Should I Delete That? - Life as a Woman in the British Army

Episode Date: September 22, 2024

TW: sexual assault, rape, suicideThis week on the podcast, Em and Alex are joined by Gemma Morgan. When Gemma joined the Army, she discovered very quickly how she had to behave as a woman to get by: prove your strength by pushing yourself harder than you ever thought possible, but ensure you act small enough so you don't step on the toes of your male counterparts. This balancing act proved near impossible under the weight of oppressive misogyny deeply entrenched within the structure of the British Armed Forces, where razors were supplied for men to shape their facial hair while sanitary products for her and others that needed them weren't even a consideration. Gemma's Army career didn't go to plan, with trauma, abuse and PTSD all featuring in her story. She explains how she went from outstanding soldier to suffering a near-fatal mental health crisis, and why she is now demanding change. Gemma found help and hope, and wants to show others that they can too.If you have been affected by any topics in this episode, or you want to talk to someone, you can call the Samaritans free, anytime, at 116 123If you are a member of the Armed Forces community and you need help, you can call Help For Heroes weekdays 9-5 on 0300 303 9888 you can also submit a form anytime at https://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/application/You can buy Gemma's book, Pink Camouflage, here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pink-Camouflage-soldiers-resilience-leadership/dp/1804251232Follow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We talk about sexual assault and rape in this episode about post-traumatic stress disorder and about suicide. We do appreciate that it's very, very heavy listening. And if you're not in the space to hear it right now, we completely understand. And we just want to give you a heads up to say if you want to skip this one out, we totally understand. And we'll see you back here on Thursday. I feel incredibly proud and privileged to have served with some really incredible women and men. And with that comes this real loyalty. But on the other hand, I'm like, no, this isn't right.

And you have a duty to change this for the women that are coming after me. Hello, and welcome back to To Delete That. I'm Alex Light. And I'm in Clarkson. And if you can't tell by Alex's slower pace this morning, she's on a holobobs. I am on holiday. You're having the best time? I'm having such a good time.

Oh, good. So, so, so nice. Honestly, it's like, it just feels like an actual break. It's lovely. And like, it's, it's just great. The place that we're at is so nice. They've got, like, baby purees for the babies, and it's just, like, no cooking. It's wonderful.

It's really wonderful. Oh, good. Yeah. I'm very happy for you. I take it out. Is your good for the week? It is. It is absolute chaos here, though.

There are 16 of us. So there's my five sisters, five of us, five partners, mom and dad, four babies. Can you imagine? No. And you're not like a, um, you're not like a wallflower family. No, no, no, no. Oh, you know we've arrived. My God. And the worst, actually the worst you won't have me saying is Lolly, who's age, literally like a week apart, I think. She's in that phase where she's like talking, but not enough to like full sentences to like convey what's happening quick enough in her head so it's not coming out fast enough and she's getting angry like frustrated and tantruming a lot oh is she bless her she's got this stupid little fake cry that is killing all of us oh so good well I'm pleased

you're having a nice time whenever I picture you all I imagine you're like the macalisters like home alone Christmas time literally piling into your cabs forgetting someone, probably Dave. You've also just told me the most alarming piece of information, which is that Dave is raw-doging the entire holiday. He hasn't taken headfish. You guys were away for like two weeks, and he's not taken a pair of headphones.

That's how old Dave is. He just got on the plane and I'm telling you. I didn't bring headphones. And then I was like, oh my God. I was like, quick, go back to duty free and buy some. And he was like, oh no, the airplane has headphones. It's fine. I'm like, oh my God, you're just going to survive on.

on two lots of aeroplane headphones for the entire two weeks, apparently. That's what it's like to have a peaceful mind. Can't relate. To have nothing but your own, like, calming thoughts. I can't relate. It's actually funny because I think about it, we've only been here for three days. And because I listen to podcasts throughout the night, oh, okay, sorry, I'm spitting here. But because I listen to podcasts throughout the night, I have listened to about 17 podcasts

since we've been here. Actually, though, I've been listening to Marianke's. You lucky woman. I know. I'm listening to Rachel's holiday. And it's on bookbeat, which we both love. And on book beat, because I think on Audible, it's not narrated by her. But on book beat, it's narrated by her. It's so nice. I'm so jealous that you get to do that for the first time. The problem is that I go in and out of sleep, obviously, as Tommy does. And so I'm getting stressed with like, I've, I've let it play for so long. I've been asleep. So like, how do I get back to where it's, that's my problem with audio books. But anyway, we don't. need to know to go into that. That yeah, it's not not a nighttime antic for me. So your good is that you're in holiday days. Yes. What's yours? You look great today. You've got like a full beat as the as the Gen Z would say. That's my good then. I'm having a full beat. I'm fine. Yeah, I didn't have a specific good. No. Because I'm just a bit, you know, well, um, so I'll take that. I've got a full beat. Where's the HG at? Um, I'm not great. I'm,

fine. I'm not great. I had a really rough weekend again, which makes me a little bit nervous that it was getting worse. But I'm fine. You know, I'm, I'm sliving. I've been getting outside more, which has been really nice. Like I didn't, I got, you know, like gone through a whole periods of like weeks of end, on end, like you're going outside. Um, so I've been outside a few times. You love going outside. So I'm, I love going outside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't been doing it. So that's been nice. I just like, yes. sat at the park for like half an hour. It was nice.

I'll take that as a good. Is it sunny there? Yeah, it's gorgeous. You'd hate it. Oh, gross. I mean, you've literally gone away to a tropical island. I know. But I have aircon.

It's magical. It's magical. It's so nice. Coming back into that, I just keep popping back to the room. I'm like, oh, Tommy needs another change. I'm just going to go be cold by myself, divine. Speaking of Tommy needing a change is my bad.

is he we've got one of my sisters husbands is just he is the absolute best and he's like whenever Dave and I just need to like get our dinner or like we just need a hand or something he's like I'll take the baby I can take the baby he's so good honestly he's absolutely great and Tommy has bitten the hand that feeds him because at lunchtime today we were feeding the baby and Michael was like, I'll take him, I'll take him while you get your food because it's about to close. The buffet's about to close. So we went to get a buffet, came back, and Michael and the baby are covered in diarrhea. He diaried all over Michael. Who's? And it's like, it's like the, just like the last person he should have done that to. And I feel like now, that's it. We have, we have no more.

Yeah, he's ruined it. He's ruined it. No more chances with Michael. That's here. It was horrendous. It's the worst poo he's ever done in his entire eight months of life the worst and all over michael so that's my that's my bad yeah there sounds like it sounds worse for michael actually sounds like you've dodged a pretty big bullet if i'm honest it was to be part of me was like thank god then the other part me was like no thank god no i'll give you a five a later tommy thanks what's your bad i don't think i'm going to allow myself one because i've just been kind of living in my like little um I'd, you know, because nothing's great. I feel like I'm not bringing a bad.

I don't want to bring that sort of energy. I'm fine. I'm surviving. I do, however, have an awkward, not my own. I have an awkward, an inherited awkward. And God, I really have done very little this week, I feel, because I have literally nothing to offer you except this, which is stunning. Okay, I'm excited.

So Alex's mom came to stay recently. She came to stay at the weekend, and it was her birthday. and Alex took her to the opera for her birthday and my good is that he didn't invite me actually that's definitely the good as I would. Oh my God, yes. Not for so many reasons. First of all, boring.

Second of all, boring. Third of all, long. Fourth of all, sick. It wouldn't have worked for me. So, yeah, I didn't get invited, which is good. And they went and they went, they were on like, I think that I don't, I've never been talking. an opera house, but I can envisage them

because I know they're very tiered and they're very tall. And they were on the third level of seats, of the third tier. And they went like down the stairs to they were basically at the front of the third tier.

So they walked Alex and his mom down the stairs and she's got really bad vertigo. Like she is terrified of heights. Like not a little bit, not a little bit like terrified of heights. She sees the drop, she panics. Oh, no.

So they get to their row, and she's, like, clinging on to Alex because she's really scared. And, you know, when you have to climb, like, you have to go past people who are already seated in their seats. Etiquot dictates you face away from them as you do this. Yes. 100%. You must. In doing so, she would have been looking over the edge, thus making the vertigo worse. Oh, no.

So, face forward, she began the shuffle down the aisle, except she was so nervous that she had to cling to the armrest of each seat, including the seats of the ones that had people sitting in them. Oh, bless her. So she literally had to, like, lean over, like, effectively hugging the patron in the seat in front of her and then work her way leaning forward over them

down the aisle down the row until she got to her seat then when she did sit down she was too nervous to pull the chair down you have to pull it down so Alex had to do it and as she sat down she went with her hands and she hit the man in front of her in the back of the head

with her bag Is that like so okay? And apparently he just grabbed the back of his head and he just like ducked down for like a minute. Oh no. Just holding the back of his head. Oh no. Oh no. It really hurt.

Yeah. Not a great entrance. So I didn't even go, but that story has brought me a lot of awkward joy. Thank God you didn't go. It would have been horrible. I wouldn't have been able to concentrate on the film, the film. The film. The film.

The film. The film. The show. performance. Oh, no, you definitely dodged a bullet. I understand. Like, I really, I applaud the skill of an opera-aptic singer. And Alex, my Alex, obviously, because he's got, like, a very broad and random past, used

to sing in an opera. That is so random. But also, yeah, it's so weird, but just not really that surprised. I'm like, okay, yeah, I can see how that might have happened. Anyway, so he loves it, and they really appreciate, like, the art. I just don't. And it's like, it's so unfair because it's not that I can't recognize their talent.

Objectively, I see it. I just can't feel it. You know what I mean? Oh my God. I think I was close to crying with just sheer, not even boredom, just like restlessness. It's so long and it's like, you just can't move. You just sat there, you can't move.

Oh, no, no, no, I don't get it. I think you either get it or you don't. I really do. That's it. I think it's, I think that's it. It's it. Yeah. There's no, I don't think there's any learning to love it.

I think it's within you to love it or not, and it's not within us. I feel like there's a lot of things I need to learn before. I need to learn to love the opera. Like, I need to learn French. 100%. I need to learn to, like, control my emotions better. I need to learn to put the lock on the, like, lock the car. Like, I've got stuff to do before I learn.

Like, not leave the keys in the front door. That, exactly that. I'm prone to that. Every day is a school day. That is awkward. That's horrible. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for Alex. Any awkward of your own before we get into the interview?

Awkward, yes. On the plane, I met this very lovely couple on the plane sitting next to us and they were like really, really nice, but they were like talking to me and I was a bit harassed because I was like, Tommy's crying. Don't really know what he wants. Well, he's exhausted actually and he was like on the cusp of going nuclear. So I was half having a conversation with them, half like sort of stressing but really trying to engage with them because they were so nice and then and he asked me oh so I was like yeah so you know we're all here with like all my sisters and their partners and the four babies and he said well I thought he said how so how old are you all it was on an airplane it was loud and I couldn't hear I thought he said how old are you all so

I was like in my head I was like that's a really long question and it's a long question and it's a weird question like why does he want to know how old we all are but fair I was like fine so I was like oh my dad's turning 70 soon um my mom 63 I was like I'm and then he stopped me and he was like sorry sorry I meant the kids I meant the babies I'm the kids I was like of course you did of course you did my dad's nearly 70 how was your how was your dad I was about to go through everyone's ages because I was like I don't know there's no way of like wrapping this up like I can't be like oh we're all in our 30 like I can't do that because my dad's, it doesn't work.

And then he like brought it up later in the flight. He was like, that was really funny when I asked you that. And you said your dad's, and I was like, uh-huh. I don't want to talk about it. We aren't friends. So that was awkward. So yeah. Well, I love that.

I know. That concludes our GBA. Do we say GBA on air, on air? Or do we just use it between ourselves. Like, let's do GBA, GBA. Do we say GBA? I said it to someone earlier. I said, I've got the GBA.

they looked at me like I was speaking Arabic. I was like I I this is not common parlance is it. This is a me and Al thing because it means good bad and awkward obviously that's what it's done for yes and it's a little bit close to GBA which isn't isn't great grievous bodily harm also close to CBA bad yeah which is how we feel most of the time but we need to get into this week's interview and before we do we want to put or we need to put a very big trigger warning for the entirety of this interview. We talk about sexual assault and rape in this episode about post-traumatic stress disorder and about suicide as well. It's an incredible conversation that we had with Gemma Morgan about her time in the British

Army as a woman and her life subsequently. And we're really proud and honoured that we were able to bring you this interview. But we do appreciate that it's very, very heavy listening and if you're not in the space to hear it right now we completely understand and we just want to give you a heads up at the top of the interview to say if you want to skip this one out we totally understand and we'll see you back here on Thursday 100% it's a heavy it's a heavy listen but it's so touching and so moving and without further ado here's jemma morgan hello jemma thank you so much for coming in I well I've been really excited to do this I have this conversation with you for a really long time. You're a friend of my mum's and you've recently written a book called Pink Camouflage about your experience in the British Army and afterwards. And we didn't realize when we organised this, but we also happened to be recording this on World Suicide Prevention Day. And we thought that it would be a nice opportunity for you to share your story with us.

Thanks, Em. Yeah, I met, well, the first thing is, met your mum, doing the big battlefield bike ride for helpful heroes, and I'd never been on a bike before. She kept whistling past me, which was most infuriating. She does that, so annoying. But it was wonderful, wonderful. Great, great fun to do.

I think, yeah, so I released my book called Pink Handflage in March this year. And really, if I'm honest, my, I'd never intended for my writing to be shared. It was, my writing was, it was for me and I, it was part of my therapy, part of my recovery, really. And then I'd read some reports in the media. There was the Defence Select Committee, Atherton Inquiry, which thousands of women both serving and veterans had given testimony of their struggles serving in the British Army as a woman, some of the misogyny, some of the abuse, some of the trauma. and the impact that it was having on them still now and also afterwards. And there was some also some media stories.

There was desperately tragic. Obviously at Olivia Perks who took her life whilst she was at Sandhurst training. There was Gunner Jaisley Bex who took her life. And I just felt really compelled actually. I thought, gosh, you know, I've hit 50, if I can share my lived experience, if I can put that out there to help work with others to change this narrative so that people that need

to hear it know that they're not alone. You know, let's shift this dial. Let's, let's share it in all its unpalatable messiness to help all of us really start. start to understand and hopefully listen, you know, so that people can get help. And that's why I chose to publish my story in March. And yeah, it's been a bumpy ride since, is probably what I'd say. It must have been terrifying because you speak really honestly about your time in the British Army. And like you say, the misogyny and the abuse, it didn't pass you buy it was a very big part of your story and your time in the military but i imagine saying that all out loud has been and is terrifying yeah i mean i think gosh when the book was released beginning

of march and the times newspaper got hold of the story just prior to it and the trolling that started i'd never experienced anything like that before i mean ironically many of the people trolling were at pains to tell me how many years they'd served in the British Army. So they were kind of telling the story for myself. But it was really hard to take, really, really hard. There was victim blaming in a way that I think most of us would have thought had gone. So I talk about being raped by a colleague in the army at a time when I was very, very vulnerable, struggling with post-traumatic stress disorder. And some of the comments on the times were, well, what did you expect if you go to, you know, his house.

I'm like, well, I went to a colleague's house for a drink. I didn't expect to be raped, you know. But some of the comments were horrifying, actually, horrifying that people not only might still think those things, but they're prepared to write those things. And then I went, Lorraine, Breakfast TV. She invited me on the sofa. I had a wonderful morning. She was incredibly.

She was just so kind and compassionate and made me feel so welcome. So I told my story on breakfast TV. And then the next day I lost my job. I was a phone call out of the blue, just told that my position was no longer tenable. Oh my God, Gemma. Why were you fired? Did they give you a reason?

Not a reason that made sense. My performance had been exemplary. You know, you know the kind of 360s that go. around an organisation, I was the highest ranking leader. And I'd had no warning, it was completely out the blue. I'd gone from being incredibly high performing, ranked as such, feedback being given as such to literally overnight. No warning, just being given that.

It hurts, really hurts. Because it replays a pattern of what happened when I was serving in the military. You know, when I was an army officer, I had a career for life. I'd been given what was called a regular commission, which means that you have a job for life, basically. Most commissions are only three to five years long, and then you have to reapply. I'd been given one that was right to retirement.

I'd been awarded the Sword of Honor, the Carmen Sword of Honor, which meant that you were ranked the best young officer in the whole of the Corps, which was at the time was about 16% of the British Army. So, you know, that I was, I suppose you'd call it a thruster. You know, I was up there. with the best. And when I came back from an operational tour in Kosovo, I was, I was traumatized

and my, I don't really know what was happening to me. My behavior, I couldn't sleep. I was hypervigilant. And I didn't, I couldn't retain information. I was having flashbacks, nightmares. And I didn't really know what, what was happening to me. But I couldn't control it. I couldn't get a grip of it. And eventually I had to ask for help because it got so bad. And then when I asked for help, I felt completely cast out. I went from being number one to Captain Morgan's lost the plot. And those patterns replay, really.

You know, if you ask for help and you share that vulnerability, but then you're ostracized, whether explicitly or implicitly, both are incredibly damaging. My medical notes, when I went into therapy, the army gave me therapy. They shared my medical notes through the chain of command. They'd been shared to the point where I was gossiping in the sergeant's mess.

And in an environment in the military where as an officer and soldier, the whole identity is strong and resilient. You know, there's this kind of irrespective of what gender you are, You are strong and resilient, and there's this kind of warrior ideal. Certainly what you don't do is show any vulnerability because that undermines your credibility. So to have that kind of very personal information and certainly a mental health stigma shared, it was devastating.

And I literally went into hiding. I just, and self-medicated, I just, I didn't feel there was any coming back from it. And it's as damaging as what people don't say as much as what they do say. And even today I'd say when releasing my book, there's family members, even some close friends that I know have read the book. And yet they've said absolutely nothing. And that's probably because they don't know what to say. But that's really, really hurtful.

You know, you're sharing the most intimate, deepest parts of your life for a higher purpose. and a, you know, close relationships, read it and say nothing. And that's, yeah, it's really, really hard. And it comes back to, well, is it really okay to say? Is it? I think that so speaks to the culture that we live in, isn't it? That we just, in all these different situations, the pattern you can identify such a clear pattern. Yeah, like we want you to speak out, speak out, speak out, speak out, be open, be honest and talk about your feelings.

but then you're punished, literally punished, if you do. And there's some people that, you know, it's not all that side. There are, you know, what drives me forward is the purpose because I've had, since I've published my book, I've had, you know, emails from people that I've never met that have just said, thank you, you know, you validated my experience, I'm in it, I'm really struggling and reading it

has validated how I'm feeling and what's happening to me or, you know, I've had apology from some people that I served with who said, gosh, I saw it, Gem, and I did nothing, and I'm so sorry. And that's okay, because I feel like okay, so we're starting to see it differently. That's okay. Can I ask about what it was that they were seeing? What it was that was your experience? Could you tell us what it was like serving as a high-ranking

and objectively very good soldier as a woman? I didn't come from a military family. So there was, there's no kind of military background at all. And I went to an all-girls school. There was no cadets or, you know, on careers evening, you didn't have military. It wasn't really the done thing. So I was already an outlier saying, well, I want to join the army. But I'd always been a tomboy.

You know, I was better than half the boys on the football pitch, but I wasn't allowed to play. You know, that type of thing. That was me through and through. And I remember the first day at Santos that, The stuff that pulled me in, there was this advertising campaign that the army had. I think they still have it. The slogans be the best. And it really appealed to me because everything was about, gosh, you know,

I loved pushing myself physically. I loved pushing myself psychologically and just seeing what I was capable of. I loved that, the discipline of the environment and all of that. And the real purposefulness of it all. I learned very quickly that you had this kind of, I describe it as like a double bind being a woman. where you had to show that you were better than the average guy to get on. And the rules weren't the same. No one said it, but they weren't the same.

So you had to constantly be pushing and you had to be better than the average guys to be noticed and recognised. But then if you were too good, it was then a threat. So then you had to make yourself a bit smaller as you walked into a room. So you're constantly on this tight rope of, being good enough but not being threatening and there was deep misogyny and yeah abuse that started I would describe the army it's almost quite cult like you know when you join the way that they train it's very very effective they you know you're encouraged to kind of cut off from your

civilian world you're behind the wire and you become absolutely dependent on the people around you you're all going through it together so you you rely on each other, because without each other, you can't survive. So it's a very powerful way of forming a team. But with that comes consequence, because if you don't belong, whether that's because of your gender, your race, your sexual orientation, whatever, any kind of point of difference, if you don't belong in that power group, you're in a very vulnerable and actually quite unsafe place because it's quite predatory.

and for me when I was one of the lads it was wonderful I was like yes I've made it I'm one of the lads you know I've made it but as soon as I emphasised a point of difference through having post-traumatic stress disorder coupled with my gender

I became very vulnerable and it became a very unsafe place for me to be certainly I wasn't looked after and I wasn't what was promised was a duty of care and that absolutely failed me. So yeah, being a woman, I never really saw

there being an issue initially being a woman serving while the wheels were on. It was only when the wheels started to come off that you noticed stuff. It's interesting there because you say, you know, there wasn't an issue until the wheels came off and obviously there was a very clear issue when they did But within that as well, you know, I know from your book, and I've heard you, I've heard you to speak before about how even the uniform wasn't made for women.

You were wearing small men's boots. Like there's, what was it on your chest? What is it called on your chest where you get like basically no booboles, I suppose, I guess. Yeah. What is it? Are they flat jackets? Yeah, it's your body armour. Body armour.

They're not making that for women. So, and talking, you know, this hearing you speak about that tightrope that you're on, it's like, Although, yes, it was exacerbated and very clear when things started to go really wrong for you personally, it sounds like there's a lot wrong. There was a lot wrong within the culture that just made what you were doing that much harder. It did. And there's a huge amount of energy that you expend desperately trying not to be othered. I spent so much energy and I know others did to minimising. the true bit of the wholeness of who I am in order to fit in with the dominant group.

I mean, recently the Bishami of, it was in the press, I think it was a few years, a couple of years ago where they basically said, oh, we're going to start designing kit for women. And I think that's a mate, I think that's brilliant, but it's not exactly progressive, is it? Let's be honest. I mean, we've had this really good idea. You know, we've got all these, like, soldiers that are women. We're going to start making uniform for them. I mean, you know, and even.

we're going to provide sanitary products for women on operations because when you're on operations obviously you can't get stuff so and they'd never provide the sanitary products for for you and and you would have to DIY sanitary products and that they now do over the last couple of years they've decided that it would be a great idea to provide sanitary but again I mean I smile but it's not funny no it's horrific it's outrageous it's so the men would be provided with shaving products but you'd have to DIY your sanitary products if you ran out absolutely wild so things like socks become quite useful genuinely

yeah I'm not surprised and then the kit what was what was the kit like for your uniform the hardest thing with the kit was when you're as a woman if you're carrying weight so you wear webbing which is it's like the stuff that goes around your waist that kind of sits on your hips like the pouches that sit around your hips and you have a rucksack on. But if you're wearing a rucksack that doesn't fit your back

because it's too long, so I wasn't so bad, but for the petite women, you couldn't, it would hugely affect your operational effectiveness because you've got an annual skeletal issues and injuries that would be caused because of the weight being poorly carried and rubbing on you. And it, you know, I never wore body armour, but I understand it was the same.

with body armour because, you know, women's bodies fundamentally are different. And for them to perform at their optimum, we need to invest in kit and stuff. Now, they are now, which I think is fantastic. But it does go to show, if you use that as a metaphor for everything else, it just shows how behind the British Army are when they're thinking about inclusion and creating an environment where everybody can thrive. Was there like a scarcity mindset amongst your female? male peers, was there like a sense of competition because there were so few of you?

I'm wondering whether you banded together because you were all women or whether it was the opposite of that, whether you had to go and forge your own path and not be lumped in with the other women because it would then be harder to thrive in this male-dominated environment. I think there's a bit of both. I think, you know, the same as in the corporate world. You know, there's some women that will, if you like, take on the role of a man and almost be like the men and tread down anyone that's in competition, particularly other women that are in competition. And then there are others who will do everything they possibly can to help each other.

So I think I wouldn't like to stereotype it, but I would say the reality of it, once you leave Sandhurst, you're often deployed, attached, well, I was often attached to somebody. So if you're attached to a male dominant environment, then you might be the only woman in that. environment so you're then very isolated um or there might be one or two of you and the danger then is the expectation is well you two are women so you're going to get on and it's not always that's not always the case um so so yeah being in the minority brings its challenges um i'd say and you have to make

sure you're safe to talk about safety and only if you're comfortable would you mind sharing the story of your of this the sexual abuse that you injured during the army and sort of how that happened and how you dealt with it. Do you know, the most interesting thing for me on my recovery journey is that I've only recently started talking about what happened in terms of the sexual abuse because I think in my psyche, it was just part of. And I look back now, certainly as a mum now, of a young, my daughter, you know, as a young woman, and I think I'm horrified, that that was seen as the norm, you know, it was just what was expected.

I think the first time it happened to me was, I was a young troop commander, so early 20s, and I was in my first posting, and they have this officers to sergeant's mess or sergeants to officers mess every Christmas. And Christmas, I mean, drugs aren't permitted in the military. It's very much frowned upon, but alcohol was always not only permitted but encouraged. So you'd spend your kind of Christmas period, three weeks of it, completely sozzled, you know. And it was just what was, everything was subsidised. So a pint of beer cost you about 20p, you know. It was just, that was the culture.

And officers go to sergeant's mess. And the sergeants would, you know, do this assault course that you had to jump over trumpets and everything before they'd let you in the mess. And then, you know, it was all that type of banter. And as I was leaving the mess, a senior soldier served in the region of kind of 20 years. You know, it's a very experienced senior soldier. There was like this, you know, this kind of phone booth where you had the public phones and there was like a booth kind of on the side near the entrance to the sergeant's mess. And he, big guy, he didn't push me into there, but he came out from the bar with me as I was leaving.

And the only place I could go was into the booth, if that makes sense. and he assaulted me then and I just remember just appeasing him just trying to be really nice to get out of that situation and I wouldn't describe it as a serious sexual assault but it was still a sexual assault and I remember running when I got

because he was disturbed someone else came out from the bar and I left just running down that road back to the officer's mess. And you then have to see this person on camp every single day. You're working with them. And he was on guard duty. And when I took over guard duty, he wouldn't give me the file. And he kept saying, oh, you know, come around to my house to collect the file.

You know, so there's all this, I didn't go around to his house. But there's all, your constant, you can't escape it, if that makes sense. And that makes you on tender hooks the whole time. And also it was unsaid. but you couldn't complain about it because then you become a troublemaker and it's like, well, it's just part of the deal, you know. And it very much, well, what were you doing in that situation?

So that was the first time it happened and it made me realize if I ever went out and if there was alcohol involved, I needed to take a wingman, which worked for a period of time. Then when I came back from Kosovo, I was traumatized by what I'd experienced out there and the symptoms of trauma didn't, they didn't ease,

they got worse so the normal pieces that you'd expect with some of PTSD so I'd have flashbacks I was hypervigilant I couldn't sleep they just got worse and worse and I didn't know what to do with it so I started to self-medicate because I needed to sleep you know I I and so I just started to drink you know and my behaviour changed and I went from being very very fit to struggling to pass a fitness test I was late at work that was never me, you know, I'd withdraw. I've gone from being a sociable, you know, person in the officer's mess. And when you're in an environment like that, that makes you very, very vulnerable. So I never had a wingman, you know, I'd drink too much. And I made myself vulnerable. That said,

none of that was an excuse for what happened. And one night, we'd all been out in town and we came back and we um the married officers live on the patch where the houses are and we were all in one of those houses and one of the officers said oh you know let's go and get another drink and I was I'd had too much to drink and I went with him kind of jumping over the back fences to to go and get what I thought was another drink and I ended up in his kitchen and I was like oh shit you know no one else is coming it's just me but he was a colleague and he was a married colleague so there was There wasn't anything weird about that. Yeah, and what happened was horrific.

And I didn't stop him. That wasn't for you to do though, Gemma. I'm really sorry for you. Yeah, and I remember afterwards just completely disheveled and sobbing on the way back to my room in the office's mess. And the next morning I went to the medical centre, which is all on camp everything's

everything's behind the wire there's no second opinion or external everything's in it in this and the conversation was all it was was about my responsibility about contraception because I needed the morning after pill there wasn't anything about consent

and I was sobbing I was absolutely distraught I was a complete mess still wearing the clothes from the night before and there was never a conversation about consent it was all um yeah it was all about taking responsibility for contraception and i think that put another layer of trauma on top of my already very very vulnerable state um and i didn't try and talk about it again until very recently i'm so sorry that's so horrible and it's

it's just unthinkable that there's nowhere for you to go then it's like there's no one to tell because he's your senior colleague and and you did tell someone because you went to to the medical centre and that's how you're treated I'm so sorry yeah I like I don't want to I don't want to push you to talk about this further if you don't want to because I know within that you've got your PTSD from Kosovo it just feels like such a um it just feels like way too much that way too much for one person to take? I mean, I am talking about it now because I hope it will help someone else.

You know, there's elements that I've made sense of and I can probably talk quite articulately about and there's other bits, as you'll probably hear, that I haven't quite made sense of yet. It's interesting because I've got all my medical notes from the military, which often people don't have, but I asked for mine quite early, which was quite savvy, I think, I don't really remember doing it.

That day when I went to see the nurse and went to the medical centre, I can read what's been written in there. And now at the age of 50, when I go back through and read my medical notes, it's horrifying because you're so kind of trapped behind the wire that you don't seek a second opinion. You're entrenched and indoctrinated with such a loyalty to the British army that to speak out, to whistleblow, if you like, even now is this sin, it's this, you know, it's this mortal sin. So it's really, if you do speak out, you're one of the few, if you do challenge, you're one of the few.

And I still feel it now, you know, I feel this kind of, I feel incredibly proud and privileged to have served with some really incredible women and men. and with that comes this real loyalty to service and king and country and but on the other hand I'm like no this this isn't right and you have a duty to change this for the women that are coming after me so there's quite this this this juxtaposition that I feel about it really did you contemplate reporting it at the time or was it just out of the question given the environment that you were in and the response that you knew you were going to receive from reporting it? I had planned to tell the nurse that saw me in the medical centre that morning. And through my tears, I believe I tried. I don't know how I would have articulated it. I don't know what I would

have said. It's one of those things, isn't it? I think, you know, sometimes it just demands somebody else just to ask the question and if someone frankly is sat there completely distraught asking for the morning after pill you might think to ask the question if they're okay I think I would describe it

I just went into hiding I just tried to cope and became very good then at putting this mask up and then I did go the army did offer me treatment for my PTSD they were treating me which people today would consider negligent the way they treated me.

So they would ask me to come in with all the nature of the job I was doing in Kosovo. I had photos and videos and of the ethnic cleansing that was going on. And I was asked to bring them in and I'd have to talk them through. So I'd open the photos and I'd talk through this thing. These horrific images and stuff. And then the session would end and she had this like cassette recorder. You know the old like with the cassettes? she'd record it and she'd give me the tape

and she'd say listen to that until our next session so I'd go back and I'd have to listen to this tape each night of these events and look at the photos and come back to the next session and the way I just I just did not know what to do with what was happening and now looking back they were re-traumatizing me it was absolutely negligent

you had to take your own you had to take photos of the thing that had traumatised you to therapy show them in the therapy and then listen every night by yourself to yourself reacting to the things that gave you trauma in the first thing. I don't know shit about therapy, but that sounds so bad. But I didn't question. I didn't question it.

I'd ask for help and I thought this was the help. I trusted that the duty of care and the professionalism of the medics inside the military, that was what was happening. And then the psychiatrist diagnosed me with what he said was, in my medical notes say a moderate effective disorder. down to her genetic predisposition. And really, so they treated me for the trauma and then they'd basically said,

look, you've got a kind of moderate depression as a result of your genetics. And that was so deeply damaging on a number of fronts because what I heard was, okay, well, if it's down to your genetics, it's fixed and you're buggered. So you might as well not bother trying anymore because there's something wrong with you. It's your fault.

and is your genetic makeup. The other thing that that diagnosis said was the military have no responsibility here whatsoever. This is nothing to do with Kosovo, even though they treated me for all the trauma symptoms specifically and directly about Kosovo. It's nothing to do with the army. And by the way, so we have no duty or responsibility here,

so suck it up. And that sense of it's my fault I'm to blame is deeply, deeply damaging. And I think, you know, coming back to today, if we're asking people to speak up and ask for help, we have to truly listen. We have to wrap around them, which sometimes is just holding them. You know, sometimes there's no solution right now. It's just holding them and unconditionally being there for them. It's certainly not batting it away or batting it as someone else's responsibility

or pretending we haven't heard. That it's so damaging. And for me, it became, It drove me to want to end my life. You know, it was that because there wasn't any point anymore. You know, I certainly couldn't live with how I was feeling and what was happening to me. And I just became increasingly desperate because if it was me and my fault, I internalized it all. Your PTSD, I suppose you weren't diagnosed then at the time

if they say that they felt they dealt with your cause of her trauma and the rest of it was genetic. We know that PTSD is wildly misunderstood. and has something that many people who've served in the military are suffering with long after they've served as well. And it's one of the things that Help for Heroes is now focusing on and has been for the last decade since we've been actively in combat anywhere because of the ongoing health, the ongoing mental health ramifications

of doing the job that you do. And, you know, this goes back as long as time. They called it shell shock, I suppose, before they called it PTSD, but although there is so much of this was exacerbated by the fact you were a woman, do you think your experience of PTSD and the treatment and stigmatization of it and the way you felt after what you'd experienced in Klosovu? Do you think that was happening to your male colleagues as well with their mental health? Yeah, I'm sure it was.

Yeah. I'm sure it was. I think, I mean, it may be in a slightly different way, but I think all of us irrespective of gender were in an environment where, you know, there was this warrior archetype, you know, and strong and resilient was part of our identity and you didn't dare show any vulnerability. Now, for me, a lot of womanhood and femininity is seen as more softer and vulnerable, so you hid all of that. But for the guys as well, you know, certainly back then admitting or facing into the fact that you were struggling mentally

the fear for many of us was that it was a weakness and it was career ending you know I in terms of now I think it is spoken about more there is more training in the British military around it

there wasn't then but there is more now but we're still not where we need to be and the stigma is huge still and as a result suicide is I don't know the statistics off the top of my head but disproportionately affect those who've been in the armed services,

which really isn't surprising hearing about the support that you were offered after everything that you've been through or lack there of support-wise. I think when you, when you're serving and, you know, the British Army, they create, there's very strong identity in you.

You know, you do change hugely from training and through in terms of who am I, you know. But they don't then invest the same amount of energy in helping you unpack that as you then enter into the civilian world. And they don't necessarily help you, in my view, in a very meaningful way. Yes, they'll help you how to write a CV. But I'm talking about identity to really start to unpack, okay, well, who am I now? Because you spend all this time cutting off from your civilian.

You don't want to be a civilian because you're taught implicitly and explicitly that you're somehow better and you're there to save civilians because you're stronger and you're more resilient and all these things so you don't want to be seen as a civi. A civi is like a, it's awful to say it,

but civis. You know, it's like them over there. You don't want to identify being a civi. So then when you leave, particularly if you leave earlier than you had expected through an injury, whether that's visible or invisible,

it's really hard because you're you then are forced to become a civilian which is something that you don't want to be and you're having to change your behaviours to be palatable and acceptable in the civilian world and as a woman that's really hard because you've taken on very male-like behaviours you're very assertive you learn a leadership style that is very masculine and you come out and it is absolutely not a,

acceptable you go into the corporate world and as a woman stood there it's like well you know she's overly aggressive she's overly you know blunt all of those things that actually are harder for a woman but if you're a female soldier coming out it's a double whammy because you're having to then become a woman in the civilian world and let go of everything you've been taught I remember when I came out and I had I was I had a first child and I'd go to a coffee morning and I'd still be wearing like boots and jeans and didn't wear makeup and I was still very much a woman in a man's world and I would sit on those coffee mornings with other mum was just thinking I am so out of place here um even wearing makeup at all I remember on

my wedding day I was like well I've got to get my nails done I'd never had a wax before my eyebrows had never been waxed and I remember the the beautician saying right we'll get rid of those you know, let's get rid of that monobrow type thing. None of that, because none of that was important, you know. So it's a real shift of identity, I think, is what I'm trying to say in a, and the men feel it too, but I do think as a woman coming out and trying to play the role of a woman in a civilian world is really hard because you're having to let go of everything you've been taught

at a very formative time of your life. Did your exit from the army time with that period where you just felt suicidal and you couldn't take anymore? was that when you left? Yeah, so my, I took an overdose while I was still serving. And I chose to leave because I was just angry and disgruntled. And they just weren't looking after me. So they were going to post me up north, about as far north as you could go.

And they were going to post my husband in Germany. And we had a brand new baby. And I was struggling with my mental health and was permanently. downgraded, which means that you can't do everything on your job, you're downgraded. And you think, well, if you can't even have managed to have posted us somewhere in the vicinity where we could have at least seen each other at weekend. So it just became unmanageable, really, and we left. But it wasn't until several years later, it was 2006, so I left the military in 2002.

And I'd got so ill in that period of time that I wasn't answering the front door. I wasn't able to answer the phone. Even the smallest of getting up in the morning, I wasn't looking after myself or showering or not deliberately. I just didn't have the energy to do it. And I was trying to look after a young child. And it got so bad that my husband took me to a private

psychiatrist and he diagnosed me with severe post-traumatic stress disorder which he said was directly attributable to my military service and that operational tour in Kosovo and that just felt like it was like it's not me there's actually something wrong with me here there's hope that someone might be able to help me and it's not me and it's not fixed inside of me and then I went home for the Christmas after that appointment and things got so bad I think maybe because of the relief

of the diagnosis I don't know but come of January I was admitted into hospital and deep treatment started which wasn't comfortable you know I went to hospital I had to stop breastfeeding I had five months old or second child

and you can't can't take a kid into hospital, so, you know, straight away. So it was all the hormonal stuff. You know, I'd stop breastfeeding overnight and couldn't see him because it had got really, really bad. And I, that was the closest I came to ending it. I think when you get to the lowest, lowest point, there has to be something, some kind of light or hope to just,

even if it's just a snippet, just something, a glimmer for you to move forward, with and I wouldn't describe it that I wanted to die. I would describe it that I needed the pain to end. I needed it to stop. And the meds and the self-medication, none of it was working anymore. I just needed it to stop. I needed relief from it. And after that attempt, which I was very lucky to come round from,

I remember my hubby was on the phone to the hospital. And my two young kids ran in, sitting with front sitting room. And I was really poorly. And I just remember thinking, gosh, you know, I mean, genuinely, it was like, they're going to grow up without a mum. That was the hope for me. That was the purpose. That was the right. I've got to change this.

I've got to do something because next time it, you know, I might not be so lucky. And that was the start, really, of going from the absolute. lowest point to just starting to slowly rebuild and it really was rebuilding it was a case of getting dressed cooking a meal taking the kid for a walk in the pram you know that it was really basic steps and which then built up to getting a job and you know and those things but I had to have some some light some something to move towards and for me that was that was and still is my kids you're doing an amazing thing sharing all of this I think you know, what you've described is so unique and sounds so horrific and so isolating.

But on a level, the scenarios that you've been in are scenarios that to maybe a lesser extent or in a different parallel way are things that women are still struggling with and still there's victim blaming, there's feeling like there's no one to turn to. and beyond women and and the conversation of sexual assault to talk about PTSD in that way will be so comforting for so many people to hear that you can because that was nearly 20 years ago and you've come and you've made it through all of that

and that's really amazing thank you there's catharsis I suppose for me in making sense of it you know to write my book I've had to make sense of it and kind of which has been cathartic for me it's been incredibly painful but cathartic but purposeful you know

I think if I can it has been a flip it's been such a long time but you know what I couldn't have talked about this back then I couldn't have even started to try and make sense of it I couldn't certainly wasn't in a position to be able to share it

So if I am now, there's two bits. One, it's kind of a bit of exorcism for me, you know, putting the devil down, as it were, and going, you know what, I'm not carrying this anymore. But then the other bit is also, you know, the idea of my daughter entering a world and her friends entering a world. Like the one that I had to navigate horrifies me. So if I can do something with others to shift, that narrative then yeah then for those that that need it and I need that

that listening ear then hopefully you know it makes a difference your daughter must be so proud of you oh my God I feel really emotional I'm so sorry it's just it's so rough what you've been through and it must be really hard to like to sit here and relive it and tell a tale that is so vulnerable and so traumatic, it's just so much trauma that you've been through. But I have no doubt the good that your book and you telling your story will be doing for so many, like M said, not just women in the military or women who have come out of the military, but women who have experienced on a different scale, perhaps in different circumstances, but the same thread

of what you've experienced and say thank you. That's a pleasure. I just hope there's a, you know, I hope women and men listening to it can just, I suppose, you know, maybe even choose environments where they can be who they are, you know, and not have to minimise themselves. And I think I'd love to see us all, you know,

asking each other how we're feeling, but asking not once, twice three times you know you can't ask too often just how you're feeling and then really let's just really listen truly listen to the response you know rather than ignoring the response or pretending we haven't heard the response or looking at our phone and being distracted yeah it's okay to say but it also needs to be okay for you to listen and for you to hear and to demonstrate that you've really heard because for me I would say having the to be vulnerable enough to ask for help and then being left unsupported is so damaging

and desperate. Even if we don't know the correct, the perfect response to the response, like we might know not, we might not know how to perfectly deal with someone telling us how they're feeling, but just trying or being honest and saying, I don't know where to go from here, but let's do it together and not being scared of approaching it at all because of that fear of not getting it right I think it's important as well just to have someone listen

means everything and sometimes you know you don't know what to say and that's okay I've had people over my journey that have really special people that have said nothing and they've just come and sat with me and I describe it that they've held me you know that

at those times there was no moving forward it wasn't a case of finding a solution because there wasn't a solution certainly there wasn't one that the person with me could find or have an answer to. But it was just a case of holding me, you know, sometimes physically, sometimes just being in the same room. And I'd love that. I'd love, you know, anyone listening to this conversation, just maybe just noticing, oh, you know, I haven't heard from so and so recently, let me just ask. And let me not ask once, let me ask twice and really truly be there to listen.

It's okay that I don't have the answers. I'm just there to listen. And, and, and, and, And I'll hold you why we find those answers. Because that can save someone's life. Gemma, thank you so much for this. We're going to leave the link to the Samaritans in the show notes for anybody who is struggling or has been affected by anything we've spoken about today. I'll also leave the link to the Help for Heroes support page for anyone with more specific relations to what Gemma's talked about. But we're also going to leave the link to your book.

Wonderful. Pink Camouflage, which is available. It's out now. And we'd encourage everybody to read because you've told, I mean, you've told a part of a very complicated and empowering in lots of ways story. And I'm sure there are so many people who want to hear so much more from you. So thank you so much, Emma. It's an absolute pleasure.

Thank you for, yeah, just being so open. And you can come through it. I think, you know, it's what I'm sat here with you guys today. Thank you. pleasure. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.