Should I Delete That? - Just Us: Taylor Swift, Victoria Beckham and and the suffering of being a woman

Episode Date: October 15, 2025

In the time since we last recorded a Just Us - Taylor Swift has released a new album. So today, our resident semi-swiftie (Em) guides our non-swiftie (Al) through The Life of a Showgirl and we discuss the noise and critique surrounding the album. Victoria Beckham has also released a Netflix documentary - we discuss the term ‘too posh to push’ which was popularised in 1999 when she gave birth to her son Brooklyn by c-section. Why do women equate parenthood with suffering - and do men feel the same? We’d love you to join the conversation - you can email us on [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Elliott MckayVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Sarah EnglishMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey friends, it's Nikaela from the podcast Side Hustle Pro. I'm always looking for ways to keep my kids entertained without screens. And the Yoto Mini has been a total lifesaver. My kids are obsessed. Yoto is a screen-free audio player where kids just pop in a card and listen. Hours of stories, music, podcasts, and more. And no screens or ads. With hundreds of options for ages 0 to 12, it's the perfect gift they'll go back to again and again.

Check it out at yotoplay.com. P-O-P-L-A-Y.com. Hello, welcome back to Shutter-D-D-L-A-L-A-L-A-L-A-L-L-E- And I'm M-P-L-A-L-S-N. How are we? Yeah, I'm good. How are you? You have fantastic nails.

Thanks. I didn't know where we were going. I never know. I braced myself for a comment. Compliment. No. You have. You have fantastic.

Nails. They're tortoise shell. Yeah, they're very you. I love them. Do you know what? I did have them once a long time ago, but it literally took about three hours and I was like, I can't do that.

Yeah, no, that's fine. But they are amazing. They are amazing. I'm too impatient to sit there, but I love them. Thank you. I appreciate it. You can just look at mine, pretend they're yours. Do you want my gloves?

They should do that. I don't know why they haven't. Like gloves that are like nails, like really tight ones to the skin. That's horrible. That's really horrible. Rule nothing out. We've got a lot to talk about.

Loads. Well, I was away last week. I went to the Isle Man. But first time ever missed an interview. And I feel like I've been gone forever. And I feel guilt and I feel weird. And I feel like we've not done a just us, even though we literally did one like five minutes ago.

But things have happened. Well's moved on. Yeah, we did one quite recently. But I get it. We've had a new album out. Oh my God. I am really excited to talk to you about this because. Go.

Tell me why because. Well, can you remind me, do you identify as a Swifty? I can't remember whether you do or not. In the same way that I was always scared to say that I was a vegan because I was scared of like other vegans. Okay. I would probably say I'm scared to be a Swifty in case someone does that thing where it's like,

if you say I'm a football fan and they go, right, we'll name the 1990, yeah, 1997 World Cup lineup. Okay. Okay, are you a semi-Swifty? Yeah, like went to the gig last summer at the Aria's tour, absolutely loved it, got the friendship bracelets, know all the songs, can identify most of the albums. You're a Swifty?

I know, but I would be, same reason. Like I was basically vegan for 10 years Wouldn't ever say it I'm scared of the internet So I refuse to identify That is fair The internet is scary Okay so as a semi-swifty

Yes I need to hear Okay I want your opinion on the album Just because I think that's quite interesting As someone who does like Her previous music You can have that

But I think more importantly Let's talk about the noise around the album That's what I'm more interested in No one gives a shit What I've got to say about the album No I am I know you do And as I was like

I love hearing what people have got to say. Yeah. But before I say what I've got to say, I want to know as a non-fan, have you listened to it? I haven't. Oh my God, none of the songs. I mean, I've seen them pop up on Instagram and stuff, but... Do you not have any curiosity when they come up to be like, I wonder what all the hype's about? I'm going to listen to this album?

No. Wow. Because... But this is the thing, like, just so as you're scared to say that you're a Swifty. Yeah. I'm scared to say that I'm really not, like, her music does not... never has resonated with me at all. Uh-huh.

But I feel like when I say that, I feel I've become being like anti-feminist. I'm being like misogynistic and it's because, but I'm not. Oh, you're being a pic-me? Is that what you're scared of off? Yeah, I'm scared of being a pick me. I'm not like other girls.

I don't like to like it. Yeah. I would actually like to like it because I feel like it's very, it's very feminist to like it. But I just don't. I'm going to challenge you and say, go on. If you want to, if you want to like it,

you need to listen to it. Like, you're never going to like it if you never listen to it. I like, I've liked, Bonnevere, I really liked. Oh yeah, no, and you would like the tortured poets, Evermore. Probably, probably, probably. There was an era.

There was three albums, I think, that you would probably, was it forever, Forevermore and Evermore? No, folklore. Yeah, folklore and evermore. Okay. I feel like they were sister albums and I think they would be, they're miserable enough.

Yeah, for me to get on board with. Yeah, Bonnever was all like, yeah, they were some lovely ones. Okay. I also think you'd like torture poets. That sounds like something I'd like. It was black and white, a lot of it. I think you'd like it.

I actually think you'd like some of the songs on this album. But this is, I do think if you want to like something, I think there's an element of like having to try. I do, but there are things in my life that I need to do more than like Taylor Swiss music and like force myself to listen to his music. So like that is not under terms of a priority list. Like I'm going to skip that. It's not high.

I'm going to skip that one. Fine. Yeah, let it go. Here's what I gather from the discourse around it. Mm-hmm. is that people are upset that it's a lot lighter and fluffier than some of her other work and that they, a lot of people are missing her like deeply confessional lyrics and songs. Also, the fact that it's been very promotional

and maybe that the, I'm just, I'm just recalling what I've heard and that maybe the marketing is kind of louder than the music at this point. Go. Talk to me. Okay. Resident Taylor Swift. Faye, where are you at on Taylor Swift? Can I get a thumbs up or thumbs down? Thames up. Slate. I knew it. Hi up. I listened to the album on the way here.

I was like, Faye would love this song. Oh my God. You guys have just got so much in common. It's like running and coffee and Taylor Swift. I don't know. Lime biking. Lime biking. Fucking album. So. I hate it here.

Elliot, do you like Taylor Swift? Love Taylor Swift. Slay! Oh, guys. I knew you one of us. Okay, great. So here's what I think. Yes, the marketing is louder than the music.

There is nobody lyrically capable enough, not the most incredible lyricist, the most incredible musician. Nobody could make music to satiate the appetite of the Swifties. Like, she is the hugest phenomenon. There's nothing she could do. there's nothing anybody could do that would keep her up

we've seen it so many times right she's a victim of her own success in a million ways there's no way that she's ever going to satisfy the masses I guess what she has to do is satisfy the swifties and all herself or herself but I think probably understanding her in the limited way that I do I think that has got to be her priority

You know, she's got the president of the United States sending troll tweets to her. Like, she needs to... Sorry, it's not funny, but it also is hilarious, like ridiculous a circus. Yeah, and there's a bit of me that feels frustrated listening to the album that the disc track is about another woman rather than about Donald Trump. Right, Charlie XX, right?

And it's a bit like, oh, you could have... Yeah, that's a shame. Because she has the power, there's a bit of me that just thinks, you could fuck him up. Like, in the same way that, like, getting behind you know getting celebrities getting involved in politics can be very powerful celebrities putting up opinions

Jesse Nelson put up an amazing postpartum photo shoot yesterday I don't think you can underestimate the power of a pop star and of their fandom so I think there is a little bit of the angry feminist in me that's a bit disappointed that she doesn't use the incredible platform to just go like let's go let's do a disc track about the government or whatever but it's not her thing and it's not what she wants to do

so whatever you know you're right it's not her thing but I don't I'm not sure about the Charlie XCX thing yeah this is what I say with my hands over my ears because I fear she's I don't know how old

Taylor is but she's in her 30s she's 36 yeah we could kind of do without that and there's a bit about there's a song about high school and again you know that's her own that's her own story and it's about someone she lost and all power to her yeah there is some

some lyrics that I live listen to, and I know people are poking fun at their millennial or whatever, where I'm just like, maybe we're older than this, maybe, but then I don't know if pop stars get to grow up like that. I would argue probably that the Charlie X, X, X thing is slightly punching down, but then, you know, like, it's what she's done and she's made some bops. I really like Canceled. I've been interested in the rhetoric. There's a song on the album called Canceled, and it's, I interpreted it as being about Blake Lively. I've also heard that it's about Sophie Turner. Right. She says she likes her friends canceled.

cloaked in Gucci and in scandal and I like the lyrics it's basically did you make a joke only a man could like did you girl boss too hard you know like I thought that said the most of all the songs on the album and I really liked that

there's been a bit of discourse online being like well sorry Taylor but I like my friends with a moral compass and I like my friends to be morally just and I'm like that's the problem with the left because she's not talking about like she likes Jeffrey Epstein as I may like she's not talking about really problematic figures being her

friends she's talking about this extraordinary pylon and she says in there you know they've you thought it was going to be fine and then they've already picked out your gravestone like yeah they I thought that was good and I thought that was that was a good analysis of council culture and the ludic like how ludicrous it is how disproportionately it targets women and female celebrities and I I felt that was quite powerful song and I thought good. Like, we need that. I was frustrated a little bit by the discourse. And I understand, you know, she's capitalist, white feminist. She encapsulates a lot that's wrong with people's interpretation of feminism. But I think Taylor Swift and Taylor Swift are two different

things there. Do you know what I mean? The brand and the woman. So, I don't know. I've been interested overwhelmingly. I love the songs. Most of them. Some of them great. Some of them great. Yeah. Fine, fine. Twist my arm. I'll tell you my favorites. Then, Fay, I need to know yours. Love cancelled. Okay. Liked Elizabeth Taylor, because it's catchy. Opelite, catchy. Wood, catchy. Loved Fave Feele.

That's my favourite one, I think. That and cancelled. Faves with me. And then actually romantic, which is the disc track. It's a really good song. I listened to a very, very long TikTok, which broke down everything that was wrong with the fate of Ophelia. Because ultimately, she's saved by a man in that song.

Well, yes. Yeah, yeah. So what are they saying? Well, that it's a shame, really. like, why did she have to be saved by my name? But that's the whole point of the album is she was in the waste land. She's been dating for 15 years, 20 years, whatever it is. She was a victim of her own success.

She was really lonely within it. No man could handle being with her until Travis. This whole album is about being in love and his massive dick, basically. Oh, real? Oh, wow. Wood is literally. Ah! Yeah.

That's the title. Have you not had the last lyrics to Wood? No. Love was all she needed to open her thighs. She's got sexy. Yeah, she knocks, she's knocking on Wood. His dick. Yeah, hey.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's, that's what I like. That's what I wanted more of that. Like, I want to, like, grow up. Like, don't talk to me about prom. Talk to me about, like, your boyfriend's Willie. That's what, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, you're, you got to, you got to get this. You got to get, you got to get, you got to get, I thought that.

I was driving, windows down this morning, driving in with it playing so loudly. I was like, I'm a menace to society. Like, I don't know who I'm appealing to as I do this. Okay, she's got sexy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what the album is about. Show, and she's falling in love. And it's supposed to be fun and fluffy.

Yeah. And I think there is the, I think all it is is people, people like me get a little bit disappointed that she's got this massive platform, she's got this massive power, and she doesn't use it to wage a war. But look, I mean, to my tiny following in comparison to anything on a big scale, look what happened when I went against the right wing on the internet my nervous system was fried for a month how fuck is she going to do that it's terrifying

yeah yeah terrifying so you know if she wants peace have peace babes what do you think about the promotional aspect of it though because from what I've seen like she has done so many different versions and releases and each sort of promise something different but you have to buy them and it sounds like a hell of a lot yeah I would say like oh it takes advantage of the fans except that's literally how this works

and that's how the relationship goes and that's this parasocial fan dynamic. Does it have to work to that level though? Does she need to sell? No. But what I would argue, I'd say yeah, maybe she's taking advantage of it

but then I'd say would there be this commentary if a man was? If you look at James Bond, for example, does anyone say to Ian Fleming did you need to franchise that much? Did you need to do this many? Did you need to make another film? Did you need to recast?

Did you need to push that? Did you need to do it as this? What about all those songs? Look at the Marvel Empire. Look at, we need another film with another costume and we need another hero and we need another film release and then you need this book and this cartoon and this soft figurine.

Like, I don't know if we do it. And I don't think any of it's right, but I think we probably expect more from her because she is a single woman. So it's not a single woman, but like a, you know, a singular being and she's a woman than it is to sort of go against capitalism at large. But that's literally how it goes.

And I just think we have a more issue with it when women do it. Definitely. I just think she takes up so much space in the music industry. But she's made that for herself. She, 100%, 100%. But I think this, I'm seeing loads of critique of her and then critique of the critique. And I think, I actually think people are allowed to critique that art and that album. And I think they're totally allowed to critique that.

And critique the promotional aspect of it. because she does take up so much space in this industry which is people have put her there and she's also successful she's talented and that's how it's a result of that obviously but I think it is taking up so much space and taking up so much people so much of people's money that I think people are allowed to critique it

and I've been interested to see that people are saying that we shouldn't be allowed to critique it. I haven't heard anyone say that. Like, yeah, of course, Chris, you know, and I, I think I'm, I get hesitant with the word, like, allowed, because I think there's so much of this online at the moment where it's like, you know, the free speech is called into question, right? And it's like, what should we be allowed to do? And what's criticism and what's fair and what's like. Yeah. And I don't know, like, there's so much content sometimes that I see. And I'm like, did we need this? Like, did we need this? You know, when something feels just a little bit,

not pointless, but when something feels mean. And in the same way that I'd probably say about the Charlie X, X, X, X, one, it's like, did you need that? Yeah. Because it does just feel a bit mean. And sometimes when, when people are criticizing, and I'm not giving her a blanket defense because she's a woman, but I think the blank, the nature of the noise exists because of that.

And I think quite interestingly, she was martyed early by Kanye West. I think if that hadn't happened, if she hadn't been, you know, upstaged at the VMAs at 19 years old. If Kanye hadn't interrupted her and embarrassed her and taken her award from her and tried to give it to Beyonce, I think if that hadn't happened and she hadn't been such a public victim of sexism, none of this would have happened. And I think that's quite a curious position that she finds herself in because, yes, she's definitely taken advantage of it.

But as is her right. As she should. I agree with you. So in the regard of like she's taken up a lot of space in the music industry, it's like I don't think, I think we need to be quite like aware of our language there because it's like that kind of implies that a person or a woman only has so much space to take up.

Do you know what I mean? I'm more thinking about other artists who don't get, who have, great music but don't get a look in, that's nothing to do with her. It's not her problem. It's not her fault. But I think when you're talking about someone on that scale and a lot, so many people are investing in her. Yeah. That they're also allowed to have critique of her. Yeah. Yeah. Not of her, but of her art, the art that they're investing in. I think there's certainly like, oh, I think there's two different things there. I think there's a criticism of the

music industry is welcome and you know how it works in that like you say like an artist like this can absolutely dominate the charts and and and it's much harder for smaller artists and you know we know there's like hardly any money in streaming and gigs are the only way so if she's adding and adding and adding and charging hundreds and hundreds of pounds and I know oasis copped a lot of shit for that because they did I can't remember what it's called like the staggered pricing basically yeah dynamic pricing on their tickets and like I think there is right you criticism of the industry and they they copped criticism because they're you know a working class band and to suddenly be charging for the people yeah exactly and to be kind of taking advantage

of people's want to see them and charging them disproportionately was unfair and like there is I think so much space for like critique of the music industry but I think we need to be careful not to when we use taylor as an example and say she's an example of all that's wrong with which people do, you know, and in theory, yes, she is an example of what's wrong with it in that she can release this album and it can dominate and whatever, that we need to be careful that it's not, that we don't tear her down, that it's, because that, it's not anti-feminist to not like the album, it's not anti-feminist to not like Taylor's way, if that, we can't get that twisted, but it is, we do need to be careful with our expectation and with a criticism

of her taking up space. am I making sense to criticize the music industry is important to use her as a stick to beat it with that's where I come on done with it I think it's just because she is but she is like the I mean I think she has the biggest fan base

in the world of anyone in the world right and she literally dominates the music industry so I don't think it's not fair to use her as an example because she is Like, she embodies that. She embodies it, yeah. She's allowed to, she's allowed to take up the space. She's allowed to put as many, I don't know what you call it, like releases or variants.

Yeah, that's it. Varians. All of the variants that she's put out. But I do think that, yeah, we should be able to say that, like, I don't know. But I think that's the thing. Would I do it in her situation? Possibly, maybe. Like, what, I don't know if I would. I mean, she's, she's billionaire. It does come to a point. Yeah. where you, maybe where we sit on our sofas and think,

I'd do it better than that. I'd spend my money better than that. I'd be more generous than that. Yeah, I'd like to think so, but I don't know. But also, yeah. We don't actually know her situation either. We also, you know, she does do, we've talked about this before. She does do so much good.

Philanthropy wise, she does so much, which is not often publicised particularly in the way that it should be, I don't think. And I think actually she could do more to publicise it because I think it would set quite a good example and a precedent for billionaires to be behaving like that. I think it basically, it all gets quite complicated when it's her in that like, right, well, we're not like,

and this is what I see. And we're not allowed to criticise the album. And we're not allowed to criticise this. And it's not fair. That's what I'm seeing on TikTok. Yeah. But that's what I find annoying. If people say, well, we're not allowed to do this.

We're not allowed to do this. We're not allowed to. Of course you're allowed to. But you're engaging in a discourse and you will be challenged. By virtue of who she is, She's got a huge fan base. So if you poke a bear and say you're too big, you poke anyone and say, you know, you've got too many fans,

obviously the fans are going to come. You know, that's an inevitable part of the discourse. But I think it gets a bit sensationalist. And I think this is actually weaponised and used a lot on the right in politics. So people say, we're not allowed to say anything anymore. You can't say anything. We can't do. We're not allowed to criticize you.

We're not allowed to do anything. It's like, no, you are. But do expect some pushback. And that's just how that's got to go. Yeah. So when people criticize her and then say these, it's, people sort of throw a bomb in and go, well, I know I'm not allowed to say this, but, but I really hit music and then, and then I'm allowed to say that. And it all feels quite antagonistic. And it's like, we could actually probably be having an easier conversation without it being. I mean, yeah, this is the defensive from the off. It's like, yeah, so lacking in nuance. And, and, and there's a, there's like a million different sides to everything. But I just, I just, yeah, I think it's interesting because I just think. that she doesn't owe me anything, but like I feel like I would like to see her, do, it would be cool to see her do things differently.

It would be cool to see a woman with such immense power do things differently in the same way that it would be cool to see men with the immense power that she does also do things differently. What would you have her do differently? You know, well, I mean, I think the variations thing is really like quite, it's quite shocking to me. Releasing.

Yeah, there's the demand, so she's just supplying it right but it's like her fans like I think a lot of her fans are really young and I just I don't know it doesn't sit that I don't sit that right with me and the Charlie XX thing because she was replying to Charlie XX she was it was a response to Charlie XX's song about her right but Charlie XX's song about her was the crux of it was her feelings towards Taylor Swift came from her own insecurities and I feel like Taylor Swift is just completely she's kind of bulldozed over that and being like, no, fuck you. It's interesting, isn't it?

I sound like I've got more skin in the game than I have in this, really. It's just from what I've, like, picked up. But she's allowed to do what she wants. Yeah. And that's what, that's ultimately the bottom line. I think we think too much. Yeah, probably do think too much. I think we think way too much.

I feel like when the Beatles dominated and they did, I think there was a point when they had like one, two, three, four, five, six, eight, nine, ten in the jars. Yeah, take that. And it's like, yeah. And it's just like, oh, yeah, like, yay. Love you, Paul. Like, love you Gary Barlow. And now it's just like, I do fucking love Gary Barlow, as you know. Love Gary Barlow. Yeah, but I don't know. One day we'll have him on. I dream of Gary Barlow.

Hey friends, it's Nikaela from the podcast Side Hustle Pro. I'm always looking for ways to keep my kids entertained without screens. And the Yoto Mini has been a total lifesaver. My kids are obsessed. Yoto is a screen-free audio player where kids just pop in a card and listen, hours of stories, music, podcasts, and more, and no screens or ads. With hundreds of options for ages zero to 12, it's the perfect gift they'll go back to again and again. Check it out at yotoplay.com. Y-O-T-O-P-L-A-Y dot com. Should we move on to Victoria Beckham? Yeah, fine. She released any documentary with Netflix. Four-part. Yeah, have. Have you? What did you think? Yeah. Yeah, no, I liked it.

I mean, it's so interesting watching celebrities try and take the narrative. To be honest, I felt it was, I understand why she did it. I felt like I didn't garner too much more from it than what I'd got from watching David's side of it. But I understand why, you know, it's important that she tells her story too. And I felt like she had something to prove to herself in terms of herself as a fashion mogul. Yeah. And that was cool and it was interesting to see it. And it was, you know, a bit like TV.

I liked it. Yeah, I liked it. Yeah, I did. And I understand why she wants. that power to tell her own story after the way people have told her story for her. I can't believe she hasn't. Like, if it was me, I would be bursting. I would be like exploding to tell my own story at this point in her life. Yeah. Because I feel like she's kept, she's kept quiet for the longest, longest time. I could never. What, just sit on

your feelings? Yeah. And like, have these people write all these things about me for so long and say all these mean things about me and write all these untruths about me. I can't bear an untruth this is the thing this is there's a sense of terribly uncomfortable incredibly like when people just say let them i'm like yeah no i know but also no no no no no no i don't don't misunderstand me i petition for the don't let them theory let's let's prove everyone wrong about everything that they've said that's wrong about us yeah no i i think she's she's got a lot of patience and i felt for her seeing that mark jacob's thing where she had done a campaign for mark jacob's she'd been excited and then she felt that the whole point of the campaign was to embarrass her

and that that's what those images did and it's kind of a different time and I know the 90s and noughties were savage and no editorial control and stuff but that that feels very sad to to hear grown-ups and grown women and adults talk about how they've been humiliated yeah and it it was quite like a clear you know we we see subtle tactics by the media quite a lot to embarrass celebrities and embarrass women a lot and I know that that's a classic bullying you know what happens in schools it's a very easy I mean it's the best way to embarrass your own kid is tell them to not show off you know what I mean like it's embarrassing someone is such a horrible thing to do and I felt I really felt for her watching that to be embarrassed

by the fashion industry just felt really cruel I just think like looking at her life I think and I mean I did a post about it and obviously I picked up on the body image side of it so many people wrote under it

God like it must be so hard to be her like laughing face and I'm like I really think it must be yeah I really look watching that I really think it must be okay there are a lot of aspects of her life that are very cushy

she is very privileged in a lot of ways mostly financially but what she's what she has to deal with I just couldn't. No. It's just brutal. It's savage.

And like the body image stuff, I feel like they didn't even, they barely even touched on that. That would be her. I mean, she's her. Yeah. And it was,

I thought it was brave of her to say what she did about it, actually. I didn't think she was going to. Yeah. I was also interested in that too posh to push stuff. That headline,

that's on her having Brooklyn, it was Brooklyn via Cesarian. That headline, I mean, when was he born 98? Yeah. I remember. Same. I remember.

I was fucking, I was four. Yeah. Like, I, that informed so much of my attitude towards caesarians. And I've been thinking about it loads to the point that when I was told I needed a cesarean with Arla, I was advised with my first daughter to, to have a cesarean. And I really vehemently was like, no, I need to try and do it naturally. And the consultant said, he was like, I would advise you to have a cesarean and I feel if you try and do it naturally,

we're going to end up in an emergency cesarian, naturally, quote, unquote, you know, vaginally. and I was so resistant and I went home to Alex and I said I just I need to try I need to know I've tried you know if it ends in the cesarean but I know I've tried then I'll be at peace with that and it's like why like why did I have that like there is this horrible attitude that we have towards cesareans that it's the easy way and you know it's fine and I don't scare anyone off childbirth but there's nothing easy about a cesarean it's through seven let's layers of tissue it's a huge major abdominal surgery it can be quite traumatic beautiful but intense either way i've obviously now had one emergency and one elective because the consultant was right who you yeah but i've been really trying to sit with that and that headline too posh to push was a massive contributing factor well i mean firstly there is no easy way to get a baby out any way that you have to get a baby out of your body is they're designed bronchie I'm, I was eye on that hill.

It's stupid. Head's too big, holes too small. Yes. That sums it up perfectly. I should work in, Ops and Guiney. You put that on the, oh my gosh, nice little thing over the door. Second thing. They should put that on the theatre for the emergency, they should put that on the emergency,

on the, on the, do you think? Yeah. Like, it would make me feel better. I think it would help. You know, when you're going down there and it's like, well, you tried. Heads too big, holes too small. Okay, but yeah, not at the entrance to the fucking press. like maternal ward.

No, no, they just should have it on the emergency theatre. Just so you can have a little chuckle as you go. I love that. I think that's absolutely brilliant. Okay. Someone said too posth push to me, you know. Did they? And I actually, no, no.

At a wedding. In real life. Yeah, it was a joke. It was a joke. So funny. I had an elective C-section from the off. It was never that I, like, I had no medical reason for it. apart from maybe you could argue, like, anxiety.

Well, I don't need to argue that. You can state that. I don't need to argue that, but also I do definitely anxiety. But I wanted a C-section from the off. Like there's birth, there's birth trauma in my family. I did not want to go down that route myself. I knew that my mental health was too precious at a point where it could be very volatile. So I was like, I knew that I wanted elective C-section.

And I was embarrassed about that the whole way through. When people talked to me about my birth, I was like, you know, have to explain. They're having a C-section, it's an elective, blah, blah, blah. I got a bit more confident towards the end, but someone did say to me at a wedding that they laughed like, oh, too posh to push. And it was a joke, and it was meant like lighthearted, but that's how that, from 98, that headline.

A stigma. That stigma has stuck. I don't want to be like the internet about it, but that risks lives and babies and mental health and all sorts of things. And it's really, I could do, I mean, we do not have, like, I need a, I need a, I need a month long podcast episode to talk, say all the things I want to say about Cesarians. Because it's, I was talking, I was actually getting quite upset. I was talking to Georgie about this last night because we were talking about the, the documentary. And it, it's so frustrating and so unfair that it can take away, that that stigma can take away from the beauty and the significance and the trauma, if that's what it is.

but the effort that a cesarian, you know, it's like... Yeah. And even if, and I think about this all the time, even if the cesarean was the easy option, right? Even if what I don't understand about the world's obsession with female suffering is that we are so resistant to women choosing the easy option. This. Why the fuck?

This. Must we choose the hard one? I have... To be a good mother. So I've obviously got a million sisters. one had a C-section like me. It wasn't elective. She had to have one.

And since she had one, she has felt, and I've seen her, try to prove to everyone that she talks to about it, how painful it was, how hard the recovery it was, like how difficult she had it. And I said to her, stop trying to prove it. I know that it was very difficult for you, but you don't have to prove it. And she said to me, but I want to prove that I didn't have the easy way out and that it was. It was, you know, I still had suffering, even if it wasn't the same kind of suffering. But we had this big family discussion and I said, if it was the root of less suffering, good for you. Yeah.

Good for me. That's how I feel. I didn't have much pain with my cesarean, not during, not after. And I feel happy about that. I'm really happy about that. I don't feel like I have to prove that I had any kind of suffering. I feel happy that I didn't have to go down the route that my mom or my other sister did where they were left with birthdrawn. Like, that is a privilege to me.

We do the same thing with weight loss, right? With OZNPIC, with Mangaro, with GLP ones, where we say, you took an easy, you took the easy, easy way out. We do this in such a gendered way. I don't, I think if you ever look at a man's podcast or a, like, life coach living in Dubai and Bali and, like, help you make crypto money, all of it is easy, easy. This is how you can make money quickly. This is how you can do this quickly.

This is a shortcut to success. This is how you can streamline your money. success. This is the easier route. Men strive for that, for each other, for themselves. They want an easy life because why wouldn't they? With women, and I think it comes back to, I mean, it's patriarchy at its core. It's Adam and Eve. It's the original sin. It's Pandora's box. It's the suffering that she was inflicted because she was greedy and lustful and all those things. We are so hell-bent on ensuring that women suffer.

And I think it's because pain is coded. Pain is ingrained. Pain is inevitable. Pain is part of womanhood. And it's a badge of honour for us as well. That was hilarious. You just said, badger. Well, because that happened last time.

Do you remember? Yes. I said being busy as a badge of honour and you went badger. I was like, oh God, we were really onto something profound there. Sorry, sorry. It's a badge of honour as well though. It's like, I went through this great deal. I went through this intense pain.

Yeah. But I think that's it. Pain is synonymous with womanhood. And in order to feel that we have been a good woman and a good mother, we must feel and endure and demonstrate pain. And I will admit, even though I don't want to, I will admit there is a tiny part of me that's like my birth feels less than. My bringing Tommy into the world feels slightly less than because I didn't suffer through this great pain. That I completely understand that. Does that make sense? Yes. I said that. My two births, I would describe them very differently. So my first was an emergency cesarian, and my second was an elective. My second was incredibly peaceful and beautiful and incredible. And I would wish that birth experience on everyone. Having had it the first way, too, which wasn't bad by any sense, but it wasn't the same because it was an emergency, I'd had my 30 hours of trying. I'd been induced, which again, not natural in the sense, but, you know, like, listen to some doctor at some point

because what the fuck do you know, I feel that the experiences were different. And I feel maybe that my first was harder. Yeah. And that maybe I, there was something more mother nature in that. There was something more real. Primal. Yeah. My second was a blessing.

and are beautiful in the best day of my life. Yeah. But then maybe if I deep it too much, there is a part of me that's like, maybe it's too easy. But then I think to how fucking horrendous that pregnancy was. And I was like, nah, he suffered enough, babe.

That underpins. Even back to the Taylor Swift comment, to Victoria, to all of it, we don't want, we can't, we are deeply uncomfortable with women having an easy time of it, an easy ride of it, an easy life. We need to see women suffer.

It's what we relate to. It's what we understand. it's integral to our being. And I think it's how men, I think it's what also sets women apart from men in a way that makes us feel very connected. We have this collective experience and we acknowledge our collective experience

and we love each other and we see each other and we trauma bond and we feel things deeply. I think there is a lot of beauty in it, but there's also a lot of cruelty in it. There's so much cruelty in it. There's so much suffering in it. And I wonder as well, or if I'm barking up the wrong tree perhaps

but like there's something about the men in our needing the men in our lives to see us having that suffering for it to be really valid because part of me did think afterwards like the woman next to me gave birth naturally you know she endured this great pain and she went through all that and he saw her doing that he saw her, like, fight to bring her child, their child into the world. And then I didn't

breastfeed as well. This is another thing. I took the easy way out in that sense as well. And I, that played in my mind as well. Like, he didn't see me do that either. He didn't see me nurture. I just want to say this for you, just in case you need to hear it, you fought very hard to have Tommy. Yes. And you fought very hard while you were carrying him. Oh my God, don't. No, but you did, Al. And, you know, you've often, I will cry. too, but you've often downplayed the significance of the IVF that you had and the journey that you had to make Tommy. Yeah.

But that is not insignificant. And pregnancy is massive. Pregnancy for anyone listening. Pregnancy is massive. And it's more than any man can understand, to be honest. Yeah. And my mum always said this. She said about being a woman.

She said it's harder in a million ways. But I'd never wish to be a man because they don't get. to do what we do and they don't get to live that and Tommy will live in you forever you know like you carried him yeah you made him in you yeah you have the scar on your body and I I really understand that and I and I I mourn that I didn't get to have a beautiful pregnancy and that Alex didn't get to see me bloom yeah beautifully and I think and and I mourn that I don't get to be like earth mother normal mother beautiful mother when i'm breastfeeding because i'm a fucking lunatic because the hormones ruined my life and i think that's really normal however you are

wherever you are to feel that you didn't do it right yeah and i think this is to tailor to victoria to women to everything to all of this it's like there is there is this depiction of womanhood that we are destined never to do. Achieve. Ever. Ever. And if you, like, I didn't even know I had all this in me, but like there are so many things, like those things where I think, God, I just haven't done it right.

I haven't pushed myself enough. I haven't been, I haven't suffered enough. Do you want Tommy to watch you suffer? This is the thing. And also ask Dave if he thinks he's done a good job so far and he'll be like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tommy's alive. Yeah, yeah, she's at fit.

It's just, he wouldn't have breakfast this morning. Yeah. Yeah. Like he's thriving, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, we talk about this in the episode coming out on Monday about wanting to be relaxed women and happy women and letting our children see this. But like, I understand that suffering is, I mean, it's part of the human condition.

Like, let's not pretend men don't suffer. They do. I think it's, it's an inherent part of womanhood. Kristen Scott Thomas did that amazing monologue about it in Fleaback, which. I watch regularly. But I think to understand that and accept that that's part of our sort of ancestral self, but like to also choose peace sometimes is okay.

I think we do feel like we have to prove ourselves all the time. And I think in motherhood, it's the most relentless because you have to suffer. We've talked about this before. Motherhood, good motherhood, selflessness. That's the synonym, right? how they describe it. You lose yourself.

That's how you do well in that. So I think you're always going to feel like that. But I have watched you suffer. Like you've had a retained, you've had the fucking placenta in there for like ages. You've suffered way more. You've had pregnancy lasted, outlived all the other. Literally, I carried Tommy for like three years.

Yeah, exactly. It's probably a bit of still in there. The way you're going. But you are, like, you have suffered and you've endured and you've birthed and you've made and it's incredible. And I hate that. And it's so, this is why when we talk about this online, when we talk about this in the podcast,

when we make a big deal out of headlines that seemingly, oh, it's just the Daily Mail, it's just tabloid journalism, or it's just this. These headlines matter, this rhetoric matters, this narrative matters. We have to challenge it, we have to change it, because it informs. It shapes us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It informs everything.

Yeah. Well, this has been huge. Oh, my God. Intense. Gynorm. I know. You're okay. Yeah, I didn't realize.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, good. Thanks. I needed that. Yeah. Okay. You did a great job. Thanks.

He did a great job. Also, for what it's worth, just before I go, Alex has long since said this. If men had babies, cesareans, booked in 38 weeks, three-week hospital stay, six-month round-clock care to help with the baby until they were up and out. No doubt in my mind. Why would men suffer? What a stupid thing to do. Jesus Christ.

Okay. Well. On that beautiful note. We're out of here, guys. We're out of here. Guys, we'll see you on Monday. to bits. See on Monday. Bye. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.

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