Should I Delete That? - Period Power with Maisie Hill

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

This week on the podcast, the girls are joined by author of Period Power, Maisie Hill. Ever since her period began, Maisie experienced debilitating pain when bleeding. After fifteen years of pain, she tried everything she could to relieve it and find answers. One day, she realised she could address more than just her physical symptoms, and began to explore the ways her emotions and mental health affected her during this time. She was finally able to deal with her period pain, and was inspired to teach others how to do the same. Follow Maisie on Instagram @_maisiehill_ You can buy her books Period Power here and Perimenopause Power hereFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And there's that kind of classic meme of anything you can do, I can do bleeding, which you know is true. And we can do those things and we do do those things. But are there times when it would be better for us not to? Hello and welcome to Should I Delete that? I'm M. Clarkson. And I'm Daisy Grant. joined again by producer daisy how you doing days yeah i'm i'm doing pretty good i'm doing pretty good two thumbs up two thumbs up i had a hot chocolate at lunch so like life life is good you know life is sweet life is peak love that how are you i'm good i've got so many goods i'm going to get into them yeah please i want to hear all about them okay two colossal goods overshadowed last minute by a late coming and

overwhelmingly superior third first one my daughter turned one years old second one i met my co-host and great friends baby boy today or trumped by the fact that I just got home to a parcel I got a Stanley Cup Have you not seen the news that they might have lead in them? Oh, what? That's your awkward.

Oh no, I'm so excited. I saw it very briefly somewhere today so I could be saying fake news but that is so funny. You better be. But they've survived in a car fire, so like, you know, who's winning? Exactly. Do they survive a car burglary?

That's what I want to do. That's more my level. I highly doubt it. Someone is going to break in for that. So don't leave it in the car unattended. They break in anyway. I mean, the lesson there for me is to start locking my car. But I'm very excited.

So I've got my stand. I know that I'm bait. I know that I'm a marketer's dream. And like, I'm the reason that the world's burning. Like, I'm a capitalist nightmare. I'm a monster. I just, it's so. Beautiful.

And everybody on Instagram had them. To be fair, I don't, I don't know if I've seen you with, like, a water bottle before. You'll never see me with a plastic water bottle. I've got this horrifying, ugly, purple thing that I found on Amazon. Yeah. Yeah, because hydration stations, I drink at least five litres of water a day. This is good. Yeah, you won't catch me with a plastic water bottle unless I'm very, very desperate.

Babies, shmabies. It's all about the Stanley Cup. I'm loving it. Exactly. I'm happy for you. On a serious level, let me just go through it. Yeah, I'm a daughter to turn one. so amazing.

Like, it's been the most intense week of my life. I was so emotional on her birthday eve. It was an actual, I couldn't believe it. I didn't expect it, but I sobbed. Yeah. I wept. I felt so many things. I didn't even know as possible to feel that many things.

That was a lot. And then today, I got to go down, because I was in Japan, so it's been so long, so he's four weeks old today. But I got to go down, um, and meet baby Tommy and see Al and Dave.

And I've missed her so much. Yeah. It's, like, I think we forget, like, I think I certainly forgot, like how much time me and Alex spend together. Like, not just doing the pod, but like recording, working, meetings, like, speaking. You see each about all the time, yeah.

We talk to each other all day, every day, and then it's just been silenced. I mean, not silence, but there's just, you know, she's in her bubble and as she should be, and we're not talking about work, and I've just missed her so much, so we had such a great day. That's actually really nice,

because there's not often an opportunity for you to not talk about work, right? Yeah. So this is wonderful for you. you guys, I'm loving it for you. It was so great, honestly. I was just had the loveliest day. Like, I'm so obsessed.

So, um... I want to meet him so bad. He looks gorgeous. Oh, he's so gorgeous. I can't. Like, I can't. I was literally, it's like, oh, God, there on my ovaries just exploding.

Uh-oh. And Arlo loved him. Yeah. Yeah. It was just joy. Oh, my God, true. Right. No, and Tommy together forever.

I love it. I know. Okay, tell me something good. Oh, you know what? Hot chocolate for lunch? That's it. It was great. It was fantastic. What a treat. I had more than that for lunch. I also had a really good sandwich. So, life's sweet, baby. You know? Not just such an underrated meal. I just love it so much. It's really good. And when you like, it was really last minute as well. I was like, let's go out and get a pasty, you know, let's do lunch and to my partner. I was like, and then to my partner, everyone knows. It's Daisy. Anyway, I was like, actually, we've got some bloody salami and we've got some salami in the fridge. We've got bread. We've got the whole shebang. Let's just make a delicious sandwich. So that's my good, I suppose. how dull, but whatever.

No, no, no. It is, it's great. Enjoy little things. Thank you. You know, lots of little things. Make a happy life or something. They do. They all add up, don't they?

Have you got any bads? No, I'm not allowing myself bad. I guess, I guess if I had, if I had to have bad, it would be the fact that I'm not sleeping, but I don't even, I don't even care. Like, I just, it's been such an amazing roller coaster of a week, but it's, like, it's all good. It's a lot of emotions been going on. You had Japan, which has messed up loads of things. It's a lot. It's just the fact that she's won. I just can't believe it.

Like that's kind of bad, but it's also so amazing. Like, I just felt like, I don't know, I felt like when I was putting her to bed, it was like, I was just closing a chapter on all the people that we've been this year, and that's so intense. But then actually, you kept her alive for a whole year. I know. But then this morning, we woke up, and today's the day after her birthday, and everything's the same. And I was like, oh, thank God for that. Like, it kind of felt like it should have been some massive, monumental, like, she's won now. You know what I mean? like it's over. She's not a baby anymore,

but she's exactly the same person that she was. So it's fine. I was just being dramatic, which is so unlike me. I'm so pleased. I, you know what? I'm going to go with you.

I'm going to stay on this like, I don't have any bads train. Let's keep it that way. It's all good. It's all good this week. Maybe this should just be the GA. Maybe they don't do bads anymore. Maybe in an owl's absence,

we just scrap badness. We just go for toxic positivity. Listen, sometimes you guys don't even have a good, so I don't want to be. I don't want to make it permanent, but... She'll come back and be like, what in the name of rainbows and clouds is this shit? Get it up!

I hate this. How about your awkwards? Oh, God. Okay, what's? I put an S on my end, I don't know. Awkward. Okay, so obviously it's just me in my entire essence. Like, I am the awkward.

I am so awkward. I, um, I've decided. I decided the other night when I was like, oh my God, I would love to be able to do a handstand. Like, all I want is to do a handstand. Like, I just, how cool would that be? It's to be able to, like, just do a handstand. I'm like, I can't will.

Like, I just think it's amazing. And I just kept thinking to myself, I was like, little girls can do this. Like, you can do it. You can do it. So the next day I was like, I'm going to go to the gym. And I'm just going to try it. Like, surely. Why in the gym in public with the cafe?

We've seen the cafe. Have you seen my house? Yeah, we have seen the cafe. But there's no space in this house. You couldn't do it in your room. Yeah, you'd whack your feet on the wall. I've got no space. I live in a London property and I have a baby.

Like, what do you want from me? There's no space for a handstand. So I'll, like, I'll go to the gym. It's a padded floor. Like, that felt good. I just thought it would be good. Obviously, you're right.

It's the middle of a cafe. It's a busy public gym and I can't do a handstand. So why? Why did I go? I love your enthusiasm, no. I love it that you were just like, I can do it. Well, obviously I can't. But I did that fun thing that people do where you try something,

fail at it, get incredibly awkward that you failed. So then you have to just go and do something that you can do. So, like, I can do headstand. So it's like I tried the handstands for a while And then like when I couldn't do them I got awkward And I was like I'm just gonna I'm just gonna go back to where I'm safe

Hey guys And I just did hand the headstands for ages So I literally went to the gym And did like two headstands And then went home I feel like that is the awkward itself Not even like You went I was like

I went to the gym today Did two headstands came home That's it I love it I'm gonna I'm gonna practice So you have to keep going to the gym And doing it there Yeah

Oh no I found from Hansan classes Oh my God Is that all you do for an hour? Mm-hmm. I don't have long before, but yeah. Sort of time, isn't it? I'm very nervous. I'm super apprehensive.

I haven't signed up because I'm a bit scared, but I think it won't be good for me. Are they at your gym? Yeah, I just think it'd be really good. I just feel like, I just feel like girls, little kids can do it. And I just want my inner child out. I feel that.

Can you cartwheel? No, and I wish I could. I taught myself quite recently as well. That's what I want to do. That's what I want to do. It's really fun. So, yeah, no, I'm feeling this. Exactly. It looks incredibly liberating.

And I just, like, I've always wanted to be the kind of person because it's like frolic across the field. Yeah. So, woo, Cochwell. You are that kind of person, actually. I feel like, yeah, yeah. I agree. And I just feel like I need money where my mouth is.

I love it. How expensive is, how expensive is this class is? I don't want to talk about it. This is an investment in my future. Is frivolity not the, not the currency? I don't know. I wanted to respect me. I wanted to adore me.

And I don't want her to be better than me at stuff. and I know she will be, because soon enough she'll be cut with him through the garden and I'll be like, not that I'm a competitive mom, but I just don't want to be left behind in like my old age.

Do you know what I mean? They'd be like, oh, the boring, oh, mum can't do, because dad can, fucking crossfit. Alex is doing a handstand press ups. So he's going to be cool action dad.

You're still a young mum. You're still a teen mum, so like, you know, you're a teen mum so you can do this. I'm going to start moving like one. Yeah, I would. Watch me. Thanks.

Okay. Well, have we gotten in a few, I always see the Australian accent with you. In a room. It's not appropriate because you're actually Australian and I'm sorry. Now we've got an interview today. Okay.

Well, do you want to introduce us by all means? Okay. We've got an interview today with Maisie Hill, who is an expert in reproductive health. She has a book called Period Power and another book called Perimenopause Power. And it was so interesting to hear about the way that she like harnesses

her menstrual cycle, her periods to work for her. and she coaches other women to do the same. Agree. Subsequently, since recording this episode, I have redunloaded Natural Cycles. I am back, like, on the period tracking knowledge is power train, and I'm really enjoying it. I love it.

And, like, it's funny that you mentioned Natural Cycles, because obviously I'm gay, but I've been tracking my period for, like, two years at something. And it's just great. Obviously, it has nothing to do with reproduction, because that's not going to happen by a mistake. But it's so interesting. Yeah.

Well, that's it. This is that actually is a really good point about how bad sexual education is that or even just the conversation around this that when we talk about women's health we do it in the context of contraception and that's pretty much the end of it and you're like even just saying they're like

oh I don't need it for contraception but I just want to know about my body and it's like surely that should be the other way around. Exactly. But such as the patriarchy. So on that note here is an interview we hope you enjoy. Love you guys.

Hi, Maisie. Hi. Guys, we have Macy Hill in today, who is an expert in menstrual health and the author of Period Power, which is an incredible book that demystifies and breaks down our menstrual cycle to enable us to work with our hormones rather than against them by either harnessing the power of them while also identifying when we're not feeling our best, which to me, at least, feels really revolutionary. because I think there is so much confusion and misunderstanding around our menstrual cycles and the reality, I believe, is that most of us just don't really know what's going on or why. And we've all heard of like PMT, PMS, and know that like a couple of weeks for our periods, like we feel a bit shit.

But generally we're not sure why and we don't understand the other seasons that you call them. We're going to get into that of the menstrual cycle. cycle around that. And reading your book, I was struck by how little I knew and understood about my cycle. And I think I actually felt a bit sad that I'd gone for so long really like berating myself for things like fluctuating energy and fluctuating motivation. And I never understood that hormones played such a key role in those things. And I would really be so hard on myself and so frustrated in myself for lacking in both when all along it was like a perfectly reasonable physiological explanation. Anyway, on to you. Really excited to talk to you. I don't really know where to

start because we have so much to talk about, but I think it would be good to know how you ended up becoming an expert in mental health and discovering so much about periods and hormones. Yeah. Well, I think just to pick up on what you just said about it being revolutionary, I think it's just revolutionary to even have this conversation at all. So I really appreciate you both having me on to actually have it and chat about all the things which we are going to get on to. So my background is in women's reproductive health. So I started out over 20 years ago working as a practitioner, doing reflexology, aromatherapy, and then eventually getting my degree in Chinese medicine acupuncture. And I was also working as a birth doler. So one way or another,

my professional life became all about wombs and ovaries and hormones, whether that was helping people with their cycle-related issues or fertility, pregnancy, premenopause support. It was just all about women's health effectively. But at the same time as exploring that professionally, it was very much rooted in my own personal struggles because from when I first got my period in my teens and into my 20s, I had really debilitating period pain. And it was my exploration of that and trying to find things that are actually going to help me, apart from chucking loads of painkillers down my throat, which I'm not averse to doing. I certainly got through on plenty of painkillers. but it was really trying to find solutions to my own period pain that kind of got me

more and more curious about the menstrual cycle, about the impact of hormones, and, you know, my personal and professional lives just kind of all came together and here we are 20 years later. But was there a reason for your severe period pains like endometriosis or PCOS? No, there wasn't. So where I got to in terms of the kind of stand. medical investigations, you know, it had scans, had pelvic examinations, etc. And it got to the point where the doctor was like, well, you know, it's kind of reached the limit of what we can investigate this side of things without kind of, you know, doing investigative surgery to actually

see if it's something like endometriosis that's causing the issue. And so it got into that point and I was like, is, am I, am I there yet? Am I there at that point where I'm up doing this. And it was kind of at that point where I thought, well, just go like full throttle into checking out other things and, you know, just before taking that step. And it was bizarrely at that time when I broke up with like a long term relationship came to an end. And the period I had after leaving him was pain free. Like there was just no pain. What I like broke up with him ended it. It was like such a big thing. But then my period pain just completely went away for that period. I was like, what? And it was like, it was just that all happened around the same time. And I was

like, well, if there was no pain then, then maybe it's actually about other things. And certainly in terms of Chinese medicine and, you know, the kind of non-standard way of looking at health in terms of being here in the West, there's all sorts of other things that come into it, including, you know, stress, suppression of emotions, you know, harboring resentment and frustration and anger and, you know, being over responsible for everyone else in your life and, you know, never having a minute to yourself and all the unpaid labour and emotional labour that we as women tend to be doing. And so really, when I addressed all of those things, along with having acupuncture and herbs and supplements, my period pain just went and I didn't need to do anything else. Wow. Wow.

that's can I ask like was it was it so as simple as like the next month it was it continued to be pain free and or was it did it take you a while after that initial pain free period for you to kind of work out the process and work out what was working for you so for me it was like literally I broke up with him and you know my next period was pain free but that and it didn't but then the one after that it was like there was some pain and the pain was there but it was like that moment of like nothing and then it kind of came back but it was enough for me to believe that it was possible for me to have pain-free periods which kind of gave me the belief and momentum to be really committed to showing up to acupuncture

and taking supplements every day and all of those things and you know eight 12 weeks of doing that and I was able to stop doing all those things and I haven't had painful periods since and that was well over a decade ago now yeah isn't that remarkable that there's this sort of that you were able to kind of find it in yourself and and work this out yourself and kind of believe that there was hope whereas that that's such a stark contradiction to the way that we are always talk, the way we always talk about periods and the way that the healthcare system talks about period, which is always just, oh well, it's just part of being a woman, it's just one of those things. Like, it's like pain's inevitable and pain is mandatory, pain

is just part of the female condition or the human condition for those who have wounds. Yeah. And it's mad that you just had this moment that was just like, oh, I, hang on, maybe everything's a lie and I can actually. Yeah, well, I think it's that acceptance that's a problem. right of just thinking oh this is part and parcel of having a uterus and having a menstrual cycle is that you have all these other things that go alongside it and you know that can be acceptance in terms of like our personal experience of things or what we're told by other people including medical professionals so you know there's huge acceptance within the medical profession that this is normal that this is a normal experience

of having a cycle is that it's going to be painful. And yes, painful periods, pain throughout the cycle is common, but that doesn't mean it's normal that we should accept it. So, you know, whether it's someone's, you know, personal realization of, oh, this isn't something I want to accept or put up with, I'm going to try and do things to improve it, or whether that's your doctor refusing to accept it and saying, yeah, let's actually, you know, get you booked in to see a gynecologist and have appropriate investigations and treatment. So it's not like there has to be, you know, one way of going about things or the things that I did for me would be exactly what someone else needed.

I'm sure the things that I did would help most people. But there's other things that come into menstrual health that are going to be beneficial and necessary as well. but I think it does start off with us just being like, no, not going to put up with that. Yeah. In terms of like practical stuff that people listening who do suffer from really painful periods can take away, what is there on offer then? So you mentioned acupuncture, which obviously some people may not be able to afford,

I guess there's supplements as well, right? Yeah. What specific supplements? There's so many that can help. and there's lots that I list in the book. But really, I would say, you know, we can talk about affordability and accessibility of treatments and things like this,

which for sure is an issue. But often what I find is people are going off to, you know, their local health food store and taking a pun on, oh, I'll try this and I'll try that. And they're kind of spending money anyway. And I think it's just always so much better if you can speak to a practitioner one-on-one and get recommendations that are specific.

specific to your situation and your health. And, you know, yes, going to see a practitioner does cost, that's an investment, time, money, etc. But there's also, there's loads of student clinics across the UK and in other countries as well. So, you know, if cost is an issue, then just look for places where people do acupuncture degrees and diplomas or where people are training as nutritionists because they're always wanting people to come in and you know and give the student practitioners that opportunity to be learning and having that time and they're amazing at what they do and usually it's like 10 pounds for that and then you're getting that direct information of this is what you need to buy or you're having a treatment for 10 pounds versus you know whatever

else it's costing privately so that's that's always my preference but you know there are lots of other things that can be done as well. I guess that's the thing with this is it is so personal and I suppose experimental as well, because something that you said before, which is really like stuck with me and then kind of made me excited and really sad at the same time. I'm having a bit of an existential. It's that periods can be exacerbated by the stress that you're under or the responsibilities that you have or, I mean, it's all like circumstantial, but so much of that feels so, gendered in that we know that so much of the unpaid labour and whatever, it does fall on us. So good that like there's hope that like boundaries are going to actually help our physical

symptoms and like, you know, we have to prioritise ourselves in order to prioritise our health and like that feels very empowering. But on a realistic level, that feels very, very scary and difficult and kind of a bit impossible. Why does it feel scary and difficult? Oh God, because if I didn't, if I wasn't responsible for everything, then everything would fall apart. So I feel like my womb just has to be collateral because I'm a people pleaser. Do you see what I mean about what I just said about that acceptance of like, what are you willing to accept and what are you not willing to accept? And this is what I coach my clients on all the time, is that over responsibility for other people and that need, that urge to swoop in and say, people, but the only reason we do that is because we are unwilling to sit with the discomfort

of not doing that. Yes, that's very true. I do not want to sit with that discomfort. Yeah, so if you're going to be uncomfortable either way, and you've got the discomfort of horrific periods, for example, versus the discomfort that comes up in the moment of holding back from doing something that you've been socialised to do, but you actually have no business doing and you don't want to, then you just have to make that choice in the moment, which discomfort am I going to go with? Yeah. Wow. I guess, I mean, that's so, I know. But then, just to bring myself into this way too much, and I apologise, I don't have terrible periods. But I think a massive part of that is because I didn't have periods for like seven years. I had the marina quarrel

and I didn't have periods. And then before that, I had the pill and I would like back to back them. I just, I wasn't responsible with, with my menstruation. Um, and I wonder how you feel about contraception and how you feel about hormonal contraception, given that your attitude towards your health now is so holistic. Yeah. I mean, I went on the pill, um, as a teenager, I think just before I turn 16 for a combo of, well, I've got bad period pain. So, you know, the doctors are saying this will help with that. And it does because it stops you from having periods. You know, you just have withdrawal bleeds as opposed to actual periods. And also for contraceptive reasons as well. And, you know, my experience of it was I was depressed. I had no interest in sex or intimacy

whatsoever. So in actual fact, it's very effective as a form of contraception, more so than the reason so that it's meant to. So, you know, that's my personal experience. and, you know, some people do really well on hormonal contraception, some people do well on, you know, copper coil, etc. There's all sorts of options out there. My personal and professional opinion is it can feel like we're picking the best of a bad bunch, right? When it comes to contraception and like that there's, you know, it's like which downside do you want to opt for? and you know I think we need more options we need better options even when it comes to like accessibility of the options that we have can be an issue for some people depending on you know where they are and the reproductive issues that are going on in their area in their country access to services etc so you know I'm not anti hormonal contraception for example because everything, you know, everything can be used well at appropriate times.

But what I often find is that people are taking it because of a lack of support with the issue that they actually want help with. So, you know, it's being used to manage symptoms, but it's not actually treating symptoms. And I think that's the issue with the language that's used around it is like, oh, I take the pill to treat my period pain, for example. Or I take the pill to treat my irregular cycles. And it's not treating them. And it just stops you from having a cycle in the first place and stops you from having periods. So, and then what happens when someone wants to come off for whatever reason? And then they're still faced with that issue. And, you know, I'm all for, I think sometimes, sometimes people just need a break and like a kind of reset of something that's going on. And that can be due to physical reasons. It can be to like mood issues in the second half of the cycle or, you know, you can have stuff happen in relation to your menstrual cycle that isn't actually a menstrual cycle issue, but your cycle exacerbates the issue that you have. So, for example, and I wouldn't like to describe this as an issue, but I'm autistic and my experience of being autistic is exacerbated by the second half of my cycle, okay? And it can be for like

mental health conditions, digestive issues, there's all sorts of things that are, you know, have a relationship to the cycle. And sometimes people just need a break from that. And if you, if there aren't other options available to you because you don't know what they are because your doctors doesn't know what they are or they're just not available to you even if you do know what they are then I totally get why taking the pill for an amount of time is is the option or maybe the only option that people go with right so if you're on the pill and you're only getting a withdrawal bleed not a period do you still go through the season which we are going to get onto, like, really soon.

Do you still go through the seasons of a cycle with the withdrawal bleed? And do you still have those hormones that fluctuate? No, you don't. No. Oh, wow. Okay. So it's a straightforward bleed, no necessarily, no mood changes, no hormonal changes. No, it's just like you're, because you're taking hormones, you know, they suppress the cycle and then keep those hormones at a, you know, certain level.

so you're just doing that and then you stop taking the pill or you take the you know like the dummy pills in the pack yeah and then that's enough to to cause you to have a withdrawal bleeding and then you go back to taking them so you know some people will say that they still feel like they experience somewhat of um you know hormonal shifts um but but on the whole it's um i would say most people don't and that can be like a really good thing for some people who are wanting that and for but then even if even for someone I think that that is a relief and it is something that they're wanting it can also result in them just feeling a bit numb and a bit kind of cut off from their experience of living so you know swings and roundabouts

Bob moments as I'm listening because I had hormonal contraception for a decade and then when I was like 27 maybe I was like no I need to just have a break and so I came off all contraception and I had like maybe six periods before I got pregnant and since then obviously I didn't have any periods when I was pregnant and I'm breastfeeding now so I haven't had any periods since but over the last year and a half I have been two years I have been so fucking hormonal and I am so clueless about it and listening to you I actually feel quite sad because I have no idea some of the feelings that I feel like and I know that a lot of this is postpartum but like the rage that I get which I've never had before like there's parts of my

personality that I feel in the last two years are like it like bubbling over and it's mostly this like, it's not quite rage, but it's this just huge feeling, which I have never had before, and I had linked it a lot to motherhood, but actually thinking about it, I don't think it is motherhood, I think it's hormones, and the fact that I didn't have them for my whole 20s is actually mad, so this isn't really a question, it's just like, actually, it is. Well, I can comment on this. Yes, please, and how do I learn about myself now? So I'm sat over here listening to you say this, getting very excited for you, which may seem like an odd response in, you know, to someone talking about like that rage, that anger and those things coming up. And the thing is, I don't think that is hormones. I think that is the reality for a lot of us. There are things that irritate us. There are things that anger us, etc., etc.

But the trouble is when you've been socialised as female, we're usually not very practiced at speaking about those things. We're more likely to people please cover them up, do too much, have no boundaries, swallow our words and keep a pleasant smile, sing song, voice all the time. Okay, that's what we're socialised to do. So I do think that the menstrual cycle, especially like pre-mencerally, or becoming a parent, having a small child and all those things. It may seem like those things, those hormonal states exacerbate things and bring things to the surface. I think those things were always there. But our hormones are just helping us.

It's like they're just kind of like stoking the fire to actually express them. instead of just swallowing it and minimizing it and being like, oh, no, I'll just do this. Like, no, let's actually just say, I don't like it when you do that. Like in the very, do you see how like, when I said that is very clear, I'm not happy about something. I'm expressing it, but it's not, it's not a big deal. Someone's going to hear the tone in what I'm saying. But it can be just as clean as that. so I did a podcast recently about anger and about like being like clean expression of anger

and how it's corrective and protective and it can be a thing of beauty when we just let it out and say it. But without a way that's like going to like intentionally cause someone harm, we're just like, I'm not cool with that. We need to sort something out here because I don't want this to keep going on. It's going to be detrimental to our relationship or. whatever it is, this is something it needs to be addressed because anger is an emotion that is helping us to see something's not right and it needs to be addressed and changed. So I love it when my clients tell me, oh, I'm getting angry about this. I'm like, yes. Because how many of us have had like healthy, deliberate, skilled use of anger like modeled to us. We don't have that. Yeah. I

do like this and like I it's a bit overwhelming but I I just feel like I'm feeling a lot more and I think a lot of that has been maybe being becoming a mother I feel in lots of ways like it was what I was born to do or whatever cheesy shit you want to say but like I I feel like I'm really coming into myself but I think I do believe a big part of that is hormonal related and I'm not having periods yet because I'm still breastfeeding but I'm really looking forward to having them again so that I can track this because I think it's an amazing way of getting to know yourself and obviously your work really highlights that and I know so many women in my real life who track and know themselves so well and they're so boundaryed because of it and they know

no I'm not doing this because I'm on my period and no I'm yes like I can do this because I'm ovulating or whatever and I'm like what language are you speaking yeah but with for those of us who don't know what language they're speaking would you mind talking us through the seasons and like the parts of our cycle and what we could expect to feel at different points within that. Yeah, sure. So I'll give you like a really brief summary of each of the seasons. So the way to think about it is when when your cycle starts, that means when your period begins, around that time your hormone levels are relatively low. So this is the the inner season of winter. And then as you come out of your period into that pre-ovulation

phase of the cycle, that's the inner spring. So we get a gradual increase in hormone levels. And then hormone levels peak in the run-up to ovulation. So that is the inner summer. And then the pre-menstrual phase, whichever point you feel you enter the pre-menstrual phase, be it immediately after ovulation or a week before your period starts, that's the inner autumn. And so really, this just gives us an amazing language to talk about our experience of the cycle, as we can say, oh, you know, I'm in my summer, the ovulation phase. This is when, for example, I feel more confident, more up for taking risks. And this has, you know, a direct correlation to, you know, the whole objective of the menstrual cycle,

which is to get you to go out, find a mate, have sex and procreate. So, of course, in the run up to ovulation, when you are most fertile, your hormones are going to be nudging you to go out, find someone, start chatting, have sex. So of course they're going to make you, you know, more confident, more social, more outgoing, more flirty. You're going to perhaps feel better in yourself, be more attractive to others because our hormones actually make us more symmetrical in the run up to ovulation and like changes our skin, our hair, all of these things. Like literally our fingers, our hands get more symmetrical in the run up to ovulation. So, you know, your hormones are going to be there going, oh, yeah, take a risk, go out, go and talk to that guy, have sex, go and see that person. All of these things are going to be under the influence of hormones, you know, driving behaviour. Whether you know, want to meet someone, have sex or have a kid, this is like what your hormones are going to be encouraging you to do. whereas in the second phase of the cycle from ovulation to the start of your next period in the absence of pregnancy, then your hormones care more about whether you're safe, because there's the chance at that point that you have conceived.

So they want to keep you safe and go with the kind of safer options. So there's loads of research around kind of the types of men that women are attracted to in the different phases of the cycle. So the research says that in a run-up to ovulation, we'll go for the kind of the hot guy that, you know, is maybe a great shag, but not one you want to actually be a father figure to your kids. But then in the second half of the cycle, you're going to be more attracted to kind of the safe guy

who is going to stick around and provide. So it's really interesting, just like there's so many ways that our hormones affect us. And when you have that information, you can use it in your life, not just in terms of dating, but I've got loads of clients and readers of my books who found it beneficial when they're dating. But also in terms of, you know, work and how you approach your professional life and other relationships, whether it's with friends, kids, etc. So it's just when we think about the impact of the cycle, we're just thinking, You know, how, what's my experience of my cycle? Because everyone's experience is going to be different.

And where are the places that I struggle? And, you know, where are the places in the cycle where I feel most like myself and where I can, you know, just enjoy being me, whatever that means. And really, that just gives us information. And the way I like to describe the cycle and tracking the cycle is to just think about it like the weather. So, you know, you look at the weather forecast doesn't necessarily mean the weather is going to be exactly what the forecast says, but it gives you a sense of things. And, you know, much like I'm here in Margate looking out the window and it's pissing down with rain. So, you know, knowing that it's a rainy day, which the equivalent with my cycle could be like sensory sensitivities, noise aversion, kind of wanting to be by myself. I, once I have that information. It's like, okay, am I going to cancel my plans and just stay inside and work from home? Or am I going to equip myself, like the equivalent of going out with an umbrella, and just take care of myself so that I can still go about my day? Because I think that the issue we can get into with menstrual cycle awareness and tracking is people start to think, oh, I have to perfectly curate my life around my cycle. And I'm all for curating your life around your cycle. But all of us, including me, have limits on how much we're able to do that. So it's not just about changing your

plans. It's also thinking about what support do you need, what self-care do you need in order to still do those things on the days when you're not feeling fantastic. But that's what I was going to ask you like how easy is it to override the hormones like I guess specifically the the bad hormones or the hormones that that make us feel not ourselves or or moody I guess like how easy is it to override those because you know if we can't live a life that's like perfectly curated around our cycle well I'll give you I'll give you a personal example so like I said earlier about being autistic my sensory sensitivities really shift quite dramatic after ovulation and in that second half of the cycle. And, you know, there are things that I can do

that support that. But on the whole, like, that's the reality of my existence for that period of time. So that will just mean that I have communication with my partner around the childcare side of things. And, you know, I mean, we just have a rule anyway that he does all the kids' birthday parties. I don't go to kids' birthday parties unless he's really unable to do it. So, you know, he does that, but there'll just be things like, you know, I just make sure I've got more alone time during the day when my child is in school or I'll give myself like a 15 minute window between my day ending and going to pick him up from school so that I can just regulate myself and take care of myself before I walk into school and pick him up and go into mum mode.

So, you know, although these things, the experience of the cycle can feel quite impactful, let's say, might feel quite intense, often it's these kind of like relatively little shifts that we can make that really improve the experience of the cycle. And what I typically find in that pre menstrual phase of the cycle is my clients, um, doing too much and rushing. And so they just spend their whole day rushing from one thing to another, always feeling like they're behind, never tending to things. And it just like accumulates as the day goes on. And then by the time, they're home with their partner in the evening or, you know, talking to their boss in the afternoon or something, there's just being like this huge buildup. And it just feels like the pressure is mounting in them. And, then, you know, something that's maybe a bit more explosive happens, whether that's tears or

yelling or, you know, just shutting down or whatever it needs to be. So it's just like how can we release that pressure throughout the day? And often that's by not doing so much, saying no to things and just giving yourself pockets of time and space to recalibrate and not just be rushing around the whole time. Can I ask about how you communicate these boundaries and like this sort of thing in the context of a society that is not very good at having these conversations? So like I get within your relationship and within yourself, but if you have a job that demands more of you than you have to give at a certain point or anything like that, how do you advise people navigate those situations. Well, I think it varies a lot and I coach like a lot of my clients, my membership about

this. Like it's kind of an ongoing issue in all sorts of ways because like you said, so many people that is their reality. That's what they're having to deal with. So it is going to vary. But I think the thing is, it's like first of all is to look at the environment that you're in. Does it feel like a psychologically safe environment where you can actually share some of what's going on and express some of that vulnerability and for thankfully quite a few of my clients that is possible and they were like yeah and they're able to actually have conversations about that one of my clients oh it was amazing she just shared in our community recently about how on her um on her slack profile she'll add like the leaves the emojis of leaves for the seasons so that her colleagues are able to share because

she has a very intense experience pre-menstrually. So when she has like the autumn falling leaves, they know and then like, you know, they're able to make adjustments as a team in consideration of that. So, you know, there's these kind of gentle ways of bringing it in that doesn't have to be like a sit-down meeting with everyone where you tell them everything about your cycle. So things like that, but there are, let's face it, workplace environments that are more predatory and less supportive. And I think that's where we need to be judicious in thinking about how we share, what information we share and how we share it. But, you know, usually my clients

are able to find some way of addressing things. Because like I said, if we take out the menstrual cycle component of it. And we just forget about hormones for a minute. The likelihood is all these issues would still be there. You know, people are still doing three jobs instead of the one job that they're paid to do. So, you know, often it's about like having those professional conversations and, you know, saying, right, current, this is my job description. Here is what's going on. And, you know, are you going to pay me for this job or the work that I'm doing or, you know, whatever the conversation ends up being. So, you know, I think it's just important that we remember that there are options because I think when we're stressed, well, I know when we're stressed,

we forget that we have options because we just go into like threat mode and we perceive a threat and we get very black and white and we think, oh no, I haven't got an option. I have to do this. And then we experience more stress, more overwhelm. and then we get burnt out and then we're having to be signed off and etc. The issue just gets exacerbated. So it's just remembering that we have got power in all of these places and that we have got options and that in itself helps us to regulate and come out of those stress responses.

Going back to the cycle specifically, generally speaking then, is it autumn is the bad time? Yeah, in quotation marks, we can say that. autumn is when we feel like is when hormones negatively impact us the most is that right i would say it's when when we are the versions of ourselves that society doesn't like and therefore that we find uncomfortable i think autumn is a really powerful time when we're able to connect with that version of ourselves but society wants us to be nice and polite and smiling and the version of us in the run up to ovulation that's flirty and everything's okay and coming

and talk to me. I'll have sex with you. Right. It doesn't want the autumn version of us that's like, I'm sick of things being at the bottom of the stairs. Pick up your own socks. Why is there dishes in the sink? Can I ask something about myself? Postpartum wise, could that be described in any way as an autumn, like a prolonged autumn? Like, where am I at with my, am I, will an end? How many, how many weeks or months is your? Oh, it's been ages. It's been ages and ages. She's nearly 10 months old. Yeah, that's still early days, I would say, postpartum, yeah. And the thing is the thing is like, is like low hormone levels. Yeah. So it is all, it is like that then, right? Like, in a very simplistic, in a very simplistic way of thinking, because that's all I have. Well, I would

think of it more as like a prolonged winter going into spring. Oh, okay. That's good. That feels hopeful. Yeah. Low hormone, because it is low hormone levels. I mean, you know, in terms, especially when, um, when someone's breastfeeding, although someone's, you know, some people can be breastfeeding and their cycle will come back, you know, fairly soon, but for others, I mean, it took me kind of two, two plus years, I think. But when that's going on, you know, it's like, I remember, like, struggling to get up off the floor because my knees were hurting. I'd be, like, just feel like an old woman. And that's because there's just low levels of hormones. We haven't got estrogen and its beneficial effects on our bones, on our joints, on our cognition. So I can

remember like postpartum, you know, trying to describe, like my partner would say, oh, where's this? And first of all, we can question why he was asking me where something was in the first place. Anyway, we'll gloss over that for now. But I remember trying to, I knew, I could see where something was in my mind, but I couldn't find the words to describe it. And that's what estrogen gives us. It gives us those verbal skills and ability to think clearly and to communicate things. So when estrogen is peaking in the run-up to ovulation, that's a great time to deliver a talk or go on a podcast or, you know, be interviewed, things like that. And that's not to say that you can't do those things at other times, but they just might require a bit more of you

and a bit more kind of preparation and self-care in order to do them, you know, pretty smoothly. Whereas in the run up to ovulation, you know, testosterone has us taking risk. You're like, oh, what the hell I can do it? I don't need to think about this too much. Let's go for it. And then, so energy-wise is spring the best time as well then? Often people find like spring and summer, that's when, you know, so coming out of the period, gradually increasing energy levels and then kind of peaking around ovulation. But some people are very energized by, you know, in their autumn. And there's like a Wildness and an adventure, quality of adventure can kind of come in. And some people like feel very energized in their autumn. So it's not that, you know, we all have the same experience of the

cycle and, you know, everyone's autumn is bad. Some people absolutely love it and feel really at home in that phase of the cycle. So, and it changes across our reproductive lifetime as well. I did, I have never enjoyed my autumn. I haven't had. I haven't had. I was the same as M. I had the marina coil for six years, I think. So I didn't have a period during that time. And then since I've had the marina coil out, I haven't had periods at all. Still, not sure why. But I remember distinctly the autumn phase being very mentally hard.

Like that feeling of kind of wanting to run away, but not knowing where to. Yeah. Oh, God, Al, that literally's me. That's how I feel all the time. in that moment. Yeah, but it is, there's that need to, like, walk away and to leave. And I actually, especially as a mum myself, I think that being able to follow that and being able to leave and then come back is really important.

Yeah. Really important, especially, like, you know, if you're the primary caregiver and you're with your kids, like, most of the day, most of the night, all of those things. get like leaving we need to be able to do that we need to be able to leave yeah i haven't left yeah give me time on that but right that can just be like leaving walking around the block and coming back oh yeah no i do leave like that i yeah i just i haven't left the night yet but that's the sort of that's the urge i'm getting but it's just the way you described it out like that like that like like that feeling like like it's an overwhelming feeling like i want to go but i and it's what you

were saying before as well maybe about like the stress that you feel and you feel that you haven't got options and I don't know I'm having so many lightball moments but what's quite interesting is before we started recording I said to Al that I I hadn't really got my head around this sort of thing yet and I there's still like there's a little inner boomer in me that just thinks that we need to just like get on with it and it's so toxic like I hate myself for it but sometimes when I think about it I'm like oh mustn't grumble like got to crack on. It's just a period. Half of us have them, blah, blah, blah. You know what I mean? And it's not good. It's not good. But having this conversation, it feels so freeing and

amazing. But I've had to like put aside my, I guess what I've been taught, my like kind of attitude towards periods. It's a bit of a tricky one. Because as much as I'm like, you know, yes, take the time you need, you know, rest, take care of yourself during the times that are challenging. There's also like the part of me that doesn't want us to be kind of be held back by the menstrual cycle and having periods has historically and currently being used against us in all sorts of ways in terms of like our hormones make us a bit of a liability or unreliable. We have like all of these things and that can be held against us professionally. in all sorts of ways.

So it's that kind of, yes, there are things we can do that support us, but that doesn't mean there are things that we can't do. And there's that kind of classic meme of anything you can do, I can do bleeding, which, you know, is true. And we can do those things and we do those things. But are there times when it would be better for us not to? And I think that's the power in what you're saying. I hear what you're saying, but it's so powerful that we can learn what's going on

and at what times it's going on hormonally with us and learning how we can work with our hormones rather than against them and give ourselves the leeway and the grace and space when we can. Okay, it might not always be possible, but when we can. And just the power of knowing, I think, is so, so it's just like I said it's like it was revolutionary totally to me at least like to understand all these hormone fluctuations and like why I feel I might feel like this and it's yeah it's it's mind-blowing yeah it makes such a huge difference you know when I think back to

when my son was quite young and and I did have my cycle back and had another mum mate and she had her cycle back as well. And thankfully at that point in time, our cycles were opposite. So when she had her period, I was ovulating and vice versa. And it just meant that she would be able to send me a message going like, oh, I'm approaching my winter. And I would know like, okay, Frankie can come over and have dinner with us tonight. I can do stuff with the kids to give her that reprieve that she needed and then, you know, when it flipped round and it was me with my period, she would, you know, do that. So I think, you know, we can't forget about the importance of community and that when we have community, that's what enables us to really lean into these things,

whether that's, you know, other mummates or whether it's colleagues at work, you know, it's finding, finding that community and support around you that enables you to live in appreciation of what's going on with your body and your cycles. And I guess like pushing past the stigma as well around periods. I mean, I grew up in an environment that wasn't very, like we didn't talk about periods. Periods didn't really exist. And if we were on our periods, we had to, you know, I felt like I had to hide it all class. I never told. anyone I was on my period. And I guess that's also like a British thing as well, right? We're not very open like that and free. Whereas actually, as you've explained, there's such benefit from being able to express like, I'm at this point in my cycle. I just need a bit more whatever you might need. So I think it's pushing past the stigma as well, right? Yeah. And I think it's just like

destigmatizing it in ourselves first and just thinking like, well, what if this is just like the fact of the situation really and you're just telling the facts to someone else you know and you know sure there might be some people it doesn't feel like that's a good idea to share it with and I think it's important to to honour that kind of inner wisdom yeah but more often than not I think it's like just fear of what other people will think and if we kind of sort our own thinking out around it and think this is no big deal this does happen to half the population most of which will get it But, you know, I exist in a bit of a bubble because everyone knows my work and, you know, feels comfortable talking about these things to me. So it is interesting when I'm in a situation where I'm around people who don't know my work, aren't familiar with talking about the cycle, which, you know, doesn't happen that often, but sometimes it does.

And I have it, I started learning how to horse ride this year. And my horse riding instructor was like, oh, you're like very, like, soft in your hip movement today, Maisie. And I was like, oh, that's because I'm about to ovulate. So, you know, of course I'm like softened my pelvis. And she was like, oh. And I was like, oh, yeah, other people aren't used to talking about these things. And, you know, but it's, I think when I do have those conversations with people who don't know, who aren't used to having those conversations themselves, I say it's so matter of factly and like it's no big deal that I think that then, in their response. And I also know that any response they have has nothing to do with me and everything to do with them. So if they're uncomfortable, it's because they are uncomfortable with their body and the things that happen to it. And, you know, that's how we can, by having those conversations, just remove the shame around our bodies. This has been so amazing. I honestly, I feel so

So good. Enlightened. I'm really excited. It's my period to come back now. I can't believe I'm saying that. I'm like, come on. I need to track you. I want natural cycles redadloaded.

I've got to get going. Can you use it when you're, can you can't. There's a point. There's nothing for me to track right now, is there? Just, well, while you're here. I mean, there are like some fluctuations that go on. I think the thing that I suggest people pay attention to when they're postpartum is what's happening with their cervical fluid levels.

because low estrogen levels usually result in having like vaginal dryness and kind of pain with having sex, etc. It's the same thing that happens in perimenopause once estrogen levels start to lower. So one indication that your cycle could be on its way back is if you start to notice an increase in cervical fluid. And often people say, you know, they just feel a bit of a boost in energy and mood and things like that at the same time. Yeah, I haven't had that boost. Watch this space for the boosted energy. No.

But it can kind of come in what you feel like maybe a little bit and then it just like needs to get to the point where it reaches the tipping point of ovulation and then a period follows after that. Well, that is something to look forward to. But I am going to devour your book. I'm so excited. Yes.

I'm going to leave the link in the show notes so that others can do the same. Definitely. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming on sharing. You're welcome. It's been wonderful to be here. Great questions. I've thoroughly enjoyed myself. Oh, good. Thank you. And yes, link to your book, period power in the show notes. Thank you so much, Maisie. You're welcome. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.