Should I Delete That? - The Infertile Midwife

Episode Date: August 13, 2023

This week on the podcast, the girls are joined by Sophie Martin, AKA The Infertile Midwife. After getting married and settling down, Sophie and her husband decided they wanted to have a baby. After years of trying, and spending all their savings on IVF, Sophie’s hope was waning, and all the while she was surrounded with new mothers and babies every single day at work. Sophie shares all the trials and tribulations in her pursuit of motherhood, the indescribable highs and heartbreaking lows. This episode contains discussions of baby loss, so please listen with caution.You can pre-order Sophie’s memoir here: https://geni.us/theinfertilemidwifeAnd follow Sophie on Instagram @the.infertile.midwifeSands Support: https://www.sands.org.uk/Dad Still Standing: https://www.dadstillstanding.com/The Miscarriage Association: https://www.miscarriageassociation.org.uk/Get A Life: His & Hers Survival Guide to IVF: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Get-Life-Hers-Survival-Guide/dp/1409155013The Fertility Network: https://fertilitynetworkuk.org/Email us at [e-mail] & Edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

People really don't understand that because they're like, you should be happy now. It's not a binary of like, oh, you're happy or sad. I hurt no one else by doing IBF. Percy's so amazing that I want another one of him because he is so cool. Hello and welcome back Should I Delete That. I'm Alex Light. And I'm in Clarkson. How are you?

Good. How are you? I'm good. I need to talk about my awkward. Oh God. Yeah, go. Because it happened last night. I actually don't know if I should tell it because it's disgusting. I'm actually like ashamed of myself. It's really disgusting, right? What did you do? What did I do? What did I do? I went. So I, I sleep in a really long t-shirt, big long t-shirt. That's why I sleep in. No pants, just, well, knickers, but like a really long t-shirt. No, you sleep in knickers? Yeah, sleep in knickers, yeah. Oh. No bra, obviously, but feel funny without the knickers. See, at the moment, I'm having to sleep with a bra and no knickers because of breastfeeding. Anyway, which it's really the wrong way around. Does, isn't it? That is the, that feels like the wrong way around. Yeah, it's like work on top, party on the bottom. Yeah. I, so I went for my last week of the night. Okay.

And I weed. And then I was like, something doesn't feel right. And I had pissed all over my t-shirt. my t-shirt is so long that it's i hadn't realized i was tired i think i had gone to sleep a little bit and my t-shirt had been dangling and i pissed off my t-shirt how disgusting is that oh my god i thought you couldn't say you'd forgotten to take your knickers off but that's arguably worse your little piss trail behind you that's saggy flat on my t-shirt pissed on my t-shirt i was like what have i just done that is so disgusting oh no did you have to how did you get it off your as well did we go out of you back I've got to pull it up

I know I just slept in it no just kidding that's what's in the washing machine now yeah exactly my shame no I had to like manoeuvre like manoeuvre myself out of it very ashamed

very very ashamed that was my awkward 34 years old I know how embarrassing I'm embarrassing you got awkward for me um for you

mine by comparison it's not that bad mine is arguably a bad but I seem to have been quite a good citizen this week um so like teeny awkward not really awkward mostly just bad I went to my goddaughter's second birthday

in Reading this weekend got back to London like literally was pulling onto my street and my friend rang and she went hi yeah it's like hi yeah she's like have you forgotten anything I was like have I yes yeah yeah I left my bag there oh my god your entire handbag keys

wallet shit for all everything headphone well I took Alex's headphones as well Alex's headphones were in the bag oh no yeah just everyone well that'll teach him

that's serving right for not using his did you not feel a bit naked I was carrying the baby so no I never no because I always leave the house just with AirPods and my phone like literally I'm and my keys that's it I never take anything

like I never take a bag I never feel the need to right I see okay do you know what my sister's like this she doesn't carry a bag at all she just puts her keys her like a card and her phone in her pockets like she just puts them in her pockets and they just like swim swim unattended and it's like one of the biggest bones of contention because inevitably at some point in the day she's like oh I need to

charge my phone so I give her my phone charger but she's in my bag because I carry a bag and then she's like oh I need some paracetamol here's some paracetamol from my bag. Oh, I need a blister plaster. Here's a blister plaster from my bag. And I'm like, Jen, just carry a bag, a little bag. It's no harm. Anyway, I bought Alex a bag for his birthday for this exact reason. He's a man bag now. Yeah, I just, I just, I couldn't be without a bag. He's like, oh, can you put this in your bag? And he gives me this huge stack of stuff, like phone, wallet, glasses, keys, AirPods. Can you put this in your bag? It's like, this implies that you're giving me a postcard, but no. Anyway, anything good or awkward, anything good or bad, good or bad. Yes,

bad. Yesterday, I went into the bathroom, turned on the shower, turned away to get my towel, turned back, and realized that there was a huge spider in the bath and the water that I'd put on had trapped it, right? Yeah. Not trapped, yeah, trapped it and like got it and got it wear. And I was like, I had this just moment of looking at it and being like, oh my God, I'm watching this thing die. I don't want to watch it die, but I'm also too scared to touch it and like take it out of the water. Anyway, I turned the water off, but the thing was clearly dead, right? Clearly dead. I know, I know. And honestly, it haunted me all day. The sight of this spider struggling and dying. Like, it was really horrible. I felt, I felt horrendous all day.

I felt like, I felt like a killer. I felt like a murderer. And I had to, I had to shower at the sink because I didn't want to put the water back on. Just anyway, awful. Anyway, it haunted me all day. Like, I had to talk to my mom about it. And she was like, I think it would be fine. Anyway, I get home and I go in the bathroom. And this spider, in its full glory, is standing on the wall.

Standing, did they stand? Lying. Yeah. Standing on the wall. All eight legs, totally intact, full glory. I was like, I have mourned you all day. You know, you've got the Jesus spider. I know.

Yeah, but it was, I swear to you. And then it was like, I'm back. I know, I know. It was dead. I love this. I feel like. I think you were going to come back and say there was like a spider vicar at the end of the bar and then like a hooded of spiders wearing black all suing sad songs.

Stop the clock. Stop the dog from barking with a juicy bone. Bring up the coffin. Let the mourners come. That would have been a. equally as crazy to me. Honestly, I was stunned to see this back-to-life creature.

So, yeah. Fine. In that case, my bad. Al, not such a happy ending. I was at my mum's house. I stepped out the front door and I just heard like a... Like a... And I looked down and I trodden on a snail.

Oh, no. And it was very much dead. Oh, no. And then I had to Google and my search history for like... I don't know, about two days. afterwards, is like, can snails feel pain? What research is there to say that they can't?

Like, if you stand on a snail, does it die instantly? Can they feel pain? There is some research, which I am debunking. But unfortunately, I don't want to believe it. But there is some research to say that, yes, they do feel pain. But if you step on their shell, it does kill them instantly. So I'm really hoping that he just didn't know it was coming. But I've really made up for it out, because as you know, it's been a very rainy week.

You must have been delighted. And obviously that means snails come out everywhere. And I have, I've been really trying to placate my guilt. And every time I've seen a snail, I've, like, ushered them off the pavement and out of harm's way. Okay. I don't think it's helped. Yeah. I still feel rotten the guilt.

You probably should. But obviously, if I close my eyes, I can still feel the crunch, and I think I probably will until I die. Oh, my God. You know, I've never killed an animal on purpose. Well, good. It's not my, it's not my vibe. No, but I've never killed a fly or a spider. No.

Or a wasp. Good. You know, all God's creatures. But Katty's boyfriend is here. My sister's got a new boyfriend. If anyone was at the live show, you might remember. He came to that. The third time I met him was last night.

He's at my mum's house. We're all here. Out of fucking nowhere, he was just sitting there. And with his bare hands, between his forefinger and his thumb, he caught a fly. Okay, that's really weird. Just caught it. And then just took it outside and then it fly away.

That's really weird. You can't catch fly. He said he does it all the time That's really weird Cool cool cool Yeah I'm gonna sit next to him at dinner this more often Because I nothing gives me The egg more than a fly hovering around me

What's the superhero has the really long lizard tongue And like catches insects Yeah that's it's like him It's like his fingers Oh my god that's really creepy But I like it I like it Good, good

My good is that I've been feeling really stuck In a content rut like just stuck and really not knowing what to do and feeling like all the content I make I'm not proud of it like I'm not feeling like it's not helping anyone I'm not enjoying it and then yesterday I made one

it was a special K reel saw it loved it I it was I just it felt really good I felt like I got my journalist hat back on and I really got stuck into it and I was like really pleased with it so yeah I don't know

I don't know if I'm out of my rut but it felt good so that's my good for you proud of you I loved it thanks what's yours Two good. One, I ran five miles yesterday. Well done. Yup.

Because I'm running Royal Park South Marathons. I'm getting my training back in and I'm really proud of myself and that's going really well. So, woo, go me. Second one is I went for dinner and a woman walked in and was really friendly with Bua and she sat down next to us and she's having dinner on her own, which I always think is iconic. But it was her birthday and we found out from the waitresses because she told the waitresses that it was her birthday and then we got this like, oh, you know.

you can't be on your own for your birthday so then we ended up having dinner with her and she was really nice oh i love for her so yeah that was just really nice that's so nice yeah she was lush anyway um so can you do you friends did you get her number are you friends now no but i know she works with a council so i feel that's gonna be a useful friend to have okay i think it's a i know she was council so i'm gonna somehow hunt her down oh no um no i just no you know what it was actually it just felt like one of those things it was just like we just came into each other's lives tonight for this reason yeah i like that like you didn't want to be on your own birthday and we didn't want you to put your own for your birthday and she you know arlo was there and boo was there and she was just drinking boo and giving her some of her food and just chatting with us about her

life and i don't feel like it was meant to go anywhere else i just feel like it was just meant to be that you know what i mean it's a really nice yeah really nice okay excellent okay so our interview this week is with sophie martin who is known on instagram as the infertile midwife um she came on to tell her story which was a really moving story but we do have to give a trigger warning we talked a lot about fertility and IVF and also baby loss for anyone who might be feeling fragile right now. But we really hope you enjoy the interview. Here's Sophie. Sophie, hi. Thank you so much for coming in today and chatting to us. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super, super excited. Oh, thank you. Yeah, we are excited to interview you and delve into your story.

You are known as the infertile midwife on Instagram, and that's the title of your book that's going to be out in August, which is super exciting. Congratulations. Can you tell us how infertile midwife came to be if you don't mind taking us through your story? Sure. So I'm a midwife, as you mentioned, and I was just happily midwifing along, got married to my husband, and we thought, oh, let's try and have a baby. like most normal people do and quite quickly I realised that it was not happening for us and I kind of just knew that things were not going to happen for us and so I tried to be cool and that is not in my nature

I try to be very chilled about it and so kind of went my down like an internet rabbit hole of like things you can do to try and improve your fertility or what kind of tips or tricks could I do to try and improve conception I pretty much tried everything you could ever ever think of, still didn't get pregnant. And eventually it transpired that we were going to need IVF. And along the way, I just kind of realized, well, I felt like I was the only person that

was infertile. I didn't know anyone else that I'd been through infertility treatment. And none of my colleagues had been through infertility. No one, you know, confessed to having had IVF. And so I felt like the only person, especially because I was quite young at the time I was in my 20s. I was like, why am I not getting pregnant and I'm young? Why is this not happening for me? And so I felt like, yeah, the only and fertile person in the world at that time. And I was just scrolling through Instagram one day and I typed in the hashtag, I think it was infertility. And all of a sudden I realized that there was this huge community on Instagram of other people, mostly women, going through infertility and facility treatment. And I was like, oh my gosh, I need to be part of this.

And a lot of accounts at the time were anonymous. So people would have kind of like usernames, you know, it would be like TTC, which is like trying to conceive or like IVF, babe. you know, like loads of different handles. And I wanted my account to be anonymous to start with because I just was like, I just need to speak to other people. And I really felt that when you're going through infertility and your midwife, it is so hard because you're faced every day by the one thing that you can't get.

And so that was kind of what inspired the handle. I wonder with midwifery, were you a baby person? Was it like you're called to, or is it just that element of science that interested you? So as a teenager, I loved babies. I still love babies. But definitely being a midwife, you're a very small amount of the time you actually spend with babies. You spend most of your time with women. And that was the main draw for me is to be with women. And that said, I do love all of it. The science, the babies, the women, everything, it is a great job. How did, were there times where you just thought, I can't, when you're going through your own IV, do your job? Yeah, so I thought I kind of bargained with myself that if I was never going to be a mum, then I would have to give up being a midwife because I thought I can't keep putting myself through it. And at the time, obviously it's your job. So that's what pays my bills. That was what was paying for my IVF. I couldn't just throw in the towel. What else was I going to do? And I also felt quite resentful the fact that IVF had taken so much away from my life. I felt it had impacted loads of my relationships. And this was one thing that I really didn't want it to take away from me was my job. Okay. Yeah. It must have felt as well like you're doing all this IVF. It's so much money. It's so much time. It's so much emotion and draining. And then to see pregnant women day in, day out and possibly,

you know, probably a lot of women who didn't really, you know, who didn't have to do IVF and it happened fairly easily for them. That must have been really difficult. Yes, it was. But at the same time, when you go to do your job every day, you've got that hat off. So that was my job was to be Sophie the midwife and to make sure that everyone got the best care that I could give them. And it wasn't really an option to not provide that because I want to be the best midwife possible. So I was just very task-orientated of I must be the best midwife I can be for these people. And so then I wouldn't really, I would really try and shut that part of my brain off until I was at home. And then obviously at home you kind of do let all those emotions come.

And yeah, it is hard when you're seeing other women who got pregnant really easily and you think, well, why hasn't that happened for me? Or I want that so much, why can't that happen for me? With your own journey, you said you ended up doing IVF. Can I ask the time frame between starting to try and then going into IVF? Yeah, so I'm very impatient. And it was a year from when we started trying for a baby to us starting IVF. Obviously, that would not have happened on the NHS.

We weren't eligible for NHS funding, so that was probably why. it was a lot quicker, because once we realised we won't get it waste time waiting on the NHS, we just went straight in there. Sorry, that could be a too personal question, but I was going to ask why you weren't eligible for NHS. No, that's fine. So it's postcode lottery anyway, depending on where you live. So different areas fund different numbers of cycles.

And where I was living at the time, I was living in South East London, and there was funding for IVF. However, I have low AMH. Right. And so that's anti-malarine hormone. And so it was so low that I wasn't eligible for funding in my CCG, which is the clinical commissioning group. So the area that I lived didn't fund people with very low AMH.

Really? So just straight up, no. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. That is so crazy. That is so bad. So there's different stipulations in different post codes for a woman's criteria. Yeah, I mean, lots of different criteria.

So some CCGs won't fund people if you've got a child from a pre-cgues. previous relationship. I mean, there's loads of different criteria. That's so, that's cruel, isn't it? That is really cruel. Yeah, I mean, it felt, it felt like a kick in the teeth. It was like you're so infertile that even we're not going to fund you. Yeah. Oh my God, yeah, I'm not even going to try. Because that's, just because you, I mean, you've done rounds of IVF now, you know that it, you were able to collect eggs, you know, even if it wasn't a huge, you know, a huge amount but that's so cruel that they won't even let you try that just seems really yeah and it's and it's often those people who need it the most right the people with lower AMH I mean it felt particularly

brutal because I think I was like 27 or 28 at the time really yeah so it was um and yeah it just felt like so a lot of CCGs will have criteria about if you're over 40 or the like different age cutoffs and I was like but I'm 27 or however old I was at the time and it felt really really cruel. Yeah, it did feel cruel. But also, I work for the NHS. I understand that NHS is chronically unfunded. And so, you know, there was no arguing. No one was going to turn around and say, okay, go on then. So, you know, that was it. It was just a firm no. So I had to move on and unfortunately pay for it ourselves. Does that manifest as anger or disappointment? Oh, gosh. I mean, across the whole kind of journey, I would say I've felt all of those

emotions a million times over. Yeah. Can we ask then what, so you started IVF And then, like, how did it go from there? So our first round of IVF, and bearing in mind that I think people think that midwives know quite a lot about IVF, and we don't, we really don't. And so I was really unprepared as to what it really entailed. So my first round of IVF is kind of a mixed bag. So as predicted with someone with a low AMH, I responded really poorly to the medication. And at one point, I was only growing one follicle, which, if you don't know, that's terrible. And I thought they were going to cancel the cycle

And I thought, oh my God, that's why they don't fund people With low AMH because I'm so bad at IVF, that's what it felt like And then some miracle happened And I managed to get seven eggs I know, it was... What? I know. And one follicle?

No, no, so a few more follicles just all popped out of nowhere. It was actually, and I write this story in the book as well, but I went to a home birth the night before and then was awake all night and then I had to go for my scan at 8 o'clock in the morning. So I turned up to my scan, obviously like unwashed, having been at a home birth. And I had this internal scan and they were like, oh, my God, there's more follicles. And it was like they just popped up overnight.

And I'm sure it was something, because the home birth was so special. And I feel like it was some sort of magical oxytocin, I don't know, that had made these follicles pop out of nowhere. So that was really amazing. And then, so we went for our first egg collection, which I loved. Anyone who's had an egg collection, or if you're scared of having a little, an egg collection, don't be, because the sedation is incredible. Oh, my God, so good.

Very, very small kind of silver lining of having to go through something so crap. And, yeah, we managed to get seven eggs. And then four eggs fertilised. And then on day five, we had one embryo left. And so that was transferred back. And very fortunately, I did fall pregnant. And it turned out that that embryo split and I was having identical twins. So it was kind of a real rollercoaster

from thinking it was going to be cancelled to then finally being told I was having identical twins. Yeah. It was mad. Oh my gosh. Are you comfortable talking about what happened next? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I share it so openly

because even though it is fairly rare, actually we all know someone that's gone through baby loss, so spoiler alert. But yeah, so it affects so many people and actually having gone through all of this and been so open about it, all of a sudden people like pop out of the world, woodwork of like, oh, I had to do this, or I went through infatility, or I had clomid or, you know,

and actually you realise that everyone knows someone that has gone through it, but just no one talks about it. Yeah, I mean, absolutely brutal. I can't even, that must have been so just incredibly painful. Yeah, so I obviously found out with identical twins. That was amazing. It was one of those moments. You know, like on the TV and you see, and they turn the screen around and there's two babies

and you're like, oh my God, how has this happened to me? And then fast forward, 21 weeks, and I went into spontaneous labour, just out of the blue. And then sadly my twins were born, obviously, very early, and they couldn't resuscitate them. It's too early before viability. So then, obviously, they very sadly died. Yeah, and it felt just atrocious. I felt like I've gone through so much to get them. I was so anxious that something was going to go wrong, and then it did.

Which, it was just heartbreaking. There's not really the words to describe that feeling of having to say goodbye to your children that you love. Oh, God, I can't even, I can't even fath them. Yeah, I'm so sorry. That's just something that nobody should ever, ever have to go through. They were twin boys? Yeah, twin boys.

We didn't know what we were having. We were like excited for the surprise. Obviously, we knew they were identical, so it was going to be two of something. So that was really lovely, finding out that they were boys. And, yeah, they were just so wanted and so special. And I think that was possibly one of the hardest parts is that I felt like that was our only chance gone, because that was. our only embryo at the time, although actually the next day we did find that another

embryo from our, going back to the transfer, a second embryo was frozen, but it wasn't ready until the next day. So we did have another embryo, but day six embryos weren't sure how good quality it was. So it literally felt like that was our one chance. That was like all our savings gone. And it wasn't even about the money. It was just the unfairness of it or just, you know, it just seemed so wasteful, like two tiny people just gone. Yeah. And was there any medical reason that, was it connected to your struggles with fertility that you lost them? Or it was just something unconnected and like so unfair? So it was not related to the immatility. It turned out that I had the delightfully named Incompetent Servics, which is where...

Who named that? What a horrible name? Lots of people find that name quite upsetting, but I actually kind of find it almost a bit funny because, and I feel like that's a bit of dark. humor. But it was pretty incompetent, right? It did not do the job it needed to do. So I think, I don't mind that name, but I can understand why people would be upset about that. But yeah, I just feel like a really shit name. It's such a blow. It does explain what happened. So essentially my cervix was not able to kind of stay closed and keep them in. And so I went into very early labor with them. But since then, I've had that cervix shown up, sewn up, sorry. So that is

a, you know, God, they can sew up a cervix. Yeah. So, well, Well, there's lots of different sutures that you can have, but I had quite an invasive one, which is called a trans-abdominal circlage. And so it's like an abdominal operation. So, like, they cut you where they would do the caesarian. This is post-having the twins. And, yeah, they sew it up, not completely, otherwise you'd never be able to have a period, but they sew it kind of almost entirely shut.

Really? And that stitch stays in there forever, which is... So if you were to have a baby afterwards... Caesarian. Because, yeah, that's big... Yeah, that's not... So, yeah, that is a, that's a no-go zone. Yeah, exactly. It's like a damn.

Yeah, exactly. So that's, that's, nothing is going in or out of there. Wow. God, okay. So that was, what year was that when you lost your babies? I had them in 2019 in April. I had the stitch in the October of that year. It does feel like you were, like, the speed that this happened was all quite, like, quick, I suppose, for the, because it's between then and now, because you've had, you've had, you've had, you've, You've had a little boy. I have, yes. What was the next steps to getting your little boy?

So after I had the twins, I had, unfortunately, a piece of retained placenta for nearly three months. And I was fuming, well, obviously I was fuming for many reasons, but it meant that I couldn't do any more IVF. And that seems so bizarre because I was so devastated that the twins had died, but then just desperately wanted another baby. And so I felt like I just wasted three months of my life, just sat there with this bit of placenta. beside me. And so once that had been removed, which I had to have a surgery, that didn't work. It was due for another surgery. Thankfully, this bit of came out. And went back to my IVF clinic, was like, let's start IVF now. We did a few tests. We realized my cervix was too short. Had to go on the waiting list for the circlage. Had that done. Decided we wanted, oh no,

we did a terrible round of IVF. That went terribly wrong. Went back to our original clinic. We had a round where I only had one follicle. They, I feel, really mismanaged the cycle. They advised me to go for an egg collection with this follicle which was never going to be mature. And so my one egg that I got didn't fertilise. So I was very upset about that. Then we were like, right, let's change the clinic, went on this huge kind of journey to try and find another clinic, went abroad, went to the UK, found our clinic, started taking medication to start IVF. COVID happened.

All the IVF clinics shut. And so we had to wait for a few months. And then following that, I did something like five rounds of IVF back to back. Without a break, just, you know, one after one after another. Is that collection and transfer? So I did something called embryo banking where you just do collections because I knew that my AMH had dropped really low by this point. It was one.

And so I wanted to just try and get as many embryos as I could. So I did four egg collections. ended up in total with five embryos to freeze. Okay. And then I did a fresh transfer at the end of the last day collection. That failed. Then I did a frozen transfer and I fell pregnant and had my son after that. Wow.

And when was that? He was born. Oh gosh, now I'm going to get this wrong. 2021, he was born. Okay. Yeah, he's going to be tea. So that was, how many rounds did it take to get him? Seven.

Seven rounds. Yeah. Can I ask if it's not too, like, crass a question, how you were able to fund it? Yeah, I mean, sometimes I think I absolutely have no idea how we did that. The first round, we had some savings, and my first clinic was actually very expensive, and so we spent the whole lot on that first round, and then after that, every time my husband got a bonus, we would save that money and spend it on IVF.

And then along the way, we moved house, and we borrowed extra on our mortgage so that we could pay for more IVF and essentially, because I've now done 11 rounds of IVF and yeah, it's just a combination of working really hard, saving really hard. Actually, the round, the frozen round that resulted in my son, my mum paid for.

But yeah, so we've essentially just spent, we spent all of our money on IVF, so every time my husband got a bonus, that would be what we spent it on. Wow. God, that's so lot. It was a lot of money, yeah. When I think, like, oh, I could have a nice kitchen or some nice holidays.

Yeah, it's a bit frustrating, but, you know, my son is definitely worth every penny. Yeah, and wonderful that it was, like, a weird gift from your mum, that it was that round that work, which is lovely. Mom, if you're listening, I'd definitely like to have another baby soon. Yeah, please. It must have been obviously amazing falling pregnant with your son, but was it anxiety-inducing the... the pregnancy itself because of what you've been through?

Yeah, I would say being pregnant is one of the hardest things I've ever had to go through both times, but the second time was particularly excruciating just because every second of the entire pregnancy, I thought he was going to die. And it wasn't just I was thinking I was going to go into labour because obviously my cervix was sewn shut. So that was unlikely, but just every scenario I was like something is going to go wrong at some point and he's going to die. And that lasted the entire.

pregnancy, including the day that I went into hospital to have him. Do you think maybe being a midwife, you knew more of what could go wrong? Feels and anxiety. Yes, absolutely. You know, no one could tell me that it was really unlikely to happen because... You've seen it? Yeah, I've seen it happen and something really unlikely has already happened to me. In fact, loads of really unlikely things have already happened.

And I know exactly the worst case scenarios that could happen because I've seen them so many times. Oh man. Yeah, so ignorance would have been bliss. Yeah. Oh, if someone could have just put me under a gemal anesthette for nine months, sign me up. But you had a wonderful little boy. Congratulations. Thank you very much. It's so lovely. Were there any moments of relation throughout the pregnancy?

Was it all, I mean, sorry, not obviously when you found out, that must have been amazing. But I mean, throughout, did you get to feel the beautiful experience that you'd craved or was it all just really hard to do? Yeah, it was mostly just extremely, extremely hard. I was just so anxious that I wouldn't let myself really have any moments of like thinking it was all going to work out because I was so fearful that it wouldn't. So yeah, no, no, it wasn't. It was just hard the whole time. There was very few moments.

I would say when I was in a scan, I would be kind of reassured for probably about 10 minutes after it finished and then after that I'd go back to being anxious. but I guess they were the moments that it felt better. Yeah. Did you get access to any therapy after your twins? No, essentially. There's such poor provision for bereavement services. So it also is a bit complicated if you don't live in the area that you give birth in and things like that.

So after I had my twins, I wasn't offered essentially anything. and then when I was pregnant with my son I was what I can now see is very unwell mentally and still I was rejected from perinatal services three times like there was literally almost almost nothing on offer even as a midwife that seems crazy because it feels like if anyone would know how to access it it would be you and it's still not available to you

so that's just cruel and it also really depends where you live and where you're having a baby So when I had my son, I was working in London, living in Essex. And so there's such disjointed provision as well. So it just all felt a bit of a mess. But essentially, I had nothing. And it was really hard.

And it also was a massive toll on my family as well, because they had to essentially just look after me the whole time. By the time I was kind of in the mid of my second trimester, then going into the third trimester, I essentially couldn't be left unsupervised because I was so anxious. And so someone had to almost babysit me the whole time. because I was so worried that I would need to go to hospital and there would be no one to take me

and my husband was working in London and so my parents and my brother and my sister had to do like a roster of like who's going to be with Sophie today which was amazing that they all stepped up but obviously just took its toll on them as well were you able to work throughout your pregnancy so I actually worked up until the day before

I went to have my son but I was admitted to hospital for two weeks in the middle with threatened preterm labour which was not what I wanted to happen, like a really similar gestation as well that I had my sons. So I was off work for a few weeks after that. And then because of COVID, midwives, you couldn't be patient facing in the third trimester. So I really fortunately was working from home doing like an e-midwife role. So I did work up until the day, the other day before I had him.

I found it really helpful for me at the time because I could just be at home where I felt relatively safe. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Because that's an added thing. You've got your anxieties completely justifiably about what you've been through to get pregnant and what you've been through in the past. And then you're doing it in a pandemic as well. Yeah, that was definitely the first trimester when it was kind of fully COVID-E.

That was pretty rubbish. Especially because I felt so physically sick and you have to wear a mask and all the PPE. You're like, disgusting. You have to get on the train. Yeah, that was pretty horrible. Yeah. So you have your son now. It's Percy.

Yeah, Percy. Yeah. And you're continuing with IVF to give Percy a sibling. Yeah, yeah. So we, yeah, on round 11 now, just a glutton for punishment me. Wow. Yeah, I know. Sometimes I literally lose track of where I am.

I'm like, how many have I done now? It really does blur into one. Obviously not successful so far. But I feel really strongly that I want to give Percy a sibling. And most normal people don't even have to think about that. like they just want a sibling, they'll go and have a sibling. But I really don't want him to be like the boy with two dead brothers. Because we're really open with him about, obviously he's not quite too,

but he does like point out of the picture and say brothers. But I just don't want that for him. I want him to have a living sibling as well. So I feel really committed that we are still on this journey to have another baby. Have you had transfers since having Percy? Yeah, so I've done four, well, I've done four rounds of IVF. and the first transfer was failed and then I had two cycles back to back

which were cancelled. That was annoying. One was cancelled because my lining wasn't thinking off. The other round was cancelled because I ovulated, which again seems really annoying because you'd think you'd want to ovulate but you do not want to ovulate if you're doing IVF and then the 11th round is ongoing

so who knows. Wait, you ovulated during stimulation? It was a frozen, so I ovulated during the frozen transfer. Right, right, right. Oh wow Oh my god I know it was bizarre Yeah

I'm trying to get my head around that Sorry so you had the collection And then oh you were just doing a frozen Yeah just being a frozen So because I did one I did one that was failed Started the next one which was cancelled Because my lining wasn't thick enough

Then I started another one straight away And somehow I think because I'd done three cycles in a row My body was just doing its own weird thing And yeah Orviated along the way somewhere You must be so sick of home hormones. Yes. I mean, I feel like I'm just permanently on HRT. I mean, yeah, it's just the

norm now. I said to James, like, that's my husband. I literally like popping pills like there's no tomorrow. Like my little boy Percy, because I keep them on the table. So I know to always take them with like breakfast and dinner. And he goes, mummy's vitamins like every day. I'm like, oh my gosh. Like that's his impression of me is like just popping loads of pills every morning. Can I ask about your husband and how it's been, because it does sound like you have got like, a one track mind when it comes to it and let you say like the control and stuff. Is he kind of like on it with you or like how does he respond to how has he responded to what you've been through? So my husband James is really chilled. He's just so chilled, which is the

perfect antidote. He's so supportive. We've always wanted to have a family together. And so when that didn't happen, you know, we were very much like, okay, what are we going to do to have our family. He really found it hard when our twins, Cecil and Wilfred, died and still continues to find it hard sometimes as well. But he mostly, he wants another child too. And so he's right there with me. You know, he is really supportive. Definitely, since we had Percy, I've only done Frozen or attempted to do Frozen transfer. So it's very little kind of actual effort on his part but he is yeah he's really really supportive but is he okay like i feel like this is a conversation that women have much more openly now and like we're able to have much more

openly and it and it does feel and just like seeing the toll that it's taken on you all and listening to your story and so many women's like it's such a physical ordeal as well as a mental one for for women but i do feel maybe that the conversation's opening in that regard to you and but sometimes I don't know how the partners of the people going through IVF are. Do you feel like he gets support or maybe he doesn't need it? I don't know. My husband is actually quite an open person anyway, actually. I'd say he's probably more open than I am.

So he is quite happy to chat through things with his friends. So, yeah, I think I'm quite lucky that he's that sort of man and not all men or not all people are like that, really. So I think that has been really good for him. and we've got very close families as well so yeah he's very open about that I think in terms of bereavement support there is not loads out there for men

it is definitely more aimed at women although there are some great resources out there but I think overall it just is really dependent on the person isn't it rather than I think it's hard for the partner because it is so physical for the woman you know everything happens in the woman's body Even if actually, in terms of fertility, if it's actually male infertility, the woman still has to go through the IVF.

So it's so unfairly biased towards the woman that even if it was a male infertility problem, it's actually still for the woman. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it's just a really, it's very unequal and there's not really that much you can change about that because obviously IVF is in the woman's body. So it is difficult for men. you know, like I don't want to, yeah, not to compare it anyway because we haven't been through half, a quarter of what you've been through. We've only done, you know, two air collections. But I remember the second round and I didn't respond, my body didn't respond to the second round the way that it did with the first. I actually, it went pretty okay

with the first and the second one. We had to, I like doubled the medication and did stimulation, I think, lasted for three weeks. And I'd done estrogen priming before that as well. It was just a lot and I was definitely done by the end I remember the morning of the egg collection waiting in the waiting room and the receptionist asked my husband like how are you doing?

And I remember feeling I mean this is probably irrational as well but I remember feeling so furious that she was asking him how he was he was yeah probably I remember being like what do you mean how is he

you know I have like a pincushion at this point like I'm bloated to hell I can't like my you know everything everything's in chaos. And I was like, why are you asking him how he is? But it's true that they do, they do need some support as well. And I think, yeah. You need to deal with the, yeah, to deal with the roller coaster of me. Yeah. I remember the time being like, just furious. That's probably why she was asking. Yeah. Dave's just sitting there looking scared while I'm just

like, fume coming out of my ears, smoking out of my ears. But yeah, it's true. that they do need support as well, yeah. Do you have any recommendations on support that is available for, I mean, I'd like to talk about it for women as well, but just while we're on it, if there's anything that you'd recommend for any men going through, either bereavement or IVF? Yeah.

Do you know? Yes, so for bereavement, Sands, so there's stillbirth and neonatal death charity, they do some male-specific support. I think they do the Sands FC, like the Sands Football Club, so it's obviously for men who've lost a child, or a baby so that's pretty good

and actually Sands do do support sessions where in person and so we did go to a few of those together as well and it was quite nice because it is couple or it could be anyone really but it's mainly couples so there were other men there

and I don't think my husband would have gone unless I had dragged him along but that was quite good for him there's a few podcasts there's one called Dad's Still Standing which is again aimed at men going through baby loss The miscarriage association has some resources aimed specifically at partners as well

and then in terms of infertility I would say there is much less for men in terms of fertility support there was quite a good book that my husband and I read which was called The His and Her's Guide to IVF I think and there's a section written by the women and a section written by the man and we both I think read both parts of it and found that quite useful as well I think there's the Fertility Network, which is like a national organisation, they have some resources on for men as well. So there are some pockets out there, but it's definitely a lot, there's a lot less available for men. Can you tell us about your book, which is available now to pre-order, isn't it? Yeah, and it's coming out on August 31st.

So I have written a book, and it's a memoir. So it is kind of the story of me working as a midwife, people I've looked after, families that have really, and kind of imprinted on me, kind of interwoven with me going through IVF and my son's being born. And yeah, just that kind of intersection of working on both sides of fertility. So, you know, being there with women who are pregnant and having babies and then obviously struggling to have my own babies as well. Yeah. Amazing. I think it's going to be so valuable for so many women because, like, you know, you've got such a strong community now on Instagram and it does feel like the conversation around fertility is changing so much, which is so wonderful that it is

more open, but it still feels like the way that we talk about women culturally and the way that we, the expectations that we put on women, that it is going to be the easiest thing, that we're all want to do it, that we're all going to do it. Like, it's still so huge. So to have somebody, I think the fact that you are a trained midwife as well is just really valuable for people to, and you've had your size. which is such a wonderful thing in amongst so much pain and struggle that you've had so much, I just think what you're doing is really important, that you've had your, like, your perfect little boy, which is amazing.

Yeah, thank you. I mean, that means a lot. It is, yeah, I mean, I think when you're a midwife, there is so much, it's such a huge role. So it's not just the pregnancy, it's not just the birth, it's the whole thing. And actually what I've learned from being an infatile midwife is actually, how to look after people a lot better and how to talk to people. Because language, that is the one thing that I've learned from my own experiences is that language is so important. And actually being able to share that, you know, with other midwives or other people working in women's health

of actually it's not okay how we speak to people. It's not okay. How, you know, the way that we reference like incompetent cervix. I think, you know, things like that, which are just so patriarchal anyway. And so actually being that person that's on both sides, I feel really useful. Can I ask the sort of thing that you have learned to, when it comes to your own language, just maybe that anyone listening could adopt into their own lives as well? So I think that people are really frightened of asking if, so for example, if you know that someone's had a baby that's died, like people are really unsure of how to broach that. And so they just don't, they just kind of gloss over that.

And actually, I don't speak for everyone, but the vast majority of people who've had a baby that's died, that is still their baby and so mostly people want to talk about their children not with everyone but mostly if you're kind of if you know a person enough to be asking about their children

you probably should be including the child that they had that died and most people want to tell you things about them so for example for me like Cecil and Wilfred those are their names they died but they were 21 weeks old I have very little memories because their life was so short

but I have their names and so if people ask me their names that's really important because I gave them that. That's something that I chose for them. That's part of their identity. And so that is, I think, really important to ask people, like, did you name your baby? Or, like, what was your baby's name? So don't be frightened to, you know, don't be frightened to ask that question

because actually the name of the baby is really special to a lot of parents. And one thing that I would also like to share is that we should not be asking people. Like, are you having children? That is the worst question. you should be asking someone and I don't mean from like a healthcare perspective if you're a midwife then you are asking people like how many children do you have and that sort of thing

but like in casual conversation I think we think it's really acceptable to be like have you got any kids and if you're trying for a baby and that's not happening that is so upsetting because then you have to kind of almost explain like no I don't or or I do and it they die you know it's a really hard question to answer

and it just seems so normal but actually for quite a lot of people that question is really upsetting. So they're kind of the things in terms of language that I really take on board. Like I would never ask. And I have definitely been guilty of asking that question before. Me too.

I'm having this really like hot flashback to like years ago when I asked a colleague that and she was going through IVF and I just didn't know and I didn't think and I just said it and I'm like feeling very hot right now. But yeah, I guess you just don't know. You just don't really understand. But it's important that people do understand because it can be really impactful in a not good way.

Yeah, and I've made all of these mistakes myself as well. Like, I have absolutely asked people like, oh, you're married now, when are you going to have a baby? Because that just seems like the normal question. And now I cringe for every time that I've done that in the past because I know that that would have been really upsetting for potentially all of those people that I asked. Can I ask about doing it on Instagram?

Because sometimes, and like, I mean, I get so annoyed at the internet anyway, but some people, well, lots of people, have opinions about lots of things they shouldn't necessarily have opinions on. But I have seen people project opinions about IVF where they have no place to do that. Is that something that you've come up against on the internet? A little bit. I would say on the whole, the IVF community on Instagram is incredible actually. Like most people are so supportive. I actually think Instagram is one of the best platforms for social media because people tend to be really respectful. I would say that Other social media platforms, not naming any names, TikTok, is the worst,

and you will just get hideously trolled on TikTok. Have you tried being on TikTok? Yeah, I'm on TikTok. I mean, I got a trolled recently, and this is nothing related to IVF. I got trolled by, I think it was something like 100,000 people, because I posted a little video saying that my one-year-old son, I ate the chocolate buttons out of his party bag. You got?

I got hundreds of thousands of messages saying that I was going to. going to give him an eating disorder. Because you ate his chocolate buttons. I ate his chocolate buttons. Of my one-year-old child who doesn't know what chocolate is. You also gave him life. You can eat his buttons. Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? It was so... The anger on TikTok is unreal. So I tend to stay away from TikTok. People just play with people like on TikTok. They don't give a shit. No, that's a really mean place. Whereas Instagram I do feel is amazing.

I mean, there has been like a bit of a little bit. But I would say mostly everyone's really respectful. Although you're saying that like some of the other people in the infertility world on Instagram I know have been trolled but me personally I have had just a super positive experience most people are really respectful and and yeah I but what you're just got to be really careful of is you know like the daily mail comments and stuff like that like they're the sort of things where people will be trolling and saying like well you shouldn't have a baby this is nature's way of telling you're not to be a mum and all of that stuff with comments like that I would say

I don't get loads of those although so how do you cope with like the rhetoric You know, that sort of view of IVF. I mean, it's just really ignorant because infertility is literally a disease of your reproductive organs in some way. And so if my kidney was not working, no one would be like, oh, you can't take those antibiotics for your UTI. It's a sign you're supposed to get an infection and die. No one would say that, would they? But because my ovaries aren't working, people are like, oh, well, that's it. You know, you just have to carry on.

You can't have a baby. and actually there is so much emotion attached to your reproductive system that people feel that they can make a judgment on your ability to parent based on whether my ovaries worked or not. I mean, it's so stupid, isn't it? And I bet the vast majority of people saying things like that do not experience infertility, do not suffer from infertility? No one would say that.

No. Because it's just a real lack of understanding because if we break it down, it's a biological need, it's a biological drive to want to reproduce. boost, isn't it? Yeah. And so, but my ovaries weren't working in a way that they should have done. Yeah.

And so we can fix that with medicine. You know, medicine fixes loads of things. Like I said, you take antibiotics for things and you'll be fixed. You know, we would, you know, if you think about like mortality rates for women in childbirth, you know, medicine helps us. You know, the science of medicine keeps our, keeps our species going. Because you wouldn't say to somebody that's had a caesarian, an emergency cesarian, oh, well, that was just nature's way. You should have finished you off, really. You should have just died.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. See you. You'd be doing this podcast on your own. Yeah, but it is infuriating. People are just, people are just annoying. And I don't think they'd say it to men. If it was, if the fertility issue were a man's issue and it was men's, because like you say, even if it is a man, the fertility affects the man. It's still the woman that has to physically go through it. But if men were going through IVF in the same physicality that women were, I don't think people would say it's nature's way. Because like people view, yeah, you make your sperm work.

You go, be a man. Well, that's because there's just so much of women being the mother. And so if you're, and I write about this in the book a lot as well, that actually if you're a woman that can't be a mother, then you're almost like a second class woman. Like, what are you if you're not a mother? And I hugely felt that. I was like, okay, so if I can't be a mother, like, what am I?

Like, I literally was like, okay, so if I get to 43 and there's no children, we're going to just leave the country because I can never face speaking to anyone that I've ever known ever again because I felt so ashamed. Yeah. Yeah, it's hugely emotional, isn't it? Like, we're conditioned to think that a woman equals mother. And so if you're women equals what? If you're not a mother, what are you?

You're just invaluable. That's how I felt. And that's something that women that are child-free by choice make their peace with and whatever. But if it's something that you really want, it's like you're confronted with that. Well, I think that what you said there is, like the nail on the head is about the choice.

And so if you don't, aren't able to have that choice for whatever reason. So, you know, if you've got someone who just never meets a person that they want to have a baby with, that their choice to have a baby is restricted. There's so many reasons that women's choice is taken away from them. But that is the crux of why infertility is so hard is because there is no choice.

It's not a choice, yeah. Like if I chose not to have children, that's my empowered decision. Whereas I wanted to have children and it was really, really hard. And I guess there's an aspect of then, when you explain it like that, then I get it of like wanting to lose the country and not face people because there's an aspect of like everyone knew that you desperately wanted this and that you've tried so hard to get it and then you don't want this sadness to be hanging over you.

Like pity, I guess, a sense of pity. That makes sense to me, yeah, totally. Yeah, I mean, I felt like everyone is always looking at you like, oh, look, over there, that's Sophie, and she wanted to have a baby and she can't. Or she had some babies and they died and she's done all this IVF and blah, blah, blah. And you just feel really exposed. Yeah. And actually we were like fairly private about IVF to start with.

And yeah, you just feel like everyone's feeling sorry for you or looking at you differently. Like you're not the same as everyone else. And I think it's because of this, as I mentioned earlier, like woman equals mother. Like that's the woman that can't be a mother. Yeah. But I've noticed this with you. People ask how your eggs are, how you're, and it's like, don't fucking ask that. Like people say to you, because they know you're doing it.

Yeah. And then they think they can ask. And it's like, you wouldn't do that to somebody else. Or you know you shouldn't do that to somebody else who would just be trying via other means to have a baby. I wouldn't be like, how's shagging going? You just wouldn't do it. But like people ask that don't even know for sure.

Because I was super honest on Instagram. I went in very naive and said, you know, we're freezing embryos. My AMH is really low. And like we want to like future proof. And so I documented the first round. Big mistake. Didn't go down well.

at all. I just got so, I got so many, so much pushback from it and I was too anxious at the time to cope with that pushback. So the second round, I just kept off Instagram. But I think I'd said at the time that we were going to do two rounds because my AMH was low and I wanted to like have enough in the freezer to, to, to, for peace of mind basically. And when with the, yeah, so I kept it off Instagram, but people, because I'd said about the second round, so people ask me all the time. Do you think that's because people think that there's in the media about like freezing your eggs or freezing your embryos is associated with like privilege? Yes, there was a lot of that, a lot of privilege, a lot of, I have been through, you know, a lot of people saying, you know,

I have been through such, you know, it's been so brutal what I've been through, like trying to get a, you know, to end up with a baby in my arms and that's not even what you're doing. You're just, you know, banking some just in case. You know, there was a lot of that kind of. Well, felt like you were taking it a bit lightly, I think. And taking it lightly by sharing, like, sharing, like, me doing the injection and, like, Dave helping me with the injection. And I just couldn't take it. So I stopped, yeah. It was a very mean response to what happened.

And, I mean, it was a shame because, actually, for a lot, for most people, actually, they were like, oh, it's cool to see someone actually talking about this openly, rather than doing it, like, privately. And sharing openly that I've got low AMH and I don't have many follicles. going on, same as you, probably. It was a pretty similar situation. So, yeah, but I just couldn't take negativity. I was not, I was too anxious for it. So, yeah, kept second round private. But people still ask all the time and the second round didn't go very well. So I'm like, well, not great. It's such an invasive question. It is invasive. And actually, even though, even when people are open about it, like, it doesn't mean that you have to share every minute detail of how

it went. Like, no one's going to ask your partner, like, what was your sperm can Does anyone ask him that? No, they don't. They ask, how many eggs did you get, though? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the sperm count we don't care about. Yeah. Yeah.

It was very mean, I think, with the, with, it was like you weren't being a, like a perfect. I think that's another pressure on women to like do it stoically, do it quietly, do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do it sadly or do it however it was. And you did it in your way, which is more than you're right. But for some people, that jars, because it's just not their way. And I guess that's kind of what I was asking, that's kind of what I meant with the response that you've had

because it's such a raw thing. It's so emotive, isn't it? I didn't realize going in just how painful and triggering this. Triggering, that's what it is. Topic is for a lot of people. Understandably. Yeah, I mean, I post on Instagram with quite a bit of a delay

in terms of where I am with treatment. Yeah. Because I... It's a good idea. Yeah, top tip there. Yeah. So I don't post it in real time anymore. But I did when I was doing the embryo banking.

And the reason for that is because I was just banking the embryos, there was no chance I was going to be pregnant at the end. And so I just felt no pressure. Like I can just share this in real time. Whereas now, yeah, I post with like a bit of a delay. So when I'm posting that I've like had a cancel cycle, it's actually probably happened like six weeks ago. Fine.

And because I, yeah, I want a bit of privacy about it. That's the thing. Sometimes when you do open that up to everyone, it's then hard to take it back, isn't it? And so having that bit of a delay for me just works a lot better because then I can process it and think about how I want to kind of share it with everyone. And yeah, so that's what works for me at the moment is to share with a delay. There is something really vulnerable about the world.

And it doesn't, not with fertility, but with everything, the world knowing that you're trying something. Well, there's that expectation. Like, people are waiting for that good news, aren't they? Or like, if you go quiet, everyone's like, oh, oh, are you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. the 12 weeks. You know, and recently I said that I had something to share with everyone. I got loads of message being like, are you pregnant?

Sadly, no. But thanks for rubbing that in my face, that I am still not pregnant. I mean, that's, and I guess part of my, like, personality on Instagram is trying to have a baby, right? And so that's what everyone is always waiting for. They're waiting for another baby because they want to be happy for you. Yeah. But also, actually, when you are living it, it is so, so emotional. and raw.

Yeah. Was there any pushback to you having a baby and people saying, well, you've had your baby now, you know, you're not, I mean, I know it doesn't mean that you're not infertile anymore, but like, were there people saying that,

you know, you should be happy with your lot and you're, you know, you've had one child, you're so lucky. There definitely is a bit of that rhetoric. Again, I say most people on Instagram are really polite, but I think people really don't understand infertility the second time round.

So I don't have secondary infatility, secondary infertility is when you had your first baby without any help and then you went on to have invality. Right. Obviously, I've just infertile again still. And so people really don't understand that because they're like, you should be happy now. Yeah.

And I am happy. It's not a binary of like, oh, you're happy or sad. Or like, I'm not unhappy with Percy. In fact, Percy's so amazing that I want another one of him because he is so cool. And actually what I say like normal fertile people, they just think, well, I want a family. family of three children, so that's what I want. Well, that's what I want, too. And so why should I not give myself the best chance of doing that? Absolutely. And also, I hurt no one else by

doing IVF. Yeah. Right. I just put myself through it. Yeah. Yeah. There's enough appointments for everyone. That's why I'm talking about your thing when it's just people like, well, you're all doing a collection and I've done this. It's like, okay, okay. We can all do, we can all do one life. There's enough for everyone. And that's, yes, there is a bit of an understanding. And actually, when before I had had Percy, so when I had no living children at home, I would be angry at people who had a baby and then were like moaning about doing IVF because I try not to moan about doing IVF because I feel hugely privileged that I can do IVF and it is my choice and I want to do it. So I try not to moan about it, although there are bits that are annoying and you can

moat, you're okay to moan. But I think that, yeah, even I misunderstood that before I'd had Percy because I was like, well, you have your baby now. Like you should be happy. and actually what I now know is that you can be happy and still want another child and what you wanted for your family you can still want that it's okay to want your family of three children if that's what you wanted

no one else has to think oh well you know maybe I don't have enough eggs like if you choose to have three children and you're able to do that then good for you like why shouldn't I be why shouldn't I have that as well and so yeah it is massively misunderstood and actually a lot of people who are like in the infatility world feel kind of really not they kind of feel a bit displaced once you've got a child

because you don't quite fit in with the people that don't have a child obviously you have this huge joy from your child like before I had Percy I just was so sad and now I have Percy there is that huge amount of joy and actually IVF is less miserable when you've got something so lovely to give you a cuddle at the end of the day so yeah I would say that infertility a second time round is massively misunderstood yeah and it's just it's just yeah I actually You hadn't, I guess I thought about it the same, to an extent, you're like, well, you've, you've got it. But then it's like, but you haven't. You've got a part of it.

And that's amazing. But that's not the end of your dream. And it shouldn't have to be. That's what I don't understand is it just feels, again, very misogynistic. It just feels like we're just telling women, be happy with your lot. Stop trying. It's embarrassing. Sit down.

Stop making a fast. Just be happy. It's like, why should you? It's your life. It's your, like, dream. You should live your dream. And we've got fingers crossed for you, you know, wishing you the absolute best going forward. And thank you so much for coming and sharing what I imagine, you know, is something that's very difficult to talk about.

But thank you so much. Where can people find you on Instagram, please? So you can find me on Instagram and sometimes on TikTok as the Inverteral Midwife. And you can pre-order my book on Amazon and it comes out on the 31st of August. And we are going to put a link to the book for the pre-order in the show notes. and we thank you so much for being here today. Oh, thank you guys so much for having me. I really love chatting to you both.

Thank you. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.