Should I Delete That? - Just Us: Are we sorry for platforming Lily Phillips?

Episode Date: September 3, 2025

Today, we’re reflecting on this week's episode in which we interviewed OnlyFans creator Lily Phillips, who is best known for sleeping with 101 men in a day. The episode had a huge response - so we’ve decided to take some time today to address some of the comments we received when it was released on Monday. If you haven't heard the episode yet - you can find it hereWere we right to give Lily a platform? Did we question her hard enough? Are women who interview Lily held to a higher standard than men who interview her? We have a lot of thoughts - and we don’t know all the right answers. But we hope this chat helps illuminate you on our thought process behind the interview - and why we believe it’s important to have these conversations in a kind, safe space. We love you guys for listening - if you have something else you’d like to add - we’d love to hear from you. You can email us on [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Dex RoyVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Sarah EnglishMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, welcome back to Should I Delete That. I'm Em Clarkson. I'm Alex Light. Well, we weathered the storm. Did we? It feels like, you know, when you see, like, the eye of it. It feels like, you know, when you see, like, television reports of, like, an area that's been, like, completely annihilated by a tornado.

And it's like, everybody's, like, coming out from their houses, being like, whoa, are you okay? Like, checking their bodies. Checking, like, that the roof's still on. That's what it felt like coming into the studio. morning. It did, didn't it? Roostorn? Yeah, you said that we've still got a studio. It's easy to feel like it's all just going to be swept away, though.

I met a girl just before we came in here who's like, that episode was controversial, wasn't it? I was like, oh God. Wasn't it just? Oh my God. It's like real life people. If you didn't garner it. Yeah, I know. The internet. If you didn't garner it from the headline of today's episode, we are reflecting on Monday's episode in which we interviewed OnlyFans creator, Lily Phillips, best known for sleeping with 100 men in a day. If you haven't yet listened to that episode, please go forth and do so. You might as well at this point. Everyone else has. Now, I think we need to talk about it because I did not anticipate the reaction that we were going to get. You, I think, did. And I should have listened to how we should have, that should,

We should, I, I, uh, I was naive. No, I think, I think I knew after the interview that we, there is so much to talk about here. I don't even know where to start with all this, but I think we knew straight after, okay, I'll speak for myself, I don't want to speak for you, but I think I knew straight after the interview that like, we didn't go hard on the hard hitting questions and we perhaps didn't, like, act not like, address the, like, wider impact. of her work and we had

organised those questions beforehand and we planned on asking them but when we sat down in front of her and when she was sat down in front of us and she was a 23 year old girl and yes she's still an adult and she can make her own decisions and she's responsible blah blah blah

but she felt like a young girl she felt shy she felt a bit nervous and I just didn't feel comfortable going hard on those questions with her You see, interestingly, I felt that we asked pretty much all that we needed to. I didn't feel like there was anywhere else we could have taken her.

And yes, ideal world, chat GBT, what would you ask only fans creator within the current climate? And, you know, like, fine. In theory, there are questions we could have asked. In reality, as you say, you're sitting opposite a person as an interviewer. It's quite an unusual dynamic. It's not like, oh, we'll just have a chat over a. glass of wine. There is, like, not to to our own horn, but it is not as simple as just having a conversation with someone, right? When you're interviewing someone, you have to have research

them, you have to have an idea of where you want the interview to go, you have to have an idea of what you want the episode to say. It is abundantly clear, and you and I said this to each other yesterday. We knew where we wanted it to go. We were very aware when we started the conversation where it was going to go. Exactly. There's only so much you can do. Yeah. We are not hard-hitting, divisive G.B. News style interviewers. That wasn't the point. And I think

our priority, and we align on this, our priority is we want our guests we don't want our guests to come away from here feeling bullied. And like we've given them a really hard time and to feel attacked. And if that makes us bad journalists, like so be it. This is not a journalistic. This is in

the society and culture section of the podcast charts. We are not trying to bring new news. Right. We are bringing new conversations. Right. And that, right, exactly. And that's what it was. It was a conversation. And like you say, from the off, it was clear that where we wanted the conversation to go, perhaps that wasn't going to be matched. Yeah. I also think it's really important. And that's okay. Yeah, it is okay. I also think it's really important to be aware of the fact that, and I can't remember the exact expression, which is frustrating because it was a really good one. Oh, hold strong opinions lightly. That's what was relevant here. We didn't go into this knowing. one way or the other, what we thought about Lily Phillips and what she's doing. In fact, the reason we had her on is because we have been very conflicted over the last weeks and months about these stunts, about the evolution of the sex industry, about this shift culturally towards conservatism on the one side, whilst we've also got women sort of

commodifying themselves on the other. The mainstream nature of sex work is something that we don't understand enough about and we've talked about this together a lot yeah it is incredibly important that we also talk to the people that we're talking about if we want anything meaningful to happen but we can't sit in front of someone when our opinions aren't that strong and drill them because it's inauthentic and it's sensationalist for the sake of it which is not productive in any sense if we'd have sat here and gone aggressively pushed on points that that we're not even that sure of because I, again, I don't want to speak for you, but I don't know that what she's doing is bad. I don't know that with certainty. I don't know that it's

good. I don't know that it's right. I don't know if I agree with it. I don't know. And I think there's some power in saying sometimes, I don't know. And I think going back to what we said in the intro of that episode as well, which was that it became clear that all these questions we have about sex work, the sex industry and that the age old feminist debate of whether it's exploitation or empowerment

when we sat down with Lily it became clear that she was not the right person to solve this for us and to answer and to answer these questions and actually I don't think there is an answer to this it. It depends on which kind of side of feminism you land because feminism isn't aligned on this either

so there is no right answer to this and I don't think there's harm in having conversations about it that leave the conversation open and don't answer the questions. And that wasn't going to happen from that interview. No. And I think people are crossed with us. And like that's what we need to talk about. And yesterday, we're recording this on Tuesday, the episode came out on Monday. I was and I think because you, when I texted you, I was like, fuck. And you were like, I think I knew this was coming

so I was kind of braced for it. I genuinely felt blindsided by yesterday because I did not think. I thought there would be some critical analysis within the comments. So, oh, I hadn't considered this or, oh, I don't know about this. I was not prepared for what we got. And I really want to draw a parallel because I think it's incredibly fucking relevant before we get into the nitty gritty of it, that Josh Peters, a YouTuber, did a documentary about Lily Phillips. When he put the trailers up on Instagram, and this was, he documented the 100 Men in a Day Challenge. When he put the trainers up on Instagram. The comments were the furthest thing from what we experienced yesterday. They were critical of Lily. Fine. They were making jokes. Fine. They were

conversational, but they were not about Josh and about his journalism. If anything, it was congratulations, buddy, great story, great scoop, good idea, love this content. Now, I'm not saying that you guys have to tell us that we did a great job and we're doing a great job. But I think it is incredibly important to look at how you're expecting women to operate

versus how you're expecting men to operate because if any man had done that interview, as many have, by the way, because most of the people that have interviewed Lily are men, nobody says shit to the interviewer. The criticism is consistently directed at Lily, but it's showing me that the criticism

is wholly misogynistic, whether you're directing it at her or at us, the expectation that we have all the answers, that we perform exactly to your taste, that we do everything right is an impossibility. And that was frustrating. And I've woken up with a different perspective this morning, thank God, because yesterday I was a mess.

Yeah, and I mean, ultimately as well, I was thinking about this and I was like, people are acting as if we are the faces of this big news program, okay with all this money behind us with all these resources behind us with this huge platform no we do have a big platform but ultimately this is this is a small podcast it's small we don't have a huge team behind us we are trying our very best trying our best to keep it running to have great conversations to bring you good conversations and to like talk about things that we are interested in and do it in a and this is the prevailing like the overriding sentiment I

think is like compassion that's what we want to do it all of these conversations with compassion we may get them wrong we may get them right but like we are not this big enterprise with like a ton of like resource and and you know I'm not even going to say fact checking because actually Faye's a fantastic fact checker but you know I think I just I'm I'm surprised that people hold us to these standards of like I loved your work but now I am so disappointed in you that I'm going to follow women to their standard and that is a distinction that's what I woke up with this morning that I realized that I didn't hold I didn't hold that yesterday I didn't recognize that yesterday until it occurred to me that the Josh Peters dialogue had been so different and people keep DMing me

people have been so brilliant in DMs I need to stress the noise in the comment section was completely different to the DMs that I got because I talked about this in my stories and I did get upset because well one I'm hormonal but to like it is hugely overwhelming And like, to your point, we've both got really young kids and like, okay, fine, that's not any, right, we are not tax payers money. You don't pay for this podcast. If we were at the BBC, I would understand you want impartiality. You want really good, thorough journalism that's ticking every single box. You have to recognize. And if this isn't right for you, then Fairfox, see you later. We've got two young kids. On the day of that interview, I was personally exhausted. My kids are not sleeping. I couldn't turn my head left or right for TMD, whatever it is. happens, Tommy's, whatever Tommy did, probably up all night party. We are trying to do a really good job within being human. And I think that is what's really frightening me about the internet is it's like you say, we've had all these people and no wonder we're so fucking anxious and highly strong that we operate on this tightrope knowing that one strike and you're

out. One bad day at work. And any second, it can It can crumble. It can crumble. And it's not just a little bit like, oh, I'm going to give this one a miss. And it's not like we're going to feel it. Because we do feel it in the, you know, if we get it, it's like a dip in analytics or a dip in. You know, we feel that long term. We get it. We can improve. We can go from there. Constructive criticism. I'm loath to use that term because I think it's horrible. But like, I understand the premise of it. And we do take feedback on board. But stream of the stream of like, this is horrendous journalism. This was a terrible. interview. It's like, fuck me. Sorry for having a bad day at work. I'm following you. And it's like, that, sorry for the double negative, but that doesn't do nothing to your nervous system. And this isn't to make this all about like, like, poor us, we are victims. But this job can, on days like yesterday, this job can be hard. To the point that we don't want to do it. Let's just be honest about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To the point where it drives us to, how many of these conversations are we having at the moment? You had it after the Serena thing. I had it after the Farage thing. We both had it yesterday where you just think, what's the fucking point? Honestly, I messaged you only like a couple weeks ago saying, why am I doing this? Yeah, I messaged you that same one a month ago. Yeah, yeah. Why are we doing this? Why are we putting ourselves out there to be subject to so much expectation? Not even criticism, just expectation. And I think like fine, people are going to be listening thinking, well, if you don't like it, don't do it. And it's like fine. And also, people are going to be listening thinking, well, you need, we can't just shower you with praise all the time. And that's fine.

And if you think we did a bad job of the Lily Phillips, that is absolutely fine. Yeah. I think we could, there are things that we could have improved on that. There are things we could have done better in every single episode we've done. I listened back to the Lilly episode and I thought, no, we didn't go hard enough. And we did make jokes where we shouldn't have made jokes and we should have called her out. But I also know that we did the best that we could on that day. And there's no point.

If we edit ourselves to the point of listening back and going, we didn't do that, we didn't do that, we didn't do that. We aren't having conversations. We'll never put anything out. We will never do. And this is what we said yesterday on the phone to each other. when we were spirited, well, I was spiraling, you thank God, we're a bit more grounded. Until later in the afternoon,

then I lost you for a minute, but then you came back. But it does get to the point where, and I was really talking to myself because I was out on a run and I was like, right, so the answer is we just do fluffy ones. We don't do anything. Yeah.

And that is what will happen here, is we just end up always fluffing and always laughing and always, and then what? Like, we both, and if we'd have done it any differently, like, let's be real, we'd have been fucking,

bitches like if we'd have sat and pushed harder and I want to go to bed at night knowing that I'm trying to be a nice person that's fundamentally strip everything back the thing that matters the most to me and everything I do is kindness because if I haven't got that then what's the point and that's what we said as long as we can go to bed at night and say well were we kind where we're compassionate like that's that's all that matters to me yeah it's not all that matters but it's the most important thing it's the most important thing and like if you guys had the interview we did where we interviewed the executive TV producer Colleen Foster about Super Size versus Super Skinny

and then like all those like shows of the 90s and the naughties that we felt like we were in a position to push and I can't really tell you why or the difference but it felt very clear that we were in a position to push hard then and to ask the hard hitting questions

and to not let things go like that felt like we were doing it without being I think there are two reasons why we were able to do that in that situation the first one being it was an investor thing that we were doing. We were doing an investigative series into body image. So you have to be thorough. We needed answers from her and she kind of knew that's why she was there. Yeah. That was a very different situation to having Lily on. It was a brave thing, by the way,

for Lily to come on a podcast hosted by two women who are older than her, who are, already the power balances off because it's two versus one, sofa versus armchair. You're on our turf. I'm 14 years older than her it felt uncomfortable if we'd have sat and been like a couple of old like berating we'd have been that also would have copped us a lot of shit and quite rightly as well if we'd have been if we'd push too hard that leads me to a question I think I think we should answer two questions I need to finish the the Colleen point before you do sorry sorry no I'm ready for your questions the first one being that it was investigative the second thing was we were sure of our opinion we were sure that supersized versus super skinny was bad and Colleen was

responsible for it. So we were sure of our position and it's much easier to fight when you've got both feet on the ground. We are not sure about how I am not sure about how I feel about what Lily does. So I am not, I'd be a fool to start a fight on uneven ground because I don't know what I'm fighting for. And that's, that is the problem for the whole country at the moment. You've got people fucking bashing down hotels full of terrified human beings by the way who aren't quite sure why they're doing what they're doing, but they're starting a fight anyway and look at the mess that's got us into. So it's never a sensible thing to do.

And it would have just been confrontational and antagonistic and sensationalised and it would have just furthered the problem. Two questions I think we should respond to. Were we wrong to platform her? No. Okay. I don't believe you can talk about somebody without talking to them without creating an echo chamber.

And I'm very concerned that the way that social media is at the moment is nothing but an echo chamber. And if we are completely unwilling to hear from people who we don't completely in line with, we are going to risk huge and dangerous divisions politically, societally, culturally. And I think we need to be very, very, very concerned of our need to cultivate echo chambers. Yes. I agree with you. I think where I differ slightly is that I think I land more on the side of what she's doing is bad than you do. I think... Let's unpack. I think that probably my own feelings towards it,

that I am, I've worked out that I am unable to separate those. Yes. I'm projecting my own feelings onto her about what she's doing. And I don't believe that what she's doing is a good thing. And I do believe ultimately that what she's doing, her work fuels violence against women and girls. I agree. Can I ask, with that in mind, what?

would you do about it? I don't know. I think that... Do you mean in that interview? No, no, no. Because I agree with you that it is bad in that culturally, the gamified nature of sex,

the commodification of women in this context, frightens the fuck out of me, particularly as a mom of two young girls. What I, where I come undone here is what I, as an activist, feminist,

human mother, want done. Do I want Lily to not be able to do this anymore? No. Do I want OnlyFans to prevent women like this from creating content like this? No. I don't know the answer, but I feel like the answer lies with men, not women. How? And that's something that people are missing as well in this whole conversation

is that the porn industry and the sex work industry is still like largely dominated by men. and that's where the majority of money goes is to the men. I think the answer is with the men. I just don't know how exactly. No. And I think that's what we need to be, what we have to remember when we have these conversations is we don't know what the answer is.

I don't think we'll get any closer to it if we don't have the conversation. No. I don't know if the answer is ignorance. I don't think it is because I don't want my kids growing up in a world that I don't understand. I want to have as greater understanding as I can have. 100%.

And the only way I can do that is by having conversations. But we have to make sense of the world. I think this is a really interesting thing and people keep asking me about it. Like obviously I have quite strong opinions politically, particularly, or like whatever. And it's like if we can't have conversations without crying, shouting or fighting, we need to be quite alarmed. Because these are really real things, you know, like the porn is one thing. But like politics is another.

You know, healthcare is another. Abortion is another. These are issues that we are getting to the point where we can't talk anymore. And actually, we're going to get into that next week about politics. what you've been talking about recently because I want to know how that's been because I can't even I can't even imagine

I'm an MP now I think you should be but we'll come to that absolutely but yeah we need to have these conversations without them without the like it becomes so fiery so quickly

and people are so quick to condemn and we don't it's not conducive to any kind of meaningful positive conversation or something they get or any productive conversation The glamorization of her by having her on our podcast. Where do you stand with that?

I see where people are coming from. I feel like maybe by us not condemning enough what she does, possibly will have led people to think that, to have felt that we were glamorizing. But is that judgment for judgment's sake? Because then you get into the point of sex work is work. We have to accept that. I have to accept.

We have to accept that. It is work. So to then condemn her for sex work without, and this is where I come on down, if I don't have an answer, I'm not just going to throw more problems into the, do you know what I mean? And also, we, people can make their own minds up about whether it is good or bad without us having to say, this is good or this is bad. Yes. We don't have teenagers listening to the podcast.

Well, if we do, I actually welcome that. And there were comments from mums yesterday saying that, my teenage daughters follow you. I don't want to tell you how to parent your children, but I, for one, think it would be a mistake to be naive because these children are exposed to a lot of information. And I would rather a calm and kind conversation with somebody, we did not ignore the dangers to young people.

We did not ignore the fact that choking is being. being very normalised. We did not ignore that female pleasure is not prioritised. We did not ignore societal dangers. People are behaving like we had her on and just like tickled her armpits for like an hour. Like we did. I wasn't expecting that. Sorry. Is it like blow smoke up her asshole? Like I don't know. We just like we had her here and just gave her a hug for an hour. Do you know what I mean? We didn't. Like we did. We did push her. We didn't ignore all of our concerns. We just tried to have a conversation.

If I've got an option, right, if I've got a daughter with curiosity in 10 years time about Lily Phillips, for example, and she Googles her name on the podcast platform, you've got Russell Brand interviewing her, or you've got us interviewing her. I know who I want, she's listening to. But it's true. Kids are aware of what's happening.

They are aware of these things. They're affected by what's happening. Better that they are exposed to. to it through balanced, gentle conversations. Yeah. Fine. We didn't push hard enough. We had one, we did it.

And I did listen back and I thought, ah, you had your pussy. Like, you were fluffy. You didn't do enough. Like, I was annoyed with myself. Yeah, but we, I know. I know. And yeah, and it's true.

And then there you go. And I'm sorry to anyone that's like disappointed. I agree. But I also will find that in every interview will do. We will always be, there will always be questions we miss. There will always be important points that we didn't make. That's always going to. happen. I want to bring in Fay, if we may.

Yes, please. Just on the, on the, in the day in the room. And you, as a producer, I think it is quite important for people to understand, you know, like, we have just explained why we're crap at our jobs and, you know, like, some days like we are going to miss it. But also, if you could just explain from a production point of view, because you're in the room and then you edit it, you didn't anticipate this either. No. Which I think is really interesting. But what can we do? what could you what as a producer as as as interviewers is there anything we could have done on that day to push her further than we did obviously i'm here and i do the editing and all of that kind of stuff but i also have to like meet her in the in the cafe before we start and her PR had texts me and

said she's not feeling very well um but we want to do it anyway so immediately like i we all and i always want to make sure people feel good as they come in and exactly what you said earlier but in the room she had a lawyer, she had her PR and another PR. Like she was never going to say something that she wasn't going to answer anything that was like controversial, I don't think. But we're never looking for a headline. We're not one of those podcasts.

We're actually the opposite. Yeah. We need to be honest about that. If there's something that comes up, I would, I think we, we should find the texts that I send to Faye, putting like, can we take this out? Can we take this?

Because we don't want this podcast in the headlines. No. Because it's never kind. Yeah, right, right. The times this has got, the times our episodes have gone in, I have been hurt multiple times now. Because you lose control of what you're saying.

And like we've spoken about the podcast, like hundreds of times, you're not choosing that headline. And you don't want someone picking out a quote, like, out of the blue. Obviously, some, some interviewers, and I've worked on those shows, they're just poking and trying to find a line

that people are going to pull out so they can get clicks obviously listens and clicks pay the bills because more people listen to the adverts but we could be going harder on every interview but we don't want to be like that

because we want to make a show that we're proud of and there's a reason why people want to listen to you to interviewing people as opposed to other other more kind of salacious headline grabby interviews

they want to listen to you to and your style and to have pushed it any further wouldn't have been like you too and it wouldn't have been kind there's also thank you Faye the point that they wouldn't come it'd be impossible to book them we would not get guests if we tweeted everybody like shit

because why would you I wouldn't go on a podcast that did that can I also say to add a very important point Lily approached us her team approached us to come on this podcast we didn't reach out to them and we were really excited because we've spoken for a long time about getting an only fan's creator on

but they came to us because they knew it would be a safe space for her to talk about what she wanted to talk about which was promoting her documentary of Stacey Dooley I think within that we need to acknowledge that we aren't just a PR tool right

so the whole point is not that people call us and they say hey come and give us give our guests a soft ride can you be nice to Lily that's not the email exchange and I would, I think Faye, I don't know what GDPR rules would apply, but we could show how these conversations happen or you can just take our word for it. It doesn't come with the stipulation that we won't talk about this

and we don't talk about this. Before we start every interview, Faye says, if there's anything you're not comfortable talking about, let us know. If we ask you a question that crosses the line, let us know. We'll edit it out or we can do it post. Sometimes we get an email and it's rare, but sometimes we'll get an email afterwards from people saying, I regret saying this and we'll take it out because why would we want to put something out

that is going to hurt another person, particularly somebody who we've looked in the whites with their eyes and given a hug to and had a nice time, that is not what we're trying to do here. And that doesn't mean that we're not going to hold anyone to account and it doesn't mean that we're part of some big fluffy PR machine. But that is kind of how this works. And if someone like post-interview, if someone's like, oh, I didn't like when you asked me this or this or this, then we won't put if that's the case, then we're not going to put the interview you out if they're wanting full editorial control over the interview that's not going to happen.

Yeah. But yeah, bits that people are, feel uncomfortable with, we're nice, well, all of us in this room, we're like, we're nice humans and we want people to be happy and comfortable. I went on a podcast once, if you know about this and I'm not going to name it. Yeah. But I think it's really important. I was hoping that you bring this up because this is interesting. I went on a podcast two years ago now and it was just after Arlo was born.

And I was so, I mean, I was vulnerable anyway because it was, I don't really go on other people's podcast when you're the podcaster it's kind of weird going on very weird and I will say as well it was a big podcast very big very big deal very big podcast yeah very big in the UK and I was so excited and I was so blindsided yeah by the line of questioning to be honest it was all about my dad yeah and my family all of it yeah this was not the sort of podcast I expected that from because that was not the it was in fact the antithesis of what this podcast was about and I I was so, as I was speaking, I was so uncomfortable, but it's a really fucking hard thing when you are sitting in somebody else's studio with somebody else's team around you.

You know, like coming in, yeah, like in here, I can imagine for them, it's exactly the same as it was for me. I was sitting opposite this person and there were three employees on the sofa just off, you know, like off camera. And there was a sound guy and there was a recording. There was five or six people in that room. And they weren't mine. people. I didn't have any of my people. I was by myself in there and it was me versus seven. And you answer the questions. It was. Because what are you going to do? You're going to stand up and say sorry, I'm not comfortable. You can't do that. And you think, well, you get the first question so you think, well, I'll answer that. And then you think, well, that'll be that'll be that. And we'll

just get this bit out of the way. Because, you know, everybody's got that question. So that's fine. So you answer that. And then the second one comes and you're like, oh, well, I've answered the first one. So I'll just see this through. And we'll get on to me in a minute. And it went on and on and on. It was awful. And I was so upset that I got in the car afterwards and I was shit. I still actually feel really shaky when I think about it because this just doesn't like I am 31 mother of two successful in my own right and if I'm not successful enough for

your podcast in my own right, then don't fucking invite me. That's the line on that one. But I was so surprised that that happened and I was so upset that afterwards, obviously Alex, my husband is my manager and he didn't come with me on that day. Normally you bring a manager or you bring someone. But he didn't come because it was such a friendly. It was so not what we were expecting. He was like, oh, you'll have a nice time.

And I was like, yeah, I'll have a nice time. I don't need you. Don't worry. You stay with Arlo. And it was before we had any childcare. And I was already scrambling and struggling. And anyway, so he was with Arlo. And then I went home and I cried and I cried and I cried.

And we had to send an email saying, please, don't put them out. And I actually had to pay for it not to go out in the end. I know. Yeah. And I was so upset by that whole situation. And I endeavour. And, you know, we didn't need to make this pledge. But fuck am I ever.

going to make anyone feel like that here. Never, ever, ever, ever. Can I ask, did no, Alex? Oh, I'm going to say, did they ever apologise? No, but I know they didn't. But did Alex, did Alex say to them beforehand? We honestly didn't think we needed to. Yeah, do you know what? And the listeners, because they don't know who it is, but I wouldn't have thought that you'd have had to do that either. And it's true when you say we are not after headlines, like, we take, we are, you especially, like, we are so careful. Oh my God. to not say anything to do with your family. Yeah, the other day.

In case it makes headlines. Sorry, we're really just breaking this all down now. But then the other day we had it where we interviewed Kate Ferdinand about blended fat. No, not even that. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, sorry, hang on. Fuck it.

I'm going to tell you all of this. We interviewed Kate Ferdinand. And I mentioned that my parents were divorced shot Cora, breaking news in 2011. Because it's like, Emily Clarkson breaks silence on parents' divorce. It's my parents, like, oh, bloody hell, what she said. And then it's like, oh, nothing. Like, I didn't say anything. just acknowledge the fact that her parents are divorced, stop the prayers.

So we will avoid this because it's causing pain and stress and anguish. Family upset, yes. If I get one more call from a parent being like, what the fuck have you said on your podcast now? I'm like, nothing. We talked about my dad smoking in the car the day, edited all of that out. Kaffa sending me messages going, oh God, you're going to be all right. I'm like, no, it's not worth it. I'm staying with my dad this week.

I can't start a fight. Delete that, delete that. So we already do so much to avoid. animosity and hostility and upset. God, I've really just poured my heart out there. You might as well fucking know what we're up against here. We are trying within these parameters. We are.

To make a safe and nice space. Yeah. It's hard. And I do think that's the bottom line with this Lily Phillips interview is like, we did what we felt comfortable with. Yeah. Faith leaning forwards to the mic. Felt comfortable.

I was just going to say, um,'s probably going to ask me to delete all that. And in that shadow of a doubt, I'm already itching. I'm like, get it out. The fun thing I have noticed with the press is if you, with these things, if you call them out before you say the thing, then they feel like real losers when they actually do it. So it's like.

And also what can they report on this? Like press twists words. Yeah. Emily Clarkson on how press twists all their words. On how they're ruining her, on how we're ruining her family. Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Go ahead. What a piece of self-awareness. It will be for them. It's, we are, like, it's, it's a funny thing to think about. We're not saying we've got hard jobs in the scheme of things because, like, we really don't. But we are trying. I think that's the thing. It's not like we just think one week where we just press autopilot and just hope for the best.

We are conscious with everything, with the trailers. We have full editorial, the three of us, Fay, Al and I work on the trailers meticulously. We don't want them to be too baity. We don't want them to be too inflammatory. We try and make them fair. We work with Lovely Celia to tell a story in a way that we think we could make our trailers way fucking baitier, but we don't want to do that

because we don't want to start these fights and we don't want this, we want peace, right? And especially with women, yeah. That's our whole MO, isn't it? Yeah. It's about just making the world a little bit better for women. So why would we have these women on to just fire at them? And make them hurt. We've been burned by podcast. You went on a podcast. You were interviewed

by someone. Do you remember when they opened it, I'm going to say them off mic. Can you overshare now so I feel a bit better? But just what that was like to be on the receiving end of like a blind side at the start of an interview. Yeah. It was um yeah it was for a YouTube video actually with a couple, a famous man and a woman. And he said, from the offlight oh I better remove the peloton from the background so it doesn't trigger you and I was like what where the fuck do you go from there what and it kind of like I don't know I mean I'm super sensitive anyway and I don't like being don't like being put in the spotlight and like I always makes me feel like like log because this is what I do for a job but like

underneath two mouth free massive spotlight but I get I get extra like anxious underneath them and I was just like I just want to cry and I was like now I have to do an hour of talking to two people who do not understand my message at all because you would know that exercising is something that like is part of my message it's like a positive thing within my message and you're saying like oh I don't know it just but it's a little dig at this it's just shifts of power doesn't it yeah yeah oh my god totally yeah I don't doubt for a second that was deliberate I just wanted to leave I just wanted to leave I just didn't want to do it And I don't know, I can't speak for you, but like any interview that, or any situation

that you're not comfortable speaking in, you're not going to speak in a way that you want out there. Also, you're thinking about that the whole time. A hundred percent. You're thinking about that moment the whole time and you're not able to concentrate properly and you've got that moment. And you've got that moments. And answer questions properly.

Immortalized. Yeah. Like you now, if that clips of that surface, it's like, well, that was that bad day. Yeah. And he made that bad comment. And that's an unusual situation that we're in. And we don't want to create that for other people. So all in all,

All in all. I don't think we did anything that fucking bad. All in all, my head scrambled now. We've been around the houses here. But no, in the history of podcasts, you have never had two male hosts sit and apologize or defend any episode to this extent. And I'm, I know why we did it.

And I know why we've done this. And I'm happy we've had this conversation. And I think it's important. But I will not hold us to this ridiculous step. Fine, you can hold us to that standard. if you want, but I won't hold us to that, not you, sorry, listener. Yeah. If people want to hold us to this highest standard because we're women,

keep going, but I think we need to keep some perspective of what we're doing. Yeah, you're right. Men have said the most horrendous things with a microphone. Constantly. There, like, I can't open TikTok without seeing a clip. But you're about a man saying, I will never let my wife, like my woman let herself go. if she puts on weight after having a baby like she's got two months and then it

and I'm like someone his mom come and pick him up please and like and it's fine like those clips will go viral and people will like fight it out in the comments and then that's it yeah but no one's saying no one's being a moral proprietor of them

I'm really disappointed in you yeah I held you up to this and you didn't make a woman cry so now I have to unfollow you that was all I got yesterday it's like well you were too nice to her it's like well shoot me for being too nice and like yeah okay down the line maybe like i wasn't i wasn't part of an active change in the sex industry if that's my legacy fucking fine can i just also say something as well yes this is like so no this is this is a bit

self-indulgent all of this but whatever we are we are in the eye of it's our podcast and we are it's our podcast and we are on the eye of the storm right now um if we had like people saying okay you did this one thing i really loved joe a lot of people said I have loved your work up until this point and I see this and now I am following you so as someone we can have this bank of work that has been really valuable to people that they have taken value from

they've enjoyed it they've loved listening to us they've enjoyed our Instagram post this one thing that we did where really we didn't actually say anything wrong this one thing that we did is enough to to completely negate all of that all of that bank of work how is that fair

never mind that they are free to leave. What I don't like is the absolute decimation of our character and skill on the way out. And put it on our work, yeah. Because that's all that is. It's like, I loved you and now you've done a bad thing. And it's like, I love you, Alex Light. And there are some things that you do that I'm like, well, that was annoying. But I'm not going to throw you away because I love you. If, well, now I want to know what I do that's not. What have I done? Tell me everything. I'm going to be ruminating on that all week. Thank you so much.

You don't do anything. It's so perfect. I know. It's so manipulative to bring up this bank of previousness. And I think it's just, it's designed to make us feel bad. Yes. And it's playing into this completely misogynistic way of thinking that women are perfect until they're not.

Because that is how we treat female celebrities. It's like they did everything right. They did everything right. And then one wrong move and we cannot see past it. We have to perform perfection. We have to allow women to make mistakes. And we're not saying don't hold us accountable. We're not saying, but get some perspective here.

Because we could have done way worse shit than what we did. And people hold us accountable all the time. That's the thing, isn't it? All the time. We get emails. We're so accountable. All the time. Yeah.

We are so accountable that we are constantly in a state of like vigilance and monitoring, self-monitoring, self-vigilance. I got in trouble the other night to say that I had a big dinner. Because I said I had a big dinner because I'm going on a big run. and I got loads of shit. She messaged me as well about it. Oh yeah. No, I got multiple.

This is really toxic him. I'm like, well, forgive me for having a big dinner. I responded to her and I was just like, can you explain to me how it was toxic? Yeah, because I needed a big dinner, because I'm going on a big run. Big dinner, big run. You're supposed to carb, was it? Yeah, it's the best part of running. That's literally my favorite thing to do.

You weren't, can we get onto this in the next episode actually? Yeah. Oh, no, I've got so much to talk about. Oh my God, it's 45 minutes. We're going, we're going. We're going. We'll talk about it next week. What is it? What is it?

I forgot what we were saying. Ah, carb loading. Good dinner. Running. Oh, exercise. We need to talk about exercise. Your stories. Yes.

Oh yeah, what we're talking about before? Accountability. The age of accountability. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. We live in a state of like hyper self-vigilance, hyper self-monitoring. It's constant. We sense.

And self-censoring. Oh my God. The amount of stuff that I don't say because I'm too scared to say it. No fucking wonder. Look at everyone. So, there we go. Okay. Well, face then forward.

Please out. Let's say something. Let's talk about it next week. So it's like wrap up guys wrap up wrap up Shut the fuck up Both of you You'll have no list Just summarize the episode

I can't summarize it My head is swimming We love you guys We love you loads We really do We love doing this Can I read something to finish out a thought Sorry you say the nice thing

And then I'm going to read something Sorry you finish your nice thing We love doing this We know we won't always get it wrong There will always be stuff that we can do better 100% We do we really do value your opinion Because that's really important to us

And that is the crux of why we do this And why we make this and so I don't want I don't want this to be like we are dismissing your opinion because we're not, we hear you and we see you and we love you

and thank you for being nice to us and thank you for understanding what goes into all of this because it's a lot and it can be hard and we drop a lot of balls and we drop a lot of balls but ultimately we love doing it

and we really value your support I want to read one thing just to see us out, retweet by the way on everything you just said obviously when we talk about people who give us shit we assume that it's absolutely

no one that's listening and that you guys are on our side in like unequivocally we're like obviously you guys are on our side fuck those guys even though they are those people too you are probably also those people which is fair enough you know what you do you boo someone sent me message which i just thought she surmised it in a way better than i could so we'll let that see us out i will admit i did initially think you were a bit soft on her but the more i listened the more i thought that wanting her to be accountable is more of a personal moral issue and how we think about women and sex and my own discomfort

with what she does i think you were right not to go hard on her because it would potentially have come across as self-righteous and bullying and you should prioritize your integrity over popularity because the latter is too fickle. I think she does defy the stereotype. We've all been given of women who do sex as a job. And whilst I can have my concerns about the industry, they are about the industry and not about her as an individual. I've seen her in a few interviews and I think she's always come across well. And this makes people uncomfortable because they need her to be a monster. I'm sorry you've had so much shit. And I voice noted her back and I said, bang on the money. Yeah. Thank you very much. Okay. Do you.

It's so true they want us to be a villainate. Right, we've got to go. We've got to go. Okay. Love you. Love you. Bye. Should I delete that as part of the ACAS creator network?