Should I Delete That? - Man vs. Bear: Is Misogyny Worse Than Ever?

Episode Date: May 12, 2024

This week on the podcast, Em and Alex are joined by Farah Benis, founder of Catcalls of London, a campaign which raises awareness and amplifies stories of public sexual harassment. Following the internet's recent obsession with the man vs bear debate, Farah and the girls delve into one big question: is misogyny worse now than ever?Follow @catcallsofldn on InstagramYou can check out Farah's online store here: www.houseoftomfoolery.com 60% of all profits from "Lonely Old Slag" products will be donated to RefugePurchase tickets here for our first ever ✨LIVE TOUR!!✨Follow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Where my safety is concerned, there is no both sides. And I don't give a shit about your discomfort, frankly. You know what? Having these kind of conversations and instigating any kind of change is going to be an uncomfortable process. This week on the podcast, we are talking man versus bear. It's a hypothetical scenario. Would you rather be alone in the woods with a man or a bear that has blown up on social media?

Em did a couple of posts about it on Instagram, fairly innocuous posts, I might add, but it's led to some pretty vile abuse to the point where she's actually considering phoning the police. We knew we had to delve deeper into this man versus bear topic to explore just why it is such a divisive question. Enter Farah Benis, the founder of Catcalls of London, a campaign which raises awareness and amplifies stories of public sexual harassment. Farah and M also have a pretty cool T-shirt collab plan, so listen out for details of that too. But without further ado, here's Farah.

Hi, Farah. Thank you so much for coming to speak to us today. I feel like this has been complete serendipity. You came into my DMs after you were a welcome addition to my DMs because I have had, I've had a week. for context for listeners I posted a video about the man versus bear debate last week I well I barely even had an opinion can I just say

but I basically did a video commentating on this kind of trend that's going across the internet where women were asked would you rather be in the woods alone with a man or a bear and overwhelmingly women were choosing the bear of my followers when I asked them 83% said they choose the bear that's the answer that kind of felt like a full stop for me

and it just kind of felt like a sad indication of where we were at within our society and it has gone down so fucking badly I got the biggest understatement of the world I have had so much abuse and vitriol disbelief anger

misogynistic deranged messages since it happened and I need to talk I need help I need to talk about it and there's no one better to talk to about it than you you run an Instagram account

called Cat Calls of London and I think it's about time definitely on this podcast that we had a check in with the kind of state of misogyny in the country and the kind of general atmosphere and like from where I'm sitting

right now it feels kind of worse than ever what do you think first of all thanks for having me oh gosh where to even start with it all i mean it's such a huge topic isn't it yeah this whole bear discourse i think one of my favorite takes that has come out of it that i've seen is that even in a hypothetical question men still can't take no for an answer yeah um and i've seen so much vitriol online aimed towards women that have even dared to say you know i'd choose the best

and you yourself have experienced it. Before we got started, you know, I was talking about, I've had some really bad experiences with people jumping into my DMs over saying and saying things that shouldn't be controversial. For example, women should feel safe walking down the street at night. Should they, though?

Should they? How dare we want to feel safe? You know? So divisive, honestly. So divisive. We've got such a controversial guest with you guys. But this is the thing. these topics do seem to pull out a certain aspect of the population of men and the way they

respond is really, really concerning. I feel like we all live, very many of us live online these days and there's that anonymity that comes with it and people have forgotten almost how to behave in the real world. So, you know, some of the DMs that you've received, some things I've received you know i have had to report to the police because they are so concerning and people wouldn't say that in the real world at all but they're emboldened online but the other side of that is for me these are things people think right so these are people that you work alongside you your bus driver your teacher you know they might not necessarily portray these views in the real in the real world but behind this visage of anonymity on the

internet they're going full throttle um and that to me is extremely frightening and scary i agree because you said they're you know these people wouldn't say it in real life but the stats are showing that they are doing it in real life you know that's kind of what i found really frustrating here is that the statistics are horrific you know wherever you look then you end did that report in 2020 i think that said like 94 percent of women aged 18 to 24 had had been had experienced sexual harassment. One woman is killed every three days in the UK by a man. And it's like they're still arguing with these statistics, but... Hashtag not all men. Not all men. Not all men. Not all men. All the fucking time. Not all men. And there were so many women in the comments as well going,

this is so unfair. We're really man bashing those. You know, they're blessed them because it's a really hard time to be a man because they could be falsely accused of rape, which as we've talked about before. They're 230 times more likely to be raped themselves and to be falsely accused of it. But the thing, and there was so much of that as well from men in the comments and women, it's a really hard time to be a man. Like, this doesn't help. This is divisive. And it's such a manipulative thing to do to completely undermine women's safety and our feelings because it is a tough time to be a man. And yes, it is because of depression and because of the pressure on them and because of a million different things that are completely unrelated to women's involvement and

women's fear of male violence. But sorry, I keep getting so sidetracked because I'm so passionately angry about it. I feel you. But yeah, I think that's the sticking point for me that feels really frustrating is that they are arguing with the statistics. And yes, it's like the not all men, not all men, not all men thing. But the statistics are showing that it is a lot of men and it is nearly all women. It's also always a man. So what are your, I don't know, what are your kind of rebuttals to the comments about statistics? Rebuttals to statistics. I don't really rebut them. I just throw more statistics at you. You can't argue with statistics. But people try. People do try. So people bring up this, okay, what about men? And I always say, these things

happen to men too. But the perpetrators are always men. So why are we here fighting each other or why are you here in my DMs arguing with me when actually we have a fear of the exact same predator. So shouldn't we be working together rather than trying to derail my conversation, rather than trying to derail wider efforts that, you know, campaigners and people who are visible online talking about these issues, work with us and let's find solutions.

We have to educate people better, right? we have to call out people when we see shitty behavior in front of us, you know, all of these things. But I feel like the hashtag not all men crew are just as bad as the perpetrators. And if not, they're enablers of it. If not actually the kind of people who are going out and doing this thing themselves. They out themselves online. That's how I feel. Why do you think that men feel so triggered and so defensive about this,

about any kind of discourse around misogyny or, you know, what's at the core of, do you think, of them feeling so defensive about it? Guilt. I mean, you know, that's one aspect of it. No one likes to be told that they're a problem, right? Everyone gets defensive. If I sat, you know, if you sat here and told me, I don't like this about you, I might get my back up a little bit.

And so I can understand this perspective. where if you as a man are constantly being told by the media, by women, by everyone, you are a predator, you are awful, you are this. And actually, you're just a regular old Joe who likes to sit at home, play your video games, keep your head down, and you don't see yourself as problematic. So I'm kind of going on a little shift here, but this now kind of moves into seeing a radicalisation of young men as well

because we see it happening more and more, especially with online insult culture, right? You have these lonely guys who feel like the world is against them and everyone hates them and they're not getting anywhere in life. And then they find these communities online where then, and these are predatory communities, they're looking for young vulnerable people

and attempting to radicalise them in that way. And within those communities, then their dislike turns to hatred and far worse. and they're told that actually go out and do certain things. They're taught how to manipulate. They're taught how to date rape women, how to slip drugs, where to purchase drugs, things like this. It's insane.

And these communities are so easy to find. I told you earlier, I got doxed on an InSail forum a few years ago. And it took me five minutes of Google searching to be able to get into, create a fake profile. while, I went down an insane wormhole of basically pretending to be an in-cell man while like infiltrating these communities because I just wanted to know, you know, know your enemy, so to speak. And it was insane, but it is so easily accessible. Can you kind of tell us what it's what it's like on there? It is so dark. Yeah. It almost feels like I really couldn't believe some of the stuff I was reading. It felt like almost like caricatures of

of every awful thing that we think about like all of the biggest fears we have about men in one place over and over again. You know, this absolute hatred for not just women, but anyone who's out in life just doing anything with their lives or not at home miserable, you know. it's a really awful community and it's constantly pushing trying to you know so if someone says oh I did this so for example I went and bought some drugs to spike someone there'll be a hundred people there commenting right if you don't go out and do this you're pathetic you're this you're weak you're you know so you can see how for younger more vulnerable people who don't have in real life communities how they can get sucked into this

but then this is where that shift goes from online into real world behaviour and they start perpetrating this and as you say the statistics back it up you know violence against women and girls is a serious serious issue that needs to be addressed I think so Mark Rowley actually did say that it has to be viewed as a terrorist threat

he's now the chief commissioner of the net which, yeah, but it's not treated as a terrorism. It's not. It's like, you know, what happened in Australia, in Sydney, like two weeks ago is another example of male violence. There's a complete agenda, and it's a hatred of women. And if there's were any other group targeting another group in this way, we wouldn't think twice.

But consistently, they refuse to use the language. And I appreciate that he has, but we don't. You know, like he's, and maybe it's the beginning of a shift, but I feel like the met have, you know, they've got some work. I mean, well, with that, you know, the example that you've just given from Australia, when the media thought that that was a brown man perpetrating those acts, terrorism was plastered all over the headlines. The moment that it was then said, no, this is a white man. It was, oh, he's mentally ill. He's got, yes, mental health. It's mental health issues.

And we can't keep separating things in that way when this is a recurring. theme and pattern that has been going on for years. You know, at what point do we say, okay, maybe you're mislabeling things. And equally, I find it's very damaging to people with actual mental health issues. Yeah, there are plenty of people with mental health issues who aren't going around targeting women in that way, right? And so it actually helps perpetuate these stigmas towards people who in no way would ever go out and do something like that. That's such a good point. Yeah.

Can we go back quickly to you getting docks? Yes. What happened? So it was after, I think I was on BBC, Sunday morning live. Right. And it's just my Instagram account kind of just blew up. And it started with people, a few guys in the comments, usual. And I started arguing with a few of them and annoyed a few, I guess, with my scathing shutdowns.

moved into the DMs, started escalating, would block, started new accounts. This was before, you know, Instagram has that feature now where if you block an account, it blocks all future accounts. At that time, it didn't have that. People seem to be bypassing that with me, though. I was going to say, I'm not convinced that works. Yes, I have several phones. If someone has an Instagram account linked to a different phone number, it's only if they're

actually linked. Exactly. So it is quite easy to bypass. But at that time, so I think there were a. few individuals in accounts that I can definitely identify were sort of the precursor to it. But no, I just remember it was a first moment where my phone started ringing and I answered it and it was some dude heavy breathing. And I hung up. And the moment I hung up, it rang again. And while I was on the phone like trying to going hello, hello, I could hear another call coming

through. And so what I found out later basically what had happened is my phone number, my full name, my home address. Luckily at the time it was actually an old home address. I'd just moved. But yeah, phone number, workplaces. Like all this information about me had been shared in this forum and they basically had said community call out, everyone have at it. My old workplaces were contacted, people trying to get information. I had HR from a place I worked at 10 years ago getting in touch with me to say that they were getting an insane amount of phone calls of people trying to get my information. It was absolutely just mind-blowing how fast it escalated. I ended switching off my phone, never switched it on again, got a new phone number. Even where I lived

at the time, although it had been a previous address that had been doxed, I decided to move again just in case because I was just, you know, you get extremely paranoid. I would leave the house and if someone's staring at me too long, I'd be like, oh my God, is this one of these people? have they found me somehow and this is because you went on the news and this was just talking how did we start this conversation so controversial to say

can we please not sexually harass women in public and you know another aspect of what I was talking about is how so much public sexual harassment is geared towards young girls as opposed to adult women and that again shouldn't be controversial to say out loud

and I do say I constantly say call it what it is it's paedophilia When an adult man is sexualising a young girl, it is one thing and one thing only. And yet when it comes to sort of this public sexual harassment and street harassment and catcalling, we minimise it. It's a compliment. Just smile. They're not paedophiles. Exactly.

Just get on with your day. Yeah, they just build us. Don't worry about it. Over the years, because I've had 28,000 stories of public sexual harassment from London alone, I've kind of compiled some stats around it. and now I'm probably cannot for the life of me remember exactly what it was. But I think it was something like 60% of the submissions I've received have come from under 18-year-olds.

And in those instances, I think it was 72% of them were wearing a school uniform. And, you know, that's the ultimate signifier that someone is a child. And in 100% of those instances, the perpetrator was an adult man. And that is paedophilia to me. the moment you're sexualising a child. And so that's what I was talking about. And apparently that's enough to, you know, rile up a certain corner of the population.

That makes me so frightened. Like, I feel sick about it. It is sickening. That's the word sickening. You know, people, I think this is the thing that I found really, really difficult, is the comments derail it, you know, the conversation that I've been having, I can't get over how bigger mountains been made out of a literal molehill. Like, I barely even said my opinion.

I didn't even say. I said I didn't fancy my chances with a bear, but I don't really fancy my chances with a man either. And I had the stats to back. You know, I barely said anything. And I found the almost the most dangerous thing has been the comments from people who you touched on earlier, these average shows who just feel defensive and they just feel triggered.

But how, I don't, I don't know how to get through to them about how incredibly dangerous what they're doing is. And these women who keep saying, oh, it's so hard to be a man. I really worry for it. My little boy would never. How dangerous what they're doing is because it completely invalidates a woman's fear.

And it means that we can't, we cannot ever. And I'm experiencing this more and more with this platform. I used to talk about this stuff all the time. And I'm scared. Like I'm a mum now. I have a baby. and I'm scared. Like I, the comments that I've had,

nothing used to shake me really, and the comments that I'm getting now are terrifying. And I can't talk about those because there's no way of finding the language that doesn't trigger the average chose and it doesn't trigger the good men and the not all men. And by not allowing me or you or any woman to share her experience because their feelings are hurt or they feel, they feel defensive,

they are they are allowing this culture that is killing women and I just I don't know how to get through to them I don't know

how to get them out the way and to understand how obtuse they're being and that feels like the biggest barrier that I can see in this whole situation you know we can see

the incels and their in cells and they're the very worst but it's like they're being protected accidentally by people who just won't listen to women

and I don't I can't it makes me so upset. It's a tough one, isn't it? Because you want, you know, I have a love-hate relationship with social media, by the way, mainly because of these experiences. So there are times where I jump in and I try to educate and I just say, you know what, this sounds like a good faith question. Let me go for it and then you get sucked in. And then it turns out. Well, you know, these people who want to play devil's advocate.

A devil doesn't need an advocate. He's a devil. Exactly. But also just to me, if you have a shitty opinion, voice your shitty opinion. Don't hide it behind this show of neutrality or I'm playing both sides. And also, where my safety is concerned, there is no both sides. And I don't give a shit about your discomfort, frankly. You know what?

Having these kind of conversations and instigating any kind of change is going to be an uncomfortable process. And quite frankly, I don't, like, as I don't. said, I don't give a shit about your comfort, because women's safety is more important to me. That wasn't your discomfort. I meant men. I'm just, I'm quite, like, I do feel like women, societally, we have a role to play where we know that if we are very overt with men and we tell them and we get angry and we get emotion, we won't be taking seriously. So I do think a lot of women, and you learn it from a young age, we know how to play the game. And it is, I don't even care. I am capable of

manipulating these men in order to get my point of view across because I know that I have to massage the ego before I put this in and then I tell them that they're so great and it's really not them and I understand why they're upset but maybe they can and it's so fucking tiring that we have to jump through these hoops but I don't know if there's I mean do you in your opinion having had these conversations is that what we need to do is that how that happens I used to do that and I just don't care enough anymore do you find that you can get to them the same way I think there are, look, there's the people who are going to be willing to listen and then there's the people who aren't. I go out into schools and I do workshops in schools because I actually

really just believe that the change is coming with future generations. I don't see any point in trying to change 50-year-old Dave from, you know, Hull's mind. Like if he's going to sit and send abusive messages and teeny weenie dick picks, you know, till whenever. But, so the that's not my priority. For me, it's, okay, how do we make things better for future generations? And to me, that's with young people. And honestly, like, going into schools, it gives me so much hope for the future. Kids are amazing. Like, these new generations coming up, and also, they're so spunky. Really? I was a conformer when I was younger. Do you know what I mean? I didn't really find my voice until I got a lot older. And the things that, you know, I mean, you see it, these walkouts

and protests and all, you know, they know how to advocate for themselves. And I love to see it. And it does. It gives me so much hope. I bring up these topics such as consent and we talk about sexual harassment. I did one recently and these boys made me laugh so much because they were literally sitting there just talking about, oh, no, that's not on. If I, if one of my made did that, I would absolutely bang him up. I'm just like, don't solve with violence, but love the energy. It's great. So yeah, and that's the side of thing that keeps me going in all of this is, you know what?

Yes, it's a really crappy world we're living in right now, and it is a difficult place for women, but I am seeing change and I am seeing a new generation coming through who know how to use their voices. and that's where we're really going to see, you know, well, maybe we won't, but hopefully your kids will. I have a dog. But, yeah. Yeah, you're right.

Then that's where the change is going to come. Because I think the 50-year-old, I hate saying Dave, because that's my husband's name. Sorry, Dave. Can you say Kevin? No, it's fine, Dave, because we'll get taken as a sound bite. That's true. Dave, this little twinky-dinky-dinky. Oh, my gosh.

I know so many days who are going to be so mad at me. 50-year-old Gareth. Garth sounds nice. Okay, 50-year-old... Mike. I love how names invoke different feelings. I think of what's the guy, Garth? What do you mean now?

How did I just like tea? My uncle's called Key. Oh, okay. Kevin. I don't know a Kevin. No, I don't know a Kevin. Do you know Kevin? I had an ex called Kevin.

Fine, Kevin. Perfect. There we again. Fifty-old Kevin. I forgot what I was saying. 50-year-old Kevin from. whole he's actually he's determined to misunderstand and to ignore any nuances in this conversation and probably can actually does understand and does acknowledge the can see the nuances but he's

not going to actually acknowledge that yeah and so you're right I think there's at a certain point you have to be like I'm going to allow you to just carry on as you are and I'm not going to try and change your mind because there's no point in trying you don't want to want to change your mind. You're not interested. But it is the younger generation that we're going to have an impact with. So I think that's really cool that you're doing that. With the rise of the N-cells, are they coming from schools as well? Are they young people? It is. So obviously there is an issue there. And it is something that needs to be addressed. Sort of Andrew Tate effect. Well, this is it. And I think we've seen more of these sort of

in cell idea influences come into the public sphere and you know this is the there's good things about social media there's bad things about social media unfortunately and it is what it is but I just do hope that also more education like the fact that we're even talking about in cells now well I was at a conference recently and I was able to talk about it and that was a security conference and five years ago absolutely no way I would have been having that conversation yeah right not in those kind of rooms and circles so there is a change and people are starting to listen but again this goes back to education i always say education is so important because young people need to so there's the learning part but there's also the community part right which comes within that people need to be

part of communities where you know is this in seldom stemming from people who are lonely people who don't have community, people who don't have anyone around them. So we need to also change that side of things as well, right? Well, I mean, that's the toxic masculinity. That's the thing. You know, that's the, that's the derailing comment. Overwhelmingly, I'm receiving, it's like, it is a hard time to be a man. It's like, yeah, the evidence shows that. The fact that suicide is the biggest killer of men under 45, the fact that there are boys who are so lonely, that their only way of coping with it is to turn into hatred. And it's so clear that the, well, from from here, it's so clear to see that the very thing that is causing this is the same thing that's harming women.

Men and women are being harmed in different ways by the same thing. It's a patriarchal society. It's toxic masculinity. But the thing that alarms me and concerns me so much is, like you say, this kind of in-cell ideology. And it's Laura Bates talks about it a lot, how the kind of man-of-sphere, which is sort of the step before in-cells. is becoming so prevalent online and this is what I keep saying that I'm really hating

it's like there's this guy if you've seen him on TikTok where he's Instagram and he's like he's a gym guy he's got really white teeth and he just yells when he drops the weights and he's like

but he makes these videos and they're so fucking manipulative but he makes me and he's like you want to lose a girl love her unconditionally do everything for her treat her nicely and it's this idea

that women are so manipulative and if you're the nice guy she'll leave you and the the I saw another guy nice looking guy filming you know like a P of E video in the car being like what these girls are wearing to the gym these days it just leaves nothing to the imagination why are they doing this and it's like they're posing them as real questions

they're normal looking guys they're making really digestible content but what they're pushing is so dangerous and it feels like this kind of like entryway and I I really get upset that there's no there doesn't appear to be a huge amount of mainstream non-toxic influences for men. It does feel like the sort of really successful ones are the ones that if they don't hate women, they don't like them. Do you know what I mean? Like it doesn't, it feels it feels very... I mean, it's the worst kind of engagement

farming, isn't it? Yeah. You know, taking things that they know are going to either appeal to certain people or annoy certain people. I mean, I think I'm guilty of posting something and it was I had COVID I was in bed I was on TikTok so you know when you're just thinking it's the first video I've ever posted

of myself talking this was a few months ago and it was if you're a man who has never oh god I can't even remember the wording now but if you're a man who's never taken advantage of a woman basically then congratulations you're normal

you don't deserve a blue Peter badge you're not amazing like just well done you're normal four, five million views, comments insane and sort of the stuff that you've been experiencing, you know, comments about my face, my voice, you know, what's wrong with her, but also, but women. And so I think this is an important conversation to have as well. So I said this thing and it was a little bit mean towards men, hurt their feelings. But that's it, that is my most viral piece of, you know, online.

thing that I've ever done and I could have continued with that, you know, and then I could have started saying even more crappy things or pushing it a little bit further or push into the man hating kind of thing because people do latch on to it. And if you want that quick like and, you know, if you look at these people on TikTok, what are they doing? They're monetising their TikToks. They're making money off of it. I don't believe that many of these people believe even half the crap that comes that they're coming out with i don't even believe andrew tate does i think he's actually a very smart man who's figured out how to monetize young people's hate i do i don't think he likes women i don't think he respects women no but some of what

he's saying i look at it and if you look at old videos of him yeah it's just like i mean he's obviously an absolute horror he's been arrested for human trafficking but and rape and all sorts like you know he's obviously a horror but i think so i'm saying that my mom he's obviously a horror but so much of what he's saying I think you're right it's engagement farming because it's top G top G top G Capitalism at its finest

It's even worse then It's even worse if he actually doesn't believe what he's saying But he's saying it because he knows he can monetise it I mean either way it's not great You know I don't know which particular gym bro you were talking about But I don't need to because there's hundreds of them You know they're a dime a dozen And again, I don't believe half of them believe.

I think they're Googling quotes or going to some AI bot and feeding in one thing and then telling it to give them scripts for 15 more. They probably don't. It's me just being mean now. Do they even understand what they're saying? The word's too long. Sorry. But with that, if someone's listening,

because this is something that made me a bit upset was people with sending me DMs being like, My boyfriend doesn't understand why I've chosen the bear. Like, my boyfriend doesn't, my boyfriend follows these accounts. He follows, he doesn't hate Andrew Tate. It's kind of entry-level man-as-fear shit that these women don't know what to do. They don't know what to do. What do you do? Have these conversations.

And if they don't listen. You have to have these conversations. And that tells you everything about the person that you're with that you need to know. That's what men can't cope with. It's these women's standards are getting so high. They can't cope with it. They can't cope with the fact that we've got. Not even high.

They're just like not in hell. The bar's gone from hell. Just rolling on the ground. It's too much. I can't. But it is true. If you think, you know, sort of cultural shifts, how long ago women needed men? You know, we couldn't have credit cards.

We couldn't get mortgages. We couldn't do any of these things. We literally could not exist. because this society was built for men and now those things are changing and look how many women are choosing to be alone and not be with men and not settle and that is really the issue here there's been a massive power shift and we see it we're seeing it in politics we see it we see it in everything the moment there's a power shift the people who are losing power start to grapple and you know even their behaviours become more extreme yeah and so many

maybe, you know, that is also why we're seeing this rise in violence again as well, because people are losing, they're losing their grasp on reality, they're losing their control. So do you think that's it, like that's at the root of it, is this shift in power? I think there's definitely, it's got, it can't be overlooked as a reason. Yeah, yeah. This is a conversation I've had the people in real life, this kind of like, other worlds, just real life. Sorry, with men, not on the internet, where it's been like, this, this world,

these these men hating feminists they're destroying everything yeah and it's bringing out some really fucking ugly opinions from people from men who are genuinely frightened that women don't need them anymore and that's kind of what it feels like that's been the overarching thing the feedback that I've got is you're lonely you're alone no one's gonna want to have children with you no one's I'm like okay I'm literally married mother but try again um good shot let's try next one. Oh, you're ugly. Okay, that was good. Try another one. Like, it's, you know, it's like they go through the bingo and it's like, okay, how can I tear this woman down? I'm going to tell her that she's worth us. I'm going to tell her that she's ugly. And none

of them are working. None of them are working because we don't care. Like, I believe that we're getting to a point where I don't care that you think I'm ugly. I don't care that you think I'm an old slag. I don't care. I don't care. And they can't cope with the fact that we don't care. And that's really, but we, but going back to the kind of manipulation that I talked about earlier. I'm like, I don't want men everywhere thinking that women don't care about them because that doesn't help. That does cause loneliness and that does cause isolation and that probably does lead to more in cells. So there has to be a balance, but it's so annoying that it's always the oppressed's responsibility to hold the hand of the, the, the prosecutor.

The oppressor. Yeah. And help them, help their feelings not be hurt as we all level it out. So I really feel like I'm just getting a lot. No, it's true. I'm just getting annoyed. I'm just getting annoyed. I've really been holding them to a lot of this. It's really getting to me. Well, I'm not surprised. Your comments have been horrific. And relentless. I'm like, you leave me alone. It's been 10 days. They just don't stop. And you didn't say anything.

You didn't even say anything. Also, statistically speaking, I'm right. The bears are fine. Bear's barely fuck with you. It mostly just leave you alone. Right. And there's, I don't know if you're seen there's a reel by Dylan Michael White, I think his name is. And he's a... The data analyst guy.

Yes, he's a data analyst. He's awesome. And there's no way I'll be able to quote it because it's figures and it goes way over my head, but it's clever and he breaks down the statistics. And he brings up the kind of ratio to bring the same amount of bears to men, to make bears, to compare them as a comparable threat.

He brings the kind of... He says he's doing the impossible because you can never do this because you'd have to consider a habitat and you'd have to consider all of these impossibly quantifiable things. But he brings everything up as best he can, not acknowledging other prey and food sources and all that kind of shit and still women are three times safer from death with a man than they are a bear

but that's not including sexual assault which bears have literally never done and it's amazing how many men have said to me well the bear will rape you the bear would rape there's not a single anecdotal thing I'm like if that's your defence well it hurt more if a bear rapes you than if I rape you has basically been the overwhelming defence also sorry no I was just going to say also you basically you're allowed to act in self-defense against a bear without having anything brought back onto you

legally. Had you had a tree? Right. And legally and legally as well. So that's another thing because for example if I'm attacked right here and let's say I stab the person and kill them

that's a potential charge against me. You have to prove that he was attacking me in the first place. How many men out there would be well how did you get into what were you doing in that room, what were, you know, what were the circumstances? So she was sure she didn't lure him there to try to kill him, you know, precisely.

So, yeah, it's wild. It's wild. It's wild. I've been so upset by it. And I saw, I saw someone else. Do you know, it's this guy that I follow, right? And I think about this, I think about him and this a lot, not in a weird way. Like, I just think about him a lot because I follow him because he always posts, he, he's a

men's rights activist. That's what's in his bio. And he posts, like, rebuttals the thing. And I follow him, rebuttals to, like, mainstream discourse around misogyny and male violence, right? And I follow him because I think it's good to follow people that we don't agree. And it's, I don't want to be in an echo chamber. And he posted something last night that was like, all we're doing is making women terrified of men. And I was like, but we're already terrified of men. Like, Just keeping quiet and not speaking about this and not vocalising how terrified of men that we are. But that's the point. They want us to keep quiet.

They want us to not vocalise it. Right. Sit there, stay quiet and put up with what we've been putting up with for however long. But we're already scared of men. This is the thing we're already scared of them. Hearing this doesn't make me think, fuck, now I'm scared of men. I'm scared of that man that's like walking behind me in the street. No, I'm already terrified of him.

Like, I already carry a rape alarm and, like, a little, like, criminal defender spray in my purse at all times. Like, I'm already scared. This isn't making me scared. Actually, I was going to say, what I love about the fact that this is all in mainstream discourse now is actually that I've found community through it. And I think so many women especially feel that way, right, is when you experience something, it can be a very isolating experience. actually hearing other people talking about it also it helps with you know cat calls when I started that and that's public sexual harassment and that's something that is minimized so much and just called you know it's it's not a big deal it's a compliment but actually through that

and when people sharing their stories it's always especially with young people for me is they know it makes them uncomfortable but then they have it dismissed so then they feel like they're the problem. And that's it. When we're talking, especially on platforms like this, you don't know who's listening and you don't know who's resonating with that message or who's finding their voice through you being able to talk about it. And for me, that's the most important thing about it as well and that men just don't seem to get. I think, and this is a huge generalisation, but women by and large, societally, maybe genetically, maybe because of the nurturing, I don't know. I don't know enough about it. But we do seem to have empathy in ways that society

doesn't encourage men to have. We are conditioned to care about people's feelings and to make sure that those around us are happy and comfortable. And I think that's what I found here. And I actually, I'm annoyed at myself that we're like however far into this interview. And I haven't mentioned the really, really lovely messages I've had from men. And they've been like, not by the couple by the hundred i've had that's great really good men in my dms being really nice awesome yeah but i am so amazed by them i'm so shocked by them i'm more shocked by them than by the and i think that's something that i can't that makes me upset is that the empathy just lacks and so when i do see it it's such a surprise do you know what i mean like when when there are

when there are kind men who do want to understand because it's like there's there's no acknowledgement for something outside of their lived experience and I don't think they could ever understand how from such a young age we are taught to fear our sexuality and the effect that that has on you throughout your life the absolute terror not just of men but of ourselves and our bodies because of what these men could do to us and how they could ruin us physically but also reputational. I don't think enough is done to talk about this on either side about the

adults that we are and how we became them, the fear that we have and how it's been the most enormous part of our entire existence. We are defined by our sexuality and our sexual market value, which I keep fucking seeing that term on the insale or whatever. But it's, you know, the statistics

that you were giving about school girls, it's like we have this from the very beginning. We have this as soon as we're cognizant, we have this sexuality thrust on us and we don't know what to do with it and now we're adults and we're frightened and we're confused

and we don't have all the answers but there's so little empathy for the fact that we don't understand everything and we don't have it or do you know what I mean we're angry, we're not allowed to be angry it's so fucking annoying that we're not allowed to be angry and of course we're fucking angry it's been so tiring

and so confusing but yeah I think it's like the and maybe they can maybe they can't understand maybe they just can't Maybe it's literally impossible, but the fact they don't want to fucking try really does my head in. And those are the nice guys. And I'm like, you know, there are the really nice guys who are understanding and I were trying to learn.

But there are the not all men guys, the ninth guys who won't fucking try. And it's so annoying. It's so annoying. If you're not, if you're an all man man listening to this, quite unlikely, but your girlfriend might have made you. Please try to understand the huge complexity of our entire lived experience and the toll that that takes. and why we're angry and why we're upset because it's completely rational like it's completely fucking rational

and just because you'd choose the bear like that just doesn't like that doesn't make it right like I talk about this all the time I'm like a broken record but it's like people not being able to fathom anything that's outside of their lived experience and not able to

listen to other people and just believe them right it's like well I haven't experienced it So it can't exist. It doesn't exist. I don't believe you. It's like people are saying it for a reason. Just listen. Just listen. It really isn't that difficult. Yeah. Except. It is. Apparently. I feel like we could have talked about this forever. But I've really appreciated your conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Can we tell the listeners what we've got planned? Yes. I was thinking about it earlier when you were talking and I was just like lonely old slag. Look at them, the lonely old slag. So the way that Farah and I came into each other's lives is after I was sent a message from a completely normal sounding guy, like Toll A-star, calling me a lonely old slag. I'm 29, but okay. So old. So old.

Passed. I know. I'm a lonely old slag, anyway. And I shared it on my story. And I said, I want it on a t-shirt. And Farah said, I can help with that. This is what you're coming. Can you tell them?

Okay. Tell them the plan. So, yeah. So I am a hobby artist, but I had come up, the designs that, you know, you've seen are based on a series I'm calling the tarot icons. And they actually came about from Andrew Tate's tweet, where he called all women who went to festivals, festy hoes and sweaty peasants. So my original tarot. cards were the sweaty peasant and the festiho. And now there will be the lonely old slag coming to your art online store soon. Love that. I've got a legacy. I'm so excited. I can't wait

to get a lonely old slag t-shirts. There may or may not be a bear included. I made my choice. I'm going to stay in the woods with the bear because it's what I deserve. This has been amazing. I'm so excited for everyone to see the t-shirts we will leave a link um to your online shop in the show notes we'll leave a link to your catcalls of london instagram page and people can please go and find you there this has been so amazing thank you thank you so much this has been awesome thank you so much should not delete that is part of the ACAS creator network