like, identified as a feminist or recognized feminism or any of the, you know, the society that I existed in, like, I was such a fucking dick. And I'm so ashamed of myself sometimes. I'm like, oh, my God. Like, does that lend itself to regret? Because you're so brilliantly, like, public about learning on the job. And, like, are you forgiving of yourself for what you didn't know? And then kind of, like, making your peace with the comments. conversations that you have now. Yeah. Otherwise, what's the point of activism? If we don't believe in change, what is the point? What are we fighting for? What are we shouting at each other for? Like, if we don't actually believe that redemption is possible, then why are we calling out for it? Why are we calling out for improvement if we don't think people can improve? I consider my own journey of growth

and improvement to be hopeful for me to know that other people can do it because I'm extremely basic. Like, I really, I really like, I'm not a special. person. And so if I can change and if I could grow the fuck up, so can anyone else. And so it makes me carry on in activism. Like my own fuck-ups before galvanise me

to know that also like I can then relate to the people who right now are full of like misguided anger or hatred or ignorance. You know, I know where they are at. I've been there before and I can read I want to reach out to them. The whole point of I way is that we're not here to like bash you over

the head for what you don't know. We're not interested in that part our like grotesque like habit of the left you know where we're searching for traitors and not converts like we're looking for converts at iway like like doesn't matter where you're at in your knowledge we want to we want to know you we're excited that you're here to learn i'm learning learn with me this is a community no one's fucking perfect we're all updating it's all about just trying to be better tomorrow than you were today and that's why iway is so successful because it's a safe space on the internet where you don't feel like you have to have an academia level of understanding of every single sector of social justice,

otherwise you're going to be murdered. It's so true. I think it does make it really scary sometimes with social media. You don't want to say anything in case you don't know everything, but I guess what you've created is such like a wonderful space.

Just like, I was having a conversation with Alex's husband yesterday about this and he said like, oh, there's some things I don't have an opinion on because I just don't know. And I'm like, I can't relate. Like the internet's made me have an opinion on absolutely everything. Yeah.

And I'm very bad at like sitting back and just being like, I need to learn. And I think that's something that we're kind of having to practice with with Instagram and activism, right? Yeah, also like, you know, I fucked up with that as well, like in the fact that as soon as I came out talking about eating disorders and fat phobia and ableism, like, there's a three things that I knew about from like my own personal experience. I really knew what I was fucking talking about. But as soon as I said, like, I really care about this shit and I really feel

passionate about it, the internet just came from me and they were like, well, what about what about what's happening in Poland? What about what's happening in Kashmir? What about what's happening in Israel and Palestine what about what's happening with this this situation or this religion or this that and the other and like I just didn't I didn't have any any like knowledge that would be worthy of sharing it with millions and millions and millions of followers but everyone's just like if you don't say anything you're part of the problem and I understand that thinking and I also understand being like finally a fucking celebrity is willing to talk about about shit let's see if she can also like help our cause but I allowed the pressure to get to me where I was like I don't want them to

think I don't care because I do care. I just don't know. And then I would speak before I knew anything. And then I would fuck it up and misinformed loads of people and then everyone would understandably get really mad at me. So we also have to understand that you should be always trying to learn as much as you can, but you don't have to speak out about it until you feel just at least a bit ready. And you have to take your time. And we are more helpful if we are all focused on the thing that we can actually go forward and help. So now I only speak. out about things that I can actually, I know I will be able to go forward and actually exact change in. So it's like, okay, I have contacts that I can help make a change in this or I know

people who I can raise money for this. I can actually, rather than just retweet this so that everyone gets off my back, I now only talk about causes where I know I can then take it to government or take it to other activists or take it to the UN. I'm trying to now be more intentional so that I don't just like create a mess and then take up space because I created a mess. But we do. We push women specifically into speaking about everything they're like your silence on this is deafening and sometimes that silence is more helpful than misinforming millions of people because we are also just a bunch of entertainers who don't didn't really go to school i actually i want to ask you i mean you said you know celebrities don't often you know venture far into the the the realm of of social justice

and it's kind of rare for a woman to be outspoken and also successful because we're expected to be quite obedient and quiet and just sort of go along with the system and I wonder if you've ever had to weigh up whether you express your opinions publicly against like any potential career consequences have you ever had that sort of that internal monologue where you're like do I do this or do I just go for a quiet life sit back and just kind of you know as soon as like my opinion started going viral in america in 2018 like i was sat down and that conversation was had with me you know where they were just like if you take this on you're going to lose millions millions and millions like every opportunity

brands won't want to touch you because they Photoshop or they do this or they're partnered up with this person and they were like you're going to you're going to lose loads of branding opportunities and and i did and i knew that so i yeah um did you did you did you How many things am I the face of? Do you know what I mean? Like I don't partner up with lots of brands because I don't approve of because I won't like makeup brands want to work with me but I'm like only if you don't Photoshop my campaign.

So then they're like, sorry we can't do that, which is quite rude. Very rude. Or offensive hair slogan sometimes that leave like that make it seem as though hair is that all important everything and that people who don't have hair like wouldn't be as important or whatever. I just don't, you know, I'm very, very very. particular about who I work with and I'm aware of that and I would have like fucking tens and tens of millions of dollars I'm not some great martyr for that but I am saying

that that was an act that was a decision it was a decision I made knowing that like I'm doing this for a reason I don't really give a fuck about being famous I don't like being famous it's really it's really odd and bad for my mental health um and it's bad for everyone's mental health and I don't know a single happy balanced famous person who even your faves who you think are fine because they're all smiling on their red carpets and not doing interviews. They're all fucked. I know them. And so, but I'm doing this because I have nothing to lose. Like I love this industry. It's been a, it's been a, like a joyride, honestly. I feel like I'm driving a stolen car. It's been really, really fun. But I'm okay with it ending at any time. What I'm

interested in is allowing for there to be space in our public sphere where little girls can grow up and know you're allowed to make mistakes or you're allowed to be imperfect or you're allowed to grow in real time you're allowed to take your time to get better at things you're allowed to try things that you're not really good at and see what happens you're allowed to take risks you're allowed to have an opinion and you're not going to die you're not going to like it's not all going to be taken away from you it might turn out to be fucking fantastic like it has for me But also the thing that I love that you've just said is that you don't like being famous, or you don't think it's good for you, you know, because I guess the rhetoric that surrounds,

and it's what you were saying earlier about the gaslighting, why they build you up and up and up. And it's like, you're being ungrateful to say that you don't like it. And I think, like, that's a real thing that people, and I definitely was like a person that thought like this before, where you'd think, like, well, if they don't like it, then why didn't they just stop? And, like, I think that's, I mean, obviously, I wonder if it's a, gendered thing because it's like if Amanda's like being famous it's like oh he's tortured like you know what you know so but a woman's like well

she's ungrateful so you should love it and I don't know does that make any sense does you ever feel do that come on it makes perfect sense but like but yeah but I'm on a mission like it's got nothing to do with being an actress I'm enjoying being an actress it's fine it's lovely the food is excellent

but I but it's all just you know a way to then reach more people with just trying to encourage them to find their own truth. Because women are just not allowed to find their own truth. We're just sort of giving this bullshit version of the truth and then just indoctrinated into that. And I just really would like people to like, I play by my own rules. And I think that's really important to have public figures who do that. And that doesn't just always mean, like, and I, like, this is going to come out wrong. But I feel like the only way women are like told is the acceptable way to rebel is by

taking your clothes off. And that's cool and that's great. But there are also other ways that you can rebel. You can expose your mind. You can expose your opinions. You can expose your flaws. It's exposing your body can be a part of it, but you can also expose multiple different parts of yourself. That can't be the only way in which like we rebel. We step outside. That's just like going against like kind of religious values of women having to be chased. There are multiple ways in which you can rebel. Maybe not having the, you know, the toned body or like whatever like maybe allowing to show your stretch marks or, you know, all over your tits like I did in the good place. There are loads of microaggressions of rebelling that you can participate in and I think that that's just really

important and I think it's I think it's I think it's really sad that we've gotten to this point where we're still allowing this archaic system from the 50s to just rip down all of these women like that little girls internalize that when they see that they're like oh she made a mistake and now everyone hates her and now I have to hate her shit okay I should go through my life never making mistakes. Like you're just feeding the anxiety and the way that we fucking talk to people online, the dehumanising way, even celebrities like

fine, whatever, that celebrity probably won't read it their publicist will. But little kids are watching the way that we're talking to each other online and then they're going home and they're parroting that to each other at school. You are directly feeding into like demonic levels

of misogyny in the beginnings of our society when you participate in this culture. And I used to participate in this culture when I was in my 20s. I just don't do it anymore because I don't want to be a part of that. I don't want a kid to grow up and speak to someone the way that I used to speak about Miley Cyrus or Rihanna or LeBionso or anything. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm embarrassed and I think we should all be embarrassed if we're still doing that now. We know so much about mental health. We know so much about the damage of social media. We've seen so many people

teenagers kill themselves now. Like what are we doing? What is this hostile environment that we are perpetuating and if anything getting kind of worse do you like being on socials do you find do you get trolled still like do you cope with are you okay with it because there's I mean does it as it's you know is it calm down or is it still just hell no it's calm down I receive way more love than I receive hate the problem was is that you know I did that thing that the brain does the brain is built like to predict and to protect so it notices danger more than it notices safety so when things were getting shit for me I didn't notice all of the millions of messages of support.

I could just see the sort of hundreds of messages of people telling me to kill myself and spreading lies about me. And so I was focusing on the wrong thing. I've learned now to zoom out and realize that actually a lot of people are very nice. And yes, there is trolling. But trolling, when I used to be a cunt online, it's because I was fucking, I was fucking miserable. I was fucking miserable.

I was traumatized. I had nowhere to direct my rage in my personal life because I was being so oppressed in my person. personal life and so I would just direct it at strangers online and so I know that that's part of what's happening because nobody happy logs on the internet to go and say something horrible and dehumanizing to someone else no one happy because you're busy being happy living your life having orgasms do you know what I mean like eating cake and being cuddled and like living your dream you don't have time yeah I don't I don't have time to troll people because I'm really happy

now when I was miserable I have fucking loads of time to just go online and just be a fucking bitch. So I don't take it personally now and I recognize that it's just like no one else's opinion of me literally no one else's opinion of me matters because I'm still here, I'm thriving. So it just doesn't, it doesn't fucking matter.

I don't have a responsibility to be liked, understood, believed or approved of and that is the most important thing for women to understand. And it's because we are taught that those are our responsibilities, these fake fucking responsibilities, that we distract ourselves

and then don't go for gold. And I don't just mean getting the bag. I mean going for peak mental health or our peak dream or our peak fucking hobby or whatever. We don't go for our dreams because we're weighed down with this extra homework that men just simply don't have to contend with at the same level. When we don't like a man, we just don't learn his name. We're just like, I just think he's a bit average. I'm just not going to learn anything about him or he's done something annoying like fuck that guy. I'm not going to follow him online. When we don't like a woman, we are so afraid of being accused of

being misogynist that we learn everything we can about her to try and justify our hatred of her so that no one will think it's just because we have a little bit of misogyny else and we become obsessed with her. Just you don't like her to leave her alone. Anyone who's tweeting shit about me being like, oh my God, why am I seeing Jamila Jamil in my timeline? Why are you seeing Jamila Jamil in your timeline? You fucking loser. Like mute my name. I've muted peers Morgan four years ago, I've known nothing but peace ever since. I haven't heard a thing about that man. Like, mute my name. You mute my name, you dickhead. Like, what are you doing? You want to, you want to see my name. You love me. You need me. Like, it's just like, it's on you. When you're

getting annoyed by a public figure and you haven't muted your, their name, that's on you. I think. Spot on. I want to ask you, coming back to what you're saying about how women can rebel, the different ways in which we can rebel. And I think for you, part of that is shining a light or like highlighting some of the toxic and harmful things that other female celebrities do, for example, all the diet shit and, you know, blah, blah, blah, weight loss teas. And I want to ask you because actually I think this is something that I wrestle with myself, but I'm never really, able to come to a conclusion with is for you, what do you think is the line between letting a woman sort of do what they want and respecting their choices and also understanding

that they don't know any better and then calling them out on stuff that you know is going to harm other people? Like how do you weigh that up? I think when you are profiting and you're making money off of something that's hurting other people that's the line for me that is the line whether it's in following or in literal cash when you are gaining off of other people's pain

then whether or not you know better it has to be interrupted and you have to be taught better and if you've been taught better and you're still doing it then you deserve to be dragged by your pubs I wasn't expecting that I love it that's how I feel that's the line that's the line and when I talk about you know

influencers or even the Kardashians like I always make sure to include a paragraph of immense empathy because like they're just a product of an environment that we created everyone terrorised Chloe terrorised her continues to terrorise her

about the way that she looks of course they're fucking going to want to diet and show their abs and photoshop themselves I get it but also at some point you have to like take some sort of responsibility and like I've got 200 million

followers, I'm a billionaire, like, is this worth it for the amount of harm I'm doing? Maybe get offline, you know, like, or start to be more authentic, but don't sell products that are going to send kids to the fucking, like, potentially emergency room, like, so I think something like 24,000 kids in America get admitted to the emergency room every year just from diet and detox products. Like, don't sell laxatives and not write that they're laxatives. Don't write, don't not write the side effects of a fucking, uh, supplement that you're selling. You can't do that with any other supplement or drug.

But for diet products, they're just like, they just act like there's no side effects. Write diarrhea underneath your sexy picture. Go on. Write anal fissures, right, hemorrhoids, like, IBS, right? All these things underneath your sexy photoshopped picture. And then we're good.

Let's see how many people, you know, sign up with your discount code. But I do feel immense, I do feel immense empathy, and I feel very sorry for people in the public eye. And I know it's really hard to not prepare. the cycle of impossible beauty standards because you're being held to them yourself by the same public that you're then lying to. It's a fucking loop of hell, but you cannot, you're not allowed to make money off of that.

You're not allowed to gain the success off that. You're just not allowed. I'm sorry because that's harming other women. I think if you're talking about saving hundreds of thousands of young women in order to just call one out and tell her to stop doing it, it's worth it. however much she is a product of her environment she's now creating a new environment for other people to be a product of.

Exactly. And yeah, perpetuating that same toxic environment that she's a victim of. But we talked about this last week, actually in an episode last week about these diet pills specifically, but actually, you know, we were sort of talking about it

in the context of, okay, 10 years ago there wasn't no education. So you can't do it. But now, you know, we could have made allowances 10 years ago, but now it's like, you know, everybody knows you know what i mean so that there isn't really an excuse in my opinion now to do what they're doing also almost no one does it now because of me because i'll just like be so annoying that they don't want to have to deal with me so how many how many mainstream

celebrities do you see peddling diet products or diet apps anymore yeah because of this guy because of this guy and i'm not saying that it's not down to like the i mean they're fucking amazing work of activists throughout time against like diet culture but when it comes specifically to celebrities not posting diet and detox products, I will take credit for that because I am fucking annoying and it was work to become this annoying. I was not born like this. I became, I worked to be this annoying so that people would fear me and not want me to bother them and like ruin their name. So that's it. That's my only achievement in this life. Well done. I just wanted to ask, you've spoken about this before, but when you talk about another woman, it is always written

about as you're attacking them or you know call i don't even know i can't even think of the yeah well i'm indian in pakistani so i must just be a suicide bomber according to the you know the daily mail like yeah especially with especially with round people especially especially with black people my god uh there is infused aggression into all of our behaviors and everything is slamming and trashing because they want they want me to fuck off right the media needs me to fuck off because the main I mean, the media is dying, right? The media is dying because social media exists, and it means that all the information we want to get,

we can get directly from source, right? We don't need to read articles about it anymore. So the media relies on advertising. One of the biggest forms of advertising in all of the media is diet detox products. Those are the people, when you look down at the bottom of the page and you see who they're advertising, diet products, detox products, fasting apps.

Like TikTok, every 15 seconds, it's fasting app. It's Botox, collagen, anti-cellulite cream, like all these different things, right, to fix,

to fix, quote unquote, a woman's appearance predominantly, women are 80% of the consumer market. So they need me to go away

because I'm threatening all of those industries and I've, you know, I'm part of what has made significant dents in those industries being mainstream

in the last couple of years because I'm so annoying. And so they, the way that they can't kill me right which i'm sure they'd like to do but they can kill my credibility so discredit is the new death and so if they discredit me and make me look like i'm always preaching always hysterical always on a soapbox which i'm not like mostly i'm posting about just fucking my dog on instagram you know or makeup or things that i care about in the world or things that are

funny like i'm very multifaceted but if you were to look just at the headlines it just looks like i'm a UFC fighter. I'm just constantly violently lashing out at people. And that is deliberately to be like, oh, don't listen to this woman. She's crazy. Don't listen to all the shit she's saying about diet products and detailed products. No, shush, shush, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh. Don't listen to her

about what she's saying about the fact that it's okay to age naturally and that men are allowed to age and women are also allowed to age and have wrinkles and cellular lights fine, stretch marks are fine. Don't listen to her. She's fucking mad. She's always on one. She's probably on drugs. And so that's what that is. And I just don't need the media

because I've got like access to 5 million people minimum on my Instagram and so I don't like I get more traction on an Instagram post than most you know most of those stupid fucking tabloid articles get on an entire article I don't need them anymore so I can say all this shit do what I want and they can all just eat my ass

it's so nice to hear it's just like it's so unapologetic and it's so great to just recognize it I don't know. I think we're so used to like, you've got to be humble and like, and I don't know, it's, it's so exciting to hear people speak so honestly about it. But I don't think, I don't think I lack humility. Like, I know my shortcomings. I know I'm annoying. I know I'm uneducated. Like, I don't think my being willing to not just lay down and die is a lack of humility.

I just think I'm tired of being brainwashed into this existence that I am here to serve other people's needs and to somehow be liked by the whole world, 8 billion people with all these different tastes and experiences and likes and dislikes, I'm supposed to appeal to all of them. Are you fucking kidding me? There's not even a food that pleases all people in this world, apart from maybe toast, maybe toast at best. But like, none of us can achieve that. And women are burdened with this unrealistic, impossible, guaranteed to fail. Like, the pedestal we get put up on is a trapdoor. It's a or avoid it at all costs. Avoid it at all costs.

Always be real. Never buy into your own fucking hype and never think that it's going to stay that way when everyone loves you. If anything, you are on a path to destruction. You need to get yourself ready and arm yourself and make sure that you've got mates around you who don't give a shit about the public perception of you.

That's what I have. I live with like so many boys who I grew up with. We live in a big house together. Like all of us and we've known each other to do teenagers. They don't know anything about my career. They don't give a shit. like surround yourself with people who aren't swayed by the public because the the crash is coming and you have to know that that's okay you will survive it it will pass and you must carry on and if

all of us do that they will stop trying to take us down because they'll know that we know better so allow me to be the crash test dummy and you know like the ghost of cancellations passed and who's coming back to warn all of you that it's going to be okay it's going to be okay it. Well, we'd love to end by asking you, you know, if you are excited by the future of feminism and how that's looking. Like, obviously, you've got your platform I-Way, which is helping literally millions of people value themselves beyond how they look. So, yeah, are you excited about the future of feminism? I'm so excited about the future of feminism, but I also fear for the future of feminism right now. Like we're being nalled and twisted against each other. There's a lot of

competition, a lot of leaving people out, a lot of moral superiority. Like, we're supposed to be helping each other along. We're supposed to be making space for each other. I don't like seeing activists compete with each other. I don't like seeing that online at the moment. I think it's really creepy and weird. We're all in the same fight. And I so I just want to make sure that we zoom out and remember that if we're all nitpicking each other, I'm not saying we shouldn't call each other out and like make each other accountable to some degree. But the opposition are just carrying on, oppressing us taking away our fucking like reproduction rights and this, that and the other while we're all busy pointing at

each other, competing with each other, nitpicking each other to fucking death. We need to zoom out, organize and join a full coalition that involves women of different races, women of different disabilities or non-disabilities. Like we need to really like fucking don't, don't cut trans. women out of the fight of feminism for fuck sake if anyone knows how to surpass the boundaries of gender norms and the like prison of gender norms and gender stereotypes is fucking trans women my god so let's stop like pushing each other out and trying to have our own little party that's going to win and turning this into like british politics or something and let's let's make a bigger

crowd like we're harder to destroy like we're safer in numbers when we are all together we can actually do something about the opposition. Let's build the foundation of our house before we start decorating it. Right now it just feels like we're like making sure that everything's perfectly straight and everything looks perfect in our house. While the opposition are just laughing at us

as they carry on taking everything. We're rolling shit back right in front of us and then watching us eat each other alive like a bunch of piranhas. So I'm very excited about the possibilities of feminism and I think we have some incredible women and I'm so happy to see more diverse faces being elevated within feminism but fuck me we need to like organize and chill out and identify

the difference between ignorance and evil and we need to start seeking converts and not just traitors spot on it's so good mic drop yeah so good i've had a lot of coffee this morning so i'm just no i love it absolutely on one real um thank you so much to meena that was genuinely awesome Thank you for having me on this podcast. I appreciate your time. One interview. I'm still buzzing. I'm getting a bit stressed that we peak.

I think we've gone out the gate too fast too well. And I think the only way is down. The only thing that I said this to my friend yesterday that I'm really like holding on to because he was like, God, you're doing so well with the podcast. And I was like, yeah. unfortunately the only way is down but if running is anything to go by downhill is always like the the fun bit anyway you know yeah yeah I think we've got to lean

back and just go with it so I hope you enjoyed the summit there we just sticking with the Everest we just thought it exactly just reached the summit and now the descent begins but oh no oh no I'm going to just absolutely annihilate your analogy there because ever with Everest with climbing right the ascent people think is the hardest but the descent is the most treacherous part of the climb because of the altitude

yeah and you're tired and you're more likely to make mistakes yeah and also if you slip going up gravity is going to whizz you down yeah you've got gravity on your side you know what I did last night I watched Everest I'm like I saw that isn't it amazing

yeah I'd actually seen it before but Alex had it and we'd both seen enough of it on your Instagram but we were like it's horrifying it's like harrowing but it's a true story isn't it it's a true story yeah so you should read the book into thin air by john can't remember his name but he it's his account of what happened on the mountain okay oh chills okay got chills oh that's a lot all right anyway is it just me okay so i want to start this this little segment

off with an embarrassing story that came in straight away after the last podcast episode air you might remember last week i said my awkward moment was when i leant forward in the gym and a people of chewing gum fell out of my mouth. So somebody DM me this, saying, hi, M, I've just been interested to your latest podcast, and firstly, I love it. But secondly, I have an awkward moment to rival yours in the gum department

that I thought would give you a chuckle. Years ago, I was at a very expensive jewelers looking to treat myself to a lovely ring. I lent over to admire the beauty and my gum fell out of my mouth and stuck to the back of the jeweler's

hand. Oh no! They were wearing a white glove, so at least they were protected from my drivel, but it then proceeded to get stuck. I had to peel it off, apologize, and promptly leave. Oh, the shame. Oh, the absolute shame. It's so gross. That's literally pretty woman moment, like, immediately.

It's horrible. Big mistake. Why is there something, like, so, it should be that, it's fairly innocuous, but something's so embarrassing about chewing, or anything just dropping out of your mouth. like it's like get a grit just like keep what's in your mouth embarrassing yeah just like under someone's like little white glove like it's oh it's so undignified a little elegant like white glove elegant little fingers and then you just got this big yeah foul it just really made me laugh and felt way better

about myself so um thank you yeah it's giving me the shivers i don't like it it's like you know when you're speaking to someone that you don't know that well then you spit oh and sometimes i hate it so when you i always make a point of being like oh my god i'm so sorry I just spat on you because I think that's the best way to handle it but then when people don't do it and they spit on you and then you've got like like yeah you get spit on your most recent mom has she spat on my lip and I could feel it on my lip I was like she knows and I know so if I go to like rub my lip like it it's really obvious it's so obvious if you lick it looks like you're enjoying it that's how COVID spread so fast I was going to say yeah um I liked that thank you um I've got one

And I didn't know if I should actually, like, it's, it's so bad. Like, it made, I don't know if it made me laugh, but like, it's so bad. I was like, it's, it's so bad that I didn't know if I should read out or not. So, okay, well, for my intrigue, more than anything. This might not even stay in, but, um, okay, let's just, okay, let's just go. Um, but I would die. Let's just, first off like, if this has happened to me, I would die. I, like, you, I wouldn't be here anymore.

Okay. Um, hi, absolutely love you. I love how we keep these bits in, lol. Yeah, loving the poem. Absolutely. love your podcast. Thank you, Han. So I have so many embarrassing stories. I just seem to one of those people who that shit just happens to cool. But the ultimate one, which really is the most embarrassing thing that's ever happened to me in my life, was when I was just standing,

minding my own business, waiting in a queue at the bar of a big family party. Okay, set the scene. She's a bar, big family party. I suddenly felt a pair of hands grabbed my boobs from behind. Assuming it was my husband, I did not move, but stood still and enjoyed this moment of drunken fondling. Okay. I turned around to mock reprimand my hubby for this naughty, open display of groping, only to be confronted by my father's horrified face. What? As a side note, at the time, I was about the same height build and hair colouring as my mother. We both screamed and ran away to promptly vomit.

Oh, Dad. her fucking dad graping her boobs I can't close my mouth no I know I know I could never I could never ever ever get over that

but I think it's just so bad that she let him no no as in like she thought it was her husband but like you know it kept going on because then neither of them fucking realized

I don't have any words isn't that horrendous I don't have any words I think this goes beyond embarrassing. I think this is like, I don't think it's...

Like she needs therapy? Well, no, I don't know. Maybe she just needs to leave. Her family. The earth. Just the vicinity, the sort of borough. Isn't that awful?

Yeah, the family. I think, you know, witness protection, there's a good case for that there. Good God. New country, new life. Yeah, just forget him. Honestly, just move on with your life.

I'm so sorry I'm so, I'm so I also feel like I can't react properly I'm just like horrified I know I know yeah

I feel like it's all a lesson to learn there I hope you're okay yeah actually I'm obviously gonna keep you anonymous but I hope witness protection is nice

is it can you write back tell us what the houses are like do you know Mexico is fun yeah exactly what is the weather like in South America

at this time of you is it just me okay so my is it just me this week actually didn't come for anybody specific, but it came, I'm asking this question out of necessity because I did something on my Instagram yesterday where I left a confessional box. And as it transpires, a lot of my followers have been incorrectly inserting or not inserting their tampons

over the last decade. And I just wanted to ask, first and foremost, is it just me on behalf of my followers that's ever wrongly put in a tampop basically Alex have you ever did did you get it first go or were you confused when you first started oh I was so confused I was so confused I was so confused and I read in a magazine that you put your leg on the bath don't you put your leg up on the bath oh really no I just so oh that was that noise oh sorry sorry sorry that's really enjoy that in your ears yeah that is a SMR tampon A SMR rank so um oh stop yeah so I read that the best way to do it was to put one leg up on the bath so it gives you kind of better access. But I remember the bath, I thinking that the bath wasn't like high enough

so I put my leg up on the sink, but I still couldn't do it. No, it took me ages. So my followers, the various entries, I'm just going to give you the insertion points of various tampons. Oh God. One of them went up the bomb. No, no, no. She was 11 and she put it up her bum because she thought that's where the underlying the undercurrent here is sex education and conversations with our kids needs to move forward because nobody should be putting tampons up their bum she actually put it up her bum that was one of them the next one god love her now this was not a sole entry this came in from multiple people i don't think i like this one i think it's the one i don't like this is the hot dog method oh no that's going funny treating your flaps as the bun

to the tampon burger in the middle. It's that a real thing? People actually did that. Well, one person sent it in being like, oh my God, I'm fucking mortified. I did it for like a year. And then somebody else replied being like, oh my God,

somebody else used their labia as bonds. And I was like, well, that's a sentence. I never thought I'd read. So yeah, that was, it's going to sit there and just, I've got to stop that noise. Sorry, sorry, sorry. But surely it wouldn't just,

it wouldn't say there. I think, no, I think you just got to, I hope your pants are going to, well, I mean, everybody's got different vulvets. Yeah, he likes to get it all right. Yeah, exactly. He's got a waddle everywhere. The next one, somebody inserted it with the plastic applicator.

I can see how that happens. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Oh, shit, the entire thing. And just shoved it all up. And just, oh, yeah. That can't be good for you. Yeah. And then finally, someone put it up the weehole.

Yeah, see, this. This is all not, oh my God, because it's tiny. I've got a confession. Go on. I've never seen my weehole. No, I actually have no idea where it is. I'm going to go look for my, not right now, I'll wait till I get out. But I'm going to look for my weehole.

I have no idea where it is. I actually don't know. I don't know. I really don't know either. I feel like I've got the gist of like bum vagina. And then I think it's going to be between that and click, yeah. Oh, it's up. What is it?

Oh yeah, no, it is up? Yeah. It's not going to be in the perineum, is it? No, no, no. You're like a rob the dark. It's got me up. Just a little hole there at the bottom. So it's, yeah, no, I actually don't know. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

But I'm doing that confession. I was like, fuck me, we know nothing about our bodies. Literally. We are going to do so many podcast episodes specific to sex education. So many. I want to talk about fannies. I want to talk about bums. Yeah.

I want to talk about tampons, periods, all of it. Because this is chaos. There are people hot-dogging their tampons using their vagina. like oh my god i don't even know what so we've got an email entry is it just me um first of all just wanted to say congratulations the podcast is amazing all he's reading the praise don't be a knob we will stop doing that we will stop doing that my is it just me is it just me that is totally fine with being single i get so fed up of being asked why i'm not in a relationship or why i'm not seeing that person i've been on a date with again the honest truth is that i don't want to waste my

time in a pointless relationship trying to force something to work i'd rather be called a serial data and wait till I meet someone who passes the vibe check, someone who is on my wavelength, you know? So yeah, is it just me? I love that. Me too. I mean, obviously I've been together with Alex for like nearly a decade. Yeah. But I actually had this conversation with a woman in the gym this morning. Like, I think the wave, I guess, the internet now, like Instagram, it's getting so exciting just to see so much like single positivity. And I know, like our friend, our friend, our friend Ashley James, who now has a baby and a boyfriend. but she's so good for single positivity

and she was one of the first people that I ever followed that was like oh my God like you can be she made being single look so good I was like maybe I should try that now I'm joking Alex I'm sorry Alex

I love you but it's it's I see so many like amazing quotes like Ash edit it's like she's got we've actually got one of the pictures that she modelled for the artist the Comrade brothers and it's like rather rather

be alone than lonely with you and I love that. That's quite, I was trying to Google just now because I can't remember it, but that's it, that's it. And there's another one as well that's like, I'd rather be on the shelf than in the wrong cabinet. I love that. Isn't that? That's so good.

That's so good. I've never heard that. That's really good. I literally said that job woman in the gym this morning because she was like, oh, you know, I'm struggling with dating and all that. And I was like, babes. I really like that. Yeah. And I know it's really, I do think it's easy for like, well, I mean, I just, I haven't been single for everything. really but I it frustrates me so much the particularly now like our age the

conversation for women is just so relentless like I know so many single men in their 30s who had just left the fuck alone and women it's like you know you couldn't couldn't couldn't hold them down could you like couldn't catch one like and it's like oh you've missed the boat yeah you've missed the boat yeah good ones are gone I remember someone saying like when I split up with my ex and I was about to turn 30 and someone who was in the same boat was like, have we missed the boat?

And I was like, it's so shit that we even have to think like this and you would not be saying that to a man who was 29, no 30, would you? Have you missed the boat? 29 is so young. It's so young but it didn't feel it and that's the thing because of this like pressure

around it but it is so, so, so young. And it's because of what we were saying before about the pressure to get married. It's like it's prioritised. Like, you know, like you're going to grow up and you're going to marry a nice man and that's the fucking goal. And it's like there,

it's like tantamount to failure if you're single. And it's like, Jesus Christ, no. I saw another amazing quote. Sorry to keep like lifting off quotes I saw. But it's like what we need to get into the habit as women of doing and as men as men as well.

It's working out like the people that we spend time with, they have to be better, a better option than spending time on your own. 100%. Like you have to like spending time with them more than you would like to spend an evening on your own. And if you think you'd rather have a pizza and watch TV on your own, TV on your own, then then do that. I mean, sometimes you want to like do something on your own,

right? Especially you, don't you? You like your own time. I'm not so good at it, but. Alex's like, who wants to do stuff on their own? I can't really. I get upset when Dave does stuff on his own. That's the thing I'm working on. It is tricky. It is really hard and I feel like, I don't know, like with everything, it is so nuanced, isn't it? Because like, I don't know. I find this, like, really hard, but that's probably because I'm not good at, like, making decisions or, like, having perspective on my own life. Because, like, I was in a relationship that wasn't right for a long time. So, but it's, I don't know. Were you happier on your own? No. When the, when the wrong relationship ended? No. That's interesting. We loved each other. We were really, really happy together. Like, there is, like, you know, I still friends. Yeah, still best of friends

and I spend time with him and it's like the best time ever but there was no physical relationship there and but it's really hard isn't it because sometimes it's just not clear cut it's not like oh this definitely isn't right I need to leave because we loved each other so much so we both you know it's just it's just hard

it's difficult and that why I said to you the day I was like I can't remember what we were talking about and I was like trust your gut out and I'm just like no I don't trust my god's not right the fucking liar the whole thing's a mess um because then that's the thing with it oh god sorry i'm opening a kind of worms here but like with all this like dump him stuff yeah great and if he shit dump him but then like like i don't know i just feel like it's far more complicated than that you know and it's so hard to actually work out like what's right for you and then and i also

think that it isn't as clear cut as like he's right for you he's not right for you as well There's like, it's a spectrum, isn't it? Yeah, I know what you mean, yeah, because I like all the sort of like, I like all the very feminist like, you know, dump him, ditch him, whatever, you know. And like, I'm like, yes, that is because women have historically and do traditionally put up with a lot of fucking shit, we celebrate the bare minimum and, you know, dating is just the hell. And, you know, there's so much wrong with it. But then I think, you know, you have to be realistic about like what a relationship looks like.

Yeah. And that's very different, I suppose. but again like i mean i talk as like some fucking withered old woman that's never even had a tinder account so i don't there's a bit of me that's just like hmm but i just play on my friends that's why i find this whole relationship talk like really complicated that's why i think we should do an episode on it would be really interesting and single positivity because what we've gone off it but what that entry said it's so important that people feel like that shouldn't be you shouldn't feel like an anomaly for feeling like that you should value your own time and your own life

and your own you know what I mean like that should be 100% standard and then after that anything else is a bonus I remember my mum saying to me once I'm I was so dramatic aged 18 when I first got 19 or whatever when I first got together with Alex and I was like I need him and my mum was like you do not she was like you want him but you do not need him and I was like yes mom love that absolutely love that and I've literally held on to that forever if I'm like oh I need I need I'm like no I don't need him. I don't need him. I am a complete person on my own. I am a whole entity. I'm a great human being and him being in my life is the best bonus ever. Yeah, that's really good. But I don't need him to complete me because I am a complete person. Love that. And I think even within a relationship,

that's really important to hold on to that. Yeah. You have to know that you will be okay. I don't know if I'm there actually. Jacqueline. Come back. But it's, I think that's something that everybody should aim to work on whether you're single or in a relationship, right? Totally. And I do think you can you can do it while you're in a relationship as well. Like it's not like, oh, I have to be single to like sort myself out. You know, you don't, you like, obviously some people do, but you, but you, quotation marks work.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, to be perfectly frank, me and Alex have been lucky, but it withstanded the work. Because I think a lot of people, like, we've been together for nearly a decade and we've changed. Like, we were not. 19, well, I was 19. It's a long time.

Yeah. And I think, you know, we could have grown up and just done it slightly differently and still been, I don't think, you know, we're still like best friends, first and foremost, but I think in, there have been so many changes. And if, you know, one of, there's just a million ways that it wouldn't have, that it might not have worked. And we were very lucky that we grew up together. and we've grown up to who because we are different people

and we're just lucky that we still love each other and you've evolved together I guess yeah like Pokemon's yeah um I just have something to ask you now I'm nervous well I am too actually and it was only because Georgie's follow um was around my house the other day yeah she was around my house the other day

and she just looked me dead in the eye and said this thing and I was like fucking hell Georgie are you okay and then I thought I know who I need to ask this question too and that's Alex Right so Georgie said to me the other day that when she dies she's going to have it in her will that we all have to eat her

her ashes all her friends have to eat a bit so my question to you would you eat would you eat if he left it in his will dead Dave

oh my god I just like that gag turned into a burp sorry not a chance on earth it's in his will Is this his last request, Alex, my love. I'd say, yeah, sure, Dave.

If it means that much to you, yeah, sure, but I'm not doing it. He's dead. He's, and he's watching you from. I don't believe he is, so no. Space heaven. No, space heaven. Where if you go, I don't know. No, sorry.

Absolutely, would you? Eat dead Alex? Yeah. Well, I said yes to Georgie, so I feel like on the premise of that, I now have to say yes to Alex, yeah. Was she serious? well I don't know what's this base but why would you want someone to eat you

just for joke well did you not hear about this story in the news of the woman who ate her mom yeah well I think this is what inspired I think I told you this yeah there's a woman who was in a daily mirror

a few weeks ago who was eat her mom's ashes and she had a teaspoon full every morning a teaspoon every morning just neat

I'm thinking about it like the cinnamon challenge I was as well yeah like just put it all to the back of your throat you're just gonna swallow it to take the glamour her away from it. Ultimately, you are then just shitting your dead mom out, which is pretty grim.

You told that story of the dentist, do you remember? Oh my God, yeah, why did I do that? I think you were trying to like break the, yeah, Al was really nervous at the dentist. I was trying to lighten the atmosphere, like break the ice. And you, yeah, I literally out of nowhere, you were like, did you hear that that woman is eating her mom's dead ashes? Like, and the dentist just looked up and was like, no. Go out. Literally just didn't say anything else.

This is what I mean, this is what I said earlier about my awkward thing when I said I followed that woman to work. I need a poor. Like I need a, I need like just a little one, just a little filter. Like a brittle filter. Yeah, brittle filter.

I don't have it. Yeah. A brain filter. I don't have it. They just come out. And I'm like, why the fuck? And I knew it at the dentist. As I was saying it,

I was like, why am I asking the dentist if you saw the story about the woman, they ate her mother? And I said it. I was like, you're just going to have to poop her out. I'm like, why I was saying this? honestly it's so bad you need to get a grip

but yeah so just to confirm you would not fulfill dates last will and wish no right well that's I'd say yeah if it made him feel better like while he was still alive I'd say yes

but then when he was gone I wouldn't do it betray his trust he's gone then isn't he oh god gone but not digested oh okay

well that's a nice note to end it on I hope you all enjoyed that. I felt like it was kind of rank actually, I'm sorry. There's been a roller coaster actually. Yeah, we've been up, we've been down. We've had incest. Yeah, there's been a real, there's been a real argument for singledom there, I think. Yeah, for sure.

For single positivity. Yeah, for sure. You won't have to eat anybody at their eventual demise. Wow, we've had incest, single possibility, cannibalism. Cannibalism. Oh my God, okay. Someone sent me a DM the other day saying, I really want to eat you. Oh.

I think he meant like, out. Yes. And I just sent him back an article that the Guardian wrote, being like, so cannibalism is not illegal, but is it okay? And then he blocked me. Now we all feel a bit sick. Yes. Sorry to the group.

You know, those nice emails that we get saying, I love your podcast so much. It's my embarrassing story. They aren't going to start like that anymore. Guys, thank you so much for listening. And we'll see you. you, well, I will be alone next week. Oh, yeah.

I'm so sorry. I know. And we're happy that she's shacked up, but she is leaving her other partner alone. But that's all right, that'll be fine. I'll mind before. What could possibly go wrong? I'll be fine. Yeah, hang on it. All good. Yeah, trust me. I would say I feel bad, but I'll be all right, I think. I think you'll be

all right, yeah. On the beach. Okay, well, we'll see you next week. I will. Yeah. She will. See you in two weeks. I'm so sorry. Bye. Bye. You know, I'm going to be

on Bhop Bhop Bhop Bhop B B S

B Thank you.