Should I Delete That? - Surviving Playboy with Crystal Hefner

Episode Date: February 19, 2024

This week on the pod, Em is joined by the incredible Crystal Hefner. Crystal met Hugh Hefner, who was 60 years her senior, when she was 21 years old. Quickly, she became one of his girlfriends and a few years later went on to marry him. The Playboy Mansion became a location for abuse: physical, financial and emotional. Crystal reveals what really happened, why she married Hef and asks, why did no one stop him?You can follow Crystal on Instagram @crystalhefnerFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

He had the seven girlfriends and it went down to three and he said in the media like, I thinned the herd. And I thought, how do people let him talk like that? Yeah. Don't say anything. Yeah. Hello, and welcome back to Should I Delete That. I'm M. Clark.

And I'm Daisy Grant. Hi, Daisy Grant. I've got a full-time substitute co-host now. I know, I've bloody been promoted. We love it. How you doing? Yeah, I'm good. I'm good.

It's a disgusting day in Wales. I keep trying to just like power on through and be positive about it, but it's not good. It's getting quite bad. Yeah, because you've emigrated. You might not know. She's emigrated. I have. You're a Wales girlie now.

Borodar, everyone. Do know what that means. I'm assuming it's false. Good morning, I think. Love that. Um, do you have anything good, bad or awkward for me? I've got a bunch. Um, what do you want to start with?

Okay, probably the fact that I did the most awkward thing that's ever happened to a human being at any point. I've set feminism back. You've set feminism back? I can never set foot out the house again. And when the patriarchy is upheld till the end of time, it will be all my fault. So because I've got a stupid job, uh, I decided the other day, and you know, the worst part is? The worst part is I didn't even use it.

But I had an hour to shoot and I thought, this needs a leaf blower. this situation calls for a leaf blower sometimes in life it's just calls for a leaf blower I'm going to get a leaf blower I'm going to get a leaf blower Alex called around to find a leaf blower and he found one in

a place about 35 minutes away right that's too far it's way too far I literally don't have enough time like I'm so overwhelmed so busy all the time don't have enough hours in the day child care time is finite I've got to get everything done but fuck it I've committed to the leaf blower

I'm going to go and get it went to go and get the leaf blower took me 35 minutes to get there walked in I was stressed there was an air of chilling in that building. Like, nobody was rushing. Nobody gave a shit. I gave shit. I was there with Fifi, photographer Fifi. We were having,

well, we were rushing, but we were having fun, but we were rushing. Anyway, together we arrived, we walked in. Two ladies in an incredibly male dominated environment. Let's just call the spade a spade, right? There were three men in the waiting room. One man came out holding the leaf

blower in one hand and something else in the other hand. He put both things on the floor. I step forward, this is my item, I'm ready. And one man looks at me, man A, looks at me and he went, have you had your training to use that? Man B, behind me, quick as a flash, went, you can't say that, mate.

I look to man B and I'm like, thank you. And then he continues, and he goes, of course you said her training. You wouldn't ask her that if you were a man. Me and Feefea are like, air punch, air pun, whoa, okay, okay, K. Thank you, man B. Slay, slay, slay, sleigh, slay. right the conversation continues

payment is taken it's time for us to leave we step forward Fifi picks up the leaf blower I pick up what I can only assume is the leaf blower's charger together we leave the room

original man man who works in the shop chases ask me what do you think you're doing I had not picked up the leaf blower charger I picked up man A's piece of rental equipment because clearly I haven't had my leaf blower training

so I didn't know that leaf blowers are operated by petrol and don't need little charges. Oh no. To have insult to injury, my card was declined because I'd got the final three numbers wrong. So I had to go back in in front of man A and man B. I say I, I begged Fifi to go back in on my behalf because I couldn't look man B in the eye

and tell him that I've ruined everything. everything. I've ruined everything. He will never stick up for a woman again and why should he? He probably won't. Yeah. That's... No. He won't. Of course he won't. Because he'll be like, right, well, one time I put my neck on the line for some fucking bimbo. And I just want to say to Man A, I'm like, look, you were wrong. You were, what you did was, what you did was discriminatory. It was prejudiced. And you were making assumptions based solely on my gender, which is deeply problematic. Unfortunately for me, on this one very specific occasion, you happen to be right. But that doesn't mean that you can do it again. So, yeah, that's that. I've ruined,

I've ruined it. I know that if I was the same, I would have done the same thing as you. Of course I would have. Well, he brought both instruments out together and he put them down next to each other. That one was a particularly confusing instance, I'd say. Yes. It's not great. Anyway, I called an Addison Lee Currier to take it back because I couldn't face returning. the next day. And I'll never go again. Never again. I don't care if there are 40 million leaves on my doorstep. Literally, I don't care if I can't leave the house for leaves. I will never rent a leaf blower or any piece of equipment ever again.

Nope. Equipment's done for you. Done. I will hire nothing. I'm going to just stick to renting dresses. Yes, that's what my little girly, that's what my little girly brain desires. Okay, anything awkward? Can you make me feel better? A ploise? Well, I think I could make you feel better, but it might also... It was just really mortifying. I went to yoga the other day. I've been really enjoying going to yoga.

I've been going twice a week. I'm in a new place. So I'm like trying to make new friends and like doing my yoga. And yeah, new friends, you know, really want to impress people. Like not trying to like do yoga because we're all on the mat. The mat is our own space. You know, we're not looking up people. But at this particular moment, we're all practicing Crow.

So my like, my yoga teacher is lovely because she really takes it back to basics. because I don't know anything so it's great and um at this point like we've been going for probably like 45 minutes or something and then we'd all been having a little go at crow and she was going around to everyone individually and then she got to me and she was like oh you just need to you can do it yeah just like lean forward so basically I'm on my hands and my legs are resting on the back of my elbows and I'm leaning up leaning up and then I was suddenly like I can do this I'm doing it I'm like I'm flying I'm in the air I'm flying and then I fell on my face

I fell on my face everyone was looking at me because we've been going for 45 minutes and everyone had their turn at doing Crow so people were watching me I fell directly on my face my tooth cut into my lip because I fell on a

I fell on a block like a and then I immediately burst into tears because I was so embarrassed I'm such a toddler you know when like a baby like gets hurts themselves and it goes

and then they cry like that. That was me. I like, hit my face, bam, pause. And then we wept. And then basically, what made it, add insult to injury, she then basically stopped the whole class to tell us about like why it was, you know, oh, and tried to make me feel better and did a whole thing, like a whole speech about it. And I was like, oh my God, don't move on, move on, move on.

No one look at me. No one look at me. Please, please, please stop, stop. I'm never coming again. But you did go again. I did. You've been today. I've been today, but man, that was... Minus your two front teeth.

Minus my two front teeth. I love that you did that and I love that you went back. I'm so proud of you. You know what? It's kind of cute but all so embarrassing and I feel like you're going to be mortified on my behalf. The next day, like, no, a couple of days later we were doing the same kind of routine again

and it was when I went, it was all different people in the class. Like I hadn't seen these people before. And on every mat, on every mat, there was a cushion laid out that she... You know when you go places and there are signs and it's like a ridiculous sign and you think something must have happened here for them to need to put that sign there

it's like please like I went to a hotel once and there was a pool and there was a sign of the pool and it said please don't go in the pool if you have diarrhea and it's like okay look clearly somebody got in the pool with diarrhea and shut themselves diarrhea poo all over the something's happened here so they had to make the sign and now forever

people will be going to that yoga class somewhere in the middle of Wales going I wonder why there's cushions in here and she said like it's the she's like just for placebo and I was like it's not though is it it's for me who smashed her face

who smashed her face on the ground I'm going to start calling you placebo now your ultimate that's fine rock on baby stunning anything good to swing us back around yes I do have a good maths Australia is starting again

all of my goods and bads and awkwards are just about TV but you know I'm just obsessed. Maths Australia is starting in a couple of weeks. I am a TV girlie. So me and Daisy are going to be doing our podcast again and I can't wait to be doing that. Doing the maths.

Doing the maths. Can't wait to be doing it in like, you know, a few weeks' time. If you're a fan of Daisy Grant and a fan of Marriott at first sight and think you probably would be a fan of other Daisy, then that's the podcast for you. Go and check it out. Thanks, Edm.

That's so nice. Bit of promo. Yeah, so I'm really excited. I'm so excited for that to start again. We need it. Everyone needs Maths Australia. just makes life better. Good for you.

Can I have a good please? Yes, my good is it because I'm an absolute tank. I ran my 5K in under half an hour. Really proud of myself. I'm running faster now when I ever did before I had a baby and I'm really proud of myself for that. That's fucking wicked. Yeah, I just feel like, fucking sleigh.

Go me. Like, I'm feeling so strong. Even though I'm heavy and my body looks different. Like, it's hard. Like, I'm proving to myself that I am stronger than ever and that just feels really empowering. So I'm very proud of myself. I'm going to swing back around to a bad super quickly

because I just feel like I need to be honest about the fact that I'm like because I don't want anyone like anyone watching because I'm running a lot or whatever and just being like oh that looks easy like she's flat it's not it's not easy Daisy you can see me today I was crying just before he started recording because I'm so overwhelmed and I'm just so busy and I feel like I say that all the time and for reasons best known to myself despite the fact I literally have no time I've decided I want to knit a jumper.

So I started knitting a jumper, I know. I started last night. I'm not saying that as a bad thing. I think this knitting is a really, really good idea for you. I agree. Until last night I fucked up and then I was at row 17 and then I had to get back and start again. Listen, unfortunately, that's the way it goes.

I'm sorry, but you know the bonnet I knitted for Arlo, which was too big and will never fit her. It will fit her. The amount of times I had to go, she's 14. amount of times I had to go back and start again. Okay, that makes you feel better. It was unreal. Like, it's so hard.

But I think, I think this is, I think it's the perfect thing for you to be doing. I know you don't have time, but I think that kind of mindfulness is just perfect for you right now. I hope so. Yeah. I really do. I am feeling like something has to give at some point on a serious note, jump or aside. Like, I'm feeling, I don't know what will give and I don't know if ever and I just don't know if this is just motherhood. And you just always feel like you've known.

ever done enough and that there aren't enough hours in the day. Maybe that's just that. Maybe I'll just, I'll settle into it. Is running helping? Like, apart from it, like, having goals in it and stuff, is like that time when you're outside, like, yours and it does it feel good? Yeah, I think the, like, maybe London Marathon might have been a little bit ambitious, um, as a target, but yes, for the individual runs. And Alex often sends me text when I'm running, be like, this is your time. This is the time for you. And that really helps, like, ground me. And it is really important so I'm really loving it like I'm really pleased that I've got that because it does like it is really amazing but obviously it takes a physical toll it does mean

that like the times when I'm not physically with Arlo I'm physically doing something even more tiring so it's just like it does mean that I don't actually get any physical rest like even if I get mental rest you're saying just then like this is your time you're saying it would be quite nice to have a time just to sit on my mum yeah I've forfeited that time and in like in exchange for London Marathon so like sometimes my best friend asked me that yesterday actually she was like do you think it might have been a bit much i was like uh no listen i've i've known you for a while now and i think if you weren't doing london marathon you'd be doing something else just as exhausting there's nothing you'd be doing in replacement that would be calm i think that helps

you know what i mean like you you're a go-getter you're just going to keep doing things and like you know what go you're doing it yeah fuck it yeah you'd be you'd be doing something else anyway that helps that does help. Could I want to shut it. Okay, that helps. Okay. Anything good, anything bad for me just before we get into our interview? I literally think it was just the walk I was just on.

I'm trying to be really optimistic. And you know what? I'm feeling quite good in general. But there was sharp hail hitting me in the face. And my dog was looking at me like, what have you done to me? And he's really upset right now. He's fallen asleep, but he was so upset with me. And you know when you can see the disappointed look in their eye and it's just like, oh,

oh i've done something bad and i felt bad i'm trying to make him happy i was like i don't want to be here either man i'm out of my way am i on the clean but one of us has to shit outside so anyway we have an interview today that i am so excited about i've gone for the first time hand solo which has made me anxious and um awkward but i had girl alex's blessing of course for a very special reason. Crystal Hefner, the widow of infamous playboy mogul,

Hugh Hefner, was for one week and one week only, she was in the UK and she took some time out of her incredibly busy schedule to come to the should I delete that studio to talk to us about her new book. This conversation fascinated me and I adored Crystal

and the book that she's written. I am so excited for you to hear it. Alex will be back next week with some of the interviews that we prepared before she went on Matt leave, but we just had to get this in here because I know that you guys are going to love it as much as I did. So I hope you enjoy it.

Hi, Crystal. Hi. Thank you so much for coming. Thanks for having me. Oh my God, it's a pleasure. I'm so excited. I was just saying before we started recording that I have devoured your book.

I don't think I've ever listened to an audiobook so fast. It is the most incredible story You've told your story in your own words It's gone to number one in America Which is incredible I suspect it'll do the same here And I will encourage all of our listeners to listen to it And I'm sure they will or to read it But I would love to hear in your words

The kind of beginning of your story And the beginning that led you Or how you ended up at Playboy and you were 21 when you I mean that is so young how did that happen because my 21 and your 21 were very different 21 when I was 21 I felt like I was so grown up but now I'm 37 and I look back and I was such a baby yeah I grew up well first in England yeah I lived here until I was about eight I moved to America with my parents lost my accent sadly and then I went to school in San Diego, which is about two hours south of Los Angeles. Yeah. And my dad passed away when I was 12. That was very hard.

And after that, I felt like not a real family anymore, just like the leftover scraps of one. And that was very sad. And I think then I started to just make myself small to fit in. And my mom and I had no money. And it was hard. It was a hard childhood. And I remember as I went into my teenage years, The seeing celebrities and they would be like Pam Anderson, Jenny McCarthy, Carmen Electra.

I'm like, wow, these women are powerful and beautiful and I want to be just like them. So I started, you know, bleaching my hair and trying to achieve that look and got some attention, started doing some modeling things and met a girl modeling. And she asked me if I wanted to submit a photo to go to a party at the Playboy Mansion. Yeah. And that's how it started. I submitted a photo. I was really struck in the book, actually, when you talk about submitting that photo and how you had such a case of imposter syndrome and didn't feel that you would get,

like, that you instantly picked your flaws apart in that image as soon as you'd sent it. And then I kind of, you kind of tell how that insecurity, I guess. I was so insecure. Which is such a contradiction, I suppose. as to how you must have presented yourself, because obviously you are so beautiful and you were accepted immediately when they saw your image. But it seems such a contradiction that you felt in yourself that you weren't good enough and that you wouldn't be accepted. Yeah, I was very insecure. When I went up to the mansion, it was a case of imposter syndrome, like me? How did I slip through

the cracks? And some of the most beautiful women I've ever met are the most insecure people I've ever Yeah. And arriving at the mansion, can you tell us, because like, it's such a cultural phenomenon in the head of so many people. We can picture it and like, I'm of an age where Playboy was everywhere throughout my teen years. And I was kind of shocked when I was reading and it got worse actually, my kind of, it all kind of crumbling down the facade and the glamour and whatever and throughout your story. But initially, when you say you were waiting in a garage with all these women to go up, it's kind of not what you imagine.

No. You couldn't just rock straight up to the Playboy Mansion. You had to go to a parking garage and you parked there and you wait for these shuttle buses. Shuttle. It's so formulaic when you say it like that, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Just like busing in the girls. It's pretty crazy.

And yeah, so I'm in my little French maid outfit, just, you know, all the girls, they're all beautiful and we're all just cold and barely dressed waiting for the shuttle. At one point, they said, oh, go home. Like, the shuttles are all full and the party's full. Like, where do I? Yeah, I'd have to drive two hours back home. So I'm like, I'm just waiting here to see. And sure enough, a shuttle comes up and we get on and go to the Playboy Mansion.

Oh, my God. And when you arrive, Huff comes down, Hugh Hefner comes down, and you are selected by him to join him in his cabana. What was that like at 21? That must have been, if you were feeling out of your depth in the parking garage, how did you feel? I know. When I got into the party, it was incredible. And I was just walking around with my friend. And we saw this wave of people come down.

And my friend said, oh, it must be Hugh Hefner. So we went over to where they were going. And he went into the cabana. And it's all roped off. And so my friend pulled me to where the rope is. And we just stood there. My friend's just like waving, waving. He looks over at her, and then his gaze, like, falls on me.

Yeah. And I did. I look back and like, oh, my gosh. Yeah. And he just like, come here. And whatever half wants, half gets. So his security came over and, you know, unclipped the rope and shuffled me in to sit next to half. And I feel like my soul left my body at that point.

I'm like, oh, my gosh. You know, because you're supposed to be on the outside and they're on the inside. And now you're on the inside. And so I sat next to him. And the first thing, I'm like, oh, what do I say? Yeah. And so he asked me where I lived. I said, oh, I came from San Diego and he asked me what I did.

And I remember thinking, like, oh, my gosh, I'm not working. Like, I'm in school. But thinking back, I probably likes that because I'm younger. So I said I was studying psychology at San Diego State. And he said he studied psychology at University of Illinois. And it kind of went like that. And he was magnetic and charming. Yeah.

I just, I can't imagine. because actually you tell in your story this kind of feeling of displacement that you had throughout your teens and kind of feeling that you weren't, I guess, good enough. And it's so interesting from mentioning before, like the cultural thing, looking at Playboy, you do see it as like,

these are the perfect women. And it was like, I guess you were being given that seal of approval, like, you're perfect. Yeah, yeah. And I guess you have this feeling of feeling like you belong, like Huff puts some, like, worthiness onto me. Yeah. So, yeah.

I mean, he did dictate kind of the standard of beauty for a very, very long time in one way or another with the magazine and with the brand. So. Yeah, I think about that a lot because he had a type. Yeah. So I'm like, did he push that onto the culture? Like, did he hurt things or help things? Yeah. I've been really thinking about it since reading your book and about kind of the, I mean,

The society that held this situation in such high regard is actually nuts, thinking about the age gap. And like, he was given legend status. Yeah, the media just loved him and supported him and put him on such like a big pedestal. And I think back, I'm like, why? Why didn't they question this? Why didn't they see if the girls were happier if it was all? You know, I was a low-hanging fruit.

They were just mean to me. And I was an easy target. Yeah, I really want to talk to you about the media treatment. because I was really disappointed to hear in the book, like your experience. And I'm obviously not surprised because it was a horrific time. But I think what I was really interested about as well is that when you say that you went and sat the good banner for the first time, and it's all of this no questioning thing, right?

He had his girlfriends at the time with twins and they were teenage twins. Yeah, they had just turned 19. Wow. And he was 81. Wow. Yeah. It's so sad. Like they're not doing well now. They just got out of rehab and they're having a hard time. They were very, very young. I feel sorry for them. Yeah. Yeah. So the way that it worked was that he would have numerous girlfriends at one time. So you arrived that evening as a guest and it would work right that you would have guests to the bedroom, but then you would have. would be girlfriends as well. And at the time, you were just a guest first, right? And the twins were a girlfriend. How did you go from being guest to girlfriend? He invited me to stay for the weekend after

the party. And after the weekend, I went back to San Diego. And before I could think of how my life would continue after that experience, he called and left me a voice message asking if I wanted to move in. Wow. So I'm sure, like, I'm going to do this. Like, school will always be there. And I moved into the mansion to bedroom five. It is like incredibly flattering as well as being, you know, with hindsight, it's like this is mad, you're going to go and live with a man who is 81. Yeah, but it's so, it's at that time, like he was so iconic. And I feel when I have had heard of half in Playboy, like he'd always been this

like older figure, I guess. Yeah. I thought he was immortal. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that was, because in our lifetime, I guess he was always old. older. So we never, you know, I guess we never saw him in his heyday in terms of age-wise. Yeah. But he kind of lived like he was in his heyday forever, right? Like, I mean, yeah. It's very strange. It's mad. So you moved into bedroom five. How does that work? Like, moving in.

It's very strange. It's just such a bubble and it's Heff's world. And so he's bedroom one. And as you go down the hall, there's two, three, four. And then round the corner to the offices, there's like five. and six and then offices at the end and like okay I'm down here at this other end of the house and what what do I do to like be closer yeah because I feel like if I'm at the end maybe I could be kicked out easily or something yeah yeah lost in first down so good um so I did think what do I have to do and I just started getting more into what half liked like oh he wants me to like be with him with all these old movies playing and so I just ended up liking all the things he liked, mirroring his self-importance back at him. Yeah.

And started losing myself, I guess. Yeah. And I think, and there was a quote in the book that really struck with me about, was about how your kind of like view of womanhood had very much been submission. Yeah, you say being a woman meant submitting, keeping myself small. And I feel like that's such a tragic sentence in the sense that Playboy felt like it was such female empowerment and it felt like such sexual liberation to an extent in this kind of like it looked so happy and like these women were so confident but you were feeling at that time so

like you were submitting and and it kind of feels obvious now but I guess at the time it wasn't like that at all that the disparity between how you felt and how you must have been perceived is just crazy yeah yeah you definitely have to submit and I was gosh emotionally abused, financially abused, controlled, physically controlled. It's like, he would tell me what to look like, what to wear, how to act. It was... Yeah, it was so strange. Yeah, you talk about how when you first got there, you ate because they cooked amazing food for you.

Yeah, yeah. So I'm like, wow, it's like a restaurant-style kitchen. There's like four chefs. I can order whatever I want at any time. Wow. I'm like, yeah, let's get some, like, yeah. I was such American stuff, like grilled cheese and all those things. Like hamburgers and so I was eating all of that.

And I got up to 134 pounds, which I don't know how many stone that is. Not very many. And yeah, and he like hit me on like the thigh. Like, oh, somebody needs to tone out. Like, what is this? Wow. So I went back down to 115, which I really want to know how many stone that is. Do you make to work it out?

Yes, I would love that. I've got a calculation. I'm like a spoiler. I don't think. it's very many. He wanted us to weigh like 115. Wow. That is eight stone, two pounds. That would be class I'm sure as underweight for your height. That's my, I mean, it again, in a post-me-to world, it does feel kind of obvious to look at the situation and see it for what it is. But at the time, like I say, it doesn't feel, it didn't feel like that could possibly be happening. And it felt

really empowering. But, I mean, the freedom and liberty that you give up, even by moving in, and you had curfew and you had an allowance. Can you explain how the allowance worked? Every Friday, he would give $1,000. And you had to go into his room and ask him for it. And he would have a little key and unlock a cabinet and take out these bills and count like 100, 200. And then he were like, here you go. Like a real show? Yeah. It's like, He gave us some money, but never enough to, like, be able to leave. So it was definitely, definitely financial abuse. Yeah.

As the years went on, I found ways to make my own money. But, yeah, it's hard. It's Playboy and the whole thing is supposed to be a place of freedom and expression. And I felt, you know, very trapped. Yeah. And you were trapped because much later on when you did try to leave, you weren't, I, what was it like, please detain her? Yeah, yeah. So we had gotten in an argument. And the very first one, I stood up for myself.

I said, oh, I'm just going to go to the park and get some fresh air. And as I walk down the back gate, there's a security booth. They can see everything on the cameras. And they probably could see that I was walking down to the back gate. And I'm like, oh, usually they see me and open it. Yeah, oh, she's trying to come out. And I heard Hepa come up on speakerphone. And he said, oh, if Crystal tries to leave, detain her. Wow. The gate didn't open. It's like, oh, I'm actually trapped. So I turned around and went back up to the house. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to, I need to leave.

And then this time I'm going to, or next time I'm going to do it better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, work out a plan to do it. But he did have control of, I mean, your work, because your work was Playboy. He didn't want us to work out outside of. No. And what was it like working as a Playboy model?

Does that, did that feel empowering? Did any part of that kind of make you feel beautiful and like you'd made it? And was there any of the glamour that you kind of thought there'd be? No. And I couldn't really do that either. He didn't let me work playboy jobs. Really? Yeah.

I did one during the day. It was like a golf tournament or something. And it basically is, they hire like two playmates and then, you know, the rest were like girls of golf, they all did it for free. It's just a bunch of pervy guys that all pay a bunch of money to, you know have beautiful girls as are like catty and whatever it was awful yeah like the kind of men that go to those things yeah and you've described the parties that would happen on sundays right and the panic attacks that you started getting yeah after you'd been there for a little while yeah

because it was so fake it's like do men really think that women enjoy like having pillow fights and yeah hula hooping and jumping on the trampoline and pushing each other And you really had to do that. People did it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like the bonnie. That was the vibe. That was the vibe on Sunday.

Oh my God. It must have been exhausting. Like, what is happening? Those places are crazy. And I suppose as well that in that you were ranked with the other girls, you didn't really feel that you could make friends with them, right? If there was always this kind of element. of competition or...

Yeah, you couldn't tell anyone the truth. Yeah, so it's even harder to have a pillow fight with someone that you're not friends. I'm just dragging a bit harder. Pushing one of the trampoline. So you had the twins were primary and you were number five. How did the climbing of the ranks go?

They were in like bedroom three or two and they shared a room together, which is interesting. It is, yeah. And I just got closer to half. They loved to party and drink and smoke and all the things. And I didn't do any of that. And so I just became like this old lady with half.

You know, like what you wanted. Because it's like, and I guess, again, we have the language for it now. And it really feels like there's an element of, and it's really, I'm sure, common in situations of coercive abuse, emotional, abuse and financial. but that you were purposefully trying to get closer to this person who was mistreating you. Were you aware of that? What was the kind of psychology of it at the time or the reasoning at the time?

Do you remember? I just, yeah, I mean, my inner voice would be like, what are you doing? This is weird, like, Kauaiu part of this. But I would just shove it down because, you know, everybody just loved Heft and praised him and his 70 staff members were just all, hey, boss and, you know, Mr. Hefner. And then the media. Yeah. The media just praised him and loved him and always talked about him. And people would pay him millions to do random things. And he was just seen as an American icon. Yeah. Like a global icon. And so I'm like, okay, there must be something wrong with me. Yeah. If I'm not

like that into it or if I'm unhappy like there must be something wrong with me so I need to just try and enjoy this I tried really hard oh my God and it could like because actually what you're describing what happened it's not glamorous at all in and from that first

night you were invited to his bedroom and there were other girls there and it kind of and this would happen would it happen every night that there'd be this many women expected to have sex with him it wasn't every night maybe like once a week by the time I was there.

I don't know if it was different for other people. Yeah. But I do, yeah. I mean, it was very, it's like the same thing every time. Yeah. And it was, yeah, I mean, like, he liked what he liked, right? You had to wear the same clothes every time. Yeah, the same clothes, the same, you know, music's playing,

the same kind of porn he puts on the TV. And after a while, I'm like, this man, like, really has no idea how to please a woman. Which feels like the biggest irony. Yeah, it's like the biggest con of all time. Like, Mr. Sacks. Yeah. And you say at one point, and I'm sorry if you don't want to talk about it, but that he would insist on using baby oil.

Yeah, gross right. And it would cause you all to get infections. Yeah, and that was giving people ovarian cancer eventually if we found out of that Johnson and Johnson's specifics. Wow. Yeah, so. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's awful. Yeah.

And it's like, but there was just no. prioritizing, like, female pleasure, if any of a god, but it doesn't even sound that he enjoyed it that much by the end. It really, yeah, I did think that, like, pretty often, like, is he even enjoying this? I have no idea. Is he just going through some weird motion, like, did this used to be enjoyable for him at some point? Yeah. I have no idea, but thinking back, now that we have terms that we didn't have then, or I didn't have, like, I didn't really know what a narcissist was. Yeah. And now I do, and now it's talked about so much. So I thought, okay, that makes sense. He didn't care how we felt. He didn't care if we were happy as long as he just

gets what he wants. Because he was so narcissistic, he just assumed, oh, that's what everyone else wants to. Yeah. And it's twisted and pretty terrible. And I suppose the girls kept coming, right? So he must. Yeah, they threw themselves in him all the time. And sometimes I'm like, oh, what do you? I'm trying to do something or be with him and the girls are just like, ah. I'm like, what do you want? Do you want to be a playmate or do you want to? So then they would start telling me what they wanted. I'm like, oh, you want to be a girlfriend. Oh, there's no more spot. Sorry. Or like, I don't want to. Oh, my God. You're like a creature. Yeah, I want to be a playmate. Like, okay. Like by that point, I could tell if it was going to be a yes or no just based

on who he chose. Yeah. So I was like, oh, I'll send her in for a test shoot. Like, it's going to be a no, but at least she doesn't have to like sleep with him to find out. Oh, God. So it felt like that feels like you're kind of trying to protect them. Like, you were trying to protect the other girls that were coming out. Yeah. Because you're talking in the book about one of Hugh Heavness employees, Mary, who kind of facilitated a lot of, well, kind of ran the show in terms of logistics. Yeah, she would kick out girls.

She loved it. Yeah. I didn't like her. So, like, Holly, Bridget, they're like, Mary, we love Mary. Mary was awful. Well, okay, I'm kind of pleased you said that because when I was reading it, I was like, this sounds like really dodgy. And I kind of wondered, like, I don't know,

because you can see how a narcissist kind of gets away with it or swept up in it or whatever. And it's like you can kind of see that. But for the people on the outside, you know, the people who are coming into, and I know everybody's just doing their job, but what she was doing was very, um, calculate.

Yeah, yeah. She, she thrived off of that, the mansion. and the drama especially. Yeah. She thrived off of it. So Mary ran. What was her job title?

Do you know? She was Heff's executive secretary. Yeah. Potentially that's her name. But, you know, the girls would go to Mary with all the problems and, you know,

Huff doesn't want to be bothered with any of that. And she loved the drama. She loved, like, pitting the girls against each other. And then she would, you know, she had power to pick and choose people for parties,

for all kinds of things. If she didn't want anyone around, they wouldn't be there. And so people had to kind of kiss up to Mary. And it was gross. Honestly, like, she would do really strange things all the way down to, like, if someone would write Heff, a man and they're, like, send pictures or something, they're kind of a little bit good-looking. Like, Hepf doesn't care about that. But Mary was like, oh, this guy's kind of, so she would keep him on the list and invite her herself to, like, parties and stuff. And I'm like, are they both narcissists? Like, I don't know. But she was a harsh, tough.

lady and she pitted us all against each other. She played favourites and it was very, very hard. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to blame her as a woman because it's annoying that women get blamed for shitty men all the time. So I don't want to be like, God damn it, Mary, but I do feel a little bit like, did you not have any responsibility in a, you know, to protect these women? Did she not feel, but we can't answer that for her. Yeah, I think that she just got sucked in a little too far into the heft train. This is a little too far. I think if she was alive now,

like she would have a hopefully like different perspective. Yeah. Yeah, I would always wonder like, why does she like leave it, leave it here? Like you get to go home. Yeah. Just leave it here.

But she would go home and invite a bunch of the girls like her house to play cards. Oh, yeah. She wants to be. Yeah, right there. Really in. So you became primary girlfriend. And in time, you were.

not quite proposed to, but you, you, you, you, you ended up engaged. How did that happen? He handed me a ring. Mary, actually, she, she said, she said, she said, she brought me into her office and she said, what type of ring do you like or what type of, like, diamond? Yeah. I don't know anything about diamonds. I've never had any money. So, like, square, you know, I thought about, like, maybe I've seen a few and, like, square, they were square shape. So I said, oh, I like square. And then she goes, oh, no, no, no. You like round because when the sun hits it, it sparkles more. Okay. So I'm like, okay, round.

Good idea, Mary. And Huff gave me a ring on Christmas Eve and said, I hope it fits. And it was too big. But I had a ring, and there were film crew and cameras and taking pictures. And I just thought, either I'm leaving or I'm staying here and marrying this. person. And the film crew, because I hadn't realized as well, I don't think it maybe showed in the UK the same, but the show that your life was filmed. I mean, you basically, by arriving at the mansion, you were in a reality show. Yes. And then you ended up in a specific reality show

about your wedding. Yes. Which you were paid how much to do? It was like, I overheard have saying that he was going to get $800,000, and he gave me a paper that was a talent release and then with a $2,500 talent fee. And the whole show was about you. It made me feel totally useless and worthless and not enough. Well, fair enough. And that was the first time that you fought. Yeah. You fought with Hugh. And you left. Yeah. That was, well, that was when you couldn't leave because you were detained. And then you did leave. Yeah. And then you came back. And I guess like this is something that I'm really interested in how the reaction's been for you, because when you read the book, it makes total sense that you went back. But I wonder how people were to you

at that time, because it was like you kind of got out and you had a chance to be out and then you chose to go back again. Yes. And like what was it, what was it that led you to make that choice, but also how was the reaction internally and externally to you doing that? Because it was a big public thing that you had left because you skipped out on your wedding and then went back. Yeah, it was very public. And I, after being away for a year, I was in another toxic relationship, which I talked about in the book. And after that, Mary had called me and said, oh, hath misses you. hasn't been the same. He's not happy here with his two girlfriends. And so things, I had a failed relationship. I had opened a lingerie store that, you know, like, well, I don't even

like lingerie. Why don't have a store? And that failed. And so I thought, okay, maybe my, being at the mansion is my fate. Yeah. Like, maybe that's where I meant to be. And I did have who I, who I felt was the love of my life in high school who passed away. Yeah. I'm like, okay, Greg was my soulmate. And I've already had that in my life. So, you know, maybe the mansion is supposed to be my path. Yeah. And maybe because I walked out and actually left, he might respect me more the second round.

Yeah. So I went back. And this is still at a time you have to remember when this is pre-Me 2. This is when he's still being praised as like the king of everything in America. Yeah. And he could do no wrong by anybody, which is, flows my mind. So I'm like, again, it's the same where it's like, oh, I can be. better or, you know, just quiet down your inner voice and, you know, try and be happier.

Yeah. I was really shocked. You tell a story in the book about a press circuit that you'd done to promote the show, I think, before the wedding. And Chelsea Handler had made a really horrible joke, dig at your expense about the fact that your dad had done. died and and and how your marriage to Hugh Hefner was the result of daddy issues. And that, it's such a horrible thing to hear from a woman to another woman, but it makes so much sense as to your view of yourself at that time and your view of Hugh at that time given as the whole rhetoric around you was so misogynistic. I wonder how you feel now to the people that made those comments and made those jokes and treated you the way that they did.

Do you have any, are you still, because I'm angry for you, but I feel angry now. Back then I felt like, oh, I am really not enough. You know, I am really, I don't fit in anywhere and you just feel completely beaten down. Yeah. And Chelsea Handler, like, should have known better. Yeah. I'm surprised she hasn't got canceled, to be honest, because she's done this to other people that I know.

Yeah. And she's feeding into the toxic misogyny at that time. Yeah. But in ways I did too. Like I was posting social media where it's like bikini and the implants and the and contributing it in ways I didn't realize. Yeah. So I hope that she's grown and learned from it.

Yeah. But it does make you feel very small. Yeah. Of course. And you talk about the surgery that you had when you were. in the mansion as well. And you went in for a nose job and they did liposuction just while you were there.

Yeah, I think it's because they can add it to the Playboy bill. Huff was paying for it. But I'm hard pushed finding any blame for you, you know, in the part you played in the misogynistic cycle. You know, with the hindsight, maybe at the time it was easy. Like you say, the girls there were low-hanging fruit. but it does feel hard now to blame you for perpetuating it

when it was literally being forced on you. You know, the society had this preconception of who you were and you were being made that and moulded that by the environment that you were in. I think it's remarkable that you managed to get out at all and even more so that you've been able to tell the story. But I suppose we're in a completely different landscape now post-Me-2. And I wonder like, when we're jumping around, around a bit, but how you felt when that all happened? And was it that that made you reassess

all of it? Yes. Partly that, yes, because I finally felt validated. I'm like, okay, like, this is not because you brushed it off as like, okay, this is how like men behave or this is, has friends with like hug you too close or just, it, it was awful. And most of the men at the mansion were disgusting. Yeah. And now, like, it made sense. It made me feel validated. Like, these people are just all gross perverts.

They don't know how to respect people. And they don't know how to care about anybody. And it was just, it made me feel so much better when that all came out. It made me feel sorry for everybody, but it also made me feel less alone. Yeah. Yeah. Because, I mean, it's such a unique situation that you've been in. but then in another way, it isn't.

You know, the standards that you were held to were the, you were right in the eye of the storm, but the storm did affect a generation of women and we've kind of all been held to this crazy standard. But I guess the way that you have is just, you know, the pressure on you to look a certain way and behave a certain way. Are you completely liberated now?

Or do you still have this pressure? When I first left, I saw a therapist and, you know, your value at the mansion gets tied to what you look like. And so it got, it was hard to really dig deep and figure that out internally. But my therapist told me, oh, you know, next next thing you do, like make sure it has nothing to do with your looks. Yeah. And, you know, and I'm older now. when I left a mansion, I was 31. But yeah, I flip houses. I'm into real estate and I have properties in Hawaii and California. So everything I do, like I like to add natural elements and

things to homes and filter the water and the air and get all the reclaimed wood. And it's beautiful and it's creative and it's something that has nothing to do with what I look like. And I think that that industry that's like based on looks is very, very hard to. be in. So I admire the women and men that are able to still do it. But it took a toll. Yeah. I mean, to leave the life you'd lived by 31 is huge. And I guess we'd be remiss to not mention the fact that by the end you were caring for Hugh Hefner. You were his carer. And I wonder, did you, by the end, did you love him? Was there a... I don't think I did.

I think it was hard for me to love him fully because I had so much resentment toward him. But in a way, I still wanted to protect him. He wanted to be this person that's seen as larger than life. And I tried to make sure that he was that person until he died. I do think of The Wizard of Oz. Actually, the movie I put on when he, you know, he kind of like lost consciousness.

I couldn't tell if he was. And I put that movie on because it's colorful, at least if he can watch it. He can see it. It's very colorful. But thinking back, I'm like he was the wizard. He was the wizard. He was the wizard of Oz. He was the man behind the curtain.

Yeah. That wanted everyone to think something much grander than what he really was. Yeah. I mean, when you say in the book that by, I don't know what year it was, but your health got so bad. and they found that the mansion itself, and this feels like another horrible metaphor, but was full of black mould.

Yeah. And that feels like, as well, like the facade slipping by the end. And I wonder, I suppose we can't speak to it, but do you think, how do you think Hugh would have reacted, had he been here to see the Me Too movement and see it all be held up to him by a different mirror,

not by the mirrors that he'd put up all around his house. Do you think he would have been able to cope with it, I suppose? I don't think he would have been able to cope well. I think he would still be doing what he was doing, but just more quietly. Yeah. Because it's all he knew. Yeah.

I just can't believe how public it was. And it's like these parties were so glamorous. Yeah. And I've been watching some old. interviews and some media I've done have like pulled some up of heaf speaking about everything and one of them he had the seven girlfriends and it went down to three and he said um in the media like I thinned the herd and I thought how do people let him talk like that and yeah don't say anything yeah it's just like you know people people when someone's abused they say you know to the person

being abused like why didn't you leave why didn't you leave why didn't you leave and why don't you say to the person that's abusing, like, why are you abusing people? Why are you abusing people? Yeah. And has there been a lot of that since, I'm interested actually in the reaction to the book, but have you had people say that to you? Well, if it was so bad, why did you stay? Or have people had the sense not to say that to you? It's been a bit mixed. Yeah. And the people that are rude, I'm just, like, come at me. Do you really, that's so good that you feel that?

Yeah, when I was about to go and pierce the other day, it was mixed when I tell people. Yeah. And I'm like, don't worry, I'm ready for him. I know, I saw an year ago, I was like, go to see Pizzball. And I was like, oh, God, I hope he's next to him. I was very ready. But one of the first ones I did when I got here, he kept asking me, he's like, but why did you stay? And I'm like, oh, you know, I told him, I tried to sleep.

But why did you stay? And as we're speaking, I'm like, I don't think he's even read the book. So in hindsight, I should have said, have you even read the book? Yeah. I'm really pleased that the public reaction generally has not, has kind of afforded you the nuance. Because it is so complicated for, you've been in the most unique situation in the whole wide world. And I guess we could never, nobody could comment as to what they'd have done in your position, except probably the same thing, you know, if we're all striving towards success and to be beautiful

and to feel worthy. And I really felt like that in your book, like that was, and I think a lot of people will be able to connect with that, that you wanted to just feel this sense of belonging. And really, for a beautiful model, there's nowhere more validating than Playboy. That's so true. And I've been getting so many incredible messages. messages from women. Yeah. And that just makes me so happy. And like, if I can help people, like, that just makes me so happy.

And not everyone, you know, went to the Playboy Mansion, but a lot of people have been in bad situations, abusive relationships, financially, abusive relationships, emotionally, physically. And they just have been, it's been like an outpouring of, like, thank yous from people. And it's just made it all worth it. Because your story is. depressingly familiar in so many ways. And it is incredibly unique. But like you say, so many people can feel connected to you and to what you went through. I wonder in terms of, and I'm really pleased

that you've had therapy and it's enables you and empowered you to have this conversation. But in order to kind of make your own validation and make your own, find your own worth and kind of put the people pleasing aside, how has that journey been since finishing all of this? Yeah. I think I finally learned what boundaries were just a few years ago. So good. Yeah. Like, well, I can just say no. Whoa. It's so nice. Yeah. It's when you people please, you get very resentful because you spend all your time doing things for other people. Yeah. You're like a martyr for other people. And it's, it's, it's our. And if, you know, if you're not happy, no one can be happy.

And so just doing things for yourself and doing things that you like and love, it's very important. And if people mistreat you, like, cut them off. Yeah. Like, I've given, yeah, I was in two bad relationships after the mansion. And it's a, it's, I was being manipulated and controlled. Same situation, except this time I'm paying the bills. I'm like, oh, my God. It's going from bad to worse.

But I've learned since then, and now I'm in a happy, healthy relationship. And, yeah, if anything's less than nurturing, then just get rid of it. And I remember watching this video about this guy, he's a narcissist, and he tells people, like, from things from his perspective. And people say, how do we avoid you? It's like, just don't put up with it. As soon as you start, you try not to. And now I have that tool. I didn't before, but now I do.

I can spot red flags, bad people, and it's one of the best things I've learned. I'm so pleased. And you really do feel that in the book. And I think perhaps it's not what you set out to do. Perhaps it was just a way of telling your story. But I think the reason that it's done so well and will continue to do so is because it is such an inspiring story. Because by the end, you know, you say at the end you don't have your happy ending. but it does feel like you found yourself and you've come through it.

And I think that will be such an inspiration to so many people who, like we say, can connect with your story on some level, whether it be through a relationship or through their quest for finding worthiness or finding beauty or the standards that were all held to. And I just, well, I loved it. And I'm so grateful that you came and had this conversation. And I would just love to end by asking, how did you find the confidence to do this?

Because this is probably the bravest thing I can think of. Thank you. And I think for anybody who's listening who's ever felt small, you've done something so big and you felt so small and you've done something so big, how did you get from there to there? And how can anyone listen to the same? I saw a therapist and that was helpful.

With therapy, I started writing a lot. lots of notes and those all turned to stories and that ended up turning into the book. But before then, I started small, I remember starting a date again and a matchmaker. Someone sent me a matchmaker to me and they said, oh, we'll make a profile for you. What do you like? And something simple is that. Like, what do you like? I thought, I don't know.

I don't even know what I like. I spent so much time just liking what other people liked. liking what one person liked and like what do I like something so small and I thought okay I started traveling I really like travel I really like spending time with my dog you know I went to Hawaii I really like Hawaii I ended up buying a farm there I really like being in nature and I really like Disneyland that's so random but you guys I put on my Mickey Mouse sweatshirt and you know so it's like what do you like and how do you show it to the world? And you find yourself that way. And that's a small step you can take, small steps, but they become bigger steps and you become more empowered. And

when you know what you really like and love and do those things, life becomes better. And I think that's a small step it took for me. I love that. And I'm so, so grateful that you had this conversation with us. And I just can't thank you enough. Like it's, it's blown out, Alex and mine that you would come and talk to us and I'm so happy to be here and you're amazing so thank you don't you cry we're going to leave the link to your book in the show notes I have I can I've never recommended a book this highly I just think you guys are going to absolutely love it and Crystal thank you so much thank you you're just the best thank you thank you thank you so much for listening should I delete that is part of the ACAST creator network