Should I Delete That? - More than a mother's rage with Mother Pukka

Episode Date: December 5, 2022

This week, the girls chat to Anna Whitehouse, AKA Mother Pukka. Anna is an incredible writer, campaigner and radio host, and is the founder of the Flex Appeal campaign, calling for all workers to be entitled to flexible working. This conversation took some twists and very unexpected turns, with Anna’s quick wit and brilliant sense of humour peppered throughout. Everyone could benefit from flexible working, not just mothers, and Anna shares how...Follow Anna on Instagram @mother_pukkaFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Well, I had a guy in the Daily Mail comments, he said, I bet you're one of those mothers that puts your kids in an Uber and sends them to school every day. I was like, do you know what, if the Uber driver would take them 100% I would be in. Who are those mothers? Hello. Hello. Good morning. You know what I wish, I tell you what I wish. we could do. Sometimes I listen to like news podcasts and they go, hi, um, welcome back to,

no, and how they go like, welcome back to should I delete that. I'm M Clarkson and I'm here with my co-host. Alex Light. And today, we're going to talk a bunch of shit. Yeah. I feel like we should practice that, say our own names, which is incredibly unnatural to me and I hate doing it. You know I'm on, um, news anchor talk, right? Like, I'm obsessed with news anchors on TikTok. Oh, I see, yeah. News anchor talk. That is not a, um, news anchor talk. That is not a news anchor talk. There's nothing. Don't drop that in like it's a thing and then look at me like I'm the weird one. News anchor talk. I don't actually have it. It's a thing. Okay. Hashtag news anchor talk and it's fucking brilliant and it's people getting ready to go on them to do like to anchor the

morning news and they're all stressed and it's scary and then it's people like doing voiceovers of videos in their anchor voice and I think we should hone our anchor voice skills. Our anchor voices. I'll practice that today. Absolutely fine by me. Good morning and thank you for waking up with us today. Oh yeah. I hope you slept well. Oh, I've read out of things to say. Good morning. Do you hate saying your own name when you go into places? When I went when I went in for a wax in the day, because I'm married now. I've taken I have two surnames

I'm a criminal I'm a regular criminal but that's technically I have two first names because I go with M and I go with Emily sometimes and then I go with Clarkson and then I go with Alex's surname

depending like for work I've kept my name because actually you know what I wanted to get into this because I got a bit of criticism for keeping my name because people always say about like if you hate you know you're only being known by your surname

so much why don't you change it and I was like because then I just become a man's property you know I haven't got me to go into this today never mind, I digress. Anyway, I went in to go and get a wax the other day. Famously, we talked about it a few weeks ago. I'm due another one, don't worry. And I went in and I was like, hi, it's Em Clarkson. And she literally looked to me and she was like, I don't have anyone by that name. And then I was like, oh, it could be Emily. Could be Emily Andrew.

She was like, who are you? You're okay. You're okay. You're okay. I was like, filling in the form. I was like, what name did I give you? And she's like, I, if you don't know your name, I can't help you. I'm like, okay, fair enough. I know what you mean. I feel awkward when I say Alex Light. And I don't know why I say it, feel awkward. But then I always say L-I-G-H-T afterwards. Because I feel like that...

Does it kind of break me off? Yeah, that gets rid of the awkwardness. I'm like, Alex Light, L-I-G-H-T, which probably just makes me sound like... Yeah, I do that. I go, oh, M, not Om, like E-M, not M. Oh, yeah, okay, okay, nice. Because if someone goes what's your name, I go, M, they go, what? I go, and they go, what?

I'm like, oh, I thought you were saying, oh, I'm like, no, I know. Do they say, like, oh, you mean Emily or Emma? Do they ever say that? People very often pick up, pick up what I'm leaving down, and then they run with Emma. And I'm like, I wish you hadn't done that, because it's not my name. It's not my name. It's not my name. It's not my name.

And do I ever tell people? No. It's almost people trolling me, though. They're like, I really love you, Emma, but, and I'm just like, don't love me that much. Because my literal name, when you DM me, says Emily, for this exact reason. Emma. I love that. Oh my God, my favourite.

I used to have a blog as we all did and the first word of my blog was pretty. Yeah. Like it was pretty normal me at the blog. And I used to get emails from PRs who obviously just hadn't bothered to check you and always be like, dear pretty. I'd be like, oh, thanks.

You're well, I'm like, I am now. Sparkly, thanks. That's like, you know, re, really re. Do you know how? Yeah. Yeah. So her name is Anne-Marie. lodge but re you know for re and so many people call her really think she's she's really and they're

like hi really re she's just like really do you really think that so weird isn't it like we're so tied up with our with our um with our instagram names with our social media handles yeah like you've made london a massive part of your identity when in actual fact we all know it should be alex like Paris. You said it, so I didn't have to. People think it stands for licensed dietitian nutritionists. It doesn't.

And it definitely doesn't. No. I would love to take it off, but someone has Alex Light. And I've DM them saying like, any chance, because they're inactive. So I've DM them being like, any chance I can have this? But unsurprisingly, they don't respond. So actually, I'm surprised they don't. don't respond and say, yeah, give it to me for like a thousand pounds or something.

Yeah, well, people do that. Yeah. My dentist, like, I got a new dentist after my face surgery and he's a really nice guy. It's called Neil. I don't know why I told you that. Anyway, he was emailing me and he sent me this email and then, anyway, I didn't know he was emailing me, right? But he basically said, I'll email you off the appointment.

He didn't email me. Obviously, it's me. I didn't care. I didn't notice. But when I went back to my next appointment, he was like, oh, I was trying to email you, but it wasn't going through. I was like, well, okay. And he was like, I was actually email somebody in,

Australia who has your email address but basically I have my email addresses my don't want her to get those of random email addresses but basically I've got a random number in my email address. I don't know why it's there I just because I think I went through all the, it's quite a high number because I went through all the other numbers and they were all taken so I just ended up with this but when the dentist had taken my email address he obviously took it without the number so he emailed this person and this woman in Australia replied being like oh this happens all the time but I um I'm not her um this is me, I'm in Australia, I think this is her email address and then gave her mind,

which is very helpful. And then the dentist went back and was like, is there any way she could get this email address from you? Are you active? Is it irritating for you that people keep emailing you thinking that it's her? Because I could definitely talk to her if that's something you might be interested in. And then the dentist was like, yes, I really tried to negotiate that email address for you. I was like, I really don't want it, but thanks. I hope you done this. Above and beyond. So now whenever anybody tells me, they're like, oh, I accidentally emailed that woman in Australia. I'm like, oh my God, that poor woman in Australia. She's probably like just done with me. She's probably my emphasis. That's so funny.

Your dentist trying to like broker this deal for you. I know, bless him. I was like, it's not that deep. I hate being emailed. This is actually very convenient for me that they're all going to somebody like the other side of the world. Do you know what this reminds me of is there is an Alex Light who wrote The Upside of Falling, a book called The Upside of Falling, which I've never read, but apparently is an amazing book because I get some DMs being like, your buck, it changed my life, it touched me, like, I get probably at least like one a day and I have to reply and be like, I'm so sorry, it's the wrong Alex light, yeah, it's called the upside-of- I did write a book, but I can't guarantee it or touch you in the same way.

Not the one that changed your life. Yeah, and I feel bad every time and I don't think they have an Instagram account, which is a shame because they're missing out on lots of nice DMs that I'm getting and taking. that there's all these people out there in the world that just, like they have your name and they're just out there living their lives with your name. I know. How rude. How rude.

Speaking of DMs that we got from strangers, I got one this morning from someone who's quite an active viewer of my stories judging by previous story replies asking me, do you follow Alex Light London? I was like, yes. Yes. A little bit. Yeah, I know of her.

I've heard of her. Why? I know why. It's because I was moaning about my bangs. And I think a lot of people said, why didn't you learn from Alex's mistake? But I don't, I can't even remember when I was talking about hating my fringe,

but like, if she's seen that, surely she's, I just, I don't get it. I don't know. Maybe people, it's like, like, willful a mission where they're like, just, they don't want to see us together. Like, it's not something I want to imagine or picture or really make part of,

of my life. So they completely just can't see it. They disassociate. They see us together. They're like, ugh. Skin pass and raise that from my memory. That is so funny. Do you follow?

Do you follow that? Yes. She follows me into, such an in joke, into fucking cubicles. Al did it the other day. You know when you go to a sort of spinning door, spilling door? Al always gets in my segment and it upsets me so much because we have to get in

spinning doors. For some reason, a lot of places where there are studios have spinning doors. I really don't know. I don't know the benefit. I don't think there's a benefit. I don't understand them. Just go through a normal fucking door. They're stupid.

Do you remember a few years ago? That dog died in one at the Tattler offices. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Horrifying. Anyway, I've got, I'm properly traumatized by these segments.

And you, every time without fail, get in behind me. It's way too much. And what happened last time? We froze it. We froze it because my massive belly, which I keep not bargaining for whenever I'm operating and moving.

And she whacked into the front of it. So obviously they thought somebody was getting stuck. So they stopped the whole thing, which is so embarrassing because then everyone's looking and be like, why there are two people in a segment that's clearly meant for one? Like, don't ask me, ask her. I think I just see my opportunity and I'm like, I know that that's the last thing she wants me to do. So I'm just going to fucking do it. Physical intimacy.

Woo! I'm in. I'm in. There's got to be a reason. There's got to be a reason behind these doors. Is it like a stack of traffic? Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Why do a company? use. Oh my God, so much for us, like, cutting down our intro time. It's now 12 minutes in. We've done no good, bad or awkward, and we're Googling why revolving doors exist.

Why do companies? Eight, there's, someone's written an article called Eight Reasons Buildings have revolving doors. I'm like, look, someone went to journalists in school for that. Expanded entry and exit passage. Revolving doors reduced street. Now, that's interesting. So, oh, that would make sense for Soho Studios where we record because they've got a studio on the first floor right by the door.

It's beneficial to regions with cold climates because freezing cold draft can't get in. An added security measure. Revolving doors can't be slammed because, again, that's not a nice noise for people to be listening to. Oh, wow. It helps handicapped people. Although I actually find that they don't because they always have another day. door for disabled juice. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's questionable. I don't believe that. Yeah, I don't believe that. Emergency exits. Really? Again, I wouldn't want to get in one of those in emergency. Emergency exiting quite difficult.

Get out. What? Get out. So slow. Do not get in my segment. I do not care that this building is on fire. It is one person per segment. You know the rules.

You know what? don't like this article. I know that someone's written it thoroughly, but they've said it's good for emergency exits, which I don't believe. What is the point of rotating doors? That's a more direct question. Revolving doors are a familiar site at airports and large department stores. They facilitate a rapid movement of people in and outbuilding while keeping cold winds out of warm interior spaces. Okay. They can also be very useful in access control because typically only one person can use each quadrant at a time. It's written now in black and my owl, one person per segment. You know me. Those the rules. That's in ScienceDirect.com.

I'm an anarchist. I like to break the rules. You are needy. Get close to me. Um, right. Okay, tell me something good or bad or awkward or something. I suspect we share the same bad judging by your stories last night. Okay. Is it my shit hair? Yes. Is your bad my shit hair as well? My bad is having to look at your shit hair No My bad And yes I suspect we're going to share this Is I just feel like I'm in a rot

With my appearance at the moment Such a rot I cannot style You really put some words in my mouth there But okay I feel like we're really struggling With our appearance at the moment I mean you're not wrong

I totally am but carry on It's what I inferred to you It's what I inferred to your stories But you said I was just sitting here looking at all pictures. I literally feel like a, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was literally lying on the sofa last night, like a fucking seal with a shit haircut, looking at photos of myself being like, really? I was so fucking fit and I had no idea. Anyway, sorry, carry off. I can't style my hair. I don't know how to style my hair anymore. A Daisy R producer put this video together and sent it to us last night.

And the video is so funny, but oh my God, I look. And I styled, I thought I'd styled my hair that morning. I literally look like I've been dragged through a bush backwards and then fall. and then backwards and it's unkind. The image of me was unkind and unfair and I don't know. I just, I don't know. I just feel like I'm not enjoying my makeup at the moment. Can't start my hair for shit. I don't know. I'm just going through like a weird rut with it. What about facial? Why don't you go for a facial? I could, I like hydrofacials. I could go and do one of those. I also like red light facials. Going to where I have my facial the other day. I went to Sovral, which is like the best place ever

and I actually feel like sad for myself that I'm sharing the goods because they're the best. It's super natural, like all like handmade organic, amazing stuff but it's like because I obviously have to have natural stuff because I'm pregnant, but also because I've got a face full of metal from my surgery. And it was lymphatic draining. And yes, I have been in a rut with my appearance.

But for the first time in loads of months, I have my jawline back. Also, your skin is glowing. Yeah, it is fucking glowing, and it's because of Olivia at Sovral. Go and see her. Honestly, you're amazing. Like, I know. Like a glazed donut.

Thank you. I actually know that. And I, you know, I don't take a compliment that rarely, but I was looking that comfortably. But yesterday, I was filming myself, actually, low-key, lulling when I was doing those stories last night, moaning about how I felt like a seal. I was like, well, at least my skin looks really good. It's because I went through a professional. Seals are shining, aren't they? So there you go.

They are shiny, yeah. And I feel like I've, because I had, it was lymphatic draining because I felt very swollen in my face. Nice. Okay. Okay. Well, there you go back to it. You have to be kind to yourself because you are chocker block full of hormones right now. No, I know.

So that's probably why you're feeling a bit like, ugh. I think so. Because hormones. You know, and you just can't, not can't, but like, I'm looking at myself in the mirror and I'm like, oh my God, I'm just like sick of looking at myself. Like, ew. You're just not vibing. I'm just not vibing. I'm just not vibing.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I'm the same. And the bloat is real. Oh my God, the bloat. Like, I look seven and a half months pregnant. Because of the hormones again? Yeah. Like, my stomach is huge. Congratulations. I know, but that's the sad thing. Let's decorate it. It's just like, yeah. It's just air. What is it? Air, water, poop. I think it's like fluid. I think it's fluid and air. Yeah, I don't, I actually know. I actually don't know.

What happens if you squeeze you really hard? Like a balloon, I'll just fly up to the ceiling. Anyway, is that your bad too? I just suspected it was after you're talking about your hair. I'm sick of moaning about it. But yeah, my hair's driving mad. It's falling out. I miss it a bunch.

I shouldn't have got the fringe. I honestly, I keep thinking about whether or not I have any ground to actually sue the hairdresser or whether or not I just. need to take some responsibility. I just hate it so much. And it's so funny because people keep like Fifi, I've been shooting with like loads this week. And every time I've looked at any piece,

and I am not a vain person. I've never been a vain person. Like I genuinely don't give a fuck how I look a lot of the time. And particularly with photos, whenever I've shot content, I've never needed to like see it back. Like she just takes the photos, takes the video, whatever it is, and then just sends it over.

And what I look like is what I look like, and that's fine. I'm not going to re-chute because my hair looks shit, right? Yeah. Or so I thought. That was the old me, whose hair never looked shit, apparently, because now when I look at, literally, I look at something, we've done something like objectively funny or great, and I'm just like, ugh, my hair!

I also weighed myself this week, which was something I haven't done in years. Like, I got, you get weighed at the beginning of your pregnancy, which is fine, and then I lost weight because of my sickness at the beginning. So I was kind of, like, aware of how much I wear. and then I got back on the scales the other day and I was like oh oh like and for a minute I was quite sad and then it turned into it turned from sadness to kind of like awe and amazement like how I've done that

it's such a short pace of time and I know it's not forever but that's difficult like I'm okay having a big belly but having like my legs look so different and my face and everything And then it's not just if it looks different Now I know the weight difference I can see how much That it is different Do you know what I mean

It's just a lot But I'm okay I'm right in the wave But like is it Did you wear yourself by yourself Or was it like with a nurse That you had to do with it? Oh I did it by myself

And you know why I did it Because I went and I saw the midwife And they said They were really nice They said don't wear yourself Don't wear yourself There's no need And I went okay

So what did I do Came home You went to wage yourself Yeah yeah Why? I don't know And the minute I did it, I was like, well, that was stupid, fucking idiot. That's good, though, that they said that, because I thought,

I thought that they had to continue to weigh you to, like, check. They do. They do. But, I mean, it obviously depends the hospital, the person, like, everything. I've just been really lucky. And then I was like, oh, I don't want to know. And then they were like, well, then don't wing ourselves. You don't need to, you know, don't worry about it. There's no point worrying about it, which was so nice.

So I was like, okay. And then I came home. It was like, anyway, I'm just going to get away myself. fun activity I know but you know what I'm actually like for about 20 minutes I sat in the bed

and I was like oh oh I'm like whoa and then I actually just sat with it and I was like literally why do I care about like my gravity pull onto the universe

like I've got a human inside me I got a butt ton of blood and like placenta and shit and also like I'm just surviving you know what I mean

I'm just getting through you are a lot of months pregnant yeah and it's fine and you know what even if I wasn't it's just like okay well it's sort of like fine and then it'll come off or it won't and then I'll just be fine with that and I just kind of sat there and I was like it really hasn't changed my life you know what I mean like I sat on the bed and I just put myself back I was just like I don't really know I this is exactly the same I'm exactly the same person I was before I found out how much I weighed so yeah yeah yeah

I don't know and I'm actually kind of impressed with myself with for the for the weight game like it's if I was a man like if I was a man would be celebrating like my brother my brother and his friends always have a competition to hit 100 kilograms by Christmas Day. Oh, God. Just from mass consumption. And I'm just like, wow, I wish I was a man. Yeah, I mean, like, you are very pregnant at this point. Yeah, it's fine.

You are bound to have put on a lot of weight. Yeah, and I'm just, I'm holding on to my fat. Like, and that's what the doctor said, sorry, that's what the hospital said as well. They're like, you're just, a lot of people, women, store fat in your thighs for breastfeeding. Because I had that woman the other day called, you know, like troll, like troll me and said, like, oh, you've got loads of cellulite or whatever. And I have, like, my body has changed. I haven't really had cellulite like that before. And I'm definitely a lot wider than I've ever been in my like legs and ass.

But then when I spoke to them about it, they were just like, that's like, that's literally where you saw fat. And loads of my friends who've breastfed said, like, it's like that, like, when you start breastfeeding, your body starts using that resource. Yeah. It's kind of amazing. It's amazing. It's absolutely incredible. yeah yeah I feel like I don't want to moan about it at all no I know no but I want to be honest about it because it's not the easiest thing I've ever done exactly and the thing is if you're feeling it

other people will be feeling it and it totally makes sense the discomfort with with watching your body change like it totally makes yeah and I think a lot of people DM me as well being like oh well just you wait like because it's going to be so much worse afterwards it actually oh my god honestly fuck off I know but they say like oh I miss my pregnant body like you you're making a a miracle, but it's like, and I get that, and I do get that it'll be harder afterwards, because at the moment, yes, like, every time I look down, I'm like, oh, but then I'm like, no, it's not a, like, it's a house, it's kind of cool, but yeah, but yeah, I don't know, I just, I feel really bad about it ever, because I'm like, I know I'm so lucky and I know it doesn't matter, and I know

it's a miracle and everything, but then I also just want to acknowledge it, because we do spend our whole lives being told that we have to look a certain way, and then all of a sudden out of your control, you just don't look the same way that you've always looked. and it's just the wild one. For everything postpartum, the bird's papaya, at the bird's papaya on Instagram, she's amazing and she's written some,

like, beautiful stuff about postpartum and postpartum bodies. So if anyone is struggling with that, like you've got to go follow her. She's a man, go back through, I think she had a baby last year, and she just wrote some really, like, her words are,

like her pictures are stunning, but her words are just next level. It's really beautiful. She's gorgeous. Yeah. Gorgeous. Let's barrel. through the rest of this because I feel like we've we've not really done our job here in keeping

things short and sweet, have we? No, no. Awkward. I chipped my two, my front tooth, eating egg on toast. What? No, you can't just skip past that. What kind of egg? Oh, boiled clearly. No, literally, literally, I don't know how I did it. Somehow, and I don't know how this happened because this never happens, but my bottom teeth met my front teeth eating egg on toast. Like, how why would that ever happened. I hate when that happens. I hate when that happens. It's horrible.

When they tell you, I'm like, oh, intimate. It's since you getting in my revolving door safe. Too much, yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Yeah.

In any way, so chip a tooth. What happened to the bit of tooth? Did you chip it? I mean, did you eat it? I swallowed it. How gross. Calcium. Nice.

Calcium. Bones. Yeah. Bone marrow. I don't know. Um, that's my awkward. My good. Oh my God.

My God. My God is that Spotify did their wrapped thing, whatever that is. That's like I'm doing too. Is it? I said to you like someone tagged me in something and I just kind of I was on the go while I saw it and I was like oh what's I don't know what this is and then you were like have you seen people are tagging us in their Spotify's and literally there's so many people with like thousands of minutes thousands of minutes poor fuckers I know so our bad is we're both boggly and our good is people listen to the podcast because we have faces. for podcasts um sorry about your tooth my awkward yeah what's your awkward right you know a few weeks ago i made a wreath yeah yeah and i thought it was really stunning and i put it up on my front door and no one stolen it and i'm really upset it's been up for well it was up it's gone now i've put it in the bin because honestly fuck my neighbours um yeah it's been up for five weeks maybe

four or five weeks and nobody stole it and i am really upset because i thought if i made a beautiful wreath someone would steal it a big honor it's not pinned down you know someone would see that and be there'd be like wow that's something worth having do you know what i mean people go to all the efforts like you know i was in the i was in the next door up here and i see every day Rangerover gone, Jaguar, gone. And I was thinking, I was like, any fucking day now, any fucking day, it'll be, I can try. Guys, if anyone, my wreath has been stolen. Alas.

You know what, though? Subjectively, it was beautiful, and that's all that matters. Objectively, it wasn't, because nobody took it. No, but we're not going to focus on that. And you know what, as well, I got home to the day and I didn't take it out. I made it sound like I took it off the door. I didn't. Alex took it off the door.

and he replaced it he replaced it he's put another wreath up he's put a shit wreath up that he bought from Etsy it's like why do you need to buy one when your wife is wreath making an extraordinary knob massive knob I love wreaths I'm going to buy one actually let's go and make one it was amazing

and I thought mine looked so good no actually probably let's buy one because mine obviously didn't look good it's like when you make a child and you think yours is a pretty child and then everyone else is like, oh, it's an ugly child, but you just can't see it. I think that's what's happened with the wreath. I think I made a lovely wreath.

I was like, wow, blinded by love. And everyone else was looking at it, being like, ugh, what a shit show? Like, yeah, like, what raffle prize did they win to get that on the door? Oh, unlucky. Okay, well, there we go. Yeah, there we go. Orcs.

Oaks. I'll probably be the talk of the WhatsApp group now. They'll be like, oh, thank God, did you see? Did you see Eminem. taken down that monstrosity on the door finally we can let our kids back out onto the streets again fuckers none of them stole it's like I can't just look in loiter I want to see you on the ring camera eyeing it up I didn't see one person in the words of the TikTok people you seem pressed I don't know if I even use that right I don't know I think we need to get you off TikTok just for everybody

No, I love it. I love it. Keeps me young. Does it? So, this week, we have Anna White House, also known as Motherpucker, who is the founder of the Flex Appeal campaign, which is really, really cool. It's a call for all businesses to allow their employees to do flexible working. I've learned so much from following Anna on Instagram. She's motherpucker on there and it's the flex appeal really lays out the benefits of working flexibly of like how the world could work flexibly and how the country could and how we'd all benefit from it. And she's coming at it from the angle of a mum that I think and that's how

it started was because she just didn't get the support you needed from the company that she worked at, which she'll explain. But it's expanded since then to cover like a plethora of issues surrounding flex for working and the people that require it, which is everybody. So we loved it. This is obviously now, God, I realize I shouldn't have talked about about pregnancy in the beginning bit because now we've talked about this is just a kid heavy episode

it's just a hormone heavy episode but then I've got to stop why am I belittling that? I believe it like oh it's such a silly thing that women talk about but it's not a silly thing what we talk about is actually really important and what Anna talks about today is really important so I hope you will really enjoy it's also fucking hilarious

I don't think I've ever laughed so hard in an interview that definitely wasn't meant to be funny Rimming Beagles was not where I thought we were going to end up in this episode but every day's a different day. Revolving doors and rimming beagles. Enjoy. Hi.

Hi. Thanks so much for coming in. I saw you only just... Wait, last week. Wait, where are we? Tuesday? Yes, last week. Yeah, it was last week

when we were talking about the madness of special K and how we thought bought into thinking we'd drop of dress size by just eating cereal. Which tastes like cardboard. I wasn't there for that chat back. feel like I can jump in. Yeah, it was the 90s and the thin is back in chat. Oh my God. Yeah,

which is, um, I've picked a bad time to get pregnant. I'm going to be honest. You really have. Just as thin comes back in. I'm ballooning. Blossoming. Yeah, blossoming. Let's, uh, let's go. I like that. The tables have turned and now we're interviewing you, which is cool. Thank you so much for coming in. You're welcome. I'm excited. Yes. Where should we start? We have a lot to talk about. So much. We were talking about you for a really long time before and about all the things we wanted to ask, but we didn't actually settle on Harry. We were going to get there. Well, what do you want to pick? Do you want to pick? Maternity discrimination. Women getting fucked over. Patriarchy. I mean, take it, take your pick from the quality street box of discrimination. Do you know what? I think it would be good to know how Motherpucker came about for anyone that doesn't know. Yeah, no, that's a fair question. So it started and I have to be very careful how I say this because, um,

I was working at the L'Oreal group and I didn't leave because I wasn't worth it. I want to be very good relationship with them. Always have done. Always will do. But I was working there as a senior copywriter and I got on with my boss very well. And I requested to come in 15 minutes earlier so I could leave 15 minutes earlier to pick up my daughter from nursery. I was like the trains. I used to call it like running the gornlet, you know, where you have to get, you'll understand.

understand this M when you you drop the sprog you have to go and pick them up from their childcare receptacle at a certain time and I got charged one pound a minute every minute I was late to pick up and that's normal that standard so you're not just got the pressure of you know getting back from your meeting you've then got the payment after six of a pound a minute so and then your little daughter sitting there with a pool patrol backpack on the last kid there yeah with Bambi eyes you know like why are you the last mom no you're You're costing her a fortune. They're expensive.

Yeah. And I thought, God, this isn't working and I need a bit of flexibility. And my boss, again, I get on really well with, she said, we can't give it to you because it will open the floodgates to others seeking flexible working. And mentally, that's when I quit. You know, and I went at the time, motherfucker. And then I thought no one's going to listen to that because no one likes an angry woman. That's another issue we can unpack.

And so I watered it down to sort of motherpucker. But it came from that primal, I forget, the emotional, talking about a visceral maternal rage that actually why can't you open the floodgates? Like people are drowning behind them. And they lost a really good employee. You know, that was the big thing for me. They lost somebody who was really talented. And I've almost gone on to show what I could have done for that company.

and I think that's a loss for the business more than me so that's where it started but my mum doesn't like swearing so it was motherpucker. You're a pocker. I spoke to something I know somebody very well who has just left her job and she's always admired you massively and followed you and I've always you know we've just talked about you a bunch it's not weird I'll take it she she's always cited the need for what you did and until her I didn't realize how bad this was because obviously I'm not a mum yet

But she's just lost her job because she took a job during COVID that she thought was going to be good for flexible working. And then when COVID, when she was working for her, it was fine. And then when they're all expected to go back to the office, she said, you know, I took it because I thought it was going to be flexi and I can't pick my kids up or whatever. And then there was just no compromise and she's lost the job. And then you end up getting pushed out, right?

And so, you know, before you have kids, you have your head in the sand almost. There's this quiet assumption that pregnant women will just disappear somewhere to Gilead. Like, that's how it felt. Like, you didn't question it. You just thought it would be different for me. Yeah. I'm looking at you pregnant right now going, I was in that position of naivity, you know, that, no, it won't happen to me.

You know, it can't happen to me. But it will 100% in different ways. Well, this is what terrifies me. This is what I wanted to talk to you about. Sorry, I'm totally like sitting. But I want to ask, like, I, this has been my biggest fear since wanting to get, or since being pregnant, but also before being pregnant. It's like, like, how am I going? going to keep working. And we work a very unique job in that theoretically, yes, we can keep

working. We don't need to stop in that it's very flexible. But my whole identity, my whole job is my identity and my whole identity is about to change. And I'm literally going into this like, oh my God. Like, terrifying. Terrifying. I don't want to just be a mom, but then I'm also like, but I'm also going to be one. But it's so hard for women because you can't just, she doesn't not exist. Well, you're dismantled biologically. And that's the, bit that never gets talked about. So you go through these biological shifts as a woman that men don't go through, right? You know, we have periods.

Then you go on to have perhaps a baby, if that is your choice. Then you go through the menopause, these undulations of your biology. And you are expected to work through it and man up, essentially. That was the historical way of working. Show up. And, you know, that phrase where women, you know, like at home, like they don't have work and then go to work, like they don't have a family. It's untenable, you know, because the burden of childcare is strapped to your shoulders.

Because quite literally, like my baby, she breastfed, you know, she needed the boob. And so my husband, as much as he's got mobs, and they are fruitful, they are useless. God, that's a really nice analogy for the patriarchy. You and your useless moves. You and your redundant moves. That's it. But I think coming back to, you know, where we kind of got chatting was I was posting about avocado toast back in the day. And I put online that day, I had 62 followers.

Like, sorry, but why is no one talking about this? Like, I've just had to quit my job through inflexibility. I have the same fears M has right now of, like, losing my identity. And I was right in having those fears because what was I asking for? 15 minutes of flexibility to return. a good employee it felt like I think in that moment

in the way that you have I think with this podcast and posted on your separate social medias there came a point where you go I am not posting my avocado toast anymore I'm fucked off, I'm angry and I've got something to say here

and I think there comes a point where you become an accidental activist or influencer or whatever the phrasing is people want to use to demean women online to undervalue and undermine this career and minimize actually women who have a voice outside of Alex and I can be really open the publications we used to write for you know that wasn't our voice that

was the voice of that magazine so here we are piping up so why do you think no one was talking about it beforehand when you were like why is no one talking about it when you were thinking that why is it because we had just like women had just been expected to I think that's right carry on make it work like this is this is just how it goes there was an acceptance and I think a weariness of no one had the fight in them I mean you are you know you splash down is going to happen at some point his baby is coming and I think you can't underestimate the vulnerability and it's a biological vulnerability it's not weakness and there's a very big difference but when you have a baby you are dismantled quite

rightly you've just raised a new we've brought a new life into the world and it's definitely not like pride rock and simba it's all I'm going to say but you're knackered and so you can't fight you know the women who have been pushed out at that point you already have a job in front of you that muleing little infant and you might have postnatal depression and you might be wondering why you're not connecting to that baby or you might be wondering why your husband isn't supporting or your partner isn't there. And there's a whole myriad of things going on.

And I don't think women had the fight in them. And then the internet landed. And there was a space, like with what you do, where somebody like me with 62 followers could go, I'm really hacked off. And why should I have to leave? Why should I have to be the one that steps back? So yeah, it started from a place of real rage.

And what you were asking for was so minor. A matter of 15 minutes, that just seems quite unbelievable that you wouldn't have been granted 15 minutes in order to, you know, help. It's just, it's quite unbelievable, yeah. Well, it was, so I trained to be a barrister, and that was where I, and I, and I, well, I started there, and I remember as at Devereux Chambers and the QC, it was his son who was the pupil. and I remember him saying to me when I was training and I was like 20 at the time he's like oh don't worry you'll have a lot of luck next year getting into the bar because it's sort of the year of the woman you know and I saw and I looked around the chambers and there were no women beyond 30 okay so it was pretty much that juncture of motherhood

I saw a career as a 20 year old woman and I thought okay I'm only going to be able to work really up until 30 here. really going to want this as a job. And so I ended up being a journalist. I mean, I started on practical caravan magazine. So I thought I was going to make a really big stand and then ended up just talking about toe bars for a bit. But, you know, my family didn't understand. But the optics there are so important. And I was a young girl looking ahead at my biological future that might have included a child. And I thought, there is no way through. And I had to sidestep even then to progress. So it starts

from a very young age. Yeah. We're fucked. It's so fascinating. It is like, it's the most depressing thing. Like, I have a friend who's staying in a career that she doesn't love as much as she doesn't want to be there. She feels like she's stagnant. She feels like her career, but she's 30.

I know she wants to have a baby, and she knows she's gone for other job interviews and her age has come up around the houses every single time, not so much as, hello, like how old are you and how many eggs do you have and what children do you want to make with them? But, you know, she's like, it's something that she's been very aware of. And it was so interesting watching her, who does a very similar job to my husband,

both of them going for a different job at the same time. They're exactly the same age. And just he's just like, whoop, just going to slide in here. I'm going to go and do whatever I want, as he should. And she can't do that. She just can't. And it's like, you're making these sacrifices for kids that you don't even have yet. Yeah.

Because you just, yeah. And like, I mean, it's mad. And then that's in London where flexible working is pretty good. And, you know, it's like she's in a progressive industry and whatever. but it's just like... It's often, to be really blunt, it's often women, I hate the phrase cock-blocking,

but it's often women at the top preventing other women coming through. Why do you think that is? I think it's residual trauma of having had to, if you think of the sacrifices women had to make off the backdrop of a world that hasn't shifted at all, but is definitely getting better,

they perhaps didn't have children. You know, they perhaps had to go through so much more than maybe we have to go through. And I think there is residual bitterness, justified anger, justified hurt and pain

at what women had to go through to not just smash glass ceilings, but bulldoze them. And so I think then there is that sense of it was so hard for me. So I'm not going to make it easy for anyone else. That's not right. Do I understand it with a bit of EQ and empathy?

Yes. But it's not just a, it isn't a man bashing exercise. It's very much anybody who's had to get to the top. Yeah. It is. Right. And I'm imagining when you're saying that,

I think what you're applying as well as women that have had to choose between career and children. Because that's been like, and I feel like in films as well, that's like a common trope, isn't it? Like, oh, I've got a, I'm a career woman. I can't have my, I can't have children as well. So it's probably there is some, there must be some. and resentment there for women who have chosen careers and that meant that they couldn't or felt like they couldn't have children as well. Yeah, and I think you think of the phrasing like manning up, grabbing in by the balls,

he's got balls, you know, it's all just very masculine terminology about around success. But I always said that with my mom, like my mom took me, she had a cesarian and she was back at work after she had me with, in three weeks she took me to the office with it because she could, like, had to go back to work because that was like how it was. And she has worn that like a badge of honour, as she should, because she, you know, like, smashed it. But also, so you think about it, it's like, shit. Like, that's insane. And now we say to her, like, Alex has, my Alex has six weeks paternity leave.

And she's like, whoa, like, happy for us. But also just like, things are so different. And she's not resentful a little bit or in a position to stop anybody from doing that even if she was. But it's actually, I can see that that must be fucking irritating. If you've had to be her and, like, countless women have been, whatever career it is, if either left their kid at home or just gone back to work or taken the kid or whatever it is and just like broken themselves in half to do it.

And then we have this easier time and I put that in quotation marks. It is annoying. I mean, like, please don't stop us having the easier time. Let's continue that they're annoying. I can see why it's for strengthening for people. Because you're talking about separation from your child. So she would have,

you don't know the cost of her not being there for you. Do you know what I mean? It's quantifiable. Yeah. So there is this sense of if I'm, I'd have only been there more, would we not have had that argument? If I had have only been there more, it lives with you as a woman in a way I don't think it does so much with men. I'm having my eyes open.

I'm getting like an immersive crash course into like the injustices that you hear about and you care about as a woman without children. But it's making me realise even in my completely privileged position of being my own boss to an extent. I don't know why I looked at you. I don't know. I'm your boss. Alex is your boss. I don't know. My watch is like, I don't understand. I'm not. I'm the boss. Sirisha boss.

You realize it. It's like, and I guess maybe I would have looked at mums before and been, I don't know, and just not got it. And even now coming into it, I'm just like, oh my God. Even pregnancy, I have had this crazy feeling of like having to just shut up and not moan. And even the people that I work with, you know, because I have been so sick. Like, July was a complete right. I've been on medication since seven weeks. like it's just been so rough and so much rough and then I thought and I've been so bored of myself moaning about it like I just I can't hear it anymore like it's too annoying like you guys ask how I am I'm like fine fucking fine I don't want to talk about it it's just too annoying and like I'm so used to it but then you know in my work I have to tell people that I'm not well I have you know

I can't I haven't been able to go at my full capacity and all I've thought this whole time is like oh my god teachers are doing this nurses are doing this people with front facing customer facing jobs are doing this and they're not allowed to tell anybody that they're pregnant because of some ridiculous societal norm until 12 weeks the apps recommend you tell your boss at 15 weeks I don't know what you think about this but it's like I was so ill like I couldn't I had to tell all of you guys so early because I was just like you're going to think I'm dying like you're going to think that something's like massively wrong with me but you just have to from the very beginning of the whole journey you just have to shut up about it to disassociate

with something seismic that is happening in your womb and with your hormones and it's yeah I find it confronting still hearing women feeling like that you know like I hear from women and it's this happened to me where you know we're not even talking about having the baby women miscarrying at their desk you know for fear of telling your boss that you're trying which will then perhaps scupper a promotion landing because she's trying and I heard from a HR assistant recently to give you context the depth of this she said I want you to know that this is still happening in 2022 I found an Excel spreadsheet with a list of women's names on it who just recently got married or engaged and she said I asked my boss

are these women are we sending flowers to them what's happening and they were women who weren't up for promotion you're joking because of the potential for procreation That is happening in 2022. That is one example. And I have to be really frank and transparent. I don't know what company that is. You know, I can't imagine it's made up. You know, I don't think anybody would give me that information.

It's too nuanced, too detail. But it's some indication of what still is very much there. And what you will face, that you will face the wall I faced at 20, trying to think, God, maybe I could be a lawyer one day and going, perhaps, my sweet, it'll be the year of the woman next year. God being big. Her fingers crossed. Still waiting.

And, you know, I had the marketing director of the bar get in touch and saying, I just want you to know that it's changed, it's got a lot better. And she's got a job to do, right? And I posted that apparently things have changed at the bar since I, try to get in and then just thousands of lawyers going nope no it hasn't and if you're talking about the transparency of this world it's not magazines where we have to ask permission to write what we want to write can now you know say what we want to say and get genuine responses and going no it's not changing and there's so much more to do yeah shit you're busy well yeah what are you doing here

The really sad thing is, I find really gutting is I campaigned for three years on my own and it was only when my husband joined me that I got listened to. Really? And I get upset saying that, but it's still, I was seen as this sort of knackered mummy fighting for to see more of her sort of weater books covered baby. And as soon as he joined the conversation, suddenly doors were open. at number 10. Suddenly, at round tables, we're including us both because we've got a male voice and I found that probably more gutting than anything else. Nothing had changed in terms of the

campaign. That's so gutting that it needed a man to add weight to the conversation, isn't it? That's really gutting. Yeah. But if I close my eyes, I can picture like the you that you're painted as. Do you know what I mean? And they're not the you, but like you just think like Sue from outnumbered or like any of that where it's just like she's always trying to do her job like I love that show but she's always trying to do her job but she can't because like she picks up the phone and the kids are oh the kids run there of this

and the kids are doing this and oh where I can't find my phone and he just goes out to work every day as a mediocre and keeps getting fired as a shit teacher and she's trying to do her career and it's like she can't do it because she's at home and it's just like that's not the storyline that's just the context to these kids' lives and it's just like because that's the context

to every woman, every family life Well, I had a guy in The Daily Mail comments, which is just, you know, the best place to read about yourself. And I can't remember, I was talking about childcare or something. And he said, I bet you're one of those mothers that puts your kids in an Uber and sends them to school every day. I was like, do you know what, if the Uber driver would take them, 100%. I would be in. Who are those mothers? I was like, will they?

Yeah. Great idea. Great idea. Can we carpool work? I was like, babe, I don't think. Uber would do that I'll give it a go but no I'm not one of those mothers

those mothers it's never those fathers honestly it's never those fathers it's just I can't even picture that father I can picture that mother yeah can't picture that father no

huh let's characterizing isn't it what do we think the only thing that's coming into my head is Motherland which I'm obsessed I love it I finished it the guy the only guy

yeah I can't remember his name that's like the only stay at home dad but they make him so tragic because he do make him tragic yeah but we've had this conversation me and my Alex about him you know he's so invested in in having a family and he's more and I don't even like saying this because it's like ridiculous but there isn't the word he's so maternal which I know paternal's a word but I mean it in like the yeah yeah he's so good is he nesting he's so good because he is beside himself like this is what he was born for this is what we talked about before like this is what he was born for and

in a way probably that I don't feel like I was born for it in the way that he was, it is. And, you know, we've talked about his work and whatever, and he's so like, you know, if this is what we're going to do and this, I'm really happy to take some time out and I'll do, and I'll be at home and I'll do this and whatever. And that's, within our relationship, that sounds amazing. It might not happen, might do, who knows.

But when we say that to other people, they look at us like, we're mad. They look, they look a bit sorry for him. They're like, oh, she really bullied you into that, and she, like, oh, gosh, gosh, She's so bossy. Yeah. Oh, God, what a knack.

Like, right, see, it's going to be ball and chain to your kitchen. Well, that's it. You know, no offense. It's quite a blunt way of saying it. But they don't just spunk and leave, right? So, like, some of them do. But the majority are brilliant dads who aren't represented. So that's the other side of the coin.

This old hapless dad trope. For me, in the friends that I have, doesn't exist. Yeah. There are men out there who want to parent. But society is still going. going, no, you need to go out and earn the bacon. She cooks the bacon, you earn the bacon. And that's how it is.

I heard from a dad the other day who said, I put a flexible working request in. And my boss said, well, you know, can't your missus do that? He wanted to pick up his son on a Tuesday and a Thursday, not much to ask. He responded. He was like, well, my wife is a brain surgeon, so you can decide which side of the lane you want to go here, but I'm in recruitment. So, and you don't, who's got the Tuesday afternoon? And, you know, be very clear.

You don't need to be at the head of the medical profession to be afforded of flexibility. But it was a really, really recognising, you know, what your partner is going through. They want, like, they want a dad. Like, my husband is an incredible father. And yet he doesn't get represented. One in 10 flexible working requests goes through four men.

Four in ten goes through. for women. So the burden of childcare is still on M's shoulders, not Alex's shoulders, regardless of how you believe you're going to parent and co-parent and balance this a juggernaut that is about to land. You hear that? You're a juggerna. Just call it a juggernaut. Just not to, I love that. I'm going to call a jugger for sure. Not to scaremonger. But then the other side of that coin I feel very, very strong about is while there are, you know, your partner, my partner, my partner, partner who are brilliant hands-on doing the to be honest doing the fucking job right it's 50-50 then there's the other side of it and I was talking to my amazing hair stylist Mary the other day

and she just said the most accurate thing she said I'm just done with people like clapping my flipping husband for doing the bare minimum like oh my god it's a fish it's swimming well done it's like it's your house it's your baby suck it up you see all these things on TikTok where it's like this guy going how to get laid by your wife and it's like hoovering stuck in the dishwasher it's your flipping house made like sort your shit out and stop posting that that's the way to our heart do the bare you know you're doing the bare minimum babe the bar of solo they trip over it on a daily basis so low

so you've got the two and I think it's important not to have like with women like with all humans and that's what this podcast is about nuance right there's not this homogenous lump of shit men. There's a significant group of men who are incredible and recognize things aren't okay as they stand. But yeah, there's still that, well done. He babysat his child. And that's not nice for them either.

No. Like I had a massive, I remember I'm a friend of my mom's. They left, they left a party. This couple left the party because, no, he left. And it was like, oh, he's going to babysit. And I was like, and I was like, years ago, I was like a teenager. I was like, you can't babysit if it's your kid.

like just pass and comment whatever he didn't talk to me for a year and I was like you were a grown and he was like 34 so you were a grown adult like and she can't do like all of this it's just like oh come on come on you're a child but you're right like for the most part I feel really it's the same thing as like feminism and feminism benefiting men as well like it's toxic masculinity makes men suffer as much as it makes women suffer if not more and like you these men do get punished for not for punished with not being able to see their families in the way that perhaps they'd like to and also like talk about the guys the well we ended up going out we've been married to they were brought up uh in an era where we were talking about this the other day

Alex Nats zoo FHM I wanted to be a flipping high street honey yeah you know I was like get the tits out for the lads vibes back in the day you know like I was like that that was my version of feminism And so they grew up on that And that was what the media was saying to them You know was feeding that And it's not an excuse But they're absorbing that as much as we were absorbing Oh let's slag off Kerry Cotoner on the beach

With a few rolls hanging out Their version was Abby Titmus Going, this is your ideal woman And so we're all I was trying to think of that name That's here, yeah I've been told I look a bit like Abby Titmus Oh my God, you do

I'll take it I'll take it I'm wondering why my husband's with me that's a lot more to unpack but I think you know there is a recognition for that transition we're all going through right

and I have these open conversations with Matt and I said I'm not giving you any sympathy but it is a strange time for men like he will now I don't know about you but when you're I don't know

there's moments in the home where he will choose to like put the moves on that are just not right like just really jarring and loading the dishwasher or like the smell of congealed ketchup in the air as I'm putting the forks and like rearranging the forks come up behind me and just do that weird grindy thing and I'm looking around he's like is that not okay it was never okay it was never okay just so you know and so he's sort of unraveling a bit and going okay that's not okay fine you're unlearning and I'm with him I'm learning but you know I'm not there to do the work for for him and I think that hapless dad trope needs to to be honest fuck off but it's kind of

amazing that he sorry that he exists and that he's doing this with you because there are so few men with platforms it's the one area where like you know you talked before about like you know what you do Alex with dismantling diet culture I don't know what the fuck I do but you know what you're dismantling no I know but I haven't got a specific thing that I dismantle so I'm still I'm having a bit of an identity thing. I'm unsure. It's pregnancy related, I'm sure. There's a lot. Don't doubt.

Okay. By once a week, 12, I'm like, what's the point of me? But anyway, I digress. The fact is there are lots of views and there's lots of, there's not lots of use. There are, you two have both got your platforms and like lots of women have these platforms and having amazing combinations. There aren't, there isn't that for men. They don't really have the people to teach them and help them on learning.

So it is amazing that your husband's doing it. Well, you've just got the Andrew Tates out there. Exactly. Pierce Morgan, James Smith. Yeah, Jordan Peterson. Yeah, all these helpful, helpful, helpful white men. And perhaps a lack of compassion for men who do actually want to do the unlearning. Well, I think...

Maybe compassion, I guess. Maybe compassion and a bit of understanding and a bit of willingness to help along the way as well. To make mistakes. Like the male version of the guilty feminist. You know. Right. And I think there isn't that equivalent. And I think, because so many men are so scared to say anything, you know, because, you know, there's varying degrees of hatred and rage to people, I think, in different groups of people.

And to be honest, I think white men are right at the top of that rage pile. So I think there's this ridiculous, and to be honest, if there's anyone here who wants to pipe up, please do, take the flack, get it wrong. We've been doing it for years, you know, the amount of flack. I have taken for wrong wording and I've absorbed it all because ultimately the end goal is, and this is for your daughter as much as mine, is I can't raise her to do her ABCs, to maybe get her GCSEs, to get her A levels and look her in the eye and say, you can do anything and you can be anyone knowing full well that she can't. Whereas I could say to my son, you can do anything and be anyone knowing full well he can.

So I never expected to be the voice for this, but I got to a maternal, visceral point of going, I cannot raise her for the same fool that I had. That is it. And when you actually, it shouldn't be a mother's rage, it should be a human's rage for this. And I took it on and I've taken the flack, I've taken the beating, I've taken the exhaustion, I've taken the knocking on doors. And there is a moment where I did say to him, like, pipe up. come on and he did and that's when I was listened to

and that was equally galling you know but I think that's it is that it shouldn't be for women to fix this that's the exhaustion right it shouldn't be for you to fix diet culture it shouldn't it was basically white media moguls

male media moguls determining what was in those magazines it was on them you know a lot of the features writers like us were pawns in that great big machine same with how women were treated you know on a maternity level

but we're fixing it trying to and taking the flack and the cost in terms of doing that so just any guys listening in or anyone here who thinks they have a partner who has a strong perspective a voice please just

get them to pipe up because there's no men having this conversation and this isn't a female issue. Yeah. Sorry, there you got to get down from the old. No, I love that box. Yeah, it's so good. And whenever I do think about these men, I always just think, oh, I don't know, it's just

not, because my Alex is such a great, he is so good at this sort of thing, he's raised by a single mother, and he has just a very, he's actually as well brought up in the church, which I think has been very, like, compounding for his, like, righteousness thing. But I just think a lot of the time when he says the right thing, people just think, well, she's made him. say that or like she's putting him into saying that or he's only saying that because or whatever and it's like it's so annoying it's such an irritating space so that it's just the men aren't empowered to just feel anything and so they've chosen silence yes because they're so scared saying the wrong thing but yeah it's again coming back to gilead we all need to work together yeah because right now

I'm not going to lie it's looking a little more gilead I think than anyone ever expected it's not looking Good, is it? Margaret Atwood, she really was the mystic meg of the literary world. She wrote Handmaid's Tell when everyone read it and went, oh, that's some dystopian world. And then suddenly we're in the pandemic. You know, you've got women going back to the 1950s, taking on all the caring responsibilities,

stepping back from their careers, going, Margaret, Margaret, Margaret, you've written the roadmap, what the flip is happening? Abortion is now illegal. They're like, oh my God, fuck. Fuck. Yeah. I was moaning 12 before about just everything

It's just, it's a lot It's a lot It's a big old change And all I'm going to say Emma is nothing more prepared for when they're then sort of three or four And I was in the bath

With my daughter The other day And she just started picking my tit up And splashing it in water And she's just literally going Dung And you know You talk about body positivity

And everything It's really hard to dig deep In that moment It is a BAP splashing in the bath water it just made such a noise that sounds quite amusing that was quite funny

I'm gonna do that to my own next time I have a bar yeah I do like to lean mine on the table as a little shelf you know you lean forward and put them on the shelf

I find that quite comfortably you know people like to cut their boots I like to just put them on the table you know you find often as well when you're breastfeeding or just feeding it doesn't matter how

being very clear It doesn't matter how the food gets in the baby. I'm here for a fed baby. Yep. Want to make that clear. Gin, tequila, whatever it was. You are going to get counsel before me. But you find often like debris in the little bridge between your two tits.

And so I found... I'm not breastfeeding and I find stuff in there all the time. Little snack counter. Yeah. And you'll sort of be wrestling around in there. You'll be like, oh, that's a nice warm raisin. There we go. Was it a raisin?

Either way. You'll find yourself just deconstructing, I would say. I regularly find pieces of food stock between my boob and my stomach. Before pregnancy, just like crisps, little ones. Like a crumb's gone down there and just sucked in. And there's a point you'll get to where you're so tired that you can't be bothered to take whatever debris they haven't eaten to the bins. You just think, I'll just hoover that up. Just get that little, get that down the gullet.

That's why we have the dog. boo-bear. She's like, I'm ready to some of a betraying for this my whole life. I never forget, when you, you know when you hit the point where you can't continue, you hit a wall, something. No, but you just hit something really bad. And it happened with, we had a dog and I had a young baby. And our dog had eaten, and I can't even believe I'm saying this,

we were living in Amsterdam and he'd eaten a tramp shit that had been laced with heroin. Oh my God. And so, you know, how much worse than I thought of a lot. And so I never forget coming home and he's tripping his tits off. And I had a young baby and he starts just like pissing everywhere, like a sort of angry drunk. You know, he's just, because he's tripping his tits off. He is an angry drunk. And I was with my three-week-old baby.

My husband was at work. I was at the vets trying to explain. And they were like, he's got high levels of heroin in his system. And you know when you're, They're postnatally depressed, absolutely broken, with a dog that's tripping his tits off. At a vet, you can't afford. And they're going, how did this happen? I don't know.

Nobody knows. I don't know. And you find yourself in these situations where you're like, I can't process this. Another time, the same dog, we no longer have him. He is no longer with us, Douglas, the Beagle, came in to the lounge. I can't believe I'm saying this. And he was there and he was just whimpering like, oh, oh, like that. And I thought, oh, God, what's that?

My 18-month-old was with her little tiny little finger, just gently sort of teasing his asshole. And he hadn't moved. And I walked in and these two moments that you can't predict in life, he was just not moving. He was obviously getting some pleasure from it. And I walked in and I just burst into tears. You know when you're like, I don't know where to start with this.

What emotion does this require? You're like, the hormones are here and I can't. So I'm just saying, you think you know what you're doing with the child. Then you had a dog into it. Yeah. You're going into... I don't know if I've told you this story. It's literally the worst thing that I've ever done.

Like, it's the worst thing that's ever happened to me and Buick combined and individually apart. This is, it's so bad. And I'm surprised we were even, like, it took us about three months after us to look each other in the eye again. But she once ran up at me, took a... jump to get on my lap but jump too soon so she wasn't going to make it so i was like oh okay i better scoop so i went into scoop and i went like that to wake her up and my little finger went into her bum hole i was like oh my god and she it was like it felt oh it was awful it was like you know this like salar like pepperoni thing and she like rejected it and she like shut out and she like

And she was like, oh, and like, disabird. And I was like, oh my God. I was like staring at my finger. I was like, this is so bad. And she was going to shut up the other side of the room for like the rest of the day. And we were like, she was like, I don't trust you. The boundaries have been crossed. Yeah, that was not okay.

I did not consent. It was one rule, mom. It was so bad. Throw in a child to that. All I'm saying, Emma, is expect, you know, they have that book. To cut my finger off. What to expect when you're expecting. I'm like, it doesn't touch the surface of what to expect.

You should rewrite that. And be like, what to actually extend? The other thing is when you get so used to having your tits out feeding a baby that they just, you know, as they should have always been, they aren't sexualized. They are mammaries. And so you've got your tits out, you've got breastfeeding bar down, you know, your raisins in your bra, you know, crying. Slapping on the bar floor. So I'm really selling it in, aren't I? and then you sort of go to open

flipping postmen's at the door and your tits are just out and you're like, what? What you got for me? He's just there, like pan, like white-faced. But they need to write men because the cabbies have done one, haven't they? Yeah.

Like of like stories from cab-driving, I'd say postmen have some tales and it's probably mostly breastfeeding related. Yeah, it's probably seen a lot of milky udders. My sister calls them the others. The others. The other side of the coin is your relationship so like Matt and I wrote a book called

Where's My Happy Ending because we were at that bit between joy of your relationship which you might be in right now and divorce you know no one talks about we're probably closer to the joy than the divorce yeah yeah we were closer to the divorce yeah and we didn't want to break up and we didn't want a divorce but we weren't feeling the joy and no one talks about the grey bit which again not to scaremonger But to be very honest with you, no one prepares you for the dismantling of your relationship in that time. You know, you are told, it's going to be lovely, it's going to go.

You know it's going to be a bit hard. But you don't know how. You don't know the specifics. And actually, all I'm going to say to you from what Matt and I wrote in that book was just recognize that it is circumstantial. You are not immune to however great your relationship is. You are not immune to the deconstruction that's going to happen biologically. you in your work and this is an incredible moment but it's also one that the world doesn't set you up for it sets you up to fall on your face because you're then going why do we hate him

I used to love him he impregnated me and I hate you you're like that's normal that you are feeling that and don't feel that that is irretrievable breakdown or something more serious you are exhausted you know there is a resentment of the fact that baby needs your tits over his mobs Useless mobs. Useless empty mobs. And one thing that really helped us, whatever point you're in in your relationship, because that feeds into everything that we campaign for

is this incredible fisherman. He's like 75 years old. He's called Derek West. And he's been married for like, I don't know, 60-something years. And he's the longest-serving fisherman in the UK. He fishes welks. And he looked me in the eye, and we'd interviewed lots of people, relationship experts, everything. And he looked at me in the eye and he just said, just make sure that you keep your eyes open to the community you're in.

Don't put everything on, Alex. Don't put everything on your partner because they will break. He said, like, reach out to your community. He said, when I fall overboard, it's all the young fishermen around me that scoop me up. And he said, just be together today, whether you're at the beginning of your pregnancy, where you've just had your baby, whether you've decided not to have children, whatever junks you're in, and don't take the rest for granted.

And I was like, okay, that's got us through. Because you will go through so much. His career will continue to flow in a way, if I'm being brutal, yours won't. You'll have pregnancy brands suddenly going, oh, we want to talk to M. You might be like, well, do you know what? I actually still want to talk about the other stuff

where I don't feel aligned with that. but it won't happen to him and the way it does things will change it might be incredible it might be a brilliant change but you will go through a different change as a woman and your partner and prepare for that

in a really healthy way it's interesting that you say all that I already have to sit with that a lot because it's like it's quite easy I think because my sickness has been so bad it has been easy at times normally it was not easy last Thursday it was very easy last Thursday night

to feel like this when he came home from his work drinks with the hiccups at 4 a.m. Oh my God, now I can't. I was like, giving me anxiety. I'm going to kill you. Like, I'd sat there and like thrown up the biscuits that I'd eaten.

And I'd waken up and like fucking heifer that I am trying to get to the bathroom, out my pregnancy pillow. And the stupid mattress is too comfortable, so I can't get up. And he's just hiccuping. I was like, oh, I'd have to really sit with myself and be like, okay, he didn't need to go and get the hook. Grow up, grow up. He was grown mad, he'd do the hiccups.

But also, like, I have to take that on my mind. myself and just be like I can communicate this tomorrow but right now it's like this is my this is my situation and you just have to I guess accept all what I'm learning is like you have to accept that it is unfair and you no amount of being angry with him is going to make it fair and you both just have to accept that and then do your best from there lead yeah lead with kindness there will never nothing will ever prepare you for the moment that your partner uh when you got your postpartum pants on and your tits are leaking and you're crying is lowering you on to the toilet and you're going, am I over the pan?

Gently looking up at the man who has had sex and you to have this baby. Am I over the pan? Can I go now? Fire away, pop it, fire away. I'll massage my perineum yesterday for the first time. Oh, how is that? Intimate. I tried doing it myself and look how long my nails are.

I was going to say, I was going to hurt. No, no, that wouldn't. You don't want to scratch gooch. No, I tried it. I tried it two nights ago. myself and I was like this is just sad and painful and then he did it yesterday and he just looked it was horrible it was like booed in the bum hole

it was just all bad no one wanted no one wanted and no one wanted it's like you know when you have I don't have waxes anymore she's just ample down there but I don't know when they spread the cheeks for the final rip yeah talking to you about your holiday you're like babe none of us can pay over the cracks with this conversation

you are down the eye of the storm and that's kind of what you've got to get used to for pregnancy yeah oh it's pretty pretty rank and then you'll get to the point where you have to get the baby out and it's suggested when you are literally the size of a house that his penis being inserted into is a good way to get the baby out and actually at that point you're so hacked off and you're like get it in you did this get it in to get it out

you started this you finish it yeah and that was like it's really hard to get an erection in this Contag. Get it in. Put it in. You put it in. You get it out. Now, do it. I don't care. Get it in. Fix it. Is that true? Yeah. It's true. Yeah. It's true. No, isn't it? That's supposed to be good for it. It's meant a curry and a shag. But when you're that angry, like, you're just so disillusioned at that point. Yeah, it's hard. It's not the great grounding for a more. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't sound like the height of romance. I feel like a nail doctor came up with that. I'll tell you what you need a curry and a shack carry in a cock

no actually no I don't think we do Margaret Atwood can we write a different book The curry and a cock That's a good pub isn't it Carry in a cock I think that should be the name of this episode

Carrying and a cock But also your redundant useless move Yes that's also a strong contender Yeah I'm going to struggle with this one We've got a lot of merch that can come off the back of this podcast. Oh my God, yeah, little, little, like,

a moop holder. Yeah, little, I'm imagining, like, a t-shirt, but, like, with built-in cups. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, like Jean-Paul Gaultier. Yeah, exactly. The men.

Yeah. Yeah. And we could actually put expressed milk or formula into them. Oh, my God, pump them up. Yeah, like, meet the fuckers. Yeah. I mean, Nibles Greg, could you milk me? imagine that would be very handy

wow there's been some turns on this episode if that's what you thought it would go like not at all we've also asked so few questions I have so many questions we haven't even talked about we've like mentioned your I feel like we've covered it wherever you're about to say

we've probably covered it well the Flex Appeal we haven't even named it your campaign oh yeah yeah and we've just like talked around it But I feel like we need to touch on that. Yes. Before we let you go.

Okay. Like you said, it's actually, you've taken it to number 10, right? Yeah. Number 10 down in the chart. Yeah. The context was in my mind. Well, it's sort of, again, coming back to where we began this conversation, it started, as I think all grassroots kind of,

campaigns do with just a moment of anger where you're not represented right it's that and so we kept knocking on doors and we flash mobbed in streets and started having people listening to us even though it was frustrating that it was with my husband um but yeah we are campaigning to change the law to get flexibility from day one for everyone okay so at the moment you've got to wait 26 weeks in a job then you get to request that request has to be answered within three months and then they can probably for business reasons that are really

loose and whimsical come back and go this won't work for business like for me like who can't afford somebody 15 minutes either way of the day they couldn't and so it's really set up for people to fail and the people failing are women

pushed out 54,000 every single year it's not a figment it's not some knackered mum piping up on the streets going please sir can be a bit of flexibility so we need that flexibility for everyone you know whether you have caring responsibilities whether you are disabled whether you have anxiety human reasons that you might need flexibility within your life and it's not just for mums I think that's the bit and I'm so tired by having to repeat that over and again because I'm always just categorized as the oh that's that naked mummy who wants

to fight for the women no it's for everyone because without men without Alex without Matt without our partners being able to and not they want to step up to the play but without them actually being allowed to by their businesses nothing's going to change and your little girl and my little girls are going to get to that point where their managers are redire rejecting that really loose request for flexible working around very real needs, like need to get to that nursery at 6pm because they close at 6pm and you're charged a pound a minute after that. There is no way out of that. You know, it's an inflexible childcare system.

We need those managers, any listing right now, to remember where they flipping came from. like think of your own mother like i remember i think where this all began was when i was really young and i remember seeing my mom aged i think 47 roughly just crying ironically slumped by the dishwasher having recognized that she hadn't had a career that she hadn't been able to do what she'd wanted it was assumed that position for her and I think she got to 47 and just realized that she never had a choice as much as she loves my sister and I she never had the choice and that's the only thing I'm fighting for is choice for my girls yours but also my sons and your sons and I feel deeply saddened thinking

of the women in our parents' generations that were perhaps miscarrying in avocado colored bathrooms and not telling their friends who were going to the menopause quietly and joking about hot flushes. Now it's a really significant thing and the women, just like my mum, sorry, assuming that there was no choice and that's really where it comes from. I think it started there. Yeah. Oh, God.

Anyway, back to Beagle Rimming. It's like, no, please. She's sensing your tears. Yeah, she's sensing the sadness. Yeah, she's doing a lot of that at the moment. Oh, that's really sweet. Like, she's got really cute. Do you want to help fix the patriarchy?

Help fix me. It's horrible. That's really powerful. Yeah. And, like, you know, on behalf of, like, so many women, thank you for what you're doing. It's amazing. It's all of us are doing now.

No, it's what you're doing. Honestly, like, thank you from me, like, right in this position. Because I already, we've had this conversation so many times, like, well, general people keep asking me, like, how are you going to do it? You're going to have help. You're going to do this, whatever. And I'm like, I don't know how I can't. I don't know how I can work and not.

And I don't know. I don't know. I'm genuinely, I'll be fine because, oh, you have to be. And women have been forever. They've got through it. But I'm terrified. And I feel so much. much safer and happier and more confident and empowered, knowing that the flex appeal exists,

knowing that you're out there doing this, that pregnant and screwed, you know, the March pregnant and screwed happened a few weeks ago. Like just even following you online gives me so much more confidence in whatever my next step is. So honestly, massively thank you. Well, just anyone listening right now who's feeling, I think, broken by a system that's ultimately broken, is I've written about this a couple of times and it's helped me significantly is it is okay to remember that your dog has just curled up next to me. She is a therapy dog. She knows when she's needed.

It is okay to recognize that work is your something. Work you could hold on to you. You deserve to do that as I wish my mum had been able to. But your family can be your everything. They can sit side by side and we're currently in a world that says work is your everything. And your child and your family, not even talking about children, talking about your boyfriend, perhaps your iguana. Whatever defines family for you is your something and it should be the other way around.

So just hold on to that, that work can be your something, but your family is your everything. And I'm from Holland. I'm Dutch. I raised one daughter there and they understand family is at the top. I came back to London and I had a moment going, okay, we've got it so wrong here. It's the other way around. And well, there you go. I've got the therapy dog here. We've broken down the shackles of the patriarchy.

Stay away from her bottle. I won't be fingering her butt hole and she'll be fine. That's just a meeting. But thank you so much, guys. And huge luck with the Juggernaut. I can't wait to get that like, you know, like they do like the Pinterest moms. Yeah. Juggernaut.

Yeah, I love the happy unveiling of the juggernaut. In a nice, like, brass sort of structure, it's going to be gorgeous. I'll send you all the photo when it's done. Thanks. Thank you so much, my love. Thank you. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.