Should I Delete That? - Stalking: How romantic comedies have deceived us

Episode Date: July 30, 2023

This week, Em and Alex are bringing you a special episode in collaboration with the Gloucestershire Police, to highlight their new campaign all about stalking. This episode shows how to look out for signs of stalking and what to do if you, or a loved one, is affected by stalking. Em opens up about her experience with a stalker when she was younger and how it has impacted her life, ‘Maddy’ details her frightening story of her dangerous and obsessive ex-partner, Sophie Jarrett explains the importance of the campaign and finally, Sarah Louise from the Suzy Lamplugh trust joins us to show how we can support victims.For more details on the Gloucestershire Constabulary’s stalking campaign, follow this link: https://bit.ly/GC-Talking-Stalking there you will find helpful tips to identify stalking behavioursFor further support, you can visit the Suzy Lamplugh Trust here: https://www.suzylamplugh.org/Or call the National Stalking Helpline at 0808 802 0300Follow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Just popping in with a quick content warning ahead of this episode, just to let you know that we do speak about stalking, about coercive control, domestic abuse and grooming. So listener caution is advised. This episode is in partnership with Gloucestershire Police, but we will be donating our fee to the Susie Lampleu Trust. Then he was ringing and ringing and ringing and ringing and and ringing and texting, texting, where are you? Where are you? I'm not telling you where I am.

I'm fine. I'm safe. I'm okay. And yeah, let's be sort of started appearing in the garden and the night. Hello, and welcome back to Shoulda Delete That. I'm Alex Light. And I'm Em Clarkson. And we have a special episode for you today. This episode is in partnership with the Gloucestershire Police to support their stalking campaign. This is an episode that we were really keen to do, especially because, Em has some personal experience with stalking that she's happy to share with us today. Like a formal. I know. That sounds so formal. It's like I'm interviewing you. I know. Yeah. And cut. Hi, guys. So, yeah, I have talked about this a little bit every now and then. I actually don't like talking about it, which for me, like a professional oversharer is an odd one. But yes, when I was, so I didn't have a traditional experience of stalking.

And we talked to Maddie in a minute, a guest who had perhaps what you would think of as a much more like typical stalking situation. Yeah, like the rejected X. Yeah, exactly. And that actually does fit the brief for the sort of really important campaign that Gloucestershire Police are doing at the moment about sort of stalking within relationships and the way that we view romance. And it's really important. And my experience was not actually particularly like that. it was quite unusual. I was catfished as the term, as the, as is now. But there wasn't a term for it then. It was like 10 years ago, more 12 years ago. And it was just, it was very

fucking serious, okay? Like, I was catfished by somebody who managed to infiltrate my social media in a way that thankfully it's not so easy to do anymore. I mean, it maybe is easy in different ways. But at the time, it was through Facebook. And it went on for months and months. And luckily my mum being like super savvy and like very much, you know, like my mom, my mom was watching the situation and took matters into her own hands. She was watching me converse with this person who had told me that they were in the army and that they were from the Isle of Man and that they had gone to the same school as me, which obviously was like, well, this is just too good to be true in terms of like coincidences. If you think it's too good to be true, it probably

Yeah. There's a life lesson for you. But my mom was watching this and I was like 15 and she was and she actually, I mean, all the contact should be Army. I was like, do her involvement with help hers and she said, is there anyone by this name in the army? And they were like, oh. And then she contacted my school and got the same answer. And so she caught the police and the police told her at the time, tell her to delete her Facebook, it'll be fine. A classic. A classic. Yes. Delete all that evidence. Yeah, no, that seems sensible. You've obviously got a highly volatile and insane situation here. Just sweep it under the rug. Don't it hasn't happened. Thankfully, policing has moved on in that regard as we will come to here over this next episode. Yeah, that's why I was particularly so keen to do this episode because I think it's so important that the police are having this conversation.

And yeah, anyway, so that was the initial thing. And then my mum was like, that seems like bad advice. We're going to do our own thing. So we contacted a private investigator who used my Facebook. They kind of took me out of it. I stopped replying to stuff, which obviously when I was like 15, I was like, but how will I keep up with my friends? And I had, oh, Al, it was fucking awful.

I had to give my login to my parents and they had to read every single message I'd ever sent to this person who I thought was my friend. Oh, God. And I really trusted. And so I'd like told them all about my life. And then my parents had to read all these messages. And so I think the police had to, well in time, yeah, the police had to and this private investigator had to and they had to learn how to speak so that they sounded like me so that they could keep it going because obviously they didn't want to delete the evidence. They thought they wanted to catch this thing. And to be honest, I actually forget the timeline of everything and I kind of forget the details because I definitely have some trauma around this that I plan on leaving unresolved. But I often have to ring my mum up whenever this does come up and be like, hey, what happened then? And then what happened? She's like, you were there.

But no, my mum's amazing actually about it, and we can definitely recognise some trauma. But anyway, the private investigator, I can't remember the exact timeline for it, but it was back in the day when you'd make a plan with someone on Facebook, and they would write on your wall, being like, hey, see you at this very specific location at this exact time. So my friend did that on my Facebook wall, and I went to the exact location at the specific time, like a twat, and it turned out the person that was stalking me also went there at the same time. And I didn't know this, but I forget the timings. But anyway, I got a call from, I think it was my mom, being like, you got to go.

You got to go. We've called the police, like, whatever. And at some point, the private investigator that we hired said, this is just too big for me. I think it's, I don't want to do this. You need to contact what was an agency called Seats, which was attached to the government. It was a child exploitation online protective protection services, I think. It's since been dissolved, which is very sad, which is again why I'm so passionate about this campaign because anything springing up is so important.

and I ended up under the care of Cops and then the police were back involved and had some like funky guy who came to hang out with me at school to keep me safe which is just what you want when you want to be sounds dead cool yeah 15 I'm such a loser

but we talk about this in the episode I do feel still this burning sense of embarrassment that this happened to me when I talk about it I can cry with it I just yeah I feel like such an idiot that I got into this position, and it's actually that's, I think that's one of the reasons I find this so hard to talk about it, is you just feel, it's like, it's like such a Muppet.

But there was no way for you to know. How would you know? No, how would they know? And you were a kid? I was a kid. Literally a kid. Yeah, I know, I was. And I was being groomed. Like, I was, I was being stalked. It's not my fault. It's not my fault. It was this person's fault. And this is in the days before we had this awareness around catfishing and online harassment and and grooming. We didn't really know at that point.

And by this point they basically thought they were dealing with a paedophile ring and so I had to be called into my head teacher's office with the government people and we had to talk about it

and it was like oh my God and then I had somebody come and teach me how to use Facebook effectively and safely I just want to be cool like all my friends like leave me alone

oh cringe and I'm using that language because it's my coping mechanism I'm not actually saying that being stalked is cringe I just I found it very difficult And I still find it very difficult. I mean, you find everything difficult at that age.

You're just saying like me in general. No, like, one finds everything difficult at that age. Never mind this situation. Yeah, it was just horrible. Yeah, I was so embarrassed. That's the overriding thing. Yeah, so they thought it was a pedophile ring. And it was taken very seriously, which is fab.

And the IP address was tracked. And they eventually found this person and arrested them. and it turned out that it wasn't a, it was one woman in her early 20s who was obsessed with me and he just wanted to be me and that was probably the most embarrassing part of all of it and I'm laughing because otherwise I just want to cry because it was just fucking traumatising and then it was like oh she's like a woman and she's probably of no physical threat to you

I mean that's like massively I think just thinking it was was going to be this huge, like, ring of paedophiles, and then it was, like, one student. I was like, oh, okay. But no matter who it is, like, that's still very threatening. This is something that I've learned as I've grown older. But you were just a kid. So when I speak about this, I speak with it, I speak about it actually very unelequently, and I don't speak about it in the way that I should.

I don't use the right language because I definitely revert to my 15-year-old self where I'm awkward and embarrassed about it. Well, that's where you left it. That is where I left it. And I literally parked it there. I wrote an email to all of my friends explaining what had happened and I never talked about it again and nobody was allowed to bring it up

and I just couldn't ever speak about it until I got older, I got a platform I found myself in a position of privilege and hopefully one that might be able to enforce some kind of change in the world around online safety and I have been happy to talk about it since then so I've spoken about it in schools and I've spoken about it publicly, I've spoken about it

at a roundtable with the government And I am happy to talk about it now because I actually want to show that stalking doesn't just look like romantic comedies. It doesn't, you know, like this campaign. It doesn't just look like angry exes. It doesn't just look like the sort of traditional edophile view that we have of what it means to groom a child. And so, yeah, I feel bad for laughing about it and saying that I'm cringe and embarrassing

and all that stuff. But I've got to be real with you. I'm uncomfortable talking about it because you just. do feel, you just feel embarrassed and that's something that is really important to end because for me that's a sense of embarrassment that I notice that you feel when you've been sexually harassed because you feel that you were wearing the wrong thing or you did something that's something made you uncomfortable when you were drunk and you think, well, I shouldn't have got so drunk. It's the same thing. Yeah. It's victim blaming and what I was told by the police

originally get off Facebook was not the answer because it's the first part you're deleting evidence. But the second thing is, is that's fictin blaming. And I was never going. to just not ever exist online. That's not fair. It's not fair. You can't tell a 15-year-old girl. No. You can't hang out with all your friends forever.

It's just nuts. So, yeah. That sounds very traumatic. It was coconut. I still remember that Covent Garden Day. And, like, I know we're laughing about it, but I didn't go to Covent Garden for 10 years. Like, I couldn't.

I was so scared. I was so, and yeah, and still, with this fucking feeling of embarrassment. That's terrifying. But isn't that nuts? as I'm getting this call, I'm like, oh, cringe. Like, I'm hanging out with all my friends and I've got to go because I'm being stopped. I think it's because you've left it there and haven't like poked or prodded at it since.

I don't want to. That's like the overriding emotion that you remember from back then, which totally makes sense as a 15-year-old kid. Totally makes sense. But, yeah, I feel like some counselling at the time could have been valuable. Probably would have been a really good idea. Maybe. But I just was absolutely like, no, we will never speak of this. pretend the last year

and all that humiliating shit didn't happen but it's not humid like no as a grown up I'm like oh my god like poor me like I want to go back and like there's some inner child work to do here like I want to go and give her a cuddle but I'm not going to Alex I don't want the therapy I just want to leave it all right I just want to fucking leave it

forget that it ever happened there's a very frantic manic energy coming from across the table at me I've been in equal parts really anxious and really excited to do this episode I don't like talking about I feel sick talking about it. The last time I did talk about it was like that government round table thing

and I left and I just wanted to like sit and cry for like two hours. It's really weird. I don't feel like this about anything in my life. I'm very chill. Which could indicate some counselling now. I don't want us. Just believe it. It could be helpful.

Nah, it's fine. But that's why I wanted to do this so badly. Yeah. And I think it's really good that you're talking about it. And I'm proud of you for talking about it. And I think it really, yeah, it adds weight to this campaign as well and why we are so excited to be part. of it and to be supporting it.

And again, overriding, I feel embarrassed. My mom was just so amazing. And I can't thank her enough for what she... Obviously, you know, she's my mom. But she just, she trusted every instinct. And I think you'll really, I hope you'll really enjoy this episode. But I think it's something Maddie says. It's something that everybody we speak to says,

trust your instincts. And my mom trusted, I fucking knows, I didn't have any. But my mom could see what was happening. And she had it. And she advocated for me the whole way through. And because of that, the situation ended safe. and resolutely and this person is not in my life and I've been able to move on. So I think this is a really important episode and that's the takeaway. That's the main takeaway.

It's just if something feels wrong for you or for a loved one, trust your gut. Without further ado, we have Maddie here to speak to us. That is not her real name, but she is really bravely sharing her story of stalking with you and we hope you enjoy it and take something from it. Maddie, hi. Thank you so much for coming in today and joining us. super grateful for you coming to tell us your story about stalking. And we imagine that it can't be an easy thing by any means to tell it. But we really appreciate it. That's okay. Could we start at the beginning, please? Are you able to explain your experience from the beginning? Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Well, yeah, obviously I found myself in a relationship

with a challenging individual, let's say. And it was very, very sort of intense with him. From the word go, lots of I loves yous and turning up at work and all these sort of things. Love bombing, right? Total love bombing. Oh, so I thought, wow, like this guy seems great. Like, he seems really interested in me. He wants to talk to me about everything to do with my life. And, you know, he's turning up to pick me up from work.

And at first I was thinking, oh, it's kind of different that this guy seems actually quite interested in me in my life and everything. And then very early on, there was a really horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach about everything. I was like, sometimes I'd sort of wouldn't even know that he was going to be outside my workplace. And I'd walk out and be like, oh, hello, you're here. Okay. And then it was lots of challenging of sort of, I saw that you put this on your Instagram story. There was a guy in the picture, who was it? I had to explain lots of things.

How soon into the relationship was that? Probably about a month. I would say. Oh, wow. Yeah. And very early on, there was a very, I kind of knew that there was certain things I could and couldn't do and couldn't say. I was, I don't know, I sort of picked up a vibe of like, oh, I don't know if you're like that. And I don't know if that would be okay.

And he was, but it was so strange how I look back now and think, how the how did I let myself get roped into all of that craziness? But yeah, he was just very good at what he did. And he was very good at sort of doing a lot of, I'm so wonderful, you're so lucky to have me. I've got all these other women that are so interested in me. And if you don't do all these things for me, I can find another girl just like that. And for some reason, I was like, oh, my God, like, okay, I need to sort of try and, you know, be a good girlfriend and impress him. And, you know, you feel a bit like, oh, I've got competition with this guy. I need to sort of, you know, keep him happy.

So manipulative. So manipulative. And there was lots of, I think there was one time I decided, because he was keeping me up late even before he moved in with me. He'd ring until the early hours of the morning. So I started sort of missing work and being too tired to get up and this and that. So the one morning I woke up and thought, I'm just so tired today, I can't go in. So I woke up and had a little bit of a lion and cancelled my shift and then went to see my friend.

And she was like, oh, I've got me up my hair cut. You want to come with me? Yeah, cool. And he rang me up, where are you? I was like, well, actually, I'm in my local town. It was, that was the end of the world. How could you? This is terrible.

You didn't tell me you weren't going into work today. I was going to come and pick you up. How awful you are for not informing me that you weren't going to be there. And I was thinking, well, you know, and yeah, so I stood behind this hairdresser, sort of like trying to hold back tears on this phone, like, oh, my God. What did your friends say who you were wearing? She sort of like came out and was like, you're all right? And you just kind of, for some crazy reason, you feel I must hide this.

I must sort of go, yeah, I'm absolutely fine. Everything's fine. You know, because there's like an element of weird. There's an embarrassment to it, I think, as well. Like being told off. Yeah. Because I think when you meet somebody, you tell all your friends, like, oh, I've met this great guy.

He's great. And then when he's not so great and your friends are like, there's everything okay. You're sort of like, you want to think, oh, I don't want to tell them that I, I've met this guy and he's actually not as great as I thought he was going to be. So you kind of go, yeah, yeah, yeah, so fine, you know, just, you know, oh, nothing's wrong. Because you just don't want to, I don't know, you don't want to do with that kind of embarrassment of saying to you're, to say to anybody, oh, I was wrong. Yeah. He's actually not so wonderful.

What were the nighttime calls? Just, just, just talking. Stop you going out. Do you think it was? He was very intent on making me very tired. Because as the relationship progressed, he would, when he lived with me, and that was drawn in lockdown as well, which was awful, he would force me to stay awake. And if I fell asleep, he'd make a noise or do something to sort of wake me up.

So it was just keep me, yeah, it was like a, so I became quite groggy, to be fair. And then he ended up sort of taking me to the doctors and saying that I had lots of mental health problems and I was seeing things and hearing things and I was crazy. so I ended up on lots of sort of medications that would make me very tired and then he wouldn't let me sleep when I was taking those so I was kind of a little bit like a walking zombie sort of walking around like so yeah I think that was a big part of

I guess how people like him operate they sort of try and take away some kind of of your mental stability a little bit because if you're very tired and run down you're so easy to sort of just go So, okay, you're just kind of go, okay, whatever. And the doctors just let him speak for you. Yeah, he's sat in the room.

And so I've sort of been, that's kind of why I'm very into sort of now what I'm doing with all of this and speaking. Because just to kind of get that recognition of sort of even with doctors and everyone has to go, be wary. Like if you've got somebody, they might seem like they're this caring, lovely person that's come in. It's like, I'm so worried about my partner. but sometimes it's always best to speak to somebody on their own, that's for sure. That's such good advice, actually. And was that all happening when you moved in with him? Yeah, well, he moved in with me, yeah.

But like this kind of stalking thing kind of happened as the relationship was going on as well. I can kind of say, obviously, the main stalking happened obviously after the relationship ended, but it was already kind of there. Or showing up at your work. Yeah, well, he sort of had full access to my mobile phone as well. It was right at the beginning. It was picked any reason. And that's another sort of thing.

I'll always say, like, if they say find any reason to have access to your phone, just, yeah, don't do it. Because it was like he said, oh, I need to have access to play this thing or something or other. So at the beginning, I thought, well, I've got nothing to hide. Yeah, of course, crack on, you know, set out this thing on my phone. he need to. And as soon as he had the pass code, that was it. I'd be sleep and he'd be just scrolling through every single thing that he could find on my phone. I think old conversations, even like going back to the beginnings of conversations from years ago on WhatsApp and all the rest of it to sort of pick out bits that he could find that were an issue and bring them up.

I'd wake up every morning, nervous, thinking, oh my God, he's been hilly been up all night going from my phone. What's he going to have found that's going to have displeased him this time? Because he had full access to it, I couldn't really talk to friends or talk to family or search for anything online unless I was really clever about making sure that any history was hidden and, yeah, emails or anything, really. There's a really sort of big element of dependency, especially with the sort of control that he was had, which is as a kind of a difficult thing, I guess, with the stalking. Because when you've come out of that kind of relationship where there's so much control and dependency, it makes it so much harder when the relationship ends in the state. stalking starts because everyone goes, well, why did you answer the phone or why did you do this and why did you do that? But I was so dependent on him and his presence that even though I didn't want him there, when he would call it, be sort of a kind of still this sort of invisible pull to

answer or to kind of still talk because I'd become heavily dependent on him because that's what they do. He's just sort of kind of made my life a bubble that was just him and that was it. like just us together and it was always like, this is us together, we're a team and everybody else is, you know, against us. So how did the relationship come to an end? It was a really long drawn out process. Okay. Because obviously he was not keen to So it was your decision. It was my decision, yeah. I think I saw a like a memory come off. Or my friend shared a picture that I was in from years before we'd been out doing something. I think I looked at it and was like, I'm just so, so unhappy.

I think, you know, that was me. And, like, now I'm not doing, like, I'm so unhappy. So I think I just had this moment of, I can't, and I message her on Snapchat because I knew those messages would disappear. And he was asleep at times. So I was like, right, I'm going to message her. So I just mentioned saying, I'm really unhappy. And she just packed to it with her, I know.

So, like, and then she's saying, like, come and meet me, we'll have a coffee, tell me what's going on. She picked me up. And then she's like, right, enough's enough. Got to get you out that house. Doesn't matter if he's still in or what. I need to get you out of the house. So she got me out of the house.

I was at hers for quite a while and there was a refusal to leave, lots of, I'm going to kill myself, I'm going to do this, do that. I can't, I can't leave everybody watching and why are you doing this and all those sorts of things. So yeah, he sort of was doing that and eventually got him out and then he did unfortunately get back in. And I just ended up like being like, I'm being torn every which way here.

I don't know what to do for the best. I just want to, I was like, I just want to have my old life back. So completely broke down and he ended up obviously back in the house. And then that's when it was perfect boyfriend time, I'll say. It was all of a sudden, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, I'm going to do the other. And it was cleaning the house and looking after me, running me baths, and all of a sudden, all of these perfect, wonderful things that had not been present throughout the entire relationship, we're all sudden all there.

And it was all, I'm going to book a holiday, I'm going to do this, we're going to do that. and, you know, taking me out for dinner every night of the week, like, oh, what do you fancy tonight? We'll go here, we'll go there, we'll go everywhere. And I think because I was just so exhausted, I was just kind of like, yeah, okay. And he was sort of very like, see, you know, your family don't understand. I'm the only one that does. And so that kind of went on for a little while.

And then eventually, I think because my mum was being quite persistent with things, and she did actually get the police involved herself. That was when I just thought, I don't want this. I don't want this in my world. So I did sort of have to go for a little bit of turmoil of getting him back out of the house again. And then unfortunately that's when the stalking all sort of started kicking in there. And yeah, we sort of started appearing in the garden, in the night. Fuck, yeah.

Yeah, that was my one response to one day. Because he was very insistent on me not having certain things on my first. physical appearance and I'd had my nails done by my friend as a treat and he called me on FaceTime and I was thinking, oh no. I was like trying to hide desperately. Your hands. And I fell asleep and I must have put them in shop and the next minute I woke up and I could hear these stones at the back window like he'd like tap tap in and I thought, oh no. So I got up and I looked and he was in the garden and I was like oh no. And I was because of straight I was like oh no. What do I do about this um and of course he was like well you've got to let me in now i've come all the way here

i need to go to the toilet at least let me go to the toilet before i go because i was like you can't come in you're not coming in at least let me use the toilet you know i've got to travel all the way back home you've got to let me say next minute he was in and then i just want to talk i just like oh no you know actually to say because i was sort of sat at the top of my stairs going like that so i don't know why you sat in your hands i already know what you've done and i was Like, oh, no. Oh, gosh, what you've done? You've got your nails done.

Yeah, that was a punishable offence. So, yeah, it was lots of that. And any excuse, I had to do a lot of kind of, oh, let's just wait for everyone to die down. And then, you know, we'll see how things work out. So you had to kind of let him know that you were on his team. Yes, yeah. I know my family being a bit nuts, but we're going to.

Yes, yeah. Like, we'll just wait this out. and then... Need low profile at the moment. Even though in my head I'm thinking, I need to get rid of this bloke. I think I was hopeful that he'd just sort of... Tire of it.

Start drifting back into his old life. I was just sort of thinking, like, if I can just keep it going for a little while and then just eventually go, I just don't think it's going to work. Like, after he'd sort of, maybe sort of got tired, I was hoping he'd get tired. Maybe sort of naively.

I started cutting him. And I think that's where the problem started, was I started to slowly try to cut him out of certain elements of my life. I blocked him on one thing and stayed at my friend's house for the night because we'd been out having a drink, and that was also a no-no to be drinking anyway. So she said, come and stay at mine. I don't want you going to home on your own tonight.

Like, you know, we've had a few drinks, go come with me. So I sort of stayed there. And she said, then he was ringing and ringing and ringing and ringing and ringing and and texting and texting, where are you, where are you, where are you? I'll just go, I'm my friends. I'm not telling you. what friend? He was like, is it this friend? Is it that friend? Is it this friend? I was like, I'm not telling you where I am. I'm fine. I'm safe. I'm okay. Because there was a lot of like,

I'm worried about you. I'm so worried about you. You need to tell me where you are. I'm safe. I'm okay. I'm fine. So he was doing this most of the morning the next day. And then I said to my friend's, I've got to go home now. I'm going to my other friends for Sunday dinner. So she said, yeah. She said, well, I'm going to, you're not walking home. I'm going to drive you home. We'll have a quick look around. Your friends, like, new. Yeah, because I sort of told them, like, the whole relationship by this point. So she was obviously concerned.

Yeah, so she said, I'll just come with you. We'll have a little look around, have a scout about, make sure if it's okay. Which we did. She had a quick scout around the house with me, and she was like, yeah, yeah, everything looks okay. It's all I fine. She went upstairs and I stayed downstairs. She was like, no, everything looks fine. Nothing was disturbed.

Nothing was disturbed. So, okay, that's cool. I went to shut the door because we spoke because I was keeping my key in the front door because he still had the front door key so I was keeping my one key in the front door so that I couldn't put key in

so I was coming in from my back door and we said ta-da I don't know the rest of it and she said if anything you need anything she should just text me something like can you grab me a bar of chocolate or something like that she said you don't have to say anything terrible

she said if some you know I think she was wary of certain things so she just text me saying oh fancy some chocolate or something so he sort of said this and she left and I went to lock my back door because I was obviously locking myself inside the house

lock the back door and the window pane popped forward and I thought that's weird that's never done that before luckily my friend hadn't got in her car at this point and so I sort of shouted out I moved away from the door luckily shouted out to sort of say come back and have a look at this

because more just get an opinion to be like what do you reckon of that? Yeah. I'm like, that shouldn't be doing that, should it? And then as I sort of came away from the door, that's when the whole glass window just fell through. Wow. And then I noticed a key missing from another one of my doors

because I had three doors to the house. A key was missing that would never have been moved. So as soon as I saw that missing, and I thought, is in this house. I know, I know someone's in here because I never moved that key. So I ran upstairs. I was looking sort of in sliding under every bed I could whip and pack shower curtains.

because I was like something. You must have been terrified. At this point, I was more sort of terrified, but kind of like really, really determined to be like, I know, I know something's stuff like. And then I ran into my bedroom and then whipped my bedroom and wardrobe open. And I looked in and he was just sat there in the wardrobe.

Oh, my gosh. So, of course, I just freaked out and screamed. But, yeah, it was pretty scary, to be fair. And that's when, because obviously my friend did say, you've got to ring the police. now, you know, because I was very insistent before, like, no, no, I just want to try and move on with my life. Yeah.

And hopefully he'll go away. Yeah. But she was like, no, no. Enough is enough. This is. Yeah, this is deranged. This is not right. Did he try and explain away the situation at the time?

He's worried about me. Oh, my God. That's what you do, people that you're worried about. You're sitting in their wardrobes. Yeah. He was like, well, I know your mental state isn't great. So I came into your house to make sure that you weren't hurting yourself. Oh, my God.

So once your friend. insisted that you called the police. What happened then? To be fair, they were great. They came over, sort of took all the details down in the interview. He disappeared. Yeah, he'd run away. He'd disappeared.

He'd ran away. I think it was about, it took about a week eventually for them to sort of get him. I was, I went to obviously to stay somewhere else during that time. Obviously, he was arrested and put on bail for the breaking. And obviously, the condition. were not to contact me and so forth. But of course, that's when the more sort of malicious kind of element of the stalking came in because beforehand it had been, he was always there, like that appearing, ringing, sending

gifts. That was a big, big one. That's always a big one. I've kind of said in most of the interviews as well of, like this gift-giving thing, it's seen as such a romantic thing when you break up with somebody and they send you a big bunch of flowers and it's supposed to be like this whole oh how lovely look you're really trying sending you flowers and yeah it's not and I think I sort of said before if a gift is turning up at your house and it's making you feel sick to your stomach it's not a nice gift to be receiving

because it's not a gift it's not a gift if you're thinking I don't want this from this person I don't even want to accept it because when you do you then also feel kind of owing to them as well you feel a little bit like they'll sort of say to you will you accepted my flowers you accepted the presence that I was sending to you yeah you loved all the gifts you you love all the attention and now you don't want me so you sort of feel that as well and because I think that's just ingrained unfortunately into women yeah to be honest to be oh well I've given you this I've done this I've bought you things so you must be sort of grateful and loving towards me. How could you not love me now?

It's a true one's dream to have flowers. Yeah, I've done all these wonderful things. And then, obviously, once he was then on bail, that's when it was silent calls and no caller ID and sort of lots of, I think there was pretending to be other people, message saying, oh, I'm so and so, I'm his friend from school, I'm ever so worried about him, you know, can you contact me to let me know that, or even like to the extent saying, oh, what's his sister's name? can you let me know what it is so I can contact it. It was him the entire time. It was all just any sort of means to sort of get into contact and so forth. But yeah, it was, yeah, silent calls.

And then it kind of progressed from not saying anything to then it be no one talking, but a love song playing down the phone and whispers of like, hello, or I'm sorry and all this sort of thing until eventually I just sort of just go, what do you want? You know, speak. What do you want? And then it's talking to be like, why have you done this?

So I'd end up in conversations. I think I was getting as well to the part where I was more angry and looking for answers and being like, why did you break into my house? Why have you done this? Why have you done this? And then I got there. Oh, I didn't do that.

I didn't mean, oh, you know, you made me worry. It's your fault. Yeah, it's your fault. and so yeah do you tell the police I was telling every single time that he was contacting and I was reporting it

well I was supporting the police and to the stalking advocate that I had in the end who was brilliant absolutely amazing like I just think every police force should be linked with these stalking advocates

because they were so invaluable like she was amazing the entire time how does that work the stalking advocate yeah she sort of just gets assigned to you, to your case, and they're kind of just, like she was just my voice as well with everything. And it's very nice to have somebody that you feel is on your side irregardless. You know, you can talk to them, you can rant to them. Anytime you feel a little bit

stupid because you've answered the phone to them or anything like that, you know, you can speak to them and they'll always be kind of like, it's not your fault. It's not you. It's not your fault don't feel bad don't feel guilty they're sort of just there for any kind of counseling anything you sort of need like by the time that was like with myself I found was great because I was getting so tired because it was like having to report every tiny little thing that's going on it was getting to point and I'm so exhausted bringing up this phone line and reporting all these little things they'll do that for you I'd text him and be like this has happened now this happened last night and you're like do want me to do it I'll do it for you I'll report it for you

they are, yeah, they're so good for victims, so good. What happened then with his sentencing if you're able to tell us? Well, he was on remand for a very long time because obviously he continued contact and so that was, you've broken your bail conditions, you continue to contact. So he was really arrested and put on remand and there was lots of sort of issues sort of always going on. I think he was sort of kept sacking.

his defence or something or other was happening all the time so there's lots of narcissism though isn't it like no one's going to do it as well as I can you know I need the best so he was doing a lot of that which kind of drew out the process for a while and then whilst he was on remand the contact from where he was in jail or prison that started then so because he had access to a phone he was contacting you from prison yes yeah that seems like the first thing the prison should stop him from doing. Yeah, he had my numbers sort of down on. It was under a sort of a code name

that you put on his list of contacts. And I was supporting it every time it happened because the first time it happened, very luckily, my mother was actually there. She was staying over. So I was just about to sort of settle down to sleep and you'd have that last sort of glance at your phone as you do. And then a call started coming through

and I was like, oh my God. Like, who's calling me at like half-past eleven at night? Because I didn't recognize, I thought, this can't be like some company asking you for money at this time of night, surely. So I did sort of answer like, hello? Very kind of like, hello? And it was like, this crying sort of came for it. And I was like, oh my God.

I thought, what the hell? And then it hung up. And then it rang again. And I sort of was like, hello? and it was just like crying and wailing down the phone so I quickly ran up the stairs my mum because my mum didn't know what the hell she was like what are you talking about

running into my bedroom where she was staying and he was like he's calling me he's calling me she's like who's calling you what you're talking about she's like who who and I was like he is he's calling me because she was going he can't be he's in prison

he can't be yeah he can't be calling you And I was like, no, he is. I think she definitely, at one point was looking at you thinking, she's lost it. Yeah. Are you sure? And then it rang again. So we sat on the edge of my bed and it rang again.

She was like, answer it. Like, let me just hear. So I answered it. And it was the same crying and going, I'm sorry. God. And because we didn't recognize the number and it looked like a sort of line in line number. So, of course, my mum just freaked out. Thought like, he must be out.

Yeah. He's got to be out. You know, he can't be in because... How could this be happening? And so she obviously freaked out thinking, oh my God, he's going to be standing at the back window, looking for the window or something. So she obviously instantly called the police.

So we all sort of sat there and the police turned up and we were told eventually like, no, no, it's coming from jail. That is just... Yeah, it's unbelievable. And it continued for a little while because I was very sort of getting lots of conflicting advice of like, just block it, block the number. But then I was getting told, don't block it because evidence as well.

And also, that's not antagonize him further because blocking, unfortunately, it seems like the best bit of advice to block if you don't want to receive calls from someone. But unfortunately, it does antagonize further issues because like I've discovered, the more contact and the more access you take away, the more agitated they become. and that's when they then take it to the next level because the more they, well, the more he lost control, that's when he ended up hiding my wardrobe. So I was thinking, well, I don't want to block it because I knew as well that he had, he always had a little gaggle of girls

that was his little fan clubs. I was thinking, I don't want someone turning up at my house that he's convinced needs to come and do something to me or something. I don't know, because I think, My head was just going through every sort of little thing. Of course as it would. Every possibility. I'm like, oh my God, I don't know what to do.

You've been through so much at that point. How long did he get in prison? Three years. That's good. It's good, yeah. He was arrested after the break-in because he broke his bail conditions. Then three months into remand, he started calls from the prison. Which kept him in for longer because obviously the trial kept and had to be rejigged

in order to that. And so he was still in for a little while. And then it was around September that he had a hearing. And they said, right, okay, we'll give you bail conditions. You can come out until the trial, which would have been the December. And I think it was the Friday he was released on the Sunday morning. I woke up and I think I just thought, hmm, kids went there. And I thought, well, I'll watch something on Netflix. You know, it's a Sunday. I've got nothing really much else to do with my time. I can't be able to get out of bed right now. So I sort of went on to Netflix and I looked and I thought, that's so weird. The characters on the profiles, two of them had changed.

They'd been changing different characters. And then I looked and I was like, those are characters that were from his favourite films. Like he was very into sort of cartoonity sort of films. I was like, that's weird. So, because it was a guest one that had been changed. Because I just picked it. I was like, that's weird. So I went on there, and I clicked on the guest profile, and then there had been, like, films that had been watched sort of, like, 20 minutes worth of, like, different love films.

And one of the films that we'd watched sort of very early on in days in our relationship had been watched. So I just kind of knew straight away. I was like, well, he's in my Netflix. So then I went over to my account, and he'd added sort of P.S. I love you, the notebook, all this and that onto my list. It was after he'd been in prison. This was after he'd been in prison, as he'd been released on bail. And so, yeah, he'd been doing all of that.

And so, of course, I just automatically rang the police. And then went onto my emails, changed my Netflix, passwords, and everything else. Because I hadn't even thought about the fact that, obviously, whilst he was still living with me, he'd connected his place from my TV, and you'd connect your Netflix and everything through those, don't you? And I not even thought to myself in a million years,

like, oh, I must make sure. change my Netflix. Why would you? So then I had to obviously change my Netflix password and I kept getting emails like saying, oh, you know, you had a password reactivation request. And I think it was for that one,

Disney Plus and my Spotify account because he'd accessed that very early on when I was trying to break up with him because that one did annoy me because I was trying to listen to music and he kept skipping the songs that I was listening to. Oh my God. I was like, stop skipping my music.

Like annoying but also like psychotic. Yeah. Literally. infiltrating every part of your life. Yes, yeah. And it was strange because even though it was just something as simple as my Netflix account, it was so weird to sort of think, and I felt really, really violated. And I was, I was trying to explain it.

I was like, that's your private life when you go home and you sit and watch what you want to watch on the tellings. It's like, imagine having somebody stood over the back of your sofa watching what you were watching in your private time when you're watching whatever film, you want to watch for series. And I was like, I don't want it. him knowing what series I've been watching. Yeah. I was like, I don't want him knowing those parts of my life. Like, this is, this is my world. When you go home and you close your curtains and you put film on, that's your, that's your life.

The sanctuary, haven, yeah. So I was a little bit. What did the police say? They obviously had to question him. So they sort of took the details of everything that had been going on, went to go to his place to question him and again, he disappeared. so because he was supposed to have been tagged but he'd never arranged to get the tag

sorted out to get somebody to come over because it needs to be all plugged in like to your house and stuff so he didn't arrange for that to happen and I was actually at work they rang me to say like yeah we've gone to question him but he's not here and I was like oh well

can't you find him with the tag oh no he's not got one on I was like I'm fabulous so I was like okay so it was kind of like yeah we'd prefer you not to be at home right now. Can you get your kids, take them out? So again, it was like, I had to, I remember I did break down in tears at work. So I was like, I just can't do this anymore. Like, it's just like too much. So again, that was quickly rushing home, getting closed, making sure the kid's dad dropped him off at my sister's house and having to spend another

night on somebody's sofa because they, yeah, he disappeared for a little while. And yeah, and then he was back in. So he took a little bit of a little while. And so he took a little bit of, he took a about a week of his bail and he was in. Oh, like into prisoning him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. Yes, yeah. Yeah, I say, I cannot fault the police.

I know how hard it is to sort of, especially when people are so vindictive like he is. Because there's so many tiny little things to report and have to, like, they have to go through it. Because it was, I think when it's tiny little things, you don't think at the time, is it worth reporting it? Like, I've had a funny view on my Instagram story, should I report that?

Will they think I'm being overdramatic? Will they think I'm crazy? Yeah. So I think that's sort of how when someone is stalking something that's how they work as well because it seems like a tiny little thing and if you said it's just that one thing to somebody

they'd be like, come on, are you really worried about? Yeah. You've had one phone call from the guy. Like, come on. But then it's a phone call, then it's an Instagram for you, then it's a gift, then it's this,

then it's that. And every tiny call and every tiny little thing seems, you feel like you're being over-dramatic and crazy, but it builds up and it builds up. Yeah, it's like, and it's like you said, it just feels like it's, you know, this person is just in your life constantly. So, yeah, that's been my biggest piece of advice to anybody is like, don't ever think that because it's something that's, seems minuscule to somebody else, it's not, if it's bothering you. Trust a gut. Yeah.

If it makes you think, don't like it. It's really bothering me. Yeah. Yeah. Don't ever hesitate. So did contact finally cease then when he went into prison for the second time? Yes. Okay.

Hopefully. I'm staying hopeful. He's still in prison now? No. No. Yeah. So he's just come out of prison? It will have been a year now.

Oh, wow. Oh, okay. And he hasn't contacted you since. It's the... No. And there is a restraining order. There is, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. 10 years. Okay. Which is a good, which is very, yeah. How do you feel? Yeah. Just, I always just say quietly positive. Yeah.

To be fair. I know I cannot spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder. No. Because that's him winning then, really. And I had a lot of attitudes of like, oh, why are you still talking about it? Why are you doing this? Why are you doing the other? And I'm sort of very kind of thinking, well, I'm not going to not talk about it or be quiet about it because if everyone just stays quiet about these things and the people that do it are winning because, you know, if we don't talk about it and we don't, it's still keeping that, oh, that's a thing that must be kept secret.

We don't talk about, we don't talk about domestic abuse or course control or stalking. That's a, it's a dodgy subject. and that's how the people that do it work because they rely on the victims not talking about it and if victims don't talk to or never or talk about how it happened then future victims might not recognise what's going on so I also think like you must be really proud of yourself for talking about it yeah it's something to not be embarrassed about because somebody do I think someone said, oh, you know, you're not embarrassed? And I was like, why should I be embarrassed?

I didn't do it. No, no. I didn't do anything. He was the one doing it, not me. So, and that's, again, why I sort of tried to kind of say is, well, especially if it's come from a situation where there's been elements of control and so forth as well, because it's so difficult. And you do feel ashamed and embarrassed. And you feel ashamed and embarrassed like, well, I did answer or I did speak to them or I was nice done that one time and all. And yeah, it's.

Yeah, there's nothing to be embarrassed about worship. So it's not you. On the contrary, you'd be really proud of yourself for speaking so much for openly about this. Thank you, Maddie. Thank you so much, Maddie. Next up, we're speaking to Sophie Jarrett, who was the County Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence

Strategic Coordinator for the Gloucestershire Police. Hi, thank you so much for coming to talk to us. We have just heard from Maddie about her experience of stalking. And on the back of that, we're now going to talk to you a little bit about Gloucestershire Police's campaign to tackle stalking. And it would be great to hear, if we can, a little bit about that initiative,

what it involves, what it looks like. So the campaign, the idea behind it essentially, has been to kind of focus on romantic comedy and the tropes that come with romantic comedies. So looking at how in the majority of romantic comedies that exist, the premise behind them is that quite often somebody says no, and you keep pursuing them and you do lots of things that are perceived as romantic, and that actually no tends to mean to try a bit harder

and actually what that's demonstrating is quite often really harmful behaviour that is stalking in its essence but obviously within the kind of romantic comedy sort of phase it very much portrays it as very much romantic, very normal, a part of normal romantic pursuit and that's to be expected. So what we've tried to do with the campaign

and with the video in particular is present it as a trailer for a romantic comedy but actually rather than presenting it as a positive romantic behaviour, we're very much showing that it's problematic in its nature. I'm really highlighting actually a lot of the things that Maddie will have told you about in terms of her experience, so that kind of turning up at somebody's workplace, giving them gifts, all of those sorts of things that tend to happen in romantic comedies and seen as a positive, actually flipping it on its head

and really demonstrating why it is problematic. As you're saying that, I'm sure I can see Matthew McGonnet waiting in a car park for his bow to finish work. Yeah, that's a complete challenge to, I guess, like, I mean, to go all the way back, like, it's a lot of, like, what women are taught about what we should want in a partner. Exactly.

And I think that's the problem with a lot of romantic films. It completely normalises that behaviour. And unfortunately, then, when it happens to people in real life, if it's perceived in society, it's being quite normal, it's really difficult then to articulate when it becomes problematic and when you're scared, which is exactly what Maddie. would have been explaining to you that it can be seen as something that people might be embarrassed to talk about and maybe friends and family don't always understand why you find it

problematic. But the very nature of stalking is that that behaviour is unwanted. And there will be scenarios, of course, when somebody is giving you flowers and they are pursuing you. But if you want the attention from that person, then it could be romantic. And I think that's why it's sometimes really difficult to identify when it is stalking. Because there might be some scenarios where you're getting that attention from somebody who you actually want it from, where it could be a positive but as soon as it's from somebody where you've made it clear

that you don't want that attention then it's problematic and then it is stalking so that's part of the reason why it's so difficult to sometimes identify it until it reaches quite a high level where you actually really identify quite a level of risk then as well

yeah it's powerful the romantic comedy link that is really powerful because I've never ever questioned those behaviours and you're right they have become so normalised that I guess it becomes easy then to, for victims of stalking, to like gaslight yourself, you know, into thinking this is a good thing.

Completely. Yeah. So I think it's a brilliant way to reach people. Yeah, and that's the primary aim behind it, is wanting to put that video out there so that people who are experiencing those things can start to identify it as stalking and that they know then that that is something that they can report, that they can get support for,

and that it isn't something they just have to live with. And if it is something that's making them fearful, then there are options for them and they can report it to the police. They can get support from stalking advocates or other victim services and be given, you know, wrap around support to make sure that, you know,

that can be dealt with and they don't have to just live with that behaviour. Touching on the reporting it to the police and stalking advocates, can you explain sort of what the... I think, I think listening to this, having had my own experience of stalking, ringing the police for me was like,

please don't, because my mom did it on my behalf, like, please don't do this. Like, please, it's embarrassing. I don't want it. It's too dramatic. Don't do this. What would you say to anybody who feels like that about what happens when you go to the police?

Can you kind of explain or reassure anyone listening that the police do take it seriously? And if so, how they do that? Yeah, I mean, certainly. I think as times moved forward as well, the police have a much better understanding of stalking. I think in previous years, perhaps the response wouldn't have been quite as positive

because actually from a policing perspective identifying those behaviours as being stalking was also something that they found quite difficult when it was reported and sometimes a victim might have to almost spell it out and if they don't know that they're being stalked it's quite difficult for them to articulate that to make the police understand. But most certainly there has been a real shift I think

in them taking it seriously and being able to identify that behaviour. And for the most part they will listen to a victim. They will take that seriously. And certainly within Gloucestershire, we've very much focused on training police officers to help them identify stalking behaviour, let them know that the impact that it has on victims so they understand how they can communicate with them appropriately. So they truly understand the risk. And I think the key thing as well that we try and get across is that they don't view incidents in isolation

because, again, if you take an incident in isolation, it might just be that you only look at somebody leaving somebody flowers and just looking at it through that lens, it doesn't seem that problematic. But once you see that pattern of behaviour, you then start to identify the risk. So that's certainly been the focus of the training that we've done within Gloucestershire. Super important.

Yeah, it's really, really important. And I know one of the things that, one of the people that delivers the training, from a police perspective, they often say, you know, please make sure that you look at the forest and not the tree when you're looking at incidents because you really need to understand

that the complexity behind it and it isn't just an isolated incident. It's very much a pattern of behaviour. And again, within Gloucestershire, we do have our own stalking advocacy service that's commissioned by the Police and Crime Commissioner's office, which is not usual for each individual area in the country. So certainly within Gloucestershire,

we're really trying to push the stalking agenda and make sure that victims feel that they can come forward and that we can respond robustly to it. There's an acronym that is used to identify stalking. Can you explain that to us, please? Yes. So it's to try and make it as simple and straightforward as possible. So it's not just something that we put forward for the public, but also for police officers themselves.

So we really focus on saying that stalking is identified through thinking of four. So thinking that the behaviour is fixated, obsessed, unwanted, repeated. So just to kind of keep that four in mind. And that's one of the things that I say to a lot of the police officers if I deliver training, is actually if they go away and forget, you know, the bulk of what I may have said to them, If they just remember and keep that in mind, that will help them identify stalking. You know, just thinking of that it's fixated behaviour, it's obsessive behaviour and it's unwanted by the victim, and it's repeated. So again, acknowledging that pattern of behaviour.

Is that applicable to the victim as well if they're struggling to identify whether or not it's stalking? Yes, most definitely. I think it's quite a helpful thing for them to keep in mind as well. I think especially once they've acknowledged that behaviour is unwanted and it just continues to happen despite the fact that they've asked somebody to leave them alone. I think it's really important that they keep that in mind to help them identify it, definitely. In terms of contacting the police, if somebody is listening who wants to contact the police either for themselves or for somebody that they love, how would you recommend going about that?

Is it as simple as 999 or? Yeah, most definitely. So obviously, 999 if it's an emergency, 101 for non-emergency, a lot of police forces also have online reporting mechanisms now. So if somebody doesn't feel comfortable picking up the phone, they can quite often report online. You know, you can as simple as, you know, walk into a police station and ask to speak to an officer and report it there and then as well. So it can be in any way that you have any contact. I mean, even if you see a police officer in the street, you can approach them. And if you ring 101, does that take you to your regional police?

Yes, it does, yeah. It will always take you through to your local area. The Gloucestershire Police Force has a stalking hub. Can you explain what that is, please? Yeah, of course. So the stalking hub essentially was established to try to support police officers and investigating stalking crimes more robustly. So we have a fantastic coordinator who leads that hub.

We also have a tactical lead from within the police. And they work really closely alongside the stalking advocacy service as well. So what they're essentially looking at is all of the cases of stalking that come in that are high risk. and then they are looking to put really robust investigation plans in place. So they're helping officers who perhaps aren't as familiar with investigating stalking cases and perhaps need a little bit of guidance and support, especially if they're quite new officers that haven't been exposed to some of these things very much before.

And they will work with them to not only then safeguard the victim and put things in place to make the victim feel safer, but to really make sure that it's being investigated properly. And one of the things that that hub will also do is just allow officers, no matter the risk level, to just come and ask. ask for some advice and guidance. Members of that team are also trained in a specialist risk assessment tool called the stalking risk profile.

So they will also be able to do a more enhanced risk assessment as well just to truly understand the risk that's potentially posed to the victim and also understand the behaviour of the offender and try and tackle that and challenge it. One of the things that's recently been introduced within the hub as well is to have legal services sit in on all of the meetings to make sure that we promote the application of stalking protection orders as much. as possible. So that's been quite a recent addition just to try and make sure that we are applying for as many of those orders as possible to protect victims. We are going to talk about

this in a minute with our next guest, but stalking as a crime is quite newly recognised. Is that right? It is, yes. No nice way of asking this. But like, I suppose if you're being stalked or you know somebody that is that has to, that is aware that they are maybe being the victim of a crime, I suppose evidence is quite important. Is it? kind of advised or recommended that people keep hold of certain things in order to best pursue it legally? Yeah, definitely. So, you know, victims are experiencing that repeated contact, repeated behaviour to keep a bit of an instant diary is always really helpful, just to record any contact if you receive any unwanted gifts to keep those gifts, but if those

gifts happen to be perishable, so if they are flowers or food, perhaps kind of take a photograph and then log the time and date that that was received. So all of those sorts of things. If you have kind of messages that are being sent to keep hold of those messages, particularly through WhatsApp, I would always suggest that somebody also screenshotsed them, because obviously the sender can delete those messages and then you could lose that evidence as well. So, you know, there are things that a victim can do just to keep a log of all of that contact. So actually, when they do decide to report it to the police, they've got a kind of log of exactly what's been happening so that there is an evidence trail. Has there been, I mean, this is a fantastic campaign. And I'm

wondering, is there a particular reason for it to come to the forefront now? Has stalking increased at all? I think the primary aim is rather than acknowledging that perhaps stalking's increased, it's acknowledging that it remains an underreported crime and that we know that there are more victims than we know about. So we want to encourage people to come forward and perhaps like we said already to kind of identify that what they're experiencing is stalking and feel confident that they can report it or know where to go to seek help because we know that, you know, as I say, there's so much more stalking happening than we currently know about and we need to know about it in order to help more people.

And that's because of the way that we casually talk about romance. Yeah. It's such like a genius idea for a campaign because it kind of tears up the whole premise by which we view love, which is actually nuts or like romantic endeavours. Exactly. And I think that's the thing, you know, it's when it's on. unwanted, you know, as I say, there will be times when, of course, it's okay to send someone flowers because they gratefully are received. And if somebody wants that attention, then that

behaviour is okay. But the minute that somebody says, no, please stop. That doesn't mean try harder. That means please stop. And I think that's the key. And I think it's like what Maddie said as well is about trusting your gut. If you think something's wrong, something probably is wrong and trust yourself and advocate for yourself. Definitely. Definitely. Always trust your up. Yeah. I'm the same as you. I feel like I've got like 10 rom-coms flashing through my mind of people turning over the workplace. I can see them all sit on the hood of a car. They always turn up to the world place. Bradley Cooper did it in The Star is Born. I can see it. Yes. Like waiting for her at the end of the show. Just waiting for her to finish work. It's a bit much. It is, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. It's weird, isn't it? You'll never watch a film the same way. No. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. Really interesting. Really interesting. It's such an amazing campaign. Thank you so much for coming to talk to as well. Thanks for having us. And next up, we are speaking to Sarah Louise, who is the head of operations at the Susie Lamplew Trust, which is the UK's leading stalking authority. Hi, Sarah Louise. Thank you so much for joining us today. You are head of operations at the Susie Lamplew Trust. Can you explain what the trust is for us, please? Yes. So the Susie Lampley Trust starts as a personal safety. charity after the disappearance of Susie Lamplu back in the 80s. It's believed that Susie was stalked prior to her going missing.

She's never been found. And now the charity does an awful lot of different things, including the operations side, which is my bit. We have the National Stalking Helpline, and we also have a range of stalking advocacy services. We also have the coordination responsibility for the stalking threat assessment Center, which is the Met Police's response to stalking. But we're also very much involved in a range of different campaigns, not just about stalking, also in relation to harassment and online safety and women in the nighttime economy.

So lots of work going on really in relation to personal safety for people in everyday life, as well as the more focused work on harassment and stalking. Having listened to Maddie's story and then seeing the work of Gloucestershire Police, It sounds like she got a really good outcome for what was a horrible situation. But, you know, we see time and time again that many of these Cremth, particularly ones that affect women, often don't get the result, I suppose, for lack of a better word, in court. Do you feel like what happened to Maddie in terms of him getting a three-year sentence and then the restraining order is standard or was that very good?

So, as you said, generally there is a lack of outcome. stalking cases. 2021, 2022, there was 0.01% of cases actually got a conviction at the end. And that's from the point of reporting. So there could be many, many fall downs along the way. Often it actually falls down before we even get to a point of charging. That one first conversation with either police or social care or somebody that they've reached out to can be enough to put a victim off from saying anything else or doing

anything more about it. And that goes right through to the difficulties that we heard in relation to the gathering of evidence, proving the impact on the victim, which is required in terms of stalking law. So there are lots of different points at which you can fall down, really. We do a lot of training with police forces, but also with CPS and magistrates to try and help with some of the understanding of stalking and the way that it changes people's lives. But there are lots of different points where it can fall down that can stop cases getting to the point that Maddie's got to. It sounds like she did have a good response. It sounds like the police were great. It also really helps that she had a stalking advocate. Across the country, there are actually very few areas

that have stalking advocates. So it's great that Gloucestershire Police or Gloucestershire PCC are funding that. That completely changes the outcome. We produced a report in 2022 about the difference that an advocate can make in a case. And we know that statistically it can shift huge, usually in terms of numbers when we talk about, you know, having the advocate involved. We also, as a trust, deliver things like stalking protection order training to forces. So having all of that knowledge in terms of what we want a case to look like and how we can get through those processes can be really helpful for the professionals. And that would be the same for other stalking advocacy services. So having somebody,

that's in place to support the victim, but also challenge where decisions might not be going in the direction we'd expect them to see could have made a complete difference in Maddie's case. Having that advocate can be really vital. Four victims of stalking, if they want to build the best possible case against their stalker, what's the best way to go about it and what's your advice on that? Yeah, so we need to be gathering evidence, which we've already heard a little bit about in terms of, you know, not deleting things, not blocking that stalker, keeping screenshots pictures. There's a downloadable log from our website that talks you through the recording of when an

incident happened, what that was, but also the impact it had on you. And that can be really vital if we're talking about getting some of the higher charges in a case because you have to prove the impact on a victim of the behaviours. Can I ask about that? Because I'm sure it's really important and who am I to question it? But it does seem tough on a victim. Really tough. That they then have to kind of, again, it's this pressure on women to always be the perfect victim.

Absolutely, of course. And if you have an advocate involved, it can be really helpful with these things. If you're not in an area with a stalking advocate where a police force doesn't have the resources or it just simply doesn't exist, are there other things, are there other places that people can turn to? Absolutely. So we have the National Stalking Helpline. We cover the whole of the UK. We also have a National Advocity Service so we can support victims in any area across the whole of the UK. There are other stalking charities as well that will be doing similar work. There are specific stalking charities, for example, in Scotland, and there are others that cover other parts as well. So there is always somebody that can support. But of course, as you said, sometimes it's the onus on the victim to seek out that support.

We do receive referrals from police forces or other professionals, for example, probation officers or social workers around the country, sometimes ID for service as well. So domestic abuse services that are involved in cases that have escalated to stalking. We refer into national advocacy services where there are not local provision, which will mean that a victim can get support. Some of the local services also have either quite a specific remit. So some stalking advocacy services, for example, only support in relation to domestic abuse cases. And, of course, there are stalking cases that are not your ex-partner, or your ex-partner is your most common, most likely stalker. But there are lots of other different types of stalker as well.

And also some specific stalking services that only support women, who, of course, are by far the most likely victim, but we do see male victims as well. So a national advocacy service can support in those instances. There's also a service, again, on our website called an Am I Being Stalked Tool? And it can help you by answering multiple-choice questions come to a conclusion as to whether this is stalking or not. Sometimes you might, it might be stalking, it could be harassment, it could be neighbour abuse. We have people that use that tool almost when they're trying to feel what it is. Like they know it's not okay, but at this point they don't necessarily think maybe calling a helpline is the right thing to do.

They're not ready to report to the police, for example. So that tool can be really useful to just help people decide if this is okay or not. Like Maddie explained the instinct with the stalker, I imagine the instinct would be to block them and to deny them access to your life, physically just cut them loose, you know. And she explained that that can be really antagonistic for them. Can you just give us a bit more detail on that? because I was really surprised to hear that.

Yeah, so I guess what we heard and what Maddie didn't say, but I was saying in the background as I was listening, was that Maddie was risk assessing as she was going. So she was risk assessing the situation and mitigating. She was pacifying the perpetrator when it was necessary because that was the best way for her to keep him calm. And we see that a lot in domestic abuse cases, coercive control cases, but also in stalking cases.

So Maddie would have instinctively known blocking him was not going to work. but for family and friends and other professionals who haven't had specific training, that can often be the first port of advice. And that can be, it can come from a good place. So, of course, if this is your, you know, child or daughter or your friend or your sister that's experiencing this, of course you want them to stop. And so it would be quite normal advice to give, I think. In terms of that actually escalating the behaviour,

if you think that a stalker is working from a point of obsession, if they actually receive a block, it can just trigger for them to need to find another avenue. So it could be that actually if you allow for that the text message just to keep coming in or the emails to keep coming in, don't ever respond to them, but at least you know to some extent what the thought processes might be. For example, sometimes if you have blocked someone, but actually they've tried to send you a threat or they've said,

I'm going to be here today or I'm coming to your house. It's safer for the victim to know that that's the intent. So blocking actually would remove you from knowing those things that you might need to protect yourself from. Also, of course, from an evidence point of view, it's really important that you're able to show the police that. So if you say, I block them so I don't know if I'm receiving messages anymore, That's quite different to you saying, I've received 10 text messages in the last two days, for example.

Of course, it's not what we want for someone forever, but during that phase where you're trying to figure out what we're doing, how we're risk assessing here, blocking can escalate the behavior. And we know of cases where, you know, we might have closed down all of those avenues. And so the last resort is that they're going to come to your door because they can no longer get that email through or that text through or that phone call through. so we wouldn't want for anyone to inadvertently escalate that behaviour. It's such a delicate situation, isn't it? And I'm wondering if we think about the psychology behind stalking, behind obsession, how does it stop? How do we stop that? I mean, is prison effective?

Is a punishment like that effective? How is, like, what's the most effective way to stop it? So early intervention is key. And the earlier we can get some form of intervention into a situation like this. the better chance we have of stopping it at an earlier point, which is why multi-agency working is really important. We heard that Gloucestershire Police have a hub and a clinic set up. I mentioned the MESIP, so a multi-agency stalking intervention program,

where we have multiple professionals involved in that. Some stalking perpetrators do require mental health intervention, but not all. And again, if we can get some form of intervention, in terms of restriction on their behaviour, that can be really useful at an early point. So we heard that Maddie had bail conditions. We would actually always want for a stalking protection order to be applied for. That can be applied for a long time before we get to a point of making a charging decision. And with stalking protection orders, there are not just restrictive requirements, for example,

not to contact, not to go to the address, but also there can be positive requirements added to that. So, for example, you must hand over your passwords to social media to the police, or you must engage in certain activity, such as meeting the health professional. So that can be really positive in terms of being able to manage the situation from a proactive point of view and trying to get, you know, regardless of how we're stopping this stalker, even if that is by providing support, it means that we're able to intervene and stop the behaviour earlier. You said there, and it's something we talked about before, that it's not always mental health. For me, I always assumed, probably because it helped me think that the person who did it to me

clearly had something mentally wrong with them. And I still believe that because I think it's very odd behaviour. I don't think mentally well people do that. But is that something societally, you know, we've talked about the campaign with the Gloucestershire Police where it is this idea that the romantic comedy is kind of teaching. women and men, I suppose, kind of what romance looks like. Do you believe that it is like a societal thing where we kind of allow stalking to be normalized?

Or is it more likely that there is something mentally perhaps just off with some people that it ends up like that? All of those things. So in some cases, I mean some types of stalker, you will see a higher prevalence of mental. health concern, but not always. And sometimes, even if there is some element of mental health concern, it can be relatively low level, not necessarily anything that is diagnosable or treatable. In terms of society, we absolutely do have a narrative that we need to try and change about that.

And that probably goes wider than stalking and more into kind of the whole violence against women and girls' agenda, really. But yes, absolutely, there is an element. of the response that people are often given to stalking. We heard that Maddie, for example, had flowers. I know of victims that have received money in their bank. I know of victims that have had the ice scraped off their car every morning with a coffee and their name. All of these things that police initial response might be,

that sounds lovely, I'd want a stalker too. And again, if you're telling your friends or your family or your neighbour, it can be very difficult for people to not romanticise that because, you know, we're almost taught that those things are very nice. But particularly with the use of technology we heard about Maddie Stalker, for example, logging into her Netflix account and potentially, you know, finding her social media pretending to be other people, we also have almost a developing undercurrent of kind of tracking as well.

So if you think about some of the apps that are very widely used, used like Snapchat. We can see where our friends are. We're almost normalising kind of that tracing element, which is a new thing for stalking. Not a new thing for stalking that you might be trying to track your victim, but a new thing in that you can do it by, yes, just more tools in your armoury really. And with the younger generation particularly, that's almost become normalised. You might be tracked by your parent when you're out at the park. So then actually when your first boyfriend says, let me have your location settings. We're almost training people to believe that's okay. Whereas, you know, 20 years ago, somebody wants to track your whereabouts, we wouldn't have

thought that was very normal. So my situation happened almost entirely online. I was approached online and they were caught via online tracking the police were able to track the IP address. So obviously it's a bad thing because it happened online, but it's a good thing that the technology is there that it was easier to catch this person. But I wonder for, and I really don't like, and it was something that I really struggled with at the time, this kind of like victim blaming, like, well, you shouldn't be doing this and you should have done this and you could have protected yourself better and you were naive and whatever. But unfortunately, that's the world we live in. We do have to protect ourselves. So I suppose not for anybody listening

who is experiencing sort of the kind of stalking that Maddie described, but is there stuff that we should be doing just as standard practice to protect ourselves? against these sorts of behaviours? I mean, I guess, like you've just said, we wouldn't necessarily want for anyone to have to change their behaviour because they might be stalked or they might be a victim of crime.

But it's possibly useful for us all to be aware of our online presence. Obviously, there's lots of work happening currently with the online safety bill, and we have been involved in some of the campaigning to try and have social media platforms safe by default, for example. So at the moment, if you create a,

profile. It will automatically set it as public unless you change your settings to make it private. We'd like for tech companies to turn that around. So it's private unless you choose to share it. So there's a much bigger picture, I think. And I guess it's important before we sign up to new apps or social media or even just, you know, shopping forums that we're kind of just doing a bit of understanding to know what we're signing ourselves up for. and what that could mean, just Googling yourself every now and then could be really useful in order to see what you can find about yourself. If anybody is listening, that is a friend or a family,

if anybody experiencing stalking or anything like it in any capacity, can we ask what the advice would be for them? Absolutely. So I guess, first of all, you need to keep the conversation going. It can be really easy to give advice, such as, you know, blocking or staying away those things that we've discussed. But it can also be quite dismissive if, for example, you question maybe the victim's response rather than the perpetrator's behaviour. So, for example, it would be easy for a friend or family member to say, but you keep replying to them or, you know, but you've spoken to him again. And those things can very much add to that feeling

of guilt and shame that you described, kind of that embarrassment. So I guess it's really important that particularly in cases where we know that that stalker actually is an ex-partner or somebody who has some emotional tie to that victim, but rather than trying to understand or rationalise, we're just listening and there in case there is an emergency. We also heard from Maddie that at one point she had set up a code word with her friend to say, you know, just tell me that you need me to buy a chocolate bar. Having something like that or a way in, if you need an emergency response from somebody else,

can be really useful. But if you, again, or a family or friend, then absolutely go and seek out the advice. There's lots of professional advice available. Anyone could contact the National Stalking Helpline. They can call and ask for advice, something that they could maybe tell their friends or family about so that they know that there is help available.

There's lots of information online about the likely police response as well. So just kind of being open, being supportive, And if possible, you know, helping to collate some of that information for you. So you said that, you know, if you're in a situation, it can be quite difficult for you to even consider kind of keeping a log or thinking about that. But if you're a family or friend, it might be really worth you just saving all of the messages that say, you know, he called me again today or she texts me again today for future reference as well. Thank you. Thank you so much. That's super valuable information and we really appreciate you coming on. All right.

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