Should I Delete That? - Jameela Jamil on "The Ozempic Olympics", being unapologetically outspoken and unafraid to be disliked

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

You asked - so we answered… Jameela Jamil is back on the podcast. Jameela is an actor and activist - she’s unapologetic and she’s not afraid of being disliked. There are very few people in Hollywood who speak out so openly, loudly and passionately about social justice, so we spoke to Jameela about why she feels equipped and compelled to speak out, and why others may not do the same… even when they know they should. We also spoke to Jameela about the death of the body positivity movement, the Ozempic Era and her view on celebrities glamourising the return of ultra-thinness as the mainstream beauty ideal. Be prepared to get angry, impassioned and ready to fight back... If you want to get in touch you can email us on [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Elliott MckayVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Sarah EnglishMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

When I'm looking at everyone being super skinny, fighting time, fighting gravity, trying to achieve eternal agelessness, all I see is obedience and compliance and submissiveness. Good girl, that's what they're really saying. Not go girl, it's good girl. And I don't want to be anyone's fucking good girl. Hello, and welcome back to Shoulda Delete That. I'm Alex Light. And I'm Em Clarkson.

One interview we had today. We had Jamila Jamil on the podcast to talk about social justice, doing social justice online when you have an enormous platform and how that pans out like on a day to day basis because I was fascinated by that. I don't, I think she's unusual in that. I don't know anyone with her or I don't know, I don't think I know many people with her level of fame, I guess, who is so outspoken and so unapologetic about what she talks about as her. Do you mean it's one of those people, when I hear her speaking on something, when I see a clip, I'm like, God, I've got a million things to ask you. And then as soon as the interview finished today, I was like,

I have a million more. Same, same. And it's like, she's, she's, she's kind of an enigma in so many ways. And she's such an enigma. So good at speaking to so many things. But I think as ever, with all good social justice, I've probably left with as many questions, with more questions than answers or than I won't in with. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Well, it's very difficult to interview someone about, like you said, that breadth of topics and spend an hour doing it. Yeah. It's impossible. Yeah. And I think what she's doing in the activism space in the sort of way that she pushes forward is absolutely remarkable. The position that she's in makes her such an interesting person to comment or to observe the way that this all works and the way that we tie each other up

and the way that the patriarchy operates and the way that Hollywood is. It's like she's some sort of, I don't know, like an insider, like a spy, but like a spy that says she's a spy. Do you know what I mean? I do. I know exactly what you mean. You've got eyes on the inside, but they're not like subtle eyes they're not like or report back later they're like hey guys I'm here I'm in this room and look what's in it with me that's what I find so fascinating about her is she's like she's got uh the the phrase is escaping me I want to say hand in both pies but it's not what I mean is it I would love a hand in two pies right now I'm so hungry oh I'd love a hand in two pies bonofi pie in one bit of mash bit of gravy yeah bake well in the other oh we were on different vibes

oh oh no I was on savory pies I thought if you put my bonovie pie I'm out You'd ruin my life. I love of a bonafri pie. Sorry. Lost train of the day. We know how we came on to pies. What did I say? She has a hand in both.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, she's straddling two hours. And that is a really unique position. Yeah. I don't really know if there's anyone else quite like her. You said at a point in the interview that she's sort of the only one and she is and she isn't. Like, obviously there are incredible people using their platform for good.

We've been talking since we've finished recording about Nicola Cochlin, Cynthia Nixon. Obviously there are incredible actresses. using their platform for brilliant activism as well. She's sort of evolved in so many ways, even throughout her activism. And she acknowledges her fallibility and her cancellations or her pylons. And it's just, like, fascinating. It's fascinating. And to, like, to touch on that briefly, like, yes, there are other actresses that do use their platform for activism.

But to me, it's very different because she's unique in a sense that she, to me, it's quite clear that she does not give her fuck. she says what she thinks she says exactly what she thinks and i don't know if she's really scared of the consequences of it which i think is in a unique position in hollywood particularly for a woman i feel like she's an activist first and foremost and an actress second yeah she talks about her need not to be liked and i think that's a really interesting thing but i also have as i say still a million questions about about activism and about what we collectively do with the information that we're presented, how we can be good, kind people and keep doing this work, how we can look after the people we think of victims of a society that we don't like.

And we have a really interesting conversation about the ozempic era, about the changing faces and bodies of Hollywood, about, you know, these beauty standards and stuff. And I think I need to go away and have a think about the conversation that we've had and what I, what activism looks like to me and how much empathy and compassion. exists alongside the anger and frustration because I think they're just very interesting points and on that I asked Jamila at the end I ask you and Jamila a question at the end

and I would really like to top this episode with your answer to that question if I can because we do talk a lot about activism but the kind of point of wanting to get Jamila on was to talk about body image and collective body image and I asked what you both thought about the line between empathy and anger

when it comes to these people and the amount of responsibility that these people Yeah and I think you and Jamila are both big voices within this space and I think I as a very serious journalist wanted to take the opportunity to put it to you both because I think it's an unusual situation to have two people in the same space on the same mic if you know what I mean. Yeah so I think we're aligned to me in the sense that I fully believe it is not the individual's responsibility. I think the individual is the low hanging fruit in this and that the problem is undeniably the system. and it's a system that we need to attack. I think where we diverge is like, and we're going to hear an example that we talk about in the episode of a girl who posted a picture of ice

and captioned at dinner, Jamila believes that things like that, like the best thing that we can do is ignore that and not give it our time or energy, like pretend that that's not happening and it will go away, it will kind of, you know, kill it off the algorithm. Whereas I don't actually believe that.

I think we have to bring attention to these things and we have to talk about these things because I think, like, a silence in the face of these things is where they are allowed to grow. Yeah. And if we explain explicitly why these things are so scary, why they're so damaging, why people shouldn't be doing this and why people shouldn't be following this, I think that's really important. Yeah. I don't know if, wrongly or rightly.

I don't know if I'm right, but that's how, that's, I feel very strongly about that. And I think we need to, the lines of what's acceptable and what's not acceptable, especially in the world of like skinny talk and what I eat a day in diets, the lines are all really blurred and it can be very difficult to have a level of like social media literacy where you understand this is right, this is wrong. So I think these things need to be talked about. And okay, yes, the ice example is like that is clearly wrong. But I think there are a lot more examples that are like a little bit more ambiguous or muddy.

And I just think we need to talk about all of this stuff. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. And I think, you know, I'm sure everybody will take different things from this interview. But I think on that, activism probably does look different to each of us. And in different contexts, we are very often here that silence is violence, right? So, and that's true in so many instances. And actually to what you're saying there, our voices are important. And I don't know, I don't know if I agree with everything.

I don't know if I, well, I don't know where I land on everything. But I think that in and of itself is incredibly important. And it's something that you and I think are learning. The longer we do this job and the more conversations that we have, we do not need to agree with everyone. I think that's probably going to be the greatest lesson that liberals can learn. It's that we can still like each other and not necessarily agree with everything. And also not to have a surefire opinion on everything.

Because I literally need to go away, listen to this three or four times, and then work out what I think. And I think that's a really good thing. I think it's good to be challenged. But I overwhelmingly thought this was really interesting. and we're so grateful that Jamila came back to talk to us again. Without further ado, guys, here is Jamila. Jamila, hi, and welcome back to the podcast.

Hello, nice to. Do you know you were our second ever podcast guest? No way. God, that was risky biscuits of you both. And of you as well. Yeah, and of you. It was so nice for you to do that for us, actually. I'm thrilled.

Thrilled. Yeah, second ever guest. That's crazy. Now look, you are here today because, well, for a lot of reasons, but primarily because me and you have been having some conversations offline about what's going on culturally around body image and beauty standards. Can you believe we're still fucking talking about this? I know. I know. And I think we should have those conversations in public on the podcast and talk about what's going on. I think also were, there's this like fear of speaking out at the moment because the tide has really turned. Obviously the body positivity, the mainstream body positivity movement of the 2010s

is like been and gone. It is died a death and like thin is back in. Thin is king and it is scary to speak against that. And I just think the more that we speak against that and the more that we have this conversation, the better. And you speak so brilliantly about this stuff through your own personal experience and your activism and what you've been doing online. So welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Sounds like we're going to ease in. I know. I know. I know. Well, I thought we could start with what happened recently with obviously when Serena Williams announced her partnership with Roe Health and basically she became a face of OZMPIC and you wrote about that and you got a lot of pushback for it. Can you explain what happened there?

Yeah, I just posted about the fact that I think it's worrying if celebrities don't disclose the potential side effects that often can be quite extreme with any drug that they're promoting. And normally you do have to do that when you're promoting like a migraine drug or anything else like that. You know, you have to make sure that you stipulate that there is significant risk. And I also thought it was a problem that her husband, I think, being one of the investors or on the board of, yeah, wasn't disclosed. And so it felt just lacking in the transparency that I would want from such an extraordinary role model. And it wasn't really a specific attack on Serena, like she should do whatever she wants with her body. I don't know her health or her personal struggle or journey. but that's all I was calling for

and people just felt very upset that I was weighing in on the issue whatsoever and that's what happened and I maintained that I was completely right and the majority of people did agree with me. I completely agree with you and also the headlines, what you posted afterwards and they were like Jamila slams

Serena Williams and it's actually not what you did at all. No, she could do whatever she wants. It's just the way in which celebrities who are taking money to promote things go about making sure that they provide transparency. We are accountable to that. We're not babies who don't have to be accountable to anything.

Like we have so much, you know, with this great power comes responsibility, so we just have to be more responsible. You've spoken a lot about how your critique or observational posts or whatever often picked up by the media and there's like hugely sensationalist sexist language that's used to say that you're slamming or that you're angry or that you're...

Rips, smashes, slams. Exactly. Like, honestly, it's everything other than bums. Like, I haven't bummed anyone yet, according to the media. It was time. How do you... Like, you stay very sure of your opinion, which is really cool. Like, does it get to you, the sort of push back the noise?

Because it is a bit relentless, but you sort of stay very steadfast and you're very sure that you're right, which is an incredible attribute to have. But I imagine it's quite tiring. I think when people seek to deliberately misunderstand you, that's quite tedious. When you know that people are smarter than that, that is boring. But I think I just don't really crave the approval of anyone other than my dogs. So as long as they like me, I feel pretty upset.

Has that always been like that? Yeah. Yeah. And so I don't really crave the approval of anyone. I don't think I need to be believed or liked or approved of to have the right to state objective fact. And I think that what's really peculiar about our culture is that when someone's saying something that is statistically backed up or factually accurate, for example, if we talk about the violence that men perpetuate against women, those are hard stats that we have, or if I talk about the eating disorder statistics or ageism or all of these things that we know are happening and we have data to back that up, why do you have to like me? Why do you have to approve of me in order to. to listen to the objective fact that I am submitting. It's because that objective fact threatened someone who's funding the media.

And so the only way to destabilise what I'm saying is to teach people that you have to back her in every way as a person to listen to her. Whereas actually, I could be a murderer or a bank robber. And what I'm saying is still true about men's violence against women, about eating disorders, about culture, about racism. All the things I talk about, you don't need. to approve of the vessel but when it's a woman you do and i think that that's really fucked up and that's the thing that bothers me but it would piss me off too much to let that succeed

because too many people are watching me you know i've got six or seven million people watching me across platforms and if i back down they're going to back down and so because i'm uninterested in success or popularity or being liked um i have the stoicism within me to withstand that heat and realized that I like you only have a seat to destroy something that you're afraid of so good for me and good for us it's fascinating to hear someone say that that they're not interested in success in being liked so that don't think that's a common experience I want to be liked I was certainly not a common one on this stuff I desperately want to be liked but but do you want to be liked by people who you don't even like who you don't even know because I want to

be liked by the people I like, but that's like 12 people. So then beyond that, my disliking other people doesn't affect their lives negatively. So why should I have to, well, most of the people who hate me online, I'd probably fucking hate them too. We probably wouldn't get on. Can I ask on that? Because this is something we've talked about before. And I, I cannot unpick it within myself, right? But I think 100% right. When I can't stand your politics or you're whatever and you disagree with mine, I'm like, we can, if that's the division that this society requires, let's go. divided and I really don't care for your opinion just as you don't care for mine and I'm with you there. What I find hard is when if I misstep, misspeak, get it slightly wrong, get

criticism that is perhaps justified maybe as a result of a misunderstanding when you're more in the nuance and more in the grey. Oh yeah, when I've made a mistake and I've hurt people or I've created damage, I care about that, but that's not because I want them to like me. No. That's because I was wrong and I did something harmful and I want to undo it. I understand that. But I think I'm more mean like the sort of confidence to us. operate within that, how do you feel like, how do your feelings feel when those things happen? When when people who are on, you know, because I think we feel very like if we let quote on quote, and I this is we, we massively infantilize and sensationalize the language. So just allow me to do that

and forgive me, sorry. But when we feel like we let down people, our followers or our people on our side or whatever, that's where feelings come into it more for me, certainly. I agree with you on that. Do your feelings come into it there? Or are you just very good at complementalizing? No, I think I really care about justice and I really, really care about doing what's best for the people around me and not failing people the way that I was failed by public figures. So whenever I feel like I've failed as a public figure, that definitely upsets my, like, inner 12-year-old. Because I know, you're being one of them. Stop it, cut it out. You know, she's the one I'm accountable to because I remember so clearly everything she was missing out on that she needed from public figures and I'm always trying to find a way to fulfill that. And that includes my fallibility.

I didn't have fallible women to look up to when I was younger because women had to be so perfect and present as perfect in every way. And I think one of my superpowers is my ability to be imperfect to learn in real time, to have grown in front of an audience of millions on my podcast who watched me start off extremely ignorant and then become slightly less ignorant by the end of five years and grow and change and evolve my opinion and evolve the way that I communicate and admit when I'm wrong and say sorry and offer my mea culpa's. My fallibility is probably one of the things that I'm most proud of for my 12-year-old self to see because otherwise women don't know that we are allowed to fuck up and carry on. We think that we're supposed to, you know, even if we just annoy people, we're supposed to disappear ourselves. And so much of women's cancellation often happens because the woman cancels herself. She's, you know, she's piled onto by the public, but ultimately she withdraws. And I think I want to remind people that you have autonomy and you get to decide whether or not you withdraw.

And men traditionally do not withdraw. And that's why they stick around even when they really shouldn't. And so I wanted to prove a point of withstanding and staying here so that people can see that there's life after death. Like after being cancelled so many times and piled onto by the world, more so by the people I was trying to help than by the opposition that I was fighting because we have such a cannibalizing problem amongst liberals. I got so heavily piled onto during the pandemic. And then I went on to book Marvel to get a book deal, to write a popular substack, to continue growing my following, to continue being a happy person,

to continue to be loved and shagged. My dogs still think I'm great. My friends are still my friends. So it's like there's life after death, but there's not a lot of examples of that amongst women. And so I'm here as like the ghost of cancellations past to be like, you're allowed to fuck up and say sorry. and move on and learn and grow and do better.

Are you an outlier in that? I'm trying to work out if you're an outlier in the sense that you have been cancelled. You have quote unquote said the wrong thing. But I haven't been cancelled. I've been piled onto. Cancellation is the end. I've never allowed it to be the end. Does cancellation exist, do you think?

Cancellation definitely does exist. But it happens normally for less powerful people. It's happening all the time in jobs that we don't hear about where people get fired, where women get fired because they don't accept harassment. it rarely happens to powerful people with public platforms unless they do something really egregious and then they lose their representation or their you know their jobs etc but ultimate cancellation is really not having a way back and most people with privilege do have some way back I think it's really interesting it's a state of mind more than anything else because it's whether

or not you absent yourself and you're right women do do that yeah like Nigel farage this week has been like all the people have come out from his school days to recite the anti-sense Semitic songs he used to sing and how he used to say to the Jewish boys at school that Hitler was right and they should have been gas. And it was the most interesting conversation and depressing conversation listening to how he can navigate this politically and how he is doing to be like, yeah, well, you know, I was young. And it is so fascinating that as you're speaking, you know, to the way that the politics is

in this country and in America also in the Western world, that we are letting these men, quote-unquote, letting them get away with true. truly the most apparent, unthinkable. If you'd have told me as a child when we were studying, you know, what we did, our history, that one day our politicians would be talking like this. Meanwhile, we still have to talk about fallibility and we have to talk about apologies. And we have to talk about this for female celebrities. It does feel encouraging that, you say, you know, that you can sort of, that women can push through it.

I mean, Nelly Fittardo chose to stop touring. I completely understand why. She got so piled onto about her body. And it was so foul. And also, she looks fucking amazing. She's so sexy and beautiful. And I think she looks great. But she has made the choice to protect herself.

But she has cancelled that tour. The venues didn't cancel the tour. People didn't say they wouldn't show up. She made that decision. And that's a decision that every woman has the right to make. But we must accept it as a decision. Women who bow out of going on dates or going on dating apps because they don't feel like they have the perfect body or they might be too old or they don't go for that job.

Like there's so many things that we have to take account. for what we have been trained to bow out of before we even really begin. And I think that something that I've tried to practice in my life is always, always jumping in before I'm ready and being willing to behave like a man. You know, we hire men for what they're going to go on to achieve and we hire women for what they've already achieved. And there's that imbalance in the way that we look at hiring people. And I choose to operate like a man where I'm like, I have potential. Let's see where it leads. I have the confidence in myself to make this work.

And so far I've been underprepared and underqualified for almost everything I've ever done, if not literally everything I've ever done. But I figured it out on the job, just like lots of men do it, and just like lots of women can. I was going to ask you what you think it is about you, I mean, how you've been so resilient, how you've kept coming back after being piled on

and facing so much criticism. Like you come back, you refuse to shrink away, shy away. you refuse to, you know, when it is easier for women to just disappear and go away, it is just easier. And I actually think you answered it by saying that you operate like a man. Yeah. A lot of what you're saying is what a man would sit here and say, like, I'm not interested of being liked. Yeah. And it's like, it's a very sensible approach that they have. It's something that they're getting right, that they taught us to get wrong. And so it's very important. It doesn't mean it's not, like kind of emulation is the highest form of flatter it's not that it's just like i pick and choose

what is sensible in life there's lots of things about the way that men have been conditioned to operate by a patriarchy that i don't agree with and i do not ascribe to but when it comes to basic allowing yourself to be a human who grows and changes and learns on the job and who who doesn't know they're fulfilled that who doesn't know what their potential is until they try i think that's very sensible and so i just pick and choose what i like because all the gender shit is a construct anyway i think I've literally watched so many questions but I want to let you go

I love you both I want to hear all of your questions and I want to answer them all well I'm just thinking that now I would like to operate like a man yeah yeah how would you start

I love to walk down the street like a fucking man Jesus Christ Al would start it's dark at 345 I'm terrified I feel as the media goes

I feel like obviously you know you know and you are very sure of how you're operating and that is I'm not sure of how I'm that's the beauty of me is that I have no idea what's going to happen every day I am more surprised than anyone when things go well or go badly yeah but it's not my responsibility to be

fucking perfect that's not why I was born life is not a test yeah like we are just here to figure out I think I mean sure of yourself and and and and I mean that in a loving way and in a great way and an admirable way you are confident that you are going to do your best and you are confident And in the way that you move, it's like, this is, this is going to work. There's something about it. There's an air to it. I think what you're touching on is the fact that I don't think I owe anyone anything more than my personal best.

Yeah. And that's what it is. What society does is it holds us up to a standard, like an arbitrary standard that's been set for all of us. And I don't ascribe to that because that's fucking bullshit. I ascribe to my own personal best. I'm competing with me. like I'm on my own journey, in my own lane, and nobody comes into my periphery.

I've never experienced jealousy. I've never experienced competitiveness. I don't think, I think we are all complete individuals, and we should all just be trying to do our personal, actual best. And I'm always trying to do my personal best. I have what I refer to sometimes as high self-worth with low self-esteem. I don't think I'm going to amount to much or do things very well, but I have enough self-worth to know that that's not my responsibility, and I'm still a good person that I can love, even if I don't blow the world away all the time, or ever. Has there always been this? You're looking at me in such a funny way.

No, because I'm like, I want that attitude too. I'm like, notes, making notes. I want to be like that. I'm older than both of you. Like, yeah. Well, I'm 40 in like two months. That's exciting. That's what happens when you get to this age.

you become great you just become great you've always wanted to be and I'm not saying that I'm great to everyone but I really like myself now like who I am I know I'm a fuck up I know I'm embarrassing I know I make mistakes like I know I say the wrong thing all the time I've got foot in mouth disease blah blah blah but I like me like I know my heart I know I'm a good person I know that the way I treat people is good I like me and I dare to say that out loud and the reason that that we have to be are raised at my age and I'm supposed to now like pull my face like behind my ears or back to my asshole is because this is the powerful age. This is the amazing age. Like when you start to get your way towards, you know, if you're lucky enough to make your way to the kind of near the halfway point

of life, you know what you want, you know what your standards are, you know what you like in bed, you know what you don't like in bed, you know who you like, who you don't like, what your standards are. Men think they're competing with other men for you. They're not. They're competing with you. It's like my boyfriend has to compete with me for my standard. And so that's why women become scary at this age. They're not disgusted by us. They're terrified by us. And so that's why they want to keep perpetuating this idea, as you know, because you guys talk about this really brilliantly. They want to keep this idea of that, you know, only very young and phantilized women have value. And it's really like, no, it's just because those women are too young to assess your value

and realise when it's a little low, little on the low side. You're saying, Meg, that you're becoming this woman and that you've become her as you've got to this age. Yeah. Was there a point throughout, I mean, particularly during your early career, the industry that you've always been in, where you did feel like you had to conform? Yeah, my early 20s.

But that's only because I was being explicitly told I had to conform. You know, I was forced to hire a publicist. I was forced to do all of these things, forced to dress a certain way, da-da-da-da-da. Every part of my, you know, weirdness and my oddness was kind of pushed out of me by everyone apart from my manager, who's a woman who always stood by me no matter what, and I've been with her for 17 years. But this industry was just, I remember going to this like photo shoot for a men's magazine and saying to them, I'll only do the photo shoot. You know, I come from a Muslim family. I was like, I would only do this

photo shoot for a men's magazine if I have my clothes on. I was like, I can't be in my underwear. And they were like, absolutely, don't worry. That'll be fine. I turn up. And it's all underwear and lingerie. And they were like, I'm so sorry. The like courier company just hasn't delivered the dresses yet. And so you're going to have to be in your underwear. And I was like, well, then I can't do it. And I was only 22, I think, or 23. And they were like, well, we spent 40,000 pounds on this shoot today. So if you don't do it, all these people aren't going to get paid. And like the magazine's going to lose loads of money. And it's going to be really bad for your career. So I had to do it. I had to be in my underwear and they said

they'd cropped me and they didn't really. And I remember the shot that they used is literally a second before I burst into tears on set. But it looks like I'm just about to come. Because it's the same face, I guess. But the point is that, you know, I just wasn't made to feel like I had agency back then. So as soon as I started to realize, I had a choice. was when I was about 26 and 26 is when I changed and I never looked back and I just decided, you know, I had a nervous breakdown when I was 26 and I think after that I was like, right, okay, I'm just going to keep wanting to or trying to end my life if I keep doing things the way I am. So I decided around that time to just flip everything on its head and just do everything

completely differently. And that meant rebelling, saying what's on my mind, misbehaving, getting things wrong just trial and erroring my life just crash test dummying my way through my 30s and on the other side of that i found the happiest i've ever been and the most self-realized i have the most self-sovereignty and i'm the closest to my friends i've ever been i have the closest friendships i've ever had because i everyone knows exactly who i am and that feels really safe and really lovely and my relationship is just unbelievable because i'm able to be a hundred percent authentic. And so it's the best decision I ever made. And it's like the people who couldn't hack who I really am have gone for good reason. Were you surprised when you started

speaking out having opinions online going against the grain, were you surprised that you were still offered professional opportunities? Because I do think that you're unusual in the sense that people, I don't know what you're going to call it, like within the Hollywood circle, like people who are in big movies and have big TV shows, generally they are, I imagine, like, scared to speak out and they don't speak out and they don't have strong opinions and they have to, they have to present a very sanitised version of yourself and that is completely not you at all. No. And I do think it's unusual that you have managed to do both.

And I don't really, I can't really think of anyone else who has managed to do both. And I don't know if it's because they haven't tried because they're too scared to be themselves and have those. those loud opinions. It's not because I'm so talented. I can tell you that for sure. It's because I, it's because my opinion is that most of us can get away with speaking about our opinions.

We're just told it will all go away. I was always told everything will go away and that it will all be over for me. I was always told I only had 15 minutes. I've been in my 15 minutes for 17 years. This is the longest fucking 15 minutes ever. And I'm not saying that I'm at the height of the zeitgeist. but I've had a steady, wonderful career for almost 20 years of being told it's going to be

over soon. It's going to be over soon. It's going to be over soon. So I didn't take holidays and I didn't look after myself and I didn't practice self-sovereignty because I was like, well, it's going to be over soon. It's going to be over soon. Now I find myself getting grey hairs and being like, oh, it's still not over. No, what the fuck? So I'm going to book a fucking holiday and take a fucking break, which is what I've been doing for the last 18 months. But what I would say is that I think if everyone just tried it and started speaking out and using their voices a bit more, if we all do it, they can't not cast any of us. The problem is that they leave it to the few. They go, oh, Jamila will look after that. Oh, Jamila can talk about Palestine. Jamila can talk about body positivity or, you know, fat liberation. Jamena can talk about racism.

And they just leave it to the other one, like the amount of famous women, like massively iconic women, who come up to me and they're like, thank you so much for the work you do. And it's like, you are so much more powerful than me. Can you say something? Can you do something? I'm not gifted enough to do all this shit by myself. I'm not superwoman. I'm just one angry woman. Do you ever get a sense from speaking to those people? Obviously, don't name names, but like, do they want to speak? Do they want to speak out and say they're just scared of doing so they're scared of rocking the boat, they're scared of fearmongered of course they want to speak they're all adult women like they're pissed we saw during the explosion of the me too movement how long women had been waiting to say something but you know they were fearmongered and what happens is people like rose mcgowan or people like myself or people like all these different women like the women who who were really at the forefront of speaking about things if they did anything wrong they were fucking hung drawn and courted in front of the world to make an example of us to be like don't be like her. If you speak out, you'll end up disgraced like Jamila Jamil

or like Rose McGowan or like whoever else. And that's why I kept going. I did want to stop because I was like, this is so exhausting and tedious to be deliberately misunderstood and have so much misinformation put out about you peddled by insecure patriarchal media. But I kept going to prove that that's not true and to prove to other actresses that that's not true.

And now young singers and actresses who were young when I was coming up are coming up to me and saying that like they feel like they can have a voice now because I did and that's really nice. So if I wasn't able to get to my generation, I have at least been able to make some impact, even if it's tiny on the next generation. And that makes me feel happy. How do you feel on like a personal level towards these women?

Because you touched on it before and it's a super interesting thing and you speak on it very well, like the sort of cannibalization of liberal, I'm going to say left, but I don't want to conflate the two things. But the standards that we hold particularly women to are so high in terms of, as you say, you know, you need to be perfect before you say anything. You need to have if you're going to have a, what is it, perfection is the enemy of progress. But we do expect that of women. And if we'll do anything to invalidate with them, right? So they're going to say this, but oh, well, you did that one time. So you're a hypocrite. So I'm not going to

listen to you. And you know firsthand, we know we've been doing it long enough. It is exhausting often to say it and it is scary for whatever reason. How do you feel on a personal level when people don't use their platforms? When people don't want to be part of the conversation for whatever reason, are you able to have sort of an empathetic like, okay, I don't love that, but I understand it? Or is it a frustration that you feel that you want them, that everybody should be using their privilege? It's both. It's both. It's both. I feel deep. empathy towards them because I understand exactly what it's like to be bullied out of saying what you really think. But I also feel so frustrated because I know it would help them and

liberate them. Like these women are all captive to their own trauma that has been heightened by this industry. And then to not be able to speak about it kind of ret traumatizes you all over again. Like you just never get out of it. I feel broken free of all of the trauma that I've been through because I've voiced it. I've given it a name and I've separated it from myself. And so that's how I feel. Again, you are one woman doing, having a million incredibly important conversations. That then puts a lot of pressure on you because you are the one speaking out on so many. How is it then that you, when there are things that you don't speak on, because I don't know, you didn't check your phone that day or it was, you were just feeling unwell or whatever

it is, when your personal life gets in the way of, because you're not the news, but I think there is this expectation with activists that when someone starts talking about one thing, you need to be talking about everything. I mean, I made a huge mistake of trying to weigh in on every conversation that was demanded of me when I first really blew up in activism or social justice. And all that happened is I was sloppy and undereducated and I didn't deliver the message properly and I didn't know the history of what I was talking about and having millions and millions of people's eyeballs on you and you being treated by like, I don't know, like, because I was like one of Time magazine's 25 most influential like you get and all those sort of ridiculous arbitrary things you get treated

to someone who people should listen to and I fuck things up so now I've just made a decision that I'm only going to speak about the things that I am educated or not perfectly educated on because as I said we can scrap in and work it out but in the meantime I go away and I'm learning privately. Can I challenge? Does that make sense? Yeah can I turn it not challenge in a challenge like a challenge challenge challenge but just I'm just to put because I agree. I agree. with you. I just want to push. I just want to understand. I think, and again, this is all asking in the game. Also, can I just call out here? There is an apologetic nature to your questions that I would like to go away. It's because the reason I, and I'm aware of that, the reason I am is because I don't want

this to sound, I don't want this to sound confrontational, because I agree with you. And I think we are at a really interesting point in social justice on. line where the expectations we have for each other and for ourselves are so high. But I think the two things that the two answers there, whilst both right are also both a contradiction, which is, yes, we want everybody to speak up, but you need to be educated or else you risk be a bit of making of us. But I'm not saying perfectly educated. I'm saying you need to scrap in. A hundred percent. I can, I, but if I weigh in heavily as some sort of authority on an issue that I'm not educated on, it's like I learned very quickly. It doesn't mean I shy away from

the subject, but I platform the people who do know about it, instead of myself going on camera talking about it, I'll platform Monroe to talk about trans issues. I will platform body liberation activists to talk about fat liberation. It's like, I'm not in a big enough body to always have those conversations. So I make sure when it's talking about eating disorders, I weigh in because I had an, I had anorexia for 20 years. So it's about making sure that I promote the conversation. I challenge the opposition, but I don't do it as the face of it. I was speaking on my voice on my Twitter tweeting in 140 characters about hugely nuanced subjects I frankly wasn't prepared for. So I'm not encouraging silent. I'm just encouraging not adding misinformation. Yeah.

I think that's what I'm just on the on the answer before about like going to or expecting female celebrities. No, it's really important that you that you pushed for further clarity on that. Because we have this, you know, within ourselves, with not massive platforms, but not small platforms where you do, where you don't speak on everything. And, you know, like on a person, level for me. It's like I was very ill when I was pregnant. So last year I did not, having built a platform on speaking on a lot of issues, I had to protect myself last year because I wasn't well. But you do start letting people down then because you started speaking on some issues when you don't then speak on everything. People get upset with you. And it's a, it's an

interesting expectation that we have of women, definitely. But it's an interesting thing to try and work out within myself. I'm sure that I'm speaking on the things that I think is right. If more of us fucking spoke out, there wouldn't be this much pressure on just a few of us individuals. That's why I was saying earlier that I get so frustrated that they're just like, oh, she'll deal with it. Oh, Monroe will handle all trans issues. Oh, this, but like, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It's fucking ridiculous. You know, your fat friend, Aubrey, like, like, why should she be, you know, one of the only voices and, like, left and, like, fat liberation? It puts so much pressure and on us on those people. And so that would be a huge benefit is if we all spoke out,

they can't cancel us all, they can't punish us all. And then there wouldn't be this much pressure. And what I do is when I get sick, I register that I'm not going to be any good to anyone dead. I have allowed social justice to run me all the way into the ground. And then I have nothing left to give anyone. So it is very important to give yourself mercy and protect your hours in the day or, you know, say like, okay, I'm going to talk about that. I'm going to learn about this thing in my own time and then I'm going to speak about it on substack at the end of the week. Or if I'm pregnant, I'm going to protect my pregnancy so I can be strong and come back stronger having learned all these different things maybe having a new angle to be able to talk to

women about for example pregnancy postnatal bodies all the stuff that you've been so great about so i think it's very important to conserve your energy and live a life with some sort of balance i didn't use to do that and now i realize that i i do have an expiration like within me like i'm i just i can't and i'm not a well person so i need to take little breaks and rest and i can't take on every fight and nor should i have to i direct that energy towards other people who can win the fight. How do you decide which fight to take on? How do you decide what to speak to, what to bring attention to, raise awareness to? How do you decide whether or not to wait into something? Because there are a million things obviously within the world of social justice

that can and should be spoken to. I'm just personally not interested in posting an infographic to shut up my audience. I'm interested in taking on an argument or a fight or a cause that I know I will be interested in and dedicated to in the long term that I can make actual affected change towards. And so I pick a few things that I'm like, I know I have it in me to fight this until the very end. And so those are the things that I personally choose and there's like eight or nine subjects. And I'm like, right, I could talk about this till I'm blue in the face. And I know about this and I can actually create change. I have the right connections. I have the right people. I can get money to the right places. I know I can make a change there. There are other places I don't

have those same connections or don't have that same, I don't know, pull towards, not because I don't care about it, but because maybe I've had a specific experience. And if all of us did that with all of our different specific experiences, then we would be able to cover it all. What's wrong is expecting a few individuals to cover all the issues. We need everyone to do their little circle of things that they can fight about. Do you know what I mean? I think people find that really difficult to comprehend, don't they? Like, I get a lot. You know, you talk about body stuff, like,

and like, great that you're talking about something, but there are far more important things to be talking about. And I'm like, yeah. I think people conflate activism. I think they think that by asking you and by calling you out, I think they then go home and go. I did something today. I've done a really good job.

I called Alex Light Out. So that was my activism. Yeah. I feel like as a misdirect. Well, I mean, I was told I'm not a feminist because I eat cheese. because you don't care about women cows I don't care about women cows I got a lot of shit

because I was vegan for 10 years and then went backwards and vegetarian now my favourite thing I ever got called out for was saying that the Met Gala without Rihanna is like sex or that an orgasm and I didn't know there was a large community

of people who can't have orgasms who were very angry on Twitter does that I'll make you just want to whack your head against it's enough to make you want to poke your eyes out literally I don't take it personally I just look at it as like oh, you're having a really shit day and you're feeling hurt and you don't feel seen. And so this is really just not about me. But I mean, I do this. I disassociate in the craziest areas. Like even rape, right, where I'm like, oh, it wasn't me personally that was being chosen to abuse or assault. Someone was going through a thing and my body was unfortunately there in the wrong place at the wrong time. And what that does for me personally, I'm not suggesting everyone does this, is that it separates.

me from that person and their crime and their story. That is not my story. That is something unfortunately I was there for that now has, of course, made an impact on me, but I don't hold myself responsible in any way to what happened. And so I use that framework for a lot of things that are deeply unpleasant, where someone else is clearly projecting their own shit or their own childhood or their own trauma out onto me. I can tell the difference between when someone actually thinks I've done something wrong and when someone's just like vomiting PTSD on me. And so I'm listening for both and then I decide what is helpful and what is just something they needed to say to get off their chest. And so often I know this is the truth because I respond to people and they're like, oh my God, I didn't think you were going to see this. I'm so sorry, I actually love you so much. And I didn't mean to say that. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. It was like, oh, you just needed to get that off your chest. Isn't it ruining every like that that you're so right. And it's incredible attitude. And it's really important that in your role, in our roles, you keep that perspective because otherwise you would truly lose it. That it's not personal. But.

I just think, objectively, that just seems to be the messy, like we just seem to be completely fucking up any opportunity of progression there because we can't, we're sort of lashing out with our own pain, with our own stress and we just misdirect our wants. Yeah, it's because of the general feeling of powerlessness. And so I think the only way out of this is to continue to encourage people to find their power. And that's why I'm so unapologetic. And so honest about what I feel and think whether it's popular or not, because I'm trying to liberate women in particular. I'm hoping to liberate as many people as I can. I also want to liberate men from patriarchy because they are supreme victims of it and then that bleeds out onto us.

But I want to liberate people and the more liberated people feel, the less likely they're going to need to do that because they can actually go and shout at the person they need to rather than shouting at some random actress online. So that's why I push forward. I just keep pushing forward, keep it moving, keep going. Because ultimately my, you know, I think something that we're not amazing at within social justice is zooming out and looking at the end goal. You know, we're always in the now. And the opposition, the people who are actively taking our rights away are incredibly organized. And they plan things decades in advance. And they meticulously go after our rights, one after the other, after the other. But we can't organize a piss up in a brewery because we're always

in our feelings and always just focusing on what's happening now. And whether our, you know, our feelings are being hurt or if someone's being excluded if we haven't been able to bring all of the issues to the forefront all at the same time constantly. So we're in complete disorder and chaos. And then they're able to just like snipers just pick off one of our rights, one after the other, after the other. And it's happening at warp speed, but not because they're such efficient geniuses. It's because they have a long-term game plan. We have no long-term game plan other than this like weird utopian, never offend, never upset, feeling stick nightmare that we're in. That I was part of perpetuate.

in the before 2020 and then when people started to treat each other like shit during the pandemic I was like oh no I have a footprint in this because I was celebrated for speaking to people in such a dehumanizing way you know I was given awards literally for you know and put on the cover of prestigious magazines etc and so young people or people have thought oh that's how to be successful at social justice and I regret that hugely and so that's why I've been on like a five-year me a culpator saying, I fuck that up. And there was actually a better way to handle that and communicate that. And to speak from the scar, not the wound. What's the antidote do you think to us or like the people within the social justice space sort of tying ourselves up in knots

with each other and, you know, focusing on like how many caveats you put in your caption or whatever. Like what is the antidote to all of that and to like moving past that and moving towards actual something that looks like tangible progress? I just can't be asked anymore. I'm not going to caveat myself to death because I can't make a point. I had to give back a huge book deal because it was so long because of the amount of caveats, defensive caveats that were in it, that I threw it away and I gave the book deal back and I was like, actually I can't write this book. I'm now writing a book again. It will not be sodden with caveats. You either understand me. I'm a clear communicator or you have chosen to misunderstand me, you know, and I do my best to be understood

when I speak, but I also can't make everyone understand me. I can't make everyone agree with me and I cannot speak to every single person's individual experience or angle. And I don't try to and I shouldn't have to. That's why there's lots of writers. There's lots of books. There's lots of movies. There's something for everyone. I might just not be for you and you trying to turn me into a Barbie doll that dresses the way that you want me to dress and acts the way that you're like, I'm not your Dolly. I'm my own individual self. If I resonate with you, great. If I don't, that's okay. I'm not trying to be number one. I'm not trying to have everyone's ear. I'm just looking after my circle and whoever wants to join can join and whoever wants to leave can leave. I don't have any

attachment to that anymore. So I just try to make sure I'm a clear communicator, but not a defensive or apologetic one. I really like that about not being a Dolly. And I think it's a really interesting thing that we do, because we do get it from every angle, right? You get it from a patriarchal, you've got to be. I can see on both of your faces that you're fucking, like, a bit traumatized by it. And I've been there, but I can, thank God that you two have each other and are such strong, wonderful women. But it's, it's so upsetting how much it weighs people down and you are so not alone.

And you are right. I am in the vast minority of people who are able to withstand this, but that's why I do it. It's because I know that it's sort of relatively water off a duck's back. I did almost try and kill me. myself in 2020 over this stuff. So I'm not pretending. I'm not professing to be unbreakable. But that was the turning point for me where I was like, oh, fuck this. It's not worth life and death. I'm just trying to help. If people don't want my help, they don't have to take it. But it turned out, loads of people stayed. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, you know it,

right? It can be the biggest, when you are getting it wrong, quote on quote, right? Like, you had it out recently with the GLP1 stuff with Serena. I've, I can't remember when I mean, I was get it for a man's crimes but you know when that noise is loud it's really fucking loud and it is it is more often than one person can take or should take but I think that's why you need to do these things in numbers because yeah what the one of the other reasons that I don't like to bang on too much about how hard it is or anything else is because it's going to discourage other people who are maybe listening to this podcast from wanting to do it because if we labor and labor how much it is so I think what the more positive approach to do is to say I don't

do this shit alone anymore. And I reach out to Alex, you know, if I'm struggling with something and we need to talk about something, I've built community within advocacy so that I don't feel alone. I don't check all of my DMs. I don't, I've managed to like build a strong practical way to work. I have, you know, Megan Jane Crabb, Monroe, like all these different people that I've come up with. These are the people that we lean on each other. We talk to each other. We go to each other's houses. You know, we, we are there for one another. We guide each other. So just don't do anything on your own, try to join, being part of something and know that it can be glorious to be a part of social justice, to watch difference, to watch change. As devastating as it's been for me

to see that, you know, the comeback of the size zero trend after like 15 years of fighting for fat liberation, it doesn't take away from the great work that we all did and the lives that we changed and the remnants of sanity that's still in even the people who've fallen back down the rabbit hole. That work still remains and I hang on to that. I think more interesting rather than I know worry about putting people away from talking about social justice, considering the people listening who perhaps have been maybe misdirecting or because I think we all need to have a bit of introspection and look at the part that we do play within, you know, the change that we want and what we're asking for. I think it is interesting to hear the perspective that it does

take its toll hugely on the people who are trying to do their best. Well, look at Palestine. Look how few people spoke about Palestine because they got battered down if they didn't, if they tried and they didn't say it perfectly or da-da-da-da-da, whatever. And so then we ended up losing loads of voices. I kept talking about it, but almost everyone I know stopped. So that was a really good example of like, how do you think this is going to go? What's your big picture? I often bring up, you know, when you see like someone's, I don't know, done something wrong on Instagram or Twitter, anyone. It could be a non-public figure. to someone who happens to have gone viral.

And I go through the comment section and I only normally add a comment if I think something that I want to say hasn't already been said. Most of the time what you see is people repeating what's already been said in the comments. It's like, what's the point? Why are you adding your voice to this

to say the exact same thing that's already been said? You know that person's already probably seen it. You're actually virtue signaling to the other people in the comments that you're on the right side, which is basic anthropology, right? We want to be within the group. we want to be within the tribe.

And so we do whatever we can to stay within that tribe. But we don't ever zoom out and think about the ramifications of that where that then just becomes a pile on. No one needs to be told the same thing 100,000 times. You're doing it performatively. It's so interesting seeing the difference between my DMs and my comment section. My comment section is so violent. And my DMs are so loving and so much more plentiful.

I get tens of thousands of DMs a week. And then the comment section, pure violence. it's theatre. It's a gladiator stage. And I think it's because people are insecure and they're looking to have an identity and be, you know, patted on the back. They want that like. They want to be part of something. And so they sometimes join in in ways that are helpful and sometimes ways that aren't helpful. And I've just, I'm just old enough and experienced enough to register what I need to pay attention to. That's super interesting. Really interesting. I've never actually thought about that with the comments. It's so different, isn't it? The DMs are

so thoughtful, so nuanced, so much more interested. And it is performative, of course it is. Why else would it be that distinction? You were a huge voice in the mainstream body positivity movement of the mid-2010s to the, you know, 2020s, early 2020s. Obviously that has, we've massively gone back with, the pendulum has swung all the way to the other to the other side. How do you feel about that, knowing that you put so much effort and time into, and I mean, your podcast was, like, is incredible. You've had so many voices on there and

you did so much work. How does it feel to know that we've gone so backwards? Or is it that piece you just said about knowing that you sowed a seed? But the seed isn't enough. I'm pissed. Yeah. I'm pissed. I'm angry and I'm confused. used because at least in other generations, we didn't know what the root of this was. We weren't educated. We didn't know about bone density. We didn't know about how only 5% of diets ever work and 95% fail. We didn't know the damage to your mental health.

We didn't know that anorexia was the number one killer of any mental illness. We didn't have the information. So even my generation back in the 2000s, like someone could argue that we didn't know what we were doing. There's no fucking way that the world doesn't know this time around. So people are knowingly leaning in on this conversation and building big platforms of it. Look at Skinny Talk.

It's a nightmare. And so it now just feels like a deliberate betrayal. And my sympathy is still there. But it's somewhat interrupted by how the fuck are we here again when we know this much, when we talked about it this much, when we got so far, what's actually going on? And the people who are promoting eating disorder culture are almost acting like they're rebels.

They're like, oh my God, here are some tips to stay skinny. Like, I'm such a bad girl. And it's like, oh, who are you rebelling against? Is it your bone density, your happiness, your freedom? But what's that girl who's like, oh, stay skinny, stay safe. One time I was literally able to not be kidnapped because I was too heavy to lift. Stay sturdy, stay safe. Stay strong.

Stay safe. And I'm amazed that. that this like simping for the patriarchy is being glamorized. It's just embarrassing now. Whenever we start to swing towards conservatism or fascism or authoritarianism, women's rights start to be decimated immediately. Abortion rights normally first on the chopping block. The next thing is to make women's beauty standard be so super thin

that they will be too tired, too distracted and too compliant to resist. And that is exactly what's happening all over again, except this time we know the patterns, we know what's coming on, and we're still willingly doing it. And we're acting like we're cool rebels. Imagine rebelling against body positivity, like the fundamental basis of just like accepting yourself how you are, which also includes disabled people.

Imagine being like, eh, to body positivity, to fat liberation, to being allowed to have a body that doesn't fit the magazine standard. Who are you rebelling against? You're just simping for the patriarchy. That's all it is. And it doesn't mean that the disorder isn't real. And it doesn't mean that weight loss is always the reason behind eating disorders. Like lots of people have control issues.

But again, it's like part of the reason we feel the need to control our bodies is because the world feels so out of control and we're watching our rights being taken away. So let's fight that. And you know how you have the energy to fight that? Fucking eat something. Food. And I don't mean that in a dismissive way. I was anorexic for 20 years.

I know what it's like. I understand how addictive and consuming it is. I have massive, massive empathy for those who are struggling. But for the fucking people with big platforms who are performing. perpetuating and profiting from it, fuck those people. Really fuck those people. Fuck those people before, but now after a decade of information, detailing the ways in which it's going to destroy the rest of our lives,

fuck those people. I'm so mortified. And, you know, all these celebrities who are becoming rail thin, bone thin at rapid rate in Hollywood, the disingenuousness around the, like, you know, we shouldn't be commenting on their bodies. We absolutely shouldn't be commenting that they look bad. or like foul or like unattractive or anything like that.

But I think given how far most of them are going to, how do I say this, I think it's disingenuous to act like they're not glamorizing it given they are going out of their way to show it off with the clothes that they wear, being corsets, namely. When you have people who are already bone thin and rail thin, right? A corset can be a fun way to squidge flesh into a funny shape

for the night. We all have varied opinions on corsets. Fine. But when you are just skin and bone and organs and then you're using a corset to somehow make that teeny tiny body even smaller so you look like you could snap, you want people to notice how tiny you are. You are glamorizing it. You are perpetuating the culture. It's not like everyone's suddenly very ill and then, you know, just going through something. They are going through something, but it's an eating disorder a competition in Hollywood. Also, like, yes, you know, not commenting on bodies, but surely we have to speak to this trend.

Yeah. Which is a huge trend that is like impossible to ignore. And especially when we now have a cohort of influencers who are telling people how you can achieve this. Like, here's how you achieve this. Well, especially if it is. You know, like. Are they telling people to eat ice again?

Oh, it. Yep. Much on ice. I have, like, I actually saw a, I mean, I think I'm in the firing line on TikTok just by virtue of what I do but I saw a girl with a bowl of ice and she just labelled it dinner

and people were like clapping in the comments like good girl like well done I was like this is this is like Tumblr Pro Anna 2013 except I don't think I ever saw anything that's bad no I'd say that's about as bad as it was in the 90s like eat cotton wool tissue paper all these different things like all labeled as discipline

because, God forbid, a woman should have pleasure. Pleasure is a privilege, it's not a right, you know, especially for women. That's why they always have to make a woman who's having like a bite of a chocolate bar and an advert look like she's coming because it's just like, oh my God, she's bloody, Susan's had a bloody bite of galaxy. Jesus Christ, she's going to come. What a crazy chick. She hasn't had a nice moment all day.

So ridiculous. It's just like we don't even know what women's general pleasure looks like. I am on a pure, like, dopamine pleasure hunt in my life. I am really uninterested in this kind of no pain, no gain. I've had loads of gains that required zero pain in my life. Like, I'm really uninterested in this draconian approach to life. And also, you know, something I've been talking about a lot lately is that, like, as a woman, I'm already in danger just for existing as a woman. My life is already endangered.

Someone can cut it short. It will probably be a man. more likely a man I know, right? Statistically. I already have to live in a world in which I feel endangered. I have my period every month. That goes terribly for me constantly. I have bone pain. I have a health problem. I exist within an unfair system. I'm sad for the world. It's like, life is already shit enough. Why am I going to then inflict more on myself? And that's the thing that I most regret about my 20s is that so much of what my pain was, was, it was self-inflicted. And I understand that she, as in my 20-year-old self or whatever, you know, she was sick.

But at some point, we have to be accountable for ourselves. And now I very much so live for my 85-year-old self. I want her to know that I'm excited for her arrival. I'm preparing for her arrival. I'm starting to lift weights. I want her to be strong. I want her bone density. you know, I've got osteoporosis from starving myself for 20 years, which means that I'm

incredibly brittle. That is reversible somewhat. So you can lift your weight, you know, lift your weights back out of it. I don't know if that's the right way to say it. Lift your way out of it. Somewhat, you can reverse it somewhat. So everything I'm doing is to prepare for being like a strong, crazy old bitch. You know, that's the plan. That is the plan is just to be strong and furious and fun and wild and to be able to go on adventures and not be afraid of a staircase when I'm older

should I be so lucky to get there if a man doesn't murder me first. That's why I feel the same way about filler and Botox and facelifts and everything like all these different things that have any kind of risk

I'm like, why would I do it if there's any kind of risk is my life not risky enough is being a woman not risky getting the bus at night not risky enough is going for a walk after 345 in the winter

are not risky enough. I'm going to go and risk my life. Risk getting facial paralysis or all the painful things that can happen. The women who died because of the BBL. I know what anorexia does to your body. I know what malnutrition does to your body. I lived that life.

It was miserable. None of it was worth it. Savage. And I looked, you know, I felt like finally I feel good enough about my body that someone can shag me, but I was too tired to shag. Can I ask you both something

just while I had the opportunity to talk to such powerful advocate? within this space, when you're talking to how the Hollywood red carpets are looking and these women who are perpetuating, glamorizing, what is clearly an eating disorder, at what point does her personal responsibility, does her illness avail her of accountability? How does that, how do we level that? When we look at the culture as it is, how do we, you know, the girl who's eating ice, she's clearly not well. At what point is it her fault, how much criticism can we level at the celebrity's

influences who are clearly victims? It's a fine line. And I learned a few years ago that there's absolutely no point in holding the individual responsible. What we have to do is be vocal about the system and say, we do not like that. We do not like that. We do not think it's cool. And we're not going to buy stuff.

And we're not going to give you our algorithmic attention. So that to me is like, you know, speaking of starving, starve them a bit. attention. That's the way to do it. Don't even comment angrily underneath it. Just kill their algorithm. That's what you do. You send the message that we are not interested. We do not attack someone who's clearly going through something. We do not hold individuals responsible. Obviously, you know, for example, my back and forth with the Kardashians over the years, it's like they have the biggest platforms in the world. But ultimately, these are people who are also victims of the system, my holding one of them accountable

which I only did a few times the media just always made it sound like we were in a constant battle doesn't change, doesn't actually address the system so all of my obsession is about the system is about the general picture of what's going on and us resisting as a public and going, no, we don't like that

because as long as there are the yes queens underneath the ice eating video then that person's going to be reaffirmed that oh people like this I'm going to keep doing more of it and other girls will go oh, this is popular content, I'm going to keep doing more of it. We have to resist as a mass.

And we can do that because we know during the body positivity movement, we were able to sway marketing towards stuff that was really meaningful for a while, or at least much more meaningful than this shit. So we have the power. We just forget that we have the power. We have to make the decision as to whether or not we are going to buy into this. And if we stop giving it our attention, it will go away. And I actually believe, you know, what's going on at the moment with the wigswomen,

with the wicked tour and the general like a Zenpic Olympics that are going on in in Hollywood at the moment. I think that it's become so extreme what we have seen this culture of super skinny is doing to women that we love. I think it might be a turning point because suddenly my feed is full of girls going, fuck this. Fuck this. I don't want to be part of this. I want to love my thighs. I want to love my stomach. I want to enjoy food. I don't like women aren't resisting all over again and it feels like 2018. And so I think that I think we have hit a point of extreme where now we can actually see. We needed to see probably as a public how far it could go. And hopefully nobody's going to die of anorexia before we actually all have a big conversation

about this. The conversation is thankfully brewing now. And it's not about holding the cast members of Wicked accountable. It's not about the individuals. It's about going, what are we doing that this is what someone thinks will get them positive affirmation? where are we responsible as the public in this and taking that power back and redirecting it so that people feel safe to fucking eat again? There are teenagers who are watching us and I feel very, very concerned about what they're seeing

and I do feel grief and anger that the women in Hollywood do know better this time around they do know what they're doing and they are going out of their way to flaunt the weight loss and even just like standing literally like almost shoulders touching which is something I used to do when I was in my early 20s when I was anorexic to be like look how deep my clavicles are I've done that I can see all the poses I can see all the signs I can see all the ways that it's happening I still go to do that sometimes you know and I have to stop myself because it's just like muscle memory totally totally

you know like but and sometimes a dress like that I wears like there's nowhere to put my hands other than on my hips otherwise I'll cover like a part of it but you can see that people are doing in such an extreme way that they want their sternum showing, they want their clavicle showing. So it's like, this is becoming a competitive arena over an aesthetic that made everyone miserable and sick for 20 years. Like we have the data. Can I ask you something?

Because you're in a really unique position where you are an actress and you are doing red carpets and going to like events where celebrities are. You're seeing this firsthand. We are, I mean, we're seeing it and we're shocked by it. but we're almost, we're distanced from it a bit. What does it like to see it up close? It's terrifying.

Right. It's terrifying. I went to Fashion Month and I literally didn't recognize some people that I was friends with. They would come up to me and I literally didn't know who they were. They've had so much work done and they'd lost so much weight that it took me like a second. They had to announce themselves to me. Like people I've known since like 2013. And I was stunned and I was so depressed afterwards.

I was like, I don't think I can do this again. I don't think I can go again. all I'm seeing everywhere and forgive me for how judgmental this seems is obedience when I'm looking at everyone being super skinny fighting time fighting gravity trying to achieve eternal agelessness all I see is obedience and compliance and submissiveness and I used to crave that aesthetic and now I really don't from a place of spite and a place of self-respect and a place of dying before I want to submit in the neck like where I want to sacrifice. my health to submit to an insecure, weak and quite unattractive patriarchy on mass.

So I can't believe that the gatekeepers of the beauty standards do not meet the beauty standards at all. So why do we have to? And I'm sad to see how obedient and submissive it all is. And I think that's what we should be naming it. And I think it's really important that we rename it as obedience. It's like, good girl, good girl, all the people under the girl, you know, who's eating ice, good girl. That's what they're really saying.

Not go girl, it's good girl. And I don't want to be anyone's fucking good girl. It is my most important message right now in the world is that we reframe this. A bit like when I got the deep fake porn, you know, made of me and I found out about it. because Channel 4, like, reached out to me to let me know. And I was like, how'd you find that? But then after crossing that awkward bridge, I decided I didn't really want to go and make a documentary

about how I'm a victim of this thing. Because I was like, I'm not the victim here. I was like, the losers who are making this in their mother's houses are the victims of society. I was like, we need to pity them. We shouldn't fear them. They're not Batman villains. they're sad men

who think this is the closest they're going to get to a woman and they're spending their time in their free life putting my head on someone else's boobs like when they were six years old there's just no way that that's ever what they hoped for themselves

there's no way that they were like I want to be Batman I want to be a doctor I want to be a fireman none of them wanted to be a creep in a basement like playing like I don't know

playing around with people's tits and asses and faces yeah But no one wants that. And so reframing it as like, are you okay, hon? Immediately caught hold of the internet. And now that's what women are saying. We're like, oh my God, men are crashing out.

I mean, there's no one's okay. No, they're crashing. No, they're crashing. Like, this is a cry for help when someone's doing that. They're not cool. It's so lame. It's so sad. Obviously, we should take it seriously legally because children get used in these types of videos,

etc. All kinds of horrors. But our narrative should be like, what are you doing? And I feel the same way with glamorizing and perpetuating eating disorder culture, not just a bit of weight loss or being slim or being athletic, whatever. Perpetuating eating disorder culture, it's like, who are you doing this for? This is so embarrassing. This is like, this is what they want.

This is what the patriarchy wants. The patriarchy wants women to be small and fragile so that men can look and feel big and strong. It's like, why are we submitting? We should be getting as strong as possible. we should be learning how to fight. We have a huge, like, long road ahead to win our rights back that have been far stripped from us and it's coming to the UK.

Everything that's happened in the US is coming to the UK. All the same people are now starting to get involved in our politics. We have a huge fight on our hands. Like we need to learn how to physically defend ourselves. We need strong body, strong minds. Don't be, don't submit, man. Don't be compliant. Don't be obedient.

We can't be exhausted and hungry. No, when I see a word, woman just exist in her body. I just think, oh my God, that's so sexy and so cool. If I may add to what you're saying as well, it's like it's so misguided as well. It's like we know what makes humans happy, like at the heart of it. What makes humans happy? And that's like connection. And we believe, we are led to believe truly that the happiness is going to come from like looking a certain way or hitting this certain number. I've been a size zero. is the most miserable time of my life. It never happens. There's no pot of gold at the end of the

rain though. Not only does happiness not come. You don't come. You're too tired. No. Oh God. It's a nightmare. I had a cumless 20s. Way too sick. Yeah. It's nightmare. Too sick. Yeah. It's so ill. Yeah. Caught everything. So frail. So brittles. It's not. Scared of everything. Brain dead. Yeah. You know, so anyway. Listen, we, I think we're all on the same side here, which is great. And I really appreciate you wanting to have the conversation and. Oh, I've loved it. Me too. I've I've loved every second of it. As you guys have been speaking, my stomach is, rum, I can hear it. I'm so hungry.

I'm like, this is all great, but guys, I need to go and eat something. You've sold it to me well. You need tater tots. Thank you so much. You can't do anything when you're hungry. Nothing happens. I'm like, I know. Tell me about it. But I do think, as to people who are at the forefront of this conversation, please join me in shifting the narrative to this is lame.

Yeah. This is like, this is actually like you're not, we're not scolding anyone. No. That's not, that doesn't work. Scolding does not work. I know I was the queen of it. We need to, we need to like re-frame the narrative of like, think about who we're serving.

Simping for the patriarchy. Who were serving? Very cringe, deep cringe. Yeah, it's a big ick, isn't it? Yeah. Such an ick. Yeah. And I'm talking, again, not about having an eating disorder,

perpetuating eating disorder culture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the glamorization of it. Yeah. Yeah. Wanting to be infantalized for who? For men? Give me a break.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I don't love that. I don't love that. And when I try it on myself, I'm like, no, that doesn't fit. Take that back off. Yeah. I want to be big and strong.

What did you say? You want to be a big wild bitch. What did you say? I don't know. Probably something like that. A big strong wild old bitch. That's exactly what I want to be. Jamila, thank you so much.

Oh, thank you. Thanks for coming on again. We've absolutely loved having you. And just in case anyone's afraid, I've got amazing men in my life and an amazing man in my life who never wants me to be smaller or to look younger. he's not a nonce he is it's a low bar not a nonce but there's something very noncy about the current beauty standard and I'm so happy to be with a real man who's looking for a real woman and those people do exist out there if you're in a I don't know if you're in a relationship with a man um lesbians tend to have much

happier healthier beauty standards between them but just know that you're this this is a lie that you're going to be alone forever and it's always being perpetuated by men that are alone because their personalities are so shit no one wants to have sex with them unless they've been paid oof that hits a note doesn't it given current climate I like it thank you for having me

thank you very much what a closing note thank you so much should I delete that as part of the ACAST creator network