Should I Delete That? - Talking Taboo with Ruby Rare

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

This week on the podcast, Em and Al are joined by sex and relationships expert, author and presenter Ruby Rare! In this episode, Ruby and the girls steer away from sex-only chats to delve into relationships. They discuss navigating porn, cheating, solo sex and life drawing.You can follow Ruby on Instagram @rubyrareFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm always a bit aware of kind of when sexuality is seen as something that's like so linked to somebody else because I want us all to like have our own sexual identity and kind of feeling. Hello, welcome back to Should I Delete That? I'm Alex Lyme. I'm Em Clarkson. How are you doing? I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. I need a way, but I'm good. As is standard for this state of your life.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Anything. Good. I'm trying to push it out. Anything good, bad, awkward for me? Loads. Good. Yeah.

We, I mean, we do get a lot of nice emails, but we received a really lovely email to both of us about the podcast. Yeah. About this, basically about this girl's body image journey and how like the podcast has just helped her feel a bit less alone and she's getting married and she feels like she's got a dress that she feels comfortable in and that was never she thought that was never going to be on the cards for her like it was always going to be she's always going to feel horrible and she's excited about her wedding

anyway I just read this email and I was like God that is so lovely that's so nice also on the goods we also had such an amazing reception last week to Dr Amanda Brown's episode so good it was just so lovely to I don't know like everybody has a podcast and like it's they really do yeah and like everybody's always talking all the time and there is a lot of noise and we're like really aware of that and you know like it's something that we're really passionate about like trying to bring conversations that like we really value and Amanda brown for both of us was like just someone that we were just like it was mind-blowing completely obsessed with and it was such a privilege to like yeah be able to

have that conversation and air it and stuff so yeah I think like to have everybody love it it's not just we did was yeah and often a new perspective, completely different perspective. I had an email, I had a DM from somebody saying that she was a nurse and having listened to that podcast, she'd always thought about working in prisons and always felt that it was her duty as a nurse to care for people without judgment and that that episode was a sign she needed and when she finished her master, she was going to apply for a job. That's so, so, look at us changing career paths.

I know. I don't mean that. Any bads? My bad is that I had a. call with the health visitor and she told me that by now, I'm 33 weeks that show that by now my hospital bag should be packed and ready by the door. It obviously isn't, like I don't even know what goes into a hospital bag. So, do you want my list? Yes, please. I made a list. Yes, please. And I'll revise the list of things that I actually use. Yes, please. Yeah,

because I overpacked. Yeah, I don't want to do that. As is per. I just, I just want the essentials. Yeah. I don't want to overwhelm myself. Just don't forget a baby hat. Don't get a hat. That was one thing. I should have remembered hat, baby hat. I did buy a hat, but I thought it was for the hospital. And then my mum and Jen laughed at me. It's a novelty hat. It's got, it's a bear hat. That's got a big bear on it. And it's also probably a fit for a two-year-old. So I don't think it's not right. No. Anyway, so this weekend, it's panic. It's panic buying. It's panic packing. It's panic everything. Okay. You don't need to panic. You still got ages. I have still got ages. Next day delivery is a godsend.

Like, next day, Delivered How does our parents do it? Badly. Very badly. Very badly. Have you got anything for me? I've got awkward. I've got an awkward for you.

So, as you might have noticed, my content recently, I've been trying to, well, I've been consistent because I'm doing my 30-day affirmation station. Yes, love them. Yep, loving that. Anyway, I'm having to think of, like, new and original ideas every day,

which is ridiculous thing to do it at this time of my life. We're about to recording loads of interviews because, obviously, you're about to go on maternity leaves. I'm very busy. I've got my childcare set up, which is really good, but it does mean that I'm now pushing my whole working week into a couple of days a week

because the rest of the time I want to be with my kid and so, you know, I'm really busy at the moment, yeah, and I've decided to take this on which was absolutely moronic but I'm also kind of enjoying it. Anyway, a couple of days ago, I tried to film athletic content

like I wanted to do like my like morning routine thing. Anyway, a few things were awkward about it. You've already laughed at me for the fact that I put my phone in the fridge and I had to pretend that my phone wasn't in the fridge like, oh, it's just here. I saw the ad today and I was like, oh God, hello. You did it well though.

Thanks so much. Yeah, no, I nailed it. You want to do something really sad? Go on. This was the video. Okay, so I set up my tripod. Yeah. I need the new iPhone because the camera on this one has gone to shit, right?

Right. So I can't use the front facing camera anymore to film because it's just gone really blurry. So I have to use the back facing camera. So I set up this shot to show myself doing my hair. Yeah. Because that's the kind of influence that I am now. This is an eight minute, 55 second clip. Are you ready?

Go on. What? Are you joking? I flipped it the wrong way. I filmed out my window for nine minutes. No, you didn't. No, you did not. Wait, but how...

Wait, so you were only saying the back camera. Yeah. So you presumed it was just on you. It was actually on the window the whole time. A nine minute clip. Oh, I'm a shame for you. I was so devastated when I went to look back at the footage and it was like, oh no.

And it completely ruined the context. Oh, so, like, that I should make a whole clip of just with the camera's facing. Oh, my God, that's so good. It's so sad. Like, there's a whole series in, like, vloggers setting up the shot. But then, Al, I undid it. I undid my hair and redid my hair for the camera because I'd done it up where it was facing the window, so then I undid it all, and then I redid it.

You don't have pissed off. I would be visibly fuming if I just done that. If that's not awkward, then I don't know what it is. That is well awkward, isn't it? You tragic little loser. You're a terrible influencer and you deserve everybody to leave. Trudge.

Absolutely pathetic. And I tried filming this morning as well and I was filming. I just need a new camera. I need a new phone. But I need the fucking 15, but it's like thousands of pounds in a wait list.

So annoying. Anyway. Anyway. Good. Good sharing in the response about the last week's episode but also we had another hag event on Sunday.

We did a little 10K. So that was lush. So, yeah. Just good vibes at them in it. Good. Bad is that I'm always a bit poorly. Again. You notice about once every two weeks.

I'm like, oh yeah, I'll always poorly again. Kids. Kids, right. No other systems. Like, seems like a fundamental design floor. If I were designing a baby, a fragile little infant, I would give it a considerably better immune system than what they have. And make them able to walk as soon as they come out.

That seems secondary. Like giving them some immunities to things that could kill them. or at least make their lives miserable. Yeah. Seems like a really good place to start. Yeah, it does, doesn't it? Yeah, making them have colds every like two or three weeks. Oh, she's building out there in music.

Why weren't they born with it? The worst is the sickness bugs. I'm dread, we haven't had one of those yet. Touch wood and fucking whistle. She's got a really, but I've had the snot thing out. No, they give me night. They, they, they're, I find them harrowing. Needs must.

I'm determined to never do that, but I know I probably will. Oh, good. No, you'll have to. It's so, so, I mean, obviously, maybe, because I'm still breastfeeding as well, like, if she can't breathe through her nose, she can't breathe, so we got to clear, we got to clear the pipes. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's so gross. But it's somehow also doesn't really bother me because I'm like, oh, my little baby, love you. Yeah, maybe, maybe, yeah. Yeah, totally. Like, if it was someone else's kid, I'd be like, ugh.

But, like, it's just so gross and, like, how'd you clean that then? Yeah, that's a bit of seen. He's rins it a lot. But it's fine. But I do wish I were better. Yeah, she's fine. She's just, it's just so sad. Sad. Just so sad. They're so helpless.

I know. I know. They can't say. They can't moan. I know. I know. I know. I'm miserable to be able to not be able to moan.

I know. Have you anything awkward? I do. I do. I actually shared my awkward with you guys. But I went up to Liverpool last weekend to meet my friend's new baby. Gorgeous little thing. Zanda, very, very beautiful little boy.

Loved meeting him. Gorgeous. And seeing her. and her husband. Anyway, her husband a few nights ago put on Facebook like one month of Xander and I wrote under it, Zander, and then I went to write four hearts, right?

But I did two hearts and then two vomit emojis. The vomit emoji was right next to the heart one and I did it so quickly that I just pressed send and then I was like, oh my God, I've just put vomit emojis under my friend's brand new. wrote his name first like Xand up blot how awful it's really good i deleted it obviously straight away not before screenshot and sending it to us though which i appreciate yeah i did a very quick screenshot and then did four hearts instead of vomit emojis so hopefully they didn't see it but how rude

i mean of all the emojis it's about as bad as it gets it's the worst one yeah oh god i saw something on TikTok the other day that was just like when someone asks you to hold a newborn baby it's like you wouldn't ask them to hold a tampon it's like the same thing it's just been inside you oh my god that's so weird here hold my tampon hopefully not immediately after being inside you yeah like if you imagine give the tampon a bit of time to dry out it's a bit better yeah to dry out fucking foul well anyway we've got a guest a guest we've got a relationship and sex educating guest today. We've got the amazing Ruby Rare. This was a really lovely episode. I think we've focused quite a lot on sex in recent episodes, but it was really nice to have this conversation

from a relationship perspective. Yeah, and to explore how the two intersects, which I don't think we've done before, really. No, it was really lovely, really great conversation, just so open and just really wholesome. Yeah, and she's lovely. She's so lovely. And she was in a full villa juicy track suit, which is something I can only aspire to. I know. Love that for her. Hope you enjoyed the episode, guys. Hello and welcome to the podcast, Ruby Rare. Is that your real name?

What do you think? Obviously, it isn't my real name. Yeah, but you are talking to Alex Light, which I always think, like, isn't her real name, but it is. Is that your surname? Yeah. That's gorgeous. Isn't it?

Yeah. So you did ask me one, she's at a stage name, and I was like, what? No. That's show business movie. No, Ruby Rare was just my Instagram handle. I don't know if either of you feel like this. It's quite helpful having, like, a bit of a Hannah Montana vibe.

I'm in my little sexy mode right now. Great, Ruby rare. And then I'm like scabbing around on the beach and being kind of weird and that's me like day to day. So that that's been quite useful. Yeah, good like separation. That's like we've got listener questions to talk to you about but that's something that like I just have personal questions about

because I'm not as free as I'd like to be. How do you handle like doing like talking about sex on the internet and then like kind of juggling that with your real life. Like is that like are you, are you, Miley, are you Hannah? Like, what are you? How does that? Like, how do you kind of bridge that in your real life? That's a really good question.

I mean, because I come from working in a sexual health charity, sexual health is like not sexy. Yes. It's, you know, local government stuff and being in clinics and like education system, it feels, I think that as much. my grounding in the space has meant that it doesn't feel like super, super sexy a lot of the time, even though I don't really do that stuff anymore. And nowadays, I think when I moved to the coast, it was really useful because that was like a separation. A lot of my work isn't where I live

anymore or like, I don't know, it's just created a little bit of a bubble where I have like a sanctuary where me and my mates like don't talk about work and that's not a part of how we like relate to each other. Like I know where my mind. limits are and they're probably different from other people's but I'm happy talking about this a lot because I genuinely don't really care because I think it's really important I've worked with enough people especially young people to know that there's so much shame there's so much nervousness everyone has got those panicked like fuck am I normal questions in their mind and if we all keep them secret that's just not doing it it's just continuing on a cycle of like shame and fear and

not learning and expressing ourselves so I don't mind just chatting about a lot of this stuff. Also, like, I used to be a life model for years. Like, I'm a naked, like, I'm... Really? It doesn't, it doesn't... A lot of this stuff doesn't phase me, but then I guess there'll be things that, like,

I would feel really uncomfortable doing it. So you are a sex educator. Yep. Can you talk us through how you got there, like how that came to be? Yeah, sure. So I need to remember more to say, like, relationships and sex educator,

because they are so wrapped up. A lot of the time I think the sex is the bit that people want to hear about the most. And then I'm like, hey, relationships, they all, it all weaves in together. But I started working for Brooke, which is a sexual health charity, and they are amazing. They work with young people, but also all ages, all around the country. And they do clinical, like, sexual health as well as educational work. And I worked there for five years.

And that was kind of how I learned how to speak about all of this stuff. It's also where I learned how to, like, speak. Because before then, if I was in a meeting, I would go right back. and shake, like if I had to speak, if this would have made me, like, whither and melt and I wouldn't have been able to do it. And I kind of, getting in front of a classroom of students, just kind of, like, squashed it out of me. Where did the life modeling come in that time? Oh, that was before. I wasn't phased about that. So you could be naked, but you just couldn't speak. Yeah. That's so interesting, yeah. I know. It's weird, isn't it? Yeah, I had been

the other way around. I think, yeah, I think it was just feeling, like, really on the spot. And I was really anxious at the time. And there was something about a life modeling where you're not having to like, it feels counterintuitive, but it's not performative. You're not having to do, you're just being. Whereas if you're, if I had to like do a presentation, it was very much like all lies on me and being kind of critical about what I'm doing. So yeah, I like literally sat in front of a classroom of 14 year olds having like the most brutal experience of my life of teenagers just being like, we do not give a shit about what you're saying. That humbled me enough to then learn how to speak and really engage people with these topics. And I loved,

I loved doing that. I love working with young people. And I learned so much from being in that charity and I'm still involved with them now. And from that, I kind of started to be asked to do these workshops and lessons for adults and started talking about my job online. And then that kind of blew up in an unexpected way. And I've, I think I still do a lot of the same things that I've been doing like from the very beginning from like eight nine years ago but just in different spaces because everyone like none of us had good sex education when we were growing up so I used to work with young people who were like having their first experience of what relationship in sex education was like and then realizing that as adults we're all trying to play catch up because

all of us like had this missed opportunity where people didn't speak to us at all or spoke to us and gave us like these really weird damaging messages or there was a lot of like fear and uncertainty left within ourselves. So I think so many of us are still kind of trying to play catch up but also being adults being like I'm going through the menopause and I don't know what's happening. Like I've just had a kid and I don't know what's happening. So that's, I'm really fascinated by those like unknown pockets of conversation.

Within the sex work that you do, I think it is interesting that you point out that relationships are part of that. because even having had, like you say, poor sex ed, I don't think we have any relationship education at all. And I guess I always think that we don't have it for friendships either, which I think is a bit difficult. Like we're not taught how to be friends. We're not taught how to be girlfriends, boyfriends, like partners.

And we're also not taught how to be like social media friends. Like I think there's like there's so much like in terms of like the kind of, I don't even know what you'd call it, what lesson you'd need that. but like the humanity side that isn't taught. Like we're not taught how to be humans. You're taught like geography and French and whatever, but like not how to like navigate your actual life. Yeah.

How much percentage wise, roughly I suppose, was like was what you were, the questions that you've been dealing with from young people were they relationships versus sex? Well, often it's really hard to distinguish between them. You've got really clear things around like STIs and condom use, which are very much about sex.

and then you've got things that are very clearly about relationships if you're talking about like healthy relationships or like abusive or coercive aspects of relationships or like how your like relationships outside of romance of like the friendships and family members and communication all that stuff but then everything else is in this grey area if you're talking about porn if you're talking about consent like there's no real way of you tackling any of those subjects without bringing sex and relationships together in terms of you're talking about to them. So I, that's, that's the stuff that I enjoy the most where we're kind of trying to place all of these ideas into our lived world, like having conversations. I think with porn is always, I've just really got a soft spot for talking about porn, but around like queer sex and queer love and non-monogamy is something that I get asked about a lot now. That wasn't something that I like taught in schools. But all of those are kind of really interesting things in their own little worlds, but actually bringing them into the entire world that we live in, I find very fascinating. I always, like, whenever I start talking about this stuff, I have to be wary

and rain it in and be like, I have the potential to like talk about some of this stuff like four hours and I have to be like, okay, Ruby, probably not the context where we're going to like unpack everything in your brain right now. Let's just keep some of it. No, I love it. We want to. But it's not, I feel really grateful that I found like a topic that I just am obsessed with and it relates so much everyone has got their own personal in on all of these topics. Even if you are asexual or a romantic, you're still living in a sexualized or romanticized world. Like we all, this is what we live, like every day.

And why do we not talk about it more? Yeah, I know. It makes me feel bad for not talking about it more. But hey, I'm not here to, that we already have so much like shame and fear around this stuff. Like the last thing I want anything, in this kind of sex positive movement to do is to then add more of that, add like more pressure because it's then not about going, it would be such a trivial way of seeing sex positivity,

which is something that I've felt before and I know other people do, I've suddenly going, oh God, but I'm not having like wild multiple orgasms and I'm not, I don't have like every single sex toy and I'm not doing this. Like that's not what this is about. I think it's a bit more earnest than that of going, sex positivity is about like looking at sexual health, and everything that comes within that as like a human right and like placing that in the world. With that in mind, like just on what you just said, can we talk about porn for a minute? Yeah, come on. What do you want to chat about? Well, I actually, it's only as I'm like now a full adult mother, no less, I'm like, oh my God, there is, there isn't porn.

There hasn't been porn for women, really. Like not made, not in the same way that like, I don't know, the conversation around porn for women, like girls, all of it. I actually find it so coconuts, how we've, coconuts was such a childish way. I love that. I really, I thought that was quite poetic. I really enjoyed it. Through me.

But in a good way, in a good way. I'm totally different. As I said it, I was like, that was the wrong word. But I just, I mean, I suppose so many of the issues, it's not really like, you know, a hot take, but so many of the issues that we deal with in terms of like, you know, growing up is the fact that men or content or consent that porn sets us up so unrealistically.

But I wonder, like, I don't know if things have changed since we were at school, but young girls didn't, or any girls, women did not watch porn when I was at school. There wasn't the access, like, there wasn't the conversation around it. If they did, it definitely wasn't geared up for them. Did you not watch porn when you were a teenager? No. Like literally nothing at all. Literally never. I wouldn't have known how to find it.

Okay. How old were you, both of you? 29, 35. Yeah, so I'm 30. Yeah. We were just having different teenagers. experience. Was I a little fruit?

Hey, and everyone's okay. But I was really curious and I watched quite a lot of porn as a teenager. Like porn hub, like men's. Well, porn hub came, yeah, porn hub came into, was invented, like came about in 2007. So that would have been when we were

like, 13. Yeah, teenagers. But lots of other like free tube sites. And then it was only when I was, I think when I was like 18. and started reading particular, like, blog posts and stuff on Tumblr and Reddit and, like, hearing about stories of, like, sexual liberation from women and being like, this is cool.

Why am I so fascinated by this? Then I found loads of amazing porn that I liked that was, like, more femme-focused, maybe. I think back in the day, it was very much like, this is feminist porn, and I have issues with that as a term now anyway, because I think... A lot of the time when people think like porn for men and porn for women, what porn for women can look like is sort of like rose petals scattered and a bit more like a romance novel. And actually I think there's something really feminist about like filthy sex.

I don't want to sanitise sex. I want it to be able to be explicit and really like real. And if what you want out of sex is something really filthy, then wonderful. But I guess it's more so there's, I guess there's two layers of, porn whenever i speak about it there's porn as an industry in the way that it's made and then there's porn and our relation to it as consumers and like what we see and experience so all regulated porn in the like porn industry in the same way that there's like Hollywood like as an industry is is really regulated like there's there's a lot of protocol and obviously there's some people

doing dodgy shit within that but like it's an industry that has a lot of care and respect in it, but even the stuff that's fairly mainstream within that, when you're watching it as a consumer, you're not getting those messages around like when all of the performers have been tested with STIs and the conversations they've had before about what they're comfortable with doing and what they're not. So I love erstes is a really good independent site and they kind of show a lot of their behind the scenes content of like being sat down with performers and talking about what they want to do, like what turns them on and excites them, but also what they're not feeling that day.

So that, I think, is really breaking the fourth wall of Paul, of Paul. Breaking the fourth wall of porn is really essential, I think, to having a bit more of a kind of critical understanding of it. And it's hard because I think porn is a space. Porn shows us a lot about society in a very explicit way that I think makes us more aware and more uncomfortable than lots of other places where we see it. So the way that race and racism is very prevalent in lots of mainstream hardcore pornography,

the way that obviously gendered attitudes and gender-based violence kind of feed into a lot of what we can see and like mainstream porn, these are things that exist in the world. It's not like I think it's, porn is kind of like a little beacon that's a mirror that like reflects the world back to us. Yeah. I don't think I had, I don't think I was too scared to go looking for porn as a teenager. but then when I grew up I I guess I came into like and I do feel like this sort of like and I am late to it so and you know like I'm not I haven't been in a sex positive space

before because it just hasn't really been my world but I guess this sort of sex positive part of feminism I do feel as fairly kind of it feels like it's become a lot more mainstream with the internet and with social media and it wasn't definitely in my teenage years like I don't think that there was sex positivity as part of my feminism so I wouldn't have necessarily felt confident to, I don't know, I wouldn't, I don't think I, without, without having been experienced, without having experienced sex positivity, I don't think I'd have ever found porn empowering. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I've only come to that later, I think I would have always seen it as something made for men and quite dirty. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I'd have just

seen like schoolgirl get done by stepdad or whatever. Stepfather, stepdaughter. Yeah, there was a real incest trend for a while. Yeah. It's less, it's less incest heavy nowadays. Is it? Is it. Every once in a while I still go on to make because I'm a little nerd so I also go on porn sites to be like what are we what's popular right now like what's happening and there was like a just a few real heavy incest years

which was fascinating of going where I walked away from it really that was where I saw it that was probably the only porn I was exposed to and I thought ugh that's not good and then I never and then I just thought well that's just for pervy men and that's not me and then I'm done and I never bother with it

porn hub for for its floors also does some really interesting interesting stuff in terms of the data that they share and every year they have um they show the like most popular categories in like different parts of the world and in the UK like and it changes a lot of the time but it really tracks with what's going on in the world so for the in the US for example almost every year like the southern states Ebony is a massively popular topic like porn hub search so in states where there's a lot more racism and kind of division between like African Americans and, like, white Americans, suddenly that feeds into, the taboo of that kind of

feeds into the thing that people are searching for with porn. Last year, like transgender as a search term, jumped up massively on the list. So when, now that we're experiencing and seeing loads of, like, transphobia and like queer fear and hatred, that's something that, you know, like, it's not, porn and sex and desire doesn't exist in a vacuum in our lives. Like it really interplays with what we're seeing in the world around us. That's really interesting. That's fascinating.

Proud I got those little. I hope those stats are like fairly right. There's a lot living up in here. Yeah. That's quite depressing. I always thought that like, you know, those that shout that like you'd always hear like those that were the most, and I don't even know I've heard this as probably completely factually untrue.

But like you'd always think that those who were the loudest in their hatred, whether it be homophobia or whatever. And it would always be like a kind of thing. used against them, it would be like, well, they're probably just gay and they're just angry about it. And kind of porn makes it look like maybe that is the case. Well, I think it's, I don't know, I'm not, I'm not like particularly qualified to speak on this, but I think there's something really interesting about how, like, the fear and often the disgust that people are taught to feel about, like, if we're thinking about particular groups, how, how closely that can be linked to

something that might feel like maybe has the potential to feel exciting or sexual, especially when we're taught to think of sex as a shameful thing. And also especially if we're thinking about kind of queer and trans people when like queer narratives are so sexualized. And I think that's a really, like just I think from experience, that's a lot of stuff sometimes of people. I mean, obviously I'm not speaking for everyone. but like I think that there can be a cross over there of if there's people who have like shame or fear or disgust that is then within themselves

like how that then gets like put out into the rest of the world it's a big it's a big topic I'm not like the definitive person to speak to about it but like the way that porn plays into that is fascinating and also like porn has the potential to be really wonderful as well like porn can be really porn can be political it can be really funny and really hot and exciting and gorgeous and it's not just that can be that can look like so many different things like I'm a real advocate for the potential of porn and that there are so many people out there making really amazing porn but I guess when there's so much

resistance to having actual conversations around it and when young people turn to porn to learn rather than having spaces in their life where they can ask questions and there's like adequate and inclusive relationships and sex ed. Like porn is an entertainment source and I guess when it starts to become like the first port of call for education then that's where I get a bit grumpy. Yeah, better enough. We have, we do another episode where people ask us questions.

It's not very good. We butcher all the questions. We don't do a great job. I'm sure that's not true. But we try. We have a good time doing it, though. Wait, that's all that matters. One of the most common questions really is about,

we tend to get this a lot from women who are in heterosexual relationships. And the context is always obviously slightly different, but the general feeling and the advice they're asking for is around their discomfort with their male partner watching consuming porn. and I guess we always kind of struggle to answer this question, don't we? Or like to give any advice on this because it feels quite difficult. So I wonder if you would have anything to say. This is always an interesting topic because it does,

it's segueing into another thing that I speak about a lot of the time, which is non-monogamy and kind of how we design our relationships. because the example of in a relationship to people having maybe quite different ideas of watching porn and if that's something that is like okay within the agreement of their relationship or not, something's gone wrong there when there's not been a conversation before that's happening. I think often monogamy is something that we're all taught to do. That's just like a really integral part of traditional society.

and something that I grew up just assuming that that was the way that you did relationships and there's nothing wrong with that. Monogamy can be a really wonderful thing. It's worked for me in the past. It's not, I'm not like anti-monogamy at all. But I think I feel sad that often it limits us having conversations

about what we want our relationships to look like. So for me, I'm someone who is non-monogamous. I have more than one partner. I have done for a really long time. And what that means is I've had to really think about and have conversations with my partners about what we're building together and what that looks like and how we do all of this. And that can be quite tricky, but actually it's really exciting to be able to design something that really feels right

for me and for my other partners. And so I guess that as a notion is something I want to encourage more people to do and more monogamous people to do because hopefully having conversations earlier on of being like what do you what what are your thoughts about porn like do you watch porn how how are we going to navigate that so it's not it doesn't come up as this kind of surprise and it doesn't feel like that that feeling of discomfort or like betrayal sometimes I've spoken to people before and they've like found out that a partner's like watching porn or like watching webcam stuff or only fans and it feels like for one person it might feel really deceptive or feel like cheating or feel like something that they feel really insecure about

and the other person is like this is just a part of this is I thought this was okay like we'd never spoken about it before but I just assumed this was all right so I know that doesn't specifically answer the question but it kind of the backstory of it I think it's I think it's a really important conversation to have how do you navigate that if you you aren't on the same page um one of you is comfortable watch with porn and with the other with the partner watching porn but the other one isn't yeah well how do you get around that well i think more conversation of trying to under like really trying to hear each other and where you're both coming from so why it doesn't feel like a big deal or why it is an important thing for one person to watch porn like often in longer

relationships we can fall into a bit of a trap of assuming that our partner is our sexuality that like our sexuality is so linked to someone else rather than being our own thing that can be enjoyed separately or with that partner and if you're like you coming together and building something really nice and sexy I'm always a bit aware of kind of when sexuality is seen as something that's like so linked to somebody else because I want us all to like have our own sexual identity and kind of feeling and for the person who isn't feeling with it to be able to share why and maybe to ask questions and so a lot of that can be the fear of the unknown if you have all of these assumptions and like that oh my god this person's

like looking at i don't know i can't think of an example but like there's a fear of what someone might be looking at or there's a fear that it means that they're they're not attracted to you or and i think just being able to like the more we chat the less we've got those like potentials for fear in our brain yeah i think we do project a lot of insecurity onto this comes up for me i I work with the Metro as an agony on and this is something that comes up literally every like multiple times a week and it's like it'll be I think

it's never based in fact but it's always the person saying I think maybe I've been ghosted because he only follows skinny girls on Instagram and I'm curvy or you know he watches this kind of porn and I don't look like that and it's like we assume that because they like one thing and we're not that thing that they couldn't like us

and it's like you say it's not you don't just have one type of thing that every that's it this is all I find sexy this one specific someone probably does but that's very limited like I think if we have our own experience of knowing like you don't none of us have just like one thing that we are attracted to like and what we are attracted to will ebb and flow and change and there'll be certain times that you're really drawn to like I don't know if even if we're just thinking about like the sex that you have that is something that constantly changes and the fear that is behind lots of those questions I guess can sometimes stop us from seeing that in other people that like this is this is varied like this changes all of the time and actually

if we're able to have conversations with each other we can bridge those gaps so we're not like projecting onto somebody else and and the body image stuff is just fucking relentless it's hot like that's I've got questions like that before of like I feel weird because my like my new partner has only has like really tall skinny exes and I'm not that and that is just obviously such a huge issue and like it's something that we've all grown up with and really like stays with us but I wish we could just like wrap that up and bin it because it doesn't serve anyone I think that's the hard thing with porn as well isn't it like that particularly again seemingly well both of us like our limited knowledge of porn as teenagers was like the women

always looked like very slim with massive boobs nimb blonde And that was pretty much like, yeah. But I, so my experience of porn is actually seeing more variety in porn than I was seeing in like the magazines that I was buying as a teenager or on TV. Like it was the first time I remember watching porn and being like, oh wow, that person's like, nipples and labia look like mine because they're more brown than they are pink. Yeah. And like, you know, being able, I think there's something, it's obviously problematic because a lot of these aspects. of people's bodies and identities that are not the kind of full

absolute traditional mainstream they can easily get really fetishized on sites but there's another layer of that of like actually being able to see it like on loads of like mainstream tube sites there's like hairy as a category and actually then seeing people who are like

with body hair that's not something that you see on TV so I hear you but I'm always like I'm just like where else is it it's so nuanced There's no, there's like absolutely no cut and dry with porn. And that's, I think, why I feel so fascinated by it. I think that's a very formative, like my view of it was,

that was kind of like the first experience or first awareness that I had of it. Because subsequently now, I've worked with both bedricaded and with cheeks. And I love what cheeks do so much. I love what both of them do. I think it's really cool. There's a life drawing, a life modelling film that cheeks have made, which is amazing. Oh my God. It's like a sexual fantasy turned, like so the performers in it I'm really big fans of.

it's fucking brilliant yeah my um i keep doing ad to them and the dis like my followers are clearly loving the porn because every time i hear from cheeks like whoa that code flew i'm like you get a ghost like love that no one knows me about it but people are clearly using it yeah there's a real fascination with this stuff so it's really and i think it's so important that like more people can talk about this and share it so i'm glad i'm glad because i i imagine that lots of people who follow you that's like a real new you're like really introducing you're doing the Lord's work there you're like awkward I'm doing it awkwardly there it's like oh god okay guys I know we're all very

awkward talking about sex and porn but I hope you enjoy this and never I know I do cheeks ads as well and then the first time I did it like a few people messaged me being like because I've spoken a lot on the podcast about how like my family were very like we if if if we mention sex we say S-E-X that we can't say the word sex my mum is never actually said the word sex. And she's very, she's from a very traditional Catholic family. Yeah. So it's just, so any time, so the first time I did it, I got loads of messages being like,

this is so brave and I'm so proud of you. I was like, ah, don't say that. Don't acknowledge it. Don't know. Brave. That makes people like, oh, scream. But I think it, I think there is something brave about that. And then, and then hopefully, like, you being able to do that means that the next time

you do something like it doesn't feel as scary. Right. And then for people who are seeing that, it doesn't feel as scary. It's just, it's about normalising this. I keep saying it, but like trying to just dissolve all of that fear and panic that we have about this. And for the body image alone, that's what, like, porn made by women. Yeah. Feels really important.

It's what you were saying before, like not fetishized, actual bodies, like, just to see yourself not as a big deal, not as a token, not as a fetish, just as a, like, person existing. Yeah, I think that's where the change. I really hope, like, and maybe, yeah, obviously it's just happened and I didn't notice because I, I mean, I just had a kid. I'm not watching porn right now, but I'm not going to be honest. Or anything could be happening. She's not a poor era. I'll come back later. Yeah, I might come to it, but right now I am out of commission.

But also there's no, like this isn't something, this is an opt-in thing as well. Like, you don't need to engage with this if it's not something that you are not drawn to or curious about. So again, it's not that pressure of being like, oh, God, I'm sex positive. I'm going to have to start watching porn. Like, why do we create that? You know? It's like if it floats your boat, great. Find things that feel good for you.

Yeah. If it doesn't, you're really welcome to not, to like, for your sexuality to not involve anything to do with porn. But I guess it's trying to find ways to understand why that's important for other people. Yeah. Because that helps with the fear of like that question that you mentioned. If you get it of going, oh, actually, this is, it's really nice. I like watching porn because it's like, it feels quite cheek.

like a little window into like other people's sex lives and desires and fantasies and I think solo sex for me is really important even if I'm in a relationship because it's a moment for me to connect with myself and remember that actually whenever I'm having sex with other people like I'm there I'm like who am I in sexual contexts and sometimes I well sometimes I'll just have a wank because it's what I want to do or I want to get to sleep or whatever but actually having exploring solo sex in a way of going who am I as a sexual being just on my own is lovely and I would encourage people to do that whenever they can. I find that really interesting what you said like our sexuality can become so tied up in someone else in our partner that we don't I thought that's

really interesting and that builds up to like there's a lot of resentment and different expectations that can come from that as well like I've felt that before in relationships of if you really want to have sex but your partner doesn't then like they're feeling feeling a bit wounded or rejected but also feeling very much like your your experience of desire is like yeah that's just so it's like really dependent on someone else's right ability to join you without it's not oh no I don't know I don't want it to stress you out like it's just something just clicked in my brain that's just like you make it all about you like I mean we hear this question all the time and it's like my partner doesn't want to have sex or I don't want to have sex my partner and I feel guilt I actually

think that's one of the ones in there it's about like it is yeah somebody said that we really have to get on to yeah somebody said they said they they felt guilty for not, for not wanting to have sex with their partner. I think it sounds like their partner has a higher sex drive. How to combat low sex drive and the guilt that comes with it slash how to increase. But that's just blown my mind that she, that she, I'm assuming it's a she, because I saw the listeners of like 99%. But that person, we, and this is just so typical of women, if it is a woman, I'm assuming. But like, we're so used to putting other people's needs in front of our own that we've removed the fact that we have to,

to give our bodies to this situation. And then we feel guilty for like depriving us. But it's like, it's like, we don't want to go in a situation that we don't want to go in. And in those are situations we wouldn't now. We've kind of got strong and empowered enough that we wouldn't go into situations that we don't want. But then we do have this like guilt with our partners or with men that we'd be like, I know, well, I'll just lie back and think of England or whatever. And it, but it also happens the other way around as well.

I get lots of people DMing me in like, especially in sort of hetero relationships where it's a woman who feels weird of being like, I have a higher sex drive than my boyfriend. But I've been taught that I should be the docile one who doesn't initiate sex. Like what's that? So you know, it goes both ways. I have lots of thoughts about that. Yeah?

Let's go. So one thing that's really super speedy, let's see how quickly I can do this. Have you heard of the dual control model? No. This is something, it's a really amazing piece of research that Emily Nagoski kind of made internationally famous. She is a writer and her book, Come as You Are,

is like one of, it's like, one of the kind of formative texts in sex world. So for anyone who's curious about this, like, do go and read it. It's shockingly good. But the dual control model is the way that we now think about desire. And the simplest way of thinking about it is that you've got a break and an accelerator. And when we think about getting turned on, culturally, what we're talking about is that accelerator. Turned on, like, these are the sexy things. I'm picking up on them. I'm getting turned on. This is great. My brain is telling me like, this stuff's hot. I think I'm going to be like getting to the mood now. But what we often miss out is the break, that there's

also another kind of part of our brain, part of this model, which is looking out for things to, like looking out for us of being like, oh, actually, is this an environment that's safe to be sexy in? Like, do I need to take the bins out later? Like, can my kid or my parent hear me? like do I feel safe with this person do I feel comfortable in my body all of those things can be the brake setting off and actually it's not about just turning

the on on it's also about turning the off's off like when you're driving you need like if you just slam down both of them like your car's not going to be very happy if the car is the body I don't know where that analogy is going so that's a really

useful thing of thinking about why if someone is feeling resistant to sex if there's something there of going actually do you need to think a little bit more and kind of work on your with yourself and with your partner about what a sexy and a kind of nice happy safe environment feels like to experience pleasure alongside that there's no better or worse in terms of like sexual appetite or sex drive just because someone's might be a bit less or someone's might be higher neither person is wrong so it's to really stop trying to think of your sex drive as

something that needs to be fixed of being like well mine's low his is high therefore mine needs to get better like that's not that's so defeatist like we all need to get better at kind of being where we're at and being able to communicate that rather than really making an effort to change who we are in that moment and being able to speak about it and kind of share with a partner what you are wanting to do in that moment because it might be the case of saying I've had moments like this of going, like, sex for me is quite hard right now. I'd really like to be intimate with you and like if that's us like having a cuddle and like a kiss or like giving each of the massages, but I just don't think that that's going to be something sexual. But what I want is

that intimacy. Sometimes people really crave that and it's more about that than actually the sex itself. But saying this is what I can do like let's, if you're ever kind of in the mood like come to me and we can see maybe I'm maybe I'm feeling it maybe I'm not but that's if I'm not feeling it it's not a rejection of you it's just me and where I'm at in that moment and then that's where obviously maybe for some people this isn't like a complete fix all but maybe solo sex can be a really good thing there of going like it's not not for me today but please off you like you have the bedroom to yourself for 20 minutes like have a lovely time come back down yeah that sounds quite funny to some people but I think just trying to normalise that sexual pleasure doesn't

have to be something that's the two of you. How do you deal with insecurity within that? Because I guess that feeds back to the porn question that we did before. It's like if you feel that you don't want your partner watching porn without you or you feel like there is this sense and I know like in an ideal world we are going to learn that it's not bad, right? But I think we do feel that we men feel that they have to be, and speaking heteronormatively, but like men feel like they have to be giving sex because men have taught, we're taught that men want sex all the time. So men have to have a high sex drive.

And then, you know, we're taught as women that we need to be attractive to the man to keep him. So how do you deal with your insecurity within that? You know, it's kind of good in theory being like, yeah, you just go upstairs and whatever. But if you're still, if you're feeling like a failure or like you're not as attractive as the people that they're watching on porn or whatever it is,

if you've got any insecurity, how do you work with that within their situation? I think we've always, we've always got some insecurity lurking around. like no one's no one's safe from insecurity i oh god this is such a like meaty question no no i mean it's good there's the annoying thing is there's no quick answer to this and i think you've got to be honest with with your insecurities with yourself and be able to chat to a partner about it being able to chat to friends as well because i think we feel so alone in our insecurities and just like

people listening to this hopefully will hear things and feel less alone and not feel like I'm the only person in the world who has these worries because these are really valid. We live in a world that's designed these fears and like put them into ourselves. It's really messed up. I think we should try, oh it's really hard actually to fully separate like porn from solo sex and pleasure because for some people they're like really intrinsically linked. I'd really try to think about your partner wanting to go off and, like, masturbate not, like, as something that he is doing, rather than something he is doing, like, in relation to you. Like, that's not, it's not because you have failed. It's not because you are not hot enough or interesting enough or, like, all of the, all of the things. And maybe you might need some kind of reassurance from your partner that they think you're,

fucking wonderful which I hope they do because so we all need in those moments of insecurity a bit of like time of going actually that that's okay but could you could you come back and just make sure that we're on the same page like do you like being able to say that and not have a fear of being needy just because that's that's like human existence we all need a bit of reassurance sometimes but now I just want to everyone who's got that in themselves like I want to hug that part of myself but also hug everyone like well who who has those feelings because I think that's such a human thing of like just our brains can be real tricky sometimes and like find things to feel quite crap about. And I guess like all

this is just we just don't have the education, do we? Yeah. We're just not taught about this stuff. We're taught that like, well yeah, like if he's not interested in having sex, it's because of you. It's because he's not attracted to you or if he wants to go and masturbate or like wants to watch porn without you, then it's because, yeah, it's just, it's interesting. We're not taught that separation between, like, coming back to what we've said before as well, like, in a partnership, sexualities are not, like, intrinsically linked. Yeah. And it is, like, just everyone needs to be really kind with themselves with all of this and go slow

because none of us learned, I mean, maybe, like, one person listening to this, like, had really good relationship in sex ed growing up. But like, exactly, show me, show me them. But like none of us, we're all playing catch up, but then in this weird way of being like grownups, feeling like we have to know what we're doing and then having this panic that none of us were taught about this. Yeah, and culturally, actually what we were taught,

and I remember this line, and I don't know why it stuck with him, because actually the film came out quite late, but in Wolf of Wall Street, I remember he says at one point, and it's such a specific line, but I love the film, and just fascinated by it.

I watch a lot of YouTube clips of 4th of 4th Street. Why does that, like, why do we care so much? I don't care. I don't know why I'm, I mean, Margo Robbie. That's like quite a good reason. Yeah. Yeah. I don't watch films. Like, really, I haven't got the attention span for them. But Wolf of Wall Street, I watch once a year without fatal.

the poor guy's like the wife at home how basically he's got his wife and it's like three day old raise us double and like she's overweight and she's this and whatever and like and he's basically saying like poor you you've got that at home and it's actually like that I think is what we're so scared of it's like this cultural thing that like the minute you're the wife or you're the one at home we've kind of got this like complete juxtaposition between how comfortable we actually feel with our partners which for me I'm like I feel so comfortable with Alex like I'm absolute like slug when I'm around him like I'm just like he's literally see me particularly his last year through all sorts like and I'm completely comfortable with him but then you hear that's

kind of stuff in yeah like in pop culture and in the in the way that we speak in films and stuff and you kind of can't help it it's like that's what we're taught to think it's like the wife at home is just like letting herself go now she's let herself go yeah and it's like we've got this really big fear and I feel like that's something I don't know worth just like remembering or considering I guess it's got to tie into it don't even how but no I'm I'm I completely agree with you. There's so few spaces to talk about this and examples to see in the world around us,

like in terms of film and media in general, around enduring love. Like it's all about the start. It's like even when you go back to like bloody Shakespeare, it's like the trials and tribulations of dating and then at the end it's like marriage, woo-hoo, done. And actually what happens after that is the bulk of people's lives.

And that's the bit that we don't hear as much about. And I think then we just don't have as much of a roadmap. We don't have things to compare our experiences to there's all that pressure that like, okay, and then you must just be perfect forever. And you'll never disagree and like, sex a lie. Yeah, exactly. All of that stuff. I think we all just need to keep like give ourselves like, what's the phrase?

This is my dyslexia coming in where I can't remember phrases and then I get what. Pinch of salt. go but like I was going to say pinch of another spice I like mess a pinch of sugar I'd love a pinch of sugar okay we can do we can do a pinch of sugar with this one like it's it's so we just need to be a bit easier on ourselves because this stuff is hard like the way that we relate to other people is hard and if we're wandering around with the expectation that we should be like basking in love all the time and everything's perfect we're having wild sex all the time like that's not attainable it's not and then if you're not doing that

but you're being taught that that's what you should be doing that is where all of that fear panic can fester and sit in us and you get the like letting go fear which is just fucking bullshit I know don't you want to relax don't you want to let me yeah I know let's be comfy

let's be comfy like if Alex thought or Dave thought that you were just like holding on so tightly he'd be heartbroken because he'd want you to be comfortable within your relationship. We don't afford men that, like, we don't give them that, like, the kindness. Like, we don't give them the credit that they would be nice enough to want that because we've been taught that deep down they don't.

They want us all like... They want trophy-wide. Yeah, bouncy and... Yeah. When the same is not expected of them. No. Yeah, where's the letting go narrative for husbands? Yeah, exactly.

Well, yeah. Let them keep their socks on, babe. I know, I know, I know. I know. Look at me. I told you, I am. Yeah, I'm Leilada DiCaprio. I'm problematic. I'd say that keeping socks on or not and then the letting herself go, they've got a slightly different way to them. Yeah, yeah. Slightly, slightly. Mind you, I do feel like the day that Alex doesn't take his socks off, I know he has just fully. Let go.

She wants it or she doesn't. You're coming up, mate. Well, we had an absolute ton of questions. for you that we asked for on our Instagram as well. We've got so many questions and we haven't actually got to them. We got to a couple.

Well, we did get to a couple actually but there's one. Let's do some. Let's smash them out. Okay, we'll do, I will try and be speedy as well. We can just like, I think just given what we've spoken about,

I do feel like we've kind of been on a path today within relationships, I guess. Yeah. So there was one that we thought with that in mind, which was about cheating, you know, given as we've kind of had our own insecurity, and stuff and we've talked all about that, I guess the kind of follow up from that is like

if that does happen, if cheating does happen in a relationship, is it always bad and can you get past it in your opinion? Cheating, if we're thinking about it as like, how are we like really distilling? I'm writing about this, right? Well, I'm starting to write about it right now. So I'm kind of like all the cogs are turning a bit. Cheating being something where you're kind of breaking the agreement

of your relationship, that is not an ideal thing. thing to happen in a relationship. Like, ideally, we want to be really, like, staying within the boundaries that we've agreed on and we've created together. So cheating, not a good thing, in my opinion. Hot take. But do I think that you can kind of overcome that, move through that? I think you can.

It's so context-dependent. It depends on every individual situation. Cheating can be, like, you know, a full-blown affair and, like, a hidden family. or it can be like snogging someone on a night out and everyone's got their own versions of kind of comfort I guess so like I have been cheated on in a non monogamous setup like even with the agreement there of being like we've got multiple partners we're sleeping with other people like there there was still a deception there that really really hurt me and so it's less for me about like oh my god but you like you slept with that

person because that's within our agreement. Like I'm I feel pretty much okay about that like unless it crosses the boundaries of what we've agreed on. So it's about kind of defining that I guess for individuals and and try I I I would there's so much fear around cheating we are taught to hold jealousy in such a high regard and it kind of can govern a lot of our romantic relationships. And jealousy is an important thing but I probably think that we hold we give it a bit too much weight so there are some you will know instinctively there are some moments in cheating where like you can't go back from that because trust has been broken and it's really hurtful and like well devastating and it what has been built can't be rebuilt after that but I think there are lots of moments where you could look at something and see see things as mistakes and see things and like there can be. hurt and distrust and anger around those things but there can also be healing if people are willing to have the conversations around it and kind of come together so yeah honesty communication and instincts in terms of if that if that feels possible for you interesting yeah what do you

think I agree with you actually and I think probably until recently I wouldn't have and I think not recently probably until I don't know I always just thought like once a cheater always a cheater leopards spots that thing yeah not a cheetah I just say leopards can't change it spots it spots yeah I always used to think that but then I think the like older I get the like more I look into stuff and like realize that there's like everything is nuanced and like complex and a grey area and I think It's just not like black and white. I've got a friend of mine who's been married for years and is monogamous and we have really interesting conversations around like monogamy and non-monogamy together. We had this great chat where she was like, I don't want to sleep with anyone else.

I really like my husband. He's great. Very invested in it just being us to for a long time. But if he slept with someone else, obviously I would be really, there would be a lot of really complicated feelings around. that but I don't but she was like it would take a lot for that to outweigh our entire relationship yeah like if and and that's not going to sit right for everybody and that's okay I get that but being like really like one one moment just like completely done I think often it's cultural scripts that teach us that rather than being able to sit with it and people really

put themselves and go well if it that were me and I wouldn't stand for that and that's it the judgment The judgment, yeah. The amount of women who say I stay for the kids and I see this rhetoric all the time online and it's just like, your children want happy parents and you, and it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so easy for us to say from here. But we don't know.

Like if you're in that situation and that person could have just honest to God, fuck the fuck up and just hate themselves for it. Or they could have done a really bad thing over a prolonged period of time, not feel that much remorse, but it was because of something within the relationship and they didn't handle it right.

And now they, you know, now they're going to handle it. It could be a million things. Yeah. And it's not for us, but it's so like, I don't know, from the outside in, I feel like we should, everyone should be like, no, you can't come back from cheating. But actually, I really like what your friend said. Yeah. It's kind of like, I don't know, it's a bit sad, but then kind of being in human is quite sad sometimes.

Yeah. And see, and it's beautiful, but there is, like, there is, there is, there is just. I love that that just made you clutch your bump. You're like, oh, God, look, the pain. it just is sometimes humans do bad things it's just like it's not great but you have to move on from it I suppose and also see it again like old is but also seeing it from my perspective of someone who like

for eight years I've been in non-monogamous relationships and so and I'm not I'm not here to like recruit I'm not here to preach about it at all but that I think cheating is always I find really interesting from my perspective of being like yeah okay I there's still potential for deception in my relationships but we've got much more open lines of communication

where that's much less likely to happen and so I can sit with things like there's been I won't I don't want to talk about it in specific details but just like something came up with my partner who I live with recently where I was asking them about the potential of doing something that was like God this sounds like so dramatic

The potential of doing something where I was like, this is a bit of a weird one, but like, what do you think about this? And they, their response, they had, they went away for a couple days to think about it. And they were like, yeah, I mean, I don't know if I, this, it probably wouldn't be my like absolute preference for you to go ahead and do this. But if you did, and I can see, you've explained to me why this might be important, if that's what you need to do, then go and do your thing. and you know we've been together for six years almost so it's not

that's not something that you can just like create overnight but I really appreciated that that it didn't have to be like everyone is completely on board and completely happy there was a bit of grey area

but we kind of trusted each other to hold a bit of that I don't know if any of that's usable because I'm being so dramatic and not saying what it is no no no I like it I do too

yeah because I think that applies like so much of what we've been talking about as well, where we feel like both people have to be exactly on the same page or it's not going to work. And often it's really difficult to be on the same page as someone completely different to you.

So I think that's really interesting as to how you can navigate that when you have different, maybe different views or different desires. I think that's really interesting, yeah, and helpful. This has been great. Thank you so much. Thanks. You were going to have to come back.

Oh, my God, yeah. We've got an absolute shit ton of questions that we did not. I know. I feel like I do. I feel like I got very in my brain then. It was us. It was us. It was so great.

Thank you so much. Thanks, Ruby. Thanks, it's so nice chatting. Thank you. Should I delete that is part of the A-Class Creator Network.