Should I Delete That? - No such thing as normal with Bryony Gordon

Episode Date: March 21, 2022

In part 2 of their live episode at the FENOMENAL festival, Alex and Em chat to writer Bryony Gordon. Together, they talk about Bryony’s journey with Pure O and addiction, breaking mental health stigmas paving the way for future generations to talk more openly about these issues. As always, the girls discuss your Is It Just Me?'s, and this week they explore how it feels to a partner who doesn’t understand your body image struggles.You can find Bryony's most recent books below:No Such Thing As NormalGlorious Rock BottomShow timestamps:Good, Bad & Awkward - 00:01:36Interview with Bryony Gordon - 00:25:36Is It Just Me? - 01:00:55Follow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by George at Asda, check out their latest collection at george.comProduced & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

On October 17th, I'm an angel, see them wings? Don't miss the new comedy Good Fortune, starring Seth Rogen, Aziz Ansari, and Keanu Reeves, critics rave, it's haven't sent. Don't you have a budget, guardian angel? Kind of. You were very unhelpful. Good Fortune, directed by Aziz Ansari. This episode is sponsored by George At Asda, who hosted an incredible event called Phenomenal, and they've recently launched their phenomenal campaign, which celebrates femininity, and it's breaking the stereotypes. of what it means to be feminine and redefining it for ourselves.

On the day of the festival, we were both wearing Georgia, Asda, and I think we looked pretty cool, actually very cool. Really cool. I felt good. Yeah, me too. That dress got so many compliments. Same. I felt phenomenal. A, if you really did. I am my dad. George really does have some amazing pieces, like really good, and I had a hard time choosing what I was going to wear on the day. And what I love about the website as well is the diversity of the models. who display the clothes because actually, like, it's really not that common. No. They have different heights. Like, they have different, like, when we were shopping, you can see, like, the dresses on a small, like, petite person

and then somebody who's taller and curvier. And it's like, this is so helpful. Even to get a gauge of, like, how long the dress is going to be, for example. Totally. Like, love it. And size inclusive. So if you'd like to check out any of their clothing, you can go online at george.com. Oh my God, why did I post that? Ah, I don't know what to do. Should I delete that?

Yeah, you should definitely delete that. Hi. Hello! I see you there with your Peloton behind you. Thank you so much for noticing. Let's kick this off. Welcome to the Should I Delete that podcast. This is my good for the week.

The good. The bad. And the awkward. Behind me. You know what? Alex, I'm going to get on it. Guys, I got a Peloton and it arrived this morning. I didn't even do it.

I'm going to sit on it right now. I love that like, it takes up half of your camera. Oh my God, it takes up half of this room. You're not being subtle about the fact that you've got a peloton. It is your drum kit. Oh, God. I know. I'm absolutely delighted. I can't honestly, let's like, let's just barrel through this.

And then I can set it off and then I can just become. I'm a peloton wanker and live the life of my dreams. I am jealous of you. I love spinning so much. I am really jealous. It's really cool. I'm just, I'm a bit devastated at myself that I'm so late.

Like, you know, apparently the Peloton business is in trouble. Apparently that no one's buying them anymore. Like, I've heard rumors like a late surge from me. So I don't know. I don't think it's cool anymore. But that's kind of when I like to get in on a trend.

Like when we're right, right in the bottom. Love it. I know. honestly I'm dashed and it's a ride we're recording on St Patrick's Day which obviously for Alex is a uh not not you Alex my Alex it's a national national holiday so I think I'm going to call the bike paddy love it love it and I'm going to spend the day riding him which is Irish colloquial slang for shagging I feel like it's everywhere colloquial slang for shagging is it

yeah they always like they're at having a ride anyway so that's my life is going to be good. Love it. Love it. How are you? What's your good, please? I've had to pivot because my good has turned into my bad, which I will get to. So, yeah, which kind of, it didn't transpire really until this morning.

So I've done something so spontaneous, which as you know, is not like me at all. So Dave is going to New York with work. And I was just, I know, pretty cool, right? And I was just like, do you know what? I'm going to go with him. Fuck it. Oh my God. I am going to go with him.

When? In the first week of April. Oh my God. I know. You're going to be in New York. I know. Because I was like, this is the beauty of like we're child free, apart from Betty, who has a brilliant dog sitter who, and she literally loves being there more than she loves being with us. So I was like, why not?

I'm just going to go. And flights are like reasonable. and I just stay in the hotel room with him so I was like, I'm just going to go. So I'm going to go and I'm going to basically just, I don't know, like mill around. Like obviously he'll be in the office. So I'm going to just go from like cafe to cafe and like, I know and maybe wander a bit.

Oh my God. And I actually don't know anyone at all in New York, which is quite sad because I've got no one to meet up with. So if anyone listening is from New York and you want to meet, I'm there. So that's quite exciting for me. to do something so spontaneous, yeah. Oh my God, I can't believe you're going to New York. I know.

But for me, who's a super planned person and everything is quite, you know, I'm not spontaneous, I'm a creature of habit. Quite cool, right? I feel, I feel alive. What a hoot. What a hoot. You know, I ran a marathon there.

Love. Of course you have. Of course you have. What's your bad? Oh, oh, let's talk about my bad. which I've already talked about those on Instagram but it's just, I'm a fucking toddler in an adult's body and I went

for a little run on Tuesday morning and I was like, oh my God, I was really feeling my oats and I was drogging and I tell you what I was listening to I was listening to a fucking banger at Amy Studd sang a song called Miss Fit. Okay. And it's like, she sings at the beginning and it's basically all about like being like the cool girl

and it's like she's singing about like the hot girl at school and she's like so like you think you got it all worked out you got your hotbeds on you got your ass right out and I was like jogging and I literally was like swish swish like just fucking vibing myself and then out of nowhere my other foot just tripped me up like the fucking audacity of that and I flew I launched myself into the pavement I went up and then I went down and it was knees then it was shoulder then it was face and I just lay there like having and shit that hit the deck so hard just lying there laughing like a deranged person and you want to know the saddest thing this happened outside the chief station it was 8 a m the sun was shining it was a beautiful

day and not one fucking bastard stopped to ask you by the thing it's my favourite thing about living in london i was like literally there was a woman crying and she just walked over me she didn't even stop i was like get it bitch like have a good day i love london so much we're so ruthless um so i just picked myself up and just sat on the bench and i've got stupid stupid bleeding hands and a and a stupid stupid stupid bleeding shoulder and a stupid stupid stupid gray's knees like a stupid fucking child oh my god honestly and then i was such a like like limp home and it's just it's so sad so sad so so so sad just pathetic like my my little silly little knees are all just great um we need somehow we need somehow to get the footage of that well i know so since then

my instagram's just been gas like people have just been sending in videos of themselves on their ring cameras and like various cc tvs just falling i've rewatched them like 17 times i know it's so i might save them as a highlight so good but i'm going to go back to the scene of the crime and either because it was by the cemetery i don't know why a cemetery would have a CCTV but I'm going to investigate but then also there were lots of houses so I'm thinking one of those it's a nice part of town these people are fancy

you know what I mean they've got ring cameras so I'm going to go and ask any of them if they if in the background of them leaving the house for work it's just me launching myself at the bay oh god every time I think about it I love I think a ring camera is your best bet because if you go to the police

be like please can I have the CCTV footage from the cemetery or blah they'd be like why? I'm like, because I fell over and I want to put it on my Instagram. I want to show everyone. They might not be that willing to help. So I think ring your best bet. Yeah, 100%. There's something, I mean, adults do fall over so hard. People kept DM me being like, don't worry. Like, my kid falls over all the time. I'm like, yeah, of course your kid falls over all the time. Like, of course that happens. I'm a fucking adult, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's so embarrassing. But it's been the most

unifying and fantastic thing, you know, saying like, I fell. And then all my followers are like oh my god I ate shit here I did this I was dropping my kid off at school and I'm like yes you know the amount of people that have fallen over at train stations brings me immense joy because I think inherently we compare ourselves we've talked about this so much you and I inherently we compare ourselves so much to the people and we always compare up we always put ourselves on the bottom and it's so fucking unifying to know that all over the place humans are just going down. Yeah, know what I mean?

Like, we're all fucking disasters. Why do we find falling over the most embarrassing thing in the world? Why is it so embarrassing? Because it's so unplanned. Like, you're up, you're up, you're down.

You know what I mean? Oh my God. I remember when I was, I was 15 and I got a boyfriend, my first boyfriend, and you know what? It's like when you're 15, it's painful. Like, we'd never, like, I think we'd like kind of kiss

but it was still extremely awkward we didn't talk to each other just kind of like sat inside it was one of those you know like so awkward oh my god I went out with a guy when I was 13 over email I didn't even think I hung out with him

I think I hung out once and that's when he dumped me and then we were in we were in town and it was just and it was yeah we were holding hands which was a huge deal but so awkward like still hadn't like you know I think most I'd said to him

was like, have you got any siblings? Because I've got four. Yeah. And then I tripped. And because we were holding hands, the whole thing just descended. And he came down with me. And I'm not kidding you when I say,

we didn't talk about it. We got straight back up. We didn't talk about it. We just, we carried on. We carried on with the day. And we never spoke to each other ever again after that day. Horrendous, horrendous. Oh my God.

But it was one of those things where like, do you know, I couldn't even like, I mean, obviously I was 15 and painfully awkward. Like, I couldn't even see the funny in it. I was just so mortified. Like, I was like, ashamed. I got home and I cried. I was like, and yeah, we never, yeah, we never caught in touch again. This is so mean to put my mom on blast, but she reminded me last night.

She rang me, she's like, oh, darling, you fell over. I was like, yes. that she was like I think we have like a pathological problem in our fact I know we do like this someone pointed out to me on my Instagram it's karma like I have a problem like I don't instinctively when somebody gets hurt I laugh and it and it's something wrong with me fundamentally at a core level and I don't actually want to get into it but who I am and I realize like and it's obviously something in me and my siblings because my brother and sister and I were walking with my mom and my cousins and my mom within a little high

heels you know she's tiny And she was like, guys, do you want to get a cab to the church? And we were like, no, it's a gorgeous day. Let's walk. So we were all walking. And my mom was behind us. And I'm here my brother and was just a river line. And I'll fucking know where this is like an aeroplane with her arms out.

And we were going down a hill. And she started tripping. And she was like going down, but like with her arms out, tripping. She came straight through us and there was a woman with a buggy and she tried to grab the buggy. She tried to grab the buggy

and the woman was like cut off my dog I love that get off my baby. The woman was like pushing the buggy away so mum just kept going down like the buggy was gone and eventually

inevitably tumbled like literally dong dong dong dong tumble and she was just this like little heap on the floor and she just looked up and she was like I told you I wanted to get a cab oh

your floor and me and my brother and sister were like laughing from like crying laughing and my cousins were like oh my god Francie you okay and they rushed and I just like looked around

and I was like there's something really really wrong with us. My mom's like 60 and she's like in a ball on the fall. I think of my brother and since I can't even cope for laughing and my cousins are looking at us like there's something fucking wrong with you. Anyway so I deserve to go down. I deserve to go down time and time again. Yeah you do.

For the way that I treat the people that I love. Very quick story that I can't help telling that reminding me of. We are not the out my family not outdoorsy types at all like my dad probably would want to be we are not like we we actually grew up in the middle of nowhere but we like never left the house like there was a woods across the road from us and i didn't even know until like dave came back dave came to our house he's like oh my god we should go for a walk in the woods i was like what woods literally across the road and the beach and the beach was by us as well but hey anyway in an attempt to sort of i don't know like make us get outside

dad was like we're going to go climb this little mountain in wales and so we went and my mom like my mum had these prada loafers that she was so proud of and that she wore all the fucking time like slip on prada loafers that she just loved and so we went up this mountain and it was snowing and well obviously but yeah it was it was it was snow everywhere and my mum wore her prada loafers and um you make a lot of sense to me now I do don't I yeah yeah yeah and we kind of got like a few steps up and mum slipped and then which was funny in itself like already at that point

like me and my sisters were like crying laughing but the worst part was she couldn't get up she just couldn't get up every time she could try to get up she like just went straight back down again and people there were like there was a queue forming behind

and they were like it's okay we'll wait and my mum was like no go go because literally every time she got up and I was like I think we all like genuinely like actually wet myself

it was just the like the best thing And my dad was like, well, this serves you right and your bloody Prada loafers, like, as you get his like hiking boots going up to the top. That's, that's, yeah. The best day of my life still was Halloween 2016 because Alex came out the shower and in our old flat, the bathroom was on a different floor

to the kitchen, there was no towel. So we ran, tried to do the kind of like, like, well, we need to get a towel so we're soaking wet. And he said, on the top step. And he fell. naked. Oh, no.

I think instinctively he had to, like, you know, grab his bobbies. So he was like, as he was going, he was like, what? Oh, honestly, every time I'm sad, I just think of that. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it's a best day in my life. I have something wrong with me. That is very funny, though.

And someone doesn't actually hurt themselves. It's very funny. Oh, my God, even if people do hurt themselves, I have a problem. So my bad, which was going to be my good, but it's now actually my bad, is that basically I keep seeing people with tortoise shell nails on Instagram and I'm like, oh my God, that's so cool. I want it myself. So I've done loads of research, but like, where can I go and get it done?

Anyway, I found a place and I was like, you know what? While I'm getting tortoise shell nails, I might as well get like acrylic, not acrylics. They're called like hard gels, but they're extensions. So I booked appointment. I was so excited and I was going to be like, it's my good for this week. I can't wait, I'm so excited. Well, you can see them now. Like, obviously, you guys can't see them.

I mean, this is, this is the wrong channel to be saying, look at my nails, isn't it? Um, podcast. But, um, they're horrendous. They're absolutely horrendous. They do not quite cool, but I can't do anything. I can't type. My messages have been incoherent today.

They're incomprehensible. Can't type for the life of me. I can vouch for that. If your period arrives, you're in trouble. Why? I don't know. You can, you can, you can, you know, Or you go tampon, I didn't even think about that.

I didn't even think about that. Because I always wonder how people with the really long ones wipe their bottoms. Well, I was worried about picking up the dog shit today, but it was fine. Didn't get up my hands this time. Maybe there's something to be said for the nails. So, and I'm really annoyed because it actually cost me an obscene amount of money. And to be fair, they do look really cool, but I just got, I can't, I can't function. And I'm not a good person with functioning when it's not good, when I'm not comfortable.

I'm finding it very difficult. I'm stressed and I'm like, help. I've got these like talons and I don't like it. I just want my normal nails back. How long did they do? Like three and a half hours. Which is like, because it's not even like, oh, it was a nice time because I got to chill out. I didn't because I was anxious the whole time because I was like, I'm late for something.

Like it shouldn't be taking this long. Anyway, so. We've learned a lesson. It became my bad. Don't get. No, they do. they do they do look nice but like I'm really pleased you've talked me out of it

I'm pleased you show me the reality because I might have just had an insta moment have been like oh my god they look great and then I'd have gone no no just get your normal I'll keep these pathetic little stubbies yeah there is something to be said for a nice short nail it's practical practical your dad

would be dead proud of you that is not Prada loa attitude I'm telling you it's not high that is a good attitude that is isn't it yeah I'm wearing a pair of Prada loafers and I want to take them off. And you can't get back up again. And I can't get back up again. I'm going to go to the nail salon

and ask them to far them down for me. Anyway, awkward. We have a joint awkward. We have a joint awkward. It happened last night. I'm actually mortified for us. On so many levels, the awkward thing alone could be the fact

that we went out for dinner last night at 5.15. It was a road time. It was an exceedly early dinner. And, yeah, I mean, it was delicious. But that's not the all. in and of itself, but it is relevant, because we got there at 5.15. I got there at 515. Someone was having a nails done for three and a half hours. So you were late, which was fine. But we only

had the table for 90 minutes. Anyway, they asked us to leave a lot. A lot. Any dessert? Can we bring you the bill? Can you pay the bill? They were very polite, but they were quite... We do need the table. We do need the table. Yeah. We're really pleased you've had a nice time, but please get the fuck out of our restaurant. Yeah, it turned from like politely ushering us out to being like, can you actually just leave down. Yeah. So, but we had only just finished. Like we hadn't outstayed our welcome. I don't really think potentially. Well, we had, but maybe a little bit. Anyway, yeah. We were being ushered. We were feeling the pressure. And we were with Gemma, Gemma stars as well, who you should follow. She's really cool. So the waitress, I think the last

interaction we had with her, she was like, okay, like, coming up, I think she was like, 20 past seven. table at 7.30, fine, whatever. We're like, okay, all right, okay, we're getting in that. We're doing. And then we, I don't know who got the tap on their shoulder, or maybe it's both of us. Well, my bag, my, this is so me, fuck's sake, I'm such a mess. My, my bag

had fallen off the bench and it was all over the floor. Like, I had like, tampons and headphones and poo bags all over the floor. So I was like lying across the bench with my arm underneath the table, trying to gather all my fucking shit up. And I've really got some shit in my handbag. I was like,

Oh, God, this is just so embarrassing. And I was trying to get my shit. And you were putting your coat on. And then this girl came up to the table and was like, just before you go, and we both turned around. And we were like, we're going, we're going. Like, as fast as we can, we're leaving. And this girl was like, no, no, I just want to say, I love the podcast.

I love the podcast. And we were like, oh, God. Oh, God. Because it happened, like, it actually so much went through my head because with a tap on my arm, I turned around and I was like, we're leaving, we're leaving, we're leaving, because I was like, come on, you've told us a million, we are leaving, it's not 9-30, it's not 7.30 yet, give me a break. So I was like, we're leaving. And then she said, just before you leave and I went, oh my God, did my card not go through? I thought, like, I thought my card

had got declined or something, like just before you leave. And then she, and then she was like, oh, no, I love your podcast. I was like, oh my God, she wasn't even the waitress. Like, I'm just like, like, we're leaving. Oh, did my car not work? And then I was like, oh my God, thank you so much. Such a gear change. We're fucking going. Oh my God, oh my God, no money. Oh my God, thanks.

Just. Tell me you're anxious without telling me you're anxious. Oh my God, I know, I know. Also, I feel like you, got I make it sound like such rancas. Like, you handle that really well when people say that. But I don't. I'm like a flustering, like bumbling mess.

I'm like, oh God, thank you. Like, where are you from? Like, I just don't know what to say. Also, why? Why? I'm always so shocked of people like the podcast. I'm like, oh my God, really? Do you? Wow. Why? Tell me exactly why. Actually, oh, quick shout out to a girl on the tube. I sat next to her on the tube and then she tapped me on the shoulder and again I was like, what? Like what? Is my headphones too loud? Like what? And she was like, oh, I just wanted to say I love the podcast and I was like, oh my God, thank you so much. And I was like, oh, my God, thank you. Like, do you have any dogs? Like, oh. This is what I've been telling you, because I leave the house all the time. So it happens to me quite a lot.

Yeah, I don't leave the house. I know, people are like, oh, my God, I'm listening to the podcast, and I'm like, oh, my God. And I still die every time, and I always tell you. And you're like, why does no one tell me that? And I'm like, because you don't leave the house, like, go out into the world. These people are here. Anyway, interview. Yeah, oh my God, guys, can I, can I, can I, can I, can I be really lame and just as I use this?

Please. So, today's interview, this is the second part of the George Astor phenomenal festival that we were part of for International Women's Day. We did two live interviews that day. The first one was last week's episode with Candice Brathwick. And this episode means so much to me. Like, I know we touched on it in the episode, but I'm just going to be really lame and tell you how much this guest means to me.

When I first started, like, being me, like, when I first, like, got online and started writing and, like, trying to build a career, I was completely obsessed with Brian. completely obsessed with brianie gordon i i've loved her column for ages and she wrote her first book the wrong knickers and i was just such a fan girl and i ended up uh she agreed to meet me um to like give me career advice and i like it was still like it was such a terrifying day for me because i was so obsessed with this woman and she she said she'd meet me and i went to the telegraph offices and I was like 20 and I was like oh my god that is so nice of her I so so nice of her and you know that just epitomised with brian me to be honest she's got the biggest heart she's the most

supportive and gorgeous and wonderful human being and I've always just had so much respect for her and I never got over that and I and I always want to be able to be that for other people now but she was so it was such a special thing to me that she did that and I've just respected and admired her and ever since well since long before anyway And we've become friends, which I feel very grateful for. But I just love her so much. And I just think what she does is so important. And the steps that she's made, or the changes that she is made by being who she is and by being so vulnerable and by opening up about her mental health.

If you don't know, Brianne, she's a telegraph journalist and an author. And she's written so many books, but she's spoken so openly about addiction, about alcoholism, about her life with her. she's done so much in the mental health space basically to whether she meant to or not but to destigmatise mental health and I just think she needs to be so proud of what she does and I'm so proud to know her and I'm so gasped that she's here. I was a bit of a fan girl wasn't I was a bit sad no you were but it was really nice like you can tell that you guys had like a genuine connection yeah she was she was really brilliant I really like it was like her books are amazing. Like they are amazing. So, so good. She's just a

brilliant. She is a brilliant writer. Like she's, she's the writer I want to grow up to be, for sure. Yeah. Let's get Briannie up. Here you goes. Without further ado, Briney Gordon. Without further ado. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for coming. And Brini, thank you so much for being here. I'm going to start this by being really uncool. You can't be uncool around me.

She can. Watch me try. If you don't know who Brian is, she's a journalist and she's so brilliant, she writes for the telegraph, but you've also written a number of amazing books over the years. And I remember reading her first book and being like, I need to be this chick's friend.

Like, she's so cool. And like, fast forward, like, now, finally. I got it. We're friends. And I'm so excited to do this interview. It's a really full circle moment for me because I said this to Alex, my fiancé Alex, this morning.

I was like, this is probably the coolest day of my career because I get to interview someone I admire so much. You interviewed Prince Harry for a really big interview a couple of years ago. This is my Prince Harry, basically. You're my Prince Harry. I'm just going to take that compliment because I would be like, oh my God, you've really picked me up.

But yes, I am like Prince Harry in many ways. can I just say it's so nice to see because I remember meeting for a coffee with you like six or seven and just chatting and it's really nice to see it's just so nice I just I'm so excited about this kind of phenomenal sorry I didn't even plan that sort of like generation of young women who because when I wrote that book the wrong knickers like I was shamed in the press about it the daily male being like because this woman got no shame and I'm like I have so much shame. That's why I wrote this book.

But it's so good that now it's just, it's so, you know, I just, I get so excited for my daughter. But also, it is, it is really exciting. And that book, like the wrong knickers, and then what you've done afterwards, I mean, it's such a good book. Like, it's, I feel like it's such a coming of age, like, and I, and, but what you've done subsequently has been so cool

because Brianne wrote this book, and I guess this is our first question, really, because you wrote the wrong knickers, and it was, like, crazy. it was this book about your 20s and they were mad and they were fun and terribly I was looking at it being like this woman's life just, it's so fun

this is what I imagine London and journalism to be but then a couple of years later you bought out another book called Mad Girl and it kind of told the same story of your life but from a very different perspective and that was with mental health and with addiction and with sort of all the things

I guess they were there in the first book but you hadn't labelled that you hadn't, you know, I don't. So the wrong knickers came out in 2014 and I felt kind of safe to write a book about my crazy 20s because I wrote it after my daughter was born and I thought, oh, I'm in this kind of safe place now because I had very much that like very old fashioned, terrible, horrible view that once I had a kid and I got married, like all my mental health issues would just disappear and that wasn't the case.

And I sort of, but I also couldn't talk about it. I couldn't talk about what was actually behind all this chaos, which was, I mean, I didn't even know at the time I was an alcoholic. You know, that came much later after I brought a mad girl out, but it was this experience with obsessive compulsive disorder since I was a very young, you know, young age in the early 90s. And, you know, I heard so often about people talking about OCD and they'd be like, oh, I'm a little bit OCD.

And I'd be like, and then they'd say, oh, you should see my sock drawer. I'd be like, fuck off. Like, I don't have a sock drawer. Do you know what I mean? Like, my husband always jokes. He's like, I wish you had the good type of OCD. There's no good type of OCD. But I really came up for me after my daughter was born and after that book came out.

And I had a complete breakdown with the OCD. And I have a type of OCD called Pure O, which involves intrusive thoughts. So I always describe OCD as your brain refusing to acknowledge what your eye can see. So be it that your hands are clean or that the oven is off. And Puro revolves around thoughts. So, like, we've all had that thought. What if someone, like, handed me their baby, and I just threw it on the floor?

I hope we've all had that thought, and it's not just me. But, like, someone with P.O. Oh, will be so distressed by the thought that they will ruminate on it to check they're not the thought. And so I had a type of OCD that made me think I might be a serial killing pedophile, which, funny enough, you don't bring up... It's not like the sock drawer type, do you know what I mean? And I'm not a serial killing pedophile, but I would say that.

I can't even sit here and joke about that and it was amazing but anyway I had this complete breakdown and my brain started to tell me that I might have done something terrible to my own child and blanked it out in horror and I knew then I had to write about it so that was where Malga came out

it was like if you also have this type of OCD please tell me let me know because I'll know I'm not mad or I am mad and that's okay but I'm not bad and that spun out into this whole different like mental health place that book came out in 2016 and it's led to like so many things like interviewing prince harry but also to me realizing i was an alcoholic and i needed to get sober and you know it's it really did

change my life which sounds because i met my people you know yeah you know that hedonistic chaos of your 20s was that do you think an attempt to kind of stifle your mental health issues to to bury them a little bit totally like i think when i i had no self-esteem. I had no, I had no sense of who I was. I was tormented by these intrusive thoughts and, you know, so alcohol and drugs for me were, you know, it was like putting on a sparkly dress and I could pretend for a bit that that was not what was going on. Of course, the next day it would all come back and it would be, you know, ten times worse. But it didn't, the next day, I was in so much kind of pain and high anxiety that the next day wasn't, you know, you

I couldn't even consider the next day. All I got about was now. And so, yeah, the chaos. But also, and this is very common in people that have addiction issues. Like, I, you know, I remember when I washed up in rehab and the chief council, I was lucky to be able to go to rehab, you know. And the chief council was like, you've literally turned your alcoholism into a career. And if I read the wrong knickers back, I go, oh, I can't believe I wrote that.

I can't believe I thought that was fun. You know, like, is it, you know, knowing what I know now about, why, where it came from and how sad I was for a lot of that time, you know? I don't know how you have the time, honestly, but you write so many books. And it's like you've documented each chapter of your own life, which is an extraordinary thing to do. And I wonder, because you've, you after you did Mad Girl, you've also wrote Glorious Rock Bottom. And I wonder if, if you're experienced with writing Mad Girl and writing, it's like it's like you're writing your life in a way. And I suppose, do you think that,

that they informed your own realization, you know, getting it all down. I guess it's like mass journaling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're really confronted with it. Do you think that led to it? I think that for me, a lot of the writing was out of, it didn't, like, lots of people come up to me and they're like,

oh, thank you, that book helped me so much. But what helped me is like having it down and people reading it and people identifying with it. And also what is behind everything I do is that I, you know, I always say this. The thing all mental illness and all mental health issues have in common from sort of anxiety through to psychosis and beyond is that they lie to you.

You know, it works by isolating you and by telling you're alone and telling you that you're a freak, and that's just not true. And for me, writing this down was very much a way of, you know, finding other people like me. And it was kind of the only weirdly, because that was my, you know, I was a trained journalist and a newspaper, so I was doing, And so it all started with me writing a column about my OCD and the response was unbelievable

and it was like, I'm not a freak, you know, I am not. And that was really the start of my recovery and I think that really is the start of recovery from all people. I always remember hearing a quote which was that shame dies when you expose it to the light and it's so true, you know, when you get it out there and no one runs away screaming, do I mean? Or calling the police and you're like,

oh, it's going to be okay. because stuff wants us in our heads. So for me, writing it down was, it's kind of the only thing I know how to do as well is, right. Like, I don't have any other skill set at all. Can't, like, no, I can't drive. I can't do anything useful. Right.

And people are like, oh, if there was an apocalypse, what would you do? And I'm like, tweet about it. You know, like, I don't have any other skill set. Like, it's always been what I've done since I was little, I guess. Yeah, it's, but I've definitely feel like, I've reached the end of writing about myself because my life is so, I mean, apart from being here now with all of you guys today,

which is like the most exciting thing that's happened in two years. Like it's probably the first time I've been in a room of people I haven't like given birth to or been married to. But my life is really quite boring, which is great. I love that it's boring. But I think I've done as much as I can on that front. And that's, that's

a good thing, you know. Yeah. I really love what you were saying there about shame, not being able to exist in the light. And that's something I think about a lot, because I think we are so unaware of that, aren't we? When we're shrouded in our own shame, we're so unaware that actually there's a really simple... I'm not trying to minimise it or, you know, be reductive,

but like releasing it is just so powerful, isn't it? And yeah, I really like that because it just... It's something that really resonates with me. I think we spend so much of our lives feeling shame around things. And feeling other? Yeah, right. I'm the worst. I'm the only person that's...

done this. Do you know I was listening there's an amazing woman called Tara Brack who's like very she's a sort of meditative and I'm not very good at meditate. I can't even say the word right but she talks about I was listening to a podcast she did and she was talking about how there's a reason that we other ourselves and we feel shame and it's actually an evolutionary thing so when we first came to be on the you know the plains of Africa it was actually useful to slay ourselves because if we, you know, we needed to keep ourselves separate from a, like, a rival tribe who might kill us or a tiger, no, there are no tigers in Africa, they're a lion, do you what I mean? But that isn't useful to us, of course, now. And so we've evolved from I to

we. So if you think of illness, I, wellness, I, wellness, we. And so sometimes I'm just reminding myself that that response in my brain of I'm a freak is actually just like a limbic response that is so much bigger than me or any of us in this room generally it goes back thousands and thousands of years and I find that kind of oddly comforting and right-sizing you know and I think that's so sorry I'm something that's been

incredible social media as well is realizing that there are people out there who are just like you you know you're unlikely to be the first to have felt this no and this has been and you've been You know, it's so interesting, because when I hear so often, people say, well, do you think there's an epidemic, you know, it's a new epidemic of mental health issues. I'm like, no, mental, you know, the issues and the circumstances surrounding it has obviously changed, but we just didn't talk about it.

You know, suicide was illegal until 1961. You know, it was such, it was such a shameful thing. I didn't know that. Yeah. I mean, I don't know how they police that. I'm going to say. But it was, you know, it was, and that's why there's a kind of drive to, remove the word committed so we talk about dying by suicide because you know it's not a crime but

you know we had such it's only really relatively recently in history that we have any sort of awareness of that you know all i always think mental illness is like your brain's skewed way of trying to like help you cope with life and you know when we we accept that other organs in our body will go wrong so why can't we accept that our brains will yeah you talked about sharing particularly like having about having a CD you wrote about it in the telegraph and you haven't shied away from discussing your own mental health addiction others mental health like it's it's something that you do so valiantly but the telegraph is quite a conservative paper and you know it's read by a certain demographic and they might be the ones who have well it's not just them there's so many

people in this world who who have such a limited view of mental health and I wonder what the stigma's been like for you like have you come up against you know not not necessarily like this is sort of societal people being like, oh, it's an epidemic, but more personally. It's interesting. That's why I love that the telegraph allow, have always allowed me to write that, because it's, it's so needed. And in fact, that was, interestingly, that was kind of one of the reasons, when I asked Prince Harry to do the podcast with me back in 2017, and, you know, he was like, one of the reasons is he was talking to an audience that perhaps need to hear it. Yeah. And like, But it's interesting because I think this stuff is,

I think stigma in mental health exists everywhere and through all demographics and all age, you know, I mean, it's particularly bad in certain areas. But what was so fascinating is when I wrote about it in The Telegraph for the first time was that there was like women in that, there was a 74-year-old woman who wrote to me and said, I've had this my whole life and I've never heard anyone talk about it.

And that broke my heart, you know? So it affects everyone. So the stigma I don't, you know, I get the odd person being like, me, me, me, shut up about, or like, you get it, that happens in a review, which is like, this book's all about her. I'm like, yes. Yes, look at the name.

What were you expecting? You know, hello? And that's their shit, not mine, you know. I love when people say that. That makes me so happy. Yeah, it's your shit. Yeah, would give it zero stars if I could. But you can't say fuck off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the coolest things you ever did, which I thought was a real, of challenge to this image-based society was run London Marathon in your underwear and I just need to hear about that so cool I was like that maybe there will there ever be a time I am not running this London Marathon I was like will it ever and because it was like the hottest marathon on record and we're probably a good thing you're in your underwear for it well it was but we like the worst thing was it was we crossed the line at like exactly the same time as the Grenfell

tower firefighters who were in like full firefighting uniform plus oxygen tanks and me and my friend jada says her who i did it with who was a plus size model were like we haven't really got an excuse for doing it this slowly um but no but it was it was amazing also people were like oh and i was like you see the elites the elite women go off and they're always wearing those you know crop tops and things and no one bats an eyelid and uh it was quite funny because it was i just we had no idea it would it would kind of have the effect I remember we went on Good Morning Britain like a couple of days before

but we raised so much money and it was so incredibly positive and in fact it launched something called Celebrate You which we do now every year I'm going to get you guys to get involved and you can still sign up which is it's a run you don't have to wear your I wasn't saying we've removed the underwear piece

and I'm like that doesn't have to do it naked you can go commando but you can wear normal running gear but it's about running for your head and your heart right. rather than for your waistline, you know, because exercise for me has been, as I know it has for you,

it's been such a pivotal thing in helping my mental health. And the, you know, exercise for me was always about punishment. It was always about the losses. And when I realized it could be about the gains and it's about like the clarity it gives me and the time and the, you know,

the space in my head, it completely transformed it. And, you know, people often say to me, like, what was your marathon time? And I'm like, what was your marathon time? they're like, I haven't run one. I'm like, so fuck off. If I just say something, honestly, only tosses ask you how fast you around your husband.

I've never known a nice person asked me that question. You know, it's about people are like, oh, I'm going to do it for this time. And actually just doing it is absolutely utterly, just having a go. My mum always says that, though. It's like it doesn't matter how long it takes. You're all doing the same distance.

Like, we're all out here doing exactly the same distance. You know, in a way, it's way harder for people like me, like it's all right like kip choggy or whatever like it's fine for him he's done in two hours yada yada at home got his feet up you know having a nice massage i'm still out there for another effing four hours and it is so transformative it put from my head so and actually at the end of next month i'm going to run 10 10 k's in 10 days with in different ways so some i'll walk jog some um you know with people of all different sort of body experiences as well to show that exercise is for everyone

it isn't just for people like also there's that thing that you have to be really good at exercise and quick you know and it's just bullshit like when I was you know no one says to you oh you can't cook unless you've got a Michelin Star that would be nuts wouldn't it be so hungry you'd be so we'd all be starving you know but um you know it's just you don't have to be like it's not about being the strongest or the fastest for me which is just as well, because I'm neither.

Doing that marathon, I mean, you know, in your underwear, like that's, you know, we do feel, in general, women feel a lot of shame around their body, and being in underwear in public just standing would already be just absolutely terrifying for most women, but to do it running as well, obviously adds an extra layer of, yeah, I mean, it would just be like hell for so many people.

And I'm wondering if that experience was, and I hate to use this term because it's cliche and so overused, but did it feel empowering and did it change your body image at all? It's so interesting because I am absolutely the kind of person who, 10, 15 years ago, I would have sooner died and stand on a stage and do anything. Run a marathon in my underwear, like, are you kidding me? you know I was bulimic in my in my teens and 20s and you know hated my body and but it was so interesting like turning that energy and being like I am so like I do you know people always go I wish I had your

confidence and I'm like I don't have confidence I think confidence is an absolute trick you know it's just it's it's sort of it's a con really I don't have confidence but what I do you have is an absolute desire to not hate on myself anymore I'm like this is such a waste of my time and it's sad and it's tragic and when I see people you know when I see women saying they can't wear something

because it's you know they shouldn't wear you know you shouldn't wear a mini skirt over a certain age or I just want to scream you know not at them but at the you know the way that we you know and until until recently you know this is this is incredible you know this campaign

to have people of, you know, all-shaped sizes, you know, disabilities. It's so important and it's so wonderful because it helps everybody. You know, inclusivity helps everybody. And so, you know, I would say to anyone, you don't have to go, you know, it's that thing, you don't have to go and stand in your underwear on a street in London or, you know, don't stop yourself from doing things because you're worried what people will think of you. because people are mostly thinking they're worried about

you're thinking about them. That's the truth, do you know what I mean? And actually most people, if I saw somebody running a marathon in their underwear, I'd be like, that's the coolest fucking thing. And all I think is, I wish I could do that. You can, if you want, there's a... You know what you did so well, obviously.

But genuinely, because we did celebrate you, which was a 10K because a marathon's like, it's a long way. You don't have to do that. But in 2019, we did a 10K through the streets of London and there's a thousand women in their underwear and all of the people lying the road

were just so supportive there was not a single negative comment that I know of and you know people are by a large pretty awesome I think yeah I hope so yeah and I guess like I want to ask for the world thinking

if people are pretty awesome I don't know I feel like it's changing like you say with campaigns like this with the work that you're doing with the work that I was doing like the conversations that are being have is so exciting and I do believe I hope that for the next generation of women it's going to be easier than it was for us because there is a light right so there will be less shame and that's what we have to hope for but do you feel like that for your daughter do you feel excitement for her you know what I am excited about is that she's feeling some anxiety at the moment like a lot of people

and it's not kind of pathologizing it and not making her feel ashamed for feeling the anxiety you know and I think that's a that excites me that we can just be and we can feel all the feelings without attaching any judgment to it, do you know what I mean? That like I think about how different my life would have been if there was you know mental health provision

I mean there's still not good mental health provision at all so but it's that's why I do what I do is for her she doesn't have any knowledge she's just like what are you doing what's your job? Why are you embarrassing me by running through London in your underwear she I tried to explain alcoholism to her right because she was like

what does it mean that you're an alcoholic? And I was like, how do I explain this in like helpful terms? And I was like, oh, I'm allergic to alcohol. So, you know, if I drank it, I'd go a bit crazy and run around naked. And she was like, but you'd do that anyway? I was like, this has not helped you at all.

But anyway, you know, yeah. But it is, I am excited and I think things are getting, there's so much better, you know. And I learn so much from younger people, you know. Because, you know, the kind of boundaries and confidence that so many people have now in their 20s that it's taken me until, you know, late 30s, early 40s to get there, I think we're definitely, you know, there's definitely progress. But there's a lot more progress still to be made. Talking about how, you know, vastly different your life is to what it was, especially, you know, how you wrote it in the wrong knickers. Did you ever think it would look like this?

How did you see it looking? I don't think I saw it looking, but I didn't, like, if you told me, sorry it's a bit, if you told me like 10 years ago that I would be like sitting here doing something like this, you know, that I would have, people would have bought books that I'd written, like not just that I'd written books that I bought them, but also that, and the thing that I think that blows my mind the most is that I don't drink anymore, you know, I'm sober. that completely blows my mind and it is and whenever I get a bit panicky about like what the

future holds or where I'm going to what I'm going to do next I'm like you don't have to worry about what you're going to do next because you have everything right now like everything is right now it is amazing you know we're all so miraculous it really is like like I do this quite a lot so if you've heard it before I do apologize but like the chances of any of us existing is like one in 10 billion to the power of two million to the power of like you don't need biology lessons but like if my dad had said something to annoy my mom back in November 1979 and they's clearly they're divorced now so he said a lot of annoying things and like he heard you know like 10 seconds later or earlier I would be a completely different person so like

sperm so when it enters a women's body because we're so clever as um we don't want any old sperm because there's like millions of sperm that our bodies start to release acids to kill the weak sperm, die, die. And then the remaining sperm has to like go on this journey. It's like a sperm iron man, but uphill.

You know how hard iron men are, right? That's like a marathon. Sounds like it really tough. Yeah, yeah. And then and then and that's if there happens to be an egg there because as we know there's only, you know, one calendar day, one day of the calendar month, is there an egg? And they have to like get through these membranes that are like the equivalent of me like

punching through that door. And then they get to the fallopian tubes or the ovaries are like, I'm so bad at biology. And it's like, do you want to go left or do you want to go right? And then so half of the remaining ones will go right, all those versions of you, gone, right? Gone. They've made the wrong. And then the ones that make the right journey, there's, and there happens to be an egg there. They get to the egg, the sperm, the remaining sperm, the remaining versions of you.

How many times are you going to say sperm? And the sperm, and the sperm, and the egg is surrounded by white blood cells that act like nightclub bouncers going, you ain't coming in, right? So like then for that sperm to fertilise that egg, and then as we all know for that, sorry, for that to then, you know, to go to term because we don't, you know, lots of pregnancies end in, miscarriage and stillbirth. and then the day you were born is the most dangerous like many doctors say is the most dangerous day of your life and then every day until then you've stayed

alive until we are all in this room together like we are all fucking miracles I feel like you deserve a clap that was so good there'll be a doctor going actually the mucus that they have to go through but you know I don't know why I've given doctors that but so it is like oh it's all here

right now guys you know it's all for the taking. It is really miraculous. Strong visualization as well. The red blood cells, nightclub bounces. That's going to stay with me forever. You're not the next childhood book, the next children's book. Well, I've already, the reason I know this is because I wrote it into my like book of advice for teenage girls. You got this. Yeah. I love that. And you did another book as well, which is out now. No such thing as normal. Yes, which is like everything I've learned about being well that I could only have learned from being ill. Because it is all a journey, you know. So when I about when I think about oh how different my life would have been if this had existed well it

didn't and I have had you know a side by side with severe mental illness have had the most remarkable wonderful fun life you know and I think that's also important to say like it doesn't always look like you know it's not all sort of lying in your room unable to get out of bed that there's a lot of that but you know I always remember Stephen Fry saying that if he could get rid of bipolar, his bipolar, what would, and he's like, he wouldn't because it enriched his life in so many other ways. And I remember when I heard that, I was in a really bad obsessive-compulsive place. And I was like, I would give anything to get rid of the obsessor compulsive disorder. But it has taught me so much about myself. And I can't get rid of it.

You know, it's part, it is part of me. And it's accepting all of the parts of you, including the bad ones because we're all a bit of it's not the marvel universe like more's the pity but we don't have like good people and bad people we're all a bit of a mix of everything you know and I think the sooner we all kind of realize that the better I think that's one of the most amazing things about about following you and knowing you and reading what you do it's like there's a lot of forgiveness of the past versions of yourself and so and it feels like there's a lot of acceptance and I think that's such a beautiful thing that you do portray to people is like it is okay it is okay you know and these things that you experience or you feel like you're alone with

you're not alone but also you can forgive yourself like I really feel like there's so much love in you for yourself and I don't know if it feels like that all the time but looking at you it does feel that there's a lot of love in you and that's very special so well thanks I feel a lot of love right now and it's so nice to be like out of out of the house and reconnecting with people because I feel like we have all, you know, the isolation that we've all had to do has been really bad for mental health, you know, and I felt a bit coming here today, I felt a bit like a kind of schoolgirl like, oh no, will anyone like me? And I, you know, I still have all of that stuff.

But it's all okay, you know, doesn't, if people don't like me, they don't like me. But as long as I came here and I did the best job I could, that's all that matters. We love you. We do. I love you too. I'd love to finish with a question that I always feel compelled to ask. and don't really know why because I would hate and do hate being asked this question myself because I don't think there's any short answer to it and I don't think there's any one thing

to say but we'll just get to the question if you could say something to anyone who's struggling right now with their mental health anyone who's perhaps partying a bit too hard to try and you know just a bit of escapism and from their own minds just for you know even though it's a vicious cycle what would you say to them and like I said I hate asking this question because there isn't just one thing that you could say but what would you feel is the most vital thing to get across to them nothing you have done or thought in your life hasn't been done or thought by someone else somewhere in the history of time and you're not a freak and it's okay and i think it's that thing of it's okay it's going to be okay you know my head can can catastrophize

you know i can like spiral to very dark places and um but that also the advice i would give is is do the thing you think you can't you know there's no one quick there's no one thing i could say that can solve anyone's problems. I'm sorry, I knew it was a shit question. It's not a shit, no, no, no, it's not a shit question, but I think it's like, I don't know, like, it's okay, it's basically. And I hate that, that can still and say, it's okay, it's okay, not to be okay. And I'm like, yeah, but it's not, it feels horrible, doesn't it?

But I do think there's power in that, and I think there's power in saying to yourself as well, like, it's okay that I feel this, rather than trying to, I'm going to try and bat this off and shrug it away. and get it as far away from me as possible because it's uncomfortable and I feel, it makes me feel bad. I think there's power in being able to say, like, actually, it's okay that I feel this.

Like, it would be nice not to feel like this, and let's try and work our way out of this, but it's okay to feel this. And I think that does give you a sense of, like, peace and freedom, even though the bad feeling is still that, is that making sense? It does, and it kind of just gives you that little bit of space from it. Space, yeah, yeah, a distance. I really, I always, yeah, it's that.

totally that like oh my god the goblin in my head is telling me i'm a serial killing be hedophile this is awful i would do anything not to feel this but it's actually going no it's okay it's okay you're safe you're okay i have a friend who's a therapist and she says people always come and go i will do anything not to feel like this again and she says that's the problem it's like you have to it's you don't want to feel and just accept how you're feeling and what is that showing you about your life you know um but it's hard and that's the thing that's the thing that it's hard to feel the feelings. But I think we are programmed as well to, well, yeah, we don't want it.

It's uncomfortable. It's this discomfort and we don't like being uncomfortable. So it's hard to say to yourself, I'm going to feel that extremely uncomfortable feeling. But I think there's a great power in doing so. And also I think if you think we're all brought up, I don't know about you, but when I was a little girl and I cry, my parents would be like, don't cry. Yeah. Or you'd get angry.

You'd be like, don't be silly. You know, with all of that judgment. So, you know, I try and not say that. You know, I want to say, stop crying. I'm like, no, let it all out. That's actually a really good point. We're not taught to explore our emotions. And, yeah, that's a really good point, actually.

Do cry. Absolutely. Let's all have a nice cry. Please do not tempt me. I will. It doesn't take me much, if you want. Brian, thank you so much. Thank you.

Just actually, a final thought just to finish it on because I just think it's actually incredibly telling about the way that our... mind's work. You know, you said you're anxious before you came here today and that blows my mind that I just, I think this says a lot about me, but I think it also says a lot about how we behave on social media because I would look at you and be like, this woman has her shit together, she's so confident, she's this, I know, but I do. And I think we do that with other people all the time, right? We look at other people and think nothing's going to face them and we put ourselves

below them all the time. And actually it's so wonderful to hear you be so honest about feeling all the feelings that you do because you're a wonderful human but you are just a human at the end of the day and I think I don't know I had a bit I had like honestly a mini in so much as you can have a mini panic attack

but I was coming in here and I was coming up the stairs and I was like I think I'm having a hot flush but I was actually like my heart rate was like off the scale and but that's okay you know that is a again it's talking about and it was just having a moment and having some water you know not having a cough

being a fag. Doesn't finally enough help, panic attacks. I've learnt this to why. But, yeah, and it's nice to hear that you're surprised by that, but yeah, I'm a ball of anxious. Welcome to the stage, so are we. I think probably the room.

Brian, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. That was wonderful. Hello. Hello. All right. Wasn't it lovely? It was really nice

It was really good I enjoyed the science lesson I know Literally didn't know Half of that stuff So We got sperm We do I think we've got some work

To do with your sexual education I think I think this podcast is gonna be good for it I think we're gonna learn some shit I didn't know I didn't know a third of that stuff So yeah Chaos

So this is just me Came from my DMs I thought it's a really interesting One to talk about So this woman said Is it just me Who finds people who share their opinions constantly annoying.

It's probably my own issue, but I just can't bear it when someone constantly and forcefully shares their opinions. I don't mind when it's a few opinions every now and then, but particular people just always, always have to share theirs when no one asked, and it feels forceful and like they are saying it as if it is a fact. Is it just me?

It's not just you. I do get that in real life, and I sometimes just think, we don't need to have an opinion. I sometimes think that on an Instagram as well. With influencers, you literally have, there is no excuse not to escape if someone annoys you. Escape, flee, get out of their page and forget it ever happened.

I love having you here, but if I'm annoying you, like, for your good, go. Like, yeah, it's fine. Yeah, it's really fun. You know when you're just in a really bad mood and then something, like, I don't know, something innocuous happens that's so annoying and it's not even annoying. You know what I mean? Yeah. I don't know, sometimes like the sound of Alex eating, if I'm in a good,

mood completely doesn't bother me but if he's if I'm in a bad mood oh my god the worst thing ever ever heard so obviously like when you're about if you're in a bad mood and then you go on instagram and then there's somebody there it's like you're like oh god fuck this bitch so annoying even if what they're doing isn't technically annoying it's just annoying to you because you're in that headspace yeah we have to when we when we put content out we have to basically assume that there's like all these different people in all these different mental states and we're going to annoy some people yeah also i mean maybe i'm just defensive because i'm incredibly opinionated. I do think if it's influences you're talking about like just yeah get off

their page like to an extent it's extremely easy to control your your online environment right and this is what like when people message me and say like oh I really like following you but I don't like this kind of content and I'm like okay well you've got two choices you either don't follow me and don't have any of my content or you decide to like the bits that you do like and you know dismiss dismiss what you don't like but yeah you know yeah yeah Because we can't win, because particularly with, like, I mean, use any conflict, any world event, if we, if we don't say anything, we get messages going, your silence is deafening. And we get a lot of shit for not speaking out. Then when we do speak out, we get shit for saying the wrong thing or saying this, because we can't possibly say something that's going to please everybody. Right. And I do, I think it's really interesting, like, this idea of, you know, like, I think I can't remember the language that that person used, but it's like, you know, I hear it all the time and it's like, someone's forcing it down your throat or like, I just, you know, I, I just, you know, I, I find it's, I can't bear to listen. Like, I just wish they'd shut up.

And it's like, why do you feel this so, so much anger towards this? But why do you need to control what they're doing when you can really easily just control either how you react to it or whether or not you even want to listen to it? Yeah, totally. Do you know what though? It's funny because for me, for online, like, I feel like it never irritates me, like people's opinion, like it just doesn't. But I do find it prickly in real life when people forcefully share their opinion.

opinions and I do think that's more of a, well, there's definitely a me problem. And it's definitely my own things, but I have always found it. I think because, and I, I'm definitely more opinionated as I've got older, but I never used to be. And I think, I think a lot of this as well is rooted in misogyny, I think. And like, women shouldn't really be opinionated. Like, they should be quite easygoing and they shouldn't be difficult. And so I think a lot of it is rooted in that and for some reason I've managed to I've managed to resolve that in like my online you know interactions but then in real life I do find it off-putting when someone is like really can you give me an example like a context so the way I always think of it is like the

what I really liked about Dave is that he has well-unformed opinions about like politics but he doesn't feel the need to sort of talk about it you know And he can let someone have their opinion about their politics without trying to impose his on them, on them. And I really like that. And that's what I try and do as well. But then I don't necessarily think that that's the right thing or the wrong thing. Do you know what I mean? It's just for me, that just feels better than someone being like, well, no, actually, because da-da-da-da-da.

I don't know. It's my own thing. I'm sure of it. I'm sure of it. It's my own thing. I think we are being, like, forced to have a lot of opinions, though. And we do, you know, like, what did they used to say about, like, um, was it, like, you should never talk about, like, sex politics or religion, you know?

Like, I think, like, that's the kind of old school way of thinking. It's like, you don't, at the dinner table, you don't talk about sex politics or religion. Yeah. Whereas now it's like, me, I'm like, I'm, please, I talk about sex politics and religion for a job, like, right on. Yeah. Um, so I think it's really like, um, it is hard now because, and I think to an extent, like, obviously we can only speak in the context of ourselves, but like we are, even before I, I had

to have an opinion for a job like I I've always I've been really opinionated and probably well definitely ignorantly so like I have an opinion on something and I wouldn't really change my mind I've learned now that changing my mind is like the most powerful yeah and like brilliant thing like I think only idiots are resolutely you know not going to not open to having their minds changed I'm like don't be don't be stupid like obviously you know we're learning all the time I love changing my mind like I literally love being proved wrong now and change my mind and evolving my thoughts but that's really new because I would always perceive that as a loss and I think a big part of that is like being a woman as well because you want to be like

a strong woman you want to be right you want to be strident and and there's a lot of like um I don't know like not shame but like you know if you if you get something wrong it's like it's like a sign of weak for anybody it's a sign of weakness to have to be like oh I was actually wrong about that and and I actually think that's the biggest sign of strength but but I do think that that is important, that like shame we feel, which I think is also cognitive dissonances, and I feel like I talk about this. I've talked about this loads on the podcast, which is very random, but it is really interesting because I think cognitive dissonance, which is like, if anyone who doesn't know, it's like, it's like the fee, the uncomfortable

feeling you have when your beliefs don't match your behaviours. Cognitive, you know, I'm trying to be vegetarian now, and it was because of cognitive dissonance. Like I felt uncomfortable about the fact that I was obsessed with animals, but then I would also eat animals. So there was like this discomfort and it's like how do I get over that so that so but but realizing that you've been wrong and that you've behaved wrong in the past and now you've now got new beliefs that don't tie into that past behavior makes you uncomfortable and therefore it feels easier to lean into those past behaviors and past beliefs and not go towards the new ones and that's why we don't explore new opinions new points of view because it's easier it's more comfortable and

it's more, you know, we don't like being uncomfortable. It hurts. It's not very, it's not very nice. And I do think that's one of the biggest things that I've like worked on in the past few years and I still do. I still do because I can feel myself like defensive about stuff and then I'm like, hang on. If I am, if I have been wrong, that's okay. Like, you know, I can look back without any judgment or shame, but I can like move forward in, you know, doing better and like with a, you know, a more informed point of view. I don't know, that's probably a tangent. Instinctively, no, it makes sense,

but I mean, we have gone on a tangent from the original thing, but it does make sense. Like, instinctively, we do get defensive. And, like, and particularly, like, if we're judging ourselves, you know, you lash out and you're like, oh, God. And we do take things really personally.

So sometimes when somebody, when I feel like somebody's forcing an opinion on me, they're actually not forcing an opinion on me. They're just having an opinion that's different to mine. And because I'm taking that personally, what I interpret that is them saying that I'm wrong. And I get really like, well you can't say that I'm wrong

and then I get riled and my heckles go up and I feel like instinctively I want to fight back when I don't need to do this I've learned that it's been a massive part of my coaching to let other people be wrong like I don't need to bring everybody

way to round to my way of thinking and I also don't need everybody to think that I'm right all the time like for me I'm like I think this and I need you to think this too and if you're not going to think this I need you to know why I think this and I need you to know that I'm a better person than you

because I think this like and that's not great but like that's those are the arguments that I'd be having and that would be my my way of thinking and I'm like my morals say this and I'm right and I need you to know that and then and then if you still think your thing then you're a bad person so I would get very defensive because I would always think that I was the better person and now I'm like I only have my perspective I'm probably wrong I might not be wrong they might be wrong but that's not my problem so I've like removed all of my ego from these conversations and now I don't really feel the need to like, you know, like, it's fight or flight, isn't it? You get like, uh, but it's, it's so true.

And learning the grey area. God, we should have called the podcast the grey area, honestly. I know 100%. But like, like, that grey area where you're like, maybe he's not wrong or she's not wrong and she's not right and I'm not wrong and I'm not right. Like, maybe there is no right answer, but all we have is our own opinions and like, yeah. Because I think I'm guilty as well and have been of being like my opinion is a fact.

Like it is a fact. other people agree with me that I respect so I know it's a fact and actually we are we're probably the people that that lady was complaining about God we are aren't we oh my God we really are pushing our opinions but I think you can't control right

what other people do so if it whatever the context is actually at this original message whatever if this it probably isn't just you like we all get annoyed by and there are some people that just fucking know it all's but you just have to weigh up like like you said before either like if it's your mother and she's just a real fucking

know it all. Either stop going to see her or just accept that's who she is and just tune it out. Yeah, yeah. Learn to just live with it. This person wasn't asking for advice, but... Oh my gosh, well, you're welcome for the therapy session you never asked for. Yeah. I'll send an invoice.

I'm just going to say also, I feel like I came across really badly because I feel like I reacted, like, I feel like I actually, having just said, I never have my ego in. I feel like I actually fully have my ego in there. And I just like forced my opinion on this down that woman's throat, which I feel is really ironic. So I just want to say I'm sorry for that. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like I got very like, well, fuck off.

No, no, no. But, I mean, I haven't thought about it in the context of influencers, but if I had, I think I would have also felt defensive about it because that is annoying and something that we deal with all the fucking time. I mean, you know, I mean, you don't need to get your tiny violins out, but it is, yeah, an annoying part. Exhausty. But in real life, I actually really get it with that guy.

Like, the amount of, like, men that I'll hang out with, that give me their opinion on something. Yeah. That's like, oh God. That's the thing. Like, why are you telling me this? Why are you telling me this? Like, and like, sometimes I get so annoyed.

Like, I know certain people that I just, I just avoid talking about anything with it. Because I can't be bothered with this. There is one man that I just caught because, and his opinion is always fact. And my opinion is always less than because I am a woman. And it's very, very clear that that's the case. And it drives me nuts. I know some men like that. And it's so jarring.

I'm like, can you just stop the feeling? I'm a fucking idiot. Yeah. Like, so I do, I'm from that, if I'd have come at this conversation from that context, I'd have had a very different time, because I do, that does jar me. But then I'm just like, oh, fuck off, fuck off, go start a podcast or something, you know what I mean? Yeah. I just love it so much.

Stop journaling me, yeah. Have you tried meditating? Have you tried manifesting? How funny. Right. So, I was prompted to email in after listening to the story of the poor girl who had a condom left in her vagina and Alex's friend's of the stench coming through her jeans after the same thing happened dot dot dot dot sadly I have no man or condom to blame for my horrible experience so I was in

training for running the London Marathon for the first time it was 2012 Olympic year in London and I was full on inspired and smashing the training got to the week of the marathon and I started bleeding I don't get regular periods I have the coil fitted so I just stuck a tampon on oh no I stuck a tampon in and got on with my week the week went on and I started to notice a revolting smell wafting around my crotch. I showered a lot, then thought it must be BV or thrush, so bought some cream and medication and hope for the best. The aroma got worse and worse and I was absolutely distraught. Marathon Day was arriving and I trotted off around London with a full-on foul stent

emanating from my vagina, mortified. I cracked on, miraculously ran a bloody decent race, got to the hotel after the race, had a bath and did a finger swirl. Oh, graphic. Up my fanny. to try and clean it out. The run must have dislodged the tampons. Ons. Tampons. Come on.

Because I fin it. Because I fished out not one but two minging tampons. I must have forgotten that they were up there. To this day, I haven't told a soul. Oh, bless her. And I maintain that those tampons were the reason, I ran a three hour, 61 minute, 22 second marathon. Paha ha ha ha ha, hope it made you smile.

Oh my God, oh bless her. Wait, so she's... I need to ask what the three hours, 61 minute marathon. Does that mean it was four hours and one minute? If so, I really like this technique. Three hours and sixty one. When I ran my ultra marathon, I did it in three hours, three hours and 31 minutes. Love that.

Um, oh my God. So, so she's forgotten about... Both of them are just one of them. Both of them. This did happen to one of my friends who will remain incredibly anonymous. I was going to give her a rank, but I'm actually not going to do that. I happened to one of my friends, and she had to go to, um... To hospital.

To have, to have the, the neglected one removed, the same thing. The neglected one. I, I just don't know. Like, I don't know if my vagina... I don't know if my vagina's just not that big. I just don't... I'm not that I'm saying this person has a big vagina. I just, I don't know.

I just, I don't know. Yeah, I'm always aware. Well, I think I am. Because I don't know how I could get another one up. I just don't know if there'd be space. I might try putting two ampals up. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, I don't think there would be.

Yeah, well, there must be. Unless it was like a little, a litlet, whatever they're, a lilit. You know, litlet, the stupid word. Yeah, the mini ones. I could imagine, I could imagine, those are tiny, you know. Yeah, they're tiny. Like, like a, like a meteorite just floating off. Yeah.

um so i don't know like i can imagine i can i can i can picture the scene but with you know sort of like a like a super tampax pearl you know i couldn't imagine losing one of those but no i can't imagine it either but it happens i might try and put two up and just see what god don't next call from you you'd be like i'm in a and e put two pound tampons up and now they're stuck oh no i know i know myself well we've planted that seed that was such a mistake um oh god bless you that's actually it's such a shame but also fucking impressive i always think i always think of bonita you know that um if you have missed the past episode we interviewed bonita norris who climbed mount everest on her period and i just think whenever women doing this cool shit while bleeding

i'm just like there's no way there's just no way you know what i mean like if men were bleeding out there fucking dicks. We'd know about it. We would so know about it. Yeah, but he'd be like, not only did he do it, but he did it while bleeding, whereas women, it's like, tell no one. This is your stinking, dirty little secret, you sordid, bloody woman. I just, it's so annoying, honestly. Good on that girl. Anyway. Yeah, I mean, thank God she didn't get like toxic shock syndrome, but like. I honestly, did anyone else just have the fear of fucking death put into them about toxic shock syndrome. Yeah.

I'm too scared to sleep because they say what, you're supposed to have to have tamponing for eight hours and anything longer. But like I'm like, should I set an alarm in the middle of the night?

Like, what if I need to sleep for more than eight hours? What if I get drunk? What if it's Friday? What if I want to lie? What if I'm done? Put the fear of fucking death in me. Yeah, I was always scared about TSS, TSS.

Yeah, TSS. TSS. No, the signs. I'm like, terrifying. Okay. So I've got another, is it just me? Is it just me?

Or is it really hard to be in a relationship? with a naturally thin person. Weight is something that I've struggled with forever and finally in adulthood I am working towards body acceptance. My partner is wonderful but is a naturally small, thin human who could lay on the couch and eat whatever he wanted for five years and still have abs and never get a stomach ache in brackets infuriating. So he has a very narrow, inaccurate understanding of the struggle that so many of us go through with our bodies. He is kind and considerate to all people, but behind closed doors can say some pretty insulting things, merely out of a total misconception of the person's situation. My body has, of course, changed over the course of our four-year

relationship, and I am a bit larger now than I was back then. So when he says negative things about other people in their way, I have no choice but to assume he thinks the same of me, or when I complain about my body and then say, eat a cookie, he says something about it. I've tried to talk to him many times about this, and he has made small changes, but because he has never had to struggle in the same ways that so many of us have with our body image, he just cannot understand these sort of situations and is not able to see how the things he says can be so harmful. I'd be curious to I don't know if anyone else has a similar experience and would love some guidance. I have so much to say about this on a serious note.

Alex is one of these. Like I think there's a science for it, isn't this, called like ectomorphs or endomorphs. And I'm an endomorph. Like I'd be fine. Like if the apocalypse happens, I could eat myself, you know, like my own fat supply for like weeks. Honestly, I'd be, me and the cockroaches, I'd be absolutely grand. Alex would be dead within a minute. Like he needs so much fuel to just keep going.

And I actually really noticed it when we both stopped, so eating meat. Like he, I live a plant-based diet for the most part. And he, we both neither a seat meat. And when we first both sort of went vegan, he went vegan originally and he lost so much weight. Like he lost loads. And I gained loads because for me, on a practical level, eating less protein, you know, protein's got less fat, a lot more vegan food, you know, it's not necessarily. a weight loss diet whatever and my body changed a lot also I'm you know like I got around that time

I was getting over 25 and that's when your metabolism slows down for a woman so I gained weight and he was just losing it and I was literally just like I've I've always uh less I don't now but I had always really struggled with that because my my body's yo-yoed so much since we've been together I've been bigger I've been smaller and I don't think he cares about me you know like how I look I think he loves me regardless but I completely understand how how this person feels because it's so annoying because we've grown up even with the like how many girls did you go to school with who'd always be like I can just eat whatever I like and I'm like like because although I can eat what I like you know I always was taught that there'd be

consequences for that right and like and and so we were taught that we couldn't like let ourselves go and we couldn't like you know and and and that obviously led to so many of us with disordered eating and binging tendencies and so much of it and so it's instinctively so annoying when you can just watch and I watch addicts do it all the time like I have to plate him up because he trains a lot

and he does his Iron Man's and if he doesn't eat enough it's actually dangerous like when he did his first Iron Man he got so thin like he was like I think he was like 2% body fat or something and obviously he looked amazing but he was just like he was cold

and he was tired and like we have to feed him so much and actually I never considered it from his side that it would be annoying from an exercise standpoint. You know, me, I can eat one meal and probably go till Thursday, whereas he has to eat like five, six, seven times a day

and a lot of food. But if I'm leading it with my own feelings, I can take that personally. I can be upset by it. I can be annoyed by it because I'm like, this is so unfair, when actually it's horrible for him in a weird sort of way

because society says that men have to be big, a butcher, and really macho, macho, because, you know, by the same stroke that we have to be small, they have to be big. And I think that's actually difficult. And when he was at school, he really tried to like bulk up and, and he's had his own struggles with it. But they're just so different to mine. So like this girl, sorry, I just feel like I was just like hijacked this whole thing.

But like the person who sent this in, I would take all of it so personally. And he couldn't understand it from my side because he'd spent his whole life trying to gain weight. And when we got together, I was 18 and unhappy. And I just wanted to lose weight. and if we did the same diet he would be like disappear within two days and nothing would change for me and it's so frustrating

so it's not just you sorry it's gone on for fucking ages about that but yeah no it's definitely it's definitely not just you at all I think this is something that is true for yeah a lot a lot of people and also you know because like when we're babies

like we're born being intuitive eaters right we eat when we're hungry like we stop when we're full like basically kind of thing which is a very like reductive view of intuitive eating but you get the gist um and then men tend to because they get less interference with their diet from diet culture they tend to they tend to stay like intuitive eaters or at least a lot more so than women um that's you know because so many of us have disorder eating because of diet culture so it tends to be that actually like i used to think that my boy my old my ex-boyfriend my old my ex-boyfriend

and could just eat what he wanted and I was beyond jealous. And I think this is different to Alex because this guy actually, Benny, I was calling him by his name, but Benny, he ate probably kind of what I eat now, really, maybe a bit less.

Like, I don't need the same portion size as him. But to me, because my eating was so disordered and I ate so little, it seemed crazy to me that he could eat this amount. So if eating how you want to eat, like what works for you, what is getting your nutrition dense food? in as well as like the stuff that you enjoy that's non-nutrition dense if you're doing all of that

and you're ending up not being thin then without any disorder eating then you're probably at the right point for you like you're not supposed to be thin and that's just that is just genetics and DNA and that is how our bodies are built and it is so futile to fight that even though we are taught like so strongly that that's what we should fight but we shouldn't and it's so you know and I know it's easy for me to sit here and say, just accept your body. I know that's so annoying, but then I do think at a certain point

you have to be like, well, I make a choice, I continue fighting against my reality, you know, and I can, for the rest of my life, I fight my reality, or I accept my reality

and we go from there and I have a much happier existence. But also in the context of like him... Yeah, sorry, I went off. No, you're right, but in the context of this specific thing, I think there's two things. You know, you said,

at one point you said, I have no choice, but to assume that he's talking about me. Right, yeah. I mean this with all love, but you do have a choice and he isn't talking about you. Yeah.

He isn't. Like you say, you recognize it yourself. He's ignorant to what you're going through. And he needs to listen and you do need to find, I think, a good way of communicating this to him and saying, this is really affecting me because. But on the other side of that, you have to remove yourself from, you know,

you're putting yourself here because it's like what we're talking about before you instinctively get defensive and you're feeling how you're feeling and I completely understand that but you therefore project your feelings onto him because that's completely normal and that's what human beings do but I think it's really important to recognise that he isn't talking about you he isn't thinking about you he's when he's doing what he's doing he's just doing what he's doing and it isn't necessarily anything to do with you yeah if he is if he is saying shitty things to you about your body, then fuck this guy. But if he's saying shitty things, because he's just saying shitty things, you don't need to make them

about you. And that's the first step. I still think you need to talk to him and I still think you need to say, look, you're being a good. Here's some reading. Here's some literature. Here's a podcast. Here's some information. And if you won't hear it from me, then I want you to hear it from other voices because I am struggling with this. And I say this to Alex sometimes too, because sometimes he'll use language that I find difficult. I'm like, just stop. Just don't say this. Don't talk like this.

You know, and he can make jokes because he's in a very different position, but he'll make a joke about the word shred or he'll, you know, he'll grab his little tummy after he's eating and he'll be like, oh, chub-tub. And I'm like, stop it. I don't find this funny. I don't find this helpful. Yeah. Because I look at you and you're a rake of a man and it's, well, not a rig,

he's got these muscles now, he looks lovely. And I look at that. and then I look at me and I instinctively because I lead with my ego I think well if you think that about you what do you think about me if you think your fat what do you think I am because I make it about me he's not this is nothing to do with me right so I just have to catch him

and I'll be like babe we're not talking like that we're not doing that yeah but I don't need to make what he's saying about me because I'm nowhere in his periphery I'm not the forefront of his mind of his life all the time when he's looking at himself in the mirror and saying what he's saying to him in the mirror that's between him and him and I don't need to insert myself If I don't want to listen to it, I can either say, I'm not going to listen to this,

or please, can you change it? Yeah. And I think you do need to talk to him and try and lead him to some understanding. But on the, and accept that he's completely wide, completely different to you. He's grown up completely different to you. But also know that you don't need to make his comments about you. You don't need to take them personally, even if it feels personal. Even if he's looking at you and saying, well, don't eat this biscuit if you want to do this.

He's not saying it because he's not saying it because he's, He doesn't think you should eat the biscuit. He's not saying it because he thinks you're fat. You know, women, we always have that, like, that silly trope that we do where it's like, I'll come into Alex and I'll say, oh, my God, I think I look ugly. And he'll go, oh, yeah, do you want to get changed? And I'll go, oh, my God, you're agreeing with me.

You do think I look ugly. And it's like, I just laid the man a bear trap. Like, he doesn't think I look ugly. He's just trying to make me happy. Extremely practical. He's coming at you with, like, a solutions-based response. Like, you're telling me that you're complaining about your body, like, I'm imagining from what you're saying, that you're saying that you're saying

that you think you're too big or you want to lose weight. So then when you go and eat a cookie, like it's his practical brain going, well, then don't eat a cookie. You know, it's just very, very simple and from someone who doesn't understand the emotional implications of this. So, but make, lead him to some resources.

Like, can I do something that I'm really ashamed of myself for doing? You're going to plug your book on me? I'm going to plug my book. Yeah, I know, I know. Because, only because I think what I wanted to do as well is do a good job of. laying out, laying everything out to show everyone, not just women, but men, how, why we, why we feel like this about our bodies, that it's not a female, it's not a woman thing,

it's not a female thing, it's not something that's innate to us, we're not born thinking, I want to be thin, you know, we're not born, like, struggling with our body, like, there is so much that goes behind it. So, okay, not just my book, you can obviously, like, other books, too, but an anti-diet book or, like, something that's just going to explain to him, like, all the things that female like that women have faced and you know yeah i just think it would be really helpful for him to then get an idea of what you you know you go through with your body basically i feel embarrassed now that i did a plug i'm no i'll do it i'll do it it's available for pre-order um now is it the link in your bio yes link in my bio yeah so yeah alph book you're you're not a

before picture and and there's a lot of research but i think it's and and a lot of uh reading for him to do but it has to be an open conversation and I think that'll start when you stop instinctively kicking with defensive yeah uh if he is being an utter twat and he is actually actively talking about your body yeah in this way but it doesn't sound like he is um so I think the first step is okay this isn't about me this isn't about me this isn't about me and just keep and I say that to myself all the time this isn't about me this isn't about me this isn't about me and from there you can have a much more rational and practical conversation without leading with your emotions because often men just say they're like, what? Why are you crying? I don't understand. And then nothing good

comes to it because then you don't know why you're crying. And then everybody's, he's angry. You're crying and everybody's confused. So, yeah. Communication. If I write a book, that's what I'm going to call it. He's angry. I'm crying and everyone's confused. Love it. Oh my God. Well, we have run out of time. Yeah. you're late you've got a meeting to go to do that that was really interesting though and i do think a lot of people will be able to relate to that so so yeah yeah i think as well let's just say with the um we've got the email if you ever want to send in stuff we've got the instagram account which is a should i delete that instagram account yes um where you can send in dms or you can send an email to should i delete that pod at gmail dot com and it doesn't have to be you know always funny is it just me that whatever if you if you do have stuff like this that you want all and i to talk about um I can't promise we'll say anything helpful, but we might try. Sorry, that jingling in the background is booer. Scratching her little ears.

But yes, anything about the podcast is just, it's good, yeah, it's good to have an open, an open conversation. And next week's guest is fucking great. And we talk about sex and, and patriarchy and only fans. And I can't wait for you all to hear it. And I'm so excited. So we will see you next week. Monday. Bye.

On October 17th I'm an angel. See the wings? Don't miss the new comedy Good Fortune starring Seth Rogen, Aziz Ansari, and Keanu Reeves. Critics rave. It's heaven sent. You have a budget, guardian angel? Kind of.

You were very unhelpful. Good fortune. Directed by Aziz Ansari.