Should I Delete That? - Tackling the taboo: time to talk gynae cancers

Episode Date: May 29, 2022

Em's on her Honeymoon and Al's moving house, but there will always be an episode of Should I Delete That? to bless your ears! This week's topic is one particularly close to Em's heart. In partnership with Venus and The Lady Garden Foundation, the girls talk to Jess Brown and Dr John Butler about cancer, specifically gynaecological cancer. They chat about the importance of the doctor patient relationship, knowing your body and why a cancer diagnosis isn't always doom and gloom.Follow Jess @jessbrown.98 & John @drjohnbutlerThis week's episode is sponsored by Venus!#KnowYourPubicFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

As long-time ambassadors for Venus, we're excited that they are sponsoring today's podcast episode. Last year, Venus launched the Venus for pubic hair and skin collection, a range of grooming products specifically designed to help care for the pubic area, whether your hair is there, growing or gone. To mark the launch of this range, Venus started the Free the Vulva campaign, which we were both a part of, with the aim of breaking down the taboo that exists around women talking freely and openly around the pubic area. Now, with a focus on educating women

to hashtag and know your pubic, Venus has partnered with National Women's Health Charity, the Lady Garden Foundation, to further normalise using language such as pubic area and give women the confidence to talk without embarrassment about their gyneological health. Together, Venus and the Lady Garden Foundation want to encourage open conversation around pubic care

and to help women better understand the different gynaecal cancers and their symptoms which are often subtle and can go easily unnoticed. Every year in the UK, more than 21,000 women are diagnosed with gynecological cancers. Yet, according to research from the Lady Garden Foundation, talking about pubic hair and gynaecological health remains taboo for the 41% of women who admit to being too embarrassed to go to the doctor

with a gynecological issue, let alone talk to a friend. To support the partnership, Venus has created a limited edition pack for their pubic hair and skin razor, which you can pick up at Superdrug. For each pack sold, Venus will make a donation to the Lady Garden Foundation helping to fund life-saving research and provide vital resources for those affected by and living with gyneological cancers.

Today's conversation is an important one so get comfortable, grab a cuppa and get ready to know your pubic. Oh my God, why did I post that? I don't know what to do! Should I delete that? Yeah, you should definitely delete that. Hello, Mrs Andrew.

Oh yeah How does it feel? How does it feel? So good, but like more than that Everything's changed. We're with ACAS. This is one of our two weekly episodes I'm on my honeymoon

of a sunburnt nose. You're moving house. It's all picking off. It is, it is. But very importantly, you're on honeymoon and after an amazing wedding. Are you okay? Oh my God, wasn't it the best wedding

in the whole wide world? I know you have to say that because I've asked Jeff put you on the spot, but also just say yes, apart from yours. Joint first with yours. It was amazing. Obviously, that's my good today because it was so, so good.

We had an absolute blast. You know, my good, I know I've got married. Like, I know I'm on my honeymoon. I know I've got so many good, so many blessings to get out, but my good was genuinely sitting at the head table, looking out on all my friends and in the corner of my eye,

I saw Dismol Dave with the biggest fucking smile on his face and I was like oh my god David's smiling Dave's in public he's socialising he's making new friends and he's enjoying it and I was like that that's my good that's your good do you know what he was on form he was having such a good time and I kept being like where is Dave I can't find Dave and he was just like break dancing on the dance floor like I think he did the worm on the dance floor I think oh he's saying half did it i don't think he fully committed um he was just he was just more like the caterpillar um he was having oh we just had the best time honestly like i said i said to you like

dave oh no i think it was georgie someone said like we need to go home now we're going to miss the taxis and i was like we can't go home now it's so early and i looked at my watch it was like quarter to three i was like oh we really do need to go home i had the opposite well not the opposite problem but i remember looking at somebody's watch at like 11 and being like oh my god i'm exhausted what time is it and someone was like it's quarter to 11 and i was like what i thought it was like quarter to one so i was like okay i've only got to do an hour more and then but i mean i obviously wasn't wishing it away my feet my feet is still so i wore those heels all they all night they were big heels huge yeah yeah like six inches platforms platforms of

um but yeah my my feet still and like five days post wedding and my my um what they called The bit under your toes. The balls. The balls in my feet are just, my balls hurt. Alex, my balls really hurt. That's a sign of a good time. Did it just feel like the most surreal day? You know what?

I'm so annoyed with myself for not enjoying the morning more, but I was so anxious. Like, I can't even tell you. You sent me, you were the only person that gave me really, really helpful advice. And you sent me a text on Friday night and you were like, sleep well, but also you probably won't.

Don't beat yourself up. it's fine adrenaline will get you through I was like that it's fabulous practical advice because that's what I needed because obviously I was just lying in bed like and I woke up on the morning of the wedding and I was sleeping I was in a bed of one of my bridesmaid Sarah and I looked round at her and both of us were like

and literally woke up at 7 a.m. and both of us were like oh and that kind of like smithed how I felt all morning like I was gas like obviously it was so fun but I was also so fucking terrifying and I felt, I had to apologise to, like, the gorgeous girl that did my makeup, who was called Katie Daisy.

I'm going to tag on on Instagram because she was like the best makeup parties and the girl Haley, who did my hair. But I was on such shit form and normally I'm like, woo, let's chat. And I was like, don't talk to me. I'm so nervous. But then I tell you what, really took the edge off. I had the most anxious morning. I was absolutely shitting it, couldn't talk to anyone.

And then I was in the car on the way to the church with my dad. And the bridesmaids in front of us, they crashed the car. The car in front with the bridesmaid's meeting got, not badly, they were fine, but they got crashed into by somebody, like, because they couldn't fit down the narrow lane. And it, like, completely took all my nerves away. And I was like, ha, ha, what the fuck? Like, this is a shit show. And then, yeah, and then we got into the church, and then literally I saw, actually,

I saw my friend Caitlin, well, who's got, like, the biggest smile ever when I got in. And she gave me the biggest smile when the church doors first opened. And I was like, okay, everything's fine. I cried the whole way through. Did you? Yeah, yeah, Bliss was like, are you okay? I was like, I just, it's just so nice. I like, booer, like, oh, so sweet.

Oh, yeah, we have booer in the church as our ring bearer, obviously. And the vicar asked me at the rehearsal on Thursday, who's like, is she good? I was like, she is good as gold. You've never met a dog as good as her. She won't make a peep. Obviously, it didn't occur to me that if you put her in a room with like 250 people. Also, with Alex, who she hadn't seen for two days,

because he'd gone, the poor dog was like, what the fuck is happening? Like, my sister goes down the aisle, my mum's doing a reading, me and Alah at the end, and she, and I gave her to Georgie as if it was like some amazing job. I'm like, Georgie, would you please walk Boer down the aisle, you'll just love it? And then she had the worst job in the world because Boer the whole way through. It's like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. And it was like, has anyone here got any reason, like any reason why these two shouldn't be married? And Boer's like, ah, ah!

I was like, shut up, Buer, this isn't your best interest. You want us to be married. This is good. This is commitment. This is the family. This is the family unit. Don't ruin this for us. But it made it though Like it made it And like she was a proper part of it I just thought oh yeah

It was so sweet And lucky did this beautiful reading That made me cry It was just gorgeous Is it Eey or? Yeah so both mine and Alex We're talking about these people Like everybody knows these people

But also this is the first time That Al and I have caught up since the wedding So we've got to chat it out But so my mum did a reading Which is a poem called I Love You by Roy Croft Which is like literally one of my favourite readings ever Alex's mum did a reading from the Bible

which was a chryth... Oh, this is embarrassing. I'm going to say chrysanthia, but I think that's a flower. Chroninthians? No. What's the word? No, that's the flower.

Croninthesat. Okay, I can't remember. Everybody that's ever been to church will be like, I know what she's trying to say and she's a fucking idiot. So that, that was a lovely reading. That. That one.

And then... And then one of my best friends lucky did, yeah, she did the AA Mill and one of the Winnie the Pooh readings and it was like, if you live to be a hundred, I hope to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you and like, and I was

fine, I held it together, I didn't cry when I was going down the aisle, I didn't cry for any of it until she read that and then the last line of that was like, you know, you're braver than you think and you're stronger than you know, and I was like, oh God, my fucking girl. It was so lovely. It was so lovely. Wasn't it? It was so lovely.

Wasn't it? lovely yeah gorgeous I can't believe it's just done the whole thing I know I know it's mad isn't it like so much goes into it and then you're just like one day and the day goes like that and then it's just done it was so surreal

I tell you something we haven't told on Instagram but when we got back we had an amazing reception and it was gorgeous and we had a lovely time I did a speech Alex did a speech my dad did a speech our best men and best woman did a speech and then my brother and my sister got up This actually has to be my good.

My brother and my sister got up and my brother was the MC and they performed Islands in the stream in the style of Brin and Nessa Anna, Gavin and Stacey in the costumes except, like to a two it was perfect.

My brother came out in drag as he was Dolly Parton and my sister vice versa was Kenny Rogers and it was the most incredible thing I have ever seen in my whole life, ever. One of the funniest, funniest thing.

Everyone was dying laughing. I hurt myself. I laughed so hard. And my amazing friend, Jamie, he's an incredible videographer and photographer. And I didn't want to ask him to do the videography for the wedding. So I was like, it's kind of annoying. Like if you're invited to a wedding and then the host is like, so can you work it?

Because it's like, no, I want to enjoy it. Whatever. Anyway, so I didn't ask him. And then when I saw him, I saw him at the reception, he was one of the first people I saw, and he had a camera around his neck. I was like, fucking A! And he, as our wedding present,

he took some amazing black and white photos. I've put some of them on Instagram, and I've tagged him, if anybody wants someone like this work. He's called That Leckier Lad on Instagram. But he brought his camera and just took this photo, and he's got some of me reacting to my brother and sister performing, and my face, it's like my face about to split in half

with how big the smile was. Oh, it was just, wasn't it just unreal? I went to the toilet and yeah your brother and your sister were there like putting these costumes on and I was like oh my god and Cathy was like don't ask

don't ask we'll see you in a bit and I was like oh my god it's absolutely fantastic I didn't know they were going to do it in drag I did ask them and I fully anticipated them both telling me to fuck off because there's no way they were going to perform in front of all these people but they did it and then they did it like

they didn't just do it they just they fucking smashed it Really, really went for it. Like absolute sports. Yeah. Oh, it's just, it's so nice to talk about it with you. It was just the best day. I've never had a day like that.

Wasn't it great? The food was so good. I had like, I don't know if you had it as well, like the lasagna. Yeah. It was like spinach mushroom. Yeah. Gluton free, vegan, spinach mushroom and, I don't say kale? Can I say kale?

Yeah, I think it was kale. It was exquisite. It was in it. It was so good. So good. And I really, I really. I don't know, I always think at a wedding, like how many weddings have I gone to as a vegetarian?

And then I was like, here's a stuffed pepper. I'm like, fuck your stuff pepper. I want more. I'm not doing that to my friends. It was so good. And then the wedding cake was vegan and gluten-free. Oh, it was just fucking epic. Oh, it's just the best night of my whole life ever, best day, but ever.

Me and Alex has kept looking at each other being like, this is the best day of my life. Like, it was so cool. I'm so glad. I'm so, so, so glad. I knew it would be, but. yeah it's it I don't know I feel like that's such a lot of pressure to be like it's going to be the best day of your life but actually but it is isn't it it it really is it's just like everyone there that's what I had to remember in the morning that's people kept saying to me because I was so anxious in the morning and and I built these irrational fears like I can't tell you the irrationality of these fears the first one being you've Alex's a church of Ireland so I don't know how all these services go but in our service we had to kneel down in front of the vicar and I when we did it in the so I just got this thing in my head.

I was like, oh my God, I'm going to kneel down, and then I'm going to stand back up again, and then, because I've got massive heels on, and my dress had, like, a lot of layers. I was like, I'm going to step on the back of my dress, and I'm just going to rip the whole thing. And I built this up my head, I was like, it's the kneel. And I was making, I was practicing the kneel,

and I was, oh, honestly, I was so scared. So I had the, the, the, the kneel was just terrifying. And then the other thing was that I was driving that car. The car that we left the church in was in 1966, Mustangs my favorite car has been for as long as I've been alive I've been obsessed with that car and it was so special to me to get to drive my favorite car ever it was so special to me that Alex was like happy to let me drive it despite the fact that there's all those men out there that would think that was like a direct like emasculation or whatever and he was like fuck it I'm not getting

up that hill that's on you like when we got out of the church I looked at the car and I was like babe I can't because I hadn't had a practice I was in six inch heels I had that long dress on I can't I can't and he looked to me and he was like baby but I'm not doing that. I was like, fuck, I've got to do it. And I was,

because basically the church was on the biggest steep, well, you saw it, it was on a really, really, really steep hill. And it was a 66 Mustang,

and I was like, in these huge hills with this massive dress with near enough, with over 300 people watching me, I was like, this is going to be, all I kept thinking is

I'm going to start going up and then I'm not going to be able to hill start, and then I'm going to run over all my guests. I'm going to roll back and I'm going to crush them all and there'll be a massacre outside the church

and I'm going to have killed I killed everybody that I love. And that was the irrational thing. I was literally, the morning I was like, I'm going to kill them, it's going to be my grandfather's daughter, I'm going to kill them, or I'm going to crush them, it's going to be the last year. Um, and I wish...

That is a rational concern because that hill was so steep. And you were in those shoes. In those shoes. I know. I can't wait for the footage of that. Yeah. Well, I mean... It sounds like it's not an easy car to drive.

No, I can't wait for the footage of that in the videos because I haven't really got any of that yet and I'm going to show the world what I did. because it was fucking inspiring. Honestly, I want women everywhere to look at that. Actually, I want men everywhere to look at that and shut out that trope about female drivers because I fucking smash that.

Oh my God, I would have actually shout myself. I couldn't do that on a non-slope in a normal car that I drove all the time in trainers, like no way. Never mind. Oh, my God. Well, I got in the car and I was like, I need to take these heels off, but I was shaking so much that I couldn't undo my strap and everyone was looking.

and a few of my friends were right by the door and they were like, fuck off, are you driving it? And I was like, yeah, and they were like, go on, girl. And I was like, well, I can't very well stop and take my shoes off now, can I? So I just, I just had to go for it and just fucking fingers crossed. And I was literally just like, ugh.

But I did it. I did it, I did it. So that, but, but that was my rational fit and I just wish somebody, well, actually a lot of people did it in the morning. It's the only thought that soothed me was when people said, you're going to, like, this is the best day

your life like this is the best day of your life don't ruin don't not even don't ruin it just remember that all these anxieties you're having this is the best so kind of whatever every time i had i thought that was like okay okay and then two seconds later it came back again and i was so late i was late to the church because we were trying to strap my fucking tits up and i lost my amazing tip tape and we had to use my sister's cheap shit tip tape and we put them and i'm so sweaty and they just kept and the videographers were trying to get you know like all this like glamorous are shots of like the bride putting on her wedding dress like so ethereal and it's me and i literally every time and i was and sarah had my um one of my friends had had had to sew i was trying to wear these

like spanks basically i was on my period for the wedding that's the nashire but you're getting it anywhere i don't want to give me shit for wearing shape where i can do what i want um but i was trying to wear these like spanks on the bottom and i was trying to basically the back of my dress was really low so sarah had to sew my spanks down so that you couldn't see them and so i was in these like stupid sewn spanks that were nude and I was on my period and I was like I need to change my tampon and I was running around with these stupid nipple covers on and this like

tit-toe was peeling and that they were trying to get these like have you got like a wedding scent like stunning like trying to take like the beautiful white dress and like slowly zip it up and there I am just like sweating and bleeding with my fucking nipple covers like falling off and I was like there she is

that's the branding I hope they got some real BTS because that's what I want to say But I kept saying it. I was like, share this shit. You might as well. Like, I'm a mess and we know it. And they were like, they won't.

They're way too nice. It's not good for their brand that that's what they're dealing with. They're like, ewes. Please hire us. Look what we create. Yeah, exactly. She's gross. And then, but that was all my good.

All my good. And then I'm just going to say my bad. And then I'm going to shut up about the wedding because my bad, no, my awkward. No, we love it. My awkward has also come from the wedding, Alex, because it's something that's occurred to me. since I've been on my honeymoon and I can't stop thinking about it. So I have to say that, I didn't realise it at the time.

My Alex was wearing a microphone. My Alex was wearing a microphone in the church because the videographers want to hear the vicar and us doing our vows and all that shit, right? That's all lovely, that's great. They're going to have some nice audio of us saying, like, I will and whatever else we say, like in richer

and poorer and sickness and health, all that lovely shit, right? I'll tell you what they're also going to have. I'll tell you what that might will also have picked up on. Go on. And did those feet in ancient drives. It'll just be me and Alex

and the fake are all singing really badly and there'll be nothing else because that drop in microphone will be. You please get that audio for us. We need to play it on the podcast. I honestly, I'm dying. Every time I think about it I'm like, fuck, that's the worst thing in the world.

And I'm making, oh, yeah, oh. I mean, because Alex can sing, can't he? He's a really good singer. Yeah, he's a really good singer. He was like a professional singer. And the vicar's the vicar probably can hold a tune by now, you know? And then there's me. And then there's you.

I can't wait. And I didn't know the words. I didn't, we did Jerusalem, mostly to annoy Alex's Irish friends, to be honest. But then, um, but we also did. And love divine, because I thought I knew it. I was like, oh, yeah, because I don't know many hymns. I'm not a massive churchgoer. And when I was looking at the thing, I was like, love to.

And Alex was like, oh, it's a banger. I was like, okay, grand, you know it, I know it, that'll be grand, that'll be fine, no worries. And then I started singing it. I was like, I've never heard this song in my life. So I was like totally freestyling. Like, I was like, when the hymns sometimes, like, they enunciate the weird bits.

And yeah, so that's going to be the worst thing that anybody's ever heard. I'm so excited to hear that. I'm so excited to hear that. I'm going to ask the video with us for it and just ruin my own life. Please do. And we need to play a snippet on the podcast. Please it will make my life.

Okay, I'll ask. I'll ask, I'll ask, I'll ask. Yeah, ask, ask. Do you have a bad? I do have a bad. And you know what? I knew I was like, I'm going to have to scrape the barrel for my bad.

And you know what? You don't even have to take this bad. It's not necessarily bad because everything in my life is so good married to the best person I've ever met had an absolute fucking gas time with all my friends best wedding best day on cloud nine one tiny tiny thing um so on the way on the way here this is because when you were like we don't need to do this recording if you want like we don't have to do it I was like oh we have to do it there's something I have to tell you so to get to where we are it was

two flights it was like two flights and a boat journey um which is grand Woff. A lot of traveling. A lot of traveling. Worth it, 100% absolutely fine. But we were pooped. We were absolutely wrecked. Like, we're so tired from the wedding. And then on the Sunday after the wedding, all the Irish stayed. And they literally stayed the night. And we just got just drunk again on this fight. After you guys left on Sunday. Yeah, yeah. We just plowed through. We went to the takeout. They all had like Chinese. We had chips. Like we just got absolutely shit faced again. Like sat with all our Irish friends. They all canceled their flight. Stayed for another day. It was so fun. I know chaos. But Monday. Just like, whoa. Like, we weren't feeling like stunning. What is happening? So we flew to Dubai and we got a connecting flight and then we had to get a boat from the main island where we landed to the next place.

And we were on the boat and everything's slightly except the only problem was every time Alex and I fell asleep, like every time we sat down, we went like that and we were asleep. Like it just happened so quickly. Like whatever mode of transport we were on, we just fell asleep. And it was, I didn't realize, but the crossing we were on was actually pretty rough. And when I woke up, and this shouldn't be my bad,

it should be the chick next to me, it's bad. But when I woke up, the woman next to me, in her sleep, had vomited all down herself, like, whilst she was also asleep. So there was this lady, bless her, and then there was me, and then there was out, and me and Alex both woke up, and there was like, all these people and loads of wet wipes and, like, sick everywhere. We were like, oh, my God. Did she wake up? She did, yeah, bless her. And her friend was, like, trying to wipe it off her. head and it was all over everywhere and oh it was so bad oh my god that's so bad bless her

bless her absolute see but i don't understand how you could do it in your sleep i know i thought we'd had a big weekend with the wedding but she must have because like it was huge surely it wakes you up being sick i think that is probably what woke her up like i'd say the nausea wakes you up doesn't it and then you're like oh i'm going to be sick i'm going to be sick but wow Oh, bless her. Bless her. So, you know what? It's not like the worst bad,

because I've had the best week of my life. Yeah, yeah. I was just, it was like, this isn't great. But I'll tell you what, like, swung me back around dead quick was I met a podcast listener on that crossing of all places

in the middle of the Indian Ocean. Yeah, I was like, oh, my God. And she was lovely. So, you know. Oh, that's really nice. That's so sweet. Yeah, swings aroundabouts. We've talked about me for like the whole time.

I want your pads. I want you're awkward. I want the lot. My everything, so I'm keeping my bad light this week. And I'm not, it's not from your wedding because I don't have any baths from your wedding at all. I just had the most fantastic time. So my bad is from the weekend before. You know, I went to Rhodes, my friend's wedding. Yeah.

And we flew back on the Sunday and we didn't feel very good. Like the wedding was the day before and it was obviously. late and we just didn't feel great it wasn't a good time and we were flying Ryanair which is fine like people really complain about Ryanair but I just I actually quite like it like I just think it just gets you there and you know it's no frills I like that um however you are very close to the people that you're sitting next to aren't you very very very close and the the little tables the tray tables now are tiny and they don't block out the view of the person's next to his feet, okay? So the man sitting next to me, right? I was on the aisle, he was in the

middle, the man sitting next to me, took his shoes off, and he had the most, like, truly the worst feet I've ever seen, which is fine. I could have, I could have forgotten about them. They were, but I could see them. There was no hiding there. There was just nothing I could do, but he wiggled them, like, all flight, like he just kept wiggling. Maybe he had something wrong with them. just ruin it. I was just like, I was like, uh, I was like, uh, it'll be sick. So disgusting. And also I kept falling, right, I kept falling asleep because I was so tired. But I don't know, when you're on a plane and your anxieties are like a little bit high, I kept waking up like

in a fright. So I'd wake up like, I'd be fast asleep and then be like, ah, like this. And that poor man, I must have done it about five times. And every time I did it, he got the shock of his life and I was like I'm so sorry I'm so sorry I was like I can't fall asleep again because I can't do that again and then I just fucking fall asleep and do it all over again be like wake up like this I'm so sorry mate but also I have to you're subjecting me to your toes off light so whatever even Stevens so that's my bad was it Alex because Alex is absolutely like gnarly little trotters bless him does he have you never seen Alex's feet

I imagine him having a nice, like, a nice, like, pedicured set of tutsies. He does. I'm not using that word again. That's disgusting. He does. He does go for pedicures. Him and my sister have a rolling date, a month, a monthly date to have their pedicured. Yeah, both of them got funny.

That's really cute. My sister had a really bad accident when she was six and she sort of lost nearly half of her foot. So she's got a funky looking foot. And then Alex had two operations, one on each. big toe and so that he's got funky looking feet. So they're like the funky feet club and they just go for like their little little manicures but yeah, a pedicose

but when I first met Alex he was like a socks on the beach lad because he was self-conscious about his feet. He's come on a long way. Really? So you know what? I'm team no foot shaming. That's my stance on this. We need to celebrate all feet.

Given what I do, I probably should be the same but I really just don't like them. I just don't like them. I've been horrible about Alex's feet. If they touched me in bed, I'm like, ugh. No, but they're looking, they are actually looking stunning. I'll see if I can find a photo from like back in the heyday before the pedicure date started. Please do. Because they are now looking, I'm going to say normal. Like, I'm going to say now, you'd look at them and you wouldn't be like, okay. But yeah, there was a time. They've, they've been to a lot. We've been to her a lot. Yeah. Okay. I want to see them. I want

to see before and after. You know what? I've got lovely feet and it was commented on a you too many times at my own wedding. Oh, you have got nice feet. I know. And you know what? Normally, when I do all my running, I normally like, I on average,

I once lost seven toenails at one go. So I very rarely, yeah, I very rarely have all my toenails. And right now, I've got a full set. You want to see a full house over here. Woo! Are they nice? There you go.

You could do only fans. Only feet. Yeah, I know. Only feet. We'll see how this goes, but I'm keeping it in my back pocket. If a podcast goes tits up. always good to have a plan B.

And if the fridge, well, the plan B is fridge magnet. So if that goes tits up too. People want the fridge magnets. I don't want to talk about it. I got DMs. And you know, everyone's like, I know you're busy with your wedding. But there's fridge magnet shit. I'm like, I fucking know.

You know what I bought today in the gift shop? Fridge magnet. You know why? People fucking love fridge magnets. Alex, it's happening. Buckle up. Get used to it. Don't be a dick about this.

Everybody wants the fridge magnets. Just because you don't use your fridge magnets. Just because you don't use your fridge magnets. Exactly. Exactly. That's why. It's an absolute no. But if we were to ever consider it, it would have to be like, you get one, I get one. So I can balance out your affirmations with something more uninspirationer. Alex, fine. If we do the, if we do the fridge magnets, we'll do a doormat that says die, fuck off, cry, hate hate. Okay? Live love's answer to door. We're going to have die cry hate on a door mat if I get my positive fucking fridge magnets to give everybody a smile in the morning. Yeah? You're going to be the real smile in the morning. Yeah? You're going to be the real. that nobody goes to our listeners houses anymore because they all have these dormats and everyone will be like, fucking hell,

that's a weird house. And we'll like sell out of the fridge magnets and we'll have like di-hydrats. Di-cry hate. Yeah. He's like, who the hell's buying that? Anyway.

Get on board out. This is where we make the millions. I'm just wondering how we're friends. But okay. Oh, okay. What's your all good? Hit me up. Hit me up.

Tell me what's all good? Apart from the fact that you're about to go into business this is something that you loathe. Yeah, apart from that. My awkward is from your wedding. What did you do? So when we went into the church, when we went into the church,

I saw Ashley, Ashley James, who's Ashley, Wee's James on Instagram, who's brilliant. And I've never met her partner before, Tommy, but I've seen him loads on Instagram and obviously, like, she talks about him, Tommy, Tommy, Tommy. So I know, I walk in and I'm like, oh my God, there's Ashley and Tommy.

And I went up to him, And I said, hi, I'm Tommy. I was like, I'm so I said, hi, I'm Tommy. And I was like, oh no, I'm not Tommy, you're Tommy. Sorry, I'm Alex, you're Tommy. Nice to meet you. I'm so sorry. I know you from Instagram.

I know this is weird and Dave was just like eyes rolling back in his head. Like, what the fuck are you doing? What the fuck are you doing? You all just got too much for me. I know. He's so nice as well, isn't he? He's, oh, he was lovely about it. But like I said to him later, like I'm, I,

I'm so embarrassed that I did that. I just walked up to him and said, hi, I'm Tommy. Like, she's so embarrassing. But yeah, he was, he was very, very sweet about it. And I just, I hope we can, I hope we can put it to bed so that we can move forward. You know what? That's a benefit of doing a wedding in a church. It's like, there tends to be an open grave or two.

So when people have little faux piles like that, we can just sort of, like, pull them out. I did nearly die, though, because it just felt humiliating. I was just like, how does that even come out? but Ashley was pleased because it evened us out because when we went to an event, Dave and I went to an event a couple weeks ago and Ash walked in, Dave was by himself, Ash walked in and started waving at Dave

because she recognised him from my Instagram and Dave obviously has never met her, so he was like, oh, she was like that girl's waving. Who is that beautiful woman waving at me? Yeah, she must be waving at someone behind me so he was just like trying not to look and then he was like, oh God, she's getting closer and she's still waving.

And he said it was like right up to his face and then suddenly he was like, this has gone too far for like it to be anyone but me and he was like, hi? She's like, oh shit, sorry, I just know you off Instagram. I hate her nose. I hate meeting people. I just make me, I just squirm.

I just, I just want to face the wall until I'm your best friend. You know what I mean? Well, do you know what? That's another thing. Like yesterday, or the day before, a girl was hosting an event, an influencer called Katie Sterino who's fantastic, love her.

And I just walked in, like I've been following her on Instagram for ages. So I was like, oh my God, hi Katie. Just like went up and gave her a big hug. And we were chatting and then someone else walked in and was like, hi Katie, are you hugging? And she was like, no, no, no, I'm actually, it's no touch. I'm like, I'm not touching.

So I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. Oh, no. I literally walked her to and forced her into like a bear hug because I was like, I'm so sorry. So I've learned now that I think the best way is to ask people, are we hugging? Oh, God. I'm giving non-conclusive.

consensual hugs all over the place I give them to everybody. I know, I know, I know, same, same. But apparently we have to ask consent now so, at least now we know. Yeah. I'm going to have to write that down. I'll tell you what we need to do.

We need to put them on a magnet. I never knew you're going to fucking say that. Always ask consent for next. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Al, you know, why are you dismissing important issues? We could tackle some serious shit with these magnets. We really could.

We really could. Good. We're really good. We made, are you hearing this guy? She's, she's asked for the ladder to be put down. She's climbing.

She's coming. She's getting out of the water. She's drying off. She's going to take a seat there on the back deck. I'm just doing what I can to make you shut up about it. Okay, well, I know loads about magnets. So if you ever, you've got a question,

you just hit me up. I just love magnet. If you eat one, if you eat half of one and then you get the magnet on the other side, it can go through. I used to have a really strong magnet when I was little, and I put it on one side of my hand, and then it would connect to the side of my hand.

that's not just not magnets that's quite wild but I love you like ask me anything and you'll be like oh magnets were invented in 1995 no they were invented before that

I'd say magnets have probably been kicking them out of course they were I'd say they've been around for a fair while now I'd say they'd probably use them to like okay okay take a guess

right take a guess and I'm going to Google it I'm going to say the magnets were invented I'm going to say ages ago because to be honest they weren't invented they've just existed

so they were probably discovered because like copper is just magnetic isn't it so they didn't like invent magnetism your face is looking surprised okay so i'm going to say they discovered it in like 1910 not quite so the history of magnetism dates back to the 600 decent age so just just a few years before 1910 Oh no. Oh no. Oh, no. Oh, this is what I meant. Oh, no. Okay. So I think the Englishman William Gilbert in 1540 was the first to investigate the phenomenon of magnetism systematically using scientific... What the fuck does that mean? Jesus. Yeah, I know what that means. Like, he was recognising it's a pattern, so he was probably experimenting with it, like, copper and copper and, like, the other...

the other mac like fridges and magnets basically whatever they're made of well there we go don't know what fridge is made of anyway we've learned a bunch i think it's really good that we learn a lot about the industry that we're gonna let's baldose let's let's wrap this up before uh because i mean before we start to lose everyone that subscribes to our podcast we're not losing them they're going to come in their fucking droves for these magnets watch this face um so oh this is the first episode in the new format it is It is. Oh my God, it is. We are, oh, you, of course. This is one of two podcasts this week, because you're getting two. How exciting, right? Everyone isn't that, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to let tumble weird fly.

I know. No, it is exciting. It is exciting. But we've got this episode here with this amazing interview now. And then, on Thursday, we will see you for the bit that normally arrives at the end of the episode, which is the, is it just me? We will tackle your emails. we will, I've actually got my own, is it just me this time? But we've got, or if it just means from you guys, and we've got our embarrassing stories

and we will see you basically for our bumper episode on Thursday. So now we are going back in time a few weeks pre-em's wedding and pre-her honeymoon to a pre-recorded episode that really hope that you're going to learn a lot from, we certainly did, and it's a really important one,

so I hope you enjoy. Okay, we're talking about something that I love to talk about today. Pugh! Peeves! Hey! Pusey gets it. Bulva! Vagina! This is it.

Stigma is out the window for today's episode. I'm really excited. So, any excuse to talk about vagina? And I'm happy. But today is an episode that's incredibly close to my heart. And I'm really proud that we get to work with doctors and with patients and with charities and brands who are willing to have this conversation. with us and I'm really, really excited. Today we talk to the amazing Dr. John Butler and

Avarian cancer patient, Jess Brown. We talked to them about Jess's treatment, about ovarian cancer for all the gynaological cancers, about symptoms, diagnoses, what the future looks like. It's a really empowering and amazing episode. But before we get into it, we want to just have a little bit of a conversation about why this is so important. And I really wanted to do a quiz for Al about phaginological cancer so I'm right

yeah here we go this is fun okay everybody's learning okay it's this is a health class actually I had a really good thing the other day where someone said you know we always talk about like

oh you need a better sexual education and it's like this isn't this isn't sexual education this is health education pubic areas gyneological health is health not women's issues or shame or sex it's you know

a vagina doesn't have to be sexual everybody were controversial opinion um anyway did you know Alex hit me there were five types of gyneological cancer yes you're gonna you're gonna ask me to bloody name them I don't ask you to name them all and I'm gonna ask our listeners at home to pause this right now please and see if you can name all five types of got the gynautical cancers okay you're up okay I'm gonna start from the bottom vulva no no no yeah vulva starting from the bottom yeah that's vulva going up vagina Stunning. Sturvex.

Stunning. Avarian. I don't know what the fifth one is. Hang on, let me just think. Phalopian? No. Am I missing? You're missing a massive.

I'm going to say arguably the biggest bit. Oh, shit, okay. Oh, womb. Yeah. Womb cancer. And there's a lot of research that says that the first time most people hear these cancer names is when they're being diagnosed with them, right?

which is just like terrifying. On a personal level, like this is something close for me because my granny had ovarian cancer. And perhaps, you know, I mean, I was obviously very young so we don't, you know, you don't massively talk about big scary things and particularly not death with children particularly. But it's always struck me how much the stigma is around these types of cancers. And it's in my work over the last few years really like trying to raise awareness

this for gynaological health, you do realize how massive this stigma still is. And I think to myself, like, in a personal capacity, how awkward I am about like, even your smear and stuff and like that whole thing of like, can I ask a question now? I've been thinking about the slodes, right? Why is it? But you know when you go through a smear desk? Yeah. And you walk into the doctor's room and they're like, I'll just leave you for a moment. Well, you take your trousers down and you take your trousers down and then you take your pants off and you put your pants in your shoes or something random because where else you're supposed to put them you know what I mean and then you lie there and then they say like are you ready and you kind of lie there and then

they come back in and I'm like why did they leave the room they're about to put a second plastic tube up my fanny it doesn't get more intimate no but they leave for that bit and I'm like make it makes sense there must be a reason there must be a reason I there's nothing I don't think there's anything more embarrassing for no reason than bending over naked like with your trousers around your ankles oh oh okay how are you having your smear test because you do not need to bend over um no no i mean like when you you take your trousers off and you've got like bent and it's just like butt cheeks in the air like a couple of boiled eggs but i just wanted to ask you about you what smear's my smear's my smear's yeah do you go for smear so you're regular with your smear's i do i do it's every

two years isn't every three years after you're 25 and people are going to ask why you can't have it before you're 25 and should we be having them particularly given the fact that you know young young women can get cancer as we hear from today with jess but there's a lot of reasons for that and I would recommend Googling them because I can't say them with confidence but there is a lot of reasons. It's not like an oversight. There's a deliberate reason why they wait

until you're after 25. So I must have had 25, 25, 28, 2031. I've had three and coming up to my fourth. I cannot stress like how easy I've found literally all of them. Yeah. To the point where I've been like, is that it? Are you joking?

I was so scared for my first one. Because obviously I'd never had, and most people won't have had an internal, like anything internal, from a doctor or in a medical setting so I was like absolutely bricking it but it was literally so easy I was like is that it done out of there

my sister has a bit of a couple of my sisters have a bit of a harder time because they've got twisted cervixes but there are like so many instruments that you can use now to like help yeah Dr John talks about that in this episode about the options that you have as a patient when you go in for your smear so

like hear it from a doctor not from us in a couple of minutes yeah but like those different sizes a speculum. I didn't, I didn't even know that. I just can't say enough how, like, what a great experience might have been. I mean, I haven't been like, any action for out of good actions. She's like, yeah, it's great. Yeah, whined and dined by the nurse. But like for anyone, I don't know if we'll have people listening who might not have gone for one yet, possibly, probably. But like, it is, my sisters were terrified, absolutely terrified. But

the nurse does not give a damn. He or she has been in. has done this like thousands of times they don't care who you are what you are and your vagina looks like they don't give a dab they're in they're out

they're thinking about what they're having for dinner that night so don't even think about stuff like that just like a one night stand at uni in and out thing more one

one dinner thank you mum get out you're done can I ask if you've ever been self-conscious about your vagina about your vulva about any of your bits

where you like one of those just like woo I don't think I have lips to the wind no lips No, I don't think I have actually I have. Have you? Oh my God. I actually think a really big part of this was the fact that we

like I didn't see any vagina, I've done it again, any vulva's actually I'm just going to give an anatomical lesson here and this might sound stupid but I didn't know this so you might not know this either. The vagina is the inside bit. The vulva is the outside bit and I always think I'm saying Volvo. But I'd never seen like other volvers like I, you know, know, I wasn't like an exhibitionist at school. None of my friends were. You know what it's like, you're so embarrassed and like, you're growing little pubs and stuff. And you just hadn't seen any to know what mine looked like in relation to that.

And something that's like been really cool. I remember a photographer called Laura Dobbs did, like a photo of like a hundred volvers. That was really empowering us. Oh my God, look. Like they all look so different, but I had no idea. And like, I think the only exposure I'd had was like that 1980s sex ed video of like that that woman with the massive bush having a baby and I was like well that surely is what it looks like all the time because there's like a human head sticking out of it and then the rest of it

I suppose must have been like porn or I don't know I'm not that I was really watching porn but you know what I mean like when I think about it I don't know I just and I wasn't really looking at my own that much I just I just felt this like inherent shame around it yeah yeah I know what you mean and it's definitely got less now as I've got older and I'm just like oh please like nobody gives a shit you know like everybody's got bits and whatever and it's absolutely fine, but a really big part of that for me has been like reclaiming the word, like not calling it like my Twinkie or like, like, my Ferry or like even my Foof, yeah, which I always, I always called it my fief and I'm like, no, it's my fucking vagina, like, own it.

And I always, I always found it was so weird, right? Either we talk about it in this really like infantilized way, like this really like childish way. Like, oh, it's like my Twinkie and like, my little fairy and like all this like, ugh. Or it's talking about it in a really, like, infantilized way. like almost violent sexual way like a gash or like beef curtains or like pussy's kind of got connotations it's either spoken about by men in this kind of almost like obscene and sexualized way or it's spoken about in this like infantilized way and there's nowhere in that that allows women to just have like matter of fact autonomy over

this body part yeah just that's so true actually it's really yeah really so true so of course we're awkward about it because it doesn't ever feel like it's ours it feels like it's something that we have to be ashamed of and then whisper about. Whereas I'll tell you something out. Could you? And I'm actually going to set this as a challenge and I want this on the Instagram. Oh, God.

Can you draw a revolver? Um, I think so. I'm going to give it a go. Because you can draw a dick, like bitch, bath, boss. And on every desk and school, every locker, every wall, there's always a dick. Everyone draws dicks. And it's like, it's so much more commonplace.

And I know that men have their own stigma and their own shame and their own whatever. But really, like, it's no wonder we can't even say, the work. We can't even, we don't even know what it looks like. There was that video that has gone viral on TikTok and it's basically stopping men on the street and asking them like, can you point out the clit?

I played a really fun game. I paid pin the clit on the Volvo once and it was like, yeah, it's a really good game. I mean, it's preposterous with the results of preposterous, honestly. They're pointing to all sorts. The, the, the, the, people that go from where the Wii comes out.

I was going to say, yeah. You know, I don't even know with any confidence where the Wii comes out. I mean, this all ties in to like the female pleasure shit that we've talked about so much like I bet so many people don't I didn't know this

you know you click it goes internally it's the size of a Coke can is oh whoa what a coke can Google it it's in Laura Bates's book Laura Bates guest from a couple of weeks ago yeah it's in her book

Girl Up and I remember reading it on the tube and I was literally looking at it and I was like holy fucking shit see there's so much to learn there is so much to learn but we don't talk about any of it We didn't talk about, like, female pleasure. We didn't talk about female health.

We just don't talk about that bit. And it's always like, I don't know, what did you call it when you're growing? Because my mom always called it my front bottom. I was just about to say front bomb. That's what we called it. Front bomb, back, bum. Yeah, my mom was always like your front bottom. Your front bottom.

And I tell you what, I remember bruising. Oh, God, so embarrassing. When I was about, oh, this is so embarrassing. When I was about, I don't know, seven, maybe. I remember playing at the park. And I, like, you know, there's like firemen poles. So you climbed to top of the climbing frame and then it's like a fireman's foot

and I grabbed it with my hand swung and I just went like that and it was like Fanny first and I hit the bar and I was like with my brother and I was like oh my god and obviously we talk about like being white in the balls

and my mum was always never hit your brother in the balls you know what I'm like I know that's going to happen and I was like Jesus Jesus I am I okay am I going to die and it was so beautiful and I went to the Lou that night and it was black oh my God

I would bruised it And I was so embarrassed, even at that age, to be like, my vault was bruised, which if I'd done that any other body part, I just, you know, I was, I was, there's no way that that would have been embarrassing. You'd be milking it for all that's worth, wouldn't you? Yeah, I'd probably blame my brother. Look at my brother did. But, you know, as it was, I remember sitting in such shame and I didn't even tell my mum or anything, and I was just so embarrassed. And it's, and it's actually wild. And not to be all like doom and gloom about it, but this shame, and it's the same shame that affects men with their prostates and with testicular cancer.

But specifically for the sake of this episode in this conversation, this shame is killing women because we don't talk about it. My granny started bleeding again after the menopause and had no idea that that was a symptom of avarian cancer. She literally thought her period had come back. And why wouldn't she think that? Because what education did she receive? We don't know.

I think it's really frightening the fact that because women are expected to endure an amount of pain each month. because pain is synonymous with being a woman. Period pains are standard. Childbirth hurts. You know, we are expected to deal with pain. We are expected to bleed. It's therefore really hard to know what's normal because pain, unfortunately, is a normal part of being a woman, so is bleeding. So that is extra special reason why we have to pay the most attention to our guine health, because we have to know what pain is too much pain. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in this world that will fob any pain off as,

oh, it's just part of being a woman, no biggie. And it is a biggie. So that's why episodes and conversations like this are really, really important because it is essential that we open up this conversation, I think. I wanted to tell a funny story, actually. That'll help. Putting my friend on blast. Just add a bit of levity to this.

Give us a full name and address. So I cried laughing when she told me this. and she cried from embarrassment because it is just so funny and she was drunk and didn't mean to come out but she ended up telling us so when she was younger younger with her friends her girlfriends they all sat in front of the mirror right funny's out and i don't know i don't actually know how to describe it but basically like move their lips to do like like and made like opera noises with it like oh like I don't know, this is really hard to describe on a podcast because it's very visual what I'm doing

but basically like they move their lips apart and go like, wah, we're like, wow, they'd like talk like this and they called it Flapchat. How good is that? But I love that. I love a vagina being used just for something fun. Hilarious. We're not using it to make a kid, we're not using it to put a dick in,

we're not using it to have a speculum up there. We're just using it for fun. Literally. It's just a body pot. How funny. What are you going to do, finger poppet? You're going to do a fanny poppet. Good, as you should.

Flapchat. As you should. I love it. It does, like, I actually just really like a vagina just being, of all the, just being, evolve, just doing its thing. Don't make it weird. Don't make it sexual. Don't make it gross.

Don't make it embarrassing. Just, just leave it. It's let it do its thing, you know, for what it's worth. Like, I don't know, yeah, this, I don't know, I always just think this, let it do its thing. It's self-cleans. It's actually an incredibly self-sufficient. Can we talk about this? It self-cleans.

Yes. The pH or something, I don't know. Yes, it does, right? And we get info about this a lot. art saying like just water is sufficient but water for me has never felt sufficient it feels I think it's good to use a soap is weird I think what what a lot of people take umbrage with quite rightly is the amount of shit that's marketed as clean as because and I think this is another massive stigmatization of like the female anatomy where it's like oh and she stinks of fish and it's

like I mean if there is an odour that comes from you that it's beyond what you think is normal then go to a doctor because it may be an STI which by the way not embarrassing it happens just it just literally just happens it could be anything could be thrush could be whatever so it's always worth getting it checked but there's so much you know like about the way that women smell and whatever and that can make a woman really really embarrassed when actually first of all like dick cheese are the thing like dick smelled really terrible so I really don't really know well dirty ones do but I don't know you know like we comes out this oh I don't know man I don't know but yeah it's still gross yeah there's this huge like stigmatization of the way that a woman's

vagina and vulva smells and i think a lot of brands profit off that um yeah which is really gross and i think there's a massive difference the reason i like working with venus on this campaign is it's like it's really great to call pubic hair pubic hair and to make a range specific for the fact that your pubic hair is different for example to your leg hair so you need products that are going to help because i don't know about you but i always got in growing hairs if i ever shaved my vulva or pubic area razor bumps yeah and that was just like yeah horrible So to have a specific product, I actually think is really good because women are like expected societally to look a certain way. And there's a whole load to unpick there because actually this comes up quite a lot when we took when I talk about working with Venus.

People are like, well, you know, you're still talking about shaving and that's not very feminist. And my argument actually is the feminist bit is the right to choose. And if I'm going to choose to shave my body, I want the best tools available and I want products specific to this area. And I don't want to have to suffer because I've made this choice. and maybe I haven't unpicked all my feminism and maybe that's why I'm still shaving my valence, shoot me. Like shoot me. Like, hey, I haven't got the confidence to grow it out yet.

Give me time. Yeah. But if I'm... That's my stance on it as well. Yeah. Like, so, and I think there's a difference between this range, for example, which is like for the hair that you're removing. But your actual internal bits don't need stuff up there.

They don't need polishing and all that crap. Or douching. Do you remember that? If you smell, if there's an odour coming from you, go to a doctor. Otherwise, and if they say you're fine, you're fine. Why we shave is something that I think is ongoing for me, like why I shave, why I feel like I have to. Because if I'm totally honest, I feel like I have to.

That makes me feel better about, like, I think it looks better. Yeah. And that's my own shit, but actually that helps me go for my smears and all of that stuff because I'm like. Me too, and it's annoying because it shouldn't. I know. but do you want to we slap each other's hands as bad feminist so let me on the hand okay bad feminist okay good

but I feel like yeah but we can't yeah we can't be like perfect feminists and like this stuff is so hard to work out and to work through so and for the moment while I do still shave I want to know how to do it and do it properly and there is just so little info on the pubic area and shaving it and how not to get ingrown hairs or bumps and and also like it was revolutionary to me having a serum that you can put on afterwards like I've never known no because that's all part of the like it's a lady problem it's just the lady thing you just go with that quietly right exactly I don't want to know how I don't want to know how

the what's it how the hens know how the what's the expression how the how something's made I don't I don't want to have no not pie I don't want to know how sausage sausage is made there that is that's a terrible pun it sounds yeah I don't want to know how the sausage is made you know that's that's kind of attitude towards like all guy and yourself just make it look pretty just make it like pretty yeah exactly and and then on the on the um at the same time it won't you know no razor bumps no irritation no ingrained hairs but how how are we supposed to literally how are we supposed to avoid those things we have no idea so the two things are really linked I think like knowing

your pubic area knowing what you like what you look like what you want to look like how you work you know for me we talk about this again in the episode tracking my periods has been really valuable for me to learn more about my body and I feel for the first time in my entire life like I know what's going on and God forbid something had gone wrong in the last decade I would have had no idea because I wouldn't have known what to look for and although the symptoms are vague and although obviously cancer is a worst case scenario we have to be realistic about the fact that if you don't know you're normal you don't know what's abnormal so I we this episode is literally here with the purpose to continue

ending taboos and removing the stigma and I'm really proud that we got to do it. Me too. I'm really proud and it was a brilliant interview and so good to hear from both sides of the coin like the patient and the doctor and he sounds like an amazing doctor. I know. Absolutely incredible and his manner

and the care he takes of his patients probably means more to his patients that he'll ever know but it was just it was a really great insight and yeah I hope everyone enjoys it and learn something from it. We are leaving all of everybody's information that you hear from today in the show notes.

So if you want to go and follow John or Jess on Instagram or if you want to learn more about what the Lady Garden Foundation do or Venus's work to support them, all the links are in the show notes. And if you buy a Venus pubic hair and skin razor pack at the moment the donation is made to the Lady Garden Foundation. If you don't want to shave, you don't want to shave and that's fine. But we just want to give you the tools to shave better.

if you do shave and that's it no pressure either way and actually venus are really happy with that they're very supportive of that if you shave if you don't yeah you do you yeah your way your skin your way hi both of you hi thank you so much for joining us today for what is going to be a really an incredibly important episode thank you for being here firstly jumping straight in i'd love to ask you jess i guess i guess a good place to start would be your diagnosis what your symptoms were, if you were, if any, and, you know, what symptoms you were displaying. And did you have any idea at the time what those symptoms meant? Yeah, so I guess I'll start off with saying absolutely not, did not know it could be any form of a very

in cancer. First thought was pregnancy. So I was getting really sick. I started doing beach volleyball and after just kind of a few minutes, I'd feel really, really tired and dizzy and then I would go home and just be sick quite a few times over the next few days as well and then it just kind of kept carrying on. I thought maybe I'm just really unfit. I've not done exercise for a while. It was coming to the end of lockdown. And I thought, oh, I just really need to improve my fitness. The other sort of symptom was tiredness. So I was working from

home and I would start to fall asleep kind of every lunchtime, the whole lunchtime, multiple times during the day. I just need a quick 15 minute nap and things like that. and just really, really tired, but then attributed that to thinking, well, is it just because we're in lockdown, we're all a bit depressed, it's winter because this was the sort of March time last year, this is all started happening. And I just thought, oh, as soon as light gets to summer, I'll start feeling better about it and won't be so tired.

Another thing was getting up in the middle of the night and going to the toilet like three times, three, four times, and then getting really, really thirsty. And then I just didn't really think anything of it. And then I spoke to my mum and she said, Jess, do you think you need to maybe take a pregnancy test? And I thought, God, no, don't want to do that. I've never done it before.

Petrify. So I was 23 at the time. And she said, no, no, I think you need to go just take one just to be sure. And so I very nervously went down to the shop one morning for work and did the test and it was negative. And I thought, fine, and just sort of ignored the symptoms for a bit longer. And then I started losing a lot of weight really quick. and I think when I eventually went into hospital I was 51 kilograms and I'm five foot six so that was quite underweight and so I was getting really really skinny and then noticed my lower belly starting to protrude a bit and it was felt a bit hard and I weirdly thought like maybe I'm getting some kind of abs don't know like something like that and didn't at any point think it could be any kind of cancer and it wasn't until I was getting so sick that I couldn't eat or drink that I finally went to the GP and they

did a blood test and kind of felt my belly and said, yeah, we're going to refer you from ultrasound just to check it's all okay. And then did another pregnancy test. I think by the time I got to the doctors, it ended up being like seven pregnancy tests in total just to, because it really seemed like all of those kind of symptoms. But the next day after going to the GP, they rang me up and said, your kidneys are failing, getting, get to A and E quickly. And it all sort of went from that really. You mentioned there about these are all symptoms of pregnancy right

and I wonder like did you know any symptoms of any gyny cancer because like I feel like we know so much about breast cancer now and kind of like and there's really helpful stuff on like what to look for and that kind of thing and that's very valuable and amazing but I feel like with gyny cancer I don't

know and I know you know there are different symptoms depending on different areas but did you know any symptoms like did it ever cross your mind at any point that it could be a cancer or was it just none at all I think as you said with women you're told to check your boobs

and I did that religiously kind of every time I was in the shower because I was really like oh god I just need to keep on top of it and thought I was being really proactive but not at one time did I think ovarian cancer I never knew of any signs or symptoms didn't really naively thought that it didn't happen to people at 23

or in your early 20s the only other thought of cancer was like oh maybe it's stomach cancer because I was throwing up so much and felt a lump in my tummy but no not a single time i think ovarian cancer and i didn't know anything about it didn't know the types that you could have and so it was it was a real shock real shock it must have been your world must have just turned upside down like that to find out yeah so john can we touch on this with you because ovarian cancer is what we're talking about today but there are actually and this might come as a surprise to people but there are actually five different kinds of

gyny cancers. Are you able to just give us a rundown of each of those? Sure. So there are five gynaecological cancers and that means cancers of the female genital tracks. They're going, I guess, from the outside in. And vulval cancer, which is on the outer part of the vagina, it's quite uncommon cancer, cancer with a vulva. There can be cancer with the vagina, which is very, very rare. Cancer of the cervix for which women gave first smear tests. Cancer of the uterus or the womb, it's the same organ and cancer of the ovary. So those are their sort of five gynaecological cancers. Okay, so back to Jess, like you've just been diagnosed with ovarian cancer and you were admitted to the Royal Marsden and John here treated you. Can we ask about your treatment? Like how, did that

how process happen and how was, what was the treatment for you? Yeah, so I think John was the first one that came and said to me what was going on. So I turned up the Marsden feeling really unwell and they said you've got this dysgermanoma, which is the rare type of ovarian cancer I had. And she John came to me and said, right, you're going to have BEP chemotherapy, and this is how it works, here's some information on it, and you'll need surgery. And so I think you and Dr. George were sort of working together to decide when to have those cycles of chemo and when to have the surgery. And so, yeah, you were really the first one that came and explained it all to me, like,

what on earth was going on. And I think one thing I really remember was you said, oh, I needed an internal examination. And I thought, my goodness me, that's the scariest thing I've heard so far. which because I was 23, never had a smear test, nothing, I thought, oh my God, no. And I think you saw the fear in my eyes and you thought, okay, maybe not. I think we can postpone this. We don't need to do it now. But yeah, so I started off with the chemotherapy, did three cycles of that.

So it was very intense regime. It was four, five days of kind of four, five hours a day chemotherapy as an inpatient. So we did three cycles of that. And then John did my surgery. and so had an ovary taken out and a floping tube and some stressful lymph nodes and then one final cycle of chemotherapy just to like mop everything up and then that was it and then in October last year got the all clear which was amazing that sounds really tough physically I'm very very grueling but I'm wondering what the impact was like on your mental health

particularly because this was this was all in lockdown right yeah so at least coming out of lockdown. Yeah, I think that played a big part of it. So my mom was the only one that could come in with me and that was only because I was so young. Ordinarily a lot of other patients weren't allowed to have anyone else there. So I was really lucky in that respect. But a lot of my family and my boyfriend were kind of like desperate to come in, desperate to be there with me. And they found it really hard sort of being on the sidelines while I was in there for all those cycles of chemo and after the surgery and they just couldn't come in. But I think mental health-wise, because it will happen so quickly. Going through it, I didn't find that tough. It was afterwards after I got the all clear

and it was like, well, now I've got breathing space. What earth has just happened? It was like going through a car crash. And I think what didn't help was I was in like a temporary state of menopause. So my, I had kind of no hormones going on, which was a big shock to the body. And so we did hormone therapy, which John put me on, which was amazing. And that really helped improve my mood and I think there's probably quite a lot of stigma around young girls or hormone therapy as a whole but young girls being on it as well and I think a lot of people aren't given that opportunity so to be able to put on that really help my mental health I mean obviously didn't solve everything it's a big thing to come to terms with but that was a big big help and I think

even going on to kind of with seven months since I've had the all clear there's days that I find really tough and it's sort of always in the back of my head i'm always cancers in my mind every day and you see all these adverts for like the mcmillan adverts and things could be quite graphic and for me that's quite a triggering point now even they have i think one of the new adverts they've got the iv machine going and that beep that they just have really triggers me because i sat there for so many hours and it was such a such a traumatizing time so i do have days it's really tough but generally it's getting a lot better. Yeah, understandably, that's a lot to go through to come out completely unscathed mentally, right? That's really intense. But it's amazing that you can sit here now with your doctor,

which is really cool and talk about this without, like, I don't want to put you guys on the spot, but how important is this relationship between patient and doctor? Yeah, I mean, it's huge. Really, really important to have such a good relationship. I mean, we can talk really, openly now obviously at the start when I was saying I was petrified and going oh he wants to internal but now kind of he's made me very comfortable with the processes and things like that and taken away that stigma and especially I don't know if you get it much being a male gynaecological surgeon I don't know if many of your patients think oh it's a male doing it if that makes it any worse but I think you made me feel very comfortable about everything and you really

took the time to explain things, which was a huge, huge help. No, I mean, it is, you know, all patients are different and unique individuals, but you can't help when you look after young patients like yourself, you really feel, you know, I've got small children of myself, you think, gosh, you know, this is such a huge amount of news I'm telling you and the responsibility that we have to try and do it with kindness and honesty and compassion. And, I mean, I think one of the great things at the Royal Marsden is we've got a brilliant team of both the doctors and the nurses and our clinical nurse specialist who can help support all of those conversations. I find quite often I can be,

you know, delivering Ross's life-changing news. Patients will say they're fine. I leave the room and then the nurse comes out half an hour later and they've been in tears and there can be, you know, we realise there are, you know, things we can't change about ourselves. I can't, I could change being a man, but you know, I can't change being a man and how that may affect some, some, you know, relationships and those conversations. So it really is all about the whole team working, working together. And I think, you know, the nice thing about modern medicine is we are honest and open, nothing is hidden and we're all, you know, just there to help and, you know, we're learning more each day. And the key thing is we tell you about the

specific disease that you had, what we can do to cure it and also how we can help you move forward in life. Like on a practical level, John, it would be really like valuable to talk to you about, about gyne health. And because we say all the time we need to know our bodies and we need to know our normal and, and that sort of thing. And that's really well and good but we don't and I think what's really hard for a lot of women is it's just like you know we don't we can hardly even say the word vagina like you know that anatomically people don't know the difference between a vagina and a vulva mostly like we don't know our bodies and it's kind of I love the sentiment of like come on girls know your bodies but

it's like okay but what do we need to know and like again put you on the spot but is there anything that we that we just we should have been taught and we haven't and that's not our fault but we could really do with knowing now. Yeah, so absolutely, I mean, I think one of the sort of basic things is, is an asthma, knowing what things look like, what is normal for you, as soon as you know, what is normal is for you in terms of what things look like. If we're talking about the vulva, that, you know, that is helpful. And we're not just talking about cancer here, but there are lots of conditions that women may, may have that if they know something is new and different, it could be an STI, it could be an infection, something like that, you can say,

that is new and different. I need to see someone and get checked out. The other thing is, you know, women from the time they start their periods, being aware of what their normal menstrual pattern is. I mean, it's great now with apps and things where you can keep a record of that and saying, what is new and different to me? Am I having a change in my cycle? And then it's also about new symptoms.

And I think one of the challenges of the ovarian cancer in common with many cancers that start in the abdominal cavity is the vague symptoms they can have, such as bloating, abdominal pain, needed to go to the loomal frequency, change in bowel habit, change in weight. And it's, you know, those things. If we all think of them, you know, we probably get them once a week. However, if they persist and last for four weeks or longer, then it's really worth just getting checked out.

And I think it is just being aware of your body. And in those conversations, you know, you have with people, you know, just saying, look, you've been complaining about this for a while, you know, it is worth just getting it checked out. But in terms of advocating for yourself, because, and this is not to speak to, most doctors, because obviously most doctors are amazing, almost, most doctors are amazing. But it's hard, you know, waiting times are hard. and getting women to advocate for themselves and to know their normals and all that sort of thing and I wonder like is there a way that we can I think I don't know and correct me if I'm wrong but I sometimes think maybe because we bleed

once a month anyway. A lot of women are like oh well bleeding again like probably just left it from last time or whatever you know so we are very vague like you say with vague symptoms is there a way that's very is there a way that women can advocate for themselves well because I think sometimes we don't want to speak up about

Guy any help and it can be embarrassing. And is there a way that you can advocate deliberately and purposely in a way that people will listen? Yeah. So it is hugely, you know, hugely challenging because the frequency of abnormal bleeding, you know, amongst young women is, is very common. However, I think if you, I'll say, I am, you know, I'm very concerned that I may have this condition. And then it kind of gets it out in the open and saying, you know, I'm worried I have endometrial cancer. And, you know, doctors are, you know, we've got really good guidelines now. we are seeing in the NHS more women than ever with suspected cancer, you know, most of them don't have cancer, but I think it's that clarity to say, I am concerned, I have this condition,

please can I get checked out? Because, you know, the, you know, GPs are doing really well, but it is very hard for them, the volume of people coming through. And, you know, for most young women, you know, it is not cancer, it is, you know, something else. But until they have an investigation or get it checked out, it's difficult. And we know I did some research looking at international variation in terms of what the general public will present to doctors within the UK and we were different to other countries in terms of patients being more embarrassed about symptoms. So I think it's the sort of case where the British stiff upper lip perhaps holds people back from presenting. We were talking before we started recording as well about how it's really, with all the

cancer awareness that's been raised, which is incredible and so, so necessary, there is a lot to kind of look out for. And I guess a lot of the times you're a bit like, is this something to worry about? Is it not? Would you tell anyone who's just worried in the slightest to just go to their GP? Is that what your advice would be? Or would you? I mean, I think most, one of the problems is that cancer, one and two people develop cancer in their lifetime. The likelihood of cancer increases when people get older. We know whenever there are big awareness campaigns, often the clinics are full of, you know, the quote, unquote, worried well where their chance of having cancer is, you know, almost negligible, not zero.

So it's really about the persistence and sort of crescendoing of symptoms. So if you've got, you know, just a bit of an A campaign that comes and goes, it's probably not, you know, nothing. But as you, you know, very eloquently said, if you've got symptoms are getting more frequent and persist, then it really is worth getting checked out. And, you know, the general guidelines, if there's a 3% risk of a symptom being cancer, it should be investigated. But the problem, and I really, really feel for GP is because the, you know, the number

of people they have to see. And you know, so many of those people have symptoms that could be a cancer, but most of them are not. So it's really, you know, trying to delineate that. And, you know, we're doing in the NHS a lot of work. We've now got clinics where patients with non-specific symptoms can go, so what's called rapid diagnostic clinics. So where a GP says, this woman hasn't got, or patient has not specific, you know, cancer I'm worried about, but I am worried about them. And then they can go out of a battery of tests. So there's a huge amount of investment going in to try and improve that at the moment. So talking like about getting women to appointments and a big part of that is removing

the stigma and embarrassment that we feel. And you touched on it before when you said that Dr. John had to do an internal examination and you didn't want to do that, which is fair enough. I guess it stops a lot of women going for their smears for the same reason. Like it is just embarrassing and awkward and whatever. You won't feel like that because you're a doctor. So it's your, it's anatomy, right? but I wonder as a patient, like if you wouldn't mind talking about how you've come to terms with it

and kind of how you feel now about the stigma and if there's anything you'd say to any other young women out there about the stigma or how you feel about that now. Well, as I said, so the first time we met, you said, I needed to do an internal examination. I just sat there in fright, went, no. And my mom was sat with me trying to convince me going, oh, it won't be bad, it won't be bad. And I just, for some reason, and just couldn't face it that day. And you said it's fine, we just won't do it this time. Managed not need it for a bit. And then when we did come to need to do one at a later time,

I sort of just had to suck it up. I think it's when we were discussing the upcoming surgery I was going to have. And I think there was just so much going on. And then you said, oh, we're going to do this. And I think I just sort of thought, right, well, we're going to have to do it now then. We're going to have to suck it up and go and have it done. And it was absolutely fine. It was all in my head because I've heard other people say that,

tests are bad and internal examinations are all kind of painful and uncomfortable and that wasn't my experience at all. I've had a few since then and it's all been absolutely fine and really, really nothing to worry about. So I think obviously I had no grounding for what I was really getting scared about because I didn't know what's coming. It's just from what other people have said. So it really is that stigma's built that up. And yeah, I found it absolutely painless and fine and it's over and done with so quickly. Right. And it's so true. It's like with smear tests as well, isn't it? I've got four little sisters and two of them turned 25 recently and I had to coach them through, their twins, had to coach them through their first smear test

and they came out like, oh my God, there's nothing to it. It's absolutely nothing to it. The nurse is doing tons of these a day. It's in and it's out and it's done. But I'm wondering, John, if you believe that the reason that gine cancers are called the silent killers are referred to as the silent killers is because of this stigma and embarrassment. Do you believe that contributes to it? Yeah, I think to a degree and I think, you know, we know for some women, they do, you know, are scared of the diagnostic investigation, smear test or scans, you know, partly what might be find and partly the trauma, you know, of it. And there are lots of things women can do in terms of the physical examination. So I often, you know, tell women, you know, if they say I find

it's difficult, you know, they may have had past experiences that make that more difficult. That isn't that there, yeah, then there's an opportunity to help with them, but also things like knowing what size speculum, which is what we use to do, a smear test fits you best. And for example, some women find it easier if they actually insert the speculum themselves and then they feel a much more relaxing. And a lot of people can ask to do that. Yeah, absolutely. And so quite a lot of women, if they've had, you know, I've had some women who've unfortunately

had, you know, abuse or other things in the past. And then, yeah, they've, yeah, now we've built up sort of confidence relationship that they the embryo and set the spectrum themselves until they feel in a comfortable position that I can view the cervix and take the test. So lots of things that can be done to help women. That's brilliant information that I didn't know. And also in terms of smear tests, we know 20 to 30 percent of women are not going regularly for their screening test and that we're doing programs in London where and elsewhere where women can self-test so they can do an HPV test on themselves. It's not quite as good as doing the smear test, but it's still a way of testing. Right. Is that the statistic 20 to 30 percent of

women don't. Yeah, it varies from region to region. Yeah. That's a lot, isn't it? A lot of people put it off as well, don't they just think, oh, I'll just, I'll get around to it. I think I just spend like 15% of my life chivying my girlfriends to go and have this me a chance done. Have you booked it yet? Have you booked yet? Have you booked it yet? But I mean, certainly, I mean, the, I don't like, obviously I don't like it. The phrase a silent killer and I think historically was associated with ovarian cancer because people thought there were no symptoms and people died of it. Both those things, broadly speaking, untrue. We know there are symptoms, you know, you described, and they're often vague

symptoms. But also, we are, you know, women are cured of ovarian cancer. Not all women, but many women are and women are and women who are not cured of living longer and longer and longer. So, you know, we really are seeing better outcomes. Can I ask about the ovarian cancer symptoms? Because I've mentioned before we started recording, I've gone off script again, sorry. But my, my granny had ovarian cancer. And her symptom, her first symptom was that she got a period after the menopause. And she rang my mom and she was gasped. She was like, my period's come back. And I was like, I don't know.

Like, that doesn't sound right. And obviously it isn't right. But we don't know that because we don't know a lot about it. So, of course, you had so many symptoms, Jess, that were vague, like you say. But there are some more obvious ones like bleeding after menopause. There's bloating, isn't there? Yeah, so exactly. So, I mean, I think the one key symptom of potential cancer is what we call paste menopoles or bleeding.

So bleeding after the menopause. And that always warrants an urgent referral. So any woman who has bleeding after the menopause will get an ultrasound. scan and usually an assessment of the lining of their womb. It's usually nothing but about 10% up between 5 to 10% of women with bleeding off the menopoles will have either cancer of the womb or cancer of the aviary. So it is something that should be investigated. So you definitely go to the GP. If you're after the menopause and you have bleeding, always get checked out. It can be due to something called vaginal atrophy, which is

as well drying of the tissues and thinning of the tissues, but it was always important we check out for womb or ovarian cancer. Well, I wanted to ask you both about your work with the Lady Garden Foundation and, yeah, what you do and why it's so important, Jess, if you want to. Yeah, so I found out by the Lady Garden Foundation through the lovely press team at the Marsden, who sort of asked me to share my story. And from then, I sort of found out everything they did, found out that John was a trustee, and that they're also funding research for Dr. George, who was my oncologist. And so I thought, right, well, I need to do some fundraising for this. And we did a walk across London in March, which is a very very important.

in Cancer Month. And we raised about 8,000, 8,000 and a half thousand pounds. So, yeah, I was really pleased to do that. But no, they're a great charity. And I really love what they do. They're spreading the word for gyne cancers, which I think is so important, particularly in young women. And what about you, John, as a doctor? Yeah, so it's a great charity. So at the Marston, we've historically had a fantastic charity to the Royal Marston Cancer Charity, and we're the oldest cancer hospital in the UK, and one of the oldest in the world. And the Lady Garden Foundation was originally set up to do fundraising for my colleague Susanna Banerjian. It's gone on from that to fundraise other streams of research,

including for Dr George, but also a lot of work on awareness. It's got quite a sort of exciting, provocative style, as you can tell from the name, but doing some amazing fundraising events. I think we've raised over £2 million to date, both to raise awareness about gynaecological cancers, to raise money for research, but also to do awareness of general women's health, and women's issues.

So it's fantastic charity. It's absolutely honoured to be a trustee, a medical director of it. And I think the collaboration with the Royal Marsda Cancer Charity has been very fruitful for all concerned. Can I ask about the provocative nature of your lovely T-shirt, Jess? Because it is like, and I think it's really important, and I love this. Like it feels like a real like autonomy coming back for like female

of like their body parts and like getting to know their bodies. Is that like, I don't know that sounds like odd, but is it empowering for you to sort of, work with the brand that are so kind of fun with this you know like even the lady garden it's it is fun right and it does feel like reclaiming a lot of power yeah yeah I love it and I think it's great and one thing I sort of had a hesitation about was sending out the fundraising link to work which is quite a traditional company that I work for and I thought no no this is the whole point of the charity they're empowering us to kind of be comfortable with it I should just be comfortable to send it out

and everyone loved it and they thought it was great and I think yeah for that reason as well it's such just a fantastic charity yeah because some of the hoodies and stuff don't they've got the like the arrows pointing down and like yeah i think it's good to make people look twice and think twice because it's crazy that there would be any embarrassment attached to you sending that email despite the fact that surely your work knew what you've been through so i love what i love i love the name i love i want that t-shirt i love the lot so jess you have had your all clear for seven months now yes i think so amazing question that is going to fully put you on the spot what has the last year taught you about

life oh it's a deep one very broad one very sorry but also we really want to know um well i guess the cliche one is it sort of puts everything into perspective um but i think something i've really found in myself is it's made me feel so much stronger um and resilient and it's made me think well i've I've been cancer. I could do that. If something's stressing me out, I think I've been cancer. And I think it's just sort of given me that confidence to be stronger and face new challenges and not sweat the small stuff as much, although people might disagree with me.

I do still stress about certain things, but who doesn't? But no, I think, yeah, definitely just having that kind of strength of character and resilience, being confident to go to appointments on my own and have internal examinations, talk about it, get the word out there. yeah amazing because and john you were saying before we started as well talking about you know the feels weird saying like the positive side you know of cancer or i guess of what you do yeah as a cancer doctor um that you see people being given a different perspective on life and sort of a better outlook on life would you say i mean one thing i've changed so i've first

worked at the raw marsden in 2003 and thought gosh it with my dream to work here because everyone was so positive, so good at what they did and really truly, truly cared as human to human. And I've actually now, I've stopped saying to patients when I give them a cancer diagnosis, I'm sorry you have cancer because I don't want to burden it with negativity. It's actually, you know, it's not going to be a positive thing, but it's something we are here to absolutely help you with. This is a diagnosis. You don't just have ovarian cancer. You've got a specific form of ovarian cancer. This is the best treatment. This is how we're going to fix it as best as we can for you so you can move forward with your life and not just say, you know,

that this is all negative and doom and gloom because it's not, you know, more and more people are living longer and longer and longer. And in my career, you know, patients often ask me, you know, have less curable cancers, how long have I got to live? And I say, well, all I can say is things are getting better all the time. What I would have told you two years ago is different to what I would have told you four years ago. And, you know, with a great work we're doing with research, with things are getting better. So I think that, you know, we're on to the patients, patients can look things up and actually, you know, I am obviously very sorry people have cancer, but it is not doom and gloom.

It's wonderful to hear cancer being spoken about with hope. It's just, honest, I could cry. It's never a perspective that I've heard before, and it is such doom and gloom for so many families, you know. So it's really lovely to see, like, you're sitting here, Jess, you just, you look so well, and you're doing such great stuff. And it's like, I've never heard that perspective, but it's like, you know, it's terrifying, isn't it? You just say cancer and it's just terrifying. But just to see, like, the happy ending is just magic.

And I wonder, sorry, did not mean to get emotional, but it's been a week. But I wonder either of you, both of you, Jess, I guess specifically, like, is there any advice? What advice is there that you'd give to any other young women listening? Just listen to your body. If anything seems strange and persists and you think, right, this is just getting a bit weird now. it's been going on for as you say about four weeks or so get it checked i was putting it off attributing it to different things not wanting to miss work which was just silly put your health first listen to your body and just get it checked what about you john what advice would you have for

young women listening yeah so i mean i i think it's more broad you know cancer is you know a condition we get but i think it is the more we are aware of our bodies and you know the other thing is important is about prevention so thinking about you know exercising not drinking too much not smoking getting your regular smear tests and just being you know where people think about their kind of financial affairs their financial planning we should all be doing health planning thinking about what you what am i putting myself at risk of you know how can i be as healthy as possible so you know things one in two of us will develop cancer the fitter and stronger you are who loves swimming don't you um then you know the better people are to deal with whatever

treatments they may need and that goes for a host of medical conditions so i think really being aware of our bodies and you know i think with a lot of modern technology on your phones you you can, you know, look at what your weight's doing and monitor your periods and just see if anything is different. But actually seeing that, you know, focusing on one's health, physical and mental is vital to our enjoyment of this. There's a great world we live in. Thank you, guys. Thank you so much. That was brilliant. Thank you. Is there anything that you wanted to say that we haven't covered? I think the only thing I would say, just to add to what we were talking about before, when John was saying, kind of looking at things more positively

and focusing on life, I think one thing I found really good with you was saying, right, we're going to get you back to being a normal young, 20 year old, back to being a normal woman. And I think having that focus just right from the start made it, it made me think that way rather than just sitting there thinking, oh, I've been diagnosed with cancer, this is me now, this is it, and not letting it define me. We thought, right, we're going to get back to normal life, whatever normal life is. Can I ask actually, so I didn't even, it didn't occur to me to us before, but just thinking about it, the Mazden, I've had friends that have been at the Mazden and the atmosphere is always

felt so supportive and of course your world got turned upside down and there's nothing normal about what you went through but did you find like a resemblance of like love and and like real life in throughout your treatment and beyond because again I've seen it and I guess that's a gift that social media gives is there is positivity within certain spaces and it is you know it is lonely of course it's lonely you're on your own and everything but but did you feel with John and with other patients, maybe, that it wasn't, it wasn't as, I don't know, that there was more love in it than you thought there would be. Yeah, so I think definitely John and Dr. George and the CNS's as well that I dealt with were

all so lovely, very friendly. It wasn't very much like, I'm your doctor and this is it. And it wasn't clinical in that sense, although, obviously it was clinical, fun and fun. But it was, we built relationships and I think that was such a big part of it. And it made me, I trusted all of you instantly, which I think is a big thing. And I just knew that I was in safe hands. I think that's really good. In terms of with other patients, I didn't really meet many other patients until after.

So I've spoken to a few since. And they've all shared really positive stories at the Marston. And through another charity, I've kind of met other young people that have been through the same thing. And it's just also a couple that were treated at the Marston. And also positive. just such positive stories about it. I mean, I think one thing, and Jess alluded to it, the real challenges we've had in healthcare over the last couple of years

are the restrictions that COVID has made. And I know that the support of family and friends, however amazing our nurses are, it's not the same as having a mum or boyfriend there. And it has been very difficult. And often that sort of peer-to-peer support from patients on the eczema unit and that sort of thing, that's all been a bit restricted and hopefully things will get back on track.

Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you both so much for being here with us today. That was amazing and so helpful and so informative as well. So, yeah, thank you so much. Great. Thanks for us. Guys, thank you so much for listening. I hope you took as much from that as we did. We just absolutely value these conversations so much. And I don't think we should underestimate the importance of hearing from real life people and talking about things. are so entrenched in shame. So we're really, really proud that we got to do that. This is the end of this episode now. We are going to be back, as we said, on Thursday.

This is the new format. So we have a bumper episode coming out on Thursday, which is our Is It Just Me's? If you've got any questions, any thoughts, any emails, we would love to hear from you. Al, can you hit them with the email address, please? So our email address is, Should I Delete That Pod at gmail.com?

Please send in anything you have. Is it just me? embarrassing stories and they may well get read out on Thursday's episode so please join us then thank you so much for listening we will see

anything else no that's great we're panicking with the outro we will we're balling it up we're going to say thank you so much for listening we love you loads

we'll see on Thursday for a bumber special no it's not even a special it's just a thing we'll see on Thursday we'll see on Thursday as we always do I fucking love a Thursday

see on Thursday see on Thursday bye Bye.