Should I Delete That? - The Girl Who Climbed Everest

Episode Date: February 7, 2022

Al is back from her honeymoon and FINALLY learns of the surprise guest that Em has lined up for her — luckily she couldn’t have been more prepared for this one! The girls also dive back into your embarrassing stories and Is It Just Me’s, and dish out a little bit of advice…Show timestamps:Good, Bad & Awkward - 00:07:25Interview with Bonita Norris - 00:23:17Is It Just Me? - 01:38:12Follow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by MindlerMindler is an online therapy app, offering video call sessions with psychologists. Self-help programmes are also available in the app, covering a range of diagnoses.https://bit.ly/3g1fQIeProduced & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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that's D-E-L-E-T-E you can get one free session. Oh my God, why did I post that? Ah, I don't know what to do. Should I delete that? Yeah, you should definitely delete that. Hi, welcome back from you. Oh, I'm so sorry I deserted you.

I know, so sad. Everyone's that you did really well on your own, but also when's Al back? You did do really well on your own, actually. I was very proud of you. It was really good. Thank you very much. But I am really happy to be back. I was, like, itching to, like, tell you stories.

I've got to save them all for the podcast. This is our relationship now. I know. Milk it for content. And I'm so excited today because today's the day of the mystery guest. Your honeymoon present. I'm so excited. I can't believe you've done this to me.

I have absolutely no idea. My closest guest, I keep saying this because I just don't have a clue. My closest guest is Mary Berry. I don't know why you think. Which is so random. I don't know. It's just stuck in my mind. And now I'm, like, scared because if it is, because, like, I don't like

I don't like, no offense to very, very, but, like, I don't really, like, I would be so scared because I'd be like, oh, my God, I've got to sit through an hour with this guest, and I don't know how a clue what to ask her, because we're like, because I don't know. What temperature do you set the, I don't know. I just, I wouldn't know. So. It's not very, very, very, okay. It's not very, very, very, okay.

It's not very, very, but love Maryberry. She's a national treasure. I love her, but. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I can't believe you've done this to me. It's been a week, and I've not had a clue. I can't believe I've done this.

I can't believe I've pulled it off. Like, I'm not, as you know, the organiser among the two of us. So I feel like the fact that I've done it, I mean, it hasn't happened yet, but the fact that, you know, they're on their way here. Okay. They know where to go. We know that we're, you know what I mean? Right.

I feel like I've done really well. I was saying, like, this is so sad to say this, but like, I don't think I've ever had a surprise, ever. I'm going to say, like, tell me that again, because I will continue. If you enjoy this, I will. I'm really nice. Oh. Like, okay, okay, not like totally nice. The other part of me is like screaming to find out and like prepare.

But the other side's like, oh, I got, like, this is really exciting. Oh, my God, fun. Okay, now I know that. I'm like, what else can I do? You'll tell you what the next surprise is. Actually, I won't tell you. You'll never know. I'm just going to consistently surprise.

This is my fun. This brings me joy. Okay. This behavior brings me joy. Yes. Because I like it now. I'm used to it now. I'm used to it now.

Okay. But you know me. They might get. bigger you know what I mean okay okay like how do you feel about I don't know um like a zip line I really want to go on the long zip line no no see that's the sort of surprise I'll be like fun you just went from like zero to 60 well how do you know you don't know what today is I want I want like controlled surprise is it organized like you're in the harness I think you'll be fine absolutely not no danger I don't think you should ever say never danger if mary berry's ever got a

cooking course on the school with mary berry like that's that's that's that's that's seem safe. Drop would be a fucking surprise. I'm not ruling that out. Shall we kick it off? Shall we? Yeah, I want to hear everything about your honeymoon and I'm hoping that all three good, bad and awkwards

will be honeymoon-related. They are. Stunning. They are, yes. Shall I start then? Yeah, but just actually before you do, can you just tell us how your honeymoon was? It was, honestly, it was so nice. It was absolutely like, bliss. peaceful, so peaceful, I totally, as you guys know, like I totally switched off from social media

for, sorry, I feel like I'm rubbing it in. But not quite from WhatsApp, because like, every time, like, you just kept messaging. I was like, fuck off, Alex. Like, she was messaging in our WhatsApp group. It's like, hey, guys, all that. I was like, go away. No one replied to her and she'll just leave her. That was, like, nice stuff, though.

Like, I was excited because I feel like stepping away, like, got my creative juices, like, flowing a bit, you know, because I feel like they're, you know, when you're just too busy there, for me anyway, they just get stunted. I mean, we literally did nothing. I moved from, like, the bed to the pool to... Sorry. I am such a dick. I know, I know.

It was really nice. And we got on very well, which is good. She's always... Still married. Yay! He got horrendous sunburned Dave, so after day three, like, we couldn't touch each other because he was like... But we're still married.

He was like, you can't touch me. Everything hurts too bad. But yeah, it was just wonderful. So, yeah, and now you're home? And now I'm home. Back to reality. But I was so excited to get back to this podcast, like genuinely. I'm really, really, really enjoying it.

Like, I know it's, it has been a lot of work, hasn't it? But I'm just, yeah, so worth it. It's been my favourite work that I've done. Same. Same. And I'm loving, like, interacting with people in the DMs about it. Like, I can't believe, I put a story up today. Like, I can't believe, like, one, like, people actually listen to it.

And two, that they like it. I know. You know? And they keep messaging me with in jokes. And I know. We have. This is crazy. It's the same jokes for me.

It's when you put up a photo of your, of Dave on your honeymoon, like sat on his own and you were like, Dave and all his friends. And then somebody, and I, in my head, I was like, no more than 10, probably six. And then it's like, in my head I said that. And I was like, and that's exactly the sort of joke that I would say to you, you know, privately. And then you get that DM from somebody else anyway who just like, they're part of, oh. From someone I'd never spoken to before. I was like, that's so cool.

I love that. I love that so much. Still baffled by it. Like, I said, like, as my mum keeps saying, but like, why. but not questioning it and just very much enjoying it. I'm loving Instagram. At should I delete that?

Our lives have just become memes. Funny. Our lives and memes. It's so funny. It's run by Amy, who is at Hey, Amy Louise on Instagram and it's absolutely just genius. So good.

So good. It's like we've got colleagues, isn't it? That's the thing I really love about this. I feel like we've got a real team. We've got Daisy and we've got like Amy and each other and obviously like our managers and like it's really nice. Even organizing today's surprise guest.

like they're all in on it and that's so fun as well like I never just like it's so mean I know it's so good and then the other thing that most people say at the end but I'm just going to throw in now because we've been told that it's important if you are enjoying the podcast it would actually mean the world if you could subscribe or follow the podcast or subscribe and follow please just yeah just you know commit it just makes a difference to downloads isn't it yeah that helps us with everything um okay well that's easy now we can go into the good the bad The good The bad

And the awkward So my good Well obviously my good was there I was on honeymoon But blah blah But you don't need to hear I was so clear And the sound was so light

And I'm still in love with my husband Exactly You don't need to hear any more about that So this is going to sound I'm just going to tell you what the good is Before telling you why it hasn't transpired So the This is going to sound silly to a lot of people

Especially you because you're an avid reader right but I can't finish books like ever like I just cannot do it like I've got so many books I buy books like I buy I buy a book a week easily if not too but I can't for the life of me finish them it just like I feel like it just takes me so long I go over and over each paragraph again and again because I I never take it in so it just takes so long and so much brain work so this holiday I was like I am going to read a book I'm going to go from from front cover to back cover I'm going to the entire book, right? So it's 264 pages. So I was doing like a mental countdown in my head. It was this like philosophy book, which was really difficult, but I was so determined.

And so I was on like page 250 on the last day and I was like, this is going to be my good. I am going to finish a book and this is going to be my good. And I didn't finish it. I was like, I've got a whole day left. I'm going to finish it. It's going to be my good. And then I didn't finish it. 14 pages. And I took it on the plane. And I was like, so I'm going to do it on the plane. didn't happen. I just did work on the plane, so it didn't happen. And then I put it on my pillow and on the three nights I've been home. So like, tonight I'm going to finish it and I'm fucking finished it. You almost finished. Mate, that's huge though, because a lot of books

are 250 pages. Yeah. Loads are shorter. Yeah. There are like, yeah, I mean, 125 pages I've seen books. So you, that's basically two books you've read. Yeah, that's so true. To be honest, it's the furthest I've got for a long time. I'm really proud of you. Thank you. Well done you. I love that you haven't missed it My semi good I'm a semi A child Such a child

What's yours Okay this is really bad Like this honestly Every week I'm like What's the good And on the way here I was like fuck I haven't got a good And then I was like

Look at your life M Like everything in your life It's so good Which was a really profound thought Oh my god I love that I know And then as I was driving

I listened to There's a song A song called Conversations With your 13 year old by Pink. And she says in it about when she was 13 she was really sad

and I always related to Pink because I just did and all of her music and it was so angsty and whatever she's just the best about all of those beginning out like the misunderstood album like oh my God I can't even tell you

anyway this was part this was the second album but doesn't matter the song yeah in it I was listening to it this morning and she basically said like she wants to go back and like hug her 13 year old self

and tell her that she's going to be okay and then I just started crying and I was like oh my God this was so deep I was going to cry again but I was just like if 13 year old me could see me now I'd just be, like, she'd be so proud.

I was like, look at me, driving my car through London to record a podcast, and I'm like, I have a dog and I went for a walk, and I like coffee, and like, I've got my, like, I just, everything. You live in a nice place. I love my life. And I literally just sitting there in the car, I was like, I love my life so much.

Yeah, I just literally, I just love my life so much. It is profound, and I like it. Yeah, it was really, and I was just like crying. I was like, what is happening? So anyway, yeah, I think I'm going through something. I must be having a period in a minute. You're emotional, I was going to say, yeah. But for now, anyway, my life's great.

Come back next week with my uterus lining is just gone. But let's go on to your bad. Let's go on to your bad, please. So bad did actually happen. Well, it actually did happen on the day we were going on honeymoon. So I think it counts, right? Yeah, I know you're going to tell me. So I was, we had like three hours, I think, until we needed to leave for the airport.

And I was just at my laptop, and Betty kind of wandered over to me. and I could see that she was chewing. I was like, what the fuck she's chewing? And then she just looked at me and then looked down and like spat something out. And I picked it up and saw that it was the end of a tablet capsule. And so I ran round to the flat, like a headless chicken. It was red.

So I was like, what's red, what's red? And the only things I could find were paracetamol, but they were like all locked up. So I have no idea. Anyway, I rang the vets. And they were like, yeah, it's a toxic dose for a dog, your size, bring her in. So I, like, flew into the bedroom.

Dave was still fast to sleep, and I was like, get up now! Because you only have an hour before it, like, goes into their system. So I was, like, screaming at Dave and I, like, we went there in our pajamas. And on the way to the emergency vets, I was texting M because I was shitting myself, because I was like, oh, my God, we're going on holiday. Like, what if it's too late and she's ingested it? And it's gone into her system and blah, blah. Anyway, because M's grown up with dogs and I haven't.

So she immediately put me at ease by listing all the things that her dogs have eaten well consumed in the past. And I want to read it out to you because it made me laugh so much. I just need to reiterate before she starts. We didn't feed these things to the dog. This is 27 years worth of hunting on about 10 dogs behalf. This is not all one dog, although the vast majority was by our Dodger who died a year ago today. not because of any of these things at the prime ball date

of nearly 15. We should stress. He got to 15 on this diet, so here you go. Okay, let me read them out. Bua ate like six earplugs when we first got her. Dodger and Echo drank the equivalent of a bottle of vodka. Digger ate rat poison. Wuppie, ate a B. Dodger ate a Christmas cake a year for like four years.

Dodger ate every chocolate decoration off the tree. Digger ate five advent calendars. Didier ate the birth control pills. Bisto ate my advent calendar this year Bisto eats his own shit Digger once ate a whole Frankfurta sausage without chewing it I actually saked it back up as well

and it didn't have any bimarks in it Digger was a fucking legend It must have literally like Inhaled it Literally she was like she was like We just called her like the canine dustbin Because she would like She'd be like all the food would just go in

That's so funny I can't believe it came out with a lot of bimarch I know But when you were like a paracetamil I was like, oh, you'll be fine. You were like, chill out. So dogs eat. Dogs eat everything.

And then Dodger was half Labrador, Echo's fully Labrador. They just eat. They just eat. Yeah, and Betty's the same because she's a hound. So anyway, we took her, she got her stomach pumped. I felt so guilty. And the lady came out and she was like, yeah, no, we didn't find anything in there. Like no traces of any paracetamol or any kind of tablet powder at all.

So I was like, oh, thank God. And she was like, but we did find this. And she opened up. opened up her hand like we'd actually been recording the podcast the night before do you remember i gave her like a donut toy um which she usually treasures like she rips everything else part but she usually treasures that anyway she had basically eaten it so the entire toy um so i felt very embarrassed and i felt like she was judging me a bit the vet but uh so that was that that was my bad what was yours my bad go on oh you know this already i got a court summons oh my god i'm not surprised

I'm not opening the letters. I'm not opening the letters, yeah. I mean, like, who saw it coming? So I told you a few weeks ago, I'm scared of the post. I've always been scared of the post. Nothing good comes in the post. And sometimes good things come in the post, but mostly bad things come in the post.

Case in fucking point. But anyway, it's my own fault, obviously, because I didn't open the previous post. Right. With the penalty charge notice in it. so then it got handed to a lawyer who's invited me to court. Invited me. Yeah.

So that, and Alex opened it for me because he's really sweet. He saw the letter and he was like, he said, I listened to that episode. I didn't know it was such a bad fear, but I'm going to open the post for you. Which is really nice. So then he opened the post and then it's like, but then it's just as bad because then he's like, oh God, the post. And then he's like, and he's being asked to go to court, which is really terrible. I'm not proud. And I want to tell you that this is the first time it's ever happened, but it's not.

This is the second time I've been summoned to court. I love it. Yeah. But like on the bright side, like, you know, you were saying about like having pen pals in prison. Like, we could all be your pen pals in prison. It's me. I'm the prison. It could be really fun.

I'm hoping I'm going to get off. Yeah, let's hope so. Okay. Okay, awkward. Awkward. I'm actually looking at you two, Daisy and M, because this one's your fault, right? So this awkward is a psychological problem, which most of my problems tend to be, purely psychological. So basically, when we were, when we talked about weeing in the shower, right?

And, like, I've done it all my life, okay? Like, I've always done it. I've always peed in the shower. I've never thought anything about it. Never thought twice about it, right? And then you two said that you, you know, you like to kind of stop yourself from time to time because you're worried that it's going to become sort of like a reflex reaction, like, to being in water, yeah? and you won't be able to control yourself

and you got in my head, okay? So I went on holiday and to the pool and I couldn't stay in the pool for more than like two minutes that I'm being like, fuck, I need to live again, I need a wee again, need a wee again. And I now can't shower without just constantly thinking about it like, oh God, it's coming out again.

Is it coming out? Were you weeing in the pool? No, no, no, I didn't win the pool. So I had to get out all the time. Like, Dave was like, are you okay? I was like, I don't think so. I don't think so. Because you just got in my head.

And there's this psychological problem was compounded by how many people DM me after that episode saying oh, I'm a pelvic physio or a physio. Like this is really bad for you to be in the shower. You're ruining your pelvic floor, blah, blah, blah. So that was my awkward

is that now I can't be in a body of water without just wanting to piss myself. So there you go. Okay, my awkward is, I don't know. I'm going to regret telling you this is a really bad thing that I did. It's we related as well. And I'm actually really fucking embarrassed

and it takes a lot for me to be embarrassed. Okay. I was having a weed the other day and I was in a real rush and I thought I need to save time like I had loads I think I needed to have a shower

or something and I was in a rush I was having a way and I was like I'll just take my shoes off while I'm having a wee but then because of my face I can't bend down at the moment because my face is all fucked up so I had to bring my leg

to me my foot to me to take my shoes off so I lifted my leg up oh my God It's worse to stay out of the house But yeah I lifted my leg up

Obviously Just we know The both of Oh my God I was crying And as it happened I'm like What the fuck

It's like Literally like Less than a second It's like I was like Ah Please can we get Like

A reenactment post for the Instagram, people need to see this. As I was doing it, I was like, this is stupid. And then, and I've got the sink just in front of the lips. I just like, we know what I went on the sink? But my head went down, I was like, oh God. And then that would have been one of the things that I quietly took to my grave. But I've started a podcast, so obviously I had to tell the story.

That is epic. That's my favorite awkward. Definitely one of the ones that should have just stayed in your head. I can't even have told you that. So yeah, I pissed all over my bathroom wall. But Alex, this has to end. Oh my God, we're running out of time. In 10 minutes, our guest is arriving.

I'm really nervous. Let me just wipe my tears. I'm really nervous. I'm prepared to tell you, are you ready? I hate the unknown. I'm scared. Like, I feel like I'm shaking. Okay, Alex.

Are you ready to find out who's coming on the podcast? Yeah. Today, coming on to the podcast, is somebody called Bonita Norris, who holds the world record for being the youngest woman on the cross. I'm Everest and ski to the North Pole. Fuck off!

Fuck off! Are you excited? I know her! Fuck off, do you know. What do you mean you know? I don't actually know her, but I know who she is. She knows who she is.

She was 20 when she climbed Everest. She was 22 to 20 when she did her first. 8,000 peak. Oh, my God. I've read a book. Don't worry. I've done the research. Oh, my God.

You've already done the research. Oh, my God. You know. You know everything you can. I've got so much to ask her. I know. I've said today so many times, I would love to meet someone

who's climbed Everest. Oh my God. I feel like I'm going to cry. Yay! I know, I've listened to a podcast with her. Oh, good have you. And now you're going to have to her. Yes.

I swear. I swear, I remember. She's, here's a book. She fell down on the descent. She fell on the descent. She did, she fell on the descent. She fell on the descent and then did a big interview about it. And then she's written a book called The Girl Who Climed Everest,

which I've been reading all week because I had to make up at the fact that I didn't think you'd know anything. And look, you do. But I also knew you'd have all the questions. I have all the fucking questions. I was like, you don't need to research. I was like, you don't need to research. Alex, you've done months of research. This is epic.

This is like way better than I ever could have imagined. She's been so nervous. She's been so nervous. She's been like. Like, no, she's going to be disappointed. I'm like, trust me, she won't. I will not be, I am like, this is like better than I even could imagine. Okay, are you ready?

Because she's here in seven minutes. Okay, okay. I'm so ready. I'm so ready. Oh my God. I can't really. I've got so much to ask her. Like, so much to ask her.

Did she have a time limit on how long she can stay? No, we've got her for four and a half days. Wow. Yeah. I feel like for anyone listening that, like, doesn't follow me, they might need to know that like I'm an Everest, well, like, I'm a climbing obsessive without climbing. Well, basically, yeah, so our hyperfocus is on things, right? Like, that's fair to say.

Like, when you find something that you're interested in, you're, like, deep dive into something. And a few weeks ago, it was Everest, and, like, you literally watched everything, right? And, like, did everything. Yes, but this is, like, a historic hyperfocus. This is since, like, I read a Jeffrey Archer book called Paths of Glory when I was, like, I don't know, super young. And it got me upset, the story of George Mallory,

who may or may not have been the first person to have summited Everest. And it got me obsessed. And every few years, I, because I watch everything and then the obsession dies because I've got nothing else to consume. And then every few years it picks back up again and I re-watch everything

and re-listen to everything. So this is like, I feel like I'm going to cry. This is like so exciting. I'm so excited. I can't believe this. This is gone well. This is good. You want to do something really fun

just before she gets here. Yeah. The two of you have a lot in common. Doing her book. I was like, oh my God, it's Alex. She was also obsessed with Everest. And then look, she climbed it. So I'm just saying,

I'm just saying. Why do I feel like I want to cry? Why is it like, I don't know. This is just like, oh my God, I can't believe. I'm actually meeting someone. It's like, I do not want to climb Everest in any way. Like, I have absolutely no desire to ever step onto a mountain. But it's just something that has fixated me for ever.

Ever. And I've always wanted to talk to someone who's done it. This is epic. Did you enjoy your first surprise? Loved it. I loved it. Maybe don't do any more surprises because it can't get better than this one. You're climbing ever.

Everest next year. Fuck that, no way. We've raised a sponsorship. It's all very exciting. We can't wait. Okay, she's going to be here in five minutes. We need to go together. I'm so excited that you're here. Thank you. So I sent the weirdest Instagram message ever. Can I just say I have been dying with anxiety for the whole week because I've seen all the posts you go, is it Megan Markle? Is it the queen? It was last night. It was like, I have a feeling it might be Mary Berry or someone like that. And I was like, it's just me. I was dying. I was like, I can't do this. All your followers are going to be so disappointed.

But, yeah, so I, if anyone is disappointed, don't worry, I am too. But it's me. The Instagram world wants me. You're in high demand. And I'm so excited that you're here. And since I messaged you and since you've agreed to come on, I've read your book because I'm not as fanatical about Everest. I wasn't as fanatical about Everest as Al is.

And you wrote an amazing book called The Girl Who Climed Everest, which has been insane. And I'm actually really happy I haven't finished it because I want to hear the rest from you and then get the spoilers. Would you want to tell us about yourself, if you could? Would you mind? Yeah, sure. Okay, my name's Benita Norris. I grew up in a place called Wokingham.

There are no mountains there at all. I think the highest point is like 72 metres or something. And like you, Alex, I think I was a bit of like an armchair mountaineer as a kid. Like I liked reading the odd book around it and just thought people that climb mountains were superhuman and that I would never do it. and they were all kind of bearded men with holy wooden jumpers. You know, they just seemed like a different species.

And so as much as like I loved reading about it as a kid, it just was never going to happen. Someone like me, I didn't see myself in that world at all. And I even remember saying to my stepdad when I was, you know, 18 years old, like we'd had a geography lesson about Everest. And I came home and I said, I'm going to climb Everest one day. And he was like, don't be ridiculous.

And I thought, yeah, that is ridiculous. And then, I was at university and went to a lecture about climbing Everest and thought, fuck it, I'm actually going to try and see if I can do this. I was 22 when I got to the top of Everest

and then I've been to the North Pole since I went on lots of other expeditions because Everest, if you've read the book, doesn't actually end up going so well. I heard you in a podcast talking about the way down being more dangerous. Hell yes, it's more dangerous. I have a lot to say about that. Yeah, I have a lot to ask you about that.

Yeah. And so, you know, a lot of my 20s was just spent trying to go off and do lots of expeditions to the Himalayas. And, yeah, and here I am today. Because you were, when you did it, you were the youngest person, the youngest woman to have climbed Everest. Youngest British women to have climbed Everest and then, subsequently, the youngest British woman to have climbed Everest and ski to the North Pole? I think the youngest person to have done both.

I can't find a man or woman who's younger than me to have done both. And if you are a man that's done both, that's younger, don't say anything. Yeah, exactly. That's amazing. How did you go? Like how? How? That's my question. How did you climb Everest? Like how did you go from like Wokingham to like under with no hills or you know what I mean? What did you say? You you was a lecture did you say? Yeah so I was at I was at uni. I think I'd I'd just gone through quite a messy breakup and stuff and I was just like a bit lost and didn't know what wanting to do in my life. I was studying media arts didn't really want to, didn't really know what

next and I guess you know so much is up in the air when you're 20 years old and a friend of mine was just like come to this lecture about mountaineering and we sort of joked about the fact there might be loads of hot guys there and there were not when we turned up at all um though we did marry a climber in the end so like there was love eventually down the road but um yeah and i just listen to this to these two climbers talk about how they just reached the top of everest and how when they got to the top they looked down and they could see the curvature of the earth. And I just thought that was the most amazing, beautiful thing I'd ever heard. And the way they described the climb, it was just like, no mobile phones, no

emails, no distractions from the outside world. Your whole life comes down to survival. And I love the idea of just like stripping everything back and just seeing what my mind and body could be up against on this mountain. And so I left that lecture so inspired, so full of this like, oh my God, I'm going to, I want to climb Everest one day. And then again, woke up the next morning just hung over and I remember like reality just crashing down on me you know this idea that people like me just don't do stuff like this I grew up in Wokingham I've never climbed a mountain and it took months from that day to actually even try and take the first step towards this goal because of my limiting beliefs just you know girls don't do stuff like this

it's not the girls don't do stuff like that but someone like me wouldn't do something like that And then in the end, I just remember waking up one day and thinking I can either go and make my cocoa pops and go and get to my lectures and have a normal day that nothing changes. It was just like yesterday and it would just be like tomorrow or I can make this the day when I actually start trying to make something happen of this dream of mine. And so I contacted one of the guys that gave the lecture and kind of the rest is history. He was really supportive and basically said, you know, anyone can do it. You don't have to be an Olympic athlete. like, really? You don't have to be superhuman?

What? He's like, yeah, you can climb Everest. I was like, wow, this is the first time anyone had said that. And from that point, there were so many men and women who were just like, yeah, you can do this. And it was, so that was the start. I started climbing at an indoor climbing wall, you know, 10 meter high, like plastic wall. And just took it like week by week and built up. Were you any good at it?

Like when you started climbing on the wall? Absolutely fucking terrible. actually like I didn't I couldn't for the life of me work out for like ever how to even do the most basic knots like my brain just wouldn't compute and then once I got it you sort of get it but I just thought I am this

if I'm this shit like how am I ever how am I ever going to get there but you just I just stuck at it and you just like take it one step at time I remember someone coming to tell me that like I had my helmet on back to front and there was a lot of people at first that would sort of snigger and make jokes because I was quite maybe night

evenly open about the fact that I wanted to climb Everest, like that was the plan. And when people saw me with my helmet on back to front, they're like, yeah, good luck with that. And, you know, today actually, when I look back, like, they're still talking about the mountains that they're going to go and climb and all the big trips they're going to do. And they're still talking about them. And I've actually gone and done them. So there is like, you know, certain thing of just keep your head down and be shit, but just keep going until you're good. You said something you wrote in your book about your teenage years and your struggles with your body image and with disordered eating and stuff

and I really want to talk to you about that. But just on the mindset thing, you said in it about how you went on a 46 second run and how it changed your life. And I literally, I was nearly crying reading that because not that Everest isn't the best and most incredible thing in the whole wide world. But for me, like it felt like reading that was like that's where it's. started for you was like this one run was like a change in your entire mindset which obviously changed your entire life and like for me that's just the coolest thing that you can pinpoint like

one really short you know 46 seconds which we'd have all thought was I don't know you would have you'd beat yourself up for that right but in the book it was a most empowering story that you did this like one 46 seconds and then next thing you know oh highest person in the world yeah wish it was like that But, no, I mean, obviously, if you've read the book, you'll know that I had Blumia when I was a teenager. So, and I was really, I was really sick. And when I actually decided to do that run, I was at such like a rock bottom, didn't know where to turn. And that just felt like the being rock bottom makes you realize that the only person that can help you is yourself. Sometimes, I mean, obviously now as an adult, I look back and I wish that I'd reached out for help.

But I couldn't at the time. there was something in me at the age of 17, 16 or something, that I just felt like so alone with having this eating disorder. And I realized that with this horrible rock box a moment of like, I can't actually see how I'm going to get through the day. Like, that's how bad it was. And then I thought, well, I've got nothing to lose anymore. And no one's coming to help me out of this.

No one knows that I'm even suffering from this. Like, that's how, you know, you just don't know what people are going through. and I just decided that it was up to me like there was nobody coming to help me it was up to me and so I got on my stepdad's old dusty treadmill that I think when he met my mum he bought to the house and it was just like there in the corner and no one had ever used it and it actually worked

and I jumped on and I just had to start running because it just felt like an action for me to get me out of my head and yeah I managed to run for 46 seconds or 42 I can't remember what it was now I wrote the book but it was like the biggest achievement of my life at that point it really did feel that way because of where I'd been a few hours and a few days earlier and the the I haven't read the book

but there's this book going around at the moment called Atomic Habits and it's about like doing small things that then have like this rippling effect throughout your day and your life and that was one of those moments for me It was just like, I get off the treadmill and I was like, I've taken back control. Like, I feel like I can do anything now. I don't have to fall for these demons in my head. And it was the start of my recovery, which led to me sort of carrying on running and then running half marathons and then a marathon.

And then where do you stop? So then it was like, okay, well, if I. Those people stop at probably before Everest, like somewhere between 46 seconds in Everest. It's where most people stop. But it's so amazing. Like it's just like the coolest, strongest mind. But I mean, you must have the strongest mind to do what you've done. I think you really do have to find those like depths of yourself of like strength and resilience that you didn't know you had.

And I think to get to that point where you can really hold it together in under stressful situations is because you've been through many of them when you haven't held it together and you've seen the consequences. And like I mentioned at the beginning, like I had a bit of a disaster on Everest. So from there, you just realized that, again, to be strong in the mountains, it's your responsibility. Like, you have to do it. It's the most important thing. And it takes a lot of experience, I guess, took me a few expeditions and years of climbing to learn just how strong you do sometimes have to be. Like when everything's falling apart and you think you might die, you do have to stay really, really calm and just get the job done. And then you can be emotional afterwards, but at the time, you have to really, yeah.

Has you climbed an 8,000 metre before Everest? Yes, I had, yeah. So today I see a fair amount of people, mainly I'd say men, going to Everest with really no prior experience, even on my Everest team, the only two people on our team that had actually bothered to try and climb an 8,000 metre peak, which is there are only 14,000 meter peaks in the world. There are thousands of 7,000 meters peaks or hundreds and, you know, blah, blah, but there's only 14 that go above 8,000 meters.

And that's the key line, because above 8,000 meters, you're going into the death zone. So it's this really important thing where you have to then start wearing bottled oxygen. You have to dress up like this astronaut on planet Earth. It's a whole different ballgame. And the only two people on our team that had actually bothered to try and climb one before were two women, me and my other teammate. and the rest of the guys they kind of turned up and like for them the fact that they'd been on like

a 6,000 metre peak and everything was good enough and some of them had only climbed like to 4 and a half or 5,000 metres altitude and so that was even lower than Everest base camp Was it good enough? No. For some of them it wasn't. For some of them it was but for me I really felt like

I think the standards that women hold themselves too before they try something is a lot higher and you know it's that thing with like CVs you know women don't apply for jobs until they think that was me. Like I had to have climbed an 8,000 metre peak. And that went well. I climbed a peak called Mount Manusloo.

It's the eighth highest in the world. And it was a brilliant experience. Pretty, you know, a lot lower than Everest, so like not as extreme. Reading about your experience on it, like, it sounded awful. Like, and obviously I'm sure it was amazing and, you know, you got to the top

and obviously you went up to go and do Everest. But like, is it like, do you rose tint it afterwards? You know, when you're doing it, it's like this is the worst thing ever. But obviously it's all worth it when you get to the top. Yeah, I say it was a fine expedition. Like it was straightforward in the sense that there were no, like, major fuck-ups. But at the same time, it was the first 8,000 metre peak. I was 21 years old.

It was the first time I'd ever really been away from my family. And I'd never climbed higher than our base camp, so about 4,800 meters, which is the height of Mont Blanc. And so every step was just this step into will my body, shut down now I'm going to get altitude sickness like the unknown was so there in front of me every day and you just

literally don't know what you're capable of like I don't actually know if I can get to the next camp will my body just give up how am I going to get back down and it's that like it was such a journey of discovery in some ways of just learning how

much you can really push your poor body to do stuff that it doesn't want to do and it was so it was one of the toughest experiences in that in that regard but when we got to the top it was just amazing to think oh my god like you know the the limits that we put on ourselves physically and mentally are often nowhere near where they could actually be like it was just it was such a breakthrough moment so yeah it was but it was really tough I mean like hearing huge avalanches ripping down the peak for the first time ever like sleeping in the tent at night and just thinking you're going to be swept away at any

moment and you know it is it is it was crazy for a 21 year old when I look back I realized like how crazy that was yeah but at the time you just you just got on with it that kind of leads me to a question that I think for me underpins like my facet my like lifelong fascination with mountaineering which is very big question is why because I think I have never I don't I'm I'm I'm quite an empathic person. Like I'm quite good at putting myself into, you know, in someone else's shoes. But I have never been able to understand the, the psyche behind doing it, behind climbing mountains. So I would love for you to tell me why, why you, you know, you climbed multiple mountains, like multiple 8,000 metre mountains where you do go into the, you know, the death zone

when your, you know, your body's dying, essentially, like, what was it for you that compelled you to do it and to just keep going with it? For me, the question has always been, why wouldn't I? Like, why not? I don't understand this question of why, because for me, it was always so obvious. For me, I actually found it really difficult

to actually explain why, but it's like, I see a mountain and I just need to, I want to be on it, I just want to climb it. I just, I don't know. That's the only way I can describe it. So then, for you then, is there a distinction between like being on the mountain and summiting a mountain?

Like for you, is it the experience of climbing and climbing these beautiful mountains and being in the mountains or is the objective for you to summit? Yeah, the objective to summit is always an outside pressure. It's always what everyone else cares about. It's what your sponsors care about, obviously. It's what your family that support you. They want you to come home alive,

but they really want you to make a success of it. And at everyone, the media, you know, everybody cares about the summit. for me, I've felt like I've failed on mountains that I've actually reached the top of and I've succeeded on mountains when I haven't. I like that. And it's like the summit is such a false measure of success, I think. So obviously with Everest I had found myself by like cold calling, like hundreds of British companies. I'd found myself a sponsor who gave me 50 grand, which to me was just this life-changing amount of money.

There was so much pressure, obviously, to get to the top. And then I tried K2 a few years ago, and I just got my book deal off the back of that, and they actually essentially offered me, the publisher essentially offered me a summit bonus, which is kind of a thing you don't do, but they're not in that world. They don't really understand.

They were like, we'll give you, you know, this X amount more if you get to the top, because we think we'll sell more books if you get to the top of K2. And straight away, I was like, I'm writing that off. I'm not even thinking about that because that is dangerous. Like people can kill themselves, you know, wanting to get that money. That's kind of life-changing money.

Yeah, so it's something that I really don't care about. It's just about being there, as you say. It's like you wake up on the mountain, you hear the sounds before you open your eyes and you step out of the tent and you've got the most beautiful views in the world. And everyone else, you know, across the planet is getting on with their job, their boring day and I'm here on this mountain. And like I would rather be there than anywhere else in the world. and that's how it feels it's hard to explain why but no that's nice and it's nice to hear that it's

it's about being in the mountains rather than the sort of you know the desire basic I guess to stand on on top of a mountain I think I do I understand that more but I want to I want to ask you like how conscious I mean I am like an incredibly risk of us person I am safety Susan my husband calls me literally like I don't even I don't even like drive a car because I am like um but I So I'm imagining me on the mountain and just being like, just obsessing over everything that could go wrong. And I want to know, like, how conscious you are of, because obviously climbing, any kind of climbing, you know, comes with inherent risks and danger. And, you know, one small step can lead to, like, you know, serious consequences. And, you know, you obviously pass dead bodies on the way up on Mount Everest.

So how conscious are you? Is it in the forefront of your mind, like something could happen to? to me. Like, this is really dangerous. I think as I've got, the more expeditions I did, the less ignorant I was. And I heard someone who was in the military talking about, like, their tours of Afghanistan, like a few years ago. And they were saying, you know, on the first tour of Afghanistan or Iraq, I thought I was invincible. And my second tour, I thought, oh, you know, things go wrong, but they wouldn't ever happen to me. And then my third tour, I realized that something will happen

to me eventually if I keep doing this. And that was exactly. exactly my thing. Like at first, like on Manusloo, I was, I just thought, I'm going to survive. Like, of course I'm going to survive. Now, when I wasn't, when I was on my most recent expedition to K2, I just was, um, every, I was, I was, I was safety Susan. I was really, you know, every kind of thing we did. I was just double checking everything twice and being really careful because, yeah, the older you get, I think slightly the more, the more risk of us I've got in anyway, that's become my thing. But I always, but I always, also think that

you learn that the risk is like a perception it's not an absolute it's not like this is going to kill you or it's not going to kill you it's like your perception of it is like if you've seen 14 peaks with NIMS die

you know he just completely blows open like this whole new level of taking risks and just going out there and doing stuff and you think you realize again that risk can be like this self limiting thing and that what we think is dangerous actually the reality is often nowhere near as bad and the mountains completely taught me that it's just like the one the mountain in here is actually much worse than the actual real mountain it's way more catastrophic and deadly than actually

okay just do it and yeah it's not so scary i guess what what really strikes me about the danger is that you yourself can be as prepared and planned and you can be and you know as an experienced climber as you could possibly be but like the mountain has its own ideas at the end of the day doesn't it and you're you're you're in nature's hands and something could just literally just but how that could happen anywhere I know I know and that's that is how I rationalise it because even that freaks me out and sorry I've had I've had mates I've had friends that have died and they shouldn't have died because of um something that wasn't their fault you know an avalanche or rockfall or something and you start to think well god if it can happen to him and he's

you know a way better mountaineer than i'll ever be then we should not be here like you just especially when you're on an expedition at the time and something happens someone dies you just think what the fuck am i doing here and and i've packed up my bags many times on a trip before and told everyone i was leaving and then you give it a few hours and you realize that okay yeah i could go home and I could get hit by a bus. So I may as well live my life, enjoying this climb whilst I'm here, and just do everything I can to make it as safe as possible. And I always say to myself and, like, family and friends, you worry about me,

like, I will never take step up the mountain if I feel like it's beyond that level of accepted risk for me anyway. So it's worked so far. I mean, I'm still here. Yeah. But you had, you did fall on the dangerous descent from Everest. I remember hearing you talk about this on the podcast. Was it the Hillary step that you?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really want to hear about it. Can I just ask something before? You said before that it's not all about the summit, right? Like, and it's all about the experience. And I guess, like, I wonder if there's any ego in it in the summit bit. Because you talk about, like, you know, the difference between being a female,

well, kind of, you know, you can recognize, like, a bit between men and women and, like, the preparation that you do it. So I wonder, like, with the summit, is it, to an extent, any, go exercise in that the summit do you think for most people the the goal so they can get the picture on the top and then that's why it's more dangerous on the way down because you're a bit more complacent or not I guess I can't really speak for anyone else but me I mean I don't go to a mountain thinking oh you know like we'll just hang about and have a you know nice time and take some photos like I'm going there because I want to try and get as high as I can and and I guess

that's just like the way the human brain is we just want to get higher, further, see what's, you know, see how far we can get. And so, but definitely there's so much ego involved. Even for me, there's ego involved. Like, for me, as a woman on the mountain, I was always climbing with guys constantly surrounded by these big egos from all over the world, you know, like, there's never been a, you'll never see like a bigger bunch of egos than in the mountaineering world.

Yeah, and, oh, God, yeah. I keep thinking about the, this is all the questions I have for you about being a woman up there, because it just, it seems so like, It's like gym bros, but like mountain bros. Yeah, it is. And, you know, but they also, there's this like level of, because I've done this mountain and this mountain and this mountain,

like I'm therefore better or I'm just like, there's this whole. Really. And but then that's a generalisation because there are also, like I have climbed with some of the most lovely, generous, kind-hearted people and I've been the bigger ego than they have. So it's all different, but there's definitely a concentration of like those climbing bros.

I love that term. I'm going to use it from now. But there's also this concentration of, oh yeah, that's the CEO of CNN. That's the managing director of J.P. Morgan. Like, there's all these really rich guys that come out there from the corporate world who are just, like, totally wired in that business world.

Like, what to get it done, got to get it done. And you're just like, oh, my God, you know, this is not what this is supposed to be about. And I think... Because Everest is a lot of money, isn't it? It's a lot of money. Yeah. But actually, like, that's... And it's so irresponsible.

because a lot of, like, I'm guessing, like, most of those people aren't experienced climbers. I probably haven't done that much before. And then you're putting lives at risk, like the Sherpas and, like, other people on the mountain. Yeah, yeah, it's a really funny one. I can't imagine for me, like, I do remember being on Everest in, like, they were saying, oh, yeah, this guy from, he's, like, top of ESPN or something like that. He just would helicopter into the mountain climb a bit, and then he'd get a helicopter back to Catmandu, so he could stay in a five-star hotel.

That sounds nice to me, actually. I was just like... This is how we get Alex up Everest, everybody. I could do that. I know there's me sort of like putting a down on it, but actually, yeah, five-star hotel would be lovely after. No, but I just, for me, like the whole, as I said to at the beginning, like the whole experience of being there on the mountain,

like waking up, hearing the sounds, like being part of it was just... So I didn't really get that, but for him, that's his decision, that's the way he wanted to do it. Do you feel like, because I know, like, I saw, I know nothing, But I saw the 14 Peaks film documentary and obviously your man took the photo of the really famous traffic on Everest or whatever it is but I wonder like

because I mean Everest belongs to everyone right I mean particularly to the Sherpas and the Nepalese people but I mean does it feel like I mean how can you answer because the mountain's not yours but I wonder if there is like a feel of like it's too much or like it's too commercial and does it just take away all the like magic? It does. Definitely seeing that photo was kind of like, oh, it got wrenching.

I was just really, I felt really lucky that I wasn't in that picture because if I'd have just woken up with this dream a few years later, that could have been me. And I knew people in that queue. And I felt for them because they had wanted it just as much as I had. And then to actually get there and, like, just be standing in this massive queue for hours. This must have just ruined the experience. It's not like that, like, all day every day.

It's not like, like, like, open towers, like, we're all. Just waiting for splash mountain. So what had happened there was There was a delayed weather window So when you're climbing up to like the death zone Above 8,000 metres The death zone is essentially there is so little oxygen up there It's something else

It's like even reading in your book I'm like this sounds awful It's because you start to die when you go above 8,000 metres There's no such thing You said about your tummy not working when you were up there Like your tummy stops working when you're up. Yeah it dies doesn't it? Oh not dies but like

I see it. Dyes! It's all right. but doesn't the oxygen like go to your like all to your brain because it needs just help absolutely so above 8,000 meters there's so little oxygen I think it's like 30% of what we have at sea level so your body goes into this survival mode and it slowly starts to shut down and you'll eventually die up there there's no there's no acclimatization there's no adaptation up there but it does go into like this survival thing where it's like right your brain needs a constant supply of blood

that's the most important thing so we're going to divert all the blood from your body to your brain and that means your stomach is like seen as the first thing to go it's like we don't need that right now and you can't digest food so even when like

I love my junk food I love you know Mars bars and then what was an exciting thing about going to Everest was like we are going to eat all this amazing food on the mountain and I couldn't eat any of it like if you'd have shown me a custard cream biscuit at the day before the summit, I would have looked at it.

And I know that that is going to give me energy to get to the top. And it's the most important thing. But you are just, you feel so nauseous and so sick. But you do learn. Again, it's one of those things where you learn to kind of just get on with it. Like, it's not a question you have to do it. Is there another way of like consuming calories? Can you, so you've got energy?

Is there anything you can, if you can't eat? You just have to eat. You just have to do it. Even though your body can't really digest it properly, you just have to get something in. and it's just, it's, in some ways, it's like, yeah, one of the more tricky parts in the tent. But the amount of the climbing is actually in some ways kind of nicer and easier than what you go through in the tent sometimes, like getting your tired, blistered body into like boots and a thing, you know, the big suits we have to wear and it's trying to sleep up there when everything is just soaking wet, nothing, there's so much water vapor in the tents

because you've got four of you in sleeping together and so all your breath and sweat, like freezes on the tent walls and then melts in the morning when the sun comes up. It's just like, so you're covered in all this stuff and you're soaking wet and then you're trying to eat a biscuit to give you some energy to leave the tent that you're like, I just can't wait to get out and just start walking. Yeah, at least in your purpose and you're going. Yeah, you sort of fester in these tents. Yeah. We got distracted. Sorry. That was my bud, but the, um, the, um, the, the, the, the, the, um, the, the, the, the, the queue, I, I didn't have to queue, which was really lucky. I think I'd just climbed it a few years before it went totally nuts up there now it's just like a different

level there wasn't there wasn't a queue but how do you know until you're going to get there but anyway the reason that there was a queue was because up at 8000 meters and above you have the jet winds basically like you know the really strong winds that sort the global weather out and when the monsoon rises over India in the spring this massive monsoon weatherfront force is the jet stream over Everest away by about 10 miles it like just nudges which is I know this is getting very technical but I find all this so fascinating and so there's this window of calm when the jet stream is pushed away by the monsoon but then the monsoon is coming so the snows are coming and so you've got like a few days really when you can actually climb to the top and it's just this magical

window in like the real kind of planet's earth's like weather that you can actually get to the summit and I find that fascinating and that year when that cue was pictured it was just a really late weather window and people were just desperate so everyone went at the same time yeah yeah which normally doesn't happen I know nothing about I'm so late to this I really feel like I'm just like you guys know so much more about this stuff but it felt to me a little bit like you know what do they say about like you moan about traffic but you have to remember that you are the traffic like when you know and I felt for him like because your man put the picture up and it's kind of like traffic on ever it was a bit like sarky like oh traffic on Everest and it's like you're there too

and everybody's there so it's just like do you have to I don't know I'm sure you can't answer this but I mean like it just it feels like I think it was important

for that picture to come out because I think it's up to governments and the court the big sort of not corporations but they are these commercial companies that run

exhibitions on Everest to actually wake the fuck up and do something about it because it's really dangerous you have to come down pretty much the same rope so if you get to the summit and there's a hundred people

on that rope there are some really steep sections on the Hillary step I know that and you know if I'd have had to have like been climbing over people to get back down if you were in an emergency if your oxygen broke or something like people die because there's cues and I just think I hope that something changes on that mountain

but there's so much money involved and it's you know it's changed the lives of a lot of the people that live around the mountain you know they've got they're really into the tourism industry now and you don't want to take that away from them but there's got to be a line where you can't just keep... Better regulation.

You can't just keep taking more and more people every year. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so much asking. I'm trying to, like, order it in my head. I'm trying to, like, order it, like, up the mountain and then back down again.

Yeah. So, I want to know, like, I really want to know what it feels like that, like, when you go above 8,000 meters. Like, what does that... Because, like, I think I said to you, I went to Yosemite a few years ago, which is, like, hardly off the ground,

and I couldn't eat your sleeper for a week. and I literally, going upstairs, I was like, so I can't, I didn't sleep for like a week, I didn't know why, and then we got back down from like, probably like 70 meters, I was fine again. So I can't imagine going up. I mean, obviously you have the acclimatization process, don't you, where you go up and then back down,

and then you go up to sleep in the camps and then come back down, but what does that feel like when you've got only got 30% oxygen? like you you did bottled oxygen right but still like what does it feel like i just can't imagine i you know i think it's like childbirth i think you really quickly forget the pain of it but um once just before an expedition i was going away and i i got really bad flu and i was lying in bed like unable to move and i and i was like oh i know this feeling this is what it's like being in the death zone it's like when your whole body is so exhausted that you can hardly get out of bed and then you've got to put on all of this equipment, this really heavy pair of boots, this big

one-piece suit, which is like a duvet, which, you know, weighs quite a lot, and then carry this backpack and go out in the dark, in the middle of the night in minus 40 degrees and climb to the top of, you know, Everest or something, when you've got flu. That's kind of how it feels. Oh, it sounds awful, doesn't it? Absolutely horrific. I remember struggling, you know, you have to take a break between putting your shoes on because it's such a strain just to get your shoe your foot in your boot and then lace it up that you have to then lie down because your heart rate my heart rate I think was probably about 150 beats a minute just from putting my shoes on it feels like you're sprinting on a treadmill and and then like trying to breathe through a straw

like there's no there's no air there's no air and when I remember getting the oxygen mask on for the first time. It's really claustrophobic. Every time you inhale, the mask sucks onto your face. And I just remember feeling like it was like having an octopus like splattered over my face, like sucking onto me. And so you want to rip it off. Your instincts is just like rip this off. It's so quite so then there's no air out here. So it's so counterintuitive to keep it on. But it's all those things that at first, it's really tough. But, you know, my most recent times of being up in the death zone, I've had to be like, are we, surely we aren't, because I feel, I feel great now, I feel fine. And so your body is amazing adapting and like, yeah, definitely on the first few expeditions,

it felt like, I was, I was dying, essentially, but on the more recent ones, it's definitely felt like, oh, are we here? Okay, great, you know, clearly. I doubt, I doubt it would be like that now, I haven't been away from it. So it's like muscle memory then, your body, like, definitely, yeah. I've done this before. Yeah, and it's, and it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, It's weird, but the human body had, like, the ability of it to, like, just react to what you put it through is incredible. And I'm in ever just awe of it, especially the way I treated my body and hated my body when I was a teenager.

And then to actually go and do Everest. And I remember getting back to the hotel after the expedition was over. And I remember going into my hotel room and I'm dressing for a shower for, like, my first shower in six weeks. and I had this body suddenly that I didn't recognize. I hadn't seen it. It'd been under layers of clothes and it had done so much for me. Like it'd gotten me to the top of the world

and it was this emaciated skinny thing and I realized that it was the body that I'd wanted as a teenager when I had bulimia and I just felt so bad for it that I'd like, that I'd punished it so much as a kid and then I actually got it by accident really by like putting it through hell on this man. mountain and hadn't seen the changes going on the whole time that hadn't been aware there's no mirrors there you know you just don't have a clue and then I was like oh my god like you're

amazing you're like to my body but yeah but you know like that that emaciated stay did not last more than like the first few days oh yeah I woke up the I'm avarance I know I woke up the next morning after like the first night back in the hotel and I woke up and I was just surrounded by the detritus of the mini bar like I love everything empty packets of bringing you to it I love everything like empty packets some fringles everywhere, but, yeah. Can I ask you a gross question? Yeah. Did you stink when you finally took everything off?

Well, that's not as gross as some of the questions I have, to be honest. Because if you haven't, it's fine. Like, if I hadn't showered for six weeks, when you're, when you're in the, yeah, when you're at altitude there's less oxygen, so there's less bacteria, so you tend to not stink, but some people really stink, yeah. Like, we do stink, but we all stink. And also, you don't stink as bad as you probably would if you're at sea level. Okay, so it wasn't like, oh my God, like, help.

I think you get to a point of stinking where you just no longer know, like, you just stink. So if you stink, like, anyone, I don't know. I do remember coming back from my first trip, my first expedition. I got the bus back from the airport, because I think I'd, like, forgotten to tell anyone that I was coming home. And I was on the bus, and I knew that I stunk. Like, I really stunk, because I hadn't washed any clothes. And I realized that everybody had moved away from me on the bus. Really?

And it wasn't, like, people were actually sort of. getting up and moving away. And I just thought, yeah, okay. Fair enough. I just have a shower. Okay, so I can't imagine, I mean, this, this whole trip, like it costs a hell of a lot of money, right? You put your body through all of this and the time as well. Like, it's a lot of time, right? And the goal, like, you know, I guess you were saying before, like, it's not necessarily the goal, but it kind of is, like to summit. And you do want that moment, right? It's a proud moment. And so in my head I'm thinking like is it euphoric? Is it this

like wow I have done this I am literally on top of the world or are you just thinking like shit I've got to come down now yeah that's pretty much it is we were on the top for 10 minutes really after two years of work we got there and I

I just I was there with my Sherpa buddy who Lakhpa Ongju who was just so amazing guy like we're the same age and by the time we got to the top of Everest he had already had two kids and climbed it four times and I was like I feel really inadequate but anyway so we're there and so I remember kind of that hug you know that was amazing feeling but the emotion was relief it was this tidal wave of relief because after all the risk and the not knowing and am I going to die am I going to full fat on my face am I going to never make the top you just have all

these what-ifs what-ifs all the time and you never really think you're actually going to make it like it's Hollywood movies don't happen to people like me and so to actually get there I just felt this like massive wave of relief and also like I'm so thankful that I trusted that gut instinct that little kind of stupid little flame somewhere that was like the one thing that guided me to keep going when I had some really low moments like trying to find 50 grand to pay for the mountain to pay for the expedition was was like took me nearly a year to try and find that money so I could go on the actual trip and there were so many times then where I just thought no one's ever going to give me this cash you know I'm not fit enough like all this stuff and then on the mountain you have all this

different kind of fears so yeah to get to the top it was just like fuck I was right to trust in that that gut instinct I was right to to go after this crazy dream and and so it was yeah it just sort of blows you on blew my mind open really but I didn't feel proud until I saw my teammates on the top and one of them Rick he took out this t-shirt that he'd drawn on at base camp and it said like a message to his sons like our dad's on top of the world and I just like burst into tears I was so proud of him and I couldn't believe it I was like oh my God Rick's like climbed Everest

and then I had to keep like checking with myself like you've done it too but it wasn't did you leave anything there on the summit or I didn't leave anything but I did I have actually brought something to show you. I've got some rock. No! Oh my God! So this is a piece of rock from as closest to the top as we could get because there's actually no rock on the summit.

Oh my God, that's so cool. So this is rock from the Hillary Step. But no, you take your photos. Some people take snow from the summit and I think Bear Grills took snow water from the summit and kept it and christened his children with it. It's just such a lovely idea. I didn't think of that at the time.

That's cool. Really annoyed with myself and missing out on that. That's huge. So people do, some people do bury, I think one of my teammates buried like a little trinket on the top. I didn't want to leave anything there because it's like there's enough like stories about trash and Everest as it is. So I don't really want to like be burying all of my stupid shit on the top. Did you see the curvature of the earth? Did you have that full circle moment?

Well, we did at the sunrise. We were just about to climb the Hillary step and the sun first over Tibet and rose because we climbed through the night to get to the summit for just after sunrise so that we'd have all that daylight to get back down again because we all know that getting down the dangerous bit so you need to have daylight.

So we climbed up in the dark and then the sun came up when we were on the Hillary step which is like this famous rock wall. It's the last kind of gateway to Everest summit really. It's really dangerous, really steep. and I was just about to start that and I was quite nervous and then the sun just like burst over beneath us like you're looking down on the sunrise and all of the mountains around just turn this like luminous pink and it's the most amazing colors and I remember like the snow around my feet turning pink and just like this fiery colors and then feeling all the warmth on my cheeks and that was amazing and then you can see the curvature of the earth kind of illuminated by that and on the other side of the mountain and you could turn around and it was still dark and you could see like incredible stars

and then sort of splitting night and day and half was this pristine white or pristine like beautiful pink fiery summit. So it was beautiful but yeah it was I mean the curvature of the earth in some ways was like gorgeous to see and very emotional but climbing through the dark we were looking down on thunderstorms thousands of meters beneath us

like you're in the world of the gods up there. I can't compute that I know I can't compute that because the rains in the sky how you were above the sky. Exactly. Did you climb through a cloud at all? Yeah, yeah. We mean, really low down, we would climb through clouds.

Is that like base camp? Clouds. Yeah, yeah, even lower than base camp, you can get clouds. My mom climbed to base camp. That's cool. Yeah, it is. Like two years ago, three years ago. Did she like it?

Yeah, she's the type that I was like, I know what will happen. I know she'll look at that and be like, I can do that. Yeah, like, she's done. And she absolutely could. I'm sure of it. She did her first Ironman, age 50, and she's 21 every year since. For sure, be able to climb Everest.

But she's terrified of heights. I can't even climb a ladder. Probably not ideal. Honestly, I was delighted. Because I was so scared she was like, I'm going to go to, you know, even with base camp, I was like, if you go up there and you like the look of Everest, I don't trust you, not to be like, oh, fuck it.

That's a little extra. Yeah, exactly. You got spare oxygen ball on anyone. Then I thought at least she's scared of heights, so she won't do it. But yeah. So we got that. moment, but when we actually did get to the top, we were in a cloud, total white out.

Like, there was no view at all. So that whole thing of wanting to get to the top and see the curvature of the earth did not happen. And people are like, oh, does that disappoint you? And I'm like, well, look, you know, there's no certificate when you get to the top of Everest. There's no gold medal. There's nothing. There is no view even sometimes, but that you don't care about that because you are there with this group of people who you started the trip as strangers and by the end of it, you're like family standing on top of this mountain and just to like be there with them that was the best thing and to know as I said that you've done it and that relief so yeah that was it was incredible but you're there for 10 minutes and then it's like oh shit we've got to

get back down yeah because just thinking about like now I'm shitting myself thinking right one summit and we've got to do the dissent and you don't have like it's it's harder right the descent because you're tired yeah it isn't isn't it's a lot easier because gravity's on your side now so we would literally run down the hill the slopes that we would spend hours toiling our way up which is amazing yes pretty much you'd like my knees can't handle like outside of a bridge we when you're that desperate to get back to base cam and you're already in so much pain like what's a knee break yeah yeah yeah um but yeah i won't even run for the bus and you're running down everett that's insane but that by that point you're so excited like you've got to the top you've got it in the bag

you just want to go to base camp and I was aware as well it's like dangerous up here let's get back down so we were lack for and I were we sort of didn't rush but we were moving really quickly back down the mountain overtaking loads of people that were sort of slumped over exhausted I was like what the fuck are you doing you know everyone's got to get down we've got to get down like all I'd heard is you need to get down as fast as you can and I think I got a bit pissed off going down the peak because we were having to climb around so many people that were just sort of like chilling and slumped over and and And so I was like, oh, God sakes.

And picked up this duff piece of rope, which I didn't realize. It wasn't a duff piece of rope, but it was trapped around a rock, a boulder. And when I picked it up and sort of launched myself over this edge, this rope then came free. And all of this slack came into the rope. So what I was expecting, you know, as I pulled on it and launched myself over the edge to come tight, it didn't come tight. It just kept going. And so then I'm suddenly falling. And there's at least 1,000 metre drop one side.

I think there's like a 2,000 metre drop the other side. So you're not, you know, you've got to land on the Hillary step still or you're going to die. And I did, thankfully. And I sort of bashed my back, my neck, I sort of really slammed into this rock. Thought I was fine, sort of stood up a bit shaken and carried on. And then it was about, I don't know, an hour later that I realized that I could. can't move. I actually can't move. Really? Yeah, I can't move anymore. Like my whole, my neck was in absolute agony,

like my shoulder. I couldn't, every time I even tried to lift up my leg, I was getting like stabbing pains all up my spine. And I just couldn't hardly move anymore. And I remember saying to my, to LACPA, like, I can't do this. And we just, we were then, like, I was then that person slumped over. And all the people that we had overtaken on the way down started to pass us and eventually like the last guy came past and I realized that it was getting dark and the clouds had all come swelling in and he basically like this this American guy he gave me some paracetamol and was like good luck and suddenly we were up in the death zone on Everest completely on our own it was getting dark I know it's literally like oh I see that shark right here's a

plaster here's a jelly yeah well at least he stopped that's how I feel about it like so many people just walked on. But yeah, and then I just like, now, like, my God, we were literally in our own disaster movie. Like, I could not believe that it had gone from me achieving this dream. I was on top of the world. And then it had all gone so wrong so fast. And Lackpa at that point when we were up there on her own,

he just grabbed me at the shoulders. And I could see the fear in his eyes. And he was like, if we don't move, we will die. And that was like the kick up the ass I needed because I was like, I cannot kill Lhappa. I'm not going to be responsible for his death. And so I was just like, we need to get down. And with his help and with my other teammate, Rick, who I didn't realize,

but he had realized that we were, like, far behind. And so he waited and he helped as well. And we got down. But it could have, you know, if it wasn't for lack of saying, like, giving me that shake and being like, pull your shit together, that's when I realized about the whole thing we said earlier, like, you just, it doesn't matter. how exhausted you are it doesn't matter how emotional you are you cannot you cannot let that overcome you have to still be in control and yeah so we got we did get back down to camp at like

11 p.m and we'd left our tent at 9 p.m the night before or 9 or 10 p.m so I'd been out in the death thing for like 24 hours and were you physically okay or like injured what what happened when you felt so I don't know basically I never really got a diagnosis for what happened, but I just properly sort of bashed up my back, my shoulder. I didn't break any bones, but I think the pain felt like it might have been the trap nerve or something had happened. But the next morning when we woke up, this other guy gave me, like he just, I just remember him pouring this like concoction of tablets into my hand. They're all different colours and shapes and sizes and I just want like chucked them in. And then as I climbed down,

the mountain was just like rippling and moving and I was completely odd. And it was the only thing that got me down like basically because the pain as soon as they wore off I was in absolutely agony and could barely move again but yeah I had to climb down on my own I guess you can't check if you're bruised like you can't someone look at my arm because it's cold

yeah I mean I was I did have a little bit of bruising but it wasn't I think there was something that had like I had caught like there was a trap nerve or something had like gotten I don't know Nicked inside my skeleton. It was just, yeah. That's so scary. Was everybody else on your trip, okay?

They were. I mean, because they were out so late with me, you know, some of them got a bit of frost nip, frost bite on their fingers. Like nobody got any sort of issues, but when we got back to base camp, there was this huge party, obviously. And the base camp cook, he'd like made a cake.

How the fuck do you make a cake at five and a half thousand meters at every space now? I don't know, but he'd managed to make this cake. And I just was there, like, oh my God, I really don't feel like I can even be a part of this celebration. And then after that, Rick took off his gloves and he had frostbitten fingers from helping me. And I just, it was like the worst thing in the world. I was like, I can't believe I've given you fucking frostbite. I can't, I can't believe.

Like, I felt terrible. And from there, I just left Everest and I just felt like completely broken. and I was just, I put my teammates at risk, I could have killed LACPERS, you know, I gave Rick Frostby. It was just, it all just felt like the biggest failure that you could possibly imagine. And I don't want to look back now,

I can see, you know, that there's loads of people all the time that have disasters on Everest or not even on Everest, but they fall and they need help. And I've helped people that have needed it as well, and I've never regretted helping them. But when you are like, I was sort of 22, doing this by myself didn't really have anyone to kind of talk me through it all I just felt really guilty and got back home to this like massive media frenzy being in all the I'm so glad

that social media didn't really exist but like front page of every newspaper and on the news and people at the airport taking photos of me and privately dealing with this feeling of like massive failure but being like branded this huge success at the same time and then going on to being like highly sexualized by the media and like I listened to your podcast and about with Jamil Jamil about like building women up and then tearing them down that like totally happened to me as well really um and having to have this very public suddenly no one you know you're working for all these years towards them no one gives a shit you know I couldn't get anyone to pay attention to me I couldn't get anyone to give me any sponsorship no one wanted to

know me because I was a nobody and you come back from Everest really needing time to go and heal and like figure out what happened and suddenly i was just everyone else's property and it was it was really weird to deal with um which i'm only as like a 30 year old woman like starting to realize like how fucked up that was you know at the time but um yeah yeah because did you say sorry sorry sorry i think i made that up that um the media like really over sexualized you yeah oh you did say that sorry sorry i'm sorry did i make that on my head sorry yeah it was like Everest girl for like all of this stuff and and I I remember the son wanted to do a photo shoot with me and this is so naive and I went along thinking like it's going to be a nice

like they're going to take a picture of me and then they're going to do the interview next to it and at one point the guy said the photographer said can you just put your hands up like like above your head and I didn't think twice about it and that's the picture they used and it looks like I'm sort of doing this kind of bikini pose almost because I've got my hands, I've got my head, and they printed it, and I was just, I was like, oh, I can't believe my, like, my parents are going to say this, this is awful, you're just not what you want, like, that's not what I'd gone into this for,

and so, yeah, like, it's just a great, like, you've just climbed the fucking Everest, and it's just like, oh, but she's a woman, so, like, like, yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, would they have done that to a guy that climbed Everest? Well, you imagine Rick with his hand on said, like, no, just, no, they wouldn't have done it and they wouldn't have tried to you know that even the headlines that like the captions for pictures and everything we used was just way overtly sexualizing and I that was not what I went into this for at all like I just wanted to go and climb a mountain but it's so I've never thought about that you

never seen like Ranald Fein's like you know showing a bit of leg like that's crazy it's so it's so it was so irritating and also it's quite it felt demeaning because there's so much misogyny in the climbing world because of our heroes like Ronald Fines and like oh look at her like who does she think she is like putting her you know getting her tits out in the sun not I did get too much off for anything but but also those are the way that's fine but I need to ask about like the misogyny in the climbing stuff like is it like I obviously I'm not doing anything like mountains but I've done a lot of cycling and I've done a lot of it with military

charities and oh my God I've been patronised like so much because I was like 18 when I start and I'm you know shit obviously I wasn't doing a lot but I just did a lot of charity bike rides and I was really patronised and that's a bike ride and that's not Everest and I it annoyed me so much because I just don't talk to men like this and there must be so much of that for you like is it really do is it really patronised not all of them obviously but just generally the culture does it feel quite patronising I mean I think it's amazing that you actually were able to see that you were being patronised and that you wouldn't you wouldn't have been treated like that if you weren't a woman.

Yeah, but I was born, like, I was born this angry. Because when I was there, I just thought it was like, there's so much banter, there's so much piss taking all the time. And I just thought that that was, you know, I deserve, like, you know, fair play, whatever. So I remember once asking if I could help one of my teammates with some ropes or something. And he just said, no, just sit there and look pretty. Like, just, fuck off. Basically, I know.

It was stuff like that. And he just, yeah, now I wouldn't, I would have completely torn into. that but at the time I was like 20 years old or whatever and just didn't think I couldn't think of what to say um the the climbing world was definitely yeah it's it's definitely full of misogyny but now when I look back and I think about these big macho guys that the climb like there were for instance when I went to the summit of Everest I was on my period I'm so pleased you were on your period because I wanted to ask us I was like what do you do I was on my fucking period so I was climbing with like these six foot four guys and they're all strong and they're all like

these Uber climbers and, uh-la. And I was like, on my period, at the time, it was something that I was mortified by. But now, I look back and I think, my God, you thought it was hard enough. I had to do it on my fucking period. Oh, my God. I would do anything on my period. I'm not doing anything. Alex, I'm not cooking dinner. I'm on my fucking period. You're like, I'm never I was going to climb Everest. Oh, my God. I didn't exactly expect it to come at that exact moment, but it was a full moon. And you just, it's really undignified. like, you're all in a tent together, and I just had to, like, pull my sleeping bag up around me and just, like, try and do my business and just hope that they weren't too interested.

And do you take, sorry, I literally said this to Alex this morning, I need to ask. If you, you use tampons, or do you take it, basically, you don't have to tell me that, but do you take it with you up the mountain? Because you can't litter, presumably. No, you wouldn't, I wouldn't, I would never leave anything like a tampon or a sanitary towel on the mountain. But, no, I didn't want to be messing around with tampons, so I was just using sanitary towels. and then, like, wrapping them in the little thing and just putting them in a special pocket in the backpack

and taking them back to base camp where, yeah, they would... So, you know, and it's just like that's a fact of it. But at the time, that was mortifying because you just want to be like the guys. And now I look back and I'm like, oh my God, I was so badass. Like, I was climbing on my period. And they were complaining about how hard it was. I was pretending like nothing was wrong, it's all fine.

But, you know, women privately, we go through so much and we get on with it and we do exactly what men do, but we can do it while bleeding. Yeah. And at 20, were you 20? I was 22. At 22 years old, like that's just wild. I just think we hold ourselves to the standards of men.

And we're not men. You know, we have like very different bodies, especially when you're in like a sporting thing, like cycling or climbing, and especially with expeditions, like you're living on a mountain with guys. Everything in the mountains is set up for men. Like the clothes, the weather, the zippers are. Everything is designed for men. And so as women, we just have to, I mean,

I hope it's different now, but especially when I was climbing like 10, 15 years ago, just starting out, it was, it was like, nothing could fit me, like, you know, nothing worked. It was all about guys. And you just had to get on with it and not make a fuss, because to make a fuss would be like, oh, typical woman kind of thing. Yeah, so emotional, yeah, nightmare. Jesus. This thought isn't fully formed and it might be totally tenuous, but let me try. obviously like when men go and climb Everest it's like yeah you go like you do whatever but was it more for women to do it

is it more of a like oh that's a bit you know selfish or to like leave people and is there more of an expectation around like oh you know that's that's a bit selfish of you whereas for a man it's like strong and you go and you conquer yeah I think I'm not I definitely did I didn't have kids when I was climbing Everest and stuff

but I was climbing with men who did have children. And I know that it like tore them apart that they were leaving their children. They worried about them all the time. They desperately missed them and missed their wives. You know, they're human beings too. But for sure, I think it's not so much in the climbing world because I think men understand that they're taking the same risks as women. But the media, that's where like, so when I was in 1995, so I think I was eight, a mountaineer called Alison Hargreaves with she had two children and she died on K2

trying to become the first British woman to climb K2 which is the second highest mountain, way more dangerous than Everest. It's known as like the deadly peak and all of that stuff and she died and her children are grown up now and there's a great documentary on BBC. Have you seen it with his

with her son? The last mountain and it's really it's like obviously heartbreaking that they lost their mum but at the same time the media kind of vilified her and like how could you have How could a mother leave her kids? Whereas when men do it, the media don't go after it in the same way. Yeah. So it's, I don't think it's so much in the world.

But yeah, we still deal with it now. Like I think I have so much of that internalised because now I have a daughter and she's three. I'm terrified of leaving her as a mother. I need to hear about K2 because you, because like this is now bloke. I've literally only learned about it this week and I'm like, what? It's deadlier than Everest. and I really want to hear about your experience doing that but before I ask that

you have your daughter now do you still climb well she was one when the pandemic hits so you haven't so yeah so I mean like you know she was one and then I was nine months pregnant like pregnant for nine months whatever so there's been a really long time so my last trip was K2 and I would love to do more expeditions in the future I don't know how it's going to work though because I can't imagine leaving her for six weeks but then I know that people do it all the time

for different, you know, not even for climbing, but just because of work and stuff. So it's, but I think because of being in lockdown for nearly two years, I'm so used to being with her every day and stuff. So it's just, yeah, that'll be a bit bridged across soon. And she came home when she was like 16

and said, I'm going to climb Everest, you wouldn't say, don't be silly, that's the superhumans. I mean, obviously I'm a superhuman because I'm your mom. But if she wanted to climb Everest or K2 or whatever, do what you've done, what would you say? I think she probably will. hopefully climb because me and my husband climb and love it and I want my worst thing would be that if she just didn't want to be involved because that's all our holidays like that's

what we do so but if she wanted to climb Everest I would say to her that you think really about the reasons why you want to climb it because if you do just want to get that tick you know that photo on the top don't don't do it but if you for me it was like this it was just this deep seated thing from ever since I was a kid that I didn't understand that I had to go and be in the mountains. And Everest was an outlet to get to go and do that. It was a goal. It was a challenge that would take me there.

And yeah, and I'll also know that like from being that 20 year old whose parents told her you can't do it, you're not going to do it, that if you want to do something as a kid, literally there's nothing that will stop you and especially your parents, if anything, I wanted to do it more when they told me not to do it. So, yeah, yeah, I know that I'm never going to be able to persuade her. No, but you would let her. Yeah, we don't have a choice. I want her to do things for the,

I say the right reasons, like what are the right reasons, but I just want her to do things that like fulfill her and enrich her life and I don't care what they are. And if it's Everest, then fine. Okay, love that. That's very nice. I need to know about Katie. We need to, yeah.

Sorry. I think Katie fascinates me more than Everest. It's now fascinating me now more, which is annoying. Because I'm just going like two weeks behind, you're 20 years behind you with the obsession. But, okay, so K2 is like, why am I saying what it is because I know the least. But it's the second highest

mountain, right? And it's not as high as Everest, but it's more dangerous. I think it's 8.5,000 metres high and Everest is 8,850. So it's not, you know, only a few hundred metres difference. But it's a way more difficult climb. And even to get to base camp

is a massive undertaking. I thought I was going to die many times just on the walk to base camp, one slip. That was the walk in, you know, you could have died on the walk in. So you get to base camp and feel really trapped. You're in the heart of the Karakora mountain range in Pakistan and there's the only way out is to retrace your footsteps over this really treacherous

glacier. And so there's this real sense of just disappearing into like the belly of the beast really and like you're stuck there and you've just got to kind of stay calm. There's nothing I can do about it. And yeah, it's a beautiful mountain but it is really steep and there's a lot of avalanches. and our first camp we got to on the mountain, we were on this tiny little promontory, this rocky outcrop, and either side of this, where our tent was, the avalanches would come down.

But just where we were, they would kind of scoot off to either side. And so all night I was awake hearing the roar of these avalanches, and they're sometimes so loud that you think, this is it, I'm going to be dead in about three seconds, and then the sounds subsides and you're still alive. and you lie there thinking this is not worth it

just from like my nerves I would pass away from fright I think Susan yeah I'm actually pleased my heart yeah that was me as well I promise you

and then yeah but then the next day you get out of the tent and you start climbing and it's like I am on K2 this is the mountain that I've read all the books of and it's you know it's got this deadly reputation it killed all these women in particular

it seems to be like there's this thing around it being cursed for women, which is obviously a load of rubbish, but quite a lot of people have died on it and quite a lot of women. But then when you're actually on the mountain, you're like, what was I so afraid of? It's all been built up to be this terrifying thing, but actually it's beautiful, and the views are amazing, and the climbing is incredible as well. There's some really steep chimneys that you have to climb up, and really great. But I got altitude sickness, actually, from, I think, having a big ego and getting really

overexcited and, like, trying to keep, not keep up, but be in front of all the men on the which is so stupid. But there's this feeling of, like, having to prove yourself because you're a woman. And so if I can get to camp for all of you guys, then I deserve my place on this expedition. And that's stupid. And I know that, and I've had to, like, talk to myself about it so many times, but it still sometimes gets the better of me. And it did on this day, I, like, properly.

rushed, went too fast. Your body doesn't have time to deal with the lack of oxygen that you're pushing it to. And it just doesn't have time to adapt. And so then you hit this wall and you start to get sick. And I had a swelling on my brain and had to pretty much quite come down the few hours later. And that was really tough because you're really sick. And no one can help you down. Like there's no help. You just have to get your backpack on and go with your teammates. And And obviously they're really there and caring for you, but you've got to be the one taking those steps. And it was tough, but, yeah, we got up and down alive.

And then just after I'd sort of called quits on my trip, my expedition there, an avalanche just came down, K2, and buried all of our tents and all of our equipment. So it was really lucky that we weren't there at the time. So all your teammates came back down with you? Yeah, so we were all off the mountain. It was about a week, maybe more than a week later, actually. And they'd been bad weather,

snow had fallen up there, so we knew that the avalanche was going to, there was going to be something coming, but I think this was also part of the mountain, like there's Syrax, these big hanging blocks of glacial ice that have been there for thousands of years stuck on the mountains. So you have the snow avalanches, but the worst ones are these big chunks of thousands of year old ice just falling off, and they are just like concrete flying down the mountain, really, so they just obliterate everything in the path, and we lost everything. All the teams at K2, there was an American team and there was, you know, teams from all over the world, I think we lost like 200,000 pounds or dollars worth of equipment in that avalanche between all of us. Everyone was

okay. Everyone was okay because we'd all been off. Yeah. Thank God. So it was lucky. It was really lucky. It was really looking, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. But no people really have managed to climb K2 even sort of since then. I think there's only been one or two years where people have actually reached the top because it is that difficult with the weather conditions and stuff. And in 14 peaks man he got to K2 Base Camp in the documentary and he's like

yeah they're all like knackered and they just want to go home and he goes into this tent and it's all my teammates that I was there with in 2016 and I was like oh my god they're still there still trying to do it and they're all like head and hands

like you're crazy you can't do this and NIMS comes along and he's like yeah we can and they all did it and I didn't realize at the time that they'd actually I knew they got to the top but I didn't realize it was because of him So, yeah, thank God for people like that sometimes. Are you going to try it again?

I don't know. I think the more people that climb it, the more knowledge we have, the safer it gets and stuff. But just like the basics of those avalanches, we can't change anything about that. And I'm a mother now, and I just don't know. I don't know. I don't know how to deal with it.

Like there's not many of us women who are mothers who also want to climb, these big, big peaks. and so it's really hard to actually know what the right thing to do is. Yeah. I guess it's just working out. I'd love to say yes and I'd love to go and do it and I'd love to get to the stop and get by done safely

but there's no guarantee of that. And if you do die it'd be really, really annoying and heartbreaking. You're like, my daughter, it's not just about me anymore. That's like the thing. And as women, we live with guilt constantly. So like the idea, like that's the ultimate guilt, isn't it? Being selfish, going climb mounting and dying.

Yeah, does you think your husband feels the same guilt or would feel the same? I think he would actually, yeah, he's really, I think sometimes he's a much better parent than I am. Like he's so loving and patient with our daughter and I think he would be, he would, I don't think he would even think, this is how good of a parent he is, he wouldn't even consider doing anything that dangerous that might risk his chance to, like, grow up with her. Whereas for me, there's always this lingering desire to go and do these crazy, dangerous things. And I can't quite, I think you're, yeah, you said, in your book,

you said, your stepdad said that I'm superhuman, so climeveris, and you, and you say, you know, said so many times today, like, or someone like me, if someone like me could, anyone can do it. I don't think that's true. Like, I think you are a superhuman. I think it's such a unique breed of person that does what you've done. And if you knew me, you know, that you're clumsy and, you know, you say in your book that you're clumsy and, and all these things. And obviously, I can see that you're like a real human person because you're in front of me, but like, listening to what you've done. I'm just like, that. is extraordinary and you still have this feeling inside you that you know you still want to do

more and it's like that's a it's the most amazing super like I just I cannot relate and I just think it's amazing well I did see that you'd run an ultramarathon last year and I was like oh my god I'm so jealous I would love to do something like that and I could you could do an option you could do you could you could just run that home I think so we so quickly forget what we've done and look to what we want to do next and I'd love to do ultramarathes so I was like oh you'll be fine trust And you say that, and I just think we are so quick to forget our own things that we've done and then think other people are doing, like, cool stuff, but actually... I mean, we've all got us...

I'm sitting here thinking, well, what have I fucking done? You've been 260 pages of your book, but actually... Oh, my God, yes, I heard about... When's it out? Oh, you've written the book? Yes, yes, I did. Okay, fine, not being right now. Is it...

Is it out? No, not until June. 9th of June, it comes out. Yeah. That was the hardest thing I've ever done, actually. For me as well. not physically but mentally. And I'm writing a second book

and it's even more the hardest thing I've ever done. Like it's so hard. I feel for you. It's so hard. So hard. Like I never knew. Earlier in this episode that you'd never read a book. And then when I said that Benito was coming in the episode,

you said that your Everest obsession started with a book that you read when you're younger. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, I have. I have. It's just like in recent years. My concentration, my attention span.

I am going to read this. Yeah. If I'm like super interested to something, I can read it. But yeah. Yeah. I honestly, I'm so excited. Thank you, just that you've been here. Like, I think this whole conversation was, I suppose my mind.

So good. Probably I'm so interested in, like, I feel like, I've just kind of looked off and, like, realized that we've, just been, like, staring at you this whole time, like, transfixed, because it's just so, yeah, so interesting. Thanks for coming in. Oh, thanks for having me. Like, I've loved listening to your podcast.

It's literally blown my mind open to so many new ways of thinking. Like, that's what I, I mean, I don't really, I'm not a huge fan of, like, Instagram, but I think the best thing about it is just, like, discovering, like, conversations like you're having around feminism and everything like that it's just been so great and I can't wait until my daughter is older and I can get her to listen to it all

because I want her to definitely like, you know, look up to people like you and not all the other rubbish on there and there's... She's got you to look up to you, literally to be up some mountain to be like, yeah.

Oh my God. Thank you so much having me. Thank you. Thank you. God, thank you thank you so much. I'm concerned that I just sound like

an absolute weirder I swear like she was looking at me like you're all so weird Do you see what I mean now when I said to you so many times you don't need to do all the research

you've already done the research Yeah I was trying to say it in as many ways without you realizing that when I said you'd done the research I meant you'd done like a good 15 years like I knew

research about her chosen profession I knew what to ask I've always wanted to speak to someone and ask them questions about, about, like, climbing like that. So it was just fascinating. And also, she was so nice. Wasn't she? Really, really, really liked her.

And we're going to go climbing with her, aren't we? I mean, albeit to the rock wall. I did suggest Kilimanjaro, and Alex was like, suck a dick. Although, yeah, I'm not ruling that out for us. Although, base camp's lower. I genuinely, I think we could go to base camp. I really think we could. And I know it's like a silly thing to say, but also, why not?

My mom went. Oh, let's go. I don't know. Fuck it. I've never been to the ball. I'm precious. and fucking high maintenance. I can't even...

I hate festivals. Can't even do a festival. It's not a festival though. No, I know, but like... It's the adventure of a lifetime. Camping overnight. Let's go and see your obsession. Yeah.

They do say never meet your heroes. But I don't know if that applies to mountains. Okay, we need to stop giving so much airtime to Everest. We really do. Let's move on. To is it just me. Because it's making me sound like a fucking weirdo. I sound so odd.

I know I am, but I just sounds so odd. Anyway. Okay, so I'm going to make you feel better because I have my own. I have my own is it just me Oh my God, okay Let me have a take a drink I'm thinking in the bath

I was sitting in the bath I was sitting in the bath Did a night And I was thinking to myself I am quite a heavy person Not massively But you know just You know

I have bones and organs and stuff You know like my weight on the world Is you know Substantial Okay So too is the body of water That I pour into the bar You know what I mean

Like combine me and all that water Yeah We're pretty heavy Yeah Can you imagine please I'm just sitting in the bath I'm in my own business and then the combined weight of my body and all that water just goes,

too much for the floor. And then bam, I fall in the bath. The bath and I fall together as one onto the kitchen floor. But does water weigh anything? Wait, what? Wait, hang on, it does, doesn't it? Because like a water bottle, yeah, okay. I was just like imagining.

Water, weigh anything. Okay. Water. away anything. I'm sorry, but... Have you ever had a raindrop down in your head, stood underneath a waterfall? Yeah, that in the bath.

Yeah, forget it. Forget I said that. Yeah, I can't. I'll never forget you said, but that was a special moment. I feel better about my stupid question, my stupid, my stupid thought now. That does happen, though. People go through the floor. Well, yes, but I kept thinking about it, like, on a practical level, okay, because, right, in the film, it's like, oh, like, the baths come through, like, oh, what we like, but I'm, like, on a practical level, right?

Alex gets home from work. The confusion, he walks in. And it's just, like, hole in the ceiling, he's like, what the fuck? And then he looks, and there's water everywhere. And then he looks again. And there's just shards of porcelain everywhere. Oh, wow. And then it's just my naked, presumably dead body in the kitchen.

And he'll be like, how, I think he would, but I think it would be the most confusing situation. And I just, every time I'm in the bath now, and Alex is out, I'm like, this will be hard to comprehend for him. When he comes home and finds me dead on the bathroom floor. all wet. Wow.

Yeah. So my bath times have got like mildly less relaxing. So yes, it is just you. Can confirm. Yeah, it's really annoying because I was really enjoying my baths. I said last week that the good thing about

my week last week was that I need to do more. But I said last week that the good thing in my life was I was bathing every day. And it was only after, literally after we did that recording I got in the bath and I thought, what if I just go through the floor? That wouldn't be so good. And now my baths have got less good.

Oh, I don't. I don't know. Who's to say the floor strong? Like, who knows? You know what I mean? I don't know. I don't test it. I don't have to test it. Well, yeah, why would you? Dangerous. Okay. So that's my own. Is it just me? I actually would like to hear from somebody else. If anyone else has those like just catastrophic thoughts in the bar. Let me know. So embarrassing stories. So is it just me? But I feel like it kind of crosses over into embarrassing story. And I had to read it like five times because I didn't quite understand. But I'm just going to, I'm just going to, I'm just going to hit you with it.

Is it just me that sold a pair of leggings on Deepop that I had shit myself in? And has anyone else ever sold anything that they've shit themselves in? Okay, I have a confession to make. Oh my God. I know the person that sent this in. Do you? And you do too. No way.

Yes, way. Alex, have you ever shite yourself in a piece of clothing that you've later sold? Or do you ever done any... I think what she's saying is, have you ever done anything in an item of clothing and then sold it? Anything like what? Like pissed myself. Yeah, like to do anything inappropriate? Like shagged in it or like giving it away afterwards, like lent him to your sisters. I'm too lazy to sell my clothes, but I don't think so.

I don't think I've ever done that... No, have you? Well, no, because as we've never sat myself, I've never shat myself. I think... No, I've never shat myself. Oh, there are some items of clothing that just go missing. I've pissed myself a lot, though. Have you? And what do you do you do with the clothes? Do you keep them? yeah god yeah just wash them

yeah I need to I need to defend her on her and say she did clean those before she saw them obviously well obviously she fucking did I love that I love you to clarify that because I was

she's so like soiled speaking of unnecessary things that don't need clarifying it really made me laugh and I did reply to her so it's fine but when I put up a poll after our last episode saying like do you pee in the shower

and someone replied in all seriousness saying, yes, but not exclusively. I was like, well, of course you don't do it exclusively. Like, whatever you are, like, I need to go for a shower. Oh my God, that's like a sim. It's like, I need a shower. It's like, no, you're fine, you're out for dinner. No, I need a shower right now.

You're at school. Made me laugh. How funny. How funny. Not exclusively. So, yes, a mystery person, I think it is just you. so an embarrassing story we got loads of tampon ones which I enjoy

very much so yeah so Amy who we mentioned earlier who handles our social media so she filters through all of the Is It Just Me's and embarrassing stories and basically like dulls them out to us so that the other person hasn't heard it before so your Is It Just Me section on tampons last week

brought up a suppressed memory that I have which I will be glad to forget once again many years ago I was dating a guy and we were in the early days and I was young and clearly very stupid. I went over to his for a weekend and was too embarrassed to say I was on my period, which I assumed would be fine. Do-da-da-dot, it was not. He lived with a few other guys, and unsurprisingly, they didn't have a bin. I needed to change my tampon, and I was so scared of clogging their toilets. I had the bright idea, wrapping it in tissue and throwing it out

the window. It was pitch black, and I guess I assumed it was like an alley or some disused area. Anyway, all is well, and the weekend is fab, and I think no more of it until I get a call on Monday for him. He said, from him, he said his downstairs neighbor, owned the garden, their flat was above and their dog had found a used tampon in their garden. The neighbour was rightly furious and made him come down and sort it out. I was mortified. I denied

all knowledge and never saw him again. I really, truly wish this was exaggerated or an outright lie, but unfortunately it couldn't be more true. Oh my God, you know, oh God, you know that's just the dog. The dog. It's a dog for me. You know what's frustrating?

Is it not frustrating? The thing that's... I tell you what it is. It's the bath story again, right? There's just a process that happens here. You come home from work and you see, you know, dead meat on the kitchen floor. And it's a whole, it's a series of stages. This nice downstairs neighbor, it's like, oh, the dog in the garden. And he does that thing that dog owners do where you look and you're like, oh, there's a little dog in the guise.

Oh, you found, what have you found? What's it going to be? It's a one of your toys. It's a used tampon. And then you look around and it's like, well, it's not yours, but it's not your voice. It's definitely not mine. And then it's like, well, who's could it be? And then you have to work it backwards.

And that's why he called her. That's why he called her. But also, why would he call her? I feel like if it was me, I'd just be like, well, okay, this happened. Like, there's obviously an issue. So let me just, let me just like pretend this never happened. And why would he ring her and say, like, was this you? But I like the idea that she's denied it so vehemently

that, like, what's his speculation group? Who else could it have been? They're looking at other upstairs neighbours. He definitely knows. He's thrown it from like 2.100%. He knows it. I think the most suspicious part of this was that she never then spoke to him again. Nothing said killed quite like the complete.

pleat disappearing. It's nothing to do with me, honestly, but also just delete my fucking number. I've evaporated. Because I do not exist. I have perished. Okay, so we've had an email. Hi, Em and Alex.

Can't believe I'm starting my email in this way, but it's a great podcast, please keep it up. I was about to say, wait, you're not going straight in, are you? Where's our praise? Love your plans for all the things you want to talk about. So thank you very much for the praise. You know we fucking love it.

I've just finished the podcast episode with Jamila, who is always great to hear from for a dose of, for straight up realism, but it's the is it just me discussion on being single that I want to respond to. Full disclaimer, I'm 32 and in a relationship. I've been with my boyfriend for nearly three years now, but before that, I was absolutely living and loving my best single life. And if things don't work out, I'm sure I'd miss him, but I actually think I'd be okay in the long run. I'd get to rediscover myself all over again, make all my decisions just for me. Society thinks that's strange, but it's just conditioning we have that if you don't settle down, there's

something wrong with you. And on that, I'd just like to enter my own, is it just me? Is it just me? Or should we talk more about not wanting kids because I am 99% sure leaving 1% there because can you ever be 100% sure on anything like that that I don't for many reasons but it's never talked about it's just assumed that as women we will all the best never sure how to end casual emails oh I have a lot to say about this actually I do too I just want to say the first half of that email you are going to love next week's episode because we have the fantastic la la la let me explain coming on to talk on Valentine's Day about exactly this sort of thing. The kid thing, we've definitely answered that bit now,

but just for the rest of the relationship stuff, you're going to love next week. But for now, what are you thinking? What are your thoughts? 100%. I find it baffling how little people talk about it. And it is kind of like gaining momentum a little bit and you can find some stuff on social media now

about people being child free and like choosing to be child free. But, I mean, historically. like it's been such a taboo like you know you're a woman you're supposed to want kids like that's what you're supposed to do and I actually think because of that a lot of people go

a lot of people just have kids because they think they should and I think if there was a wider conversation around it and people felt more because often if people say they don't want kids they are met with this oh you're selfish you're so selfish you only just care about yourself there's no phone I don't think it's supposed to say the fucking Pope

but I'm just like they're going to get in trouble No, I'm going to stand by it because he said a couple of weeks ago that it was selfish of women not to have children said they're like, so he doesn't have any children. I just need to make my peace with that. He said it's not, he said it's selfish for women not to have children,

but the man himself and all of his men have no children. This is something that always niggles at me, but I'm scared to say it out loud because I'm worried that it like shames people who do choose to have children. But in my head, my logic, and like I want kids. like I do. I want to have children. But like the logic in my head is that it's actually selfish, more selfish to have children. Because why are you bringing children to the world? It's purely for your own. And I say this is someone who wants to have children. It's purely for your own reasons.

I don't think you can give me another reason that's not to do with you. Daisy is not going to benefit from our children. If anything, they're going to be a hindrance. Other people's children are no good to anybody. Children are only good to the people that Right. And there are enough people on the planet. We don't need any more people. Obviously, we need less. I genuinely think all of this, no offence to the Pope, because I don't know his agenda, but I'm just saying from what it looks like from here,

it keeps women busy, keeps women distracted. Just get them focused on a relationship, get them focused on babies. Then they won't come for our jobs. Then they won't make a fuss about this. Because they'll be busy. They'll be busy having their babies and talking about milk and nappies, and that's what women are going to do. And that's fine.

Within that, we don't talk about the fact that one in four, pregnant, this is really fucking heavy, sorry, but one in four pregnancies, end in miscarriage. Like, the way that we talk about pregnancy is obscene. Like, it's like, oh, don't have sex because, oh, you could get pregnant and have a baby. And we talk about sex in the context of only ever making a baby. And that's the only point, as if it's, as if it's the most standard, easy and expected thing in the world, when the reality is for so many women, having babies is really hard thing to do. And a really good friend of mine lost her baby last week. And it was like, what the fuck we have no

a miscarriage but we have no tools to deal with that as women it's just like what the what the fuck because the way that we speak about it is so one dimensional and we have to make room for the fact that babies aren't easy to have yeah and babies aren't

what everybody wants and that's great why why do we need other women because there are so many amazing people do you follow move with Tara on Instagram yeah I love her yeah because she put up like and Sophie Milna does the same and they say we don't want kids And all the women die, and then they go, well, you might change your mind.

It's like, all right, but it might not, why does it matter? Or you'll regret that when you're older. And Tara did a posto the day of all the things that women say to her all the time. Because men don't say it, men don't give a fuck. But other women say it to her and they're like, you'll regret it, you'll regret. And it's like, so what if I do? That's my regret. That's not yours.

Exactly, yeah. I know, but people just can't help it. But also, like, I don't know, I feel kind of bad that I actually sort of compared the two and said, well, it's actually like selfish. have children because I shouldn't need to say that in order to defend the fact that it's not selfish to not have children. But it's fine. It's fine to be selfish sometimes as well. And if you want to have babies, we want kids, we can say, we can say that we're selfish for that one if we want. Yeah, it always just bothers me that people say that people that don't want kids like that's selfish

because I just don't think it's selfish. I think it's responsible. I think it's like, because I mean, again, like we talked about with Lala next week, just earlier this day next week. you're bringing someone into the world. They've got a no, like they can't say yes or no to that. You're bringing someone to the world and you have to be super sure that you're going to be able to provide them and, you know, fulfill or meet their needs. So, yeah, I think it's a really, I think it's a cool thing

when someone realizes that they don't want children. I think it's brilliant. I do. And the societal expectation that all women want babies, removes a woman's right to her body because it's saying that that's what you're going to do whether or not you really want it this is what you were made for

and this is what you're going to do and this is what we need you to do in order to succeed as a woman and that in the same I mean this is a massive part of the debate around like reproductive rights but this gives no autonomy to you as a woman to fight on any of this conversation

to have any space in this conversation not only should you be able to have the right to terminate a pregnancy if you want the right to get pregnant if you want you have the right to not get pregnant And we don't give any space to that. Like, it's the most ridiculous thing. Like, the way that women speak, even speak to women, like, I'm sure you, you know, you're

married now and you must have it, of people saying, well, when are you, when are you? When are you? Yes. It's like, fuck off. Fuck off. You've got no idea. You've got no idea. Even, you know, when I was like talking about the book and I had this big announcement

and I specifically said, like, it's something that I, you know, took me almost a year to like work on and it was so hard and da-da-da. and then like I did like any guesses and then like one in four was like you're pregnant you're pregnant you're pregnant to be a year to work but it was very hard it was so hard oh no no

did not mean that that's exactly what I thought you meant that's not what I meant though I know it's where you men I just thought it'd be fun to take you down that half um so but it's like definitely there needs to be a wider conversation around it and people should feel free at like you know free to speak about it because then if we can all speak about it

like people can explore it and like come to their own conclusions and not just be forced down this one path that we're all told we have to do yeah and I don't know I just think more we need simultaneously more and less conversation around this because we need less of that

and you're pregnant yet you're trying and no one even asks if you're trying it's like are you having babies are you having babies as if like oh you're having a baby you know I can't I mean like I'm just like obsessively terrified of infertility and

that's my personal fear and stress around this but then you know when like what happens to my friend and what happens to so many women and there's just no space to speak about that and it's like it's the weirdest thing because there is a conversation and there is a rhetoric surrounding

pregnancy and babies and it's like yeah you're going to do it and it's going to be fucking easy and you're going to be great and then all other conversation is just silent that's why I honestly think and I might change my mind on this and like you know everyone does it differently I totally understand that but I hate the whole there is so much like secrecy around it and it can leave i think like people feeling

like isolated with it and i think when we do start trying i think i'm going to be open about it and say that we are because i just don't under i don't see why not and i just think like it should be i don't know what do you think because to me it should be more of an open conversation but i also understand why people want to keep it quiet because everyone's then thinking all the time are you pregnant are you pregnant but everyone's going to be thinking that all the time anyway because i honestly I noticed it. I noticed it literally last night because I wasn't drinking at dinner

and Alex's friends were like oh I'm like stop doing that it happens every time I don't drink or whatever I'm like stop doing that because it puts so much pressure on me and there's a bit of me that would love I mean because obviously we're not we're not trying and we're like you know we've got shit to do

I got a wedding I can't stress this enough I haven't got space in the dress so yeah so no that that's not our situation now but it does annoy me because it makes me realize with the conversation going forward so I'm just like I don't want the eyes on me so there's a bit of me that would love to do what you say and just be like yeah like we're trying so fuck it back off with your questions we're just doing what we're doing and we're just hope for the best and I'd love that but then I don't

know if there's like a bit of my own I want to use a word pride but that feels so problematic because it shouldn't be anything to do with my worth or my achievements or that's the wrong word but there's just a bit of me that would just be like, I just want to like, work, just be quiet and hope for the best. Yeah, for sure. You know what I mean? I have no, I think I probably wouldn't say anything. Yeah.

But already, and it's bothered me, because me and Alex spent together in any 10 years, it's bothered me the whole way through my 20s, that people, the second I have a Diet Coke or a water or whatever that you get the eyebrow. And it just bothers me to so much because it's like my, because I would love to have kids one day. so it's like other people put this pressure on me

I'm like fuck off and I can't imagine that in the context of this woman who's sending it in and saying she doesn't want kids because it must be ten times worse horrendous because at least I want them so like I'm like I'll be like oh fuck it like fuck off yeah I know it's interesting

and I think it's like a very a grey area I'd actually like to hear from listeners about this like would you tell people that you're trying like would you have you It feels like you're reclaiming that power that, I hate, I feel like I say society all the time, but like the societal expectation has over you

and you're reclaiming that by being like, like, I'm trying, I'll tell you if there's any news. And this whole like three-month thing as well, like I don't... Well, that was it with, yeah, my friend, it's like we knew early. Yeah, and it means that people... And it means that people go through miscarriages alone. And they're isolated.

Thinking of her doing that on her own, it's just like, if... I mean, sorry, if God exists, that's how I knew he was a man. I was like, this process is fucking barbaric. Like, no woman would design this system. Horrendous. I simply don't believe it. But we have this kind of shame around it.

Like, there's the stigma around it, like, shouldn't really, you know, it's almost like shameful to have a miscarriage, which is crazy considering, like, is it one in four, did you say? Yeah, one in four pregnancies. Because I keep thinking as well, like, when I talk about the patriarchy, I'm like, oh, maybe I'm just being dramatic. You know what I mean? What is the patriarchal? Maybe it doesn't exist. And then I look at the way that we take.

talk about children and we expect women to have children and even the shame all of this and I'm like no there it is it's alive and well and it's fucking huge like all of this is a man-made system and it sucks so

the person who said Madame own it in a nutshell own it yes we should talk about it more yeah and do what you fucking want and you want and you are not on your own follow me with Tara and follow Sophie Milner they both talk about not wanting children and I think it's empowering as shit And if I didn't want children, I'd be like, well, I don't know.

I mean, it makes me empowered to not have children even though I want children. So that's confusing. There's something within that as well. I'm like, oh, God. Who am I? But yeah, stay strong. It's really cool that you've decided, like, what you want, what you want for your life. And I think that's the most responsible thing to do.

Yeah, and have a hoot. You can have a great life. Live a great child-free life. It's like, God, I wish I didn't want kids because I could just go, like, see the world. Just, what, Everest, when are we going? Anytime. I love it. I'm blaming it. I'm blaming my reason. I'll never climb it because I have to have children. Sure. Well, that was a lot longer than we anticipated. This was really long. We're really sorry, but we missed Alex and she's back. Yay. I'm so happy

to be back. Are you really? I'm happy to be back on the podcast. Yeah, yeah. This is like, I've been looking forward to it. So, yeah. Okay, well, thank you much for listening. Thank you. If you're here, because this, we know this is an extra long episode. If you're here, so niche, because it's about it. So fucking niche. I'm so sorry. But if you have made it to the end, like, we love you so much. Thank you so much. And if you don't mind doing an extra thing for us, if you could follow us on Apple Podcasts

or subscribe, like whatever, like, whatever you, whatever you kids. If whatever works for you, we didn't work for you. We would be very grateful. That would be really cool and we would be very appreciative. So thank you so much. We will see you next Monday for our Valentine's Day episode. Yeah. La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la me's made

Ooh I felt like I had to do a love noise