Should I Delete That? - Rugby made me love my body… with Wales International Rugby Union player Gwen Crabb

Episode Date: July 27, 2025

It’s a massive year for women’s rugby - so today we’ve teamed up with the Rugby World Cup 2025 - to speak to Wales International Rugby Union player Gwen Crabb! With the Rugby World Cup 2025 fast approaching, Gwen spoke to us about the barriers young women face in sport, how she overcame them to rise to the top of her sport, and why this moment matters so much for women’s sport. We talked body confidence, media narratives, and how rugby has helped Gwen feel powerful - not just physically, but also mentally. She also shared her hopes for the next generation of girls, and how rugby is evolving to be a place where everyone feels like they belong.The Rugby World Cup 2025 is a huge moment in time for us to show that rugby is sport where everyone belongs, as a fan or as a player. Gwen wants to inspire a new generation of women and girls to feel strong and confident in whatever they do and know they can be anything, do anything and belong anywhere.Every body belongs in sport. Join the conversation to inspire a new generation to feel strong and confident in whatever they do. #StrongBodiesStrongMinds #WhereWeBelong Buy tickets for The Rugby World Cup 2025!Follow @gwencrabb on Instagram Follow @gwencrabb on TikTokFollow @rugbyworldcup on Instagram Follow @rugbyworldcup on TikTok We’re heading to Edinburgh for our biggest live show ever. We’ll be taking over the iconic Usher Hall for one night only on 3rd September. Head to SIDTLive.com for more information and to purchase tickets.Follow us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Dex RoyVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Sarah EnglishMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Whatever body shape I am, whatever body type I am, no matter how much I wait, there's a place for me on the team. Hello and welcome back to Should I Delete that? It is a huge year for women's rugby. The Rugby World Cup 2025 is fast approaching. So we were very excited to welcome Wales International Rugby Union player Gwen Crabb to the studio. Gwen spoke to us about the barriers that young women face in sport, how she overcame them to rise to the top and why this moment matters. so much for women's sport. We talked about body confidence, media narratives and how rugby has helped Gwen feel powerful, not just physically, but also mentally. She also shared her hopes for the next generation of girls and how rugby is evolving to be a place where everyone feels like

they belong. The Rugby World Cup 2025 is a huge moment in time for us to show that rugby is a sport where everyone belongs as a fan or as a player. Everybody belongs in sport. So join us as we have this conversation to inspire a new generation to feel strong and confident in whatever they do. The Rugby World Cup 2025 starts on the 22nd of August. It's being held in eight cities across England and we have left links in the show notes to buy tickets. Here's Gwen. Hello. Hello. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming in. You've got a big summer ahead of you. Yeah. How are you feeling? Yeah, I'm feeling good. I'm really excited. We were just staying off there.

It was cool getting a train up here. I felt like a cool corporate girl. But yeah, it's like, you know, really massive year for women's rugby. And I'm super excited to be able to hear today to chat to you guys a little bit about it. Well, we've got the Rugby World Cup starting, women's rugby World Cup starting in August. But we didn't realize you only get selected for the World Cup six days before the flight. Yeah.

So this year, luckily, obviously it's in England, which is really cool. So the trip is just a little bus journey up to Manchester. So makes things a little bit easier for planning. But the last World Cup was out in New Zealand. And we were going to be gone for six weeks. And yeah, we found out about a week before, which just makes panic packing a whole new thing. Like you've got to, you've got to prepare. You've got to think, yeah, I'm going.

Because if, you know, you've got to start preparing these things, like you have to book your nail appointment. You have to book your eyebrows. you know there's a lot of things but there's so much you have to get prepared mentally physically and like logistically

yeah I need to by the way family I'm going to be like 13 hours behind you or in front of you like you're not going to be able to speak to me for six weeks

you know the same yeah but it is giving love island yeah we don't know I've got the call up I'm going

will I be passed yeah it's so recently they don't tell you earlier I don't know I think it's probably just to make sure

like everyone is fit to go so just to make like coach coaching staff no yeah these are the players i can select from is it the same in other sports i don't know um i would assume that it it probably is a similar time um but like it is just to be like okay these are the the players that i have physically fit that can go yeah um but sometimes i think is it like an emotion like a psychological thing like we're just trying to test you just to see um but yeah i don't know i have to speak some other athletes and find out. As an athlete, do you have to have it in your head? Because me personally, I am of the school that I've got the attitude that would be like, I'm not going, I'm not going get my hopes up, I don't want to be disappointed. But obviously you can't train for a World Cup

with that attitude. So do you have to go into this whole thing being like, I am going? And then you just have to handle the crush if you're not, which you won't, you of course you will be. It's a weird one. And actually, my like, my thought process around that has changed. And I used to be the I'm 100% going like so confident like you know I'm I'm not supposed like I'm training as hard as I can I can I can and then when I got injured and had like a series of injuries naturally that knocks your confidence and then I think more recently I was at of the thought of like okay well you know maybe I'm not good enough to go I'm getting better at that now and as we've been building through preseason I'm like no you know what I'm I deserve a shot at this but it's interesting how like

your experiences and like things like injuries can kind of flip your mindset on something like that because I fully used to be like I literally used to manifest right down on my journal I am the best in the world like in the build up to the last world cup and I was like my confidence was unstoppable and then as soon as I got injured it was like there was multiple injuries not just one but that just kind of hit my confidence down and I'm in a place now where I'm trying to rebuild that back up so I need to start writing I'm the best in the world again. They do. We've got a notepad here.

You can get going. Stop out. You can go on the table if you were? No, that is tough. That is really tough. Can we go back? Can we rewind a bit and go back to how you started out in rugby? Because you actually started out in football, didn't you?

Yeah. Can you talk us through? Yeah, I was really sporty as a kid. Like, absolutely loved anything and everything. The PE teachers used to like take the mick out of me a bit because I used to spend more time with them than any of the other pupils at school. But I was always. always there, like, the first week of school in your seven. I was like, and what sports

clubs are available after school? Like, asking them what I could do. Um, so yeah, and I played football from the age of like three or four. My dad was a goalkeeper. So I used to go and watch him. He was like, my idol. Still it is, if he listens to this. And, um, yeah, I just naturally then started playing in goals, same as him kind of like followed in his footsteps. Um, up until the age of about 14, 15 when I first started playing rugby, one of the girls that I played football, with was like, oh, do you want to come along and try rugby? And I was like, yeah, why not? Like, I'll give anything a go. And then from that first session, I absolutely loved it. And then I was so excited like every week when Monday, like when Monday came around to go back

to rugby. And then, yeah, it's kind of just I almost, I started at a good time where women's sport, like women's rugby was really growing. And my skills from other sports transferred across nicely. And I kind of shot through the pathway and got my first cap three or four years after I started to play. It's amazing how, like, you can be a child the same as someone else and have a very different childhood. Do you know what I mean? I was not a sporty child at all.

I wouldn't have had the, what I think is really cool is that you had the confidence. Do you think that came from your dad, that confidence? Yeah, my dad, like, my mum believed in me also, but she's very musical. So I also did a lot of, like, musical stuff, dance, played a couple of instruments growing up. Like, I was really lucky that I had this, like, holistic approach where they were, like, can do sport with me, you do music with me kind of thing. But because of that, it did, I think, them believing in me, they basically always said, you can do whatever you want, like, whatever you want to do, you'll be good at. And I was also lucky that I had really supportive teachers that were like

that as well. And they would just be like, you're going to, like, they always said to me, you're going to be an elite athlete, you're going to play for Wales. We don't know what sport is going to be in, but you're going to play for Wales. So that, like, that's always been my sort of, the external voices, which helped my internal voice, I think, when I was younger growing up. Because I struggled with bullying and stuff growing up, but I didn't really let it, like, affect me too much because I had like all these grownups around me that were like, don't worry, you're going to be great, it's fine, you know? Yeah.

That's really nice. You had those grownups. Yeah, it's really nice because kids can be mean. Yeah. But the grownups were good, so that was nice. How was the bullying manifested? I think I just I never fitted in anywhere like in school and stuff I was always a bit just a bit weird I guess that but now weird's good you know because I always say like everything that I got picked on for is now the reason that I'm successful in what I do because I did music and I did drama and I did all these sports and I had this like belief in myself from a young age other kids saw that as a bit weird and and it stood out and it didn't just fit in. with the way they want to do things like when other girls were like going out and stuff in

the week or on the weekends I was like no I'm doing my sports clubs or at lunchtime I would rather go to a sports club than be social with social in itself but with the other kids at school and so that just got like I basically got picked on because of that but it was it was like not necessarily like one or two groups of people it was like everyone but it's weird because obviously it affects me slightly at the time, but at the same time, I kind of just let it go over my head a little bit where I was like, whatever, like, yeah, is what it is kind of thing. But I think it's affected me more so later on in life now when I realize, like, if I feel like I've hurt someone's feelings or like I'm speaking to a friend and they're a bit distant with me, I'm like, oh, what have I done?

Is everything okay? Because I think that comes from that wanting to belong and wanting to be liked by people, if that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. You're very like like percept, like in tune with people's emotions. Yeah, I guess that experience would sort of lead you that way. Yeah, it's something that I've had to work on a lot to be like, no, if someone doesn't reply to your message in an hour, it's okay. They're probably just busy, you know, not like, oh, they're ignoring me or, and I'm a lot better at that now, but I think that affected me sort of in my late teens

going into university and things like that. Because going into uni where it's somewhere like there's all sorts of people in university and I went to a uni that was heavily sport-based. So I fitted in a lot more there, but I always was like cautious. So I was like, are you my friend or are you just pretending to be my friend? Or like, it's a weird place to navigate. But sport has been like massively important for me in that finding a community because we all have a common goal and we all love playing sport.

And that way you kind of bond over it and you know that you've got that similar interest. Yeah. I think like, you know, rugby, I mean, even football when we were younger wasn't normal for girls to play. No. it's amazing that it didn't stop you that you didn't like you know if you've got like you say it's not one or two groups like it was the whole school yeah so it is amazing that within that you were still like no but it's what I want to do yeah there was it's funny because obviously we had a bit of girls football available at school but not loads there wasn't many girls so we might we had one or two matches a year um and because there wasn't really that interest from other girls I was like all right I'm going to go to the boys football training so that's what I did for two years from year 70 or nine I took my It was kind of like unstructured boys' training. They would all just meet on the AstroTurf after school and just play tennis side or whatever. And I went every single Friday for like, yeah, two years.

And they didn't pass me the ball. I just kept going. And when I look back in hindsight, I'm like, no wonder they will wind up like in school. But I just had this like, I was like, no, I'm going. Why would I not go? And I think I had this separation between like, oh, I'm a girl so I can't do this. And they're boys so they can't. I was like, well, it's sport, so I'm going to play sport, you know.

And I grew up around football, so I was like, well, why can't I play football? It doesn't make sense. But that's where I think playing in goals got pushed on me more because they were like, well, you can go in goals then. If you're the girl, you can go in goals. And they used to just, I actually think it made me better because they just were pelting footballs at me. Broke my wrist once, though, because they just shot it at me and I saved it like that. Did you save it, though? I did save it.

with it. But yeah, like I had this like separation. I was like, well, I'm going to go. This is giving big, bend it like Beckham image. It is. Always talking to Kira Knightley's characters. That's savage. They didn't pass it to even like to you. Honestly, I'm like one or two boys that felt a bit sorry for me and every now again they'll just, oh go on, I have a pass, like pass a fuck or four. Oh my God. But like it's one of those things where in hindsight you think how on earth did I have the like commitment and patient to keep going but I just did

I don't know like if I had to do that now I'd be like oh do you know what did any of the teachers well like the coaches or did they notice that you weren't being past the ball or did they intervene at all not really it was kind of like unstructured there wasn't really there was like maybe a teacher they're supervising

but they weren't really involved in the games so but they knew like the P staff knew me very well and they kind of just they were always like there for me which was good um and they really encouraged my like love for different types of sport and stuff so i'm really grateful for that i know yeah i know i go back and see them every now and then i'm like that boys feel like such lemons now i know well it's how embarrassing it's funny because i've just moved back to um swansy where i'm from and it's just it's always

funny when you see people from school isn't it you like oh you remember you remember you that was funny you can see pick on me yeah um but yeah how does body image play into that whole journey as well because you've spoken about body image and body confidence and how like rugby really changed everything for you and it was when you started to see you know your body for what it does rather than how it looks yeah um it's been massive and it's not really until you come out the other side that you realize how like personally how poor my body image was or the reason that I was viewing myself in the way I was because now I'm on the other side I can be like I can see how that makes sense but yeah and now I like to be able to share that to show how you can get out

the other side kind of thing um but the bullion played a big role in it because I was kind of like just like a chubby kid like not I mean I wasn't really because I was very sporty the whole time but um I just got picked on a little bit because of that um and then for your size yeah um I think my cousin was one of them actually but he wasn't one of the bullies but he used to pick on me and say it call me fat and things like that um but like that was probably in like a more like siblingy type joking way but obviously it had an impact and um and i just remember like one one night i came home from school and i was just lying in bed and i was like lying on my side and i didn't like the way that like my body felt and that was probably the first time i can remember thinking oh i don't

don't like the way I look or I don't like the way I feel. And the next day, as competitive as always, it was like part of our GCSEs to do a fitness training plan. And I was like, well, I'm going to be the best of this. And I'm going to lose weight and I'm going to be the fittest one. So across 12 weeks, I lost like three stone. Very unhealthily, may I add. Like, but I was, it was like a switch had flicked.

And it was like, right, you've got a goal. You need to hit it. I was overtraining, wasn't eating enough. So the point where my mum was concerned, so she was speaking to the PE teachers, can you make sure she's eating her lunch and stuff? Like, I was meticulous with like counting out what I was going to eat and that kind of thing.

And then got to the end of that 12 weeks and people were starting to make comments then on how thin I looked. And so I was like, right, okay, so you thought I was fat and then I lost weight and now you're picking on me for being thin. Right, great. And it started planting a seed. where I was like, right, okay, well, let's be real.

I think it's just me. I think it's me. It's nothing to do with what it looked like. But it made me think, like, there's always going to be a reason that people are going to pick on you. But unfortunately, it was like the seeds were so too deep in terms of the body confidence thing,

where then what other people thought of me was, like, up there and one of my top priorities of things I thought about, which in hindsight is really sad. And I feel sorry for, like, 15. 16 year old me that that was like consumed so much of my thoughts because you have so much going on at that age it's hard enough to navigate already and then social media came along as well so it was around that time where he started using Instagram things which just exacerbated the problem because the problem is already there and then I could see these people telling me that I needed a

five minute ab workout every night to get abs like I ain't going to have abs that's just my body shape like it's what it is I can have big shoulders though so that's good but yeah, it just sort of then kind of created a little bit of a spiral where I didn't see food as something that I needed to consume to have energy. It was something that I needed to be cautious of and like, okay, I know I need to eat to keep mum and dad happy or to, you know, I need a bit of energy, but it's not something that I should like see as something that's going to give me energy and allow me to train. And it was, it's weird because at the same time I was training really hard at a couple of different sports and yeah i was just like in this pitch really

where i just didn't like the way i looked even though in theory the version of me a year before that should have loved the way i looked because i was lighter and thinner that's such a unanimous like story isn't it that's such a familiar feeling and it's so it makes me sad to hear that you think how many girls will have missed out on the opportunity to continue a sport that they loved or even start a sport that they loved because of that. You know, it's amazing that you had the energy to keep training that you came through the other side of that. But for so many women, that would, so many girls, that's the end of the road, I suppose.

I think I was, I was really lucky that I started rugby when I did because it was, I was really, really thin, really had low energy. And now knowing what I know scientifically, I was probably like that on the end of the spectrum was called like Reds Relative Energy Deficiency. And it was like a dangerous place to be. But then rugby kind of gave me something to really look forward to. And then also the access to things like strength and conditioning coaches and nutritionists that slowly start to drip feed the importance of training being to make you better at your

sport. And in order to train properly, you have to be fueled properly. If I hadn't had that access, because I started. moving up the ranks within rugby and then obviously the higher up you go and more lead you become the more external people nutrition assessancies get involved that that education really helped to slow it's taken a long time like 10 years but to slowly start to drip feed in information and and then it's like when you see okay I'm going to eat a bit more and then all of a sudden you see like well I actually don't look much different or my performance on the

pitch has improved since I started eating more and it takes the metrics away from and body weight or what do you see when you look in the mirror and more towards oh am I getting better at a sport oh I'm lifting more

and when you have friendships within a sport like rugby the conversation is not oh you look good today it's you you trained really well today or like when we're in the gym it's like unbelievable you hit a PB

like one of the girls last week squatted 200 kilos yeah and it's like we're all just like it's amazing And it's not like, oh, I wish I could swap 200. It's like, that is amazing. You're really cool.

And like, rather than being like, oh, did you, did you lose two? And don't get me wrong, the body weight issue and stigma is still a thing within elite athletes. And it's, I mean, sometimes they give us target body weight, whether that be more than your way or less than your weight. And I think that like stigma and the way we've been raised in our generation. around gaining weight is bad or that like to lose weight you have to be on this restrip diet trying to like fix those mindsets within elite sport is actually really difficult and it's something that I see in my teammates all the time. I think I'm surprised I think I'm surprised to

hear that but I guess I guess it makes sense to be given you know to optimize performance obviously like the body you know there's so much body weight I guess has a huge part to play in that but it feels like rugby more so than any other sport is where the there are there just seems to be on the pitch like such a huge diversity yeah in body sizes it's just like a huge range of of body sizes and like do you feel like that's encouraged as a young girl playing a sport where you can see that everyone looks different and everyone has different strengths and weaknesses physically, I think that's really empowering to be like, it doesn't, like, whatever body shape I am, whatever body type I am, no matter how much I weigh, there's a place

for me on the team, like, that you can always find a position. Yeah, that you can always find a position. And I think that's really beneficial, like, for young girls to see, but also being in a team like that, because I get to see all these different amazing women every day that all look completely different. They eat different amounts. They train different. Like, We're all so different, but yeah, we all have this common goal and we're all really strong women that are trying to work towards that. And it's interesting because most other sports, team sports, players tend to generally look similar. Like football, for example, this has been really generalized now,

but like most female footballers will look similar because the demands of the game across the pitch are relatively similar. They all have to run 10K a game, sprint X amount. In rugby, the demands between a winger versus a prop are very different and therefore their body shapes need to be different, which is an interesting dynamic to have. I think also to your point earlier about the trauma that we carry, the women carry, as a matter of fact situation,

it's like, yes, you need to weigh this much and you need to wear this much. And I imagine for the men it's like, well, that's fine. Like, fine, I'll go and eat loads. Oh, guess I won't eat loads this week. They can do it. And that's generalised as well because obviously men do struggle with their body image but because of how much of a burden

our weight has always been throughout our lives and the trauma that we inadvertently pick up that it must be a very difficult thing to prize a part because logically it is as you say like that's exactly right like athletes you're athletes and you need to look different and perform best but it's hard not to have emotions attached to that

yeah and I think it fluctuates like it my view although now so much more positive than it used to be like weight doesn't really matter to me anymore but there are some days where I might think not necessarily weight but I might not like the way I look it's usually correlated with my menstrual cycle because just before my period I'm like oh you know but um it's it's tough because they they may say to you you need to gain five kilos and that's really daunting because you're like okay well how how am I going to do that like obviously to support your performance as well, you don't want to gain five kilos of fat

because that would be negative to your performance. So you need to gain five kilos of mostly muscle with a little bit of fat, then getting your head around, okay, how's that going to look on me? Like, will I like the way I look? Will I not? It's, there's a lot of things to think about.

But I always come back to the fact that when, when I previously mentioned, like I was at that lowest point in terms of my confidence, my body image, I was about 55 kilos. And now I'm 84, 85 kilos. And if I was to tell like that version of me at 55 kilos, like you're gonna be 30 kilos heavier

and you're gonna be playing for wheels, you're gonna have 34 caps and you're potentially gonna be gonna be going to your second wheel cup. You don't believe it? No, but do you know what the funny thing is? Is that that version of me would have been like, wait, I'm gonna be 30 kilos heavier. Like that would be the thing that I focus on.

Yeah. And now I think, although it's still at some point difficult for me to, if, like, recently I had to put on five, five or so kilos because I lost a lot of muscle mass over my injuries and stuff. That was still daunting for me, but I took the time to process it and be like, it's fine. You've done this before. Like, I've weighed more than I do now. It's fine. And then now I'm, because I've got the perspective to be like, it's okay to gain weight. It's going to help your performance. It did last time. You know, this is the right thing to do. But there's still something in there that's, of course, that says,

are you sure you know there's going to be isn't that yeah it's such a huge focus for you for so so long I see it and I see it across a lot of the team and I still do like I think it is it is a problem within elite women's sport

that probably isn't talked about enough because you just assume oh they've got to this place so yeah and well they're there now and they're competing at the top level but there is still a lot of like behind the scenes stuff I think that comes from that growing up with social media seeing like if you think back to before social media you could only see the immediate

people around you now we can see millions of people daily you could just scroll and scroll and see all these people you don't even know what's real or not anymore and it's really difficult to not compare yourself to that so something that's been massive for me is like just just look at yourself just look at yourself because everyone's got their own things going on so if I want to be someone else, I have to take up all of their baggage as well. Actually, I'll keep my baggage. It's fine. It's not that bad.

It'll be okay. So it's looking at it like a bit differently. Is it talked about quite openly, you know, within the team like from teammate to teammate, like body confidence and how you're feeling and, you know, say you're told to put on five kilos. Is that something that you'll go to your teammates about? Yeah. It is something that we speak about.

I think sometimes positively, sometimes negatively, because it's like that group think thing where it's like, well, if one of us is feeling positive about our body image and we share that side of stuff, you're being like a radiator and you're like, this is great, you know, everything's good, you can gain weight and putting on muscle like, but there's also, we do get body composition testing as well. So like my last one was good. I'd put on a kilo of muscle, lost kilo of fat, like that's ideal. But then someone else might come out of that body comp and have expected one result and actually they've been told they've lost muscle and gained fat and I think that having like metrics where you have to physically see it like if I don't weigh myself I don't know how

much away I don't care or and but if you if you're constantly being measured on it it's not it's not something they massively pay you know they're not like well you can't play if you put on fat you don't they don't say that but it is something that goes on in the background alongside fitness testing and stuff like that and sometimes the narrative can be negative because we are like as teammates we're some of each other's closest friends so it's not just like a work colleague thing it's like they're the people that we do speak to when we're like when we're stressed about certain things but it's so tricky to navigate because one day like I said like one day you could feel great about it and the next day not so much

and everyone is fluctuating with that at different times yeah depending on what they've you know what's happening this week or that week or yeah where they are in their menstrual cycle. Yeah. Yeah, I know. How do you find the general conversation around women's rugby? Like, is how you look, whatever, a consideration within, like, the sort of public rhetoric, or is that not at all a consideration?

I think it's gotten a lot better, but there are, there's a long way to go still. And I think because my immediate bubble is so women's rugby focus, like sometimes I forget that there's a world outside of it because when you're in camp, like everyone, everyone is thinking about rugby, like my boyfriend plays rugby, my dad supports my rugby, my mum supports, like everything is about rugby and it's not until you have a week off, for example, and come to London to film a podcast, that you forget that, like, oh, oh yeah, there's other stuff that's going on. And because I don't really pay attention to people who aren't interested in rugby's view on women's rugby.

I don't see it too much. But when you do start to read the comments, there are, there's still a long way to go. A good one is, you don't look like a rugby player. And you're like, well, what the hell does that mean? Yeah. And one of the England girls, Sardia Cabaya, she put on a story the other day,

someone said to her, well, you're too pretty to be a rugby player. And that's like, those are the things where it's like, well, what's that even meant to mean? Yeah. Like, what's my face got to do with it? Yeah. You know, and I have had some, I don't think it comes from a malicious place,

but it'd be like, oh, you don't want to ruin your face and things like that. And I'm like, it'll be fine, do I mean? Like, I've done it for 10 years now. So no one says that to the men. No, exactly, right. Johnny Wilkinson will never have heard that. Exactly right. So it's.

If anything for them, it's like a badge of honour to have like a visible. Yeah. And then you have your classic things like, oh, do you play, is it contact rugby? Do you play with a size five ball? you pushing the scrums like there's all of those and my least favorite one oh do you all shower together they love they love asking that question um and then the perception around like when i was in uni there was a lot of the boys that were like oh our fifth team could beat wales women rugby all of this stuff and it's just like i think the good thing oh come on let them try oh please i know i train

with no but it's just that like naivety and ignorance i guess where they just, they aren't interested. But I'm just like, can you just keep your opinions to yourself? You're kind to use the word naive because literally nothing annoysly more. Like sometimes when I watch tennis with my brother, and he's just such an ass, he'll be like, oh, I could be her. And I'm like, you would literally disagree with both your shoulders. I know.

You die, there's not a chance in hell. It's annoying because it's a very physical sport and you can't physically compare men and women because they're so different. Yeah. And that's why women's rugby and men's rugby aren't mixed rugby. it's not safe and it's not doable. So of course a male prop might be stronger, faster, fitter than a female prop, but that's because men generically are fitter than women because of genetics, you know? So it's not something that could be compared. So that's what annoys me.

And I try and I get, I bite really easily. And I just get really like, actually the statistics are in this paper, a woman will only ever be 30 to 70 percent as strong as men in the upper body. that comes from my degree but um and they're like oh what's a bite and I'm like no but it seriously stop comparing it it does matter yeah but also bite all you want oh I will

yeah that looks like permission yeah that would frustrate me no end it is and it's luckily it's not something that I have to deal with often like I said because I'm just in my little rugby bubble most of the time but I am aware like as women's rugby is growing

and there's more and more media like I like sharing my like my lifestyle things like day in life and stuff on social media and most of it is positive but I am aware that as women's rugby starts to grow more they will as the reach gets bigger there's obviously going to be more people who seem to think that it's not something they like there's the odd thing like someone comments who cares no one cares women play rugby that kind of thing because you've commented I know I know exactly I'm so embarrassed for people who call out and it's always someone that doesn't have a profile picture

and he's got some silly username. Although my dad on Instagram doesn't have a profile picture and it keeps making him look like he's a troll. He comments on everything. My dad just put a profile picture on there, please. I'm so sweet. Women's rugby is growing. And it feels big.

This year, it feels big. And it feels like the women's rugby World Cup is going to be very big. And it's going to mark a huge moment for women's sports. How do you feel about that? I think sometimes it's easy to forget that that's what's going on because we're in it. But it's when you look at the media and the narrative around it, it's crazy to see because of how big, like, selling over double the amount of tickets

that were sold at the whole of the last World Cup already. And we haven't even started. Like it's not, some of our pool games are nearly sold out already. And I think for the last few years, it's been like top teams like England and New Zealand. And those are the teeth, you're like, oh, yeah, they might get a sell out if they make the final, that kind of thing. Like the last World Cup was played at Eden Park. And that was massive. And there was like 45,000 people there.

But now it's like, no, every game is going to be sold out. And people are, we're getting people in seats coming to to watch. When you're so focused on the training and getting 1% better every day, sometimes it's hard to zoom out and be like, but this is what we're doing it for. And personally, for me, we talk. a lot within our team about what is your why and like a lot of people's why is they love playing rugby and they want to be the best they can be and that was my why for a long time but it's kind of shifted and that still is plays a little bit of a role but now it's more about inspiring the next generation because I didn't have someone like me to look up at when I was young

you know if I was 10 or 12 years old and I had someone who was talking about their experiences with body image and playing a sport that was so empowering for women and then sharing their experiences about it. I think that would really help me and it's getting some good out of social media. So for me, my why now is about showing young girls what you can't achieve. And that might not be rugby for them. That might be a different sport for them. That might be music for them.

It might be whatever. But I'm just trying to show them that they can do whatever they want and to not listen to anyone who says otherwise. What do you feel is the biggest, barrier right now for women's rugby women's sport if you could cite one thing that you're like that we need that gone and everything will be okay or everything will get better what would you say that was confidence in all aspects I think body body confidence being one but I think girls are often like I can't do that like I hear that a lot when I speak to young girls after games

or if I go into schools to do talks that kind of thing it's like oh but I can't can't I won't be able to do that and it's like this almost like a built in protective mechanism to you know it's a fear of failure I guess but kids don't really know what that is for it's like built into them where they're like if I give that I go and I'm bad at it then that's embarrassing so I can't do it and I think body confidence and participation in sport is huge because even when I remember back to you know year 7 year 8 PE the the conversation in the changing rooms with the girls was always around body image. We just didn't know it was called body image then, but it would be like, oh, I don't like the way these shorts fit on me or we'd get ready for swimming and

the girls would be like, oh, I look fat in this bay that I'm like, we're 12 years old and those are the things that were saying. But at the time, it just, you don't really know how that's going to manifest in your older life. So I think that's what it is. And I just think that kind of wanting to fit in. And so if 90% of people aren't doing something, people will just join that to make 100% rather than being the 10% that go and do something different even though those 10% are potentially more powerful because they'll drag people with them

to show that they can give something to go. Yeah. I mean, can I drop in with a stat here? Because on this note of girls kind of shying away from sport, so over 1 million girls drop out of sport after primary school and 57% of them say that low body confidence is the reason. I guess I'd like to know what you think needs to change in the culture of sport to keep girls engaged. And also, sorry, this is a double question, but what would you say to girls who are, you know, who love playing sport?

I really enjoy playing sport. But suddenly there's barriers of, I can't I remember them so well. We had to wear gym knickers. Yeah. We had to wear gym knickers. And I just remember being like, I can't go out there in gym knickers. And I would just, I would like hide in the bathroom. loads of us would

anyway, what would you say to girls who are enjoying sport but considering dropping out because of body confidence? I think in terms of the like culture side of things I think we just need to make girls feel as comfortable as possible like school like in PE

you're saying you have to wear this just wear what you want to wear because if you wearing leggings instead of shorts is going to be the reason that you do sport we can cross that barrier in time. Like, I'd like you to be able to wear shorts. However, you've got to be able to keep doing the sports first. Yeah. And I think that is a massive thing. It's like, well,

why are we not? If the problem is people dropping out, why are we putting limitations on their participation? And something I found really frustrating when I was in school was, okay, the girls are going to go and play rounders while the boys play football. No. Like, yes, always. What it's, sorry, but rounders is so boring. Like if you're a sporty girl. I love rounders. I hate, I hate, As somebody was not a sporty girl, it was where I thrived. As a sporty girl, I used to be like, really? Because all the girls would be like, will you run for me? I don't want to run.

So I'm just doing laps around the thing. Yeah, we don't go on great. I'm like, I used to, whenever they said all the girls were doing this, just like, I think that adds to the problem of the separation thing. Like, I couldn't, I didn't think that girls could play sports. The only reason I did was because my parents outside of sport allowed me to play. all these different sports. So that's something that I think could change.

Another thing is like the availability of clubs for girls. Like a lot of the young girls that I speak to, they're like, I play with the boys at the minute, but when I'm 11, I can't play with them anymore, but there's no girls' clubs until I'm 14. And that's a huge problem in football, probably lesser now because women's football is getting more, more popular. But in rugby, it's a massive problem,

because then there's nowhere for them to go. Funnily enough, I actually played rugby. for a very short period of time. You said you were to. Oh, I'm rubbish at it. I played for a really short period of time. And then there was no club for me. Yeah.

Because I played when my brother played my brother. So you might have been, you might have been playing for England now. No risk of that. But my brother would play every Sunday. And I tried. I went for a little bit. Tried to go. And then they said, I don't know if it's because of getting boobs or whatever.

But at 11, it was like, oh, you can't play anymore. And I was like, okay, that's okay. And when there's no one to, and there's a lot of girls who that happened to, and luckily they kept playing or they came back to it when they went to uni when there was a club

but it makes me wonder how many people could be playing at a high level but didn't that's my new narrative guys and also that's like

I could have played for England but this could have been but also that's a formative time to like so three years to miss out yeah like I said like for me being in that rugby environment was the thing that transformed

my body image so if for some reason someone just pulled the rug away and was like, no, you can't go now for two years. Well, those, and then I was like, okay, well, I'm going to stop comparing myself to really strong women that can lift loads in the gym now. And I'm going to compare myself to everyone else.

Then that probably would have had a really negative effect. At those ages of like between 12 and it's getting younger, to be honest. Like, at my age, it was probably more around 13, 14, but I speak to some young girls now that are like 9 or 10 and they struggling with their body image already. So, yeah. I think that's a massive problem is like bridging that gap. Like, don't, if you want them to keep participating,

don't pull away their method of participating, you know? Can I just complain very quickly? Because I feel very hard done by because I was never giving the opportunity to play either football or rugby. I never played it, never kicked a ball, never threw a ball, ever. We had hockey, we had rounders hockey in the cross. Same thing at school. And it's hard because then when you see these trolls on Instagram or whatever

and they're like, oh, these women aren't as good as the men, I'm like, man, half of us didn't start playing until we were 21. Like, stop. Do you know what I mean? You're also having to work full-time jobs. Yeah. I think that's the other thing that's really frustrating is it's like the playing field isn't, you know, you're citing before about the statistics.

It's actually like this. This is the playing field somewhere near even. 100%. Like, not only do you, your physicality is completely different. So like you, you aren't on the same, that it's completely different from that alone. But the barriers that women are face are completely incomprehensible for men. Yeah. Like, they don't have the wide acceptance.

They didn't have the access to it at an early age. They don't have the support through it as adulthoods. They don't get the scholarships to the schools. They don't get whatever that is. And then when you're grown up, I don't think people realise this. Most of your teams, the premiership teams, you've all got normal jobs alongside it.

Yeah. And I only, like, Wales women as a nation, only went full time three years ago, I think it was. And even when we initially went full time, there were still people that had contracts that they were finishing. or like I still do online coaching as like a secondary income because for me it's not enough to sustain it's it's a full-time wage but I want to be able to sustain a potential future family and buy a house and all this kind of thing so it's not just as easy as you're a full-time

athlete now enjoy like it's not because there's other things you want to think about it's a career that isn't infinite so you know I've had four surgeries now I'm only 25 and I'm like, well, how long is my rugby career going to be? Probably not a massive amount longer. So what's my next move after that one? You know, there's all these things because because we don't make the same money as the men make, we don't have these like investment opportunities and business. We can't start businesses and stuff while we're playing because we ain't got the money for it.

So that's always, I think if you were to ask like 90% of women's rugby players would have that same thought process. And then, like, yeah, in the premiere, the PWR, pretty much everyone still has a job that isn't an international player. Which is ridiculous. Yeah. And one of the girls that plays with Wales, she's a tight head prop. She's a firefighter. And so right now she's managing both somehow.

I don't know how she's surviving. But she'll work a night shift on a Wednesday night and then come into training without sleeping and train for eight hours, three sessions. and then, yeah, and then do it on the train again on Friday. And I'm like, you're actually superwoman. I have a new rule for anybody who comments underneath videos of women's rugby players. And that's what they have to do a week doing what you do. Yeah.

Like full time, everything. I think like, people aren't aware of what we do. Like, they're like, oh, you just play a bit of rugby and that's it. Like, there's so much to the training. And that's why I like sharing my day in the life stuff. Because I'm like, no, this is like, this is our day. And it's really busy and it's really full on. and we work really hard

because I don't think people quite understand that we just think you run around a bit there's a lot more we even do judo and things like that now flip each other on the mat yeah it's physically sick yeah it's really hard

it's insane but also we have how much fun did we have coming to watch the game I want people to know that as well what an incredible day it was for us to take our kids to like it was the nicest atmosphere

going to we watch the Premiership It was the nicest atmosphere. We had the best day. Like it's so exciting for that. The kids loved it. We also took them to took it to watch the men's and they love that a little bit less. But I think that's a really nice thing to highlight. I've got two little girls. It's like it's really a lovely atmosphere and I feel really excited showing them that. Yeah. I think that's probably one of the biggest things and biggest differences with women's rugby. Men's rugby is good. It's great. And I want that to be fully supported as a well but women's rugby has a different audience and like a different vibe around it and I think for so long because of the traditions behind men's rugby they haven't felt like they can be themselves fully within the team whereas there's so many of us now that are on social media being being completely

ourselves like unapologetically just showing people you can have this full personality and be a rugby player and they're not like mutual exclusive that you can do whatever you want and for young people looking up to that, boys and girls, it's like, and families and even grownups come and see that is like quite empowering itself because it's like, well, these are just like people and the connection they have with the fans or we have with the fans is so different to men's rugby. And because it's still a growing sport, we have that time to be able to give back to the fans. Like after every game, I like to try and see as many people as I can. This part of my brain where I'm like, are you sure you wanted to speak?

to me. Like, I don't know why you want to speak to me, but, um, or like, they're like, can I have your autograph? Really sign my phone case. Can you do this? And I'm like, yeah, but I don't know why, but yeah. Um, but I think like having that connection, you can literally change someone's life, but having that conversation, whereas within men's rugby, there's so many more fans at the minute. Um, and it's just a given that there's fans, fans come and watch rugby the end. Like, that's what they think. But I'm still so grateful that all these people have come to watch us that I'm like I know myself and all of my teammates want to give back to them want to inspire them because we were them not long ago and we didn't have like

I didn't even know women played rugby really until I was 13 14 and and now hopefully we can show that we're on TV we've you know we're in the public eye and you can see it you've got to see it to be it yes and it's a viable career path yeah yeah yeah because it wasn't for a long time well until I was 22. But also I think people need to appreciate if you watch this sport, if you buy tickets, if you invest in it,

we will create a world where you get paid more. It's that simple. Like people listening, we can be a really active part in changing what the future is here. Yeah. Because you can't make the money

if this, but like, you know, cynically or whatever, you need eyeballs on to get sponsorship. Yeah. I know, if we're only charging $5 a ticket, then it's not going to make, we're not going to make enough money

to be able to, or if it's, only being played on a stream online like it has to be shown in the like in the public eye we have to get people in the stadium paying good amounts of money to be able to then create like a positive cycle where we can then pay more which means the quality gets better which means more people come to watch and at the minute like it's got it's got getting a lot better but for a while it was just like stuck in this oh well we'll sell really cheap tickets to get people in but then we don't make enough money so you can't get paid and then it's just like a vicious yeah vicious cycle and we have

to get men involved too. Yeah. And on our sons. Like, I've got a son and it feels just as important for him to go and see these matches and be excited and involved. Yeah. It can't just be the women taking the charge here. Yeah.

And I think if you're a rugby fan, you should be a rugby fan. It doesn't matter what rugby it is. It's 15, 7s, women's, like under 20s. It doesn't matter. Be a rugby fan because actually your calendar, if you like watching rugby, if you support women's rugby, your calendar is a lot more full. and you can watch more rugby, so why would you don't want to do that? My husband was with a family friend who's a bit older

and he was saying, oh, why are you going to so many women's matches? And he was like, my husband said, because I love sport. Yeah. He loves sport. He loves live sport. Yeah. It is just as, it is equally exciting to him to watch women play, men play. Like, it's just the idea, you know, it's sport. It's just sport.

If you like sport, you like sport, it doesn't matter who's playing. Agreed. Yeah. Oh, this is exciting. It's very exciting. We talked to a bit, and we will let you go, but before we do, I think we, we, We know what we need to do in terms of getting young girls exercising, but there will be people listening to this in their 20s and maybe 30s,

who perhaps a career as a professional athlete might not be on the table anymore, but who want to find a community, to want to try a sport like this, whether it be rugby or football or whatever. What would you say to anyone who's in that position who's listening? I think as hard as it is to do, the first step is always the hardest. Like, go and do it. I mean, it's a fairly obvious answer.

isn't it? But it's like the, no, but you actually have to just go and do it because the friction that you'll have between doing that first step and the rest will be significantly less. Like, as soon as you go, you either like it or you don't. If you don't like it, you try something else. But because you've tried that one thing, it makes it easier to try something else. You know, and that can be, it's necessarily even have to be a sport. It could be like a gym. Gym communities these days are amazing. My boyfriend goes to a gym back at home and the community there is just unbelievable. Like, they go from being strangers to being these people that see each other every day

and couldn't imagine each other's lives without each other. And I think that's so special. And also then it positively impacts that self-body image because you're in the gym, you're lifting together, you're pushing each other for the reason of, oh, you're getting stronger, you're getting fitter. This is really good. Like, it's shifting the markers, like we said earlier, from the way you look and from body weight to getting better.

and like mentally and physically. So just do it, as Nike would say. Can we go back to the question, and we totally digress, sorry, but can we go back to the question of what you would say to a young girl who is considering quitting sport because of how she looks

or because she doesn't feel very confident even though she likes, you know, she loves playing sport? I think I would, it would be hard to just like say one thing because I think those are the types of being girls that I would want to share my story with and sort of go down the roots of you have to do what makes you happiest and the opinions of other people because I would I would put a bet on

the fact that the reason that she wanted to drop out was probably because of external factors. If she loves sport, she's not going to want to drop out because she doesn't love sport. She wants to drop out because she thinks other people is, thinks it's not cool or whatever. it would be you have to prioritize you and what you like doing because ultimately the people who are having these views and you probably won't matter in a year or two's time, especially if they're in school. And looking back, I'm so glad that I was so headstrong about it

and I had tunnel vision on what I wanted to achieve. But that along with finding a community of like-minded people, which is tough to do when you're young because your parents take you places. So if your parents take you there, But having that conversation with your parent where it's like, I really enjoy doing this. Can I find somewhere where I can be surrounded by people that support me or surrounded by people that do the same thing as me?

And yeah, it's really hard. It's really hard. But I would, that's the type of person that I would want to speak to for probably about an hour. Like, look. Come with me. Yeah. You do a good job. Thank you.

But those people, we can send them to your Instagram. Yeah. Yes, please. So we'll leave the links in the show notes to your socials We'll also leave the link I think to the tickets Yeah

For the World Cup Which manifesting We'll see you at Yeah If they have you out doing interviews And they don't I know Yeah nice one

Be very mean Nice one We will write it But when this comes out We'll be on Australia Okay Yeah So I don't know

I have to find out Where you can stream that from And maybe you can put that in the link as well We'll do, we'll put everything we can into the show notes. This has been amazing. Good luck. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you.

Cheers. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.