Should I Delete That? - Sarah Jayne Dunn: OnlyFans and taking back autonomy

Episode Date: March 27, 2022

This week Alex and Em talk to Sarah Jayne Dunn about double standards and hypocrisy in the media. They delve into her exit from Hollyoaks and how she has found empowerment through OnlyFans.Show timestamps:Good, Bad & Awkward - 00:02:14Interview with Sarah - 00:22:23Is It Just Me? - 01:28:55Follow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Butternut Box - visit www.butternutbox.com/alexandem for 50% off your first two boxesProduced & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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com forward slash alex and m oh my god why did i post that ah i don't know what to do should i delete that yeah you should definitely delete that hi hi how are you i'm fine i'm just gonna have this yaw if you could just leave me to have it for no one so let's go on get it out get it out oh okay fine goodness that was delicious that was delicious Sorry, I'm very tired How are you? I'm good, I'm good I actually feel more

Yeah, alive today Like after our night out from Saturday Oh yeah I feel like, yeah I feel like I had a two-day hangover Three-day hangover Not proper hangover But just like the remnants of one

And I actually feel like today I've shrugged it off and I'm back It only took a week Yeah, the fog has lifted Yeah, we went out on Saturday night Good list we went out clubbing didn't we yeah like actual clubbing yeah well let's just get let's just get into our weeks because I've just got so much time pick with you actually

out like and clubbing comes into it we've just so much to discuss so do you want to kick us off with your good or your bad or you're awkward the good yeah okay I'll kick off with my good which was last night so Mac took us to see the Moulin Rouge musical and it was unreal like it was one of the best shows I've ever seen and I've been like humming the songs all day like making a new Spotify playlist and it was just so good and it reminded me I haven't done anything like that in ages and reminded me of how fun like the theatre is and musicals and it was just brilliant yeah it was brilliant I just loved it so yeah that was my good that's nice my goodness is at the sunshining I feel like I'm so boring I'll get into my

stride when I tell you about the bads and the awkwards because they're so plentiful And I couldn't think of one specific good thing apart from, other than the fact that I'm in shorts today and I wore a dress yesterday, my scabby little knees out. And the sun's shining. You do thrive when the sun shines out, to be fair. I'm like a sunflower or a daffodil or blossom. I'm just like a flower.

Honestly, I'm such a whore for it. Second the sun's out, I'm like, I yeah, this is what I've born for. This is me, I'm in shorts now and this is me until November. We went down to Brighton on Monday to interview Nelly, London for the podcast. and you I went so this was on Monday we went out on Saturday and I was so done in like I couldn't even like I still had a headache and you were on top of the world like so perking so cheery so much energy I was like oh well I wasn't on Sunday I'm gonna be okay I've had I've had to really seriously rejig my bads and my awkwards because because what was my awkward I've decided with hindsight is definitely my bad and I've had something so much more awkward happen but I'll just go in with the bad so we went clubbing on Saturday which was that wasn't the bad thing that was super fun wasn't it we went for a girls dinner and then we went out after and we ordered Yeager bombs and we drank them multiple every time every time I didn't

want to drink one you guys all looked at me and went put your silly fingers on your heads and like stag stag stag stag stag stag because obviously Alex was on your stag to so we we basically got absolutely shit-faced and then we left and then we went home and I got home and I went to bed and then I woke up the next morning with a fucking terrible hangover and I was all right for about 20 minutes and I went to, oh well, it was like, I tell you what, Sunday was just a bad, it was just a really bad day. I went to the co-op, I didn't put a bra on,

I was wearing my shorts because the sun was shining, you know how it goes, and I went to the co-op and I literally, like, I haven't brushed my hair on my teeth, like I was definitely probably still a little bit drunk and I went in and all of the fucking church across the way had just let out. So it's everybody in like their nude-coloured tights and their nice, like, respectable heels.

Sunday best. And literally they're looking at me like, God be with you. I was like, he's not. This isn't a good thing. He's nowhere to be seen. Exactly. And then I got home and then, well, then I got home and I was, I'm going to be, I was sick out.

I was, my tummy, I just can't handle it. And I was sick. And then I was sick out of my nose, which actually, my operation was pretty recently. things started popping and I just didn't have it in me to call the doctor and be like, I think I've popped more stitches. So that was all really bad, but it gets worse because the door bell rang and I'm like, who could that be? And I opened the door and I pop my head around and there's nobody there. And I was like, that's odd. And I was a bit out of it. And then I just

heard this little voice. He's like, excuse me, I was like the fuck. And I looked down and there's just like tiny person at the door. I was like, hello. And Buwer saw this tiny person at the same time me and Bua just went, like barking, and she sort of ran towards him, but the gate behind him was like our front gate was open, you know, like onto the street. So I went to prop the door because he went, excuse me, my bulls come into your garden, like our neighbour obviously, and I was like, okay, and then Boer started barking and all I saw was the threat, the road, so I was like, oh God, I need to close the door so that Buwer doesn't go out. So I was like, okay, to the child. And I started closing the door, not to like slam it in his space, but just to close it too so that

booed didn't run out while I went to go and get his ball. And I think if I was a normal person who didn't have a terrible hangover, I'd have said, one second, buddy, I'll just close the door and go and get it for you. But I didn't communicate that because I was dying. So instead, I just started closing the door. And then, to my astonishment, I felt a bit of resistance. And I was closing the door. And he was pushing on the other side. And he was going, no, no, my ball. And I was like, no, I know. But I was still pushing the door. So I was like having this like tug of war, tug of door with this child who can't have been older than three. I was like, oh my God, that was so bad. I was like, okay, bye. Obviously, I won because I have much more

strength than it. I was like, unlucky child. So he must have been like, what? Like, where's my ball? Anyway, I was like, I can't think about you right now. So I went to the garden, got his stupid ball, then they came back through. And I opened the door, Abuir, re-invigorated, seeing the threat again, barreled at him, and then he started running away and crying. And I was like, oh, God, this is so bad. And then I just looked up. And his mother was there, my neighbour, and she'd been there the whole time and witnessed. We literally, open the door, be like, there's no one here.

Then slam the door in her two-year-old's face and then watch my dog make him cry as he fled. Anyway, I said to the mum, I was like, I'm really sorry, neighbor. I'm really hung over. I can't help you. And she was like, oh, God, bless you. You should be very nice. Anyway, I then went back to the television, mortified, but honestly too tired to be massively mortified.

And then I went back into the kitchen a few hours later, and I just saw in the garden, and there were three more balls. And he obviously was just not going to come back for them. Just thought that they lived here now. He's like, don't go to the scary, nutty neighbour. He's going to stand the door in your face and said her a tack dog on you.

I love that you were like met with, resistance when you push the door and you're like oh oh what the fuck is happening what's going on he's like no wait my ball oh god so that's yeah that was going to be awkward but i've actually decided it's way worse than awkward it's terrible i'm going to live next to these people indefinitely really that is a bad that really is a bad my bad was my hangover but also my bad as much as i loved i did love the night out but it was a stark reminder that i am 33 years old and that is not the age that people go clubbing anymore. Everyone in there was about at least a decade younger. At least a decade. We were just in there, weren't we? Yeah.

I felt like we were taking the book club out into town, you know what I mean? I didn't even think we had the cool dancing. We were in blazer. I was wearing a blazer. But you were in training, I didn't, like, I thought when people go out, they wear heels, so I was wearing boot heels. I thought, I thought, I was like, oh my God, no, that that is, that we're over that. We're well for that. I realized when I got there and everyone was in trainers I was like oh so it was yeah it was

a stark and slightly mortifying reminder that and then I woke up the next day and I was I mean cognitive function massively impaired couldn't barely do anything it was just like scrolling Instagram and I was just looking at all my other friends

with their like two children like going to the zoo or like going to the farm to pair animals. When I was on the couch, like, I can't move, Dave. And I was like, this is not good. I was on the way on the way to our night out on Saturday night

and I was speaking to by two little sisters on the phone and they were like, oh my God, Al, imagine if you just got really drunk, we always do this like imagine game, they're like, imagine if you just got really drunk and then just woke up in another man's bed and you didn't know where you were and there was just like a thousand miss calls from Dave. So we were like, obviously I was like,

like, ha-ha, you know, like literally what would I do? That would be horrendous, blah, blah. Next morning, I texted them and said, guys, we shouldn't have tempted fate because I actually have just woken up in a random man's bed and I don't know what to do. No, that's not how, they didn't fall for it, did they? No, they did.

They said, oh my God, what, why? No offense to your sisters, but they're fools. What do you mean? Where are you? And then I was like, okay, you're idiots. You are actually idiots. Yeah, they are. I'd have played that so differently. If it were me, I'd have gone really elaborately right.

So I'd have dropped called my sister. I'd have seen straight through my lives so you've got to be careful so I'd have dropped call there four or five times so she'd think she'd have had loads because she wouldn't have got to it in time so she'd just see loads of missed calls and then I'd have gone Katie help me

Katty, I'm panicking Kat, I don't know where the fuck I am are you in London and I've done it like that smart man honestly I've got to I did not have the brain capacity for that

for like any kind of cleverness once I was just like I woke up in a random man's bed and they were like really And I was like, no. And it kind of ended there. Oh, my God, what a great joke. I know.

Like family banter, fucking living for it. I know. Oh, I'm crazy. Is that as done? No, my awkward. Oh, no, awkward. So my awkward would have been my assault on this small child. But then something worse happened.

And last night, I left you, didn't I? Because I was feeling really tired. But I distinctly remember saying to you in the theatre, I said, I've got a really bad wedgy. I said it once during dinner. to Rhee, who I was sitting next to, who was sitting in between me and now, I said, I need to unplug my wedgy.

And that was the first time in the evening. Then it happened again during the theatre. And I was like, fuck me, the phone is like right up my bum crack, you know? So I was like trying to, the seats aren't very big. So I was trying to unplug it. And I just couldn't shift it. And then when we left, it was busy. You know, you can't just start, like,

pulling a fucking piece of material like your ass cheeks and you're like walking along. So I was like, I'm just in this situation now. Anyway, then I was walking for like 20 minutes trying to get to taxi. And I was self-conscious because I decided not to wear tight or trousers I had my bare legs out which with my stupid scabs was just ridiculous but anyway

free the knee. Yeah free the need but then I also had that like horrible part of being a woman alone at night when you're in a skirt and you're just like I just feel so fucking vulnerable so I was just so uncomfortable anyway couldn't get in a cab there's no need to lower the tone with that detail because we all know the drill anyway get in my cab

nice old man called Kevin and I sit down and I'm like finally I can unplug my wedge and I went to do it and it just went, bing! And the fucking gossage of my thong just snapped, gone. I was like, oh my God. Like, oh, even for me, this is fucking terrible.

I've never heard that happening. Yes, no, yes, yes, you see, I hadn't heard of it happening either until I did what I always do and took it to Instagram because I've got no fucking shame. And then who should tell me that this has happened to them? But Daisy, it happened to Daisy's Daisy.

No way. Listeners, our producer is called Daisy, and Daisy's girlfriend is also called Daisy. Daisy Daisy, the confusion, the daisies. Both Daisies are called Daisy Rose. It's ridiculous, literally. Daisy's just putting the message going, can you believe? No, I can't. I'm going to, a caveat, when I first met Daisy, producer Daisy,

when I said we were going to do this episode. Because Alex and Daisy knew each other. from before because you had done the light show that Alex's last podcast together. And Daisy went to leave and Alex and you two were having a conversation and Alex said to Daisy what are you doing tonight? And Daisy went

Daisy's cooking and I was like oh God she's one of those she's one of those third person one of those third person people and I was like oh God we can't work with a third person person and then I realised we can because just in a crazy twist of fate

There's two Daisy roses. Daisy Daisy, so cool. So cool. So cool. But yeah, so basically my fucking thong snapped. Daisy, it happened to Daisy's Daisy. It also happened to my friend Sasha when she went on Lorraine. It's happened to so many of my followers.

And it's all the same M&S pant. The sort of like lacy poker dot scallop one. And it's a thong? It's a thong, yeah. Because I can't really imagine it happening with a knicker. Oh no. be huge. Yeah, I could blame M&S, but again, I just, I feel like it's me. You know what I mean? I just feel like the common denominator in all of these situations is me. Do you know what?

I was just going to say, and I know we talk about this a lot, but then it really struck me again last night that I could not get a taxi for the life of me. I was walking up and down Regent Street, couldn't get a taxi, couldn't get an Uber, couldn't get a black cab, nothing. So I ended up like having to get the tube home and like date, I've got a walk back, it's not far, I walk back from the tube, but it's like an eight minute walk. and I was so scared, like so, so, so scared. And I could have, like, told Dave that I was coming for him to pick me up, but he wasn't feeling very well.

And I think he was already asleep. So I was like, I'm just not going to. I'm just, and be fine. I've got my rapel on. But I was so scared, and I haven't felt like that for a long time. Because it was about, like, quarter to 12, I think. And it was just dead quiet around here, like, dead, dead, dead quiet. Because I live in, I live in London, but it's not like a super, like, fuzzy area.

and I was so scared. I literally walked down the middle of all the roads and had my rape alarm like right, ready to like come out literally with a second's notice. I was feeling the same last night of bullshit. I rang Alex because I'm not as selfless as you. And I was like, I'm having a horror one. Mine wasn't even as late, but I walked the whole way down Oxford Street,

ran Piccadilly Circus twice and then all the way down Piccadilly to the Ritz, which if you know London, like that's a long way. Like, you know, not to see one black cab. I could have got on the tube, walk back from the tube station is not safe yeah and it's longer yeah it's longer yeah so i was like i can't do that and oh it's just bullshit i hate that feeling i know i know it's so awful it's really horrible i think i need to get a rape alarm i don't have one yeah i've got i actually got a few things a few things now georgie clark did a um an instagram picture of like what's in her bag and she had a

little like a hammer that you can use like if you're stuck in a car it breaks the window of the the glass of the window. So she had like one of those. And then, yeah, there's like a criminal, anyway, criminal defender spray, but blah, blah, blah. But then even when I put the criminal defender spray on my Instagram, which apparently is legal, it just dyes the person's face and skin red.

Because pepper spray is illegal. Someone replied to me who's from the police and said, just so you know you'd get done if you did use this. I honestly, fucking do me for it. Do me for it. That's what I said. I was like, that would be the least of my worries. If I had to use it, getting done for it would be the least of my worries.

Like, give me a... You'd have used it. You'd have protected yourself. Yeah. You'd have at least have tried to. And if anybody tried to claim that wasn't self-defense, they can literally fuck off. I'll take the record. Yeah, I don't care.

Yeah, you're so hard, Al. You're so hard. You get a criminal record. You go, girl. I'll take the record. Give me my record. Yeah. In reality, I'd be like, no, please.

I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to. I didn't mean it. I thought it was my purpose. a few, Your Honor. Anyway. Do you have an awkward? Is it just you this week?

My awkward, it's going to seem really sad, but I promise you it's not, so don't take it as like really sad. It's a great way to start it, isn't it? It's brilliant. It's really sad, isn't it? What is it? Well, so yesterday, I just felt like,

do you know what? My hormones are all over the place. Honestly, they're all over the place. Like, I did, I actually have got my period now, or at least I think it's my period. I'm just very confused, but my hormones are definitely all over the place. I'm all over the place. I'm a bit of a mess and there is, you know, a lot going on at the moment.

You know, everyone has a lot going on. I know that, but I am not good at handling lots going on because I'm not a very calm and peaceful, relaxed person. And I got to, I had an hour before we met up yesterday for the thing and I went to prayer and I was just like, I stopped, sat down and just started like, I just started crying, just started crying right in the middle of prayer, like proper crying. can't catch my breath like rang my sister i was like i just can't cope and yeah it's it's very embarrassing and i just really hope no one knew me in there or recognized me in there because it's awkward

but it's not sad because i had that release and then i felt great okay if you say it okay maybe this is it's not sad though i do cry for an hour in a sandwich shop but but it's not sad it's actually really great it's really good me i'm really happy that that happened afterwards i felt very like relaxed you know when you don't actually care who's around you so i didn't really pay any attention but it was very it was very obvious very very obvious oh i'm sorry no no it's fine because i feel good afterwards but you know sometimes as long as it's not like i just always panic that i'm gonna i'm gonna need to like vomit in a public space so i can take crying that's fine as long as I have to vomit in the pub space. Why would you need to vomit?

If you get food poisoning, like, out of the blue... What are ridiculous fear? Why would that happen? No, I honestly get scared of that. And like the day, like, two days before any, any events and anything that I need to need to be there for, I like, I'm so careful with what I eat just in case. Oh my God, I think I know why you had a cry in prep. Like, I think you have a very stressful existence. Like, why are you worried about that? I've literally never worried about food poisoning in my life. I worry about it all the time. I'm just like, oh, okay. Oh, no. Oh, no. Have you ever been food poisons?

Only when I was... No, not since I was little. This is nuts! This is nuts! This is nuts! Oh my God! I know, it's a genuine, like, worry. Oh, yeah, that sounds really tiring. Yeah, I suppose it is quite tiring, actually.

I personally now, I'm just like, I can't be fucked to worry about anything because it's just like, well, if it happens, it happens, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know, it's stupid things. I mean, like, be the massive first world problems, but like, okay, yeah, what... You know, the only thing I've been thinking a little bit, be like oh god it'd be annoying if like

I got COVID before the wedding wouldn't it like yeah it would be but it hasn't happened so I'm not going to sit and be like I'm not going to move forward I'm going to ruin this whole time by worrying what hasn't happened then it might not happen yeah it seems like an annoying thing to do I'm just not going to do it I actually really love that that phrase or whatever it is I really like that yeah yeah I just I'm not doing this I love that attitude massively oversimplistic but it sometimes for me

literally is a simple I'm like no no I don't want this thought I'm just going to have another one. Yeah. So yeah, I can safely say that I've never worried about food poisoning. I got water

poisoned once in Sri Lanka and it was absolutely horrific. I shit my fucking brains out. But to be honest, it was so horrible when it happened. I was like, I'm never going to think about that again until just this moment here.

New fear activated. Yeah. No, yeah. Oh God, yeah, you'll be scared of water you're carrying a British filter around in your handbag. Yeah.

So, should we move on to the interview? Yes, and this is a great interview because we spoke to Sarah, Jane, Dunn. Yes. Sarah was in Holyoaks for years and years and years and was at the end of last year fired for doing Onlyfans and it was such an interesting conversation and I'm so excited that we get to share it. I know. We actually recorded this quite a few weeks ago

and I've just been like desperate for it to come out. I've been so excited for it to come out because yeah this is a really really big conversation And I think it's, yeah, it sort of highlights a lot of antiquated views that we really do go into and explore. So let's get into it. Enjoy! Thank you so much for being here. I am so excited from the day we said we wanted to do this podcast, we wanted to talk to you. Because I just, I have so many questions for what you do.

I admire you so much and I'm so excited. I just, I don't even know where I'm too excited. I'm too excited. Very excited to be here and very privileged that you've got me on and love the podcast. So yeah, thanks. Thank you. Very nice of you.

We want to talk about everything your whole career. Let's go. How long have you got? I was born in 1981. I guess first of all, I guess first of all we need to start like at the beginning and your career with Hollyoaks. Well, I mean wherever your career began I guess.

But obviously what we want to talk to you today about specifically is how unfairly in our as you've been treated and how that opens such a broad conversation around female autonomy and our rights to our own body, our sexuality and like women making money in a completely kind of new space in a way

I mean it's sort of a very old way of making money for women in a sense but in a traditional sense but then obviously the social media as it is anyway so interesting so much to unpack but what you didn't start off doing this sort of thing you started acting And so I guess, yeah, could we start hearing a little bit about, like, your career getting into acting?

Yeah, so it was sort of all a little bit fluke, really. So I started on Holyoaks when I was 14, so a baby, really. Now, like, when I look at, like, my nieces, when they were 14, and my little boy growing up now, I'm like, it was so young. So young. So young. So young. I didn't realize you were that young when you started. Yeah, it's so young.

So, like, 1996. So the show had been going for just about a year, I think. It was on one episode a week at the time. And it was huge because it was a huge thing for me. One, to get on telly because that was so unheard of back then. Like, I feel like it's much more accessible now with reality TV and with social media and things like that. But then it was, like, a huge deal.

Like, I got a part on telly, on a TV program. And not only, like, a TV program, but one that all of my friends were watching. I was still at high school. And so it was huge. And then I stayed there for 10 years. So I sort of went through, I guess, adolescence, puberty, all of that, whilst being on the show, first boyfriends, teenagers, getting drunk for the first time, you know, all the things that you do during that sort of that precious 10 years.

And then at 24 decided to leave. It was my choice to leave. And I think I sort of went, do I want to do this? Like, I love the job. I love the experiences that are given me. But then I was like, but I don't, like, I don't. sort of fell into this industry and I'd seen other people leave and go I'm going to be the next big thing and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that and then they just fall off the

face of the planet and so I was very aware of sort of the reality of what the industry might be and very aware that I hadn't gone to drama school hadn't gone down that route which was sort of a bit unheard of it was a bit I felt and still feel and I'm still really working on this sort of imposter syndrome that I had been given this amazing opportunity but I hadn't sort of worked for it almost I hadn't you know put in the time and effort to to do this whereas a lot of other people were like from five years old you know going to drama school and being sort of really theatrey but you did like learn on the I mean you did it for 10 years like they weren't going to keep you if you weren't yeah and that's that's the thing that now when I have like spoken to like the life coach and

therapist and things like that, it's that taking away that, I, sort of intuitively, like naturally I go, I'm so lucky, I'm so grateful. And I am. I was very lucky and I'm very grateful. But the same time I have to go, but I was there for 10 years and I worked bloody hard. I worked, you know, I was going to school. I was going to work. I was doing homework at night, then learning lines. And it was full on, but I wanted it so badly. And I was enjoying it so much that I just did it. and it didn't affect my schooling, it didn't affect my grades. So, yeah, I think I just got to 24 and went, but let's see what this really is.

Let's see if I can get another job. Let's see what being unemployed is like. Let's see what having no money is like. And I did it, and I worked. You know, I came out and I went into theatre, which I'd never done before, and I absolutely loved it. And I did quite a few theatre tours, made some amazing friends, had some incredible experiences.

really pushed myself out of my comfort zone because obviously again doing the same character for 10 years although I'd been pushed out on my comfort zone with performances and the storylines are given me I hadn't played a different character I sort of knew her inside out and you sort of like were her

like if you're 14 and you're growing up and then you're playing somebody as well like you've both got to grow and you've got to like work out what's you and what's her which must be like I don't know I was saying that for actresses like or actors coming of age like as a character it's like god that's a lot to unpick like in your head surely today I was putting that on you but it is that's so true and I and I still I'm now sort of

unpicking what is her and what is me and who I am I'm still trying to find out who I am and I'm doing a load of work on that and going but what is it that I want what is it that I like what are my opinions and not just the character I think working for a company for so long and in the industry and on a show that is, you know, more targeted towards a sort of younger audience, I've been so dictated on what I can and can't say and what is acceptable and what's not acceptable that I find myself sort of filtering what I'm thinking and what I'm saying and I'm trying to now not do that and go, hang on, before I filter it, go, but what is my actual opinion on this

and what do I really feel about this? And I can actually say that. I can go, yeah, well, I think that's like a stupid or I think, you know, and I've never been able to do that before. And so that's really quite freeing. Yeah. Yeah. God, I never think about the idea of like, I don't know, those years. You were saying, you know, you feel like you're really lucky. And like, I'm so lucky that I got this so I can't feel anything else.

And I think, like, something that we all have to do is, like, really appreciate the two things can be true at once. Like, you can be lucky and also work really hard. You can be in a very fortuitous position, but it still have its downsides. like I guess you feel like to an extent perhaps maybe I don't know maybe if you were you were with them for so long there's a loyalty you don't want to like complain about them because because it gave you so much I guess it's hard I'm just thinking as well like it must be hard in media as well in this industry because there is a lot of competition jobs are quite scarce they're few and far between so it must feel like you know you you have to feel extremely grateful that they hired me and like you know I'm so lucky because not everyone gets the opportunity to do this when actually you worked very hard. And like, yeah, okay, you didn't go to drama school, but you worked, you did school and acting on the show from the age of 14.

Did you finish school? Did you do exams and stuff? I finished school and, yeah, did my GCSEs, did really well. And then spoke to work at the time then and went, look, should I go to college? Because I feel like, you know, college is going to be a lot harder and I'm going to need to be there. Like I can't miss us.

much as miss school and they were like yeah we want you to go we want you to get an education i was like okay fine the second i sort of turned 16 they were like right you're in every episode you're in every day and that was great but i was like i can't so i did i did college for like six months i did english language and drama obviously went for the ops and loved it absolutely loved it but i just wasn't there and i was like you know what i've been given this opportunity and i'm just going to embrace it now and i can always revisit college i can always revisit university and i never needed to like I've not stopped working really apart from when I have a little boy

and so yeah but I think it is that I think a lot of it is society as well going making assumptions about well you're on telly so it must be it must be amazing and so many people would love to be in your position and they've failed to see that you're still a human and that sometimes work can still be shit and sometimes there's people that you're not going to get on with

like any job and sometimes you don't want to be there and sometimes you don't enjoy what you're doing And, you know, as much as it is a great job and being on telly is fun, it's not as glamorous as it seems. And I hate sort of saying all this because I always feel like people are go, oh, well, it's me.

And again, it's taking it back to that thinking of what other people are thinking of you, isn't it? And how people are going to be judgmental. But yeah, it's... But you're allowed to say those things. You know, you're allowed to say, like, it is not as glamorous as it looks. And I think, I actually think that's,

in some ways, a good thing to get across as well. because people, you know, a lot of people strive for fame and to be famous because I think it's going to be this, like, super glamorous life and, you know, all their worries will melt away. And obviously, that's just not the case, you know. At the end of the day, like you said, it's still a human. But also in so many other ways, yeah. There's so many more pressures that people could never foresee.

Like, there's so much speculation on you. I mean, I don't know, and I'm putting things on you, but I'm assuming, coming of age from 14 to 24, with a lot of eyes on you, females, one thing, but to have, like, a lot of the male gaze on you, like I think the way that people are about school girls and that sort of thing is fucked.

And then there's just the pressure of being a woman in the media or a child in the media that can't be underestimated. And, I mean, I still feel like terrible guilt when I'm like, oh, well, you know, some of it's really hard because people are like, oh, well, you know, you're so lucky. And it's like, fine, if you think, if you want to misunderstand, that's fine, but this is my truth. And, you know, more and more people say it now.

You know, we did an amazing episode with Holly Hagan, who said something really similar about, you know, you think TV is going to be just the tits, but actually there's a lot of hard stuff. And the money, you know, it's not everybody's super rich. Not everybody's doing great all the time. Again, like the assumptions are made. And there's been a lot of this recently around me in speculation with what's gone on going, oh, you know, she left a job paying X amount and why would she do this to do that? and I sort of go, well, okay, well then ask those questions.

Was I making that much? You don't know what I was making. And actually, I think, again, those assumptions are made that you're on telly-so, one, you're making a fortune, not true. Even when you're in, like, a long-running job, that's not true. Like, you have to sort of be busy. You have to be there a lot for it to be a good income. And people don't appreciate that, don't realize that.

So if you're there and you're quiet, And then, you know, it can be hard week to week, month to month. And then when you're out of a job and you're sort of, you know, you might get paid 500 quid to do a commercial or something, but then that 500 quid has got to last you for the next six months that you might not work. And so I think it is that people just assume. And I'm all right in thinking as well that actually how much you earn

is in the hands of the TV show in regards to how much they put you in, like you're paid per episode. Is that right? Yeah, so essentially the busier you are. So if you're in a big storyline, you're really busy and you're working every day and you're in every episode, then your wages will be much better than if you are not in. If you're not in, essentially, you're not getting paid very much. That's how it works. But you're then contractually bound to not be able

to do anything else. And when they say anything else, what do they mean? Like you can't do any other work? Like pretty much anything else. Everything sort of has to be run by the company. And I think they all, they all work like that. That's how they work. And obviously, it's to sort of keep you exclusive but there has to be some give and take especially when you know you're like we all have you've got bills you've got mortgage i've got a child you know i've got a partner and i've got all these things and so not knowing what you're earning month to month is really difficult like and it's hard to budget for that and my my husband he just set up a new business so you know there wasn't one of us that was going okay we know what we've got coming in yeah so it's and this is the thing people don't

see and and people do just sort of make those assumptions go well you must be rolling and even like one of my uncles went to me once, and this is years ago, he went, yeah, but you're like on a footballer's wage, aren't you? And I was like, I got spat my tea out, like, serious, but at that moment, I went, oh my God, but this is what people think. That was my moment of realisation of going, everybody thinks that. Yeah. And I'm obviously not going to disclose what I earn or what I've earned, but it's so, like, far, far removed from the truth. Yeah. But also, I find it really interesting that people use what you earn as, like, a defence for why you shouldn't do anything else and it's like yeah sorry you don't find people talking to

Steve Jobs being like well you actually made like a couple of million back there with that iPhone so I don't know why you're making another one for like he wants to keep earning money men want to keep earning money men want to invest invest how many people you know venture capitalists no one says to them well you've already got that one and that's you know you're rolling in it yeah what you're doing more for yeah it's the weirdest thing that people are trying to like cap you're like no you're a successful woman leave it there that doesn't go hand in hand with being happy either does it that you could be making the most money in the world but if you're not happy doing that then why would you continue to do that like you've you've got to find that

balance you've got to be happy you spend most of your life working so you want to do something that you love that you enjoy that you can be in control of and that you can look forward to rather than you know getting huge waves of anxiety and and feeling like yeah this is where I was that sort of feeling like sort of dread of going in and and and working and again that's what people just presume oh it must be so much fun it must be this it must be that and it's like, no, no. So, you know, there's got to be that. Yeah. So take us back then.

So you left Hollyo's. You decided to do your own thing and you did loads of theatre and you had a great time. What then happened from what was next from there? So sort of on and off, I returned to the show a few times, did the odd episode here and there, did a few months, sort of like dip my toe back in. And it was always nice to revisit because I've got, obviously, from being there for so young,

I've got people that I've grown up with cast and crew that have been there since day one. So it is like going home. It is like a big family, a lovely team. So I always enjoyed returning. Also, it's very close to where I live. So convenience-wise, it's great. And, yeah, sort of returned, left again.

And in The Gap leaving, I did another theatre job where I met my husband, John. So we met and then the next sort of five, six years was us meeting, working. We both did other things. He trained as personal trainers. That's what he does now. full time and then I got pregnant with Stanley and so then I became a mom

navigated my way through all of that craziness and and it was just sort of as I was about to go back to work I was sort of working in the beauty industry at the time and that I got a phone call again from Hollywood sort of saying we want to reprise the role and would you be interested and and for me then it was like well yeah because I've always sort of enjoyed it it was more convenient it would give me more freedom with Stan in that the job that I was going to be doing was going to be on the road quite a lot.

So in terms of just being able to go down the road, there's a nursery on site, so it was great. Stanley came with me a lot for the first sort of two years of his life. And yeah, and I went back and that was like four years ago now. So returned, reprised the role and yeah. And then four years later, I'm not there anymore. Yeah, that's a different story.

Yeah, so now you do only fans. Yes. It's like, would you consider like your main job now? Do you do like a bunch of multi-hyphenate? Doing a bunch of things. I would say now that, well, it's my main income and it's great because it's given me financial stability, financial freedom, to be more selective about the things that I do.

It's given me time to do the school runs. It's given me time to go, okay, I'm going to take that week and we're going to go on holiday. And things that I've not been able to. do before because of constraints of working for a production company and, you know, holidays and things like that. Even if you're not in episodes, again, that's another thing. You can't go, well, I'm not in that week. So, you know, I'm going to go away for a few days. It's like, well, you can't because we might need you. Oh, my God. And so it's just given me a lot of time back.

It's given me time to find myself. And, but yeah, I wouldn't say it's like, it's funny because it's sort of like it's not my job per se like a lot of people are going to me oh so are you ever going to go back to acting I'm like well I've never left it yeah it's not like you finish an acting job and you go well I'm not an actor anymore now I finish that role yeah it's like this is what happens like in between jobs and I never there was never my intention to set up an only fans platform and go this is this is what I'm doing now my intention was to set it up and have it as like something that I could be creative and free with and earn money and feel empowered and have copyright of my images and have say over who I work with, what happens with my

images, sort of on the side, but that was taken out of my control and the sort of media explosion that happened after I launched and after they, Holyoaks announced that they'd fired me, that then was taken out of my hands. So whereas it was quite nice to going under the radar suddenly I was like shoved to the forefront of this. Right. Yeah. Epi, like this epicenter of craziness and was in like fight or flight for about a month, six weeks of just like so yeah so I wouldn't say it's it's not exclusively what I do but it has offered me a lot of freedom yeah it wasn't media explosion wasn't it it was insane and literally like shitstorm and media yeah and I've never had that like in the whole 26 years I've sort of been in

the industry I've never experienced that I think I've been very sort of fortunate that I've never been in any sort of situation or scenario where that has happened. I'm quite quiet. I'm quite actually quite like I try and keep myself to myself and so suddenly to be pushed at the forefront and have like Granada CV sat in my

living room the morning after this had been announced and like I say this was something that I didn't I didn't go by the way guys I've been fired and I'm now on only fans like that I wasn't even aware that they were going to do that so that in itself was really sort of like whoa fuck like okay and then for it to get picked up so much.

But in a way, it's sort of the best thing that could have happened because... Yeah, and I'm imagining, I don't know, this might be wrong, but did you receive a lot of support from firing, but, you know, through the media sort of telling this, your story, did you receive a lot of support off the back of it? Yeah, and people sort of... The support's been amazing. That's great.

Solidarity with you. Yeah, it's been overwhelming because obviously I saw that headline come out. it was like nine o'clock at night, the day that I'd been fired, and got this... It was the same day, yeah, and got this huge, like, urge of, like, oh my God, what's going to happen?

And then, like I said, I went into fight or flight, and I was like, I've got a fight, I've got to defend myself, and it was really difficult as well because I'm speaking a lot more openly about it now, but again, I was in that, like,

oh, God, I'm going to have to filter everything. Like, what can I say, what can't I say? Yeah. And so it was difficult to defend myself but not be like completely honest about what had happened and my um version of events and and and yeah but the support yeah has been amazing it was overwhelming and really really helped me through all of that craziness like riding that weird big wave um and support from women in particular has been just amazing and i think that's it i think people have grown up with me and can see the

hypocrisy of everything that I've ever done in my career that has been out of my control for then to me take to take control of that and then be reprimanded for it was really like are you actually serious the thing that's so striking is that you did the Hollyox calendars and you did it was like they're very happy for you to be sexualized as long as it's making them money but when sorry this I'm probably speaking very badly against um against them but The thing I suspect that led to so much support and certainly just lit a fire under me when I read your story. It was just like, this is absolute bullshit because you've lived your whole life and so many women in the media have been sexualized your whole life.

And you were a kid, you know, when it started, whether anyone, you know, puts the hands up and admits that. But, you know, it's a teenage, you're a teenage star and it goes on and on and on your whole life and you've been sexualized your whole life. and the show know that, because every show knows that, because that's how the media works, that's how everything works. And it's like, all of a sudden, you've taken control, you're making the money, you're editing the images, or not editing the image,

or whatever, it's in your control, and that's when everybody's pissed. And it's actually so, like, it's been the most unlikely, like, exciting thing to watch women be so supportive because there would have been a time not that long ago where women probably would have been, like, you know, not as, not as supportive as what they have been.

Yeah, I think it's, back, it's the backstory, isn't it? That's the thing with what's happened to me. And the fact that the content I'm doing is the same as the content I've always done. Yeah. Yeah. We looked at the calendars, like the Holyoaks calendars before. All you have to do is Google and literally, there's like a whole... It's sexualized. They totally profited, Holyoics totally profited off their actresses being sexualized. And the guy, like the guys, like both. Were you comfortable doing that, sorry to ask.

No, it's fine. Do you know what? And that's the thing about me, like, start my only fans. I've always really enjoyed the sort of bikini shoots. And whether that's because I've done them all my life and I've sort of never known any different. I wanted to be it when I was 12. I wanted to be a model.

So for me, that sort of ticked that box that I was doing like photo shoots and I was getting glammed up. And what I didn't enjoy about them was the sort of the playoff of other girls. And it's only now, and only now that I talk to, you know, other actresses that were best friends of mine

and that were on the show at the same time, that we go, fuck, like, we were taken advantage of. And at the time, we sort of just went with it. And there were times that we did feel a bit uncomfortable, but sort of went, okay, well, but this is it. And it wasn't even just the shoots and stuff. It was on the show, like, we were in our pants most of the time on the show.

How old were you when you started doing their sort of more, bikini pant, you know. I think I remember my first shoot being like I was 17, 18. Sorry. But do you know what? Okay, and that, it's because it's so annoying

because they say the reason they had beef with you doing this, right, was because the Hollyux is for a younger audience and they don't want people under 18 viewing this content, but they'll use you under 18. I'd actually like to read out a little bit of that. statement.

Oh, yes, the statement. So they explain that it's a youth-facing drama with many young viewers who follow our cast very closely. So, due to that reason, doesn't permit any of the actors to participate in certain 18 plus websites, which is just the sheer hypocrisy is unbelievable. It's actually coconut. And yet, at 17, 18, you were in your pants on camera for them. But my argument with that as well is that actually, by moving my content from

Instagram, so the pictures, the bikini lingerie sort of shoot. that I was doing that I found really empowering, I find really empowering as a mom sort of going out there and going, mums can be sexy, you know, I'm in my 40s now, you can be in your 40s and sexy, I work hard to like look after myself and I'm proud of that and I think that I find inspiring

of other women and so I try to inspire other women but I moved those images off my Instagram and put them behind, one behind a paywall but two behind a platform where you have to be over 18 to access them. You have to have ID, You have to have facial recognition. So actually that youth audience cannot now access those images.

So if anything, it's a safer space. And they never had an issue with you with those images when they were open for everyone to see on your Instagram. Yeah, and being sold on their calendars to make their money. It's literally that they didn't want you making money from your own body, right? That's why it leads to me. Well, like, I can't see any other reason. And it's like, you know, I love like a lot of the other.

the girls and stuff on the show. And a lot of their Instagram is still full of, you know, paid collaborations with lingerie brands and, you know, sexy images. And that's great. But that's okay. Somehow that's still okay. And it was okay when I was

doing it on Instagram, but now I have taken control. The thing is this is the thing that I've sort of not spoken out much about, but they actually knew, this wasn't like on a whim, I'm going to set up an only fan. I've been planning doing something for months and I kept circling back

to OnlyFans, kept circling back and had, so you have to get approval to do things to the company, so went through all the right avenues to get approval, had Zoom calls, chatted to them and eventually had an email saying we will okay this internally. So when I set it up, it wasn't

me going, oh, I'm just going to do it, fuck it, I'm just going to do it. They knew it was live for a week and then a week into it being live and it'd been in the press and it'd all been positive, it'd all been great, I'd done a lovely podcast and chatted about it really positively about the show, really positive

about what I was doing, how empowering it was, how much I was taking back my creative freedom and control and yeah then a weekend got pulled into the office to go you've got to take this down. I was like why though? Was it a choice they say you to take it down before you're

an ultimatum. Wow. But by that point I was a weekend and enjoying it and not happy at work. Again that's you know a thing that people go you you must have been happy or I wasn't happy and so for me it was a no-brainer it was the creative financial freedom

that I was looking for and I'd found it and they knew and they wouldn't work with me to find some sort of way that we could make it work and I was like we could make this really like for the show this could be amazing this could be really empowering like why don't we use it support me help me

and yeah it was just a no no no so I was like right Well, I have to go with my gut. That they said it's okay and then change their minds. Like, you know, you sort of like denied that, but yeah. I've got so many questions. I have so many questions. So nice to actually talk about it as well and talk openly about it. Like I feel like it's been six months now nearly.

And it's nice to be able to be open on us. And, you know, they made their decisions for whatever they made their decisions, you know, why, the reasons, whatever. but I feel like for me this has been the best thing that could have happened and in a way I wasn't very happy there and I think I would have stayed there forever because it was convenient because I knew it because I could do it without even thinking

you know it had been a part of my life for so long and I think maybe I needed the push I believe in everything for a reason I don't believe in the way that they did it I wish that it hadn't happened that way I would have liked to have had a last day of filming I would have liked to have said bye to everyone what did they do to your character

was an immediate effect with immediate effect yeah Yeah, yeah, so I had no, I couldn't even go in and wrap up the storyline or say bye. I mean, I'm friends with those people anyway, so it doesn't matter, I will see them regardless. But it's just after so many years of, like, loyalty and professionalism, it's just like a bit of a kick in the gut to go, and off you vote. Because you haven't done anything wrong. That's the, like, it feels like it's like the, it's a Scarlet A, isn't it? It's like the shamed woman, like you've, we're banishing you, like you've done this thing. But it's like, but you, not only did you have permission, you know, but you also,

we're doing what you've always done. Like it's the most extraordinary, like it just feels so outdated that it's like, well, especially for such like a forward thinking show. Yeah. You know, they're so like, this really like grated on me as well. They did an episode that I saw, I didn't see the episode, but I saw all the sort of social media around it

for International Women's Day and being, and I got a lot of messages about it. This is how I knew about it. People go in, are you serious? Like, are they actually being here? hypocritical, again, going women can be anything they want to be, and why should society, society can't tell women what they can and can't be. So I had to quote it on my Twitter because I was just like, I've spoken to a husband going, I'm trying to like not get riled about this, but that infuriates me. It's outrageous. It's like women can be anything they want to be unless it's on your terms. Yeah. You say they can't be that. Women can be exactly what we want to be. Yeah. When it's okay for us. As long as we're profiting off of it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's insane. And I just feel like they've got such a good platform to make it such a more positive.

And, you know, and they've always been good at putting those messages out. But it's like you use it, utilize it. Like don't be hypocrites. Yeah. And they also like, I think you have to hold, like everybody has to hold their hands up to an extent and realize, okay, like if they think what you're doing is wrong. And, you know, they think that you shouldn't be sexualized or whatever. You know, if they, if that's their belief, then they've got to pull the calendars. You know, if they're going to sit...

To be fair, they don't do the calendars anymore. That's good. Yeah, that has stopped. But it's still a big part of the history of the show. And the characters are still sexualized. When does they stop doing the calendars? It's been a while. We've not done it for a while, but saying that, I did,

and I think I put a post up about this, not specifically naming them, but I did a shoot when I first returned just under four years ago for a tabloid in my underwear. Again, it was a really empowering shoot for me. I was training really hard. I had my little boy, he was 18 months old, and I felt great, and they were like,

they want you to do a shoot, and I was like, okay, well, this could be like, feel amazing for me. And I did it, and I enjoyed it. It was with a female photographer that I love, and a whole female team, and it was great, and I loved it. But the shots that I did, I was doing some shots for my only fans,

and one of them I was like, that looks familiar, and I pulled out this shot that I'd done, and it was identical, essentially, It's like sort of lying on a bed in my underwear and you can sort of see my bottom. And I put that post up to sort of go, look, this was four years ago. This image was out of my control, sort of, you know,

the copyright isn't mine. It went wherever I want. I didn't make any money from it. It might have been edited. I don't know. And then the bottom picture is me. Like, in control, I've chosen to do this. I haven't edited the pictures.

Like, I feel comfortable. I feel confident. And it got a really big response because it was like, well, that's the insanity. of it and again the hypocrisy of it is that that shoot was something that was arranged by them not that long ago and then I'm doing essentially the same

thing but now it's in my control it's that's now not allowed yeah do you think oh god there's so many questions I'm not right do you think if a man from the show had done the same thing set up and and only fans

do you think the same thing would have happened I don't know and that's always sort of the question is it And all of these things have gone around my head since I've finished. And, you know, I've looked at other people's accounts and again gone, well, hang on a minute, why is that allowed?

But what I'm doing is it allowed? The guys as well, you know, there's even still to this today on the show, you know, the guys are being sort of stripped off and that's okay. I do feel like I have been sort of targeted. targeted is that the right word you know and like sort of um yeah made an example of definitely made an example of which i find is really unfair you know um for many reasons many reasons but yeah what what strikes me about that as well is that just like it must feel like an absolute betrayal

given that you were there since you'd started working with in 1996 a long time ago yeah 26 years you know I know not the whole time working for them, but your relationship, you know, had lasted that long. It's such a betrayal on their part. It just makes me sad. Like, you know, I've put in, I've missed things that Stanley's done because I've been at work. And I know every mother, every parent has this.

I'm not, again, I'm not going, woe is me. Like, your job is your job. But I've sacrificed a lot and, you know, drop things. basically they can call you and go, we need you in now. So, you know, the drop of a hat gone, right, I'm on my way, I'm on my way, I can do it, yeah, it's fine. Stanley was really poorly in hospital for six weeks,

and I went to work because I was scared that I was going to get written out of storylines. And even now, this still makes me emotional now talking about it, because even now I really regret that. I regret going, leaving my little boy in hospital and going to work, when I should have, I should have just gone, no, I can't be there. like he was with his daddy and my parents were there like it's not like I left him on his

own but I don't I went to work and I filmed and I don't remember that day of filming I just remember watching it on screen a few weeks later and going I don't remember doing that but that again like that's not your fault like that's indicative of how insecure you felt in that job yeah yeah it does speak to the environment right that you didn't feel that you could say and at the end of the day they let you come here if you think you're kids in hospital don't come in bed Just don't be there. And at the end of the day for the well-being of your child,

you have to add an income. Well, this is the other thing. You have to make money, so it's not your fault. Yeah. But I understand that that would be, especially then when they just drop you out of nowhere, with immediate effect, don't even give you a chance to say goodbye. That would feel really painful.

Yeah, that loyalty that it's not reciprocated. You know what I mean? It's, it's like you just get nothing back and it's like they don't care. And I think any other company that you worked for 26 years, you know, you'd be getting a lot more back from that. And I just feel like, yeah, it's really sad. It's just, I find it just really sad that it's, yeah, ended the way it has. Yeah, it does just.

I keep, like, spinning around with it thinking, okay, if it was another company, you know, because I am sure, and I'm sure you've had this, you know, people say this to you, since this is all broken and since you started doing any fans, but people must say, okay, well, you know, if you work for like HSBC or whatever, and they probably don't want their employees, although actually thinking about it, probably a lot of only fans people have, in quotes, regular jobs,

so maybe I'm wrong. But, you know, I could see perhaps somebody more conservative could put the argument forward saying, well, you know, companies wouldn't want their employees doing this because it's not great for the brand. But I just, I say that, and then I just get this horrible, like, gnarly feeling in my tummy, but it's like, four years ago you did glamour shoots.

They wanted you doing glamour. They've profited the whole time. I know we've just gone over all this, but I just can't get over it in my head. It's just like, I can't rationalise their decision on any front. Like, it is unfair. Yeah.

Because, like, I remember Hollyoics, like, I used to watch it growing up, and it was, like, all about the pretty girls. They had loads of pretty girls, and, like, that was their thing. Pretty blonde girls, didn't they? Yeah. Like, loads of pretty blonde girls.

Like, they've always, it's not like an HSBC, I guess. It's, like, absolutely nothing to do with appearance at all. but it's something that's always been integral to their employees. I'm sure there's a beautiful people at HSBC. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but that's not a requirement, I guess, for working at HSBC, whereas I imagine with Hollyoaks, especially in the past, back in the day, back in the day,

it was, of course it was, like everyone was beautiful. It was known as the sexy soap, wasn't it? The same soap, and, you know, we used to really fight against that because obviously we were working really hard at doing these storylines and performing our little arses off and just being like, ah, and all we're seeing. has is this sexy sexy soap and I think that's what maybe again something that the show are really against is that they're trying so hard to be known for the drama and recognised for that but it's

always going to have that association and no matter what they've done to me like I will always have that association with the show regardless like I can't get away from the character yeah and you will have done those shoots and those photos will exist forever and yeah and they're not in your control and I think that's something people don't realize when even when we put stuff on Instagram it's something that I actually need to sit with more. It's like the minute you put that on that platform, that's, it is gone. Anybody can use that. And anybody can take that and anybody can do anything with it.

But you've created. And I wanted to go out. I wanted to set up an OnlyFans account so that I could. Stalk. Well, yeah, Stalk, you understand how the platform worked. And then I just thought, I was having a night to myself last night because Alex was out with his mate. And I was like, you know what?

He's going to come home and be like, what's happened here? Why are you on OnlyFans? Why do you have an account? So I was like, you know what, and I've got to go meet my accountant next week. I was like, it's just going to be a whole conversation that I'm not ready for. But, so I just have to, because I failed to do my own research because I'm a pussy and I'm scared of having to explain it away, I want to ask you so many questions about, like, how it works and like how much power you have with it and everything. I have all the questions, so sorry.

But first of all, I guess when did you start it for, no, not quite recently? So, end of October. Okay. So, just under six months ago. You set up an account? Well, I set on an account before that, prior to that, to do the same thing. I signed up to a few other creators to stalk and see, understand the platform, see how it works, see what they're doing on there.

Because obviously, like, the first time I heard the words OnlyFans of someone made the suggestion, I did the same as everyone did and went, whoa, no, no, no, that's not what I'm doing. And then didn't understand that actually the platform is much more than that. You know, it's got that explicit content on there, hence why it's an over-18 site. But there's loads of content on there. It's like a content creator. You can go on there and do whatever you want.

Like, you can be a music teacher. You can be a, you know, DJ is cooking, younger. I'm going to have an account. Yeah, there's also. There's also. It's like a Patreon, isn't it? Essentially, yeah, yeah. But it's not like,

so say like with Instagram or something like that, you know, you log on and it makes suggestions or, you know, what are your likes? You try following this person or based on the accounts that you follow. It will throw in another account. It doesn't work like that. So you have to go on and look for,

know the creators that you want to follow. So know their username. So, again, it's quite a safe platform in that if you're following me, it's not going to throw up any suggestions of unhits. Some porn you might like. You know, it won't do that. You will just follow me.

That's a great, like, respect for the creator. You pay in a subscription. So you don't want, loads of ads popping up or loads of other people that you're not interested in seeing popping up. It's literally just, you will follow me and you'll get my content. And then it works sort of like an Instagram platform in that you've got your main wall feed, so you put your main posts up, there's a little stories thing, so you can do

stories like Instagram, and then the sort of exclusivity bit of it, other than obviously people paying and then only being, you can only see those posts if you pay, is that you you can direct message that person so I can get messages. But this is where it's so much better is that if somebody is disrespectful or says something that is, you know, offensive or anything, that normally on Instagram you might block someone and then suddenly they'll pop up again and they'll pop up again and you just can't get rid of the trolls that really want to target or attack you.

On OnlyFans, you can, first of all, you can restrict that person so they can't message you, they can't buy any messages. that's it, they're shut down, but they can still see your wallposts. You can still have them as a subscriber, but they can't interact with you. So you can basically still take their money. You can still get their money, yeah.

And then secondly... Oh, that's so much more control. That's exactly right. That's what you deserve. Or you can block people completely. So if there's somebody... I did it today, actually. Someone sent me a message and I was just like,

nope, I do not want this person like interacting with me in my live, making any sort of comments. So I just blocked and they get full refund and they're gone. And they cannot set up another account. So they can't use OnlyFans or they cannot contact you? They can't contact me so they can't set up another account and sign up as someone else.

And then the relationship I have with OnlyFans again which is really empowering for me is that if somebody, so I knew there was somebody lifting images and leaking images. So I got them shut down completely. So they can't access OnlyFans ever again because they have their IP address. I was going to ask you about that about people leaking. Like what's in place to stop people from just signing up? up to you subscribing to your platform screen grabbing screen grabbing and then and then putting it on a random website like what how do you how can you police that so you can't you can't

really in that people will leak them and it's inevitable and it's happened and it's fine I mean it is what it is it's fine it's not fine because it's annoying because obviously they're my images and it's copyrighted and it's not fair on the people that are paying money to see them but it's fine in that I'm I'm not worried about people seeing the images like say whatever goes on there would have been stuff that would have gone out previous um you have annoyingly it's another thing that i pay like a monthly um fee for a takedown company so obviously all those pictures are copyrighted so they get lifted so that's illegal so you send out a um illegal notice and then those images get removed okay so it's a constant process it's something that i essentially employ somebody

to do but you don't have that control with instagram they the tabloids would never pick them up because they know the severity of that. Oh, they can't use them because they're copyrighted to you. Yeah, so when they do get leaked, they only go to like random dodgy little horrid websites and then they get taken down. So it's just that constant right there. There's another one, take that down, take that down, take that down.

That's so cool with the tabloids that they can't take them. Yeah, that's brilliant. Because they can't twist. Like, you must have this where they get lifted and then they'll put a headline with you like going, and it's like they've just caught you mid, like sneeze or something. So they're like, oh, Sarah's really pissed off. about this thing it's like no I wasn't I have no idea that you were so like

protected in a way by using the only fans platform yeah so much more protective even things like people can send you pictures like they can on your Instagram DMs which I don't go into Instagram DMs anymore one because I don't want to see penises and horrible pictures and two because I was getting and there was an account that was really quite and threatening and I got felt very very very uncomfortable, intimidated, got the police involved

and there's not very much they can do. And so I just don't go, I don't go into that anymore. Whereas again, on OnlyFans, if that was to happen, I have much more control. You could actually find out who that user is, but if a picture gets sent, it's pixelated. So it would be my choice

to open it. You can't see what it is unless you go click to open. So again, I've got much more control. Like, I don't have to see any of that stuff. confronted with like a, was it good, cyber flashing, isn't it? Cyber flashing, isn't it? Yeah, it's pop up. Yeah, which is horrendous, isn't it?

Like, you know, if someone did that to you in the street, but suddenly it's allowed if it's online. Yeah, absolutely, wild. So, you know, it's much more, it's a much safer space for me. I feel much more comfortable on there, weirdly. It's actually a really nice community, which I never thought I'd say,

I didn't, I didn't expect to feel like that. Yeah, I mean, all your, sorry, are all your followers, male, Or can you tell? Do you know the, the split? I don't know the demographic, there's no insights, but majority male, but there are some women on there, which have followed me over and are just like,

either I love you or I'm really, like, think this is amazing, or actually I'm setting up an account or I've got a few couples on there that are just like, we love you and we, you know, we want to see your picture. It's amazing. It's just sign of respect. Like, I think, you know, the amount of people, like, let's be honest, everybody watches porn

and how many people are using scummy, shitty exploitative sites like I don't know, put them on blast, but porn hub you know, you just don't know where it's come from and it's whatever. But it's, I think it's a mark of a good person that they will go and actively pay and respect the person and like

my um, fiance Alex is really, really like morally, like he's really won't do strip clubs or anything because he's got this like real sort of moral like well you just don't know and who's explain who's making money here and whatever. And I actually think that's like one of the best things like

When he told me that when we first got together, I was like, you are a lovely person. Yeah, this is lovely. Because it's the, like, it's not the women. He's not saying that women shouldn't be doing it. He's saying what's, but who's in control? That's the other thing about OnlyFans is that as the creator, the money has to be paid to you direct.

So nobody else could go, well, all right, you know, I'm going to, you're going to set up an account. And here's all my details. And, like, there's just no way of doing that. What percentage do they take, OnlyFans? 20%. 20%. Okay.

Which is fairly standard, I think. I think it's fairly standard, yeah. It actually sounds like, I mean, I don't, I don't, be honest, I don't know it, but it sounds like a really good website, and I'm sure it has its pitfalls as well. Oh gosh, yeah, I'm sure it does. A good website, which is ironic given how stigmatized, like stigmatized, how stigmatized it is, yeah, and look down upon and how creators that use it are, or then they then have this taboo around it as well.

Yeah. Have you had a big backlash, like, taboo-wise? Not really. I'd say it's been like a 90-10 split. Like, I've had mostly support. And oddly, like, the most I've sort of been targeted is by either moms going, you're a mother, I can't believe you're doing this. It was like, okay, it was all right a week ago when I was doing it on Instagram,

but suddenly, like, I'm in charge of it now and you go and you can't do that anymore. Or by men, weirdly. Again, I didn't expect to be targeted by men, just going, like, you know, I can't believe you've, you've given up this amazing job to basically show your bits online. I'm like, well, one, how do you know it was an amazing job? And two, I'm not showing my bits, thank you very much. And three, it's none of your fucking kids, isn't it? Is it got to do with you? Yeah, exactly.

It's my choice. Yeah, exactly. What right do you have over mine? Yeah, it's sort of like, well, it is that, isn't. It's my body, it's my choice. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. It's nobody, no one's forcing me to do this. No one's forcing people to subscribe.

So why does it bother people so much? Can I ask about your content? It's basically what you just did before anyway. It's just, it's just, it's lingerie, right? It's lingerie, it's sort of implied. So again, the sort of things that we would do. I always compare it to like men's magists of the noughties. So, you know, like, and I'd done these shoots all my life,

but like a boob hold and a sort of side-on, implied or you know nothing that I haven't done before that's the thing it's not like you just like I don't know you were like a nice like pearl wearing church going like

very like austere character in this show and then you just press the fucket button and we're like now I'm just going for it yeah I'm just going to start only fans you've done this forever the only difference is that you just you make your own money now can you tell I'm still just like mind explaining can I ask do you ever see yourself like exploring content that goes beyond that, like, no, do you think that's your kind of your limit?

Yeah, and I think that's really important. It's really important for me, what I did and what me and my husband discussed, because obviously I've really involved him in this because, you know, as much as it's my choice, it will directly affect him, and I didn't want him to feel uncomfortable, and obviously I'm sharing these, for him, though, he's like, this is what you've done forever. Like, it's exactly the same conversation. It's like, you're in a space, so why would I, you know, why would I, you know, Why would I be bothered?

The stigma for the people who can't be bothered to unpick all of it. Yeah, yeah. But when I decided to start it, I was like, I have my boundaries like I would do anyway. And it's about managing expectations, I think. And that's what I've learned about the site is that a lot of people will jump on and go, oh, you're going to show us your bits then? And I'm like, well, no, that's not something that I offer. You know, thanks for following.

Thanks to support. And actually, a lot of the time people go, okay, yeah, oh, yeah, totally respect that. and just wanted to ask the question because I think obviously the site does have that content and there's a lot of these people that are already on there probably follow people that have that sort of content but because I've set my boundaries and managed expectations it actually works really well for me

and anyone that thinks I'm going to show more or is expecting explicit content will just not renew their subscription and that's fine that's absolutely fine you know can I ask like your subscribers do you have a lot of subscribers like do you how do you keep them like

Because with, you know, with us, it's like, well, the algorithm says you have to post, like, three times a week and you do this many stories. And, you know, we have to think about, like, the boring, like, business side of, like, Instagram and stuff to do it for a job? Do you, do you, do you, with content creation for only fans, how does it work? Like, do you have, like, a number count that goes up and down that you've got to keep an eye on? Do you upload posts every week or day or stories? Like, how does it work? So I'm quite, um, I post quite a lot on it because I feel like people are paying a subscription. And I feel like for that, I will.

give the content so I'll post like a couple of times a day like on my wall feed and then there's optional extra messages this is sort of like how you monetise it and where you can send out so say I've done a photo shoot that day in a laundry set but there might be extra pictures of that set so you can send those out as a message that evening and go what these are like $10 to unlock and then again that's a choice for the subscribers they might go yeah I want to see more of that or no one I don't one or two I can't afford it or whatever and so I will I will just do a photo set of like a nice lingerie but that's that's the thing I can now be like completely free and creative that I can go actually I wanted you like I've done a shoot with a couple of other girls recently and that's been

great for like sort of pairing up with other women and especially for like international women's week and a day and going you know women supporting women and and cross creating and cross collaborating and that's been amazing. It's just keeping content fresh and I can shoot stuff on my own, I can shoot with photographers that I've wanted to work with forever and yeah, go, this is what I want to do.

I actually think this is, this like harks back to a conversation that we had at the beginning of the year about empowerment and whether whether profiting off of sexualizing, you know, of yourself being sexualized can ever be empowering and I think to me, this

is like the epitome of it being empowering, of having full control over it, of being happy doing it, of knowing that it's a choice. And do you know what I'm trying to say? Because for forever, like I mean, forever women have been exploited. Yeah. Women's sexuality is always, always going to be looked at, profited again. And that's the thing for as long as, you know, for 26 years Holyoaks have profited from your sexuality. But for as long as we have been a, alive. Even the fecund Bible makes Eve sound sexy. Like the whole thing, the whole way through life. And it's like brothels and whores and whatever. And it's never those women that are making money. And I think like we have, and it upsets me so much that we have such a stigmatized

view of poll dancers, for example, or strippers. And on the one hand, and there's such a debate about this. And I could talk about it for ages. Because on the one hand, this is like this is the most empowering thing. It's your body. If anybody's going to make money from it, which let's be honest someone well, it should be you. And that's so cool, it's so sexy, it's so strong, I love to see it. But then on the other side, it's like, but are you fueling, not you, but you know,

it's one fueling this sexualisation, which in turn damages so much of this society. But again, maybe we'll always be sexualised. I don't know this so much. I find it, I find it so fascinating, but it's so amazing to hear about OnlyFans in the context of you

having all the power. And it's the most refreshing way of recognizing that this is always going to happen and it's always it always will well certainly for as long as we're going to be alive this will always happen why shouldn't you be the one making the money out of it yeah exactly that's the thing like a few people have gone this isn't empowering it's not empowerment like well that's so surely that's like a personal preference i find it really empowering right it's empowering for me i am in control and also just like lull that you're you know the morals of what you do are just being picked apart.

Yeah. Like, again, let's look at their careers, you know. But the expectation of a woman to have morality. You can do what you won. Yeah.

Why must you be modest? Why must you have peak in their perception morals? Why? Yeah. It's the weirdest, oh, this is, it's just really got me going.

But I need to ask about you being a mum and doing it. Because that, that's what I love. Like that, and the fact that you're, like, not, you know, because when you think, when we think of like glamour shoots

and this sort of thing, It's always, you know, like the tabloids and whatever and the lads, mags, nuts and whatever. And you always think of it's being like 17, 18, 19. And that's what really stresses me out. So I remember looking at those when I was a kid when I was like 17 being like, well, fuck. Like, I don't know like that.

So it's really refreshing. Yeah, but I didn't look like that. No, look back to those pictures, you go, I never had a shiny, flat waist. Why are my legs glowing? Yeah, I mean. but to see that you're doing it now in your 40s is that is such a challenge of everything

of women's beauty and perceived sexuality and all of this like it's so cool that you're just like now I'm cracking on like and completely challenging that narrative like I love that. And I feel like that I'm not like the trailblazer for this like there are women that I aspire to and go oh my God like you're you look incredible and I'm doing it for the women

that are maybe like in their, you know, about to turn 40 or going, oh, I'm scared of that and going, no, own it. Like, stand up to your, what you have and just go, I feel incredible. I, you know, I'm just going to own it and why not? And lean into your sexuality. Sexuality doesn't disappear when you like hit a certain age. It's not like, I am not. When you become a mom, you don't stop feeling sexy or feeling sexual or wanting that

sexual sort of pleasure when you become a mum, it doesn't just go. So it's so important, I think, to acknowledge that and address that and, you know, be open and honest about that. But that's like, society has never let women get old. Like, we're not, everything is like anti-aging and, like, young and, you know, every, we're not supposed to get old. And basically, we're supposed to become irrelevant when we have children. Yeah, we've kind of done.

Yeah, those ovaries have done what they need to do. We can just package you up and you can just go and, like, fuck you're faster. Yeah, exactly. You've served your purpose, you looked nice, now you've made a baby, bye. So it's really cool to see it being challenged. But you say you're doing it for other women, and I think that works on a two-prong thing,

because for one, it stops women being so terrified of getting older, which is imperative because I cannot bear this fear of aging when it's the biggest privilege. It's the best thing that ever happens as well. What's the alternative of getting old? It's just being dead, and it's like, I'd rather be old.

Yeah. I said this to my mum all the time, and she worries about aging. And I'm just like, please don't. Because if you stop aging, then I've lost you. And that's the worst thing ever. Celebrate getting older. It's a privilege to get out of it and have health.

That's an absolute privilege and gift. And you get to show women that you can still be all the great things that you've been throughout your career, except more powerful now because you own it all. But then on the other side, and this isn't your responsibility, but you're doing a great job at it anyway. You're showing men who are paying for this content. And I put this in quotation marks because I hate the exact.

but what real women look like and it's like it's so weird that again in quotes porn or images like this that for men are always teenage girls like all the magazines all the content all the porno it's always like stepdaughter blah blah blah the narrative is so toxic and the sexualization of young women really young women it's so gross and so it's really important that sexuality it keeps being represented in women at an older age because men ought to be fine women their own age, attractive, and not, and I'm not saying, oh, poor men. But, you know, if the only content that they have to look at is young women,

then that is what you're going to keep being interested in. If they only see, like, shave, bouncy, really young, tiny women, you know, that's what you're interested is and that's what you'll maintain. Whereas it's sinister. It's sinister. It's gross. And it even strikes me as we're talking about how crazy it is that we're having this conversation because you are 40? I'm 40, yeah.

40. In the grand scheme of things. This is what I hate. You're young. I'm not told, but this is what I'm trying to fight against. It's like, I'm 40. I'm not old, but suddenly it's weird.

You hit 40 and you get put into that bracket, like in tabloids and things. Looks great at 40. It's like, it's irrelevant. Always with a disclaimer. Yeah. Fab at 40, fit at 40. It's always, that's so true.

and it's just it's it highlights just how warped our society is and our perception of like what should yeah what should be sexual you don't have to answer this because actually it's a horrible hateful question that you will have been asked loads of times and it's and I and I hate myself for asking it but what do you think about your how old is your son now how's standing now he's five like do you not do you worry because you shouldn't have to but do you worry or do you think, or is it a concern, or do people ask you, you know, when he gets older, what you're going to say or, I don't know, because I imagine, you know, I think people always say, well, I had a comment yesterday, be like, think of the children. Like, you know, when you make sexualised content, people are always like, oh, but children are going to see this. And I wonder, like, have you thought about how you'll explain it to him, or do you feel just totally chill with it? I obviously we had this conversation and obviously there were concerns and we address sort of the conversation that will be had and and the thing is again like the content is no different right so and I've been doing this a long long time so Stanley will you know get to the age where he can go and Google and Google mummy's name and all of those images will pop up regardless all the ones I have no control over all the copyrighted images I got papped on one of the um the

shoots with Holly Oaks a long time ago, I was completely unaware of it, and I was changing bikini top, and they caught me topless, and it went on the front of, like, the daily sport or something, and I was probably about 19, mortified. Can I interject to ask you if Holly Oates worked to resolve that situation? No, it was never taken down. Right. This is the thing. That's fucking right. Just pointing that out. Still exists. I'm not bothered. It still exists out. Well, I am bothered, but what I mean is it's still out there on the internet. This is sort of my point. And, you know, my, my dad saw that. My brother rang me and went, you're on the front of like the, you know, I didn't think that I'd be my sister. And I was like, oh, I was mortified and

I had no control and I have no control over that. That image is out there. So regardless, those pictures of mummy are always going to be out there. But what I would hope is that we will bring him up to be, you know, a man or a little boy that is completely sort of, that he's, that he, He understands, he understands, it's difficult to sort of put it into words, isn't it, but that he will be a forward-thinking man, young boy, that hopefully in five years' time things will have changed. You know, I don't plan on being on the platform forever, so hopefully by the time he's a little bit older,

that's not what mummy will be currently doing. You know, I've got a lot more strings to my bow. And, you know, there's a lot of opportunities have come off the back of this, is fantastic. So, you know, I will act again. I will do other things again. I think the sort of perception of these things are changing. Everything's being monetized now. Instagram's about to monetize TikTok, does it? Twitter's doing it. Like, it's the way that social media is going. I'm not the first person to do this platform. I will not be the last. So I think it will be more of a norm that people are monetizing off either images like I'm doing or, you know, just content creator. And Stanley will

understand that. And yeah, hopefully. There'd be less of a stigma. Well, this is it. I mean, I think judging just by the reaction from Hollyoaks firing you for going on only fans, I think that shows how far we've come. Yes. Because I do think five years ago it wouldn't have been the case. And I think we're only, we're only going to destigmatize further from there. Generally speaking, we're so prudish about sexuality and we're so judgmental about it. And it's the weirdest thing because it's like, you wouldn't be here if it wasn't for sex. You wouldn't be here if it wasn't for say. Right. Okay. Right.

And it's literally like... We all do the sex thing. Yeah. Exactly. And it's like the magazines I'm like so, you know, like how many times the kid during, you know, like your school breaks, did you talk to your friends about sex and like learn what a blowjob is? And you know what I mean?

Like we're so aware of sex. We're hyper aware of sex. We're sold sex the whole time. And it's and it's really cool to notice even within myself, like my views of porn changing, my views of like, you know, even my own sexuality, my own boundaries, my own content even. You know, I feel so much more impassioned and empowered now. And it's thanks to women like you making the content that you do that next generation is going

to be like, hang on, I don't need to be ashamed of this. I don't need to hide this. It isn't fair that we can walk down London Street on a July Tuesday and see 50 nipples belonging to sunburnt builders. but if I get mine out literally somebody can call the police like that's just crazy so it's really exciting

and you're doing it so mainstream because like you know you're going to continue having a great career and this is just part of it and you've got to own it and that was it I was like if I'm doing this I will own it and I think it's amazing and I think yeah and again

when we're coming back to Stanley you know I've done this for him him for us, for mummy to be in a better place, for mommy to be a better person, to have more time with him. Like, I think if anything, he'll appreciate that, actually, I was around a lot more. Like, I wasn't seen him when I was filming. If I was in a full day, I was leaving before he got up and I was getting home just as he was going to bed, whereas now I'm in his life a lot more. So that counts for a lot more than going, oh, there's mummy in a bikini again. Do you know what I mean?

And I think, again, hopefully in a few years' time, this will have all changed. a lot and I think it definitely will hopefully I think so I think it's cool and I think you know I can't imagine how awful it was to go through that experience with hollyox and being fired after from you know somewhere that kind of I imagine like felt like family and you've been there for so long but and like you said everything happens for a reason reason and I think almost a blessing in disguise yeah definitely for you know and on a you know on a like a collective level as well for pushing this conversation forward. And obviously you have made, yeah, have been instrumental making that happen. So I think it's really cool. And it's been so great to talk to you. So, so great

to talk to you. I feel like we can talk all day. I know. I can't wait to listen back now. It's really cool. I know. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for, yeah, for joining us. So I am absolutely delighted to announce that Alex's only fan accounts is now live. Oh my God, I was really confused for something there. I was like, you're going, what are you talking about? You're going off script, whoa. Is this not how you wanted to announce it? The thing is my mum will not get that this is a joke

and she'll be like, what are you doing on only funds? It's not a joke, Norma. It's not a joke. Your daughter, we've lost her. How amazing. Brilliant, brilliant. I'm not ruling out, not myself, but I don't think it's, I'm not sure it's for me. But I wouldn't mind an account.

Just to, I want to see what's that. I'm curious. my curiosity, so I might get an account. Me too. So, is it just me? Okay, I've got a little something to ask you. Oh God, here we go. Hi, girls.

Firstly, let me say I hate the podcast and everything it stands for. Did she say that? Of course, I love it as much as everyone else. It's my Monday highlight. But I've got a girl's got to catch your intention somehow, right? I'm a little fucking love this person. I love this girl. Okay, so my confession is that I recently had a group of mates stay over at my new flat

and woke up to the smell of my best-de-cooking us all a banging fry-up. Amazing. I was doing the washing up from breakfast and realised my friend had used the saucepan. I sterilised my menstrual cup in every month to cook the baked beans. No. In my defence, I do keep it in the cleaning cupboard under the sink all the way at the back so I don't accidentally make the mistake of other cooking with it

as I live alone and I don't have loads of pots and pans my friends must have searched around to try and find something to cook the beans in and thought oh this will do I'm so mortified but I can't fail to tell my friends should I let them to continue

to live in ignorant bliss or fess up from oh god she nearly said who it's from but from blank but please for the sake of my social life keep me as anonymous if you read this out ha ha ha ha ha ha

They never fucking tell them What they don't know Can't hurt them No, if they're still alive I really don't think this is anything to do with you Or tell them but give it like six months At least So they can be sure that it's through their system

Gone I mean it'll be long gone before then right But still Give it six months Because it's quite a funny story But gross Really gross But not your fault

I can't stress this is not Not your fault Absolutely not your fault. I'm not, yeah, I think there's a lesson in here for the group, and it's like, never cook with anything that's not in a cooking place. Like, if I came to your house and I found a random saucepan somewhere, I wouldn't be like, hmm. So the lesson I got from this is just never cook.

Full stop. You never know what's going to happen. Okay, so hi guys, love the pod, lull. I'm writing in, because of your chat involving talking to men about how, how they might perceive diet culture in women's bodies. I struggle slightly when talking to my boyfriend about feminism. As on a number of occasions, he has clearly got feminism and manhating mixed up, but I tend to get quite argumentative, and it doesn't help anything,

and his opinion doesn't change. I know you can't always change the way people think, but he will frequently say he's not a feminist, but does believe in equal rights. And on a number of occasions, I've also heard him equating fatness to unattractiveness, especially when talking about women. I never indulge these conversations, but I don't know how to talk about. talk to him about these issues and get a positive outcome. I've said this a few years ago and I've actually changed my mind on it massively but I think

the point remains I think one of the worst things for the feminism brand was that it had the word feminine in because it means that men, macho men, manly men, men for whom toxic masculinity is, you know, in their blood whether they mean for it to be or not, they instantly shirk away from it because they're like, oh, I don't want to be feminine. I, you know, I don't want this like this girly shit, you know, I'm better, you know, we're, you know, we're, you know, we're women we don't need this like feminism stuff and and you know you can be so simplistic basically if you want to be as a bloc and be like well it is equal and sorry i don't know you i know you weren't asking me specifically but i have so many thoughts on this i think truthfully

we've got to a point now where feminism um this new way fourth wave of feminism does feel and it has for a long time i suspect many different waves in many different ways feminism has felt like a direct threat to masculinity because a huge part of what feminism means to a lot of us at the moment is really dismantling the patriarchy because of the toxic masculinity that's so rife within it and toxic masculinity is this idea that men have to be one way and women have to be the other.

Toxic masculinity in my mind hurts both genders as much as each other. There's these gender roles basically and what feminism to a lot of us means is that we're fully dismantling that and deconstructing that and we want to go right and strip it right back and give equality not just so that we could go for the same job and get it which I think is a very basic and rudimentary view of what feminism and equality means and actually get it so that we're not going to be harassed on a daily basis

we're not going to be terrified walking home we're not going to expect you to pay for dinner We're not going to, you know, get our children pink t-shirts and blue t-shirts and the blue one says Superman and the pink one says daddy's princess on it. You know, like, we're challenging everything. And I think it's really easy as a man to take it as a threat and to take it personally. And to say, this isn't me. You know, their knee-jerk reaction is to say, you're so angry, you're so angry. But it's not all men and it's not, you don't mean this about me. And of course we don't mean this about you.

But society, there's a huge, huge imbalance, huge. And if you're not looking at it, if you can't see it, it's because you don't want to. There's no excuse other than that. But I think, you know, I think for a lot of people, like, sorry, I've just massively gone on one here, but I think a lot of people have this problem where people think, well, you're equal now so you can shut up.

But actually, there's so much still that we want to, to unpack and we want to do and this and this bit of feminism is a real fucking we're going at something that undermines every every part of who we are as human beings and I think that can feel very fucking threatening for men because it because if we want to start unpicking this we've got to start shaking everything and that's what feminism is it's shaking everything and they're sitting there going oh fucking hell and and I think that's why ego leads and people end up getting very defensive. Has that made sense?

No, no, totally. It's spot on. And I do think in the interest of like acknowledging nuance as well, I do think that there is a darker side to, and I'm not going to say feminism because it's not feminism, but what is perceived to be feminism whereby a lot of women say, you know, men are trash. And there is actually a lot of that. I'm trying to think critically. I do notice a lot of that. And I mean, like last night I saw a post from a feminist account. And it was basically Prince William on one side and then lots of different people on the other side. And it says Prince William at 38 and showing him with a bald head, whatever, wrinkles, whatever. And then showing other men at 44, at 50,

basically to highlight that he's aged badly. Right. I was like, Why is this feminism page sharing something like this? Like if we don't condone this for women, then we don't condone it for men either. And I do think that there's a bit of nuance lacking. The only thing I'd come back at that with, you know, when you said like the men are trash thing, when I see someone driving badly,

my first thought is, that's a woman. When I hear men speaking, they say, oh, you know, oh, God, women are so emotional. Yeah. Women are so dramatic. Women are so hysterical. so many tropes that we completely accept, completely normalise, so much that I'll do it about women. And we've been making these brash statements for years. Women can't do this,

they're just too, whatever. And now it's like, men are trash. And the men are like, well, this is a, this is a fucking joke. And it's like, no. I mean, it's not, that, it's not the nicest thing people could say. But this isn't happening on one side and not the other. This has been happening forever and ever and ever to women and I and you know when we say men are trash I don't think it's like

all men need to get in the dustbin and be taken away on Wednesdays and sent to landfill like I don't think it's like get rid of all men but I think when people say that what they mean is get rid of the fucking patriarchy get rid of toxic masculinity get rid of the men that talk over us that undermine us that won't listen to us

that you know that have these bullshit attitudes about women or whatever yeah and i'm not like i'm not being like hashtag not all men here but i do think that i do think that things like that doesn't progress us in terms of what we want to do i'm not saying so it shouldn't happen like i feel like people can do whatever they want but i think in in you know in the interest of progress i don't think those kind of attitudes i don't think it's uh productive i think it's just counterproductive productive you see there's another argument for it that I would say like a lot of women have been quite like I don't know whenever I think about and this this is not counting for men's feelings and I do think like women have had to we've had to like take a lot of this banter and just like you know

take this take the tropes and and just put up with them and it's bullshit it's annoying so there's a bit of me that and I know it's not productive but there's a petty part of me that just thinks oh please like this is the worst we've got to say about you like the way that men have been undermining women for so long but I also think there is an element of empowerment to it in that not necessarily saying men are trash but I think you know we as a generation were taught to prioritize and every generation gone by has been taught to prioritize what a man wants from us I think that's the most important thing is that do boys like you do boys fancy you do boys want to fuck you will boys marry you like it's all what men thinks what your male boss thinks what your father thinks what your

husband thinks it's men men men men I fucking love to see younger generations now who of women who are not prioritising what men think yeah agree and I also like it for men to not have to prioritize what other men think because how many men behave in a certain way because they think that the lads want to see it or whatever and I think like when when people say men are trash what they mean is like this system is trash and you know this this this breed of man this this the archaic like you know whatever people always say like oh cis white men but it's that is trash that is trash they're the ones that make the worst jokes they're the ones that the that put us down that put other minority groups down but talk you know whatever like that is trash and that I think

that's and I think as it going back to this reader's reader listener this entry I think that's probably where this opinion from this guy is coming from. It's like he's going to be reading the men is trash shit and being like, well, I'm not trash. And it's like, no, but a lot of the beliefs that you have been taught to uphold as a man are. And that's what's being referred to. This hasn't been a helpful dialogue for you. We need to get onto a practical solution for her at the end. But it's interesting, isn't it?

It is interesting. And I totally agree with you. Like, we've been taught that we need men. Like, that's what we need, all than anything else in our life. We need a man. right yeah i just i i i see a lot of stuff that i genuinely think is toxic on instagram i really do not just limited that to that i saw that i was like how is this productive in any any way like it was a huge feminism account that shared it like this is not productive like if if this isn't

if we if we if we really stand against this for women which we do like i make posts about it why are we promoting this from men and being like yeah ha ha like it's it's it's i don't know so i see a lot I see a lot of toxic stuff for a lot, I think for some people, the pendulum has swung too far the other way. And that's normal. That's what happens before it settles in the middle. On every level, I disagree with you,

which I actually think is probably good for us to like have this conversation. Do you really? But how can you disagree with that? Like, post like that, like literally just like trying to, you know, like. But it hasn't swung back the other way. Not really. Because you've had one post about Prince William

where you've had 50 million in the last year about women. No, no, I don't mean, I don't, no, no, let me just explain what I mean by a pendulum swinging back the other way, as in like, I'm not saying there's suddenly like a barrage of a shit against men that is way high, you know, way more than what women get. There is a barrage of shit against men and I, and I, I agree in that I don't think that's constructive. But still not, still not more than women. No, and there shouldn't be lots to men, you know, like, I don't think like hurting them because we are hurt is helpful particularly. Like, think, but I think the unfortunate thing in every argument for activism, the oppressed always

have to act with the most compassion and always has to act with the most empathy and always has to be the one to do, the educating and the supporting. And I think it's annoying and frustrating that really, women are really fighting back about, at a culture where one percent of, of, of, rape convictions go through or you know 97% of women under 24 have been sexually harassed and you know we are fighting a properly dangerous culture it is a dangerous dangerous place to be a woman and the annoying thing is is that as we fight for that we also have to hold these men's hand and go we don't mean you though darling don't worry you're all right love you and and that can be so jarring for me when when men will sometimes come in when I'm talking and I guess I'm a bit

triggered by this because I'll very often talk about women's safety or male violence or whatever and then I get a man coming in and say well no it's not me I'm like oh come on buddy like just get a quick this doesn't need to be about you what you're referring to is tone policing and what I'm referring to it like tone police I'm referring to actually literally going the other way and attacking I'm not talking about tone policing I think women can women are allowed to to express how hurt they are in whatever way they wish and I don't think anyone should ever tone police that. But it's not tone policing

if I'm speaking out against men and I say, men, you have to do better. And these men say, well, I don't have to do better. I haven't done anything wrong. That's not tone policing. But let me just say, like, I don't, I don't think it's about compassion. I don't think you have to have compassion.

I don't think you have to even, I don't think you have to even acknowledge a man's feelings if you don't want to. Of course you don't. I think it's good. I think it, you know, I mean, you do what feels good for you right i mean we know that male mental health has an issue as well but whatever but what i'm saying is by the pendulum swinging too far the other way is feeling like

that we can then put the stuff that's been on us and then and then put it on them i just don't think it's i think it's toxic and i think it's just going to lead us down and not not necessarily a productive path for women not men for women i think like that post aside, which I feel like is a bit different to what the, what the, what the listener has sent, like, the original thing. Yeah. Yeah, we've, we've got so off track. So off track. But generally speaking, we aren't picking up the shit that we've had on us. We're not saying, oh, you sexually harassed me my whole life, so now I'm going to get you back. Ha-ha. You know, we're not saying, oh, you, you body shame me. So I'm going to body shame you back again. That's not the way that feminism work, and it isn't tit for tat. And I'm taking it back to the listener, what this, but, you know, I think you can do this. you know, very, I don't believe that's what feminine, I don't see that. I see a lot of that. I see like body shaming now for women is very, you know, it's really in the mainstream now that we cannot body shame women, but it happens all the time for men. It happens a lot for men. I see posts about it all the time. I get sent so much stuff

and it's always more, more, way more men stuff now that I get than women because we know that we can't body shame women anymore, but we feel like we still can to men and it almost feels like it's still okay for men. Yeah and I mean there are there are two things at play and it's like what you're talking about and actually how not to get your emotions involved like not out sorry what the original question like the thing that you have to hold on to when you're talking about this and the thing that I hold on to and and that I'm very strong in my belief is that I think male mental health is a huge huge worry like suicide is the biggest killer of men under 45, that terrifies me. I think the main reason that they are in as much

danger as they are in is because of toxic masculinity. And that is the same thing, exactly the same thing that puts my life in danger and Al's life in danger and Daisy's life in danger. It is as dangerous, it is as much of a threat for us all. So sometimes people miss the mark. And what I get frustrated about is people who undermine the whole feminist cause by saying, well this wasn't great because to be honest with you you're never going to get if you want everybody to be a feminist you're never going to get everybody doing it perfectly some people are going to take it too far some people aren't going to take it far enough but you want that thing where you just want everybody doing it as perfectly as you can and I think a big part of this conversation

for you and your partner or for anybody who is trying to have these conversations with somebody who isn't getting it is to remember that not everybody's going to get it in the same way as you do Like me and Al, as similar as it comes, we literally do the same job with very good friends and we still have slightly different views on this. So everybody's going to have different views and you are going to take it personally because when somebody is not completely aligned with your cause

and you think you're fighting for your life and your safety and your daughter's future and your sister's future and everybody's future and then you've got this fucking butthead of a person just not getting it, you're like, oh God, this is painful and it can really hurt, can't it? But I think both of you have to remove your ego from it and you need to say to him look you need to understand that I don't hate men but I hate what men have done I hate what the society that prioritizes men does I hate what toxic masculinity does

to me and to you this isn't going to be resolved in one conversation and for me the best way that I am ever able to have these conversations and I do have them a lot now with people that I love and with people that I don't it's not to get emotional because I don't need to because I don't need, I don't need anything right now. What I, what I would like to do is push this person back and back and back and back and ask them why they think like this. And why do you think you think like that? And where do you think that thought comes from? And try and have it in a very rational way so as to understand their way of thinking. And when you understand their way of thinking, rather than this veneer of defensiveness or whatever that they're showing you, you're going to be

able to have a much more realistic conversation about it. But I think it's really hard not to get head up when, you know, when particularly on Instagram, we see the things that feminism is doing now is fighting for life and safety and, and pay and important shit. So when we see all that, but don't forget, we are exposed to so much information that they aren't. They don't, you know, these men don't have the resources and they don't have the lived experiences that we have. So they need to be talked into it. Yeah, for sure. And I do think it's a matter of like talking it through because it sounds like a lot of this stuff that he believes

is, you know, it's misconceptions around feminism. And yes, okay, you know, I mean, like what I was saying about the people that do actually hate men, like, yes, there will be feminists that do hate men. Like, that's, it's going to happen. There's always, you know, that happens in every...

In the same way that they are insults that hate women. Exactly. Men hate women. Do you know how many men I know that actively hate women? We can't let that undermine the basic, like the fundamental principle feminism which is for women to have freedom and to have their basic rights and to literally have equality and I think that's what you if you can get through to him there's an amazing

book that I would really recommend you and he read called invisible women and it literally changed my life and I read it to and with Alex my Alex and it talks about the unconscious gender bias in this society and all the areas that are inadvertently. incredibly rigged against women and it's fascinating about how much more likely women are to die in car accidents about medicine and the testing process and how they don't use female cells and you know that is a very good if you've got a rational thinking partner that's a very good place to take the conversation well good luck to you because I actually know it's really difficult but I also know it's not impossible and you shouldn't have to be compassionate you shouldn't have to be

and you shouldn't have to approach this with compassion but this sounds like something that really matters to you and I believe that the best way to approach it would be with compassion and keeping in mind that all he knows is all he knows and all you can do is teach him more and allow him to learn more and hope that that informs his actions and his beliefs and his behaviours then.

Shall I just finish on this little, funny little thing? Yeah, can we finish with a bit of you? Finish with a bit of humor because I really feel like we keep running, running away with these things. serious ones at the end. So doesn't everyone? This one made me laugh. I thought it was really funny. But also all these dogs are okay, right? So this person said, I'm really behind currently listening to episode five,

which is when he talked about dogs eating shit. And she sent this in and it really made me laugh. My old Beagle ate half a packet of contraceptive pills. I had to ring the emergency vet to say my dog is a dick. And also the doctor to ask for another packet of pills and explain that my dog had eaten them. My husky ate Gaviscon like it was going out of fashion. and rat poison she was fine

my other beagle also ate two ugg boots in the space of three days not one pair of ugg boots two separate pairs that was my next question two separate pairs two separate pairs did she take four um boots yeah an electric toothbrush a tom tom tom shoe and he loved unused sanitary towels and face wipes

I would come in and he'd have shredded packets throughout the house also best podcast ever I love it even though I'm slow at listening Thank you. Oh my God, we love you, but four ugboots. I know, literally, four single odd boots. I'm literally toothbrush. I always think if they swallow them whole and then if you just give them a squeeze

are they going to go zzz. Cute. Okay, we finish on a light note, that's good. Yeah, okay, good. You don't feed your dogs, ad boots. It's a general rule of thumb, but... Okay, guys, well, we're sorry then that took our little turn at the end there, but thanks for being here.

yeah thank you for joining us and we will see you next week we will see you next week have a happy monday bye bye