Should I Delete That? - Periods, pain and being ignored: Naga Munchetty on the women’s health crisis

Episode Date: June 1, 2025

Women's healthcare is in crisis - and things need to change.Today’s guest is the legendary broadcaster Naga Munchetty - Naga is one of the UK’s most high-profile journalists known for her work on BBC Breakfast and BBC 5 Live. But behind her incredible career, Naga has been living with a debilitating condition: since her teenage years, she’s suffered from excruciatingly painful periods… so severe they caused her to vomit, faint, and miss out on everyday life.After being diagnosed with a condition called adenomyosis at the age of 47 - Naga made it her mission to advocate for better healthcare for women and in Naga’s new book It’s Probably Nothing she draws on her own experience of being dismissed, undiagnosed and misdiagnosed to explores the devastating outcome of decades of ingrained medical misogyny. It’s Probably Nothing: Critical Conversations on the Women's Health Crisis and What We Can Do About It is out now. You can buy your copy here!Follow @tvnaga on Instagram JOIN US FOR OUR BIGGEST EVER LIVE SHOW - we'll be taking over Edinburgh's iconic Usher Hall for one night only on 3rd September 2025 for an evening of unfiltered chat, big laughs, and meaningful connection, live on stage. You can buy tickets at SIDTlive.com!If you'd like to get in touch, you can email us on [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Dex RoyVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Sarah EnglishMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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meaning you can come alone and meet other like-minded should I delete that fans. Brought to you by SimProve the UK's number one gut supplement. I had heavy periods from the age of 15 and when I say heavy I'm talking about flooding I'm talking about setting an alarm at night to change a super plus tampon, fainting.

I'm talking about vomiting every time I had my period through pain, still carrying on and being told it was normal, so never, ever bringing it up again. Hello, and welcome back to Should I Delete That? Today's guest is the legendary broadcaster, Naga Munchetti. Naga is one of the UK's most high-profile journalists, but behind her incredible career, Nagar has been living with a debilitating condition. Since her teenage years, she's suffered from excruciatingly painful periods, periods that were so severe that they caused her to like vomit, faint,

and to just miss out on everyday life. It wasn't until 47 that Naga was finally diagnosed with adenomyosis, a common but under-recognised gynecological condition. Since then, Naga has made it her mission to be an advocate for women's health. In her new book, it's probably nothing. Naga draws on her own experience of being dismissed. undiagnosed and misdiagnosed to explore the devastating outcome of decades of ingrained medical misogyny. This episode is packed with incredible practical advice from how to approach

talking about your period with your employer to how to have a good GP appointment. And it's also a battle cry to get us talking about an issue that demands urgent change. Here's Nagar. Hi, Nagar. Hello. Thank you so much for coming to talk to us and congratulations. Thank you very much. We have been so excited to talk to you about the work that you've been doing, the book that you've written.

The gender pain gap in general, women's health, the under research, all of it is something that we find ourselves talking about both anecdotally, personally, but also as sort of like as a social commentary. more and more. And I feel like this is just the most perfectly timed, desperately needed book. I guess an obvious place to star is what compelled you to write it in the first place? Rage. Just like you, spoken to friends, you know, women you meet and it comes up and it's just like this, it exists, but we don't talk about it or we don't make a fuss about it. And that dawning realization that still stuff isn't being done even though it obviously is happening and just because something is common doesn't mean it's normal and being told to normalize your pain your discomfort you know the fact that things are limiting your quality of life limiting your ability

to be your best self and I have a condition called adenomyosis which wasn't diagnosed till I was 47 but I had heavy periods from the age of 15 and When I say heavy, I'm talking about flooding. I'm talking about setting an alarm at night to change a super plus tampon and a big heavy period towel and lying on a towel because I was so worried about my sheets being stained and the mattress being stained because you'd flood through. I'm talking about fainting.

I'm talking about vomiting every time I had my period through pain for 48 hours, that extreme tiredness still carrying on trying to be the best I could be at school, trying to be the best I could be at uni and at work. not complaining and being told it was normal, so never, ever bringing it up again. And it was only when I had bad bleeding, I had an ovarian cyst, bad bleeding had a scan, they found adenomyosis. And even then when they found it, one, you went to the NHS England website and there was one link. Adonomyosis is this condition. The link was to hysterectomy. So the only answer to women's

pain for that condition was excision. That's bonkers because you can have adenomiosis at any age and it's often undiagnosed. I also had had a coil fitting and I've never been pregnant. So my cervix has never opened and I have a small vaginal canal. And so whenever I used to have cervical smears, it was always really painful for years and you'd get blood in the sample. And so you'd have to go back and have it again. It was only one doctor who years. This was in my late 20s who said, maybe even early 30s, we can use a child speculum on you because up until then I'd had an adult one. And that transformed that experience. So I was never going to stop having cervical smears. So when you have the coil fitted, you need a speculum to open up your vagina

walls and so have access to the cervix. And the doctor had said, no, I have to use an adult speculum. So that was painful enough. And then the actual experience, I fainted twice on the bed, screaming to the point that my husband was running around the surgery going, where is she? Where this, what is happening is not right. Fainted on the bed after. And I just thought, and this doctor did everything. She was well trained. She did everything. She even said, we can stop. And I was like, we've got this bloody far. Let's get, you know, let's get it done. But women should not have to go through this. And I hadn't been offered anesthetic. I could have had this as an outpatient procedure

and we changed that by I spoke about this and it's a really uncomfortable thing I think initially to talk about yourself particularly as a journalist because my job is to facilitate the story is to talk to someone and find out their story and get their story told well to our audience but you are never it

but I remember just thinking I remember being persuaded once I told about my coil story that if you've gone through this And you're a woman who doesn't shy away from speaking up or challenging the status quo. Think of all those women who haven't got that voice, who haven't got that confidence. And when we did it, we were flooded 1 5 Live with listeners who were saying, I thought it was just me or heavy periods, whatever. And so that's what compelled me just the fact that I have a voice,

I have the ability and the access to reach people to, tell me their stories, who do trust me. And all the women and men I've spoken to have trusted me to tell me their stories. And I thought, I'm not going to be quiet about this anymore. Good for you. I have the same coil story. Like, hearing that, it was like, I did you? Yeah. The first time I had the coil fitted, I threw up from pain, and then I fainted when I stood up. And then I went home and I went, well, I've got dinner. I was actually at my anniversary. So I was like, well, going on for dinner now. And I remember just limping home being like, that was fucking awful. And I went

and I had flatmates and I got home and I was like, I don't want to make a big deal out of this. So I just sort of was like, yeah, not great. I'm alright. And then I was like bleeding for ages and then it was like. I was in my gym gear. Because I thought I could go to the gym after because I've just been told to pop a couple of paracetamor before. Yeah, they did give me like you. They did two attempts and then I had a

contraction. My body was like, out you go. And then the guy was like, we need to stop and I was like, we have come this far exactly as you said. And then he said, well, we can put local anaesthetic in and we can inject it in. And I thought why the fuck didn't you do that in the first place but he hadn't so I was like okay can you do it now and then they injected it and then it went in so that was how I got there but I did

occur to me afterwards I was like they offered that a bit late let's see how much pain you can go through before we actually try to make this in easier we can make you but it is incredible how much pain we are expected to bear women until I mean until what point

until someone believes that you're in enough pain to be helped which is disgusting But I mean, coil and cervical smear tests aside, like your period sounds debilitating. Yeah. And you've had that every month since you were. Oh, I was every three weeks and bled for 10 days. Every three weeks.

My God. I would bleed heavily for eight and the last two would be like the end of your period. And then 10 days after I'd start again. Over the years, have you made many attempts to get some kind of diagnosis, get some help for your periods? No. No, because I was told it was normal. So you shut up. You shut up.

You gaslight yourself because you think I'm not coping and everyone else is fine and I'm making a fuss about nothing. Was it one sort of early, was it someone saying shut up or was it sort of a societal noise that just you felt expected to shut up? It probably started, yeah, I went to the doctor. I remember 17 I went to the doctor to go on the pill because I had become sexually active. And I knew that the pill, I'd heard that the pill could reduce the pain. And at least with the pill, I would only have a period every 21 days. So that was a relief. But still when it came, it was as horrific.

And you take a seven-day break and then you start getting. And I'd still be bleeding even when I started the next seven-day break. So they weren't any lighter. They weren't more manageable. They were just at least three weeks, definitely three weeks apart. And I explained this. And then I was just told, oh, when you have a baby, it'll be better. Or when you get older, it will be better.

Never once was I asked, well, do you want to have children? Or do you want to live your life like this until at some magical point, it will be better? Yeah, you know. So I just, I stopped bringing it up. And I also talk speaking to friends, like there's a bit in the book where I talk about, I don't know if you've ever had this. Like you've got a hot poker shoved up your anus. And my friend, I remember bringing out with my friend and she said, that's wind.

I'm like, I've had wind before, that ain't wind. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So you end up just not talking about it as much. Yeah, I got that at the end of pregnancy. They call it like shooty bum pain or something. Lightning Fanny or. Yeah, it's like, could we not call it something out?

Like if a man had it, they wouldn't call it shooting bomb pain. I was just so like, this makes you feel like a fucking idiot. Yeah, fine. But I'm shooting then, never mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, oh, God, I get annoyed. Just get annoyed. I want to ask about your diagnosis.

But firstly, could you explain, because I have to admit, embarrassingly, I'd never heard of adenome. Neither at I. You can say it two ways. Adenomyosis. Adenomyosis. Or adenomyiosis. Okay.

I say adenomyiosis. Either is fine. Either either is fine. I've never heard of it. Obviously I've heard of endometriosis, but probably not until like fairly recently because... Well, we've had brilliant women talking about endometriosis. Adonomyosis is considered like the evil twin sister

of endometriosis. So endometriosis is predominantly affects the lining of the uterus. And you have endometrium, endometrial lining. And it's when it really, really builds, and you have painful and debilitating periods, that's endo. Adonoh works its way outside the uterus. So the endometrium works its way out. So when it was diagnosed with me,

it's seen in like my hip area and the muscles outside my uterus. And the way they see it in scans, and this is a whole other problem as well, how sonographers are trained. The way they saw it, one sonographer saw it, was you see these stripes, they're like Venetian blinds in the muscle. And it's because when the endometrium is there and your cycle kicks off and estrogen is produced, it expands. So it tears the muscle. So the stripes you're seeing are the tears from that. I can see your faces. It sounds like something from a Ridley Scott film It doesn't sound like

It's something that's happening in your body As you carry on your life And so it's spread So it's in my pelvis It's in my hips and it And you know you get that pain in your thighs When you have your period You ever have that in your thighs

It can work down there And it's in the lower back as well Now At this moment in time I'm in no pain And when you dull the hormonal cycle You dull the endometrium Kind of kicking off And when you produce estrogen

It flares but it also is really difficult to see. So I had two scans and the first one they found it and the next synographer said, you haven't got a adenomyosis because they couldn't see it. And I explained the book different ways of having transvaginal scans

and various sonograms. But it's very difficult to diagnose but it is thought that around one in eight women have it. No way. And they don't know because there's not enough research into it. So it's expected that end of the end of the same. Metriosis takes about 10 years on average to be diagnosed, right, or seven years to get a diagnosis. Do you have any statistic like that for? I don't know. I don't because I don't,

I think it's something that's been known about, but hasn't been spoken about. And often it's diagnosed when you diagnose with endometriosis or diagnosed with another issue. Could you have both? Yes. Oh, God. Yes. Often women who have endo have adeno. Yeah. And again, it's not easy to diagnosed. Would I be right in thinking that oftentimes diagnosis comes because a woman is trying to have a baby? I just wonder, sorry. I have views on this in terms of I think that when a woman says she wants to get pregnant, she's taken much more seriously. That's kind of why I'm asking. And I think then they will try everything they can to facilitate a woman having a baby and look at fertility and look at problems in terms of being able to have an egg lodged, you know,

and hold it, hold it there or if your periods are regular. I think up until then, crack on. You're not of any use until you're going to have a baby, are you? It's not a problem for us until you're going to, you know, like certainly a EU problem then, isn't it? And then, so if you're a woman who then doesn't want to have children, like me, when I was told about this, I was told to have a hysterectomy. So why would I want to go through early menopause, even if I kept my ovaries and didn't go through that, why would I then want to have a major operation and cut a bit out of me, even though it had spread?

So that, you're not going to cut it all out my pelvis. And because I wouldn't want to go into early menopause, I'd still have my ovaries, so I'd still produce the estrogen, so I'd still have the problem. So that's not great. No. Is there a lot being done, anything being done? I've spoken to some amazing women. and men who are researching this

but the funding for women's health as you are aware and reproductive health is not enough and so there is work being done and there's work being done just looking at how heavy women's periods are because we're told at school, aren't we? It's two or three teaspoons.

Bullocks. I've always thought bollocks to that. It can't be. It is ridiculous. It can't be. But in my generation, I'm a lot older than you two. My generation, you weren't asked what does your tampon look like or your moon cup we didn't have they weren't really as common then

or your period pad look like um so you would say it's heavy but because there was no proper guideline i spoke to a 10 year a girl who started her periods at 10 and i don't know when you had the talk she had it at 11 as i did um at the last year of primary school as we called it then i don't know what year that is the years are all different we used to call it 40 years i think yeah and um She was told, oh, it's only a few teaspoons, and she put a hand up, but she'd started at 10. And she said, no, it isn't. The teacher just gave her a look as if to say, no, no, no, no, no, don't scare, you know, as if to say don't scare the other girls.

If you, as young girls and young boys are not being told the truth or the possibility that what's considered normal will not happen to you, you just, you don't talk about it, you think you might be abnormal, but you don't say anything about it, and you keep the problem there, whereas it could be diagnosed so much earlier. as for recording this it's gyneological cancer awareness month and they the evil pill the charity gyne cancer charity say that if you don't know your normal you won't know what's not normal and that's the most dangerous thing in the world because you know if we can't even recognize I mean most of us it's like 73% of

women in the UK think their vagina is their vulva or vice versa and it's like if we've not even got the the language for this stuff there's no way we can advocate for any of help because you don't like you say like you don't know and I've got I was terrified on my period I was so embarrassed you know before you even get talking about vagina I think I'd died but like did you start really early then no not really I think I started at 13 so you that to me is early is it it's not now these days but I started late and yeah and I was desperate to start it because I just wanted to be like everyone else yeah because everyone had it and everyone was growing boobs and stuff that never really changed but you know but so

For me, I wasn't, I was embarrassed whilst it was happening, but I was actually more embarrassed that I hadn't started my period when everyone else had. So you spend all those years kind of being anxious about not being the same as everyone else. But we still didn't talk about it. Not knowing what was coming for you, given how brutal they were, the periods. Yeah. I was in a department store and had like really bad diarrhea, saw there was blood,

and wanted to throw out and felt really nauseous. When you started? Yeah, didn't know what the hell was going on. My mum gave me a big period towel. because that's what she had. I mean, I was a skinny little 15-year-old with this huge... Like nappy.

Napy. It was awful. It was awful. And you feel filthy because you're not taught about what you can use, you know, in period products. And, yeah, it was hard. Especially if you thought it's only two or three teaspoons.

Yes. And it's like flying out of you. Like, what the hell? Fast forward to your diagnosis. Were you... relieved, were you frustrated that you had spent such a long time not knowing what was going on, not having this diagnosis, was it a bit of both? How did you feel when you were diagnosed? The problem with the diagnosis of adenomyosis is there's no cure. Yeah, okay. So, yeah,

put a name to it. That's all very well. But then I've explained to you already, the kind of options that were put out there was ablation offered as well, but my uterent, which is when they burn the layer of the lining of the uterus. And it sounds horrific it probably is, but there was no point because my uterine lining is clear, is smooth. So that was pointless. And I was told, well, what will that do if there's no problem with my uterine? It might help. Well, I'm not going to undergo a procedure that might help, like the hysterectomy. It might help, no, it's not going to help, is it? It's spread. So relieved, no, kind of, I suppose, satisfied that there was a name to it,

that there was a reason this was, my body was doing this. But then I just got angry. Because I, I mean, look, don't get me wrong. I have a nice life. I have two, three, you know, whatever, amazing jobs. I do things I enjoy. But it's been limited. I've not been able to be my best self all the time.

Because basically, I was dismissed, this condition. Even though it wasn't diagnosed, the symptoms of it were dismissed. And me having very painful periods and heavy periods, never wearing white trousers, I still doubt. I have one beautiful white tuxedo suit. And even though I don't bleed, I'm petrified of wearing it, you know what I mean? And never wear white knickers. What's the point?

Because I'd have ruined them. They would have been ruined. What's the point? So I never wear white knickers. it's a problem. I'm not showing my knickers to everyone, but, you know, all these little things that go through your head. I was annoyed and I still am annoyed that I know there were times when I would turn up at work and I did shift work, you know, and I would get up at 2.30 in the morning or 2 in the morning to go to work and just feel like death warmed up and think,

is it showing that I'm not here? I'm not 100%. And going to the toilet and even now, you know, I do breakfast, I do five live, you have a very limited time to go to the loo three minutes. Yes, there's a loon year. But if you had to change your period products, you would have to think, right, there must be a longer tape or VT that I can go under and not make a fuss. And then worry that someone's thinking, oh, she's gone for a poo. Do you know what I mean? Not a poo is not embarrassing, but just all those things, you kind of,

those layers that you have. But there's also like an element of professionalism that we have, that we've got such a horrible attitude towards, quote, unquote, women's issues, that it's hysterical, but like, we're just emotional, we're on periods we're just difficult and we're hard to deal with. And you've also operated in a pretty male-dominated industry throughout your career. And it's, I, I, that's the thing I have been the most curious to talk to you about is showing up as you have. You have to show up every day. And like you say, you're not the story. You have to make other people, you have to be so

present to interview and to concentrate and to give everything you have. to somebody else, but you have to do that when 20 days out of the month, you're bleeding like that. It's savage. Yeah. I don't know how you do it. Have you felt... You say you don't know how you do it, right? Okay. You were breastfeeding before we began this, right? You're a mum of two. You do it. Yeah, you do. We do, we just do it. And you do it because you've, your condition or the state of your body is normalised. And when I was in the industry, you know, I became a journalist 22. You did not talk about your period because it would be made a joke of.

And I'm not even, I'm not blaming the men in the room. I'm not blaming the women in the room. It was all normalized like that. And obviously it's much better now. I can't think of one boss if I said, I've got my period. I feel awful. I need extra time. to go to the toilet, who would deny me that?

I'm comfortable saying that now if I have to. I don't bleed anymore because I take, because of the pill I'm taking now. But you just, you didn't do that. And also, I do think that women have that extra layer of having to be better. And add all the other social constructs as to why we have to be better, color of your skin, class, you know, background, whatever. you certainly don't add that to your weakness list.

It does go in the cond pile, doesn't it? Now, why would you hire her? She's difficult because she's got all those problems. Oh! It makes me cross. You talked about the anger and the rage that you said propel you to write the book. I can't imagine that that rage dissipated through... It's got worse.

Right. Yeah, well, yeah, I thought I was going to say that it was a catharty. Were you able to challenge the rage or did it just snowball? The thing that has encouraged me is speaking to people who are really working, brilliant people who are really working hard to dispel myths, to push for more funding, to do this research. But the problem is, is who's granting the money. And that is still very much male dominated and business. dominated. So what cells? Viagra cells? Right? Yep. Does a pill to, you know, does transemic acid, probably pronounce that incorrectly, does that cell as well, which can help minimize bleeding. Doesn't guarantee it, but can help. You know, do better moon cups cell, do better ways of measuring period blood cell. It's not sexy science. No. That's the phrase I learned, sexy science. I just, what makes me so angry is there are people who are doing this work, yet 51% of the population

is being held back. And so when you have conversations like, oh, there's a glass ceiling and there aren't enough women in business, well, think about what they're doing. They're caring. They're trying to prove themselves to be better and work harder than their male counterpart so that they're not considered weak women who have a time in the month and may have, I never had PMS ever. So I didn't have that to contend with as well. to people with PMDD where you can be suicidal and feel like you're going mad and have no explanation for it and be left undiagnosed with that and just considered a considered kuku highly strung so I am encouraged that there are people fighting for it I'm just I just look at the

system and the people who are not hearing what needs to be done and I just think we need to talk about it with all generations you know you hit a much younger audience say than I might hit it. Well, if someone, I was thinking that with you saying, you know, like now you don't think you've got a boss who would deny you what you needed. I don't think they could. No. But like you say, you are a very outspoken, confident person who's researched back,

who's had a lifetime of this, who was angry and cross and you've got there, right? But like for someone who's listening to this, for someone who's out there who's like 20, who's experiencing this, never mind, you know, fighting for a diagnosis and fighting for their life on that side of things. They've also got to operate within a working environment. And I don't know how, I mean, I don't know if this came up in the book. I don't know if this came up in conversations you have. I don't know if you have any advice just from your own life. But what are our rights in terms of advocating for ourselves with this? How do we, should we be operating? Because yeah, in an ideal world, we can go to our boss and say, like, I'm having a

savage period this month and I'm whatever and I'm ill and it's valid. But that's not really the reality for most people. So in the book, one of the chapters I wrote which I was really quite worried about writing was how to have a good GP appointment because I don't want to patronise anyone because most people think, I know what to do. I ring up the GP. I fight, you know, to get an appointment, which can be really difficult. And then I tell them what's wrong.

No, you make a list. You keep a diary of your symptoms. When you go to a GP appointment, it is a partnership because they want to. They're puzzle solved. you know and they want to find out what's wrong but in an eight minute 10 minute appointment if you go oh I've just got really achy periods and then leave it out leave it like that it's not going to get anywhere you you are specific and I think with talking to your workplace be specific don't feel embarrassed because it's your body so if you say you say you say when I have

my period on day one and day two I don't sleep I faint I vomit I have diarrhea and and I have severe period cramps. I'm probably taking too many painkillers, which is what I did for years, which I wouldn't recommend because that then wrecks your stomach. Yeah, it's not good for any of you. And you make it really clear and say, I want to come to a solution because I am good at my job.

I will be even better because I'm young and I'm learning. But I want to be afforded consideration as to how to still stay a valuable member of this corporation, this business, whatever. But you need to understand that there are certain times, my work needs to be modified, not lessened, modified. Because everyone, you don't go into a job and just do one thing. You're not tapping a wall nonstop. You're doing so many things and you're supposed to be multi-skilled in any profession.

You make them work with you. But you have to tell them. You can't say I don't feel great or I'm embarrassed because it's pointless because you're also educating them as well, whether they want to be educated or not. And if you don't speak up, your children won't speak up. It will stay unspoken. How many times have we heard from women in their 70s, 80s now, who didn't talk about postnatal depression,

who didn't talk about going through the menopause and were given antidepressants instead of HRT, any consideration, who were discarded in life as hags, you know, worthless and worthless, unseen women. These days you look up now and you see women, who aren't unseen, but you see so many who were, who disappeared from life into the shadows to be the quiet grandma or someone who just, you know, who did the cooking or sat and didn't,

didn't socialise, didn't go out because they had osteoporosis and they weren't told about the warnings. You see what I mean? If we don't talk about it, we'll keep, women will stay physically, emotionally and mentally weaker than they need to be. Well, we let them disappear, don't we? Yeah. You're so right about employees. as well that you're educating them not only for you but for everyone else that they employ all of the other women they employ don't underestimate how powerful you are you said about the section of your book how to have a good GP appointment I don't think that's patronising at all I think that's probably one of the most powerful things you could put in the book because it's something that

I imagine a lot of us struggle with like you're talking I'm about like women they don't feel as confident or who are younger and they don't know how to speak up or advocate for themselves like even I like I'm fairly outspoken I'm quite confident I kind of melt when I go into the GP because I'm like they're so busy I'm taking up so much of their time write it down I don't know if this is big enough for me to be here and like I had last year weird situation but I gave birth at the start of last year and I had a retain placenta and I basically for nine months I bled and bled and bled and bled and I just bled through everything I was like carrying around a blanket with me to put down on things and it was it was just awful like it was like every half of it an hour, just bleeding, bleeding, bleeding. And it took me, I think it was four GP appointments to get referred and to get seen. And it can be so, it can be fatal, what she has. Yes. And I'm, you know, I'm, okay, I haven't done much research into the women's health crisis,

but we talk about it, I know about it, I know to advocate, I should have known to advocate more for myself, but it's hard when you go into those situations and you feel not powerless, but I guess you're, you're with a person of authority. and you're very aware of how much time that you're taking up and time that the NHS doesn't have and you're worried that your symptoms aren't big enough and that you shouldn't be there and I think it's just really important

that we know how to get the most out of these really precious appointments. Also, don't underestimate that when a woman goes to a GP, goes to a doctor or when a woman asks for help, she hasn't just decided on the spur of the moment. It's probably taken months, weeks, you know, of pain, discomfort to actually say, okay, maybe I should get this addressed or her partner or her friends have gone, have you seen someone about this enough times? Otherwise, you've got, you had a baby. You had a baby to look after. And you were bleeding. And you were probably told, oh, yeah, it's just

normal after giving birth that you bleed. But you knew your own body. And you may not have had the time to write down every time you bled or how much you were bleeding. But it was negatively impacting your life. The simplest reason to go to a GP, to go to a doctor is, is this negatively impacting my life? Is it stopping me from being the best I can be? If the answer is yes, book an appointment. And write it down, tell them what's happening. So they can't ignore it.

And if you have any questions, you write them down before. And if it's a really long list, you say to the receptionist, this is the problem, I need a double appointment. You can ask for a double appointment. You can insist on being seen face to face, not to have a phone appointment, not to have like a Zoom or Teams, whatever, meeting. And you can ask for a double appointment? Yes, yes, yes, you can.

So if it's a long-standing problem that someone's finally plucked up the courage to go with, they can, that's really, really good to know. And if you do not feel confident about asking all those questions or you feel, one thing we do is, so I could be writhing around the floor, I used to sleep on the floor because I thought if I'm really uncomfortable on the floor, then it will detract from my pain. Does that make sense? In a really twisted way, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. You know, like, you dig your, you know if you've been pain and you dig your thumbnail into your palm of your hand, so you did, you defer the pain. Yeah. I used to do that. But I never said that to the doctor, you know, because I just thought that sounds really overdramatic. But if you have a partner or a friend who has noticed you doing that or has even, one doctor advises with your permission to film what you're like, video, what you're like, so they can show it. Often their testimony is the testimony you just think, no, that's my normal or, or what you. I'm just being over-dramatic, and it's not.

So you can take an advocate with you as well, anyone. You can take each other. I've seen her. I'm working with her and she's not right. She's got a puppy pad and she's bleeding. And she's not making enough of a fuss about it. I'm just going to sit there and I'll let her tell her story. But if she plays it down, I'll say, no, no, no, this is what's happening.

It's a frustrating thing, isn't it? It does feel that we're so accepting of women's pain, of women's suffering. I guess the language that we kind of met with from the beginning is that we're curse. It's the curse, isn't it? You get your period. And it's like, it sort of does feel that within that, within pregnancy, within periods, within womanhood, that you just, you accept pain. And our bar is just too high. I mean, it's just so high. And I don't know, I don't know a single woman. I don't know a single woman who would just be confident in, in accepting help or not feeling like a bit of a twit for asking. I, you know, failure. Yeah.

Yes, yes. I was very ill when... And not woman enough. Yeah, exactly. I was very ill when I was pregnant and I had a really good consultant and I was, and it was my second pregnancy and I had high premises and both. And I still hated going, hated advocating. Like you were saying with the advocate, my husband would have to do it and have to, if we

had to call them or whatever, I'd never do it. And I'd wait until he's like, right, well, I'm going to have to do it because you just won't. But thank goodness you had someone who would do that. Not everyone does. But you just feel, isn't it funny though? because if it was Alex or if it was me, you go in their guns blazing,

advocating for that person. But when it comes to yourself, it's just so much more difficult. You feel like you're failing as a woman. You can't have your period properly or you can't, for me, I couldn't do pregnancy properly. So you just feel like everyone else can manage.

Why can't I manage? That's exactly it. Yeah. It's very frightening. And we've got to stop. Yeah. We've got to stop it. Yeah.

Writing this book now for you, I imagine, and I'm putting words in your mouth, but I imagine that you haven't talked about your periods openly for 20 years in the workplace and whatever. You are now on a very public platform telling the world, this is what happens to me or this is what has happened to me, this is my experience. Is that frightening?

No. Is it not? My body is, it's a body. It's not. I, of course, I'm a very private person, but I just think this this uterus it's functional you know most of the women in the world have one and we're told what it's supposed to do and it doesn't do it and I'm not telling you about my sex life or what turns me on or my bra size I don't care if you know but you

know or what shape my boobs are what shape my vulvary is my labia anything I'm not doing that I'm talking about the functionality of a woman's body and us not being told the truth or being told all the truth and I'm not embarrassed about that why should I be embarrassed about that? You know it's like pregnancy why should you not be told

what it's like giving birth and what it's like afterwards in terms of your body recovery and your emotions why are you not told all of that Why are things being hidden from us? Do you think that it's being hidden to keep, I mean, Stop us being scared? Do you think that's it?

And it's not, we've been talking before you came today about the rise of conservatism and, you know, we're seeing a lot of it. We're seeing a lot of traditional family values being pushed and they want women having babies. People, that is what a woman's role is, right, in society. Is there an element of, you don't need to know about any of that stuff? It's going to be great.

Just like be quiet and get on with it. I think it's really difficult. I think that scaring a woman who wants to be pregnant or is pregnant is not healthy and is not useful. However, informing them is. And there is a way to inform without scaring them. And I think that a lot of people haven't figured out how to do that. Same as young girls being told your period will be two or three teaspoons of blood.

when it's not true. If you inform them and if you say what is normal, considered normal is this, but you can bleed and you can have clots. Clots are normal as well

but if you're having clots bigger than whatever that is something to be concerned about. So it's like we're being given some of the facts and not all of them. Now a girl's not going to go away from a conversation going

oh my, oh I'm going to get big clots if you say it can happen. And if it does it's treatable and you can do something about it. But if you don't tell them and then they have it, imagine you're a 10-year-old girl, bleeding like that and with clots. And you've been told this, you've been told nothing.

Just stop holding things back from us and stop trying to paint everything as if we have to be perfect. We have to have perfect periods. Our bellies can't bloat and we can't feel all fat and podgy and want to eat crap. You know, when we're pregnant, our poos are different. when we've given birth, we're too scared to look at our fannies because, you know, our vulvers or lab it because they've been stretched out of all proportion and you might have

had perinatal stitching, you know. And you have terrible piles. Yes. And hemorrhoids. Why are we embarrassed about hemorrhoids? You've got our nose. I'm not embarrassed about hemorrhoids. Love talking about them.

But, you know, why should we be embarrassed? All that is is a weakening of the bowel wall. That's all it is, which is perfectly natural if you've been trying to push something the size of a watermelon out of the size of a hole of a lemon. Do you know what I mean? Of course it's going to happen. Stop telling us these things don't happen. Just tell us they might.

So we're prepared. We're armed. Empowered. Yes. Yeah. Why would you not want women to be empowered and knowledgeable and forewarned? Don't want to answer that question. I know.

It's a bit of a depressing answer. Can we go back to funding? And I don't know if I've got this right. So correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels really depressing that, at the crux of this issue, of the women's health issue, is funding, right? That's what we need in order to solve it. And the reason that we don't have good funding is because it's not sexy science. That is very depressing. Is that right? I don't think it's the only reason, but it is a good reason. Okay. What are the other reasons? Not enough people interested

in that area of work. Is it because it's a male-dominated field medical research? or historically has been? I think it comes down to who grants the funding. Okay. Which with big pharmaceutical companies, often it is more, there are more men at the top who may not have that natural interest and it may not be sold to them. I don't know all the answers for that, but these are experiences I've been told by women in science research and gynecological reproductive health research as well.

I think that has to change at the top as well or there needs to be more understanding from those people at the top of pharmaceutical companies who if they can be pushing the women's health revolution they would be changing the world but it just hasn't been sold to them or they can't they just can't see it they're not living it

but they are living it they have daughters partners mothers they all have mothers do you know what I mean I think there are women but I think there probably are women at the top who aren't living it because they won't let themselves. They won't let themselves. Or simply they don't have any reproductive health problems, which does happen. Yeah. Kind of rarely though, right? I've had female GPs say to me

periods are normal. Your periods are normal. Oh no. Periods are normal. So you're just having periods. Yeah. That's normal. That's the end of that conversation. That is so depressing. Female GPs, I was just trying to see there is a fact about research in here. A report by the NHS Confederation said the economic cost of absenteeism due to severe period pain and heavy periods alongside endometriosis fibroids and ovarian cysts is estimated to be nearly 11 billion pounds a year. Wow. For every one pound of investment into obstetrics and gynecology services per woman in England, there is an estimated return on that investment of 11 £11.18. My goodness. You could get £11 £11 18 back for every pound you put into research

and it's not being done. No. Wow. Women are nothing. Who is not seeing this business opportunity. I know. Forget about empowering women. Forget about keeping women healthy. Make the money. We're showing you the money. Forget about whether you're interested or not. Just, yeah. We are commodities. That's fine. Yes. Yeah. Invest in us. God, that's unbelievable. How annoying? The title of the book, it's probably nothing, obviously comes on the back of something that I suspect a woman, every woman listening has said to herself at some point. Or being told.

Yes, I have a lump under my armpit, which I literally said to Alex this morning, it's probably nothing. Probably nothing. I'm going to go book a doctor's appointment now on the back of this. I had a lump under my armpit just before Christmas and thought it was under my armpit. And I went to the doctor and I was seen that day. And I'd put it off for about two months. and I was seen that day

I was in a breast specialist clinic within two weeks and over the space of a morning I had my ultrasounds my mammograms bloods and I was fine but it was in my breast

and I thought it was in my armpit so the systems are there they're getting better and breast cancer has been I mean it's depressing how much charity has had to go into that to fund breast cancer in the way that it has been but it is now a hugely

funded area of science. And it does show that when the conversation is there and the public interest is there and people get behind it, a real tangible difference is made. You can see, you know, all the studies, if you look at breast cancer versus any other female cancer, it's so much bigger. So that shows the value in this conversation, even. And you are going to book the doctor's appointment today. I was going to say you are.

I think it's a block milk dot. Okay. Yes, okay. Yeah, doctor, you know. You just check that there's a block milk. Noted. What do you want people to take away from this book? I think it's inevitable you'll be angry.

It's not the kind of book you will read from cover to cover in one sitting because I think you can, you know, combust. It's a handbook. I want people to feel empowered to say, okay, I know this is happening. There is a history chapter in there, and it's not like a history lesson, but it explains why we are left dismissed and undiagnosed.

explains who's running things, who ran the history of medicine, we were always seen as adjuncts to men, our bodies. We were never seen as separate bodies. You have to understand that. You have to understand all the socioeconomic layers that mean that you will not be listened to or you are less likely to be listened to. Doctors realize this. Doctors are not bad people. They are rushed. They are under time pressure, under budgetary pressures, as well, economic pressures. And they are not fully served in terms of research. and time. So you need to be aware of this so that you know you need to speak up because the system is there, the status quo is there. So if you know what's going on, you know you have to push harder

and speak up for yourself because you're speaking up for your health primarily, of course, but the health of your family, if I said to you, okay, ignore your health, ignore your lump in your armpit let's just hope your daughter your daughter your children are okay let's just hope that while you're ill and you're uncomfortable and you probably can't you know it's a bit uncomfortable it might be chafing and you might not be able to lift them as quickly then you think about okay I better get this sorted we've got to care for ourselves if you don't care for yourself if it's not you you're most concerned with think about the impact you not being well is going to have on those people you love that's such a um

I don't know what the word is, but for the fact, I think it plays to women being nurturers and first and foremost that often ways, the only way we can get them to advocate for themselves is not to say, do it because you deserve it, but it's like, do it because it's the best way of nurturing the people around you. And I accept that. I don't think it's right. I accept it, but if I'm going to manipulate a woman into looking after her house, I will. No, it's quite beautiful, but it does speak to the sacrifice of women and how low we put ourselves. it's the way we sell it to ourselves as well the way that we believe then that we deserve something

ultimately it's because of someone else for the kids yeah oh man I can't wait to read this book you'll know when I've read it because of steam copy out of my ears for thank you so much for coming and sharing all of that with us it's been absolutely fascinating to talk to you your book is out now

yes I'm an author the book is out now it's probably nothing we're going to put a link in the show notes thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. I've enjoyed the chat. Although your cookies are too old to eat, you need to change our horrible steel cookies. I'm sorry. We need fresh cookies. This is the fourth wall has just crumbled. Thanks guys. Thank you so much. Thank you. Should I delete that as part of the ACAS creator network?