Should I Delete That? - Life as a Surrogate

Episode Date: June 2, 2024

This week on the podcast, Em and Alex are joined by Kim, a traditional surrogate who is known online as the Travelling Surrogate. Kim shares her story, which includes two surrogacy journeys thus far, and answers all of the girls' burning questions about the incredible life of a surrogate.You can follow Kim on Instagram @thetravellingsurrogatePurchase tickets here for our first ever ✨LIVE TOUR!!✨Follow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And then when I was 25, I was like, no, I'm really going to do it. I don't want my own kids, but I want to use my uterus. I want to carry a pregnancy and experience that, but I don't want a family. Like watching that moment when the baby was passed to one of the dads. And I made eye contact with the other dad. And I was like, oh my God, I've just made it a whole human. I've just made a whole family. Hello, and welcome back to Should I Delete That.

I am Alex Light. And I am not M. Clarkson. Well, last time I checked anyway I am Alex's better half As proved by science Dave Dismal Dave speaking shit I'm going to do that for the next 10 minutes

I might as well start off like that Noam for this GBA because she Child care issues Child care issues So I thought I would ask Dave to jump in Good Hit me with your good That's a, sorry, what good?

Sorry, that's a terrible. You're supposed to be a presenter. Yeah, good. What's your good? You just like pull random words out. Fog. Okay, this. You should be starting this.

You should lead the way. Show me the way. Show me the golden touch. Do you know what this shows? I am not prepared. You do not listen to the podcast. Because this is how we start. I go good or M goes, you're good.

And this is how we go. So, good. Dave. Yeah, off you go. See you later. You want me to start? Yeah. You haven't prepared anything, have you? No. I did give you warning. I did tell you to prepare something.

You've given me about 25 minutes. Plenty of time. My good is that I just cooked as a meal and it was, wasn't it beautiful? You gave it a seven and a half out of ten, which? Seven out of ten. Quantity wasn't there, but as I said, I am a human dustbin. Nothing I could do about the quantity because it was like a meal prep thing, you know, when it comes in all the meal preps.

So I give Hello Fresh and their recipes. flavour. I like it, sometimes lacking quantity, but, you know, as I say, I did, I was putting Tommy down so I didn't witness the usual absolute chaos in the kitchen. But you were fine. Yeah, yeah. Chilled, calm.

I produced some beautiful tacos. Tacos? Yeah. They're not wraps, technically tacos are more hard-shelled. I actually think the recipe did say to make to taco them and I was like, this is too much. Just, no.

Has anyone ever? ever use that phrase to taco them it's a verb yes to taco i once tackled them um yeah no they were good um what's your good but i think i think we both agree can i just finish that we prefer for heaters yeah yeah sorry was that not interesting so interesting honestly you should see the faces looking back of me she's just looking at me going and what what's your good and don't you deaf i can say the meal that we just ate no that can never qualify as good um i had a lovely couple of days to myself with tommy

oh and wait your good is that i went away no obviously my good and to a certain extent so my good is that al and em are obviously rocking on round the country doing their tour which is both estimate I will do a sort of I can't think of the word but I will give them g them up a bit that they've done obviously fantastically well

to get into a position like this work they're absolutely but hind's off to provide great shows every week and obviously justify it with a tour so I'm delighted for them both and obviously I I hear it's going fantastically well so that is my good in combination with I got to spend some lovely time with Tommy

and look after him properly my bad is that I haven't actually been to a show yet because I've been looking after Tommy because obviously his bedtime means that but that is soon to change yeah yeah they're coming on tour with us they're coming on to all the roadies and I think chaos will ensue

but yeah very much looking forward to seeing I'm not sure whether I'm going to get to a show but I'll see all the behind the scenes before and then go and put Tommy to bed but yeah so that's my good and actually my bad segue is that I haven't been able to see a show yet. So there you go.

Well done. You were unprepared, but you pulled it out the bag. Sorry, guys. Betty's in the background. Dying to go outside and chase a squirrel. In the snow? Well, rain. Okay.

Might as well be snowing. Can we clarify you know the difference between snow and rain? My bad. My bad is that I came back from the first leg of the tour yesterday and I was horrifically tired and I don't know why. Absolutely horrifically tired. I've been a raging bitch ever since. I can conquer.

If anyone has had the pleasure of being in Al's company, she, as you will probably attest to, is a lovely human being that is very considerate, kind, all of the above. Unfortunately, in the last 24 hours, that has not been the case. I've been like climbing the walls. No, not that, actually. been too tired. Is it because we don't live up to life on tour? Yeah, it's like a dopamine

adrenaline come down, you know. Back to Dismal Dave and Tommy. You know. You like Tommy. It's just not me. From the bright lights of Glasgow to Dismal Dave. It's rough. I see that. Glasgow was so fun. And what was your, um, awkward. My awkward was that, uh, coming back from Glasgow. Yes. We got the plane home, which was so, I mean, I, I mean, I, I've got to say, I love a train. I love a train ride. I actually love... Can I just clarify that sentence,

we got a plane home. It's like you got an Uber. You took a flight or got a flight home. We got a plane home. Oh, does that sound like private jet? Yeah. No, no. So we are staying at the Premier in on this tour.

There's no budget for a private jet just yet. Yeah. We flew home. And I got off the plane. Well done. Thank you. You're about to retract that. When I got on the plane, so I had with me my little, my tiny little cross-body bag and then a big, big bag, big handbag, and then also a suitcase, a little carry-on suitcase. Did you pack too much?

I actually didn't. I used everything, but I got off the plane and I just stood up and walked straight off and walked down the stairs and got on the bus to go to the terminal. I was like, where are all my bags? I'd left them all on the plane. So I had to like sprint off the bus, sprint back up the stairs. I tried to get back on the plane and the woman, no body slammed me. She was like, I can't let you back on this plane, which I didn't realize.

I didn't know that I couldn't get back on the plane, but I couldn't. And I was like, okay, I'm really sorry, but I've left everything I own on the plane. I just got off. Can you describe her face when you said that to her and she looked at you? They were laughing. She was with a guy and they were both laughing.

Fair enough. Honestly, I'd be laughing too. Dickhead. So your brain temporarily just let you down? I mean, don't act surprise, Dave. It's like almost you were asleep all the way. The thing went off. You took your seat bell off and went, see you guys.

Bye. I just walked off. I once left a laptop in behind the seat pocket on a flight to got to New York for work but I only realized when I got into the hideous immigration queue at New York and I was so fortunate that walking down the other way past my aisle was

one of the flight attendants that had been on the flight and I said is it any chance that someone and she was able to go again because normally I would have spent probably about a week trying to get that back so yeah it's a pain in the earth when your brain completely losing but you had an hour's flight from Glasgow

whereas I was on a seven hour red eye or something no but it's not like I took everything but left one thing Dave I left everything did you take anything out of the back of the seat or I didn't even get that far I was just on my phone and headphones so I didn't have to do that

I just put everything up above and I left everything up above so Oh, there we go. Yeah. Have you got an awkward for me? Generally, I am awkward, at most stages of the day. No awkwards, really.

I mean, the usual, as I've come to get used to with a young child, is the defecating in public and also wanting a bottle at the same time. I was in a well-known bakery slash coffee shop. Gales. That one. And I was getting a bottle ready. He then decided to defecate, had to go and change him. Deficate's a horrible word. Can't you just say poo?

I don't want to say shit himself. He pooed. He pooed. He pooed, rather aggressively. Had to go and clean him up, change him. Come back, finish the bottle. he's crying he's kicking off and then I out of sympathy but then I realized who was actually saying do you want a hand was a mother of twins and I was like yeah this is rather embarrassing I've got one child she's got two who are perfectly behaved sat there drinking you know you know and I've got this absolute rejutor of a child who's off his nut waiting for a bottle so I felt slightly diminished in my fatherly duties that But that would be my slightly awkward.

I am scared about taking him in three cities and three days. Yeah, it's going to be interesting. I always find the most difficult thing with him, because he is at the stage where obviously he poos when he wants, is when you go to a place, it's only got one toilet, which is also the baby changing, and you are in a long queue waiting for, and he has gone to town and you're like,

guys, you're thinking, can I ask them, can I go first? And it's seeping through the suit. We have not found nappies yet that will contain his poo. Yeah, there are ones with the ones with the, thing on the back flap on the back if honestly if anyone knows

because we've tried I think we need to silicon the nappies in We've tried loads Honestly we've tried loads But they always come out Of the back

They don't come out of the side The frills do a good job But it comes up the back And it always comes out of the back I don't know It's just the force With which he shoots it out We're in for a fun few days

Aren't we I can't actually think about it right now I'm fearful Well I think it all Serve you well For your good bad And the awkward For next week

I mean, it's all going to be all three of them at every moment, every single moment during the day. We haven't impact yet. But yeah, that was, that's about the good ban of the awkward. Not overly interesting, as usual. So you're welcome, everyone. We expect nothing. You've tuned in, expecting hilarity and vibes, I imagine. Vibes.

That's the first time you ever said that word, isn't it? It gave me the ick. Well, there you go. And you've got none of those, so you're welcome. Okay. Note this day in your diary, Dave Melia, never to be seen or heard again on this podcast. But it's been a pleasure. As always, it's been fun.

I'm sure Daisy, when she edits this, will edit me down to about 30 seconds, as she should. As she should. Interview, I haven't told you who's on the podcast this week. Elton John. You got it. Nailed it. Can you imagine? This week's interview is a belter.

Go on. It's with Kim, aka the travelling surrogate. Fantastic. Yep. Kim's a surrogate. Big fan. She has two surrogate journeys. Wow.

Okay. And I've never met anyone who's been a surrogate before or spoken to anyone who's surrogated. It's not a verb, is it? I think it's a bit like what you said earlier. Tacode. Tacode. Tacode. No, it doesn't work.

To surrogate. No, okay. I've never met or spoken to anyone who has been a surrogate. And I had so many questions. So did I. And we were like spilling out of ourselves. asking all these questions. Fascinating. Oh, so fascinating to talk to her. And just a brilliant interview. Anything around fertility and bringing new life into the world is always an interesting

thing, given how many different ways of doing it now there are, I'm sure it is. I can't wait to listen, despite what you think, I will listen. Bullocks. Dave will never listen. But hopefully you guys will, and I hope you enjoy it. Here is The Brilliant Kim. Hi, Kim. Hello. Hi. Thank you so much for coming in today. Thank you so much for coming today when you are three weeks postpartum.

I actually feel very guilty for making you come in. I can't believe you said yes. Alex put it in the WhatsApp group. She went, is it really cheeky to ask Kim's coming on the 21st of May when she literally had her baby on the first of May? And we were like, yes. And then you asked anyway. And then she was like, she said yes. It was like, what?

You're amazing. I was in the bath when I replied. I was like, yeah, by the way, I've just had the baby. So yeah, I can definitely do the first. Oh, my God. Incredible. Oh my God. Three weeks ago. How do you feel? Still a bit sore. But yeah, pretty much back to myself. Like, in my mind, I feel quite back to myself because I'm not producing milk this time.

And I think the prolactin hormone really didn't sit well with me last time. So I took a little drug to inhibit it. And yeah, all my hormones and stuff have settled down a lot quicker with that. Wow. Oh, my gosh. Okay. This is like a fascinating journey that I'm so excited to talk to you about. can we go back to the beginning and can you tell everyone who's listening who you are what you do and how you came to do it oh that's a lot of questions in one i always feel like sila black when i say that like where is it what's your name and where'd you come from anyway yeah i'm so going to forget all of those questions but yeah so my name's kim yeah i go by the traveling surrogate on

instagram and youtube and stuff i documented my first journey a lot more than i did this journey I was just knackered during this pregnancy. My mum was a surrogate six times throughout my childhood. So she carried a baby for someone else when I was five. So I sort of understood like the ins and outs of pregnancy and how people get pregnant from quite a young age. And yeah, the first time I mentioned I was thinking about surrogacy, I was only 14.

And my mom was just like, that's never going to happen. You know, it's a pipe dream, like whatever. And then I said it again when I was 21. And then when I was 25, I was like, no, I'm really going to do it. I don't want my own kids. but I want to use my uterus. I want to carry a pregnancy in, experience that, but I don't want a family. Wow.

That's an amazing awareness to have. I have so many questions. That's such a young age as well. This is such a big question that I'm jumping way ahead, but I can't not ask it here. How did your feelings change? Carrying the baby was at any point where it made you reassess your want for a family? Did the hormones affect you in any way? Not at all

With my first journey I was a little bit more cautious of not thinking about the baby too much I very clearly didn't want to bond with the baby so I would think about my pregnancy and how my body was changing and all those amazing things but I would really not think about the baby or the child or the future or that they would be an adult one day or anything like that

I just kept it very present and only thinking about now and looking after my body and the pregnancy and everything whereas this time I felt I could connect a little bit more because I was confident that I didn't want a family that 100% the hormones wouldn't affect me so yeah I allowed myself to think about what he would look like

and what hair colour he might have and what eye colour he might have and the family as a future scenario as well that's amazing yeah that's incredible because were you worried though the first time. I mean, yes, you took, like, steps to, like, prevent that, you know, prevent forming a bond with the baby, but were you worried that it was just going to happen

anyway, you know, like the, I mean, after I gave birth, I had hormones that I just had never experienced even, like, a tenth of. It was just, like, my whole body, my whole mind, it felt like it was, I was, it was just, like, wild and these, like, very, like, animalistic, like, instinct I don't know if that makes sense but I just felt like this crazy thing that I'd never felt before and did you worry that that was

going to happen to you and then you kind of then had no choice so I was like 99% sure that I would be okay there was 1% where I was like okay there's a question mark I might not be I might not feel okay but if that 1% of me then pushes me to go on to want kids I can still get pregnant again and then have my own child

Yeah, that was kind of the way I saw it and there's not many child-free surrogates most surrogates come into it after having their own family. Do they? So, you know, there wasn't much experience to go on. Okay. Yeah, my mum had already had me

before she started surrogacy, so even her experience was different to mine. So there was that 1% question mark, never a question of whether I would keep that baby but whether it would change my mind that I would want to become a mother at some point in my life. How did your mum get into surrogacy?

she literally saw something about it on TV and was like oh I could do that really it as simple as that yeah wow yeah and she did it six times yeah yeah over 10 years so sometimes she was getting pregnant very quickly after giving her yeah so how many times was she how many six pregnancies six pregnancies six pregnancies yeah so they were all six surrogacies and you yeah oh yeah seven pregnancies yeah forget about myself wow that's a lot of times to be pregnant yeah I do not envy her no I don't think I'm that man You don't? How many times do you think you could do it? I've got four in my head.

Wow. So there's definitely, because this is one of the reasons I really wanted a V-back this time because I didn't want to be limited by C-sections on how many pregnancies I could have. So you had a C-section with your first. Yes. Was it an emergency? It's sort of. Yeah.

I'd been in Labour for 24 hours and I was just exhausted by that point and I asked the midwife how long I would be pushing for and she said at least two hours and I was like, I haven't got two hours of pushing in me. So agreed to the C-section at that point because they'd spoken about Vontuse and foreseps and I was like, I don't really like the idea of pulling a baby out by its head. Yeah. Yeah, so it agreed to the C-section. But the way they wrote up my notes I didn't really like as well

because surely they could just write maternal exhaustion or something like that, but they'd put it down to decelerations, but the baby's heart rate had been fine. There'd be one deceleration at 5pm and he was born at 1 o'clock in the morning, so that's not an emergency. Yeah, yeah. Was everyone in the hospital aware that you were a surrogate?

Yes. So I had a home birth this time. So that was all completely different to last time. Both times we've had kind of like multi-faceted Zoom calls where we've had the head of midwifery. We've had, oh God, I can't even remember the titles of everyone, the consultant midwife. Just absolutely everyone involved like 10 different people on a Zoom call talking about one pregnancy. It's quite surreal. And do the parents, do they have a say in how you deliver the baby? Every surrogacy arrangement's different. I personally wouldn't want to be told how to birth a child.

It's completely your... Yeah. But there are some women that would probably be okay with that. And obviously if a cesarean was medically advised, then I would be sensible about it. But yeah, a home birth in this case was, yeah, perfectly safe option and the parents were more unhappy and supported me all the way through. So am I right in thinking that in the US, surrogacy, you can earn money from surrogacy, which you can't in the UK. So what you're doing is genuinely just an incredibly generous thing.

Yeah, so there's commercial surrogacy and altruistic surrogacy. Commercial's illegal in the UK. You can't be paid to be a surrogate. Okay. But you can get compensated expenses. So the way the courts look at it actually is that they want to see a financial transaction because they don't want the surrogate to be out of pocket for carrying a child. So there has to be some financial exchange, but it also has to be reasonable.

Yeah. There's a big surrogacy reform that's coming. The cross-parall, all-parliamentary reform thing. I can't remember what it's called, very official words, has been written up. It's a massive document. And one of the things is to define what reasonable actually means, because obviously that's different for different people in different circumstances. And what can and can't be compensated for?

Can you, you know, pay for childcare? Is that something, because most surrogates have their own? family is that something that can be included because you've got to go to hospital appointments yeah that makes sense yeah yeah if you're getting a new mattress because your your back's killing you because you're pregnant yeah that kind of makes sense if you're buying a land rover just for the sake of it no that doesn't really make sense yeah yeah it is an incredibly altruistic thing to do though and I wonder how you've been able to fit it around your lifestyle because like you say you have to do hospital appointments and presumably have time off work and I don't just just maternity cover just

maternity pay how does that work for you fortunately the company I work for are brilliant it's surrogacy is it's just another pregnancy as long as I've got that mat B1 form it's exactly the same as any other pregnancy so I still get time off for antenatal appointments um when I had quite severe pelvic girdle pain I got a sick note from the doctor because I was like there's no way I can commute into london every day and then I get maternity leave afterwards as well so I get treated exactly the same as any other pregnancy wow and that's when I go and do the travelling bit Yeah, okay, that's great. Yeah, that makes sense.

Oh, of course, so then you take Matt leave, yeah. How long did you take the first time? I took a year. Okay, and this time? Over a year, because I've got some annual leave to use off as well, so, yeah, I'm going to be up for ages. It's a pretty big perk. Great. Yeah.

Yeah, that's amazing. That's one thing that the surrogacy reform might change, actually. In Canada, they split pregnancy leave and maternity leave, so they're two separate things because surrogacy is a lot more regulated in Canada. So because it's more regulated, I think it's 13 weeks maternity leave, pregnancy leave that they get in Canada, whereas here you get basically the exact same. So I get 26 weeks paid, which is pretty nice. How does work cope?

How do work feel about like, is there confusion or is it just like, oh, cool? Do you know what I mean? Not even work, just in general, in your life. I get massively mixed responses. I find people that have had struggles to get pregnant themselves. so my last boss I don't know the ins and outs but I think he went through IVF with his wife

so people that have struggled definitely get it a bit more and kind of appreciate that there's another option for people to have families as well then the complete opposite end of that I've had someone literally say to me like oh I don't understand how you could give your baby away

wow and you know you try and explain it but sometimes when someone's just made their mind up they don't they just don't get it Like, if I wanted to go and have a baby, there's a thousand easier ways I could go out and get pregnant. I wouldn't string someone along for more than a year to get pregnant with them to then keep their baby at the end of it. That doesn't make sense. This child has been created with intent and with love for another family.

I've never seen it as my baby. With the babies that you have carried, have they been made from your egg? Yeah, they have. So I'm a traditional surrogate, which is, again, less common. So, yeah, child-free traditional surrogate is a... I'm pretty sure I'm maybe not quite one of a kind, but one of very few. I don't know of any others, actually. Oh, see, I don't know why, but I presumed that it was the parent's embryo that was implanted.

But so it was insemination. Yeah, home insemination, yeah. I see it as like quite a lot more natural to just get pregnant using my own egg, just as I ovulate, using no hormones or anything. Okay. Gestational carriers are much more common. and that's probably why you presumed, like most people do. In America, traditional surrogacy is very, very unusual. Most agencies don't even do traditional surrogacy at all.

Really? No. But my mum was a traditional surrogate. So when she explained it to me when I was five, mummy has an egg that if she doesn't fertilise, it's going to be flushed away with her next period. So why not use it to make another family? And that's the way I tend to explain it to most adults now,

because I'm like, it's literally that exact thing. It's so straightforward. Yeah. And I don't feel any weirdness or... That makes it even more generous, though. You're giving so much, you're giving so much to strangers. It's such a beautiful thing. Yeah, I don't know.

Like, I see the perks of it as well. Like, I don't want children, and yet I still can provide that for other people. And then when I meet the children as well, it feels like meeting one of my nephews. Yeah, that's... I was going to ask you, what does that feel like to meet? Because obviously there is my DNA and my genetics, and I'm like, oh, wow, you've got my this, that or the other. Like, you've got my eye colour, you've got my hair colour, you've, sorry, mate, you've got my nose. Like, all these different things.

And, yeah, it literally does feel exactly the same as when I've met my sister's kids. Really? Yeah, exactly the same. Do you, are you allowed to stay in touch with them? How does it, or again, is every agreement different? Yeah, every arrangement's completely different. I personally prefer to stay in touch. I think it's better for the kid as well, for them to understand,

especially when it's traditional surrogacy, because then they can understand their genetics, and where they came from. Most surrogates, I would say, prefer to stay in touch with the families because you've done a pretty incredible thing. It's really nice to stay in touch. And you become such close friends as well. The trust, the bond.

You know, one of the dads literally watched me give birth. Like that's a pretty intense close bond there. Yeah, I wouldn't want to give that up. And I suppose the trust of the mum as well must be amazing to not. I'm assuming that you've, have you done it for? Yeah, straight couple of first time and a gay couple of the second time. I imagine the trust for the first time with the child's mother

to watch. I see I'm putting so many scenarios into this person's situation and I don't know. But I'm imagining that they couldn't get pregnant or she couldn't carry a baby. So that's a beautiful but very trusting and maybe quite painful thing to watch you be pregnant with her partner's baby. And how are you able to have a relationship with her? So we became extremely close during the pregnancy, and she did find it difficult.

She told me towards the end that she was jealous, which totally makes sense. I'm not going to go into the details of her story because that's absolutely her story. But yeah, there's obviously a lot of pain there. And that is actually one of the reasons I wanted to carry for a gay, couple this time because it's nothing but gratitude it's it's pure like happiness and joy and they've had a long time to come to terms with the fact that they can't physically bring

children into the world as a couple whereas for a straight couple there's often been a really painful journey to come to the point of surrogacy of course yeah that and and I suppose there isn't the there's not the projection there's just like yeah pure joy and that baby was born three weeks ago. Yeah, we're going to see him this evening. Are you? So we've had private midwives, which has been absolutely incredible. So she's coming around for an appointment for all five of us now.

That's really funny to say. I keep saying four and I'm like, oh no, there's an actual human job now. Have you got a partner? Yes. Oh my gosh. Yeah, so she was absolutely amazing as well. She was my birth partner and basically like a doula. For both pregnancies.

No, so we got together during my pregnancy the first time. Wow. I was like seven months pregnant when we met. No way. And I messaged her. I was like, oh, by the way, I'm pregnant. And she was like, okay, yeah, sure. Thought that's chill.

Yeah. And then explained surrogacy. And she literally was like, but why? Like for money or what? Yeah, she was super chill about it. That's lovely. Yeah. And when you told her that you were going to do it again,

was she just like, yeah, cool. Yeah. And she actually really enjoyed seeing it from the beginning this time as well. And like being part of the matching process. Yeah. There was one point I was chatting to 17 different gay men because I was trying to match quite quickly, which isn't recommended, and I wouldn't recommend it for other surrogates. I would say, you know, take a long time to create that bond and build a relationship. But things had gone wrong.

I'd had a previous match in between, and there were like sperm issues and stuff, and it just didn't work out. So then I was like, I really want a match before our wedding in September so that I'm not pregnant for. the wedding. So it only gave a four-month window of getting pregnant. So I chatted to so many people. And I was open and honest with everyone as well. And I said I'm chatting to a lot of people. And then when I actually met Chris and Tom,

it just clicked straight away. I was like, these are my people. Like, they're so lovely. And then we met again with Delara, my partner. And yeah, it just flowed. And yeah, we started home inseminations literally the next month. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Which I do not recommend.

Yeah. And it worked out for us. but that way can go wrong like if you're not all completely on the same page um yeah rushing into things is where relationships can break down but it felt so right so yeah god that's amazing how great that your partner's just so oh she's brilliant yeah she's absolutely fantastic yeah did it has it made her want to do it too or like has she gone the other way with like I couldn't completely the other way really she was already pretty like she never wants kids herself as well that as you know one of the reasons that we work so well because we don't want to

family so okay um but yeah she's like i'm never getting pregnant good god she just doesn't like the idea of pregnancy like rather than yeah pregnancy birth children all of it she's not interested how did you how did you find your how does the families find you what is the matching process like do you go to an agency is it i don't know do you like post it in online like in the papers It's like, how does it work? Put an ad in the papers, I love that. Because I get a page is. All right.

Read all about it. Don't ashamed me. So you can't actually advertise in the UK. That's another one of the things. Got it. Yeah, I go through an agency called COTS, which stands for childlessness, overcome through surrogacy, which is run by the UK's first surrogate, Kim Cotton. So she carried a baby back in the 80s.

She was the first surrogate, did you say? Yeah. In the 80s? I thought it would be well before that And there were no laws about surrogacy So there was like a knee-jerk reaction And they wrote some laws And that's what's still in place today

And that's why there's this big surrogacy reform happening So yeah she still runs the agency She's absolutely brilliant She's really got an eye for matching people as well She just knows who's gonna get on with who Yeah she's really really good at what she does And so I posted on her Facebook page Just saying

This is me, this is what I'm looking for and the rush to match as well and saying like if I feel a connection with someone then great and if not then it's just not going to happen before the wedding and I had so many comments on there and it was a lot. Delara literally became my PA she was keeping notes of everything at the distance there was one really lovely couple in the Shetland Islands

and she was like no feasibly that is ridiculous it takes 22 hours to get there don't be stupid and I was like oh okay and then I went back on and the day before I had posted, Chris and Tom had posted an introduction. I was like, oh, they sound lovely and their pictures were lovely and they were all with like their nephews and stuff and the nieces and said one niece. I think there's one niece. And I was like, oh, they sound really nice. I'll start chatting to them. Started chatting on Facebook Messenger. One of the dads

then created a WhatsApp group straight away and I was like, oh nice, yeah, proactive. Let's get all of us chatting because this is a team effort. This is a group thing here. And yeah, it literally just went from there. But yeah, so to answer the actual question, there's, independent surrogacy as well and agency. So there are a lot of independent Facebook groups where people basically do the same thing. They post their introductions and then they get chatting themselves.

But there's no one kind of overseeing that. Whereas I quite like having an agency to do the DBS check, make sure you've done a proper agreement, make sure you've gone to the GP and they're happy for you to get pregnant as well. It's not going to negatively impact your health. Yeah, so I like having the agency there.

I have loads of questions about the laws and your opinions about it. it because I do think what you're doing is unbelievably generous and I wonder that perhaps more women would do it if there was a financial benefit if it could be treated as a profession but then I can see on the flip side that it could be incredibly exploitative and that there must be so many dangers associated with that so I don't know enough and I wonder what your thoughts are on the particularly the financial element and the difference between how we do it in the UK versus the US, do you think that there should, that there could, that there is a safe and an

opportune way for, for you, for people doing what you do to benefit financially from what you're doing? It's something I massively sit on the fence about. Delara's quite hard on the, no, it should be altruistic, you shouldn't be paid for it because it's a really slippery slope. It can be extremely exploitative. I flip massively. I go hard on the feminist side as well and I'm like, this is because it's a woman's body and women aren't allowed to be paid for what they do. You know, sex work is so demonised. And yeah, if you wanted to carry a pregnancy for someone else for money as well, that would be demonised as well. And then the other side is, well, it shouldn't be only wealthy

intended parents that can afford surrogacy. It should be open to everyone. And it's still not cheap the way it is at the moment in the UK. You've still got a factor in expenses and most people creating embryos isn't a cheap process. So to then add on 50,000 pounds worth of compensation to that is a ridiculous number. That's a house deposit, you know? So, yeah, I've massively sit on the fence. It's really difficult. I've briefly considered whether I would move to America at some point

and do a journey compensated to be able to compare a reflect and see if it feels any different, if it feels transactional, and to then make some money. Like, let's be real. We live in a capitalistic society. And you are giving up a lot. Yeah. It's a year of my life. It's a year of your life.

And if you know you only want to do it four times or feasibly you only can do it so many times with that as well it's like well this may be your only opportunity to monetise it which is yeah and you would be because I hadn't even considered the feminist thing

because if men did it for other men like but you're asked their child they fucking charge for everything. Absolutely. Yeah it's crazy isn't it? Yeah that's so I hadn't even considered that but then I wonder if it's not even more complicated then I suppose that you have the added thing so I'm really just thinking out loud on it

and trying to work out my own feelings on it but I wonder that you have the added thing of you'd be selling your egg as well I wonder if you were yeah there's already I get the occasional comment of like yeah you're selling a baby that sort of thing

and human trafficking comes up a lot and it's like do you actually understand what human trafficking is because it's not surrogacy that doesn't make sense at all if anything it would be the surrogate being trafficked and I'm definitely not yeah yeah because I always

I imagine exploitation within this industry, it's of surrogates being, being... And it can be the intended parents as well, to be fair. It's, yeah. I mean, on the whole, like, it's a massively positive community. There's obviously always horror stories, and they're the ones that make the papers. Like, 999 times out of 1,000, it all turns out absolutely beautifully. It'll be that one that gets in the papers. Do you, because obviously you do share it online, and sharing anything online is terrifying

because everybody's horrible. How are, how's the reaction on the internet to what you do? On the whole, pretty good. I've managed to build quite a positive little community around me. Most people are just absolutely cheerleading what I do. And I've got a lot of mum friends on there who just think it's amazing and I get the most lovely DMs. But yeah, I do get the occasional nutty comment.

Yeah. Yeah, depending on the nature of it, I tend to just leave it there. And, yeah, my partner's pretty good at thinking up quite funny replies, which yeah is if water off a duck's back it doesn't I can't even remember them so really it really doesn't bother me

they're so few and far between as well the positivity outweighs it massively yeah because I see I mean are you experienced it a little bit but like there is people get very heated about IVF about egg freezing embryo transfer surrogacy

anything that's not quit unquote God's plan people are kind of stressed about which I find really sad Oh someone called me a degenerate which I found really funny. I was like, oh, thanks.

You flirt. Stop. It's always the ones with the Bible passage in the bio. Yeah, and like anything to do with fertility as well, people do get really, understandably, it's a very emotive topic. And like you said, it can be like a very painful thing. But, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if you'd had negativity around that.

But that's good thing. It's good that the reaction. has on the whole been super positive. Yeah. And so do you think you'll share your next journey? I'd like to. Yeah. Yeah.

I didn't this time. I think I was more invested in the home birth kind of culture and like physiological birth and I was so desperate to have a V-back. V-Bernerf after Caesarean, if anyone doesn't know what V-back is. And then I looked into home birth because the rates of V-back at home are so much higher. So that was kind of where, yeah, I just became a massive birth nerd this time. I was like, I'm desperate to have a vaginal birth, so yeah. Because if you, can you only have three C-sections, is that right?

I could have four. Yeah, my midwife had had four. But there's risks, you get excited risks because you can get the egg attached to the scar. My friend had, I think, her third C-section. It was like not, like, I think it was, yeah. It's rough, isn't it? Mums were fine. Mum had three and they were absolutely fine.

And then, because my husband wants four kids, and I'm like, I have to have caesareans because of my pelvis. So I'm like, well, sorry. And I said to him, I was in labour last time. I was like, I can only have three. And then my midwife was like, don't worry, I had four. I'm like, you're not helping. Love it. Yeah.

Yeah. My mom had three as well, and she was kind of like, well, what are they going to do? Just leave the baby there. Yeah, obviously, do you a poor cesarian. That's so true. So watching your mom have these babies as you grew up, did you have a relationship with the children that she helped? create so the first two families not really she did one journey each for the first two families

then the second two families she did two journeys eat wow oh my god that's lovely so they got brother and sister or brother and brother you know siblings yeah one brother a sister one brother wow um so the older child of those families i then got to know a little bit because she was pregnant for them again yeah so that was really special wow and do you ever feel like they were your siblings. I know, that's not. Not as a lot. So, yeah, genetically they are my half siblings.

I've never had any contact with them as an adult. I've considered it because I thought that would maybe be something really interesting for my YouTube channel to meet up with the, I was going to say kids. They're not even kids anymore, most of them are adults. But to meet up with them and just chat about their lives and their childhood. But in a way as well, I feel most of them aren't interested because they've had such a loving, well-rounded family relationship with their parents. They're not really bothered where they come from genetic.

then answer, which I suppose is maybe more common with adoption. Probably, yeah. Yeah, where there's that question mark. Yeah. God, you just do such an amazing thing. Sorry. I just hated being pregnant. I can't imagine doing it for...

The only thing that made being pregnant okay for me was the baby at the end. So I just think you're amazing. I love pregnancy. Do you? Loved it. God, that's a gamble. What have you hated it? What do you like about?

I just find it fascinating. It's so interesting watching your body change. It is. Feeling the kicks. You know, just everything changes as well. Like, at the moment my nose is like shrinking back to normal. I don't even notice that my nose had swollen. Like, that's so strange.

Yeah, that's so funny. Yeah, I love watching those changes. I think it's amazing. Speaking of those changes, like, obviously the body changes so much during pregnancy. And then afterwards, you're, after a pregnancy, you're left with like a new body that you then have to get, like, used to. And it's weird and alien.

and then looks different and then, you know, there's stuff that I guess you maybe have to come to terms with, like stretch marks and loose skin, like... C-section scar. A C-section scar, you know, you're likely bigger than you were before. And I guess a lot of the rhetoric around accepting postpartum bodies is, well, like, look what you have from it.

Like, look what you made and look what... I guess that could be implied in your case, but it's like you just look at your baby and everything, everything is worth it. And I guess that's, that is super different for you because it's like you don't, you don't have that, the baby to. Brief. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So how does that make the journey then of like accepting your postpartum body? So when I was travelling last time, I did, I had a dancer say to me, but you've ruined your body. I was like, it's not ruined. Like it's different, but it's not ruined. And the way I kind of see it is that I've got a woman's body now, not a girl's body. Like, I don't, I never expected to have an 18 year old's figure for my entire life. I knew my body would change at some point.

And, yeah, maybe pregnancy has expedited that process a little bit, but it doesn't bother me at all. I've got quite a lot of stretch marks this time, but I know they'll fade over time. And obviously my belly's still swollen because I'm only three weeks postpartum. Well, yeah. This time, you know, I've given birth vaginally. So things will have changed down there as well. It's just something that I totally accept. it doesn't phase me at all

and I've definitely got my mum to thank for that she's always been so open about her body she's often been overweight and yo-yo dieting and she instilled like a really healthy eating mindset for me that I've not demonised food and I've had such a good relationship with my body that pregnancy hasn't changed that at all I've just always been fascinated by it

and postpartum as well I'm like I don't actually mind the loose skin and the saggy boobs actually I might get them done one day Fair enough Yeah, they're like Spanielers Could that be a reasonable expense? I was going to take you back to the families and be like, look, if you all chip it

Yeah, for my Christmas present could be off the books I think that's the least they could do honestly We're jumping around And I'm really sorry, we're totally jumping around here But do you plan on like Keeping contact with

What do you call them? Intenna parents? Well, yeah, that's true Babies, what do you call them? So yeah, surrogate babies, surrogate children but then when they're adults, then you can't really be calling them children anymore. Yeah.

So you're surrogate children. Do you plan on maintaining contact with them, like, forever? Or is it more of like an initial thing while they're, like, baby? What's the plan? So forever was always the plan. Okay. I just think it's really nice just to be there if they're interested, if they've got questions,

to be kind of an extended family member, to be an auntie type figure. The first journey hasn't quite worked out that way. We disagreed about the publicity. You know, I love talking about surrogacy. I love normalising it. I love sharing everything. They're much more private people.

So we've kind of gone our separate ways. We're still in contact, but it's very minimal. And I don't know what that's going to look like in the future. And I'm open to that as well. Relationships change. Does that hurt? Yeah. And I've had to deal with that.

It has been really difficult. But this journey has kind of made up for that as well because it has been nothing but love and positivity and happiness. And this beautiful home birth, the baby was born at their house. which I just think is so amazing because I felt comfortable enough in their home because we've had sleepovers the entire pregnancy which has been great and we will maintain a relationship and when Kim Cotton phoned them after the birth to say you know you are going to stay in touch aren't you and they were like yeah of course

we know where she lives so yeah it's completely different this time we're definitely staying in touch with the first family did it did it did it hurt did it hurt because of did it hurt because you wouldn't keep in touch with the child or the parents, or was it both? It's both, and it's kind of more the breach of trust. This is what we said we were going to do, and that's not what's happened. They knew I wanted to do publicity from the beginning. There's a box on the agreement that you tick to say yes or no. But yeah, as I say, things do change.

And unfortunately, this is one of the big negatives of surrogacy that doesn't really get spoken about enough. It does quite often happen. parents have strived to have a child for so long they would do anything and say anything to make it work and then when they have their child their lives are completely turned upside down and they don't necessarily want to maintain that close relationship with the surrogate anymore and it is a shame but yeah it does happen quite often I guess then this will differ from the UK to the US and Canada

and where the laws are all totally different but what are the surrogates rights in terms of maintaining contact with the surrogate child children are there any rights and am I right in thinking I might be completely making this up but am I right in thinking that you you have a right initially to the baby yeah yeah yeah so in the UK I'll just speak about the UK because it makes it a lot more simple yeah sorry um I go on the initial birth certificate as mother okay um so yeah that's one of the parts of the surrogacy reform where there'll be like a preconception agreement

and then the parents can go on the birth certificate from the beginning. But that also creates a bit of controversy as well because then what if the surrogate does want to keep the baby should it be her right to? Yeah. Right now do you have the right to? Now probably less so because the child's been in the care

of the parents for the three weeks of his entire life. So the courts would look at it as like not unsettling that relationship whereas from the moment of birth if I was like actually I want to keep him, the courts would absolutely go in my favour. Wow.

Yeah. It's really tough. That's so hard. That must be so hard for the families. Intended parents. The intended parents to go the whole nine months with that tiny, you know, tiny little seed of doubt. Yeah. But it honestly doesn't happen.

No. Surrogates are not in the game of keeping children. That's not why we're getting pregnant, you know. But yeah, that is the way the law stands at the moment. I don't like it because. that means I have parental responsibility as well. So if anything were to happen, then I would be questioned as to why the child wasn't in my care.

Right. My wife is also on the birth certificate. Is she? That's interesting. Why? Because we're married. They wouldn't let us put one of the fathers on the birth certificate. That's Georglie must change.

So she's listed as a mother as well? Parent. Yeah, second parent. So if something, God forbid, had happened to the baby before the birth certificate was changed, you're the parents and this is a horrible hypothetical that I'm running with but if the intended parents

had not been adequate parents that you would be called into question for not providing adequate care so there's trust on my end as well that they're going to do their bit and the parental order can take up to six months to go through so as of right now you and your partner are on the birth certificate of this baby

god that's a big ask of your partner too Massive. Yeah. And the registrar said to her, I need you to be happy with this before you sign it. And she was like, well,

I'm obviously not happy with it. That's why we've raised the question of putting one of the dads on the birth certificate. But there's no other option other than me going on it solely, which we didn't want to because then it makes it look like

she didn't consent to the surrogacy. Yeah. Where she obviously did. She's been massively supportive. Yeah. Yeah. That's mad. And not very fair on the intended parents either.

Because I suppose that doesn't help with the initial, this is my baby. Yeah. Because the call, whatever isn't recognising that. God, that's horrible. When we left the registry office, they both were like,

oh wow, that actually hit us a lot harder than my expense. I've, because I've been to one of my mom's surrogate babies' registrations, so I knew the process as well. And again, the way she explained it to me as a child was, oh, it's just a bit of paperwork. It's just the first one. We can tear that up when the new one comes through it. Although I do think you actually have to keep a copy. So, yeah.

So I've just always looked at it like that. But actually, yeah, they've been, they had sleepless nights. they were feeding this child every two hours, changing nappies constantly, and then not to be recognised as their parent is... Yeah, horrible. Yeah, I mean, there's so much wrong with that because, again, God forbid the baby was poorly, they go to the hospital with it, they're not the parents.

Yeah, so they've got the red book and everything, so they've got sort of the proof. Yeah. But do they have consent to, like... Yeah, the jazz and stuff. Yeah, so sometimes I get phone calls. I had to... I had the phone call about the hearing test,

so I then had to give them one of the dad's numbers to say, oh yeah, the baby's not. That is so crazy. I never thought about that. Last time it went completely tits up and my address ended up getting changed to the baby's address because they assumed that I lived with the baby and I was like, what do you not get about like surrogacy

that's written all over the front of my nose? Yeah. Is it, it's not common surrogacy. Not massively, no. Through Cots, there's been 1,133 babies born. That is not many, wow. Yeah, I have someone in my life who was born via surrogate And that's, yeah, one.

I know many of the people and it's only one person, so I suppose. The community is quite small as well. So when you sort of start getting to know everyone, it's everyone knows everyone. Yeah. I mean, I just can't go over how generous you are. I really can't. Let me ask quickly about breastfeeding, because I think I saw a picture on your Instagram of the baby on your breast.

Was that the first time, first journey or second? That was this time. This time, okay. Did you Is that just for like the initial Yeah so I was planning to do the first feed To just latch him just to get the colostrum Okay

But he had like quite a lot of mucus on his lungs Because he was born with a little bit of maconium Right So like pooed in the waters And so they wanted to do the first feed Like quite quickly to make him cry But I was still having my tech And yeah I wasn't great

Immediately after birth Like you mentioned your pelvis Oh my god my pelvis was like shattered afterwards. I literally couldn't move I'd been pushing for a very long time as well I had a two and a half hour pushing stage which actually goes outside their guidelines they normally suggest a hospital transfer

at that point but his head was literally in my vagina so it's like well you're obviously not going anywhere at this stage and I'd been in a position where I had Delara on one side and Tom on the other one of the dads and I was pushing against them imagine like a leg press that doesn't move

like that we've checked the time of the photos, it looks like about half an hour I was in that position and every contraction pushing against them with all my might and pulling against my legs as well, because his head was like three centimetres above average circumference as well. So I think I literally had to move my bones to get him out. It was insane. Yeah, I've never felt anything like it. So, yeah, that was kind of a delay. You were like smiling. Oh, it was incredible. You were unmedicated, right? Because it was a home birth. I had gas in it. Yeah. Not enough. Not enough.

You're unreal. Yeah. This is, oh my God. Like, it's definitely all about mindset. Like, I felt so powerful this time. And in hospital last time and the cascade and then it ended in cesarean, I felt so out of control. And this time I was like, no, this is my body. I'm doing this. I'm birthing. I had one little wobble where I was like, oh, I don't think I could do it.

But yeah, going back to the point about breastfeeding, sorry, I've totally gone off on a tangent. No, we love it. We're coming with you wherever you go. So last time, because I was really actively not creating, that bond because I think the bonding process is very intentional between a parent and a child. I didn't even consider anything like that. I was like, I'm going to pump breast milk. I'm going to give him the colostrum. He's going to have like, I'll pump for about six weeks, give him the best stuff. And then, you know, I'll dry it up and carry on whatever I want to do. I was very single minded and

that was what I was doing. But it was horrendous. I hated pumping. I think I've got elastic nipples. So like they start tiny and then they end up massive by the end of a pumping session. And it was just extremely unpleasant. I got mastitis twice. I know you've had mastitis recently as well. Horridous. Yeah. And trying to get antibiotics was a fight with my GP as well.

I was like, this is going to end up set into a septicist like, please give me some antibiotics. It was really horrendous. So this time I was like, before I got pregnant, I was like, I'm absolutely not pumping. It's never not doing it ever again. I've had that experience. It was awful. Then I got pregnant and the hormones were like, no, you're going to pump. You're going to make milk.

Of course you are. It's the best thing for the baby. So then towards the end of the pregnancy, I was pumping some colostrum to try and induce labour and stuff as well. And I remembered how much I hate pumping. And I was like, ah, shit. So there's this little pill called cabagalline, which is the prolactin inhibitor. And I spoke to the dads about it and they were like, honestly, you know, you've done more

than enough. We don't expect your breast milk as well. Take the pill if you want to. So I said, all right, I'll think about it. I'll sleep on it. I'll take it in the morning. And one of them was like, why take it in the morning? Like, just take it tonight.

If you're on the fence, you obviously don't want to do it. I was like, oh, that's a really good point. So while I was having my nice two-hour bath after giving birth, I was like, yeah, I'm going to take the pill. And it is the best thing I've ever done. I'm so happy I don't have breast milk, especially when I was in so much pain, like day three was probably the worst. And that's when the milk would have then come in as well.

And I was like, I'm so glad I don't have that engorgement. I've still got colostrum and they're still bigger, but they're not like rock hard. Right. Yeah. But yeah, I've got to try really hard not to stimulate and stuff. So when I saw the baby next door, I was like, no, go near the baby. Hope it doesn't cry because my boobs will respond. Oh my God. Kim, this is such, this is like being an absolutely fascinating conversation, hasn't it? I'm sad. I know. I know I keep saying it. I just can't get over the altruistic kindness. It is so cool what you do. It's unbelievable. I love it. My pregnancy is amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. And birth is amazing. Creating a family as well. Like, there is no better, like, watching that moment when the baby was passed to him,

past to one of the dads. And I made eye contact with the other dad. And I was like, oh my God, I've just made it a whole human. I've just made a whole family. Oh, God, that's so lovely. If you, if they wanted another baby, would you do that with them? We've not had the conversation yet, but. Yeah.

Definitely. Of course. God, that is, you have made a family. And you give people thing. I mean, you just give. people the most amazing thing in the whole world because like you say it's not common and yeah and the fact that you can't pay I imagine that there's there's there gets to a point of desperation where you think I would pay anything and I'd do anything and the fact that you then don't expect money for it

it's like a kindness beyond it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it doesn't it feels so like where's the catch that you're just doing something so wonderful I just can't go over it. Yeah, it's amazing. I just think you're epic. This is an amazing. Yeah, well done. Well done. I'm three weeks ago. I feel like well done does not cut out. No, it's not even close. Try on. Well done, babe. Yeah, thumbs up.

You got the Alex's like, well done of approval. That starts, would do again. Oh my God, you're amazing. Thanks so much. Will you come back after you do it the next time? Absolutely. Please. I got back pregnant. Oh, my God. Bring the parents with me. God, you're amazing. Thank you so much. Oh yeah, no, do. Bring the dance with you.

One of the dads has been on the radio with us It is amazing that you're raising awareness for it as well And that's like, yeah, that's really cool Yeah, it just normalises it And it normalises it for the kids as well Because then, you know, if everyone understands a little bit more That not all families are made the same way Yeah

Thank you so much, Kim It's been great Thank you Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network