Should I Delete That? - OUR BEST BITS - PART ONE: Jameela Jamil, Jacqueline Hurst, our husbands and more…

Episode Date: January 12, 2026

We’re celebrating Should I Delete That by sharing with you some of our best bits and favourite moments from the past four years - we’ve had so many incredible guests join us on the podcast, and we hope you enjoy these conversations as much as we did! IN THIS EPISODE: Our first ever episode (December 2021) Jacqueline Hurst (January 2022) Sherry Lever - Britain’s Oldest Dominatrix (June 2025) Jameela Jamil (January 2022) Dave and Alex - Husbands Q&A (December 2023) GambleAware (October 2022) Body Image Series - Ozempic (February 2025) Body Image Series - Professor Phillippa Diedrichs (January 2025) Michelle Elman (October 2024) Helen Thorn (May 2024) Kayley Stead (October 2023) Our entire archive will be staying live - so if you want to hear more from these guests, you can go back and listen to the episodes in full at any time. Follow us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Elliott MckayVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Sarah EnglishMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Shoulda Delete That. You are listening to the best bits from the past four years. We hope you enjoy. Hi everyone and welcome to an as of yet unnamed podcast. My name is M Clarkson and I am here with my co-host. Do you do a drum roll. My co-host, Alex Light. Hi, as Em said, yes, we have no name yet.

It's to be determined. But we are very excited to be bringing you this brand new podcast. It's going to be full of basically our opinions, our changing opinions, stuff that's going on in the world that we've got a strong opinion on, basically loads of opinions. Not just ours. Not just ours, crucially, and thankfully, not just ours, as complete our experts in pretty much everything.

Yeah. We definitely want this. This is a conversation, this is a chance for us to have a conversation, for us to talk stuff through. We want nuance. Alex and I both feel, I think, that we lack a lot of nuance on social media. And often the conversations that we have are just really hard to have. And we want to find a way and a safer space of opening it up.

So that's what we're doing. Yeah. And we're going to be trying to like break down shame around stuff that so many of us feel shame around opening up conversations, talking to experts and asking them your questions as well. So we're going to ask you to submit questions to each expert that we get on, hopefully. Please come on our show. No experts arrive.

I feel like we're like jack of some trades, master of none. Yeah, so welcome to this podcast. To be fair, to be totally honest, this podcast is not a representation of what we have planned next year. We will be back in January in 2022 with a well-structured, thought out, potentially scripted

good podcasts that we're proud of. This this won't be that. It's basically, it's a lot of us hashing stuff out essentially. Yeah, this podcast is a roundup of 2021. As Em said, there will be, when we return, so think of this as the intro episode, right?

Like a pilot episode. But when we return... Basically, we're assuming that you're really bored because it's between Christmas and New Year, so you'll listen to any old shit. That's what we've been counting on for this, right? In January, we know you're busy people, you've got stuff to do.

You'll want to listen to something good in January. and we will provide that for you. Yeah, so we actually, and I feel like we have a lot of conversations about really good, interesting stuff that I think will be valuable to like hash out in an open forum and get people on to help us as well.

In the interest of being honest and candid, we can speak obviously a lot. You know, some of the things that we talk about on social media, it would be amazing to be able to talk about it in a more conversational way, but it's difficult because social media does like nuance.

Yes. So that's what we kind of, excited to be able to do here is really actually just get into stuff and talk about the things that we really struggle with on social media because it can be difficult to have a proper conversation. So that's going to be really fun. We do need to stress that if nobody listens to this and if everybody or alternatively, if people do listen to it and despise it, we won't be back in January. And you have to ignore everything that you heard about our big structured plans for 2022 because they won't be happy. They will be cancelled. The 2022 will be cancelled. We're going to delete this episode and it'll be like, it'll be like all in your head. You'll be like, do you remember when you did that episode? Be like, no, what? What episode?

Are you okay? Yeah, a lot of mulled wine at Christmas. You're okay, hon? No episode happens will not have happened. So you better love it. Right, let's get into it. Let's kick off. 2021, let's go.

I think a lot of people online talk nowadays about setting boundaries. and saying no, but I know that is something that a lot of people have a hard time doing, including us, can't say no to save my life. Do you have advice on that for perennial people pleasers? Like, how can we say no without letting it make us feel bad? So the thing is, is if you say no, it's going to make, if you don't say no, it's going to make you feel bad. So that, again, you've got a choice, right?

which way do you want to sit? You're completely right that the reason we don't say no is because we're people pleasing. Except, again, when you do this work, you understand you can't please people because they've got their own thoughts and their own feelings, which I can't control. So whatever I do is whatever I'm going to do

and you're going to decide to think about that and whichever which way you're going to decide to think about that. And I could be the nicest person in the world to you and you could still choose not to like me. So that's really interesting to know, right? So saying no is not about the other people. When we learn to like ourselves and value ourselves and believe that we are worthy and key good enough,

we learn to start to take care of ourselves more. And we say, I'd love to do that, but I can't do that today. But I could do it for you on Friday. and what you learn when you're brave enough to do that work is the people that are not meant to be in your life will fall away and again that's another gift and the people that are meant to be in your life they stay and most people would say that's fine Friday's great no problem

and you think gosh why didn't I say no earlier right you can't make other people happy that took me so long to learn with Jack and it's like because I'd be like oh no but I want to and I would then I'll make their lives easier and I'll make this and I'll just do everything like let me help you. So unhealthy, so unhealthy. It's so tiring. I'm so healthy like in relationships, right?

Like you've got to go into a relationship as a whole person. You've got to, you, it's not someone else's job to make you happy. It's your job to make you happy and whole and feeling like you're good enough. You know, this is why this work is so important. And actually when you're the happiest of yourself, you can then be what other people, you know, the people that have stayed around, you're exactly what they want you to, or not what they want you to be,

but you're exactly right for them because you can all be happy together rather than one of you giving like all of yourself, right? Really, yeah, 100%. Right. I imagine like the art of saying no is kind of like exposure therapy. Like the more you say it, the better you feel about it, right? 100%.

For the rest of the year. No, no, no. 100%. But it's an important thing. thing to learn to do, you know. Definitely. And I like that you, I mean, I see a lot of things online that I struggle with that say no is a complete answer or no is a complete sentence.

Because I am like a really polite person. Like I never want to make anyone feel bad. So I kind of struggle to you. I think that's massively part of being a woman as well. And you're going to say that. Yeah. We ask we're so conditioned to be like, oh, can I make your life? Can I make you more comfortable? How can I be palatable? How can I be perfect? How can I be well

presented and easygoing because you don't want a difficult woman because they're hysterical and they're angry and they're overly emotional and they're a nightmare and blah blah blah blah blah blah. And people talk about them. And exactly. Like so we, I think women are much more likely to be people pleasers because we have been conditioned to create easy lives for everybody around us and we are taught to prioritize other people and you know what Jack's saying about like us not having the right tools. like I think we've been given actively by a patriarchal society the wrong tools in order to make us play this part. And I think you can still be so nice and say, like, I'm still shit at it, by the way, but I do know. We've got work to do.

We've got worked on it. You can still say, like, thank you so much, but on this occasion it's a note. And that's not rude. But because I think, like, because we're so conditioned to be so malleable that we feel. like any obstruction of another person's will, particularly a man's will, it's like an act of defiance when actually are boundaries. A boundary's cool. Boundaries are cool.

Can you explain to the listeners what your boundaries are, what you will do, what you won't do? Because I don't know if that varies from dominatrix to dominatrix, but I think perhaps it's not always clear from the outside what those boundaries are, so it would be great if you could explain those. Okay, there are. and to be honest, every Dom's boundaries are different. So my boundaries start with no sex.

They do not touch me. I don't do body worship. I allow foot worship. That's it. I don't do scat play because, in my opinion, it's extremely dangerous. What's that, sorry? It's poo. Got it.

It's quite a big. thing but I do I do do little posts occasionally just putting out a warning because you know you can get a E. coli oh well there's just so many bacteria that you can get from it. It's just not safe

I don't do water sports from source so I do allow them to drink my nectar from a dog bowl or use a funnel that's quite a big thing I have got one slave that actually buys a bottle of my nectar to have with his evening meal instead of wine.

And he does that without you? Yeah, he just buys it. Takes it home and puts it in his fridge and has it every night until it's gone with his dinner. Yeah. And I could, I can almost hear everybody going, what? But, you know, I never force anybody to do that. they, if they ask, then that's fine. But I would never make anybody.

No, of course. It feels like people bring to you their desires and you tailor for them within your boundaries, what you're comfortable to get. Absolutely, yeah. And I mean, if I do that, if my daughter's in the room, she might be filming, as soon as if I'm going to do that, I can hear, bleh, got to go.

So, you know, it's not every Dom's cup of tea either. It's a two-way thing, so I don't touch them sexually. But I do CBT. So obviously that involves their genitalia. Sorry, can you tell us what CBT is? Cock and ball torture. Okay. As opposed to, you know, therapy.

I did think that. I was like, well, that's the best. Although a lot do consider me their therapist. I'm not surprised. tell me so much they've never told anybody else. But yeah, so it's involved. What is it's involved? Well, electrics.

I've got a easter, which is... Taser, that sounds too much. No, it's, I do have a, I've got a wand thing. It's a cattle prod that I do prod a bit. But no, my proper electrics, I've got all fitments. I do all sorts of different things. I've got an electric glove. Wow.

For the... A kind of wand thing. Yeah, you put the blow. love on and then. Oh, God, and grab it. Jesus, that sounds so painful. That sounds so painful. But they like it?

Well, not at the time. I mean, you know, they do. I don't, I mean, if they haven't got a safe word, I do say, because if I give safe words, if they use a safe word, then the sessions at the end. But I love to hear, I beg you, mistress. So I do tell them that. Now, you'd be amazed how many forget and blurt out the safe word because they're in that sort of panic state instead of saying, I beg you mistress. So I do kind of say, don't forget, I beg you mistress.

Because they'd be disappointed at this session. Yeah, because then I will stop a bit and then do something else or whatever, you know. So I beg your mistress is like a yellow card? Yeah, kind of. Yeah. It's like a warning. But are you constantly monitoring them to see, like, as well. Yeah.

How far it's going. Yeah. Can I ask you like just something that's probably way too intimate a question? With like CBT, would the aim for them be ejaculation or is that not? But does it happen? Sometimes if I'm doing sounding, it does. But I do punish them because it's absolutely. not allowed.

Okay. Sorry to keep asking. What's sounding? Well, you've got a sounding rod. Okay. So do I need to say any more? Yes, we are so rubbish. You've got that there.

It's like digging for oil, you know. Oh. Oh, fine. And then that makes sometimes. Okay, but then they get in trouble. It's only happened in all the years. It's only happened once. Oh, really?

Yeah. I think that's going to probably be a surprise to people. Because I think when when you hear, you know, anything in this sort of realm, your mind goes to like, well, that's the gratification. Like that's what people are seeking out, right? Like that kind of like finality. It's quite interesting that that's not actually the sort of end game. Yeah. Yeah.

But there are, there are some doms that will do queening and that sort of thing. they'll allow that. I don't. Sorry, we're sorry. We need a thorough. But I don't, I just don't. That's just like almost verging on being an escort because it's, you're taking money and you're letting them do sexual things to you. So that doesn't sit well with me at all.

We mentioned your brilliant Instagram highlight about gaslighting. and how women are treated in the media, which is something that we really wanted to talk to you about. And specifically, you detailed a process whereby women are set up, essentially, to be torn down. Can you just talk us through that? Yeah, it's a very specific system, and I'd sort of observed it since I was a kid

without really internalizing it, and just thought, well, that's normal. You know, basically a woman can only maintain good behavior for a year and a half, and it's probably her fault. That must have been my, like, internal misogyny. And so when I became famous, as I'm sure lots of different people who end up in this ridiculous scenario do, they think, well, I'll do it differently. I'll be better than those women before me. And then you get into it and you're like, oh, no, fuck.

The system is rigged. The game is rigged. And so it's a very, very precise machine where basically they pluck someone who they can see is garnering some kind of attention for whatever reason. they stick out, it might be the way that they look or their background or whatever project they're in, they pick that person, they elevate them above everyone else and then they start to hyperboise

how amazing they are all the time, constantly just over-regging, like saying that she's more beautiful than she is or she's smarter than she is, or she's more talented or more stylish and everything becomes very hyperbolic in the descriptions around them and they start to really overexpose this person

and so suddenly all you're seeing is this person everywhere, all the fucking time, And as the reader, you're like, Jesus Christ, how much press is this woman doing? Like, why is she in the headlines? And often, those aren't interviews that we're giving. There might be a tweet, reply that we've given to someone else or something that's literally just been pulled out of the reporter's ass. And they've just used the term source with, you know, with the quotes around it.

And they make up all kinds of shit about us. And so it seems like we are just constantly promoting ourselves, constantly putting ourselves out there. We are self-obsessed. They start to take these hyperbolic headlines about us. us like saying how amazing we are and put these kind of slightly smug-looking smiling photographs of us as if we are agreeing with the headline that we have never consented to. And by this point, the audience is so fucking on the readers and the public are so sick of us.

They're like, Jesus Christ, this woman is relentless, that then we are in a prime position to be ripped to pieces and then in comes the minor mistake or the misunderstanding or the complete smear and lie about us. and it travels like wildfire because our name has become very current and very relevant. And also everyone's ready to get rid of this bitch. I would be fucking sick of me. I was sick of the sight of my own face from what I saw, you know, the amount I saw of myself.

And I couldn't understand it. Like my publicists weren't even on my retainer. Like I didn't even have anyone putting anything out there about me. And yet I was constantly in the headlines. It was insane. And so then the fall comes. and it is spectacular because since the beginning of time, since Adam and Eve, there is something about our society that loves a disgraced woman,

loves the theatre of a disgraced fallen woman, of the fallen angel. And then we tear to pieces, she either kills herself, wants to kill herself, or just cancels herself and makes herself disappear, because women are told from birth to be liked, and the most important thing is to be liked and approved of and believed. And if that goes away, your worth is diminishing. therefore you should extract yourself from society because you have failed them. We do not have that.

We only have redemption stories for men. I always say that, you know, we don't give women the benefit of the doubt because we've spent it all on men. We have no benefit of the doubt left for women because we've given it all to men. And so once this woman is destroyed and has removed ourselves, boom, we just move on to the next target. And I think the pattern was harder to see back in the day because it was kind of, you know, we'd had less celebrities. It was just harder to become a celebrity. And so it would happen once every five years. It would be Jane Fonda and then Princess Diana or Marilyn Monroe.

And so these were kind of like spaced out by five years. But now that you've got a celebrity a fucking second, it's happening every single week. And so it's out of control. And now we're starting to see the pattern really clearly. And now I've lived the pattern. Now it's crystal clear to me and I understand what every woman's gone through. And now I'm just determined to use whatever.

ever's left of the last bits of success I have to warn everyone else that this is coming and to implore readers to not believe everything you read especially about women in the media and to know that our interviews are taken completely out of context they reconstruct sentences out of entire paragraphs we say everything you see is twisted and nulled through the lenge of misogyny yeah so you say like you you know you kind of seen it since you were a child but they did use this on you And like I wonder, were you able to clearly see what was happening and be like, this is happening? Or is it something that came to you later? And if it was happening kind of before you could really put your finger on it, how did it make you feel?

Was it just like horrifically isolating? Or did it affect your mental health before you could, you know, recognize it as a them problem rather than a you problem? I became a public figure twice. So I had a bit of warning from what happened to me at 26 when the sort of British media turned on me because I'd gained weight. back in the day when I joined Radio 1. So I knew what that felt like, but to a much smaller degree, because the UK is so small compared to US news,

which becomes global very fast. So I was kind of prepared when I got to America and when the hyperbole train was starting and everyone was like, she's the feminist hero we need. And I was like, I left school at 16. I don't know, fuck all.

Like, please don't put this pressure on me. I'm a feminist in progress. And they'd be like, no, she's Gandhi. She's motherfucking Gandhi. I knew I was fine. I knew I was fucked. Everyone like, you know, I, like in 2019, I was on the cover of Vogue. And in the same month, I was being named one of Time Magazine's 25 most influential people next to fucking, like, Harry and Megan and Donald Trump and Ariana Grande. And I was just like me off of T4 and Radio One. It happened

so fast. And I knew it was like that. It's that feeling at the top of like an Alton Towers ride, where they just keep you at the top for a second. And you're just like, oh my God, just drop, just just please just let it be over with. Like I just, I know what's coming. And that's what that whole of 2019 felt like. So when 2020 hit, I wasn't super surprised, but I didn't know how disgusting it would be and I didn't know how much women would enjoy taking me to pieces. That was insane. It wasn't men. I thought it would be men. It was almost entirely women. Why do you think that women then are the ones that take most pleasure in that and seeing other women being, you know, being torn down or taken down a peg? Well, I think because we're pitted against each other from the minute we can

understand. We're told there can only be one. And we're told to compete with each other. And we're told that a one woman's achievements or one woman being special on the limelight means that we can't have that. And that's not fucking true. That's just a scarcity mindset put into us by men. There's so many fucking men who look the same. They do the same shit. They sound the same. They act the same. They sing the same. And we seem to just have endless space for all of them. But there can only be this one woman. So I think I think we have a, and we, I think we also just have a natural distrust of women because of how everything has been set up that way. Women are placed throughout biblical texts, throughout literature, throughout film as the inconvenience for a man, the one who

manipulated, the one who lied, the one who beguiled a man and then led him astray. It's just constant programming of like, I don't trust her. We don't trust women and we don't trust a woman who seems to be good or trying to do the right thing. We're like, what's her angle here? Like, there must be an angle. And I think that's just training. And I know I've had it.

Fucking hell, I was a massive misogynist until I was like, 27, which is really old. But, you know, it was a different time. And so, you know, it's just, we're all figuring it out. But also, you know, we just got to be trained to see the signs. Once you can see the signs, you see them everywhere. Look at Megyn Markle. pregnant, pregnant.

And our country ripped her to pieces. Taylor Swift, her documentary, so illuminating about the fact that you are really as a woman only allowed about a year at best of grace before your time is up. Jennifer Lawrence, Anne Hathaway. Like, just the list just goes on. Amy Schumer.

Kira fucking Knightley. Yeah, that's actually a really good point, isn't it? Because not many women are forgiven for... No, men happen all the time. Men get given the GQ redemptive article. like, I mean, Shaila Buff is working right now. I just saw a picture of him on set filming. What the fuck?

Are you kidding me? Emil Hirsch working. Amil Hirsch strangled my friend in front of hundreds of people and got like put in prison for it and is still working with A-list celebrities. Like women wouldn't be allowed to do this shit. If a woman smiles the wrong way, Anne Hathaway just pre-prepared her fucking Oscar speech.

Who isn't pre-pre-pre-paring their fucking Oscar speech? their fucking Oscar speech. Right, of course. Like, you know, and she got destroyed for it and had to, like, withdraw from society. I've pre-for-bed an Oscar speech and I'm never going to win an Oscar. It's just something that you've all got to do, right? I mean, just like, but when men fuck up, we do the, like, redemptive article in GQ or whatever, or Esquire.

And, you know, he talks about his difficult childhood and how he had, like, a difficult dad and, like, how he's been to rehab and he's working on himself. And we're like, oh, what a brave self-reflective king. love him, like so sexy the way that he can look into. Women don't even get that chance. Women don't get the comeback. We're just allowed to maybe creep back into society. So 2020, I was just a bit like, okay, I do want to kill myself.

I do want to, like I literally wanted to kill myself. I had to be put on medication. And I do want to leave this industry and really just like live a peaceful life and go back to working in a video shop when I was really, really happy. But they don't exist anymore. And I do like. Like everything does feel like it's just over for me and they won. And then I was like, what would a white man do?

A white man would probably just stick around and just fuck around and find out. And so I was like, well, I've got nothing to lose now because I've been shat on by the world. So why don't I just do the white man thing for a while and just keep going and just carry on and pick myself back up, learn from it and just go forward? and I did and then I booked fucking Marvel and all my shows got renewed and then I ended up having an amazing year in my career and I was like oh my God women don't know that you don't have to leave Whohoo! Someone's got to tell women you don't have to leave

You should stay, stay and it blows over and life goes on and then people forget, people literally sometimes DM me being like I know I don't like you but I don't remember why can you please tell me what you did and I'm like just fuck like fuck off Oh my God It's a perfect example of the day to do your own research perfect example of the fact that we just like we don't like it just it passes shit passes however heinous it is i got accused of mad shit and then it just moved on the world moved on there's so many

worse things happening in the world it's really as a woman wherever you this isn't just celebrity like if you're at school if you are at work if you are at college or uni and this shit is being spread about you it feels like the world is ending and that that that the world is just within the four walls of whatever your environment may be it isn't life goes on you can come back from this you can come back stronger and better from this and that is what i'm sticking around for is to remind everyone because a lot of the cancellation happens inside of women we withdraw we deny ourselves opportunities we think no everyone's sick of me i shouldn't fuck them they'll fucking forget they'll literally forget just carry on and so that's what i'm trying to

represent is like you know whether you've made a mistake or whether a mistake was made up Just carry on. Persist. You deserve the right. You deserve the chance to carry on. And no one gets to tell you when you're done and when you finish growing and learning. But you.

This next part of the podcast is brought to you by Indeed. So as you know on this podcast, we have looked into a lot of the polarising conversations happening online. And when it comes to the world of work, something which has struck me in recent years is the discourse around work culture. And I guess by that, I mean maybe more specifically flexible working and what the

landscape of work looks like nowadays. Totally. There's been a big shift in our expectations, on our thoughts about what culture in a business and a workplace actually means, which has made the conversation feel quite divided at times. Oh, 100%. I actually think it's a really interesting thing watching these very passionate debates happening now. We're seeing them aired with increasing regularity on sort of daytime TV and stuff as politicians and commentators weigh in. And I think it feels quite a big generational divide. I think there's a lot of like old school thinking, which is needing to be in the office, needing to protect workplace culture, needing to push for hardworking. I have to say I'm on the other side of that, particularly now having kids,

seeing the stats around flexible working for a start. It shows that a performance actually goes up and generally I don't know the exact numbers, but revenue businesses tend to be more successful if they allow it. But also, I mean, from a perspective of the gender pay gap, from a perspective of quality of life of keeping women in the workplace, like it feels so important to me, the flex for working is clear. But I guess these are the debates that I'm referencing. These are the conversations people are having. And I think it's more important now than ever to have a good work-life balance, especially now we know the stats around how important that is. for productivity and for working.

Yeah, for sure. And like we've seen as employers even here, the need to protect the community that your business is, right? Like you need that time together. You need to make sure everybody's being cared for. But I think it's a bit more complicated than that, like you're in or you're out type thing. There's got to be a hybrid system

and a place that we can get to where flexible working becomes the norm. Otherwise, we're just going to see people, pushed out as we always historically have done. Particularly mothers. Exactly. Yeah. Since becoming a mom, I have realized so deeply the importance of flexible working in a way that I just, it never struck me before. No, and I guess the amazing thing that we have now is the opportunity to work from home. And I really do understand as well, like if I'm alone for too long, you do get isolated and it's not very motivating. There is a place for an office, 100%. And I think a lot of employees,

particularly younger ones will say that. But again, it can't be as simple, surely, as coming in, if you don't have to, coming in every single day, it's a lot of money spent on the commute. It's a lot of time away from home from other commitments, from things that don't necessarily budges flexibly. Like, when I hear these debates, it feels polarising for polarising's sake. It feels the sort of like boomer bingo button that people keep pressing.

And I don't understand why, because all the data shows that this is a good step for increasing productivity but also mental well-being. It's changing mindset, isn't it? Because for previous generations, it's been you have to be in the office every single day. You have to do these hours, the 9 to 5 or the 8 to 4. And it's a culture of like work very hard to yourself completely into work to the detriment of your personal life. 100%. I mean, it's a hangover from the industrial days when we had to do this. And you couldn't do work from home. And it's changing that mindset in companies who still have people, I guess, at the top who are from that era and who expect that from their employees. So that's difficult.

That's where the tension and the friction is. Of course. And obviously there are some jobs where you can't work from home. But I think moving to a place where we recognize that not everybody needs that and not everybody wants that and that's okay. I think identifying what you want your work to look like is an important part of this. And identifying what you want your workplace. and what you want the business's sort of workplace culture to be, before you apply for a job, that feels really important, that transparency from the off. Totally. The culture of a business is pivotal

in deciding how we're going to get on in a job. But how do you find out the information that you need about a business before applying for a role in the first place? This is where the Indeed Work Wellbeing score comes into play. Tell me more. With pleasure. Now, this is all based on the world's biggest work-wellbeing study, which is made up from over 15 million surveys and counting from people who have been there and done it.

That is a serious amount of data. It all helps you understand how businesses you are interested in rate for factors like stress, job satisfaction and that sort of thing. That's so great. And using this can help you find a company that's right for you, not just the role itself. I'm sure most of us have had a job that we didn't actually mind, but the whole atmosphere and approach to work just fell off. Yeah, exactly. And you should know as much as you can about a business and it's culture when applying for a job. Factors like stress, job satisfaction and fair pay. Indeed can help you find a job where they matter to the business that you're working for just as much. So to create your Indeed profile today and find a job that's the right fit, whatever a positive workplace

culture means to you, download the Indeed app. Biggest ick that the girls give you. I'll handle that one. Not collectively. What's the biggest it? And gives you. They've already said it like more Tisha this morning. Did he? No. And he came in and he goes, Hey, Jeffrey. You do look like Dharma.

So Emma's got a bit of more tissue vibes going on with the dress. I knew. It's the bottom, not necessarily the whole dress. You stop looking at her bottom. No, the bottom of the dress. I knew when I walked in and Dave looked at me, I was like, something's coming and I'm not sure it's going to be kind. Anyway.

Anyway, the current ick with Al is her ability to... Oh, I'm scared. to... Snore. No. Damage a pair of socks within a day of them being fresh on

as in new out of the packet and having her little toes creeping through the holes and she'll put... She's going to put her feet up now and all the rest of it and there's a little peekie peek out of the toe.

You make me feel sick now. You're giving me the egg. I look at it and I go, well... Considering this week we literally had to cut her wedding ring off I think the fact that it's her toes

It's saying a lot about where we are. But it's happened on multiple occasions. It's like a reoccurring nightmare. And do you put the socks back on then and know where the toe holes are? Are your toenails really long? This has happened like, come on, Dave, like once. Three times.

Okay. So does you wear it up again? Yes. So she'll re-offend. Reoffend. Yeah. Repeat offender. I get it. Well, you kind of get it because you buy a pair of socks and then day one there's already a hole. Correct.

So yeah, that's my current egg. Yeah, there you go. That's such a weird ick. Come on. The way it happens is Al's feet go across. Oh, don't ask. And I'm looking at the TV and the feet are sort of like there. Move out then, honestly.

That's a solution. Just go. I think you could thrive in most circumstances, but as a single mother, I don't see it for you. Neither do you mind. I don't think it's quite right. Keep in for now. Yeah.

So that's my code. Alex, do you have an egg? I do. Let's start this car. Come on then. That's a nice phrase. I like that. Start the car.

I have fear. It's not bad. You stand by it. Oh, interesting. So, I don't know if anyone's seen recently on Instagram, but a lot of... Dave's just on LinkedIn. A lot of influencers have miniature microphones.

Oh. And it started to happen, and I was seeing it happen, and it has started to be like a viral issue that everyone has seemed to have contracted, and it just gives me such a strong ick. You're not Madonna. It's the fact that they kind of clip on as a little like, oh,

or you hold them even worse, like a little mouse microphone. Like, it just gives me such an ick. An M-bought one. Did you? I got two, actually. I got two for the price of one. For the purpose of what?

My career, Dave. So sorry, this is a little mic frame. Is it sound quality, I assume? Yeah, it is sound quality. I did record something with it and I gave myself the ink because I clipped into the thing. hotel dressing room,

rope. I was like, oh no. And is it confidently better than... I don't think so. Okay, excellent. But you know what?

She feels confident and she thinks she looks cool. But that gives you the... Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. While you're on it, Al, have you got an egg for Dave? I quite like the microphone.

I get what you mean. Have you got one yet? I got one ages ago and they lost it. I don't know where it is. Do you want my other one? Yeah. I got two on there. Put it in place for you.

Oh, God, a nick. Oh, God. We're all thinking it. I need to think. Oh, yeah, Alex is his... I know the ick already. Alex has got Geoffrey Dalma glasses. That's his...

That's his... That's his... That's his... Yeah, it's in the room. I think Alex's ick should be cross-fit. There's nothing... I'm actually... I stand by that.

He hasn't been for two weeks. He's letting himself go. The dream's over. Oh, my God. The dream is over. I know. I'm actually round. Real crossfitters

would not go off for two weeks. No, no. No, no. No, no. He's going to really upset him. Don't say that. Sorry. Sorry, sorry.

You are a real crossfitter Alex. He'll go home and get upset about that. I'm a real boy. Go on, Al. What are you thinking? I can't think of one. What are you thinking? What are you pointing at, Dave?

Oh, no, that isn't it? We've talked about this on the podcast before. What are you pointing at? He's pointing down, but hang on. I did point that it's willing to be. I mean, if I want is there, I've got problems. But, no, it's my belly button. We've talked about this before.

The fluff. I love the fluff in Alex's belly button. I make you so, so good. It makes you feel like... Sick. Because I can see it and it's disgusting. I like to fish it out. It's weird.

It's weird. I ask to. Yeah, she does. And it's weird because it's always the same colour. It's so weird. It depends on your t-shirt you're wearing. No. No. He's always dark grey.

It doesn't matter if he's born white. Maybe that's so. Today's t-shirt. That's an appointment with the belly button consulting on my shoulder. That's a bit weird. Okay. Same colour. Always same colour.

Mine's always different. I have a question. Are the girls different in real life compared to their online personas? No. Well, I'm not sure of your online personas. I only have face value to go on. So I can't really answer that question.

No, I think obviously I spend more time with M than I do with Al. But I think M's pretty much the same. Yeah, I think all the same. Not enough. Yeah. I think it would be very tiring to be someone else. To be someone else. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. What's the people kind of see through it as well if you're just kind of putting on a persona? Yeah, I guess so. I don't know. I feel like sometimes I'm more negative in real life than I ever am online,

but then my negativity is so short-lived that I don't know. Maybe I am, I don't know. No, I think you're on balance. Yeah, I think you're pretty much the same. Yeah. I'd say you are too. Yeah. Yeah.

I think so. I think I'm more quiet online. I don't know. Yeah, it's because you can't, do it as you go. I can't. I can't. You can't do the multitasking.

Incapable. Yeah. So I think you're probably just quiet because I have to. You literally have to be. I'm silent for 24 hours and then suddenly there'll be like 50 stories for an hour and then I'm off again. Elusive. I like it. Isabel would like to know why you get changed to go to the corner shop.

Okay. Fair question. I don't like going outside the house and tracky bottoms because I think they're for insubes. the house when you're feeling a bit slobby. That's why I think it. What do you think about that? That's probably a lot of the audience are probably listening to this going, Fuck you. What a, yeah, correct, exactly. To be fair though, I did do it the other day. It's so controversial because I was very tired. I think I only got like three or four hours

sleep and I went to get some pastries. It does my head in that he gets changed to go, you should see the kip of me sometimes. So I call out the melting candle. I said to you last night, I looked like a melting candle. Because you're never sure where a body is under everything that she's wearing and she's got like these long jumper, t-shirt, trousers and then the holy socks. But like everything going on and you're like, it's like it's all dripping off her. Yeah, it's very weird. Are you with me?

Like that description doesn't really sell it, does it? No, it doesn't. So my story, I was in. I was introduced to gambling at eight years old. My dad and my granddad used to play cards, and it wasn't until my property teens that I realised that my dad had a problem with gambling. When I was 18, I was taken to my first casino

on my 18th birthday, just me and my dad. And I remember walking into the casino and just seeing all the flashing lights and the roulette tables and the poker tables. And, you know, and I put 50p on number 27 on the roulette and it came in and I won 18 pounds and I thought like well you know like 30 seconds later I've won 18 quid

in my sort of 20s I would say that I never crossed the line of addiction to gambling it was always under control I had my two children when I was 23 and 24 unfortunately my daughter Georgia was starved of oxygen at birth which resulted in me giving up my career to become Georgia's full-time carer.

So when I did go to the casino, it was like an escape from me, from what was going on in my own personal life. And it was when I was 29, I went to the casino with my sister and four other people. And there was a progressive jackpot on the poker, which was linked up to all the casinos around the country. And that night, I won 127,000 pounds off a pound.

and that was the night that changed my life forever. So the casino sort of like, it was Chinese New Year. It was meant to up the casino. I had people coming up to me and touching me because they thought I was this lucky sort of spirit. And the casino just basically sat me down and said, look, you've 127 grand. What do you do?

I said, I'm a full-time carer. They was like, oh my God, this is fantastic. This is going to make great news. you know, winning all this money. They enticed me back. No one ever sat me down and said, you've won life-changing money. My mortgage was 65 grand.

And I didn't pay my mortgage off and for the next 16 years until I was 45. I gambled every day. So it's very sad to say, but I ended up homeless on the streets with my children through my gambling and lost about half a million pound over that time. So it's sad and as a woman, it's, you know, even sad because I didn't have anyone to talk to.

That's the really, like, strikes me like the cruel nature of gambling. Is it on one hand it can give you this huge high, probably high, that you've never experienced before. And then on the other side of it is, it's, this like devastating, like debilitating impact of all the loss? I think, you know, like what I do want to say is that I'm not addicted to anything else. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't take drugs. It was the gambling and obviously that day when I won that 127 grand,

I should imagine it was like someone doing a line of cocaine, someone getting drunk, the high, the buzz that it left me on. I've got all this money now. but the reality of it was that the gambling just led me into a complete despair in my life, you know, where every day I needed to gamble and I just couldn't ever see a way out of it. I'm so sorry for you. That's like, that's been horrible. When you, that night you won that money, what was your home situation?

You had your two kids and you were caring for your daughter? Yeah, so I had, yeah, I had my turn. children. I owned my own house and I was in a relationship. I gave my sister £20,000 and we went to America, me and the kids. I then found Vegas, you know, compulsive gamblers dream, you know, going to Vegas. And it was when I was 35 that I ended up homeless and losing everything through gambling. And when I went up to the council and said, you know, this is, like, you know, I'm homeless. And they said, why? And I said, because I'm addicted to gambling.

And she said, we wish it had been a drug addict or an alcoholic because what do we do with a compulsive gambler. And that day, and that was 15, like, I'm 50 now. But that day, it was the worst day of my life because I just felt so ashamed. And as a woman with a gambling addiction, why doesn't anyone understand me? Why isn't there any help for me? If I was a drug addict or an alcoholic, people would signpost me somewhere and I could go into rehab. But why isn't anyone coming out and saying, Lisa, this is what you could do? So I've carried a lot of guilt and shame around with me for a long time.

But since being in recovery, I know now that I was ill and I needed to get that help. And that's what I did. We've learned so much even just from having these conversations because like you say, our vision or my vision particularly was always of men gambling and of men down the football, men down the races. So we talked before to the others about how this culture is crazy for just like promoting these behaviours that are addictions

and they're really unhealthy and no other country does it like we do it with drinking and gambling. And it's so commonplace that you don't. take your kids to the pub, you take your kids to the races. And it's just like, I feel like other nations would look at us and be like, don't do that. What are you doing? Leave them at home.

Definitely. So we know that stigma can be something that impacts women in particular. Was there something that you experienced? So no one ever confronted me about my money problems while I was gambling. Problem gambling is a very easily hidden habit, unlike drink or drugs. Obviously, with both of them, you have signs to look at. hurt for. I definitely experienced stigma around my gambling, which meant I felt scared and embarrassed to reach out. I just wish that I just wish that I could have reached out and I wish I would

have been signed posted. You know, if someone could have said to me, like Lisa, this is where you can go for, you know, to get help because all I ever knew about was Gamblers Anonymous, and which we'll talk about in a minute because it was Gamblers Anonymous that saved me without a shadow of a doubt. But other than that, and I'm going back, you know, 15, 20 years ago, where a woman gambling was like, what, you know, what the hell, it's, it is men, you know, and that's why I felt so, I don't know, just so alone, you know. What was it, if you don't mind saying that took you from? So what happened was I got married in Vegas, my third wedding.

My two failed marriages before was because of my gambling. So 45 years old, five years ago I got married in Vegas. Flew 15 of us out there to Vegas. My son gave me away on my wedding day. And we spent the evening in a casino where the drink was flowing. I don't drink, so I knew everyone was going to get. drunk and which I was quite pleased about because I knew that I could go back to my hotel and gamble. So I got in a cab in my wedding dress and went off for the whole night on my own,

didn't go to my wedding party and I got a payday loan out in England, wired to my bank account in America and I gambled till 6am in the morning. When I finally got into bed at 6am at 6am, when my husband woke up he said what time did you get in and I said two and straight away I'm married and I'm starting my marriage on a lie got back from Vegas

and my rock bottom was the first of April 2018 so I borrowed I asked my son if I could borrow £2,000 to pay off this payday loan and my son is a carpet fitter and he works really hard for his money and he lent it to me He put it in my bank

and I was at Tesco's at the time and it hit my bank account and I knew that the bookies was a minute away and within 35 minutes I'd spent the £2,000 on the fobty machines which are the fixed odds, betting terminals and they were £100 a spin at the time and I remember losing that £2,000

and walking back to my car and just thinking like Lisa you need help you, you know, this is it now. I think the next thing's deaf because I felt, not because I felt suicidal, but my body couldn't take it physically. My heart felt like it was going to pound out my chest.

You know, I wasn't looking after myself. You know, now I've borrowed this money off my son. You know, what am I doing? So, yeah, so I reached out to Gamblers Anonymous again. I was told, get back in the rooms. And I went back and what was different this time was I listened, started to listen. I dropped this big ego personality that I've got.

I gave everything to Gamblers Anonymous. I told everybody I know, friends, family, got them all around, told them everything. People cried that knew me for years that didn't realise what I was going through. My mum and my husband went to Gammonon, which is the biggest room in Essex for families with addiction. because they wanted to learn more about it. I handed over my finances. I've done everything that was told to do. And that's when my recovery started taking off.

Any woman that's out there listening to this who thinks that they may have got a problem with gambling or a partner thinks they may have, don't suffer in silence, don't suffer, you know, reach out, get the help you need. Listen, I ended up losing everything and I've turned my life around now. You know, I'm not rich, I don't live in a big ass,

but I'm the happiest I've ever been there because I'm not gambling. Yeah. And I'm, you know, and I'm helping people and I love it. I think something that I haven't got an answer on, so fair enough if you don't, but I would be interested to hear how you feel about people in the public eye-taking OZMPIC.

And particularly, and again, it's a small subsect, It's quite specific to where we are, but people who have long since celebrated their bodies or made a career out of celebrating their bodies or who have been fat representation or icons or whatever to hear, see, suspect that they're taking a Zempic. What do you thoughts? And do they owe us the Oprah Winfrey confessional? This is such a tricky one. And for people who are like just joining us for this body image series,

you probably won't have heard that we've actually discussed this topic at length and try to come to some sort of conclusion on this because it is so difficult. And I think, again, it comes back to that I understand an individual's desire to take this drug, no matter what area they're in, no matter how hard they've campaigned for fat acceptance or body positivity, I understand that it's still going to be very tempting and I understand them taking it.

And I genuinely don't cast any judge. on them for it. Do I think that it gets muddier when it becomes a question of moral responsibility when this person has a platform and has been using this platform prior

to, you know, discuss the virtues of self-acceptance and body positivity? Yes, I think that's, then it's really difficult then. But this, it's hard to draw a conclusion on this because it also feels unprecedented. We had the body positivity movement,

which has not happened the way it happened so mainstream ever, and followed so swiftly by this, the Olympic phenomenon. I just, I don't know the right course of action for people who want to take it, but feel like they have a moral responsibility to their audience not to. How do you feel even when people, okay, scrap the audience, because that's unique and unusual and relevant to us, but not really to everybody else.

How do you feel when celebrities are taking it? Do you think they should be telling us that they're taking it? Or do you think that by telling us they're promoting it? Do they owe us transparency? I think a bit of both. I think it's both. You can't do it both, though. No, as in, I think on one hand, it's, I don't think they,

I don't think they owe as the transparency, no, I don't think so. I think they are at the behest of a huge giant, like this industry that is like screaming at them to be thin. And I think whatever means that they have to do to survive in that world, like go for it. Like that's your prerogative and I get it. I don't think they owe it to us. I think it's good if they are transparent and they are open and they say this is how I lost the weight.

I think on one hand that's good because it's not creating any like false expectations. with other people or false standards. So in that sense, I think it's good. But on another hand, it's also promoting it. Of course it is. I think it's both. So then we can't win. No, we can't win.

And that's the thing. That's the frustrating thing with this is again, on an end of it, and this is where we land with it, is that, not we, you and I, but I think this is where it lands, is that it's another diet, whatever, whatever product, like marketing technique, whatever it is, that puts it all on the individual's plate

and leaves us in a situation where we can't win. You go back to any one of these episodes, you can't be positive enough in your body, going back before with wellness, you can't be healthy enough. You're never, you're doing hit. Shouldn't you be doing Pilates? Like, whatever it is, you go back before that and we're looking at diets and it's, oh, you should be doing

we shouldn't be talking about it. Oh, you do, oh, you've got to watch your weight, but you can't talk about it because diet's a boring. Like, it's another, and perhaps the most intense one yet, of an individual will never feel. I don't understand how an individual is supposed to feel empowered by the decision to take Ozempic or not to. Because you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

And you're damned if you do and then you don't. because you've, I mean, you're just really damned then. But it feels really unfair. It does. Overwhelmingly, I just feel like this is very unfair. Yeah. And I think it, what we're saying, it all all all points to shame, which I think is at the crux of all of this.

And it's, and it lives at the core of our body image issues. Absolutely. And I think what we both love, a huge takeaway from this entire topic to be is around the issue of shaming. it's a through thread of the entire series. And like you said, when it comes to body image, women especially are shamed no matter what, for being too thin, for being too fat,

for gaining weight, for losing weight. But to make things even more complicated for us within that last category, losing weight, lies another subset of shaming because our society has concrete views on what obesity is and what the morally acceptable ways to overcome it are, obesity is, like we said, considered a personal responsibility,

something that can simply be solved and managed by eating less and moving more and that therefore is the only defensible method of losing weight and anything deemed a quick fix for the easy way out which is how Ozempic is viewed because it takes away the typical diets need for self-control and willpower

doesn't pass and predictably is accompanied by a ton of shame that's it you know it's like coward's way out easy way out it's the language is poisonous and we strongly believe that we need to swap shame for compassion because we are merely trying to survive and thrive in a society that

values us for thinness. And of course, we will take whatever measure, including OZMPIC or whatever comes next. Why would we be shame for that? How can you shame, given everything we've given you in the context of this situation, there's just no way you can shame an individual for this. But look, no matter what our individual personal opinions are on weight loss injections, we think it's safe to say that Ozenpic has changed the landscape of diet culture and potentially irreversibly. And I guess that remains to be seen, but it doesn't feel outside the realms of possibility. Generational dieting trauma. Please could you explain to us what this is? So I think what we're really referring to here is how our ideas about our bodies, weight and eating and probably dieting in particular.

get passed down across generations in families. And often what people think about is mothers and how mothers have passed this down to their children and how that continues. What we know from the research, though, it's not just moms. It's also dads. It's also extended family members, particularly if you come from a collectivist culture,

done a lot of research with South Asian people and their family and their extended family is very important and a lot of them can remember aunties and uncles making comments about their appearance. And what happens is we experience that as children and then what unfortunately will happen is we can then pass it on to our own children or the young people that we have in our lives. And so it's basically how this cycle continues of diet culture, but also disorder eating and low body confidence gets passed down through generations. It may evolve. slightly over time in terms of what is discussed and how it manifests.

But essentially it's that passing down. And sometimes people are aware of it and sometimes they're not. It's interesting. It's come from dads. We had that conversation recently and it's something we hadn't considered ourselves. But good that it's not just on moms. However, that does feel like a big like connection that we can see at least anecdotally, that kind of seems like a very, or even personally, that's a, that's a place that

like I think I probably first became aware of dieting was from my own mum. Why were our moments, in your opinion, why were our mum's generation so intent on instilling the virtuiness of thinness in us? And how do you think that harmed us as individuals and as a collective? Yeah, I think my mum and I've talked about this as well. I went to Weight Watchers when I was 13. but I also know, and my mom says to me now, oh my God, you must tell people this story and they must be horrified. And I'm like, Mom, you also went to Weight Watchers when you were younger. And my Nana, who I am very close to my mum and I was very close to my Nana,

she also went to Weight Watchers. And so it's a really tricky one. I think as I'm not a parent, but you both are. And I think most parents try to do the best that they can with what they know. And I think women historically have society has been shaped in a way such that women are valued based upon how they look. And weight has been central to that and thinness has been glorified. And also generationally, if you look at baby boomers and before that, they were still of a generation where education, where education, workplace opportunities, and all sorts of those things were incredibly

unequal between women and men, and women were highly valued for how they look. Of course, we still have those problems today, but they were even more so back then. So when I think about it, and I still hear people tell me now that, you know, my mum and I have had lots of conversations, and now she's a bit of the body image advocate in her own circles, but still experience that and they may be more aware of body positivity and body image themselves, but they go home or they talk to their parents and they're still kind of their mums in particular, still heavily focused on weight. I have a lot of compassion and empathy for the individuals, the parents and the children of this cycle. And I have a lot of frustration

and anger about the society that perpetuates this so often we think about blaming individuals. but there are bigger forces at play that everyone has been exposed to, particularly in those generations. The original body positivity movement was really in the 70s with black, fat activists in North America. Well, my mom grew up in New Zealand, and I'm pretty sure there was no body positivity, and they didn't have social media.

It was mainstream culture. So it's all of those factors combined, which is why I think this is happening. Of course, now we also have a. really strong conflation between weight and health. So it sometimes can be teasing and negative comments quite explicit, but sometimes it's through concern. I genuinely think the reason my mom took me to Weight Watchers is I was probably, I can remember being teased about my weight when I was in grade four and specific things. And I would have been coming home and telling her about that. And back then weight loss was very normalized. It still is to an extent. And that was sold as a

solution. So she wanted me to feel good about myself. So she took me to Weight Watchers. Now she would think differently, but that's probably because she has a daughter who specialises in body image and is a professor of psychology. Not everyone has that. And not everyone like your listeners has access or has thought about body positivity in this way. So I have a lot of compassion and empathy for individuals, a lot of anger and frustration at the system and society. For anyone listening who has and historically has had this complicated relationship with their mums or another parent or, you know, extended family members, do you think, I mean,

you said that you, you, you, we believe that we owe them compassion. Do we owe them forgiveness? Would you encourage anyone listening to try and forgive their family for? or passing on generational dieting trauma? I think that's so nuanced and complex that I think everyone's situation is different and also that can place a lot of burden on the victim, even though the perpetrator might be a victim as well.

So I don't think I have a blanket response to that idea of forgiveness. I think probably taking a step back to think about why they're doing what they're doing, what pressures they've been exposed to, might create a little bit of a buffer between your intensity of your emotions to that person. It might not absolve them though. And, you know, I think one of the other things, although I think compassion is important, boundaries are important too.

So you can be compassionate, but you can also set boundaries to be like, I don't, you know, that doesn't make me feel comfortable or I don't want to talk about weight or dieting or eating with you because of these reasons. And if someone continues to do that when you've tried to set a boundary, well, no, that's not okay, even if they've experienced those things. So I think setting healthy boundaries and being like, you know, if they continue to transgress those boundaries, if you do this, then I will do this, which I will remove myself from that situation or I, you know, I'll do whatever.

So I think it's complex. and I think the compassion, though, doesn't mean you can't set boundaries, and it doesn't mean that you have to put up with something that makes you feel uncomfortable. What is important to know, though, is that when we experience that and we can have awareness of the pain that it caused, there's research showing that if you experience it, you're more likely to pass it down to your children as well. So there's this amazing study which has been going on for over 20 years

in the US. It's called Project Eat, and it's by a group of researchers that's led by a woman called Professor Dianne Newmark Steiner, and they have been tracking who were teenagers in 1998, 1999. They're still tracking them now, so over 20 years, and they've been measuring their body image,

their eating behaviours, their weight, other health markers, and now a lot of those teenagers are parents themselves. And they've been publishing studies over the years. And one of the most recent studies, because we've had a lot of research just kind of showing a correlation between if you experienced diet talk and that kind of stuff when you were growing up, you're likely to have worse body image. But we hadn't actually tracked them over time and then seeing how it gets passed again to the next generation. And in this study

of over 500 adolescents, they found that if these teenagers grew up experiencing encouragement to diet or discussions about weight talk, they were more likely to have low body confidence, problematic relationship with food or a complex relationship with food, disordered eating the things that we're talking about now. Interestingly, those same adolescents now have their own children and in their home environments now, there's a greater weight focus as well. So there's a sense that by being aware of this, you can grieve that experience and then also think about how we're going to disrupt that and change it for the next generation, whether you're a parent or not, thinking about the young people around you.

And I got engaged on the Saturday, found out he'd been cheating on me on the Sunday, and ended it at 4 a.m. the next morning. And it was one of those moments in life where it's like before and after. Like I was like, nothing will ever be the same. And like not just in our relationship, but like who I am as a person. And I've never had a moment in my life where like your whole future just shatters overnight. And like any, I'm a planner.

Like I know where my life is going. And even in my career, like I've always been like five year goal, 10 year ago. And I literally was like, you have no answers right now. Stop trying to look for answers. We live hour by hour. And that is literally what I did from April 13th until, to be honest, until now, I'm still living hour by hour. I'm like just get three the next day. Oh, bloody hell. A fucking whirlwind.

Oh my God, you poor thing. That is like, that is literally the definition of like life turned upside down overnight, isn't it? Well, some more context around it is the fact that that engagement photo was actually the first time I'd shared my partner, which is why it was revealed in on my engagement photo because I, I'd had a partner for three years, but I'd never shared him because I haven't enough friends in this industry. I've seen people go through public breakups. I've never personally wanted to go through one. And silly me thinking that an engagement meant something or a ring meant something at some certainty of like, great, okay, this person's going to be in my life. And so in

posting the photo, it was also showing his face for the first time, which is how the woman who DM'd who was a follower of mine had literally DM'd me back in 2021 before I'd even met him, thanking me for my books, actually thanking me because she was so insecure around dating and I gave her the confidence to date, which was the irony. But it's also why a lot of people are like, you know, the stereotype of the Hey Girlie DM,

like, why would you believe them? And I was like, because it wasn't, it was someone I had replied to and said, thank you so much, really appreciate your support. And she was like, I tell all my friends about you. And this was like months before I met him. And then it was the fact I shared the photo. She recognized him from the photo.

sent me a message and was like, hey, and it was about an hour after I'd posted it. Oh my God. And yeah, I've been through some shit. Like, I've had 15 surgeries. I've had, I've lived through the tsunami in Pouquet, like, in 2004. Like, I have been through some shit and I have never had an experience in my life where, like, I didn't eat for, like, I think it was a week. Like, I was having, like, nibbles and people were forcing me to eat things.

But, like, the first night, I think I slept for one hour. I pretty much like my sleep, my eating, just to say I was in shock was not really like, it doesn't sum it up. Like it's just, there were days I just stared out of the window and just my brain was trying to just exist. Were you with him when you received that DM? So we were actually on the phone to his brother because we're told my, so we're told everyone we knew the day before when the day we got engaged. but that morning we told my family because my family are in Hong Kong and so they were all asleep by the time we'd got engaged and then we spoke to his brother because his brother was in a pub

when we had called him so we were having a proper conversation and the message simply was like hey is your fiancé and his name I'd had that message before I'd actually had that message from a family friend so I actually thought it was a colleague like oh one of his colleagues happens to follow me and is like just put the dots together yeah like I trusted him so much there was no part of me that thought it was weird even to the point where he went to the bathroom straight after, came back, I was like, I was just sick.

And I went, oh no, did you eat something? And then we carried on watching Grey's Anatomy. I literally didn't think twice about it. Like, I mean, you guys get tons of DMs. Like, you see a DM, you see it for a moment. And then we were two minutes into watching Grey's Anatomy. I paused it. It was like, oh, by the way, who is that person?

There was a high chance I would have forgotten about it. Like, oh, she didn't say in the DM. She didn't say it. She just said, is this and his name. God, there's so many sliding doors. there because you could have not opened the message. Also, what are the chances that of all the DMs I've got, I actually had replied to her four years ago, but also can you imagine my DMs on the day I had announced my engagement

but also shown the number of DMs, the chance I saw that and the fact that it came into the like primary section where my family and friends, there was a real feeling of I'm being protected. And like I have, I've always been a little bit spiritual, but like there was something like I was, it's the worst thing to find out the day after you get engaged that he's cheating on you, but it's what's worse. It's finding out the day after you get married. And I was almost not going to share that photo.

I was going to share when we got married because we were only going to, we were going to do it this summer anyway. We're going to lope and it was going to be a quick thing. And because I didn't want to, because I'm writing a friendship book, I'm writing chapters about bridesmaids and all of that stuff. And it was just all in my head. And I was like, I don't want to do this to my friendships. And so I was like, I was writing this book and I was like, I just, I can't, whenever we talked about weddings, I was like, I don't want to go through the picking of maid of honour, like, dissect ranking my friendships. All of that started feeling really like unhealthy to me. So we had, we basically had decided we were eloping that summer.

So I was actually just going to wait for the wedding photo. I was just, I was just so glad I found. I just, I couldn't thank her. more like it was such a brave thing for her like I'm gonna get emotional but like it's such a brave thing for her to do to message me like as she like really just like save me like but I I don't even know if I would have had the bravery to message someone that because it could have flipped on her like I am fully aware it could have flipped on her and I could have been like out of like shared the screenshot like you want to ruin my engagement obviously like you know

me like I'm not that kind of person but she doesn't know me like she didn't know she followed me but she didn't know like that I wouldn't react that way but yeah an amazing woman who also like stayed on the phone with me for an hour and told me like all the information which at that point was so important because like I just didn't believe a word he said at that point so I was like I need to hear like I really like need to hear it from you like what's happened and it must have been a shock for her too yeah and also she like whenever because we spoke of few times and she was like honestly you've just all you've done is help my love life and I feel awful for ruining yours and I was like you didn't ruin mine you saved me no she's she is she in a

weird way like blessing in disguise yeah gave you a kind of gift and a yeah very disguised kind of way yeah no but genuinely and also it's it's why if you're ever in that position I'm always like just tell them even if they react badly just like give them the option to know because I was one of the ones who did want to know. Did he come clean when you said to him, who's this? Let's just message me. Initially, no.

Or was it her that had to tell you? It took about an hour, two hours. So she initially messaged that and then an hour later she sent screenshots. But he had already been acting weird to the, like, that I was like, what's happening here? Like, and I mean, I like to think I'm an emotionally intelligent woman. Like, I was like, why are you acting so weird? Like, and I, yeah, it was about an hour.

of like that and then she had sent the dating profile and he then admitted to another one and then later that day admitted to the third one so fuck dude you must have known this was going to happen when you posted photo of his face no it sounds really silly because the story has blown up so much now but I did not live a public life I had a public profile but I have never had paparazzi outside my house. I've taken him to public events. I took him to the James Bond premiere, like on our fifth day. I took him to like, I've taken him to so many public events.

He came with me to the Brits. There was one time a paparazzi did take a photo of us and I asked him to delete it and he did because that photo was not going to sell for anything. No one gives a shit who I am, frankly. It was only after this. They cared who he was and they cared who I was. But no one, we didn't live a public life.

So I think, yes, it's a number on a screen of how many followers I have. have on Instagram or TikTok. But like unless you're walking through the street and being stopped regularly, I don't think it's something in the forefront of your mind unless that's your lived experience. And the other two women he cheated on me with were in other countries. Like I don't know, potentially doesn't even speak English. Like, whereas this was one person who was in the UK. So she literally was the one person who like, I mean, the odds of following me are higher considering majority of my following are UK 20 to 30s.

So in my head, it actually was only her who could have told me. Also, there was nothing within the relationship that would have been a clue. I mean, I'm not the kind of person to go on his phone, but there was nothing on his phone anyway because he deleted it all. There are many reasons why people cheat. Sometimes it's the relationship, but sometimes it's themselves and their issues. And then also on the other side, some people want to be found out and some people don't want to be found out. he was the kind of person who didn't want to be found out.

Like, it's not the fact he wanted out of the relationship. Obviously, he wouldn't have proposed if he wanted out of the relationship. You know how sometimes people cheat almost as like the coward's way to like then be the way that you end it? I mean, I do think it was a version of self-destruction, but I don't think he actually wanted out of the relationship. And I don't think our relationship was the issue. I think he was dealing with demons, for lack of a better word. And he didn't deal with it in a very good way. but where I fall down on it is like when it comes to infidelity is like the decision you make of whether to say or not is not about whether you love them because that's no question I probably still love him probably always will and I have no doubt he loves me but it's whether he's going to change and I just knew he wouldn't and I just knew he wouldn't because it was three people he was never going to tell me like I actually think he would have done it again probably on his next

business trip, which was literally the next day. And I think that's the deciding factor of whether you stay rather than how much you love someone. Because if it's how much you love someone, 90% of the time, you will stay. Because the love has to exist. It was a three-year relationship. Like, and I think a lot of my healing and a lot of my peace, even from the beginning, I think people wanted me to be really angry and I'm just not like, because he gave me more than he took away. And I know that's a like narrative that doesn't want a lot of space in the media because people kind of want me to hate him. But I think people get worried when I say things like that because they're like, don't go back to him. And I'm like, no, I can say I love him. Yeah. I can say I do think for whatever

I knew of the relationship, whether it was like what he started cheating in the last like six months, whether the first two years were real, like the whole three years were real, whatever it was. I don't see the purpose in that. Like trying to go through this process is really trying to not demonise him, but also not put him on a pedestal and like ignore the truth of it. It's actually trying to keep the good and the bad and not, he's not, he's not this evil man. Like he was a, a guy who was doing his best who made a really big mistake that has really big consequences. But I forgave him pretty instantly. I just can't stay. Divorce was my worst nightmare.

I remember a month before I found out my husband was having an affair. My whole life kind of got thrown up in the air, you know, split into a million pieces. I remember hugging him very tightly and going, oh, I never want to get divorce. It just felt like if I could love him as hard as possible and if I could do everything to make things happy, then, you know, we would be together forever. And, you know, the way I was brought up, my father was a vicar. And, you know, marriage was the prize. and marriage was forever and you,

and that's what I thought, and I had my whole life sort of mapped out. I met my ex when I was 19, and I was like, right, this is it, this is, this is it. And like for many women, you know, I'd been with him for 22 years, and it had just got easier. Like, we got through the hard years of the early,

you know, children and difficult, and we were five days off signing a mortgage to renovate the house. I was like, right, I've held in for the really shit bits. And finally, we're going to have this happy year. year and that's when I found out about the divorce. And I just I just remember thinking, no, no, no, no, no, this is not, this is not how I plan. This is not, this is. And instantly, he looked like a different person.

I did not recognize him. And so, so to cut a long story short, I found a love letter in his jacket pocket. By mistake, my daughter said, oh, I want to be Dr. Who for World Book Day, picked up his coat. I said, oh, Dad's got a blazer. And when I picked it up, there was something hard in the pocket, and it was a love letter. And it was from a woman I recognized. And it had been going off for four years. I had no idea.

Four years. Four years. And, yeah, so that was very difficult. And then he came home about half an hour later and said, oh, hi, how are you going? And I said, oh, can we just go upstairs? And then I just took him upstairs. And I threw the letter on the bed, and I said, good one, dickhead, it's over. And that was it.

Good for you. That was it. And I just, and I had no, there was no begging for forgiveness. There was no, he just looked like, fuck, I've been found out. It's over, you know. I must have known that I would find out one day. There must have been something. But I don't understand.

For four years, he kept that a secret. That's huge. To carry that and to carry out this life. And I remember, I can, you know, was it was what we had not enough, you know, children, house, you know, all that sort of stuff. and he said, you know, I loved you because you're a good mum and the friends, but I didn't think you were beautiful. And so he got that from somewhere else. And he thought that was okay.

And I remember when he said that, I lay on the floor and I went bovine. I sort of went like primal. So he thought it was okay to get what he wanted from me, but what he wanted, you know, the other stuff got from someone else. And he didn't have a problem with it. And I remember talking to Anamatha. Yeah. Lovely Anna Mather.

And she was a psychotherapist and she said she often had these men who would come in and just say, I want my cake and eat it. I want the wife and children, but I also want the bit on the side. I want to feel desired. And yeah, so it was, yeah. Anyway, so that was pretty shit. That was a pretty, everything you know, but also, so they, nothing changes. And the people having a fair, nothing changes because that is their reality. They're living in this duality.

but what you thought was real, the holidays, everything, everything gets into question. And so I had to recreate the last four years of my life and the last 22 years. Because I was like, well, if he lied about that, what else do you lie about? What other affairs? Which other women are out there? It must have been a long time after that of just trying to like piece things together from the past four years. Yeah.

And going, oh, that wasn't a work conference. Oh, that wasn't a thing. Oh, when he was, oh, okay. So, yeah, so it was sort of repeating. So I was smashed to pieces, and that was just a couple of weeks before the pandemic. Fucking up. Oh, my gosh. Yes.

So I went into the pandemic, a complete mess. But then I didn't have anyone who could hug me for three months. So I was in like, you know, because when we were in our greatest periods of strife, what's the first thing we do? We go to our, you know, our family, our loved ones. We go out, we get pissed. You know, we do all those things. We want contact, we want comfort, and I had none of that thing. So I sort of feel like I had this sort of heartbreak bootcap, this complete, yeah, I had to, you know, everyone says, you've got to sit in the shit.

I was fucking knee deep. I was, you know, up to my, you know, neck in the shit and the sadness. And I guess it was good in a way because I couldn't run from it. I couldn't get distracted by work or anything else. I had to sit with my children and go, this is our new life now. So yeah, I did do a lot of drinking and a lot of smoking and a lot of comfort eating. And it was just a month off training for that marathon in 2020. So it was the March.

That's when I kind of got to know you. Yes, exactly. So it was on the first of March I did the big half. And I did it in just under three hours. I remember I was really proud of myself. And I thought, right, I've got the London Marathon next month. And then the fourth of March is when I found out about the affair. so I just stopped running

and I didn't run again for about eight months. Yeah. I replaced it with, you know, bags and sugar and crying, basically. So that was where I was at. But yes, but there's a happy ending, listener. There is a happy ending. I had to have a big blowout and all that sort of thing.

But eventually I pulled myself together. But I guess one of the biggest things that I did was I asked for help. and I knew I couldn't do this alone and I think you know and I have and I did say this in the book I said I only lost one person but I felt like I gained thousands from from this sadness

and I just thought I need to do something good from this this is a really awful thing to go through and so yeah so about three months into being separated I decided I would start talking about it and so Ellie and I on the Scummy Mummies podcast did a podcast about becoming single and I was overwhelmed.

There were women from around the world messages going, thank you for talking about separation. And then I started talking about becoming a single mom and how joyful it was. I felt a real freedom in it. And it was something I was really scared. And I think, you know, bit by bit we're trying to change the narrative of what single parenting, solo parenting, co-parenting, whatever you like to call it, is like because I think there's always been a head tilt.

There's always been a broken found. family, you know, that sort of thing, broken home. And I know so many women who are single moms and co-parents to say how joyful it is. It's messier. It's more tiring. But you get to have a closeness with your children that you may not have had before. And the children are away from now the conflict that may have encountered before as well. So there's lots of, you know, I think I've become much closer to my children when we got

separated, what was that, four years ago, my kids were eight and, eight and ten. And so they were pretty little and it was a big thing to kind of face. But yeah, I wouldn't have it any other way now. I really love, I love our little family of three. It's great. Yeah. And they got to see their mom be happy. Yeah. I can't even remember when I first saw the TikTok video that went viral of your wedding. Insane. I don't know. What do you call? Are you calling at your wedding?

Yeah, I'm calling it my kind of like yeah, wedding of me. I'm kind of, that's what I'm kind of calling it now. Yeah. Well, I saw it on TikTok and we talked about it and it was just like, oh my God, like this is it's so cool and so brave and we're like, we have

to talk to you. And I can't believe you said yes. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you. Honestly, thank you for having me. When I saw the message, was like, is this real? Okay, let's just go with it. And that's kind of been my, my thing at the minute, just go with everything kind of coming my way and just being a sponge, basically, and taking it all in. Yeah, I'd say. I mean, it's been like, we were just saying that before you arrive, like what a whirlwind you've been on, because obviously, and this is like such like a metaphor for how social media works. So people looked at that video, they see one video,

they think, oh shit, that's a, that's a thing. But then for you, it's like your whole, life and the last month must have just been coconuts. Surreal, absolutely bonkers. So it was, I just posted the video just because I was a bit like, oh, I liked the video and it was just something for me to be fair. It wasn't for anybody else. I just wanted to do it for me. And as you can see, I'd never posted anything on TikTok before. So like, I'm really new to it. So I'm like, I didn't have a clear what I was doing. And I was like, oh, there we go. And then I literally went to sleep with like 15 followers and then I woke up and I was like a 21,000 followers and I was like what? Jesus Christ. I was like what's going on? I was like bringing my mom and she was like

what's TikTok and I was like oh my man. Can you explain briefly then what the video was about and we'll obviously go into everything but just to get like an like an overview for like people who haven't you haven't yet heard your story. Of course so I was with my um partner at the time for coming up four years this year and we didn't be being engaged for two years and we were due to have our wedding on the 16th of September and then on the morning of my wedding after kind of getting all my makeup done I had complete confirmation at that point that he definitely wasn't coming because he was four hours away from where the venue was and we were due to get married in like an hour and a half.

And so yeah, I was left at the altar. And rather than kind of going home and crying, which I think was completely understandable if I did, I still wanted to enjoy the day with my friends and family who had basically had people coming over from Ireland and Scotland. They weren't travelling an hour. They were travelling like nine hours to come to a day to celebrate me and my partner at the time.

And I wanted to still enjoy the food. the music, the dancing, and that's where I did. So I had a day of me celebrating self-love and with my friends and family. And this is like what is so cool because I think like this is the really, really cool bit is that like I, I mean, this is a horrible situation for you to have been in like really, really horrendous. Like you're getting married. This is a day that you've planned for a long time. You're getting married to someone that you love and that you've been and that you trusted, right? And, you know, all the months. and then for him to just literally up and leave on the day of the wedding and for you to then carry on

like I would be I would have been an absolute wreck you wouldn't have been able to like I just wouldn't have been able to do it and I think it's so amazing but like the fact that you just like carried on and continued and had what looked to be I mean I don't know how it was like like behind the scenes but what looked to be like a really great day surrounded by your friends and your family and you you really did like enjoy as you said like the food and the drink and the dancing and just being around everyone. Did it feel like that or it was obviously not as rosy as that? There was like ups and downs. There was a lot of ups and downs but there was a lot of like really point of moments which I thoroughly enjoyed and I wish I could strangely go back and experience them again because I didn't appreciate them for

what they were at the time if that makes sense like dancing with my dad and and the fact that my actually dance with me was a miracle because he's very kind of like in his own. He's very kind of like he's not like an extrovert like myself. He kind of wants to sit back and let's everybody else do their thing. But the fact he danced with me was something I'm kind of always with a treasure. But there was a lot of moment where I kind of had to go off and kind of like there was a bit of a safe space that I had where I would just go and cry. And then the girls would kind of pick me back up again and I would get back out there. And there was a point where the, I think it was like around 20.

12 o'clock of the night and I think the tequila kind of like was at its peak basically and then I was just wanted to get my dress at that point and so my friend took me outside because all the bathrooms were all kind of thing because I'm having a bit of like a bit of a panic attack she was a bit like so she undressed me like mid in front of everybody because she's like I don't care get it out of the dress and I got into my joggers and my shirt and then once I was out of the dress I carried on dancing then and I still enjoyed more tequila, more vodka, and yeah, and I danced the night away. I'm so obsessed with you. That's so cool. I'm also completely obsessed with your friends because that's such a, such a special thing. It was your friends in the morning that first knew, or one

of your friends, wasn't it, in the morning that first knew that your ex wasn't going to come. Yeah, so Jodie, she'll see my, like, she's my ride and die. Like, all of my, we call that the cabin crew so Jody's husband was one of the groomsmen and it's like seven o'clock she had a call from Chrissy and he was like obviously telling her at the time that he wasn't going to be there and like I hear I seen her just get off of the table and I'm walking to a room and I was like oh what's going on and I hear to go and like stop stop lying like you're joking stop joking now and then that was it and I didn't hear anything more from her but she was trying to kind of figure away how to tell me as I was like kind of getting ready

drinking my remorse's getting my makeup done and she was just like she had this incredible like really sad news to tell her best friend because he left with no communication so none of the information came from him to myself

even though I tried calling him tried texting him there was no communication from him it was just like a death if that makes sense like he completely vanished and she was the way one who kind of had to break the news, which was probably incredibly hard for her. And to the day, but I'm glad that she was the one giving me the news because she knows me best. And like when I saw her crying, like, she's not a cryer, but when I saw her crying,

I knew it was kind of like, shit went down, basically. And had there been like any, I don't know, was there anything that you picked up on beforehand? Had he displayed any hints of like anxiety or doubt around the getting married or anything? So there was like an anxiousness but like about like, but there was no doubt. So like he was stressed because of like I'm one of nine, see? So we've got quite big. Yeah. That's a lot.

Yes, I'm the youngest and I've got like 17 nephews and nieces and I've got aunties and uncles. You're the youngest of nine and he's still four and he could fuck around with you. I'm like that. You've the greatest thing I've ever heard in my life. I thought he was a coward before and now I'm like, oh, never mind. Yeah. So yeah, he was obviously stressed because he is not really kind of much of a talker in, like a big crowd. And he was stressed about the speech.

But he was talking about taking me on the honeymoon. So his family in an apartment in Turkey, and that's why I couldn't go to the honeymoon because it was their family apartment. And he was talking about places he wanted to take me. me, we were talking about having children, we were talking about moving in together. So for me, that didn't show any doubt, the fact that he was talking after the wedding, like talking about a marriage. So, because it wasn't a day that I lost out on. It was like becoming a wife, if that makes sense. So it's kind of like mourning two losses at one point. A hundred percent, because we talk about like, I don't know, like the word, I think like the word jilting or

whatever. It's, you know, it's a really, well, sort of. of unusual thing, but it's a word that everybody knows, right? And you kind of think about it, and this is kind of what I was saying earlier, like, you think about it in the context of like your day, but it's like, everything's, in that moment, it's not like, fuck the day. It's like, you're, you're, you're having a breakup, but like in front of all the people that you love the most. Like, it's horrible. Yeah, your world gets turned upside down on like the worst way it could, in the worst day that it could be. The only, redisie. thing is how beautiful you looked like at least like you look so good because you're all like you're

looking your best I know that was probably and that's why I wore the dress because a lot of people asking why I wore the dress well it was either the dress or pyjamas and I had that dress for two years it was under my bed like so that's how long we've been planning it for it was under my bed I was ready to wear it got it altered got it perfect to fit me and it was my armor for the day like I think when you wear a wedding dress, anybody who has, like, it gives you that kind of sense of, like, tall posture, if that makes sense, this sense of, like, confidence.

And honestly, like, I just couldn't have pictured wearing anything else on that day, even though it wasn't my wedding, but that dress bought me some kind of, like, power, even though, like, what had just happened. And it was just, like, surreal, like, I was in my most vulnerable. Like, I'm, like, quite a confident person, but, like, I'm confident to the point. where I don't show my vulnerabilities to my closest friends and family,

just because of, like, I think when you show your vulnerabilities to your closest, that's when you've got to admit to yourself, you're vulnerable. And then kind of omitting it to, like, about 90 people was surreal. But the love that I had, like, showed me, like, how powerful it was to actually kind of let my guard down and go with my instinct. And I'm kind of glad that I did that. How did you let everybody know? Did you go to the church?

I don't know. Were you going to do a church ceremony? Or did you just say come to the party? It was all at one venue. So that's why we got the venue there because my mum's disabled. And she's a bit of a fusser and fafer and it stresses me out. So rather than getting like three cars to different places and we just got one car to one place. And I'd never saw the ceremony room because I didn't want to go in there

because that was the place where like every girl pictures like walking down. the aisle and saying I do and so I'm glad that I've saved that for the day if I ever do get married again but I got my sister and Jodie so my two maids of honours to go in and tell the the guests and bless them they did incredibly like it must have been so hard for them and so they were kind of my my messengers of my day my middlemen and like I think everybody knew once I was like 20 minutes late and then all the bridesmaids and the groommen all walking in together. And the fact that the groomsmen stayed,

I think I do want to point that out, every single one of his groomsmen, all of his best friends, stayed for me. And I think that showed me that I was like, wasn't in the wrong. Because I think you get a lot of kind of questions going to think, did I do this?

Have I done this? What have I done wrong? But the fact that they all stayed, I was like, fuck that. I haven't done anything wrong. They're telling me I haven't done anything wrong. So sure what? I'm right to stay here and enjoy myself.

I think you can safely say, if your fiancé leaves on the morning of your wedding without so much as a text or a phone call, you can safely say that it's not you that's done something wrong. Throughout the day, was there any contact from him at all? None. So literally I tried calling him, everything. So what I found out lately he'd done is that he snapped a SIM card

and got a new one and was calling, like, his parents and people off unknown numbers but never called me. That's really weird. Yeah, that was it. So I literally had no contract from him at all. That's weird. It is. It's not the breaking up part for me

that was the kind of like the surreal part. It was the fact that he didn't own his shit. Like everybody's within their rights to not do something because absolutely, like you can make a choice not to be with somebody.

Every day people break up with people is the fact that he didn't own his decision, didn't tell me face to face or didn't even give me a text. Like, a text I would have probably even understood but nothing from him and which kind of really solidified

from me the lack of respect and I was like because throughout the day I was a bit like to my girls I was like if he does show up girls and may want to take him back I'm not too sure like because I still had the love for him at that point but then when when I think one of my friends near told me like well Kaylee hasn't talked to you like

why would you take him back if he wasn't willing to show you that respect and I was like fuck yeah I was like what the fuck am I? Like absolutely, no. He's put me in a position where I took away my choice, took away my future, and didn't give me the,

even the smallest amount of respect to actually have a conversation with me and or even be like a decent human being. So at that point, I was like, fuck him. And, well, I think our personal highlight for December has to be, starting our podcast. Yeah, well, it could also be a catastrophic lowlight.

Like, the reviews are going to come in. They'd be like, what the fuck was that? It was like one big rant. Yeah. Couldn't distinguish between the two of them. Yeah, exactly. Random months. They both laugh like seals her.

I'd like to clarify that the laugh is M's laugh. Not Alex's laugh, N's laugh. It's a really bad laugh. I'm really aware of it. No, it's a nice laugh. laugh. I like it. Thanks. Well, I think that's the year wrapped up. Four hours later. The only thing left for us to do is sing you out of Virgin. Alex actually claimed to sound to sing like Beyonce earlier. No, no, I said I can hold a tune, but I'm no Beyonce.

Okay? I can hold a tune. It's such a claim. I'm so excited. It doesn't mean you're getting one, but I can hold one. But I can hold one. If you're here and you've made it to the end, thank you so much. and wow. Yeah, and we're so sorry. So grateful and also so sorry. And I guess, yeah, this is going out just after Christmas. I hope everyone's had a really lovely Christmas.

Oh, yeah. And also, if you haven't had a really lovely Christmas, then just to say, that's okay, you'll have a lovely time again. And I know Christmas can be really shit for loads of people. A lot of people struggle with Christmas. Yeah. So actually, this is just a note to say,

if you've had a really bad Christmas, that's cool. No drama. It doesn't say anything about you. Don't worry about it. Lots of people do. Yeah, loads of people. but no one ever talks about that. No, it's true, isn't it?

No one ever says that on social media. Oh, it was awful. Like, it was awful. No one ever says like, oh, yeah, I don't know. My granny said something offensive. I was going to say, yeah. It's normally like a family member says something that like triggers you, not triggers you, but like puts you in a stink.

Yeah. Or I don't know. Is that right? Cooks your meat. I don't know. Or cooks you meat. Yeah, you're a vegan. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, so if you have another great one then, that's fine. That's fine. This is, we're even ending this on a miserable note. Could we not have been positive at least for Christmas? We are going to be so positive. Like just you wait,

we've got so much positivity in store. Yeah, this podcast is absolutely nothing like what it's going to be next year. We have a proper, I promise you, we have a proper format. This was, we've got a proper structure, like this was just to get everything off our chests. And to ease us in, you know?

Yeah. We need to be eased into this. this podcast world. Thanks for joining us. Well, all the usual, you know, what do people do at the end of podcasts? Ask to like to subscribe and like and leave a five-star review.

That would be nice. You know what? I don't even think you should leave a review because I think to leave five stars would be disingenuous. I think anything else would be too hurtful. And, you know, if I haven't had a shit Christmas, that'll make me have one.

Yeah, please don't leave a bad review. Just don't worry about the reviews. If you just... Yeah. Well, a good one would be alright. I was going to say, if you like it, then please review it. And if you don't, please don't. Is that how it works?

I don't know. I hope so. I can't take criticism. Yeah. We're incredibly fragile. Before we get another bollicking and chucked out because we have been here, like we have well and truly overstayed our welcome. It's gone dark.

It was supposed to be 11 till 1 and it is now 4 o'clock. That's so bad, isn't it? It's so bad. We are three hours behind. We need to go. word one more time. This is incredibly indicative of what we're going to be creating next year. Yeah, yeah. Oh, kinky.

So, buckle in. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us and we will see you next time. See you next time. Thanks for being here. Happy Christmas.