Should I Delete That? - Jamie and Shaaba: A beautiful trans love story

Episode Date: July 24, 2022

This week the girls chat to iconic couple Shaaba and Jamie. We hear their love story: from being best friends, to Jamie coming out as trans, to him professing his love for Shaaba. Due to Shaaba’s family having problems with their relationship, they had to make some pretty bold commitments to one another at a young age. Em can't wait to adapt their gorgeous love story into a film! Would suggest staying until the end to hear a pretty brilliant outtake.The girls join us from the Isle of Man and talk about mental health, grief and puffins…Check out Shaaba and Jamie's website hereThis episode is sponsored by WUKA, use the code SIDT20 this week to get 20% off your first order!Follow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Oh my God, why did I post that? Ah, I don't know what to do! Should I delete that? Yeah, you should definitely delete that. Hi, guys. Hi. Hello. Hello. In Thursday's episode, we talked about Onlyfans,

and it feels only appropriate that we come to you today for today's episode from My Bed, which we're in together. We are in the Isle of Man which is where Em's family's from and that's got to be my good because we're in the most beautiful place it's so serene and peaceful and I just had

and I don't know why I just had the best night's sleep of my entire life yeah you slept for days I slept until 922 unbelievable I get and you left last night at like 10 something literally coming on for 12 hours I know I on the other house

I went to bed at 12 and woke up at 6 okay not ideal not stunning but I'm okay it was my birthday though yesterday That's why you came out. That's my good, I think. That was really fun. We went to the beach.

We had cocktails. We went swimming. Chips and swimming. It was unbelievable. Me, Al and Georgie got in the sea, like little mer people. And we swam. Murt people. Yeah, I mean, it was literally like about half a foot deep and we're all like live on our

Tommy's like, oh God, we're so amazing. We had a paddle board. We went, yeah, we could move because the fin was stuck in the sand. But we went paddle boarding and I was heroically paddling and Al stood up on the back of my board and obviously we both ate shit because of and George was on the other board and she also ate shit at the same time as we did so that was like pretty embarrassing because we're the only people mad enough to be in the city. Yes and it also came as quite a shock I didn't think we were going to fall in. How did you not think we were going to fall in? It felt extreme. It was an inevitable outcome

almost as inevitable as the second time when Georgie and I were on one paddle board each and Al put one knee on each board which obviously went terribly but it was great, it was so nice to be like really silly yeah and even

embarrassing and it was so cold but there is something so nice about cold water yeah maybe that's why we slept well I slept well I slept well yeah sorry speak for yourself I love it and I always forget how how great

it makes me feel. I think last summer was the first... And I've been coming here my whole life and last year was the first year I swam here because I just thought like it was insanity. But now I'm like, oh my God, it's just... It's just magic. And even though it's horrible

and like your nipples literally hurt because they're so cold and like your nails go blue. It's far in a weird sort of way. It's weird though because when you felt like when it's up by the shore, like up on the beach bit when it's really shallow

like that's okay but the furthering you get and it gets so cold And it's the first time I've ever, like, lost my breath. It was so weird. But you know, you see, like, the Wimhoff people and the people that go in the thing, and they're trying to breathe, and you're like,

I don't really get it? But you really do lose your breath, don't you? Yeah, it's not a life that I like... I like it when I do, it's Braddockly in July, but I'm, like, my granny, my mum's mum, who's from here, she would go swimming every morning in a swimming costume, come rain or shine in the Irish day. Winter.

Every day. Yes, I could, I could... I didn't inherit that. I got a fair weather jean. Yeah, no. I mean, it was like sunny yesterday. We're in the height of summer. Had a little cocktail and some chips and then we go in.

But not like, couldn't catch my breath. But you go first thing in the morning. Every morning. Jesus. Not even giving the chance, the sun a chance to warm the ceiling of the water. I actually follow a man on TikTok who does that in the Manchester Canal. Can you imagine? He does it at 5 a.m. every morning in the depths of like,

whenever I just I actually don't get it I think it would be amazing for your mental health I have no doubt about that but like it's also nice in a wetsuit I love something in a wetsuit I got into it in a lockdown I used to hate open water swimming but I got into it lockdown I think because it was just like obviously I was running a lot but like I don't know it's just cool it's so much to get into a wetsuit though more of a fath to get out of one and to get it off we went to a water park on handy and we had to wear one and we had to put them on and they were wet from the people before us it was so disgusting it was like slimy like one of the most brutal things that ever happened to me

is at that water park and Elsa who's like basically my honouring niece we were at the water park and we were taken it for a nice day and it's just some restrictions were easing and we were all a bit giddy because we'd have a lovely day out of the house and we've been in the sea

and the fucking audacity of this infant we were just getting changed and I was like I'll do me a favour else would you just hold the towel up while I got changed took my trousers off took my wet suit off basically

took my swimming costume off so I was literally naked as the day I was born And she went in and I was like, yes, so she was like, do you want to see a magic trick? I was like, yeah, go on then. She just drop the towel. No, no. I was like, that was fucking brilliant. I'm so angry, but I'm so proud of you.

That is amazing. I can't even be mad. That's hilarious. I'm not even mad. I'm impressed. What a legend. I know. Honestly, I could have killed her, bless her.

It's so funny. But yeah, so it was sunny, isn't it? Absolutely stunning. That's so good. Yeah, we had a nice birthday. We did. here together, my, yeah, my bad, oh God, it's been a, it's been a sad week actually, even in spite of all the good, and I'm really happy that we have the good to counteract it, but we lost my

auntie yesterday, which was, which was horrid, because obviously, like, made worse by the fact it was on my birthday, and also waving my cousin's birthday, which is her daughter, we just have the same birthday, so that was a very sad thing, and then we had Debts's funeral on Wednesday, which was the day before my birthday, so it's just been a bit like... Very emotional week for you. Very emotional week.

Yeah. Very emotional. I'm a mess up. Yeah. I'm a mess. Kind of holding it together and then I'd sit and cry. When I was flying back from the funeral, because I flew back on the same day.

I flew Wednesday morning. I got like a 6 a.m. flight and then I got the 8 p.m. Well, I'm supposed to be 6pm, but airport chaos. Flew back in the evening. And I just, I was like, this is my, this is my music video moment. sitting on the plane just sobbing. Were you by the window?

I was, yeah. You're always going to be by the window. You've got to be. Anywhere else, it's fucking weird. But you're just sitting in the eye. It's so embarrassing. Imagine just sitting in the middle seat, crying. Oh my God, everyone would be like, the fuck.

But when you're by the window, totally appropriate. If not, celebrated. Also, you would never be in a music video in the middle seat. You just wouldn't. No, you have to be by the aisle. Oh my God, should we make a music video? She's always of all the things that wouldn't happen. Just sit and crying in the middle.

see, sobbing. Oh no, bless you. That's a really, really rough for you. No, it was. Yeah, I mean, I felt I was saying, the lad next to me, like, on the other side of the aisle. I was sitting by myself, like, by the window, there was no one next to me. And obviously, he'd watched me, like, crying as I got on the flight. And then

as we were landing, it was so turbulent. And he was, obviously, like, registered to me crying and thought, like, we should worry about her. And as we started coming into land, he was like, don't worry. Turbulous happens all the time. And I was like, okay, and he was like, no, honestly, it's going to be fine. The pilot handles this all the time and I was like,

you're definitely talking to yourself, aren't you? And he's been on for so long being like so nice. Like, honestly we're going to be fine. Imagine how many times a day this pilot does this? We're going to be fine. I was like, oaky dokey. As long as you're sure. That doesn't happen in the music videos either.

Bless him. But yeah, it was, and the funeral was obviously absolutely beautiful but just as heartbreaking as you'd have imagined it to be. Yeah. But it does just make you realize, I think, like obviously Debs was such a lover of life and like that's something that she taught me even when she was alive you know I think often like we take lessons from people when they die

and it's a shame because we should take lessons from people while they're alive too we should tell them that and I think that was something that we all would have always said to Debs anyway but she was was and is such a force that made you want to just live a happy life and I really felt this at the funeral just sitting there like I want to be happy and I want to be proud of myself and I want to love very deeply and I want to do the things

that matter and the things that make me happy and make me smile and I think like I really feel like that I think with the funeral and then with my Auntie Rose yesterday as well you just like you realise what's important and I've definitely been getting bogged down in stuff recently that I just

and I really just had these moments probably during my music video where I was just sitting and I was just like that's not important like bitch is slagging you off or you know feeling insecure or any of what it is and getting imposterous and I'm like this isn't what I'm here for

and this isn't what like I want and I want to be a person that I'm proud of and I want to do things and make me happy and it was I felt it felt really special yesterday like just like swimming and just doing stupid shit with you know without really a care for like it was a Thursday afternoon

sometimes like just bunking off and like just having fun is really special and it feels all the more like for me to be around my friends now just feels very like this is what I want my life to be and I just want like to make the most of every day and that's all very deep and heavy but no it's beautiful though that's beautiful and I think it's it's remarkable what this woman Deb's yeah has done for so many or like how many perspectives she's shifted because because I didn't know her, and she's done that for me as well. I feel like, you know, in a small way. Like, I just feel like she was, and while she was living as well, even though she was dying, like, there were so many lessons to learn from her, and she just, yeah, it's incredible. It just feels like it just makes you want to live a happy life. I don't know, you know, you don't often get that choice,

you know, sometimes when things feel sad, you don't feel like you have a choice to be happy. and even though I feel a lot of sadness like I feel a great heaviness I feel very sad for my mom I feel very sad for my cousin and for my uncle like I feel very sad about a lot of things

I also like it's very special that you can choose to also feel happiness because that's we're so lucky to be alive and I never stopped and thought about that enough but like it's like what Brian he said in that interview we did a really long time ago and it's just like your chances of being alive and like one in a million trillion you know what I mean

like it's so small and we're just so lucky, and none of it makes any fucking sense. So you might as well just like, just like hold on and have fun. Oh my God, like, what are we going to do this afternoon? Should we just go and have some of them? I just want to cry. I know what we're going to do. We can't have a shit afternoon.

We have to do something epic now. We do talking about this. It's going to be huge. So embarrassing if you're just sitting indoors. Do you want to like, just watch TV? No, do you want to go like Skype? There's a bunch of bunch of bunch of, okay. No, no.

We don't have to. Do you want to go to the sweet shop? I'll go to the sweet shop. Charity shop. There's a charity shop that I really want to go to. Okay, okay. We'll go to the shoplight. We'll be fine.

We'll do something great. But yeah, I think as well, the older I get, even though I'm still youngish, but the older I get, I think about, like, those, like, two sides coexisting of, like, it's okay to be sad about something, but it's also, like, you can find happiness in other things. I don't know, man, the world's just coconuts, isn't it? I know, I feel very existential now.

I know. I'm going into a spin. Shruck. Yeah. enough to make you believe in like fate or astrology or the stars or something don't don't push me alex yeah no not today not today satan um but yeah it's it's interesting isn't it anyway that's that's a bad that's also a good like i'm going through a very like confusing and emotional time but on balance i think it's going to be okay and happy i think it's going to be happy yeah and i think

like those, those confusing and emotional times is when you get, like, real clarity. It's when you grow. It's when you grow. Fuck this. Tell me something awkward. You're a little flower. Tell me something bad. Let's get me out of this because I'm going to go into, like, some huge spiral. Okay. And I can't tell you with any confidence if it's going to be an up one or a down one.

I'll tell you my awkward, actually. Don't be your awkward. Ages ago on the podcast, ages ago, my good. Okay, my good was that I'd found, um, Yoga Nidra and it was this like kind of like meditation that is meditation but also isn't and it's basically one meditation that I can actually do so I was like it's changed my life it's like this is me like I'm going to buy shares in it I remember it was huge yeah it was huge anyway you were looking at time shares in Bali weren't you literally like this is my new life I'm going to run a tree

I'm off I'm leaving and I someone messaged me me on Instagram either day and they were like oh I'm just listening to old episodes and do you mind giving me the spelling of that name of yoga you've just found and it suddenly I've made me realise that since that episode since that good I haven't used it I haven't done it once not once I was like oh my god it was my good I said it changed my life and then I never did it again it was huge like I had a week of doing it twice a day and then I don't know never used never again oh that's so good

I have two awkwards this week go on yeah so I was reminded of this awkward which is so bad that I'm actually going to pull it forward so okay on Instagram we might have seen

on Tuesday I went on a boat trip and it's a really cool thing and next time you come here we'll go on the boat and you go on a boat and you just like have a little tour and you can go and look at like well there weren't any dolphins but if there were dolphins you can see dolphins

or whales or basking sharks you can just go and see the nature right you can see the birds and then you can go to a little abandoned island where nobody really lives but there's like birds and stuff there and lighthouses it was absolutely great right and we went this year we saw poor places and it was a very cool so i've now been twice did it last summer and did it this summer and it's really fun and it's run by the guys who do the lifeboat and it's great anyway i've forgotten but i was so excited because i'm i don't i like the shit

i like the sea i'm a water baby anyway i was excited and i was telling everybody and it just reminded me as i was singing the praises of the trip last year on this island well on the calf of man which is a little bit that sticks out the side of the islandam. They encourage puffins to come back. They're our puffins. I think they're absolutely adorable. I think they're stunning. I think their beaks are so cool.

They're just great. I just fucking love puffins. So I was so excited. And last year we were on the boat trip and Jason, the guy running the boat trip, was like, oh, we're trying to encourage puffin, like puffin groups or whatever to come back to the island. So, you know, look out for puffins.

I'll just Google puffins. Aren't they adorable? In my head, I was like, they're bird penguins. They are, aren't they? They're literally, I mean, penguins are birds, but we won't dwell on that. Okay. But, yeah, they're gorgeous. They're lovely.

And I was so excited. And so he was like, yeah, basically look out for puffins. Yeah. They could be puffins. But I'm not sure I understand. Well, stay with me, you might. So we were really excited at my mum and I, and we went for this walk around this island, and we looked over. This was last year.

We got to the other side of the Carford Mountain, which is this abandoned place, and we looked over the fence. And we were like, oh my God. What? Puffins. Puffins. We saw these puffins. and we were like, oh my God. How big are they?

Well, they're like puffin size. Like, they're not very big, they're like, tennie bears. Sorry. They're like, really helpful. Yeah, they're like teddy bear size, right? They're like two sunny next to each other, and then there's one a bit further away. And they were like, a fair few puffins.

We were like, oh my God, got my phone out, took some videos, took some photos. I was like, I cannot believe. I've seen puffins. Jason said they're like, never here. This is amazing. I can't wait to tell him. I think I know this is going. With a ringing my step.

I was like running by. I was like, oh my God, Jason, you won't believe that we saw puffins in here. It was like, no way, where were you? And I was like, look, I'll show you the photos. We'll be on the lighthouses. You know what they were, Al? Pigeons. No, no.

Fake puffins. You're joking. The puffins that they use to encourage the real puffins to come back to the island. That's worse than I thought. I know. And it didn't occur to us once that they hadn't moved.

They were dead still. They were literally statue still. And we'd take. making photos like oh my god look at them like quiet as my sirs not to scare them but how embarrassing how embarrassing and it only as we went back to see jason this year i was like oh my god how am i going to look this man in the eye again after being a fucking moron last year did you see them again yeah still statues okay yeah yeah yeah still there obviously they're still there where would they go they're not real so embarrassing but then i also have one of i have an awkward which is

alex's which i'm just telling you because um it's fucking foul he was just, you know he's got his little envisaline before the wedding he's absolutely loving it, his teeth are looking so good and so different and he's just got a Hollywood smile now he's looking fantastic, loving his teeth anyway, took off his envisaline to have his morning coffee

had a shower or whatever, you know as you do came back in, put his invisible line back in he just left him on the, in this room that we're in he just left them on the mantelpiece, just left them there put them back in a little bit later he smiles at himself in the mirror at least he's something black in front of his front tooth

and he takes out his embeciline and he realizes there was a spider in the retainer which he spice against his own front tooth so how big little

tooth size a bit smaller two size that's big find smaller you have to ask him I actually didn't ask details I was just like that's fucking heinous go brush your tooth

you murder that's absolutely horrible I mean, yes, number one, he killed the spider. Yeah. Also, number two, he was walking around when the spider schmustigates his two. It's about as bouncing gets. Like, you think having spinach in between the two spiders. Wow.

What's that? Oh, gosh. It's a spider. It's a spider. Just like eight legs. Just like, it's actually pretty foul. Would like to circle back, however, to, why was he smiling at himself in the mirror?

Sorry, we brushed over that. He was just smiling at it. himself in the mirror. I feel like I'm doing him really dirty. I don't know. Why not? You know, what do they say? Smiles, raised him. Well, he might not be smiled. I don't know what else. Why else his teeth? I don't know. I'm assuming he was smiling.

Maybe he was looking to see if he had anything going to see. I don't know. He just saw something black. I don't think he was there just like, Hey you. Hey, you. Maybe he was looking at his beautiful new teeth. Yeah, maybe. Okay. They're not stunning.

There again. Can I just say. actually on a male appearance and like male I don't know not mental health but like body image body image it's actually made the biggest difference and I absolutely love that yeah he was always he just didn't like his teeth

and it always really upset me that in every photo like it didn't matter like I could look fucking stunning and he just zoom in on himself and be like oh I just hate my teeth top teeth or bottom teeth his top teeth but he just you know they were fine they were fine but like one of his front teeth kind of just like went face slightly the wrong way

and honestly all of because I'd say it to friends and they'd be like, wait, what? Like, his teeth are fine, but it's one of those things that in yourself, you notice, and I, I noticed it because I had to, because every time you looked at a photo, it's so you know, they're like, I'm like, I'm like, fucking hell.

Isn't that so funny, though, because, like, I've never noticed that. I know. Like, I'm, like, I don't, I can't, I just never notice that. It is so funny. So, like, when people say, like, honestly, you just don't notice, it's true,

but it doesn't matter because it's how you feel about yourself. Yeah, and now we have, like, no, like, you look at photos of us, and you can, that's it. full stop he doesn't care no and it's so nice and I wanted that for the wedding

so badly like I really wanted him to have it before the wedding so that he could smile at the wedding and feel confident and feel really confident yeah

love that yeah it's lovely so that's nice I feel like men know about that stuff no they really don't do you know what I was talking to someone

about this either day my friend who has lost his hair like just male pattern baldness I think is just receding like aging whatever

which happens to so many men and it is a real confidence killer for them for a lot of people because men don't really have that much in the way of things they can do to make themselves feel better about their body image so women have access to a lot of more things which in itself comes with its own problems

that's not necessarily a great thing but they a hair is a huge deal for them and at least like in an image focus society although those things aren't great like we still have the resources and it's like if you've got a spot you can put concealer or on. Exactly. Yeah, if you're embarrassed about one thing, you can kind of distract

with another, but yeah, you're right, this can't do, like... Right, it's like their hair, their teeth, well, I'm actually surprised for how many of my boyfriends really care about their teeth. And it's really coming up, like, oh, and the people, because we whitened, like, our teeth before I did it, no fucking shame. Like, I broke my

jaw, like, Jesus Christ, I needed teeth whitening after that ordeal. And I've talked really openly about it, and obviously Alston is invisible, and he's absolutely loved it, but the amount of times we now talk to friends, and they're like, oh my God, like, how did you do it? And it's like a real fit. I don't know why, like, British people just always seem to have, like, shit teeth,

but I think, like, that's a stereotype, isn't it? Yeah. But, like, now we're talking about it, so many people are like, oh, my God, because it does make such a difference if you're happy in yourself. For sure. Because if you're self-conscious, you're smart. And, like, I definitely was. Like, I had braces for, like, seven years when I was a kid.

Did you? Yeah, I had to have, even before I had my jaw broken last year, I had these braces, right, that went from the back of, um, my back tooth, across the roof of my mouth to the back of my other tooth at, like a bridge and every day my mom had a tiny little spanner and she had to wrench it

until it opened my jaw so I woke up one morning with a gap between my teeth like fucking Madonna except I was 11 and like kind of ugly and then she had to get the spanner again and wrench it back closed again to like snap the roof of my mouth basically so like even before last year's surgery

like I've always had problems with like my jaw basically yeah you've all you've had so much shit going on in your mouth Yeah, it's mad, isn't it? Because actually, my teeth, perfectly healthy. I've never even had a filling. Oh, you're not? No, it's so weird. But then my, I had root canal because of some nerve damage to one of my teeth during the surgery, which was fine.

But, yeah, I've always had problems, and I really understand. Because then I had to have train tracks after that for, like, yeah, I'm coming on five years. And I was always so self-conscious. So it makes such a difference to me now to have, like, when I got that root canal, because my front tooth had started to die after the surgery, it went a bit grey. and now like all my teeth are like straight and white I just I'm so happy now yeah I'm so happy

it's just something you just don't even have to think about no and I'm like I want that for everybody if they want like if it's what we're talking about if it's something that you're self-conscious about I want everybody to have access or the confidence to go like particularly for boys to go and like look into their options and I know if it's not as expensive but you know you can pay in installments and stuff and yeah so

it's just it's really it's nice to have the option, I guess. It is. It's definitely. It's nice to have the option. And even to have the conversation. You're self-conscious about it. You don't even want to talk about it. Yeah. Well, my friend's going to get a transplant, a hair transplant, and he was like, but it feels so wrong like I'm a man and getting plastic surgery. And I was like, oh my God. Be happy. If something is really bothering you and affecting, genuinely affecting your confidence and making you feel bad, and there is something that you can do about it, like, that's one of the best investments. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I'm, it's difficult to say this without them being like, thinking, oh, I'm like

promoting surgery, but I'm not, but it's, it's, it's just like, we, we do have access and like, yeah, I don't know, it's. It's nice for him to have that option. It's really nice for him to have that option, yeah, and he can afford it and like, he's, but he's embarrassed about it, but I was like, don't be embarrassed and just be like, you know, like, a lot of men go bald, a lot of men lose their hair and like, yeah. Yeah. It's okay if you want to do something about it, basically. Do you have anything bad? my bad my bad so my bad is actually going on from last week when i said that my mental health wasn't great at the moment and do you know what it was after we did this episode after we i talked

about it and then afterwards i was like i talk so much online about mental health like my eating stuff i am an open book i have literally zero secrets but for some reason i have never been able to like talk about taking antidepressants like ever like I've never told anyone like I've told like my mom obviously and like Dave and then like two of my friends know but for some reason in my head there just feels like there's a huge stigma around it which there is still and like even with um when dr Alex did his dot Alex George did his um post a pill post a pill thing and I was like I can't do that like I can't post my pill and I just don't know why honestly just don't know why it's always been like a massive like I felt it as a massive

taboo and like just not wanted anyone to know and then I was kind of I said that last week is my bad and I was like I feel like I'm not lying but like sort of lying by a mission in that um I'm actually like the reason that my mental health is so bad is because I'm coming off my antidepressants which I've been on for 16 years now since I was right 16 yeah since I was 18 I started taking them and I've tried at various points to come off I've just never done it very well I don't think and I also wasn't the right time and like I've been on various doses

like as I, when I got diagnosed with my eating stuff like that they tripled the dose and then I came back down a little bit, went up anyway, it's been all over the place and then now I'm finally coming off them and I'm determined like it's gonna happen this time and I'm down from

so it's fluoroxetine and I'm down from 40 milligrams to 10 milligrams and yeah it's been not fun as you know I've been I'm not a nice person and it's like it's just it's so rough like anyone will know like the withdrawals are just like oh my god it's just it's killer it's brutal but I am determined and I'm like it's now or never

like now is the time I'm going to do it so I'm nearly there I'm on 10 I've got like two more weeks and then I'm off so like brace yourself buckle up yeah you and day put some armour on because i'm going to be an absolute raging bitch oh good it's going to be brutal you've been fine so you've been fine yeah i just felt really wrong last week when i talked about it didn't say why and i was like oh my god i talk about mental health like i'm telling i'm trying to like break down stigma with mental health like in a very small way so i was like so why am i not being honest about it so yeah that's my bad well i'm proud of you

I think you've done really well. I'm just going to say stuff even though it might not be true. I feel like you're over the worst of it. I don't know. I must you. I fucking hope so. You've come down like three quarters. You've got the final quarter.

Yeah, I know. I know. Yeah. If we pretend it's like a really long run, like the last quarter is probably the hardest but also the easiest in the way that all you have to do is keep going. Yeah. Like the beginning bit you've got so far ahead. It's like, barking hell.

But now you're like. I think what scares me is that I still got some, I'm still taking some something. Yeah. And, like, when I, my next hurdle is, like, absolutely nothing. And for 16 years, I've not known what it's like to have nothing. I know what we should do. Let's go home, let's go home, let's go into the kitchen and get the measuring thing out and measure something that's 10 milligrams.

And you can see how small it is. How small that is. Because that might help. And let's put it next to 40 milligrams. Yeah. And then you can see how far you've come already. Yeah, that's quite cool. We also have to go and measure ourselves in a minute because Al's got a real buck-up of our height.

She wants to measure everyone because she doesn't believe. I'm like I'm literally I'm touching five six and she's like no she doesn't believe I don't I don't think you are because I well I think I'm five seven I might be wrong but I think we're the same height you're taller than me I don't think I are we'll let you know yeah so Sarah who's here as well he's like my best mate and he lived with me for like three years we've done this loads don't know why I just what is it with humans why do you know it's I don't know we're exactly the same right but it's interesting with energy I think people think kind of a lot taller than what I am.

You have tall energy. I've got really tall and Sarah's got small energy. Sarah's got small energy. Even though she's absolutely terrifying and like I just wouldn't fuck with it. But she's got like small energy as a person like height wise. So yeah. It's interesting that we, because I know we're the same might, I'm about to prove it to you, but that we come across.

Okay. I bet you. I bet you. Honestly, I bet you a dip in the sea. Fine. That Sarah is smaller than you. More than a dip in the sea. I will literally bet you.

go bigger Al do something you think of something you really don't want to do I bet you that one of us has to eat

Bisto's dog shit oh you just took it way too fucking far I was thinking with a little rabbit dropping so you're not that confident

are you or tell you something else good Sarah got me a pair of crocs for my birthday and that's the good but the bad bit

is I just went on a nice little walk and I just got so much rabbit shit in my crocs right so it's a de surprise in those

I am the same like Sarah and you are told this Georgie the same height. Georgie's swallow has tall energy. But she's also quite tall. Okay, so that's probably why she's got tall energy.

Maybe she's my height, actually. We're going to do a height chart. I think if you look at any photos of us, you're taller than me. I just don't think so, but we will say. I'm so excited. We should have done this while we were still recording. I might do a recording on my phone. But otherwise, I think it's time to introduce our guests this week.

Double. Double. Oh, no, it's not. first time guests but it is our first couple which is nice it's exciting very exciting this might be like our like four a into like jeremy kyle but just the nice bit do you think without the scandal just this is the greatest love story so i have ever heard so we could be like so cool like kerrymy gile and just like do it all back to fun where we only deal with like lovely things amazing school stories just like wonderful love stories yeah this honestly truly is one of the greatest love stories i have

heard if Netflix don't buy the right then they're fucking idiots and you heard that here first but first it should be written as a book I've got some time coming up I could do it if they're if they're busy which I think they are but anyway um I'm just pouring yourself up for this I'm not going to they're probably listening okay guys I don't have to make a book I'm sorry I'm embarrassed um write your own book make loads of money sell it to Netflix and just let me just be a happy how'd be spectator so here they are Jamie and Sharba. Hi guys, thank you so much for coming.

We've just been talking your ear off about stupid, honestly so embarrassing. It's like grown adults with a good, kind of successful enough podcast and then it's just like, anyway, what games do you play on your iPhone? But thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having us. No worries. So we are really excited to hear you, your story because it's super interesting. And we kind of want to hear it like from the beginning.

I don't want to like, I want to hear it completely in your own words. Before it becomes like a movie, like before Netflix by the rights. Yeah, I butcher it and then we watch it. So could you tell us like your story? You guys are story. Oh my God. Okay, huge jump in spot. Warning though, fair disclosure, I feel like a domestic's about to happen because we have two different versions of this.

Yeah, but it's fine because we've got over it enough now that it's more of just like, yeah. Shall we ask one of you to leave the room or the other one? It's probably a good idea. You need to get a lie detector? No, I'm kidding. You know, like interviews are they at one at a time? Yeah. Because we need to get the story straight.

All right. Once before all. You start. Go for it. No, no, no, no, no, okay. So, we met at 16. Do I get that right? I'm so bad at dates.

Yeah, 16, before you were Jamie, really. So pre-jamey. You want to explain that? I don't want to put that. Oh, well, I was still. living as female when we met so that we kind of we became friends gradually and it's very weird talking about it because it's like oh yeah like before so we came up with the term pre jamie because like I don't use my dead name over just seems the best way to sort of like yeah

on your past while still recognizing you um but yeah that happened and I I maintain I was a new kid at school which is always like a stressful time to be you know went into our class tried to make some friends said hi to a bunch of people girls at the time and you blanked me you all did I'm sorry, but you did. And I was like, dicks. I maintain that I said hi back. I did not hear this. I'm so very good at like starting conversation.

So I was pretty sure you came in, you were like, hello. And I was like, hello. And then you didn't say anything. And then I just, I'm not going to say anything. I said hello. Sure. Anyway, it was. Some words were said or not said in the classroom.

You decide. Hey, I remember you were drawing a guitar. Well, you all did. Actually, when they blanked me. Because it was art class I had no idea what I was doing I imagine you just like walking into a random classroom first day

It's cool Just like This is my interpretation of a guitar Guys Anyone who'd be my friend That's why I blanching That's why I blame to you But it's not a great drawing of a guitar

It looks more like a violin Yeah but no That happened And then I guess we sort of knew each other through a mutual friend Yeah because you didn't like me And then A bad first impression

You thought yeah You thought I was rude And then, like, we realized we had a mutual friend. And so, like, we both were, like, hanging out with this friend on the same day. And we were, like, you. It's you. And then we bonded over a broken oven and some mini kishes. Yeah.

I was having a family party. My mom was holding a family party. And we had 50 mini kishas on the day that our oven broke. And I knew that you lived nearby. And I was just like, hey, this is really random, but can I use your oven? And turns out that was just a really great time to bond, right? in like two hours that it took to cook. We became best friends.

Yeah, we spoke for that. Aww. Yeah. And then we were best friends for about a year before I came out and started transitioning. And then a few months after I came out, we became more than friends. Yeah. I mean, you're glossing over a lot of details. I'm relaxing over a lot of details.

But yeah, we want details. I'm like so fascinated by the concept of people like being friends and then it turning into something more. Like, how did it happen? It's my favorite. It's my favorite. I just love it. It's fascinating.

It's like, how did it happen? did you both feel a certain way throughout the whole time of being friends? Did you know you had feelings for each other? Like, talk the three. Was it like just a permanent montage of R.E, is it Riem? Who can't fight this feeling anymore. So that like played for like a consistent, like,

a makeover. A meet cute where I hands touched. Yeah, for a mini key, yeah. No. That is what they'll use in the movie. I'm just doing the show when Netflix buys it. Can I direct it? Sure.

You can play us. I'm trying to remember. It was 11 years ago. It has been quite a while. Yeah, November 2011 is when we got together and I came out to you in the August. You're showing our age up. Yeah, and it was just really tricky, I guess, especially because of you coming out in between. Yeah, I mean, I can talk about my thing.

There was so much identity. Yeah. I think I always like fancy each other, but like it was never, you know, you're like never going to happen. you just accept like we're just really good friends we get on so well let's just keep it as a friendship yeah i think as well like at the time you identified as a lesbian right but i was like straight and but you were with someone and i was with someone so but there wasn't anything happening this is a film i am in fraud nothing happened no no oh my gosh we weren't like yeah they're both monogamous and yeah my relationship just naturally fizzled out as awkward team

romances do. My family I should also mention were like incredibly strict at the time and my rule going into college. So I had to change college as well. You're not allowed to make friends with boys. You're not allowed to have relationships. Like they were so strict very typically like traditionally Asian. I just snuck in there. I just saying like I stuck to my side of the bargain. I didn't make friends with boys. I didn't know that was going to happen. But yeah, you know how like two girlfriends just react as well. I think we were very touchy-feely and play fighting. And then after you transitioned, I think it just takes on a new meaning. It shouldn't in today's society, right? But it just does. People looked at it differently. You were just like,

are you guys together? I don't really know. Was there a point that you would pinpoint? You used to come over like late at night and we'd watch movies. Like literally that was it. Like, and it was just... Do friends not do that? No, but we were just very close. And I started getting a vibe. Oh yeah, like late. Like you would, you were done. But again, family... Because Al's not coming to my house beyond six. This was like 1, 2 a.m. But because I had to like sneak out because I wasn't allowed to like see friends outside of college. So I was like climbing down the window, we're meeting halfway and then, yeah.

Wow. This is a great film. Always climb a trellas in a film. And then I think I started, so this was all like after I came out. And I started getting a vibe of like this fit. Like you know when you're just like this feels more than just like friendship? And then we had a Halloween party at my parents' place. I had a little bit too much to.

drink. And I was... Just chucking about those WKDs, smell of vices. And I told you, I basically, I told you that I liked you and I thought that was something going on. You did. And then the next time we saw each other in college, Shabba ran away from me. No, hang on.

Literally like bolted. Okay, you make that sound really bad. I was very... I was talking from my sight, you may share your perspective. Sure. It was a confusing time because I was just like, oh, maybe this is happening. And then my first thought was, does this make me a lesbian? I had like no idea, like you coming out was my first understanding of what trans even meant.

Jamie had said to me, I was going to say you called me to your shed, which sounds really odd, but it was like a shed in the back garden, which was like where we would hang out with friends. And you were like, oh, do you know what LGBT means? And I was like, yeah, sure, who doesn't? And then you were like, I'm the T and LGBT. I thought that was a great way to come out. That is really, that is a good way. Do you know what I get back?

What's that? Oh, well, I knew the concept, but I don't quite know. what each letter stood for you said we knew what it meant and then you were just like I was trying to play cool but no like you explained it and it made a lot of sense

and obviously as I understood it with time like it made sense but I just knew how my family would react as well who you know when I mentioned because we would hang out every day beforehand and then when I told my parents that you know you transitioned and we use male pronouns now

and your name is Jamie they were like oh well you're not allowed to be friends with boy shabber so you're not allowed to be friends with jamie yeah but at the same time also didn't respect what being transmen or what your identity was it was very odd um it was weird yeah so i was just like what does this mean and is this worth doing anything with because i mean spoiler alert as it did happen i got disowned and i was kicked out so it just felt like a really big thing you know to to risk yeah no i realized i could realize a running away bit but it's purely because like if we were to go like getting a relationship that was potentially going to have serious consequences for shabba which it did um but things worked

out on the end but we had like conversations just like a couple months into a relationship at like 17 going this needs to be like serious to be worth it because of the trouble that shabba could get in i often do you think back yeah and like that must have seemed so odd like to be a fly on the war during those moments. I'm sure you guys had relationships at like 16, 17. And like, well, I don't know, maybe you do, but marriage and thoughts of like long-term commitment was never something that had crossed my mind before. I just knew that this was like a step way further that would really upset my family. It worked out though. Yeah. And I guess we both decided that it was worth fighting for. Yeah. Yeah. So, so far it seems to have. I have so many questions. I know for me. I really want to talk

about like your family if you'd be comfortable talking about it but also just to hear from you Jamie about like the process of transitioning when you were at like quite a young age like quite a young age and like how that was with like not just with shop with your other friends with school and like with your parents and like how was that how was it for you and like to answer that okay um oh my god I mean like finding out like about being trans and figuring it out about myself was like a really big moment. It was a big relief and really exciting, but also really, really scary because there's that kind of internal realization of like, oh, like, my feelings make sense. I can kind of, I understand myself and why I've been feeling that way, but then like,

what are the people going to say? Because, like, I can't just keep this to myself. And so there was that big, like, scary moment, but I kind of came out to people gradually. So I told my mom, and I was like, hey, mom, I'm kind of like questioning my gender. So I thought we could have a chat. And my mom is like this. Did you say it like that? Yeah, pretty much. And my mom is like just a super like open minded like person. She's lovely.

So we like chatted. We watched like YouTube videos of other trans people together. So she learned about it. And then just gradually I came out to like more people. Sharpe was actually the last person like who was close in my life that I came out to. For multiple reasons, but one of them being like, I didn't want to lose you. I was like, oh my God, what Sharma going to think? Because I think you thought that I was going to be quite clear.

be quite close-minded because my family was close-minded. I was just concerned that it would affect, like, our friendship and stuff. And then, well, I mean, it did, but in a good way. And, yeah, I just, I got really lucky, like, with my family and my friends, they've all been really amazing and supportive. There are, like, a few, like, acquaintancy-type friends that stopped talking to me, and there were, like, rumors going around the college and, like, whispers of stuff. But honestly, like, I had to, like, my people.

So I just hang out with them, and that was... It's pretty good. I was very fortunate, like, compared to a lot of trans people. Our immediate friendship could be right was absolutely amazing. But though I will say, Jimmy does have a tendency to sometimes foot on rose-tinted glasses, especially when it comes to the past because it was a while ago. You did lose a couple friends, yeah. But, again, to give them credit or one credit, they actually reached out not too long ago. Yeah, like a few years back, really not talking ages, and they were just like,

I'm really sorry. I didn't know how to behave, I didn't behave right, and I just want to say, I'm sorry, and like, I wish you were the best kind of thing. really sweet. We love them at a great moment. Is that nice to hear? Yeah, yeah. I think it's it's always nice when like you see that people have grown and they've kind of learned about things because I think that's the main reason why people tend to like not be comfortable with trans people and trans things is just because they don't know about it and it's like the experience hasn't been humanized to them and they're just like well trans people are just people trying to

live their lives and so some people just find it weird so it's really nice to hear that back and just be like yeah do you know what I learned about it and like it's cool. It struck me So you were 16 when you... When I found out. Yes. You found out on a... You were watching a TV documentary, right? Yeah, it's completely by chance.

Oh, really? Yeah, and that's how, like, most trans people, like, find out at least 10 years ago because it's not... It wasn't spoken about in schools, it wasn't even, like, really in the papers and stuff, and there was no prominent, like, trans people around, so... You're just kind of, like, flipping channels and found a documentary. Yeah. Oh, wow.

And it just... Did it just... Did you see it and think, oh my God, this is... starting to like something's clicking yeah this is making oh totally it was like a light bulb moment I was like oh my gosh like you're just describing how I feel basically yeah so would you always or from when you since you can remember felt this like gender dysphoria but just not known that it was not normal to feel that way you just kind of thought everyone felt that way is I'm getting I'm imagining

that I kind it was more like when I was really young I'd so I remember being a reception like four years old I literally just thought I was one of the boys really I was just like I did not myself any different I didn't like take note of pronouns and the difference like in like gendered names and stuff and my parents were super open and just letting me wear and like express myself like play sports and like do a lot more like typically like boy things like stereotypically because like I wanted to fit in with the boys and I was like that's who I am and then it was like we're older and you realize there is a difference that I was like oh wait puberty happens yeah so like I'm not just like the other boys so then what's wrong with me in a

sense like and it took a long time to realize it wasn't anything wrong with me and I wasn't alone in those feelings yeah it's quite confusing like yeah especially if like everyone's put around you and you yourself you're putting yourself into like a tomboy role right yeah and then actually you have to work out that it's it's like much further than that that's really difficult yeah and it's not just because like loads of loads of like women were tomboys when they were kids and stuff and like that doesn't mean that you're trans right it's like that kind of it's that step beyond the behavior yeah and there's like just that internal sense of like no this is who i am yeah i i felt that um moment for you then when you said you you realized it

and it was like on one hand so much relief and then on the other hand so scary because i can i can feel that like how you must have well obviously not but like i can sort of a glimmer of that of being like suddenly i have to do something i can't go i can't have this information now and not do anything about it like it means something in my life is about to change and it's so scary and especially 11 years ago I mean I know it's not like that long ago but it was long enough that like trans issues weren't really talked about and there wasn't that much information or understanding or representation like now it must be so so so much easier to come out as trans compared to 11 years ago so it must have been very daunting it's really tricky yeah I think it was definitely

a very, like, lonely time. The only people I felt like I could relate to were all online and, like, in America. So it wasn't even, like, there was no one from the UK sharing their journey. There was nobody in the UK talking about it. So it was quite, like, that was one of the scariest things, just feeling, like, very alone in it. And, like, I knew I wasn't alone in, like, the existence of trans people and stuff, but just not having anybody in my real life to talk to about it, like, who could understand exactly what was happening. Because no one can understand that. unless they have been through it themselves, right? Yeah, it's just one of those things.

They can have like an approximate understanding, but they can never, so yeah, that I mean, that's the amazing thing I guess about nowadays they're being so, and the internet, like giving us that proximity to so many people. Just sharing their different stories. Yeah. Yeah. And I will say, like I think normally, obviously, like you, I can never understand what you went through, but I think we've all had moments where we're like, oh, I'm confused about

this one thing, but there's always like. a sense of authority that we can go to so you know for transitioning in particular that would be you know like well let me go to my GP to have an idea of what the next steps are but nobody knew anything like I think your GP even now knows significantly less than you do after like a day's worth of googling yeah like I told my GP about like my dose and the type of testosterone that I should be on from advice like this was after I got prescribed by a specialist but my GP was like I have no idea you just need to to tell me what they've told you and like changing types of testosterone I just had to like google and be like okay this is what it says I can do unfortunately I had a GP who was like

it was more than googling you looked at like research papers yeah it was legit she didn't do anything she shouldn't um but yeah like that i didn't know who to talk to by the way i figured out i was trans i was like well great no i can tell people but then like what do i actually do with this information how do i like put this into action and i spoke to like the college counselor and she was like um yeah i have no idea what to tell you she was like i literally have no clue what to advise you to do and i was like thank you i'll go back to google i guess oh my god yeah i did that and eventually i found a GP who was like i actually worked in quite close proximity with a gender clinic so this is the kind of timeline you're looking at and i can refer

you and even then it was like two years before even starting hormones And now it's more like five years for people. Why so long now? There's just no funding in healthcare for trans people. Like there's been a large increase in referrals to people going to gender clinics because like just people know that being trans is a thing. So they're aware that that is who they could be. They know the services they can access, but the services are just massively underfunded.

And there's very little like appropriate healthcare access for trans people. I think as well there's like something that people who are quite scared of the whole trans phenomenon or agenda, you know, feel like it's really increased in recent years because there's just so many people who are, like it must be contagious. Everyone's trying to be trans because it's a cool, trendy thing to do. And that's not the case. I think it's just spoken about a lot more. So people, you know, like you did at 16, just have the words to be able to talk about how they're feeling a little bit sooner. Yeah, of course, because what was the chance you were going to watch that documentary, you know, but like how many people now get to see your YouTube or

follow somebody on Instagram and then, you know, they get there, they get represented. It's just more part of general knowledge. It's like when they stopped being scared of people who were left-handed and like training it out of kids, somehow there were more left-handed people in the world. It's the exact same concept. It's just when people know about something, more people are going to realize that's who they are.

I think it's a great thing. Yeah, of course. I was going to say that's actually something that we wanted to talk to you about as well. We don't want to jump around. We always do this. But like that, the phenomenon that everyone's talking about, like when people will say, oh everyone's trans now or non-binary and you know and there's this argument as well that it shouldn't be

taught in schools and like kids shouldn't know until a certain age shouldn't be it shouldn't be made aware of transgender issues or blah and it really is made sound as if you know like kids are being forced into surgery or taking hormones at the age of like five you know whereas the reality is you can't get hold of anything that is permanent or irreversible 16 is the minimum age but It's really rare. Because of the lack of healthcare is particularly bad for, like, kids who are trans. Like, they're not doing anything that's permanent. And you have to remember these people as well, you know, people like you're going through this journey and this questioning are, number one, jumping through so many hoops.

Like, I remember you had to speak to, I think, you had, like, three different counsellors that you had to sort of, like, tick boxes for in order to, you know, get to a stage of physically transitioning. But also, secondly, like, LGBT plus people in general, I can vouch for this, too, are the least but I mean I don't think anyone will but no LGBT plus person would ever want someone to feel the way that they're not supposed to so what would be the point in like convincing someone

to transition you know exactly what it feels to live how you're not supposed to be there's no reason in making people transition for any sort of suspicious reason I mean the whole theory just came from a really bad piece of research called rapid onset gender dysphoria which is just it's been completely

denounced by every medical board every trans specialist like medical, professional, everything, like nobody accepts that, but that's what people who are anti-trans cling onto. What did it say? So it basically describes gender dysphoria and like people identifying as trans, particularly kids. A research called Lisa Lippman, yeah, recruited specifically from transphobic websites, just

spoke to parents of trans kids. So not even, yeah, people themselves. Oh, yeah, being trans is a social contagion. Because the parents had believed that the kids were, you know, that the parents, parents reported, oh, my child didn't, but after speaking to this person, now, you know, feels like they're trans. Yeah. Not realizing that LGBT-plus people typically tend to, like, congregate together without

even realizing it because it's just like you have shared values and there's a shared, like, I think any marginalized group does as well. It's not just LGBT-plus people. Yeah, you sort of find people who are quite similar to you. Yeah. And so I totally understand how parents from an outside perspective, and it is a scary thing to see your child go through. Even your parents are the most accepting parents, even me, like, as an accepting partner, like,

there is no denying that there's a lot of stigma around being trans and a lot of hate towards you when we were all really worried about the sort of obstacles that you would come across in being able to live authentically but also happily so I totally get why parents would be scared and from an outside point may feel like oh hang on but your friends are like this and now you're telling me you're like this but just because something's correlative doesn't mean that it's causational right and so this research was purely anecdotal then it was pure it was like putting findings on a group of people that weren't even involved in the research. So they're saying this is what we found out about trans kids when trans kids weren't even questioned or involved

in the research in any way. And the parents were gathered from websites like transgender trend, which is like known for, it's literally transphobic. Like it's just that they pull in the people who don't want to believe that their kids are trans. They were quite biased samples that then the actual journal rescinded the research and said, no, this is like not okay for various reasons and made a bunch of corrections. But once something's out there, we're already know that the damage is done so yeah because it is spoken about like it's like an epidemic like all these kids are like transitioning and it's like okay one I probably not but two so what and that's what I find and I don't know whether it comes from a

protection standpoint for parents because like you say you know like you do worry but I don't know I don't know I don't think it is that and I don't know it is do you do you feel like for you like there is someone like fueling this rhetoric like there is an agenda that that somebody's fueling, or is it just this sort of, I don't know, the way that things go online where people are just talking about it more? Or do you feel like it's very deliberate? I don't that's a really hard question, but... Mixed transphobia in one podcast. I'd love to. I think that there was a lot of misinformation going around that some very powerful, prominent people latched onto believed was the truth and spread. And then like once that starts spreading, and I think

to be honest, the people who are really that transphobic are a minority, but they're really, really loud. And there's some very, like, famous people involved, which doesn't make it easier. Absolutely. You won't name and shame, but I certainly will. People like JK Rowling have absolutely not helped, you know, the fact that there's a lot of half choose being shared as well. You know, the whole, I think it's called turf ideology. I don't know if that's something you're familiar with, but it's basically an anti-trans rhetoric. But unfortunately, seems to now sort of pose trans rights as a group opposed to women's rights when the reality is both can be fought for and both people I'm sure I've never I've never met a trans person who

hasn't want to fight for women's rights as well you know it doesn't have to be one exclusively over the other but it doesn't help when really large platforms just say things like biological sex is real because of course biological sex is real trans people are denying that it's also saying that gender identity is real and for some people that's different to what our biological sex is government officials too you know when we've got our health minister saying dangerous things and undercutting the NHS, then that can become problematic. But it's incredibly convenient for the right to create fractions

within the left. They've done it for as long as time. Cultural words. Yeah. I mean, it makes perfect sense that they're going to put women against trans people and they're going to put, you know, whoever against whoever, because if they can have us fighting ourselves and they can just like an abortion. Oh, well, the scariest thing is, is that anti-trans, people so like turfs claiming to be feminists have teamed up with anti-abortionist groups to fight against trans rights so like they actually and they're not coming out in support of women's rights ever it's always just trans is bad that's women's rights when trans people are involved it makes sense for everyone listening

turf is trans exclusionary radical feminists yeah I mean the clue's in the name right like what's going on I don't get it I don't understand it does seem to be just just to explain it like again if you haven't come across the term like it does sort of seem to be i can't think of one person who i'd use as an example perhaps as somebody very like active in this space but it's like a sort of i when i imagine somebody like that it's an older woman who's probably worked very hard within her space to as a feminist but it's old school feminism i think like as we've as this way to come up as this radical feminist is quite um different to as you said like I guess the more sort of liberal feminism that we typically see is the idea that it's not

equality but that from what I understand it to be women in order to create equality when we need to completely overthrow men I don't quite understand but you know like it's a complete reversal of all of our do you think that's what turf means radical feminism as a form and but actually I think why it's like I'm like say as if it's you but like why I'm sorry because I don't get it like why Well, I think something that comes up a lot is like the idea of women's safety. Like people will use like, and it's so annoying because little sports and barrooms are just people just don't see trans women as women. They just see them as men, therefore invading the spaces. So they don't see that that's the case.

And the real sad reality is that trans women unfortunately get, I know this isn't you, but trans women, the data shows are significantly worse off. They get abused and raped and hurt significantly more than women's spaces. And so they need these spaces as well. It's been in the news recently, like the past couple weeks, about a trans woman who was raped and went to a sort of like support group and a cisgender woman is now suing the group for having a trans woman there. Could you imagine going through such a horrifying experience and feeling the need to find these groups for support and then literally being like in the middle of this legal claim just for wanting support alongside other women who have gone through something? It's unbelievable. But I mean, all the research just supports trans people, basically. They looked into places where trans women were very freely using women's spaces

and countries where that was happening. And there's literally zero increase in risk to any woman using those spaces as well. It's very safe because trans women are women, so it's just as safe to share a space with them. People pluck these crazy things. It's like, oh, well, if you have a prison where trans women can go, then a man would deliberately transition so that he could go and rape women in prison and it's like... But that's a problem with violent men.

Exactly. No way. Fixed the men. No way. Because I'm incapable of that. It's not going to go and sit and do all of this, right? This has become the thing he hates so much. And here's the thing that really gets me that like confuses me to no end. If we go with the turf ideology

that this is what needs to happen, right? And we base everything on biological sex. People like Jamie next to me here would be considered a woman. and Jamie would be allowed into women's spaces. So if Jamie's going into women's spaces, what's to stop cis men who are genuinely trying to hurt people who look like this, therefore using those spaces?

Oh my God, I've never thought about. Do you see what I mean? Like, if you're allowing trans men into these spaces, that means Jamie would go into a women's bathroom. Imagine if I would, so if turf, if tough's got what they want and trans women are kicked out of women's spaces, that means trans men would be put into women's spaces. So therefore wouldn't it make it easier for cis men

who wanted to gain access to just say they're a trans man? Because then they don't have to do anything. Because unless you're going to employ guards on every single toilet daughter, look into people's pants. Like, you're not going to be able to. Why? I've never heard. Well, it's because Tufts typically ignore the existence of trans men.

Because it doesn't make sense. No, we are confused lesbians who have been like, what is it, like controlled by the patriarchy. You're trying to escape your lack of privilege. Yeah, we want to get men's privilege and all of this stuff. And that's like, mm. I've run straight headfirst into transphobia, like yeah, not really escaped. It's very true. What baffles me is that like with all of these things, like with kids, people saying

that there's like an epidemic of kids becoming transgender and then like men doing it for this and that, people talk about it as if it's like a like fun, like easy thing to do where like it's, you'll be able to tell us, it's so grueling, right? The process of taking testosterone and having surgery and changing your people. body it's so grueling it's not just like hey like this is fun thing to do it's not something like emotionally or physically you'd put yourself through unless you felt you had to like it's really like and like especially if you're visibly trans either because you're a public trans person or you are quite early in your transition and this is particularly true for a lot of trans women they often

lack the passing privilege that trans men have so they typically people might be able to tell their trans women especially if they're earlier in their transition and That's a really difficult thing to have to deal with. And people do not, like that, you're literally putting yourself in danger by being a visibly trans person in however way you're visibly trans. You wouldn't do that if you could avoid it. And just like the concept as well that trans men would transition to like get male privilege, then why do trans women transition then? Because like they're giving up male privilege if that's the ideology you want to go on. And that doesn't make, like, to turf love.

does not make sense. It's literally just you don't like trans people, particularly trans women. That's it. The wonderful thing, though, is that it really is a minority group. I know it doesn't seem like that, especially on social media, because it just seems to be everywhere at the moment, but you govern Stonewall just released stats from this week that have shown that the majority of people are actually really accepting of LGBT and T plus people. They don't mind the fact that trans people use bathrooms of their gender identity. So that's... nice to hear you know yeah and i think it is like what we were saying before about like that it's a very deliberate tactic that's being used because it's convenient to have this idea that we're all

against each other when and that's lovely to know that the statistics are showing that actually absolutely we're really not and what's it like online doing this like are people because you say like yeah as you say it can be difficult online how are people to you would you have like exposed it's a real mix there there's a lot of like support out there a lot of positive but when certain like videos and stuff reach different spaces when it goes outside of the little like bubble it can be quite like brutal the the transphobia that comes in and but a lot of it all of it is very just like mindless hate comments it's not actually like anything I struggle to get offended by it now because I'm like you're not saying anything that makes sense you're not

saying anything constructive you're not saying anything logical why would it offend me if you just come on and be like, you're stellar woman and you always will be like, what? It's probably not even personal lies. Yeah, I've had that a thousand times. You've probably copied and pasted that. Like, the, so, it's so much easier to pay attention to the really nice comments, which there are a lot of, like, for every one hate comment, there'll be 10 really nice people. I wish like a thing like you.

It's so much easier to pay attention to the bad ones in my life. Does it ever get to you? Yeah, a couple times, like, I've made a video calling out transphobia and the person that, like, was the instigator of that transphobia has like reacted to me on their platform and that just sends over a horrendous amount of hate tidal waves yeah and like it can be really brutal stuff that people are saying

and that's the only time but I'm just like yeah do you know I'm just gonna like any comments on this video from now on I have to approve so I don't see it anymore I actually think you probably get more like negatively affected by things that happen in the news that like fundamentally affect the rights and sort of progressive LGBT plus movements than you do by individual people or haters online. Yeah.

Yeah. But you're very good, I have to say. Yeah. I wish I had his, like, resilient. Do you not find it so easy? I just get really angry. I'm like, yeah. No, I think we've been doing this for so long now.

I'm sure, like, you feel the same way, like, over time, you kind of learn to ignore the haters because there's no sort of, like, benefit from it. Sometimes we all slip, and it can affect you in ways that you don't want to. You could go on and do literally. literally at a thing, look any kind of way, have any identity, and there'll be a bunch of people who say horrible things. Someone is going to dislike it. Yeah. Someone is always going to dislike what you do. So if they want to pick apart the fact that I'm trans, then you go for it because I'm very confident in my identity. So, yeah. I get more offended if people are like, you have a really

big nose and your videos suck. I'm like, oh my God, my day's ruined. You know, we've talked about this in like two episodes back about like the things that hurt are often our own insecurities. And so But it's really, like, I guess people would assume, you know, when they're coming, like, with this, like, dagger to your heart, like, you know, you're not a man. And then it's like, dagger. And then it's like, but it's so cool for you to just be like, no, don't feel that. Like, because they think they're offering a devastating insult and they aren't. Yes, I just think they sound silly when they say that.

It's like, clearly, yeah, clearly you're right. Okay. We call it the purple broccoli phenomenon. Like, the idea that if somebody was to call your purple broccoli, you just be so confused because you're like, I'm clearly not a purple rocky like what are you talking about but then if someone was to call me like bossy or stubborn then that would hurt because there's an element of me that knows that it's true and so I'll sort of like feel offended because yeah you know so like the whole big nose thing I love your face I think you're absolutely beautiful but that's something that you personally

you know have like mentioned being insecure about so when people mention that one bad thing about testosterone it made my nose bigger did it yeah makes your nose bigger I didn't know that it doesn't make your nose bigger for everyone no it's quite common Yeah, but you're just like, yeah, it just makes your nose bigger. It is a common thing. I don't think you've got a big nose. Oh, thank you. No, right.

I think it places very well proportionally. Move on. More questions, please. Can we go back to the like epic love story of all epic love stories? First of all, before I ask you more questions, what would it be called? Just ask your director, I'd like to know a kind of creative spin we've got on this. Don't know you don't have to get back to you right now? Yeah.

Yeah, let's brainstorm. Give us some ideas. Honestly, I think it's the coolest. It would be a great book. Do you want to be writing? It would be an amazing story. I know it's your life. But it's like to hear it's just amazing.

Selva rights, monetize. Check it on this. I have to say, though, that is an incredible thing, right? I think with what we all do, like being creators, especially in the spaces that we get involved in, that I understand for you guys as well as super pro-social. It's so nice to take the things that people offer. call you like weird or lesser than for and to be able to just like reclaim it

and you're like dude i've made out of a career a career out of the thing that you say i'm odd for that's a very cool place to be whether it be body positivity mental health you know i just i just think it's amazing yeah it's being brown and it annoys people so much like miserable people and they just hate that people just get to make money from just whatever and i just love that so much I'm like, look at my back roll. So back, yes, okay, back to your story. How did your family take, I mean, because if they didn't even want you being friends with Jamie, then how did they take?

Not very well. Okay. Yeah, so I had a split family, to be fair, but I was living with my mum and my stepdad at the time. Okay. Who were, as I said, significantly like more traditional in their views. And they kind of found out on New Year's Day. My phone was taken away from me because I was studying, revising for exams

and Jamie had sent me this mushy text. But it was very sweet, but it was just, you know, like... Excuse me, that. Did we know what it says? I actually still have it somewhere on my old phone. I kept it specifically to have those messages. I'm like a...

Ridley Scott will need to see it. I'm an emotional hoarder. But no, it was like something along the lines of, you know, this hasn't been an easy time and I love you. And, you know, like, this is our first new years together. Here's to many. more kind of thing like one of these so you decided at this point that you were going to be together yeah we kind of we didn't label it but it was definitely something that we realized we were taking

seriously but we were hiding it from our friends not because of the trans thing mostly because we didn't want to upset our friendship dynamics it's a bit weird to then like have a have a little couple in a group of six but then also because there was also like more leakage opportunities for my family to find out um so hence the climbing out the window one i am to just spend a time together. This is proper love, though. This is like, this is what they write films about, guys. We committed.

Yeah. Honestly, it makes me, like, feel like I want to vomit. It's just so grinned. But yeah, but my, my mom found the text. Because she confiscated my phone. She's like, what? You're a lesbian. And their first thought was to basically tell my entire family,

Shab as a lesbian, what do I do, guys? You know, like, do we need to, ship her off and marry her to some guy in some other country do we need to you know like is there something we can do they had like imams come and speak to me and family try to like convince me otherwise and I couldn't speak to any of my friends so you got really nervous because you're like she didn't reply to my text I think we last saw each other I think you managed to get like a message through like and your dad contacted me and would like explained it and I was like oh my god because it's like my dad's my dad's been super supportive yeah he's been really supportive yeah but it's like okay so this has happened she

doesn't have any way to contact people just gonna have to like sit it out just write it out and so it was a while and I remember the first time we saw each other at college after Christmas I was like oh my god I have so much to tell you were both just like welling up from across the room and I was like you were allowed to go back to back to college yeah just to finish yeah yeah so I had like a lot more restrictions so I was being picked up from the school gates and like dropped off like couldn't see anyone it was very I guess just teenage I was counting down the days really also because it was a really hostile environment Like, it wasn't a nice place to be when I was just constantly being told,

like, you were being constantly misgendered to me. And I was just, like, not a single day went by where they weren't, like, break up. It's, you know, you're going to abandon your family and, like, risk going to hell all for this one person, you know, like, where's your head at? But for me, I've always been, like, a bit of a black sheep in my family. My views have always been very different. I was just like, it's now or never, and Jamie's something that I really want to fight for. So, you know.

Can I ask, sorry, I just, um, you said like, they said that you would go to hell. For what exactly is that because of your religion? Yeah, I think, so my family's Muslim in background and, um, it's an odd one actually, because from what I've read and understood, um, Islam actually accepts trans people. Okay. Uh, in, but they don't accept homosexuality. They don't accept being LGBT, but they accept, um, binary, yeah, trans culture. Okay.

It's a relatively more recent thing based on the religion, because there's like a group of imams who like set the laws. Okay. Yeah. But I think a lot of the time religion and culture are often tangled. Right. And especially when it comes to family and reputation, which is definitely in my experience, what seems to lead Asian culture?

It was all like, what on earth will the family think? Like, Sharva's golden child, she's so good at school. She always does what she's told. Now look, she's a lesbian. There's nothing wrong with being. lesbian but they were calling you a lesbian and they were misgendering because they didn't see you as a boy yeah yeah apart from to use it it was very hypocritical you know apart from to say well you know if james boy you're not allowed to see him yeah i think it was more

like just get away from this quote-unquote weirdness yeah yeah um yeah but it didn't really work we had a lot of classes together just by chance because we you know share some of creative mindsets um and then that sounded so formal that sounded really wow you didn't that creative And then, yeah, it got to a point that was just so tough at home. My mom, my family disowned me. They just were like, you're not my daughter anymore. I washed my hands off of you. And I left.

I wasn't there. It was a day before my A-level exam started. I remember this and I was just like, what do I do? What do I sleep? Because I didn't want to go to your house. It was really bad timing. That is the understatement of the day. Bad time.

Bad timing, babe. You're going to wait in a week, you know. But I just thought, like, I can't go to you because that would just make things so much worse. I ended up just going to a... Long story short, I found a tutor who I just knew the address of because I was tutoring his kid. And I was like, hey, can you just help me out here and tell me what it needs to be done? And he basically said, just, you know, head over to Jamie's place. And your parents, I have to say, have been so incredible in the 11 years that I've known them.

They've been nothing but supportive of Jamie. But to be able to take me in as well, like... I'm forever in their debt. They are so lovely. So they took. Yeah. Yeah. So we were living together less than a year after we got in a relationship. That's the climax of the song, that.

Did you, was it raining when you arrived in this front door? Yeah. It's going to be as a film. Drenched. You're going to have like a long piece of wood with like a red cotton bag on, you know. Yeah, no, I actually didn't have any of my stuff with me. Oh my God, you didn't have anything. Yeah.

And I didn't do those exams in the, end, which was silly. I did two of them. You did the whole, like, extenuated in circumstances. Yes, yeah. It was very tricky time. And I was just like, I just need to get to university, you know, like write out this period and then just be somewhere else and start life anew, which didn't really work. I did go to London to university, but I just hated it. Again, it wasn't for me. It was to do a course that I didn't really want to do. I was doing law at Queen Mary. I didn't like the vibe of, like, London living at the time. And I was travelling so far from my dad's house. He was very kind, you know, to like,

given me a place. But I just dropped out. I didn't tell anyone, including you. You stayed for like a month. Yeah, got job at Sainsbury's, just sort of chilled out. And then you moved back in with us. Well, then you found out and you were like, Sharper, no, you have to do your degree. What are you talking about? You dropped out. And so you sort of convinced me to try again at Essex University, which is where you were at the time. Just because it was a very different vibe. Like London, anyone who's gone to university, all know the environment is so important. It's something that I didn't realize beforehand. And I didn't realize how different they would be. But I absolutely loved it, Essex. It was like a little town on campus. I have a new group of friends and, yeah, just an environment that suited

me a lot better. A lot of people, like my mum in particular, just thought I'd moved for you, which wasn't the case, but I do understand how she would have thought that. So, again, they were very unhappy with me. But we found a place together. We got a little flat. Yeah, just sort of learned how to adult. And we've been living together ever since. Absolutely. There's been like a lot of one step forward, two steps back in terms of like my family and acceptance.

Right. But I think the real like clinching point was your surgery. Yeah. We were making some progress with like Sharma's mom in particular with acceptance. And then I had lower surgery the beginning of 2018 and it went like I had complications basically that were quite serious. I had like a hematoma and like a. this like they nicked an artery that was like like yeah it well i won't go into too much

detail in case people screamish it was horrific oh okay if you screamish they literally sorry the surgeon had to like unpick stitches and squeeze out what was basically like blackberry jam like multiple times and then the nurses at one point lifted off the dressings and literally blood spurted from like my groin area off the end of the bed and sleeping on the floor of the hospital room and I just remember looking down and like just seeing like just blood just yeah so I had to have an emergency second surgery and they were asking Shaba things like my blood type in case I needed a transfusion they'd need to transport me to a different hospital so Shaba was struggling like I just felt like well shit his partner

I was like how do I not know my partner's blood type I don't know this was 20 23 I don't know my blood type do you know what the really terrible thing is I forgot if they asked me now I still wouldn't know. I knew. I didn't know about my husband's with any confidence. I'd be like, A, oh, reassuring. Yes. It's an A, something. I think it's an A something. I know it's a reasonably common one. Yeah, good. But I didn't know at the time. And I think just because you were in the, yeah, they were like, if we have to do a blood transfusion, this hospital is not equipped. So we're going to be taking him over there. I need to know this. Do you know that? Like, they were talking about things like DNRs. Like, it's. Like, it's.

I do not resuscitate the things. I was just like, sorry, what? Like, I just broke down. But also, we hadn't told anyone because you didn't want to stress your parents out. They knew that you were having surgery. They didn't know about the complications. Anyone let me tell them. My mom's still mad at me now.

Duh, I'd be furious with you. And I hadn't told my parents, I didn't tell my mom because I was just like, look, she's not accepting anyway and, you know, like the idea of a trans surgery. She's just like not going to like. But my mom just happened to call at that time. And she's like, hey, babe, you're right. Like, we're just chatting. mess. She was like, what's wrong? Yeah. So she legged it to the hospital and she was honestly

an angel. She shouted at the doctors. Your mom was? Yeah. She just came. She was like, why are you asking this child that like, she has no idea? You're the doctors. Go and find his notes. Where is he? What's his hospital? You know, like, and she was like, Google mapping the routes just in case we had to go. I was just quivering wreck. She like answered all the questions. And you say he was, was she using your correct pronoun? Yeah. Wow. What a great, taken, this was like how many years into our relationship now. This was four years ago. Six years in. So there was a lot of backwards and forwards, but the one thing that she did do was, yeah, use your pronouns, absolutely, and your name at that point. And it was actually, when you had come out of that operation, she stayed with me the whole time.

I don't remember that much. I was very out of it. I was like, stressed, I don't think I want to remember much. No. Do you remember I stress bought a bike on Amazon? Yes, I do remember that. Yes. And it's the last saying he's going to want to sit up after a grind surgery has gone wrong. That feels cruel. I've asked an exercise by Jamie. Would you like to use it? Oh, wait. Oh, my God.

Yeah, but he came back and my mom, she didn't tell me there in that moment, but she actually gave you a kiss on the forehead. And she was like, she brought some, like, donuts and bryosh and all of your favorite treats. And then she went home and she called me the next day. She was back up again. Like, she was really instrumentally helpful. I cannot express just how wonderful she was during that time. And your mum was very grateful, but she was there, obviously, just an extra pair of hands.

But then, yeah, she said that that evening, she then watched a trans-related documentary. Like, she went and found one, and she read more up about it. She listened to it. And in that moment, she just realized no one would voluntarily put themselves through what you had gone through. It was clearly something that you had to do. And it took that visual for her to, like, recognize it. And since then, she totally flipped. Yeah.

She's now helping us plan our wedding. Yeah, she's coming for family barbecues. It's awesome. That's amazing. That must have been a really horrible time, though, for both of you. Like, very horrible, because... It was tricky. Yeah.

Yeah. I couldn't shower for like two weeks. It was gross. I just passed my driving test. Do you remember? It was the first drive to take you home. It was the first major drive shop that did. No.

It was taking me home from that surgery. And Jimmy had this, like, neck. under his butt and was like oh with every bump oh my god yeah but no you recovered yeah that's the hardest thing my brother had a really bad accident a few years ago and he broke his neck and his back and you just he's actually all right miraculously but handling those goods was so hard like you had to get in the car I'm like I can't do this like even pushing his wheelchair I was like you're so fragile so that's huge pressure can I ask sorry I'm really sorry that I keep jumping around but um I'd love to know what point your relationship changed in that you started to see jamie as a boy because obviously when

you met him he was a girl and then at what point was it as soon as he came out to you or did it take was it a gradual thing or yeah it's always a really difficult one to think about like i thought about this a lot you know like the moments in which i guess it changed and like whether it was like in some ways it's like i was meeting a new person because you looked so different and from the second that you told me, and with every step that you took, even if it was a small one, like, you got a haircut, you, you know, wore clothes that you'd always, Jamie had always dressed very masculine anyway. You'd always had really short hair. But, you know, from, from those kind of steps to you taking top sedger, I think that was the biggest transformation. Not physically, I mean, yes, physically, but mostly in the way that you felt. Like, it was like seeing a new person just because you were like a thousand times happier. I always say that it was like, you transitioning, Jamie versus pre-Jamey as the same person, you just became a hundred times more confident and more happy. So it's like a more exaggerated version of yourself, you know? So it's really difficult because I don't like to answer that question, because I can't really pinpoint a time that I saw you as like more male.

But what I can absolutely say is I, and this isn't to be rude, I wasn't attracted to Jamie beforehand at all. I was in another relationship and I, you know, I just, yeah, I just hadn't been in a relationship. Did it make your question, like, your sexuality? Absolutely. Especially when I had like my whole family being like, oh, well, you're a lesbian, you know. And I think before that had even happened, that time that I ran away from me from college, I was just sort of like, but what does that make me? But it was very easy for me to be like, well, no, if Jamie's a guy and I'm a girl, there's no difference. You know, trans is just an adjective, just like I'm brown.

short, I'm also cis, you are tall, and white, and also trans. It's just a middle way of being. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely felt like you started treating me like a guy immediately, like name, pronouns, shabbers that are only person in my life that never messed up. By trans, not, yeah. Yeah, my parents, like, messed up and not deliberately.

It just made so much sense, you know, like, when he said it, I was just like, well, okay, why would anyone object to this? Like, you're clearly happy. It clearly makes sense. It's something that you feel you need to do. Who am I to tell you? That's not for you. That's just weird.

Pronouns are a very easy thing, you know, even the people in the, I don't know, that comes up in the, I guess, not even anti-trans thing, but it just comes up with the generational thing where people are like, oh, it's just confusing. And it's like, have you seen the English language? Like, it's the most confusing thing in the whole world anyway.

Like, as long as we've three spellings for there, like I don't think it's really a problem to sort of pick up a pronoun. But, yeah, I find that argument for, I just find it so irritating, have to have with old people. It's like, I don't know why I'm having to have this conversation with you. It's not that hard. You learned Latin at school.

This is fine. But you're fine. The funniest. Oh, no, go on. I was going to say, the funniest things are when, like, people see Jamie and they'll use he pronouns because they'll just, you know, like, look at you. And by default, it's what you would do. And then you mention that you're trans.

And then they go, oh, she, he? You know, I'm like, you've been doing it already. How are you confused now? That's like, more effort. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like there becomes a point where people actually have to, like, fight themselves to misgender people. And it's like, why are you doing that? And the really funny

ones are the comments online where people are like, you will always be a man. You will never be a girl. Some people are like, okay, there's no way you can be a trans guy because you look like a guy. That must mean that you're a pre-transitioned trans woman. So I'm going to tell you you'll never be a woman. And I just like, thanks. So they write it as a hate comment. Yeah. I really appreciate that. I really appreciate that. It's so ridiculous. Question that's not on the list. And you might feel that you're not best place to answer this and I don't want to be like oh just because you're transgender spokesperson I would love if you if you can to talk about transgender people playing sport and all of the controversy around it it's a massive topic all I'd say is that there's a lot

of people out there speaking with as if they have authority who literally don't know anything and we've just gone like ah trans women must have a biological advantage therefore they cannot compete whereas there are, like, rules in place to make it as fair a competition for all competitors. So if trans women is competing in sports, also trans women have been able to compete in the Olympics since 2004, and there's been no domination of women's sports. They've not meddled at all. So, like, all the claims that transphobes are making for, like, trans women to not be included in sports just don't make sense and are not true. I think it's because it's really easy, especially on social media, for one line,

to be taken out of context and spread like wildfire. But what people forget is that we talk about, like, Lea Thomas, you know, in swimming, for example. Like, in all of these industries, there are rules in place that even for trans people mean that with testosterone, testosterone, testosterone, testosterone, I'm saying, I confused the word testosterone and hormones, but with hormone regulation, it's already very balanced, you know, with primary, secondary, and tertiary sex characteristics, they're already taken into account. and if you start to exclude trans women, there are so many cis women and cis people in general that have biological advantages that are never questioned for it.

Michael Phelps, he's a swimmer, right? Not confusing. No, Michael Phelps is the swimmer. Has like an arm span that is like 1.5 times longer than the average person. Double the lung capacity. Yeah, his lung capacity. He's like biologically abnormal and is praised for those biological advantages. whereas trans people who are considered to have biological advantage,

which isn't really biological advantage in terms of hormones, at least, right? Because it's... Yeah, they have rules in place. Yeah. But that's then reprimanded. It's just a lot of double standards. It's also something that if you start, like, enforcing, like, restricting sports in that way to get rid of trans people from sports, specifically trans women,

that is not just going to harm trans women. That is going to affect cis women competitors as well. There's going to be a knock on effect. I mean, I suck at sports. But, like, I have PCOS, and so I naturally have a hormone imbalance. One in four people do. So does that mean that just because we have slightly high levels of testosterone, you know, slightly larger hand spans?

It's slightly taller, like, more muscle mass or anything. It's never something that's been measured before, you know, or used to exclude people. Again, it's just an anti-trans narrative. Yeah, of course. And you get the sense that they don't actually want to understand the nuances and the complexity of the out. Because they don't give a shit about the Olympics.

No. The end of this is once every four years and the swimming is like one hundredth of that event. And the way people talk about it is as if it's like the weather. It's like, why is this such a massive part of your life? It's so small. It's really weirdly. The amount of people I've heard like I've literally never seen you even watch the Olympics

and all of a sudden you're like a full expert. Like I don't even think you can swim and you're like, well, blah, blah, blah, blah. It just doesn't make any sense. Like it just, it's a weirdest thing to, but I think as well, like what you were saying, not only does it like affect cis. women, but it also, it's a very small step from, right, you just ban trans women from sports to, okay, well, they can't be in sports at the Olympics, so that's going to, we can't have it at schools. And if we can't have it at schools and whatever, and it's before you know it, it's just

like, it's becoming much more. I mean, this is happening some places in the States where trans girls are like, they're finding community and friendship in their sports, and now suddenly they're being told they can't play the sports, even though there is no, they have no advantage that this is school level sports, so they're being kicked out of. If they're, if they're, But you know what else is really sad? It also affects cis women. Like now, I think it's Utah. That's where those regulations are just coming in.

I think the new policy is that people can claim that someone is a trans woman. And in doing so, that person then has to go through checks, which can be really invasive and include things like genital checks, which will be used as political advantages. That's what experts are now saying, you know, these poor school kids will now be tactically targeted and being told oh well I think this person could have a trans background just because they're good at sport just because they're good

yeah it's a total invade you know because again it's completely dehumanising to say to women or to trans people that we have to check you and we have to whatever and it's it's the it's the policing of and I think it and correct me if I'm wrong but you said like it does disproportionately affect

trans women and that's it's all part of the of women's rights human rights and that it's just it's women's bodies being police and that's trans women included in that and it's just but cis women too and that's what confused me so much about people who are trans exclusionary but still so called

feminists. It's really lovely to hear like such a beautiful and like stunning human love story which is going to make such a great blockbuster film on day in the face of the fact that really a lot of the rhetoric around

transgender I'm not even going to put issues in quote I'm not even going to say issues but a lot of quote a lot of the rhetoric around you know trans topics things yeah yeah it's it's it's it does all feel so politicized and it's really special just to see you just existing living your life making it work making it a relationship and just like it's just like it's just love it's just really nice and i know we've missed pride month but it does feel like it just your pride is all year round it's all good yeah it just feels like it totally encapsulates like everything great i don't see it's been yeah

I'm obsessed, honestly. That's too many nice things set. Director on the resume. But no, thank you. And thank you for having us to chat about this. It's really sweet that we're using platforms that don't always talk about LGBT plus topics in particular to just talk about things.

I think that's definitely the way to go. We're constantly trying to think of new ways to just humanise, just minority experiences. The book? The film. You've got it. That's it. We'll set up a GoFamily.

Yeah. We'll be in touch. I'm proud from this book. Easily. Usually. I'm like, yeah, I think, I honestly, I just think it's a, it's a really lovely love story.

Like, and you've come through so much and you just like, you seem, so happy together. Do you know, it doesn't feel like a love story. If I mean, it just feels like stress. But, no. That's, that's true love, though, isn't it? I guess you're living here.

This year, yeah, yeah, in a couple months. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. When and where can we come. In September, we just picked our marriage on the drive over here. Oh, God, so excited. Congratulations. Thank you. I mean, because of Miss Rona, yeah, it's supposed to happen like a couple years ago. Yeah, we're made to get married

2020 in September. But now it's really good because my family are like significantly better with it. You know, I've got my sisters as my bridesmaids. My mom's coming and not just that, but like they're really excited to integrate some of the Asian elements as well. So we're doing like a Mandy. We've gotten you an Asian outfit as well as your white dress. So like it's just so nice to be able to embrace all aspects of our histories. Oh, I can't wait to see the pictures. Oh, yeah. Thank you.

Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having us. Thanks for having us. Thank you. My sister's locked in the loo. That happened. You got ages ago. Don't panic, but when you're done with your podcast,

I'm locked in the loo. I know which one it is. Ask if it's okay for me to go in there. Yeah, yeah, you should please. How long has she been in there? She left about 15 minutes ago. Oh no. That's really funny.

Yeah, yeah, about 22 minutes ago. Oh, bless that, no. I just thought like, I just been chatting with me appreciates it. That's so polite. If that were you, you'd be like, do you answer your fucking fly. I'm just screaming. Oh my God. Should I do that as part of the ACAS creator network.