Should I Delete That? - Just Us: We need to talk about Adolescence...

Episode Date: March 27, 2025

Mercury is in retrograde and we’re all feeling it… Em, Al and Xanthe are in the studio today - and we’re gonna be honest… it was a little hard for us to find goods for this week’s GBA. Al’s been getting violent at the dentist and Em’s household has been hit by the flu. We also dive into the conversations that have been opened up in the mainstream in the wake of the Netflix show Adolescence - which follows the story of a 13 year old boy who is arrested for the murder of a girl in his school. We discuss the rise of online misogyny, how it’s affecting young boys and what hope we have of stopping it.This conversation does discuss plot points from Adolescence - but if you haven’t seen it - the conversation mainly focuses on the issues the show brings up rather than the details of the plot. It won’t ruin the show, but you may get more from this conversation if you’ve seen at least the first two episodes of the series. Listen to Sam Browne’s spoken work piece ‘Silly Billy’. Follow Sam to hear more of his brilliant work. If you would like to get in touch - you can email us on [e-mail] us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Dex RoyVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Emma-Kirsty FraserMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, welcome back to Should I Delete That. I'm in Clarkson. I'm Alex Light. I've bought some terrible energy into the studio today. I came in in tears. It's been a stressful morning. It's been a stressful life. And I'm really sorry.

And I'm really grateful to you because I've brought, I've come into a safe space. I bought the baby, though, and I've bought no one to help with her. And she's so cute. She's so cute. just sitting on your lap she's good as gold though she is good as gold by god have i just jinxed it possibly um yeah it's such a niche position that we're in where it's like take you maybe to work and it's like we're so lucky that we can but it's also like i i am the muffler like because i'm gonna have to when she starts making a notice which she will i'm just got to plug her into myself just to keep it

i'm like a silencer your boob is the plug yeah you are that's what we say isn't it is it the user says that if you don't have a dummy you are the dummy a hundred percent i learned that the hard way last time Thank God, thank God for dummy. I don't want to do that, dummies. I am the dummy. Yeah, I couldn't, I'd be very touched out. The amount of Tommy needs them. I'm good, I'm good.

Are you? Yeah, I'm good. Your tooth's not dead. Not so far, so good. Maybe dying. It's incredibly awkward with the dentist, though. Incredibly awkward. I know what the hell he thinks of me.

I brought Jen in there, obviously, because I'm nervous. I was like, someone always needs to come in with me, as you have. I've done that before, yet. and he was like I'm just going to I'm going to knock on your tooth and he was like look I'm knocking on a healthy one so you can see what it feels like and honestly he knocked it with so much force I thought the healthy one was going to come out so I was like no way you're not touching the other one you're not touching the bad one like that and he was like I have to do it to test it and I was like sorry sorry you can't do it you can't do it

so he's like can I put some cold on it anyway he put this nitrogen on it and when I tell you I know he shot through the roof I pushed him away with my my hands. I actually physically pushed him away. And then I was like, when the pain had gone, I was like, I am so sorry that I did that. Like, that's like a soul. I can't do it. And he was like, don't worry. How hard did you push him? Well, like to the ground? No, no. I just like, I like, I like, I pushed his hand away. I was like, if I could talk out, I said, get off. Basically. I thought you said it with your arm. I said it with my own. Um, he's like, don't worry. I've had worse. But I did feel very mortified. Jen was like, like, shaking, laughing

silently. It was horrible. But yeah, so far so good. It's not dead so far. So that's good. Is that you're awkward? It should have been, but it's not. Oh good. I've got very small awkward. My father-in-law, Dave's dad, is staying with us at the moment and I was wearing... And that's just what you need while you're between houses. No, he's actually helping with a new house because he's a builder and he's like, he's invaluable. He's done so much. But last night I was wearing pajama bottoms that are like three-quarter length. They don't have pockets. I needed to go up the stairs with Tommy. So I was like, where I'm going to put my phone?

I'm going to put my phone in the... Wasteband. In the waistband of my pajat. And I did that as I was looking, as I was talking to his dad. And I was like, that in itself feels a bit weird. I don't know, because I kind of had to lift my top up and then put it in. It all felt weird.

Anyway, these are, because I am scabby. They're old, like, maternity pants. It's like quite big on me. And the phone just fell right through the leg and came out of the leg in the bottom. It just like, it just traveled all the way down and like popped out of the leg and we both just sort of stared at it and I was like, that feels really uncomfortable. Why?

I hate that. I know, isn't that horrible? I was like, oh. My phone's sliding down my leg for no reason. And we didn't talk. We just didn't address it. I was like, oh, okay. Anyway, what about you?

Oh, that's horrible. Oh, my God. I mean, mostly I just bring bads. So I had the flu. Yeah, that sounded raw. Yeah, yeah, like flu, flu. I was in bed for four days. Then Alex got the flu for like four days.

So he was, except my four days were when we had childcare for Arlo. So he did have it tough. Just because I was, I had both the kids when we had no one to help. Yeah, that's rough. Actually, we had, it was kind of like fun in chaos. Do you know what I mean? It was like, ah, guys, this is just, this is a lot. You know what I mean?

This is a lot. Because I still wasn't feeling my oats. Anyway. So, excuse me, I'm just going to just be a dummy. Bear with me. Go on. Go on. Yeah, okay.

So, anyway, I haven't been feeling great. I'm feeling a little bit frantic. We had ballet on, we had ballet. We had Alice ballet class. And I was staying in the stay in play afterwards. Yeah. And I was sitting with my friend. And Zanthi put her head back, like when she was feeding.

And she put her head back and there was bright red underneath her neck. And I was like, oh my God, she's bleeding. Like that was my first thought. And my friend looked and was like, she's bleeding. Oh, my God. So we were like, this is so. that, so we were getting a wipe. Sorry, this is loud, hang on.

Well, sorry about the noise of it. It's fine. So, yeah, I was like, oh my God, she's bleeding. So it's like, we were getting wipes, and rubbing and rubbing and rubbing at her neck. And I was like, where is the wound? Like, there is so much red here. Where is the wound? And that's rubbing.

I was like, this isn't blood. This isn't blood. What is this? This isn't blood. It's like, right, right, right, all the arrow is pointing at Arlo here. Yeah, I was going to say. What is this? What's Arlo does?

Yeah, well, I was like, do you know anything that's happening? And she went, yeah, right, um, she's farting. These are painful farts there with us, sorry. Oh, you got gas. Um, I'm quite stinky. Uh, you're right. You know, I was stinking than it should have been. Um, yeah, she was like, uh, Sampthy, pink neck, coloring.

Oh, no. She's got her baths. We've got these very specific bath crayons, which are fab, and they're like waxy. And she'd obviously just coloured in her beard, like all the way under her neck in right red. I have never gone from like panic to amusement so fast in my life. That's hilarious. When did she have the, like I can't, I don't know when that happened. But it was, she's trying to colour her in.

I know. It's so sweet. It was so sweet. But like, oh my God, turn your back for like 10 seconds. And the awkwardness was just that it happened at the stay and play because there's nothing worse than. panicking about something you shouldn't have panicked about. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, overreacting to something is so embarrassing. And that's what I did. No, but your friend thought it was blood as well, so she is right. Well, you know, it was like a mutual, like we'd all overreact. It was like, oh, that was embarrassing. And then you have to just go back to normality. All of us just, okay, well, let's put these wipes in the bin then. Yeah, well, anyway.

Saying about Saturday. That was fun. Yeah, it was awful. That's horrible. Yeah. But the flu in general was just bad. I hallucinated. I had such a bad fever one night.

I hallucinated that there was a cat on me and it was just boo-a. Oh, my God. I looked up and I was like, oh my God. Like, there's a cat. And then I was like, I'm allergic to cats. Why is there a cat? And then I was like stroking it and I was like, oh, it's just boo-a. Obviously.

I'm allergic to cats, let's stroke it. Yeah. Yeah, but also, I'm allergic. Like that wasn't, why was there a cat on me in the middle of the night? It wasn't. It was just booer. That was when you're having a fever. Oh, horrible.

It would have been much more obvious that it was, why would it have been a cat? Do you know what I mean? It was probably the animal that I lived with rather than another animal that I'm allergic to. Boehler's like for this house man now they're mistaking me for the past.

Poor Boer. Yeah, it's a big week for me. Anything else? Have you got to say good? No. But it was something that I did want to address one of my bads. I listened back to our,

I can't remember when it was, when we did a GBA and I go bad and awkward and I said, and I had my rant about music. And I actually really regret that. I do.

I listen about it. I was like, I sound like... A boomer. Absolutely. Like I sound like a 70 year old man. And like music is so subjective. Who am I to say what is good music and bad music? Just because I don't enjoy it, why am I trying to ruin it for everyone else?

Listen to me, I'm a scrooge. So I take it all back and I'm really sorry. I'm proud of this personal growth. Are you feeling bad about the song? Or do you still hate the song? I fucking hate the song. You know, I've thought about it every day. I've thought about your opinion on that.

Every day and I, I love it more. I think I love it more for, as you were doing the lyrics in your stupid, in your stupid little like, no, I'm seeing this. And now, when I hear the song, I hear your hatred of the song and I think, it's such a great song. I hear it from, and do you know, it's about parents. I just don't agree. It's about parents.

Yeah. Isn't that amazing? No, I know. It is. It is. It's really good. It's really good. I can't do this again.

I still hate it But I do I do apologise And I get why other people like it And I'm sorry for just being a I think You know the word I'd like to say But yeah

I'm really sorry I think you're fine I think you're fine Did you find a radio station yet? Do you know what Someone messaged me And said There's a radio station called Flip

It's all in French But Oh for God's sake As we know Oh for God's sake You speak French I'm quite affiliated With France

If they didn't hit you before I can't stand English radio. The music is absolutely terrible. The French radio, that's a little classy. I don't know if you know, but I can speak French. I'm cultured and this is the radio that I like to listen to. It's just a little bit better than your radio. I hear you mocking me and I take it.

But listen, Flip, I think it could be the one for me. Well, it's certainly not going to be the one for me. I will not have a clue. No, I won't have a clue. He listens to Irish radio. Oh, yeah, I've seen. That's good. Is it?

Not for you. No, no. Much too cheery. They're a happy bunch of the Irish. I don't think, I don't think it's for you. No, sorry. It'll make me too happy. I don't like that.

No, you need something considerably classier. I need to stay at my baseline of miserable. The French are quite serious. Yeah, yeah. They are on the side of like melancholy, I won't say misery, but like melancholy, you know? That's, yeah, that's why you thrive. It is. Do you have anything good?

that kind of week, guys. It's been a week. It's a bleak week. Oh, you know what? It's annoying, though, because, like, I am, I was saying it to Sarah last time. Like, I'm absolutely fine. I'm just so overstimulated. Yeah, so much going on.

I'm just so tired. And I feel like I have run out of, like, moaning quoted. Like, I have no, like, you can't moan about the pregnancy to the extent that I did and then dare to moan about the baby. Do you know what I mean? Yes, you can. I've got to enjoy this bit. They're two separate things.

The whole way. they're two very different different things and very separate struggles yeah like I'm fine I'm fine I'm just I'm not I'm not like I'm not like barthing in the goods this week you know what I'm not batting them off yeah that's okay that's all right

are you good we'll get there yeah catch me next week catch me when I haven't had a panic attack on the way to the studio because there was New Winter Park asking me for a good today I know that was yeah that was optimistic of me should we get into adolescence

yes And, uh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, no, I'm ready. I mean, I just, I'm hoping that my brain's going to do justice of the way. I want you to talk about this series. I don't really know where to start with it. Well, I guess some context.

Like, if you haven't seen it, I'd probably suggest listening to watching it before listening to this because we're just going to talk about the show, but I guess have a conversation on the back of it about the conversations that it's forcing us to have more mainstream. about like online safety, kids, male violence, violence against women and girls, the rise of misogyny online. And I am so sick of the BBC and other mainstream media platforms calling Andrew Tate a controversial influencer. Because I nearly just caught myself doing it there.

Controversial influencer, Andrew Tate. That's how he, his name is prefaced in basically every article I ever read. Controvert. Controvert. Influencer. He's not a contrary, like Molly May is a controversial influencer. Should she have got the Amazon Prime deal? That's the sort of thing that I imagine a controversy.

Not, oh, he's been arrested for the sex trafficking and rape. Controversial. Yeah. Absolutely extraordinary. Yeah, that is actually really disgusting. I've never picked up on that. It's all they call him. I've never seen him described as anything else.

That's really disgusting. Yeah, it's rank. Adolescence, disclaimer, I haven't watched last two episodes. What are doing here? I am bang in the middle of moving and none of my family are taking it very well we're in absolutely chaos and like Tommy is not going to bed

when he should go to bed so I just haven't had a chance to watch anything but I watched the first two and I know what happened I've like consumed it everywhere so I know what happened and I guess it's not really about the series is it? I think it's about the conversation

that it's opened up which I don't know. I was thinking about this in the train. I was like, I can't think of any other series or like any other media moment, like TV or film moment that's opened up a conversation like this, like a social, like a cultural conversation like this about like a, about an issue like this. Yeah. And I think.

Yeah. And in and of itself, I slightly. And I'm, yeah, I want to preface it by saying on balance, it's a good thing. I'm really happy with, like, the fact that we're having this conversation. I think the only thing I will say that I found a little bit depressing is how many shows, how many true crime documentaries are there about the victims of crimes like this? And it's taken one about the perpetrator for us to have this conversation.

It's like we're having the conversation about ultimately violence against women and girls. Because it's been framed in this way. Well, that's the thing. And but I think it's because with, we, we've watched a bunch of true crime stuff and all the true crime stuff, it's all like, like predominantly, it's like, oh, he was a psychopath. He was a sociopath. Like he had a, you know, like a sexual abuse when he was younger and now he's like, it's led to this. But this feels like, oh no, there's actually something happening. There's like an epidemic happening. There's a systemic issue. Yeah. Yeah. There's something that needs like looking at. It's not like we can't, which I know isn't necessarily the case. Like it's not. it's not, with all true crime, like, oh, he's just a psychopath. But that's often how it's depicted. Like, we're in our bubble online. We talk and hear about male violence against women.

We hear about it all the time. We talk about it all the time. But, like, for my mum, for example, she's never been exposed to this conversation at all. And she watched adolescence before me. And she rang me the next day. And she was like, I can't believe what's going on about these boys being, these young boys being radicalized.

And I was like, for my mom to ring me and say that, like, that's huge. Yeah. But also, and I was kind of like, God, I can't believe she hasn't heard that before. Like, or really known about it before. And I was like, but I guess they're exposed less to it than we are in our social media circles. But also, like, of course they are. Like, if we think of your mom as being somebody that would be reading mainstream media, going back to what I'm saying about Andrew Tate being described as a controversial influence.

So that completely removes the severity of the situation. Totally. It makes it sound like he's just. one of the lads it makes it sound like oh he's got a few controversies but who hasn't you know what I mean like what male celebrity at this point doesn't like yeah he's pushing boundaries that's what they do

like we are so desensitized we're at such an unprecedented point where you've got Donald Trump with all of his quote on quote controversies literally in the White House last week he had Connor McGregor visit him in the White House this is a man that was found guilty

of rape like two months ago why else is he there if not, if not to further stoke the divide, this cultural divide. Like, this is a situation that is so mainstream now. So, like, it kind of feels staggering that we aren't really considering the effect that this is happening. But it's like, why else is it all happening? Why else has Andrew Tate and his brother been extradited to the US? Yeah, why have they been?

Well, why have Connor McGregor there? It is, it's, it's good. What was the official reason for Conne McGregor? Genuinely, I have no idea. And I just, I can't think that there's any reason for any, I mean, there is no other reason for any of this other than to create this further divide. They want men versus women. They want women on the bottom.

They want women not having their rights. They want men feeling, whatever it is, they want men feeling. They want this old traditional masculinity. We're at such an unusual point with the rise of trad wives, It's so scary. And, like, of course it's having an effect on our children. But of course it's so subtle. Do you know what I mean?

Like, it's like that, it's got so normalized up there that, like, the trickle down, the inevitability of the trick. Like, it wasn't ever going to feel like a big shock, I suppose. And you can see how, you can see really easily how young boys are radicalized. Yeah. Which did you think, because from what I saw of it and from what I read of it, I don't necessarily think that adolescence showed that. No.

Like the process of like boys being radicalised. But I can so easily see how it happens. And I don't necessarily think that that boy fits the typical insult profile, I see, in terms of age. No, I mean, there was a lot that show didn't do. I mean, it couldn't do everything. No, it couldn't. And I think it also wasn't, I guess it's slightly frustrating from our bubble.

Like you say, like where we are, where it's like, we know. how serious is it. We've read Laura Bates' book, Men Who Hate Women. Amazing episode that we had with her, by the way, if you want to go back. She's so amazing. She's so amazing. And she's written a book subsequently called Fix the System, Not the Women. And, you know, she talks a lot about this.

And I think maybe having had those conversations on this pod and read those books and stuff, we know how deep an issue this is. So perhaps from there it's a little bit. Because I think one of the things in the show was that she was, the girl was bullying him that was kind of how it was staged like she called him an in cell and that drove him to do this yeah and i've had a lot of dns not surprisingly from boy mums being like well what about the fact that she was bullying you know it's not fair on boys and whatever and it's like we've got something to unpack there that what yeah but i'm but that's that's the problem right

with victim blaming with victim blaming culture sorry i'm a bit stunned by that but i can see how this happens we are in such an extraordinary situation when it comes to how we protect men by blaming women you know we blame women for absolutely everything so these people were sorry there were boy moms who were replying to you saying saying obviously it was wrong that he killed her they did preface it to say oh it was wrong that he killed her but that's good we should be having more of a conversation about how girls can be bullies too okay yes bullying is a is a thing, a very real, very big thing that we absolutely need to be having conversations about. It is not involved in this conversation.

It's not. I know. No matter what she did to him. But it is. That's sort of how, I guess that's been my little worry since watching the show is that it was like there was nothing from the victim side, which was important. You know, it was important that we just saw the story of the perpetrator. Yeah. Spoiler for you, the final scene is absolutely heartbreaking of the whole series.

And it's Stephen Graham, the dad, just absolutely devastated in his son's bedroom. And I think as I was watching it as a mother of daughters, I just thought there was another family in another scene, lying in another bed, morning another person that's not coming home in a much more final way. And that was obviously a decision, a conscious decision for them not to show that. Of course. And again, I still think the show is amazing. I have a tiny bit of frustration

that the only real focus on her was she bullied him just because it gives license to the people who want to think that she deserved it gives them a couple of inches to think that weird and it kind of

it goes back to what we were talking about with Paisi do you remember Paisi Mahmood whose sister was killed and they did 90Vee show about it called honour and all personal every every like human aspect of her sister was just stripped away in that program she was just the victim and I guess it happens in this as well like we don't really we don't know anything about her we don't I mean we hear from her best friend

jade and it kind of felt like she was the only one whose grief we saw and the thing is it will have been a really conscious decision. Yeah, I would like to know. This was a really inly written show and a really important one. And like you say, they can't do everything. So I don't actually think they could have done it. I don't think the show necessarily would have been better had it had anything else. I think it was absolutely perfect as it was.

But I guess, like, what my hope is is that we're able to have this conversation fully. I worry with all these things that the subtle, means that people who want to see it in a certain way. I mean, but I suppose they'll... I think they'll do that anyway. They will do that anyway. Even if it's all like super explicit and put in their faces,

they'll still find a way around it. Yeah. And I think probably, I wonder if it was a conscious, if it was all a conscious decision to keep it quite subtle and to focus solely on the perpetrate on the accused, I think, I wonder if that was a conscious decision to do that as to not throw too many elements into it,

make the storyline and the plot too convoluted, make it this really intense four episode, super intense, like you can't breathe when you're watching it, series that has like gone so just like a meteoric. Maybe that was part of it and maybe that's why it's gone so crazy. And I think it also plays perfectly, like it or not,

when we talk about violence against women, we do it in that way. We do it in this very passive way, violence against women. It's, we don't call it male violence against women. We don't, when you see how women are written about, victims are written about in the press, it's always women, woman killed, woman stabbed, woman attacked. It's a very passive thing and it's never eliminates the, the men. It sounds like she's done it on her own.

Like she was just walking along and, oh, she got murdered. Yeah. And it's a very calculated way that language is used. And its effect has been very powerful. And I think, and I suspect the show played into that, into that, that is the way that we speak about it. That is the way that violence against women is spoken about. And they often remain anonymous within, you know, even when those true crime documentaries, even when we think about the women that Ted Bundy killed, can I name any of them?

No. Tragically no, which is horrendous. I just know his name. And yet we're obsessed with him. It's extraordinary. And I think like the show kind of captured that as. as well in such an interesting way that we just don't, yeah, we don't give the women this face.

I think it was a comment that the detective, D.S. Frank, said, um, when they were walking out of her school and she was like, I'm just, I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but like, she's like, I'm just so pissed off because it's always, we followed his brain. We're following his brain around, like, desperately, like on this, like, wild goose chase and we're obsessed with him, but like, where is she in all of this? And it's, and it's just, it's true, but I thought they did, I thought, I thought they did that quite well.

That was quite like subtle but effective. They did that whole thing so well. Yeah. She's obviously like spot on right. Yeah. But the main thing it has brought up, which is something we do need to talk about and acknowledge in its like severity is what is happening to boys

in the context of their victimhood too. Because they are being manipulated, coerced, radicalized in a terrifying way and the effect on their mental health of all of this is I don't know how you feel as a mum of boys well this is the thing yeah I'm on the other side of the court

I mean I am and I'm not because like I watched it I watched it just horrified from all angles I was like it's just you can't fathom it from any angle but then it like obviously terrifies me as a boy mum it's like how do you protect them from even seeing this stuff in the first base from getting introduced this stuff in the first place

and the answer is I think the answer is that I don't think you can so it's like trying to educate them enough and build up enough of a I mean I can't imagine boy moms that are watching it whose kids are at a similar age or like coming up to an age like that coming up to an age where they're going to like secondary school and you know your like your control on them is

all like not control of them that sounds terrible but like your grasp on them is is like slowly slipping away, yeah, and they're becoming more and more independent and they've got their own mind and they've got access to all of this stuff that you can't control, all of this social media.

And it's just, it's so scary. And I do wonder what will be put in place as a result of this. I mean, this is now going to be played in the House of Commons. Did you get that? Which is weird in itself because it's like, I don't know if, I don't know.

Because they don't watch it on their own and talk about it like we're doing in their podcast. Or get a research. you're in, getting a male violence against women, research, an expert, an in-cell expert to come in. The more I think about the house is a common, I just, fictional depiction of it. That's a bit weird. Yeah, it's also like, what if they're going to bring in the head projector? Like, oh, yay, movie day. Like, the more I think about the house comments more, I'm like, it's eaten. It's a big boarding school and that's all it is. And they're all, we know, yeah,

yeah, yeah, we go movies today. It is a weird decision there. It is a weird decision. Like, why are you getting like the fictional... Yeah, there's plenty of victims. Ultimately, it was for entertainment. Like, we need to speak to actual like... Go to a juvenile prison. Yeah. And go and find someone who actually did this.

Because the makers aren't experts in this. No, and also it was inspired by a true story. Well, exactly. I want to ask you, having watched, you having watched the third episode, which is the interview, his interview, him being interviewed. I've read people talking about it. and there were people that sat in different camps so some people were saying that they didn't like

that it was portrayed that he was kind of like a psychopath and like the mask kept slipping like his young boy persona like mask young boy like innocent like I'm just really scared and it was an accident mask kept slipping and he would like have this like sociopathic like these tendencies and stuff and then other people were saying that like

that's that is really that's damaging to the story because it's like, oh, again, oh, okay, it was going to happen anyway because he was a psychopath, he's just a bad apple. And then other people are saying, no, that's just like a typical depiction of like a 13 year old boy

showing rage and then getting angry and then being like, you're asking me questions and what did you make of it? So I actually don't know any 13 year old boys and haven't done for ages. No me neither. Like, you know, I've only known my brother

and that was like 15 years ago or whatever. And to be fair, that does ring true. that all of us at 13, your moods, right, are all over the place. Yeah, and you can be like manipulative and gliving. Yes, but I think more than that, for me, it felt in that show and in that episode that, of course, he was being like that. That is exactly, if you ever watch the way that male influencers speak to their followers, it is always in the way that's like, women are going to try and catch you out.

women are going to trap you women are going to use you women are going to manipulate you because that's what women do everything I've ever seen of Andrew Tate and his ill is always like females are conniving females are going to catch you

females want to believe the worst in you females this females that so I thought it was really important that that showed how he was behaving with a female an older woman and I thought it was interesting how he

acknowledged her sexuality, he acknowledged how beautiful she was. And I think, you know, if we're looking at it from an insale point of view, we know that Andrew Tate and all of this sort of like in cell conversation and the way that young boys are indoctrinated by it is that they are, it's like their weakness is manipulated. So a lot of them will go on to internet forums and they'll go on because they feel scrawny or they don't feel, they feel, they feel ugly or they would feel whatever and there was a there was a lot of that he kept saying in the episode like I'm ugly I'm ugly and he wanted her to say no you're not ugly and he was pushing her to say you're not ugly and she didn't say it and I think that was really important and an important

detail because these that's how these forums a lot of it starts and a lot of these boys end up where they do is they'll go on feeling insecure they want to be rated I've like I've seen a lot of that where it's like they want to be told out of 10 what they are and whatever and and a lot of it's like getting them in the gym and it's getting them strong because that will make them an alpha male or whatever the fucking stupid languages. And the bulkier they get, the bigger they get, the more attractive they'll be to females and then the higher their, is it called, is it their market value? Is that what they call it in the insult culture? Is it? High value male. Yeah. So they want to become a high value male and like that's through a lot of tropes of like being

good looking, earning money, being muscular. Muscular. Yeah. So it's like traditional. or masculinity. So I think that episode did well at showing how he'd been forced to have a very, and again, this is a subtlety of it, and maybe I'm reading a lot into it, but knowing, again, what I know about the in-cell stuff. Sorry, guys, I want to just say with the baby on me, like, for that my brain's only half here, so I'm not sure I'm making this point as well as I want to, but, or any of these points as well as I want to, but, no, I thought,

that scene was really important because, or that whole episode was important, because it kind of showed how he was manipulated and how in turn he was manipulating. And yeah, he's got a mask on. I feel like that's a big part of the Andrew Tate teaching. It's just like you fake it till you make it. You are this big,

you know, you've got to grow up fast and you've got to act like a high value male and you've got to be all this and have all this bravado and all this shit. So I thought it did a really good job of showing that he was a child within, within that. Did you feel at all conflicted? Like, did they manage to make you feel any kind of empathy

or sympathy towards him? Yeah. The dad, yes, obviously, but like hit the boy. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what they did so well. You are what, bless you. You are watching a child.

Like, and the actor was extraordinary. Yeah. and I don't know I'm really going to sit with myself and I put the question back to you as well like at what age do you start expecting men or boys to take accountability for themselves

you know when you've got boys at schools sexually abusing or harassing or whatever or being misogynistic at what point do we say that it's their fault fully that they are fully responsible for themselves that's so hard

it's just it's so hard because I mean I obviously haven't watched the last two episodes but the first two I was I kept thinking to myself

like I'm trying to I'm trying to draw on some compassion for him but I can't I couldn't yet I found in that first episode the fact that he'd wet himself when the police arrived with fear

I thought that I did such a good job at showing his youth his vulnerability his vulnerability yeah it's just a baby really but then but then it's just it's then it's it's impossible to reconcile with what he did with what he had just done so I don't know but then I do think it's it is really important that we do have like there is compassion at the heart of this conversation because I mean with in cell culture like these men are super, super unhappy.

Like, suicide rates within the in-cell community are really high. And I think... Suicide rates for men are really high. Yeah, yeah. And I think I obviously don't know the answer, but I do think that compassion is, I mean... Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we need to have compassion for like... And I find this hard, though, Al, as well,

because, and I get this a lot. I talk about violence against women a lot. I talk about women's rights a lot online. And without fail, at least once today, I get a message to a man going, What about men's rights? And it's like, what the fuck do you want me to do about that? I am out here campaigning for women's rights.

You go talk about men's rights. You go do it. Why is it my responsibility as a victim? Why is it our responsibility is the victim of a crime to then be responsible for the solution? No, it's not. But ultimately it does feel like that's how it's got to be. Because it's always this thing of like feminism's gone too far. There was a really interesting article in the Financial Times.

I think it was last year with a headline, Women are leaving men behind. and it was basically about how women were earning money now like we're basically doing really well and we're outperforming men in a lot of work environments but that headline is so relevant like the language is so like women are leaving men behind

like what is that what's the inference there it's like oh you bitches you absolute bitches you just that's it first opportunity you get and you're out of here not a thanks not a fuck you nothing and you're just leaving us behind. Not so much of a passive headline, right? As the ones we were talking about previously.

Exactly that. And I think it's so interesting how feminism is to blame for so much of this. It's so much of the mainstream conversation we're having, and I say that with my tongue firmly in my cheek, so much of the public conversation we're having here is about how feminism's role in male violence, feminism's role in the cell culture, feminism's role and feminism this.

And it's like, hello? This is not our, this is not our, Oh, sorry that we got pissed off with you killing us once every three days. Like, sorry that we're talking about it now. Yeah. Sorry. Oh, it's so hard.

I don't know. This conversation is really difficult. It's really hard because I really do believe, and I don't know if I'm right, if I'm wrong, I have no idea. But my belief is that the answer to it is like the ultimate answer. I don't know. It's not having a sexual abuser in the White House. Of course.

Yeah. but the ultimate answer and how we're going to solve this is like compassion and understanding and education. But also we need... I'm not saying that's on... But funding. Like the second episode showing their school... But this is the thing, right?

I don't know if it's an accurate portrayal. I've heard from so many teachers in my DMs saying it is so accurate. Really? They'd be out... If that wasn't accurate, those would have been all the headlines. Which is really, really scary. And to see how social. media has infiltrated school because obviously when we were at school I don't know did you

I didn't have social we didn't I did yeah but only just really it's like we were faced you know we were very new to it Facebook certainly not in the capacity they do now but I remember a video of a girl in the year above me going around without her consent and I mean it was like we were watching it on motor rollers like it was it you know it wasn't anything like what it is now but I still remember the video and I remember her name yeah and that's horrendous because we I didn't we didn't have social media when we were in school Facebook came in when I was in uni so I thought that was really interesting to see a school where social media is like completely infiltrated we have to we have to put pressure on a government here and ask about

in a week where it's like disability benefits are being cut and you know the NHS is famously and obviously and like heartbreaking me on its knees it's like we're not even talking about education nearly as much as what we need to be well that's why it's I mean that's why it's positive to hear that it's being shown in the house of Commons, whatever that means. But even that it's like igniting a conversation that's happening like close to power. Like that is really cool. Something I noticed in me.

But also what else would they be talking about? Like of course there should be happening. Like why is it taken to Stephen Graham making a very compelling four part Netflix series for them for them to. Because my mom and like that generation aside like they, that's a whole, you know, a whole thing. Like they don't really, you know, have access to social media, blah, blah, blah. but the government like what else are you doing if not this like you have not one of the biggest threats facing you know the next generation well every generation of women like a few weeks ago jess phillips read out in the house of commons the names of every woman who had been killed in the UK by men this year and it took her 12 minutes to do so and it does slightly frustrate me i'm going to remove the word slightly it pisses me off so much that she can do that and nothing changes

and then it's like we'll play this we'll play this Netflix show and hopefully that'll bring them over to the cause do you know what I thought was really interesting and again this is kind of putting the onus on the teachers which I don't really mean to

but there was just something really interesting an interesting moment I think in episode two I don't know if it was intentional or not where the teacher the head teacher who's showing them around she amid this like all of this

chaos, like all of this stuff happening, this deep, dark stuff happening in the school that's led to a murder. And she, like, passed two boys on the stairs and she was like, took your shirts in. Relevant, though. Super relevant. But that's the thing. I don't know if it's intentional or not, because it's, because it's like, that's probably the focus. That's probably the focus in schools. It's like, tuck your shirts in. Girls, your skirts are too short. Yeah, interestingly, on the tuck your shirts and thing, I think it will have been very deliberate. There was a spoken word thing by a guy called Sam Brown and we're going to play a little bit of it now. Do you remember when we were all at school? We were all silly and we used to throw glue sticks

at the ceiling because we wanted to and what the fuck was she going to do? Miss Lovitt, there's 30 of us and one of you, but glue stop sticking. Love it's tears had to dry. I don't think we were malicious, no, just a bit fucked up inside. And one of us were called Billy. Billy fucking loved dreamed of glue sticks every night till years later Billy were at a party and this girl she was drunk out of her mind and Billy felt silly so Billy flicked off the lights because he wanted to and what the fuck was she gonna do screaming there's one of me and none of you and some things just stick some tears never dry and those of us who knew we were so surprised because Billy weren't malicious no just a bit fucked up inside you see

billies aren't evil. They're a failure of a system. A misguided form of discipline. My school had discipline. When I was at school, we used to walk down the halls saying the most misogynistic shit and a teacher will come over and tell us to tuck our shirts in. You see, discipline it works. It reinforces by the time I was in upper sixth and you four guys with loose shirts and six who had sexually assaulted. I think that just encapsulates it like perfectly. It's like, I don't know I'm so frightened of school I'm always starting school in

two years and that's quite a long time but it's not that long a time and I don't know and I actually I can't believe I'm at this point where I feel more grateful to be a mum of girls knowing that they are the ones

the 97% chance of them being sexually harassed by the times they're 24 or whatever like the horrendous stats against knowing as we do about violence against women, I still feel more confident parenting a girl. And I just hope that, like, boy moms are equally terrified and equally scared. I mean, on you?

Yes. And that's crazy. Terrified, absolutely. But, but, like, those boy moms messaging you and saying, oh, but what about her bullying him? That scares me. It does scare me. And it's, I want to be careful because they're not saying, like,

oh, she deserved to die because she bullied him. Obviously not, but I can't believe it's even a... Of course it is, Al. Like, think... I mean, how many headlines have we talked about in this episode? It's like, absolutely, of course... Of course they think like that. We are all...

You know, this is the other thing, and I think it's probably something we can leave it on. It's not just young boys being indoctrinated. It's not just young boys being manipulated. We are all being manipulated by this. We live with a media that is so victim-blaming, that's so misogynistic, it's all so... So, my God, it's so fucking depressing.

Of course, we think like this. Anyone that doesn't think like this is completely breaking them old and it's had to do so much work to unlearn all the shit that we've been taught. We have been taught to blame victims and to blame women. We have been taught to believe

that men are better and men are stronger. We have been taught all of this stuff. So any time that we, you know, we think anything different, we've had to, like, work quite hard to get that thought. I know, I do agree with you. I don't want to get, like, we don't have time to, like, go into it. But then I'm like, anyone who's messaging you is on Instagram, has access to

and is exposed to all of this stuff, or at least not all of it, like some of it. I don't know. I just, I don't, I don't know how we're here. Yeah. It's terrifying. I just don't know how acceptable it is to think like that. Well, hopefully the screening in the House of Commons will lead to something. hopefully the movie day

pulling out the OHP I learned some stuff from those film days I do know that this isn't the last of the conversation that we're going to have about it and full disclosure we're actually looking to interview someone

around like someone that was like close to the series or who had contributed to it in some way we didn't manage to do it in time but we are still looking out for someone holding out for someone so bear with us and M's hats us apart because Xanthi's a little bit unhappy

but she's been good as gold, bless her. She sat here for, she sat here for an hour now, bless her. So she's done so well. Thank you so much for listening, guys. And we will see you on Monday. Should I delete that as part of the ACAST creator network?