Should I Delete That? - The Magic of Marian Keyes

Episode Date: September 15, 2024

It is a HUGE day for the podcast... the girls are joined by Em's hero: Marian Keyes! A woman who needs little introduction, Marian is one of the most successful Irish novelists of all time. She released her debut novel, Watermelon, almost thirty years ago, after embarking on a journey of recovery from alcoholism. She tells the girls how becoming sober helped give her the sense of hope she needed to start writing a novel. She also discusses families, life, and the menopause in this fascinating interview. They say don't meet your heroes, but Em is overjoyed that she did!You can buy any of Marian's books from her website here: https://www.mariankeyes.com/books/ And listen to her podcast, Now You're Asking, with Tara FlynnFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I find people fascinating because I found life baffling. I found other people like baffling. So I studied them all the time. It's a kind of an automatic that I'm kind of taking notes on a subliminal level. I know that sounds really creepy, please. I apologise. But I always start with a woman. Hello, and welcome back to Should I Delete That.

I'm M. Clarkson. And I'm Alex Light. How are we doing? I'm good. you. Good. Good. Today's a good day. Today, we have the best guest ever. I know. Literally, literally, literally the best guest. I've never seen you so excited for a guest in my life. And you never will again. This is it. They say you don't meet your heroes and they're wrong. I did and I love her. She was so good. I've been listening on Bookbeat. I've been listening to Rachel's Holiday ever since.

It's a great book. It's really good. It's really, really good. It's so good. But they're all good. That's the magic. That's the magic of Marion. They're all great books.

And we've got a great interview, so we are going to, like, rattle through this GBA, quickest one we've ever done so people can get what they came for. Tell me something good, something bad, or something awkward, please, Alex. Something good. I had a night away this week. Yes, you did. I had a night away in the Cotswolds in this, like, beautiful manor house. house with Disney Plus to celebrate rivals the TV show, the Jilly Cooper, the TV adaptation of

of Jilly Cooper's book. And it was like a nice full circle moment because obviously we interviewed Kelly who casted the series and we talked all about that in that episode. So yeah, that was and I got to take my sister and it was really, really fun. It was so nice to have a night away and just I mean, there were a lot of TikTok people there and they were all at least 10 years younger than me but that's okay I loved them I loved them

I think did they keep you young? They kept me so... Bit of both, bit of both. I straddle the line. I, if I didn't have so many other bads from this week that would be my badness that I wasn't invited because I am a huge Jilly Cooper fan Oh, this is second, no need to marry in Keyes in terms of female authors that I love of.

Of course. I grew up on jelly. I love Julie Cookeye. I think she's like, absolutely go. So when you text me, you're like, are you going? And I was like, this is so awkward because I haven't been invited. I'm sorry. It's okay.

Alas, I have plenty of other bads to eclipse it. Hit me. And I'm pleased you had a nice time. Okay, I'm going to barrel through them. They're all skin deep. Okay. First of all, flying to. Barcelona with we had three kids under three was chaos all in capital letters yeah it was

absolutely it was carnage yeah flying home just the one kid because we ditch the other two because they were they were going somewhere else they're not mine if you're new to the podcast i only have one don't worry um i was returning with my own and um our flight got cancelled and then the new flight got delayed so it took us until 1 a m to get home with my baby horrific And I was so sick. Like, I, my HG, like, it's quite good. We've got quite a good thing going where it's like, it was my best friend's wedding on Saturday. And it was like, I've got you.

Like, you've got today. And I didn't throw up all day. And I, and I, like, loved it. And I got through the day and I was fine. And I just had, like, loads of full fat Coke. And I was like, yeah. Sunday. Oh, my God.

It was so bad. They had a day two of the wedding and I did not leave the bathroom. Like, it was really bleak. And then we all the flight to barrenters. Horrenders. Anyway, fine, got over it, got through it But then we got home I cried for about three days

Because I was like, I'm definitely depressed Don't need to go into that It's circumstantial, definitely H-G-E Yeah, so, yeah, a little bit depressed But I'm fine, I'm fine, it's fine It's fine, it's the weirdest thing To be lonely When you're with people

But that's kind of what I feel at the moment I think because I found the last two weekends have been two of my best friends' weddings and it's like I can see who I'm supposed to be with these people and I see who I'm not. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

And that's been really hard for me to deal with it. It's like I know how I'm supposed to be behaving at these weddings. I'm supposed to be the last on the dance floor. I'm supposed to be life and soul. I'm supposed to be like there with all my bells on for my best friends and I can't be and that's making me feel really lonely which is quite odd. And then I just got over.

with my depression. I woke up yesterday morning and I thought, you're fine. Christmas is coming. The baby will be out at the minute. And then Bless Alno's got the hand, foot and mouth. And she's so good. And actually the GP was quite alarmist and sent us to A&A. And then they were like, she's fine. Just go home. So yesterday was all dramatic.

And so now we did bless her, she's just in absolute bobbins. And it's been like literally stuck on me, which is a joy. But when I'm feeling a bit ill, we're both just like, Anyway, bad week Oh my God, yeah Okay, it's been a bad week It's been a bad week That doesn't sound fun

In any capacity I'm fine What about you? It all seems fine Yeah, yeah, it's fine Let's put a big old plaster over the lot of it It's fine

Honestly, here's the rug If you could just Get that little broom for me And just Oh yeah Can't say a thing We'll ignore all of it My bad

I mean, again, let's barrel through it, but my, oh my God, it's all fucking chaos here. Why are our lives on fire? Lives on fire, honestly. I'm still bleeding like there's no tomorrow. Tommy's, Tommy's got a cold, I've got a cold. We're still struggling with Tommy's feeding. He will not be put down. And let me tell you, like, I cannot even.

He will not go in his cot. You shouldn't put a healthy baby down. He will not go in his cart for a second, not a second. And I am so tired. I am just so tired. But anyway, I know I're not supposed to talk about our kids. That is my true bad. But I'll bring us back up with my awkward.

Oh, good. Let's go. Okay, well, it's not that exciting, but I felt extremely awkward in the moment. It's an awkward by proxy. I was on the road. Yeah, I'm crazy that it's not my awkward when it's. me on the road but it's not

I was on the road and I came to a traffic light junction I don't know I don't know the correct terminology but I was stuck at traffic lights and I was going straight on but there were also traffic lights people turning left you get me? My traffic lights were on red but the ones on the left were on green and the man at the front of this very long queue

was just staring off into space like there was just he just hadn't know where to go and nowhere to be and he was just not in the room with any of us and I was like desperately trying to wave at him because and everyone was beeping him as well people were just beeping him because he was just stuck there literally staring off and I was just I was trying to wave at him and he was just having it was just having none of it and I was looking at him and thinking I would die if I were you like that is one of the most embarrassing things to be stuck stationary at a green traffic light and you're the front of the queue how embarrassing

How long did it take him? Did he miss the light completely? Did it go red again? No, but he got out of the green light when he finally realised because enough people were beeped. But only him and one of the car and then the red stopped to just wait in the red light again. I was like, oh my God, mortoed. Like traffic irrational never doesn't ring me joy. Like I have to check myself so much when I get road rage because I literally have to think, like, you can't be annoyed at the traffic because you are the traffic. Yeah. If you're in the traffic, you are the traffic.

Check yourself, check yourself, check yourself. But I can't. I rage. I hate it. Oh my God, I hate traffic. There's nothing. It's akin to just being in a queue. Well, it is being in a queue.

It is like being in a queue. One of my least favorite things in the world, which is really bad because obviously flying is such a privilege, but being in a queue at the airport and that security queue or like being in a, oh, no, being in the check-in queue. And there's just, it feels like there's no hope. It just there's no movement. and you're just stuck I don't mind the people cue

I don't mind the like I can see you with my eyes cute it's a traffic queue I'm like I'm so alone there's no connection there's no things I don't thrive but you can like

listen to your podcast you can sit down you can chill you know no it's it's too passive I like a real cue because I can

oh no I can just I can live it I can do it I don't like a real key but if I had to take a real queue or a traffic queue I'd take a real cue or a traffic queue

I take a real cue. Oh, I make someone to scream. Scream or dance. I see that for you. Dance, like, I don't know. Not actual dance. Love that. I'm just like shake my body to get rid of the like annoyance.

Right, well, that's something I need to see. My own awkward, I love that you haven't got one for yourself this week. I'm proud of you. I know. I have two. The first one, they're only little, so I have two little halves. The first one, there was a hairdresser, did our hair for Ellie's wedding, and he didn't speak a word of English, I didn't speak a word of Spanish. If Pitbull didn't say it, I can't speak

it. And I was sitting there, and we were just communicating via Google Translate, and then in that blunt way that only Google Translate can, I got a message from him that was like, I have used two types of anti-humidifying products in your hair, but I cannot work a miracle. Full stop. Oh, no way. Okay. I felt that's absolutely brilliant. So scathing. I was like, right.

It's as good as we've got then. I'll see you later. Understood. Right. And then my second is I really excitedly went to try a Pilates class in the day, except it wasn't a class because I didn't think a class would be a good idea because I am not well. So I went for a one-on-one just to see if I could do it because I obviously have not been very well. Really enjoyed it.

I'm actually going back today. But it was only in the final minute when she said get into the position, what's the position called the one, the child's post, that I caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror behind, and I realised that my leggings totally see-through. Oh, no. My entire ass crack. I saw in the mirror.

I was like, oh, blah, I didn't need to see that. I've nodded anyone else in the studio. It was just me and her. So I'm going to burn them, and I'm wearing a new pair today. Oh, she will, she will have noticed. You can't get, yeah, you can't really get away with that. Like, they're like two massive boiled eggs. Like, they're like two massive, like duck eggs.

Like, oh, they're huge. That's a horrible description. I don't like that. I do not like that. Eggs. They are. Like, two massive eggs. Horrible.

It's not, it's not wrong though, is it? Well, you know what I'm going to say is it serves you right for wearing thong? Yeah. I know you, that's fair enough. It's certainly right for wearing like 10-year-old leggings. Well, yeah, that too. That too. Like, yeah.

Do you have a good? Yes, I have two. One, my best friend got married, and it was absolutely sunny. And just like the lovely Samuel cried, loads. And then marrying keys on the podcast. Ah! So, so, what are we still doing here? What are we still doing here?

My God, I'm like, as, people did not come to this episode. to hear us waffle about traffic jams and... And bomb holes. And... Such is the pull of Marion, that they're probably still here, going, I'll fuck up, shop, up, shut the fuck up.

Which we will. Okay. Guys, you know what an absolute legend, Marion is already. She has sold millions of copies of her incredible books all over the world in hundreds, dozens. I don't know, loads of different languages. And I'm a super fan, obviously, and we loved it.

We absolutely loved it. So without further ado, here is Marion Keyes. Hello, Marion. I've done this off air, but I have to do it on air because all our listeners will know what a big deal this is to me that you're here, because I talk about you all the time. Oh my God, you're such an aim. I'm so surprised and delighted, like, thank you.

I don't think you should be too. surprised. I am one of millions of fans of your work and your books. Well, I've read all your books. And I have always said to anybody who wants to like start reading fiction, because not everybody reads fiction that grown-ups is the best place to start because it's just the best book I think I've ever read. I think it's my desert island book. And it's just like, it's my comfort. It's my home. And you write so beautifully. And I hadn't realized until researching you that you didn't start writing until later in your life. And I think that's so cool because you've had an incredible career

that spanned so many different successes at so many different times. But you only started writing when you were 30. Is that right? Yeah. And I mean, it was such a strange time because I had done a law degree and kind of hopes were high that I'd kind of go on and do something amazing. And I didn't. I took my law degree and I came to London and became a waitress.

and everything was kind of my glittering future was far behind me very quickly and I didn't realize at the time but I was an alcoholic and it was only towards the very end of my drinking that I started writing

and I mean I'd no clue that it was something I wanted to do like I wasn't one of these people who had like you know half finished novels under their bed and hidden in drawers like I had no idea it was something I wanted to do and it was only when kind of the wheels came off

really badly, that something, something, a kind of an urge to survive. And I thought, I'm going to write, I'm going to write a couple of shows. Well, I wanted to write one short story at the time. And then I went to rehab. And it was only when I came out of rehab that I realized that actually writing was something that I was interested in and the few short stories I'd written were something that I was proud of. But like, I didn't have a career to leave behind, you know. Like, I was working in an accounts office in the architectural association, which is a big architectural school, but it wasn't kind of, it was just a job, you know, and I had never, when I was a kid and people used to say, what do you want to be when you grow up? I could never visualize myself

doing anything. I could never see myself being kind of functional and successful and happy. It was just this kind of murky blur. So then when I started writing, well, the real writing coincided with the start of my sobriety. I just realized today my sobriety is actually older than you. Because you were born in July, 1994, and I got sober in January 1994. I love that you know when I was born. Yeah, well, you know. That's, well, congratulations. That's amazing.

It's kind of like, because that's 30 years now. It is. 30 years. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's half my life. And, but yeah, that was kind of the start. And I had always been kind of incredibly negative and a very low self-esteem and kind of very good at self-sabotting the whole thing but when I got sober my attitude is very different so everything kind of dovetailed very quickly

but yeah you're right that we can start anew at any age because yeah at 30 I mean I look back now and you know it was so young but at the time I just felt ancient like I felt like I was as old as the planet

and in fact recently I've gone back to college and I'm doing I'm doing a course in interior design and you know like I do feel that really you can you can start again or you can pivot as you young as say you know at Andy stage

and that like you're never too old to learn new things or to try something different that's something that I always feel with your books even just reading your most recent one of my favourite mistake and our protagonist is coming on to 50.

Yeah, she's 47. She's 47 and it's so refreshing and so unusual for women to have character plots at an older age that include like boyfriends and careers and trying something new and moving to a different country because it feels like in so much of what society teaches us about women. Yeah, aging as a woman. 100%. I feel so much of your characters just listening to you speaking in what you give them

and the chances that you give them to change their lives at older ages and the chances that you get them to try new things and move to different countries and, you know, like moving to New York and then come back to Dublin and just doing, opting for new careers and trying different things at different ages. That feels like you're giving them the gift. Yeah, although I'm only reflecting what I see. I mean, I do think that there's a huge abyss between women as they're a present. in fiction, you know, like you read about women in their 40s and there's all, you know,

there's talk of cardigans and soft voices and, you know, wrinkled hands. It's like, what? Because, you know, the women in their 40s that I know are doing exactly what we were talking about. You know, they are changing careers and they are having sex and they are living fully. And I do think our idea of aging has changed maybe in the last, I don't know, 15 years in that like, you know there was a time when 40 was like you know you're like you're done so it's all over you know just say goodbye um you you know life you don't you don't count anymore and the fact that we live so much longer and we have the opportunity to stay healthy um for so much longer and you know I know it isn't for everyone but like the HRT is is has been so helpful for me just in terms of kind of feeling young in in my body um and just our attitudes I mean, we can choose to be any age, really. You know, and there are women I know who are like, you know, I've gone through the menopause and I'm so glad all that messy business is over

and I just want a quiet life. You know, I want to be peaceful. I love gardening. Like, you do you, absolutely, like whatever. But there are those who don't want those paths. And, I mean, I try and represent, I feel like it's my, it's what I love doing is kind of representing. women in their complexity and definitely it is there are women who are living the lives

that they might have wanted to live when they were 30 yeah yeah you do I mean even because she's advocating Anna is advocating for herself with her HRT in this book as well and it feels we're so used to seeing women being portrayed through I guess the male gaze that it's any mention of the menopause or any thing hormone it all it all felt like gimmicky when it was like a man doing and so simplistic and whatever and it's or it's her whole personality like yes the metaphors is her entire this is what she's going through so that's all we can talk to this character about whereas it just feels like it's but it's really wonderful as a reader to feel that shift to to grow older with the characters particularly with this book because it's following the

walsh family yes so it's like we've seen them when they were 20 and now we see them when they're 50 and they're still living busy lives and like you say having sex and whatever but they're also I don't know tackling the things that will be tackling and other women are tackling and they're just allowed to be complicated throughout their lives which we don't allow you yeah and I mean the thing about the menopause is like suddenly I mean and I'm so grateful for this you know we can say the word without kind of you know the heaven's opening and a bolt of lightning striking us down she said menopause um like it's great that it has become a word that is just you know And that people are realizing this is something that actually, you know, 50% of the planet goes through at some stage in their lives.

And that it is different for everyone. But for an awful lot of people, it's very, very unpleasant. And that women should be allowed to get the help if they want it. But so Anna is going through it. But it's not her whole identity. It's just something like HRT is a small but important part of her life and she would like it. because it makes it easier for her to be Anna. And she has a sister who just doesn't want it, you know.

She has another sister who wants to be still applied with it in her coffin. That's Claire. Then she has Rachel, who was so kind of loved up that she, you know, the endorphins have this wall. And, you know, the hormone problems can't get through. And then they have Helen, who is the youngest one, who isn't going through it yet, but is really worried because she's already so. angry and hates men so much, that she's afraid that once she comes to the menopause, that she will actually not be able to stop herself killing people.

And she wants to start a podcast for women who have been wrongfully imprisoned for killing their husband when all they needed was a little bit of HRT. But Anna, it's just, yeah, she wants it. And she finds it difficult to get it because, I mean, this is something I've encountered and loads of women I know. You know, you go and you meet a young man who has a... opinions about your body. And he has no idea what it is like to be 54 and feel like you're going insane. And he'll, you know, in the book, this fellow told Anna that like, you know, it's just a

natural part of women's lives, you know. They got through it like long before this HRT business was invented. And she wants to say, like I've wanted to say, yeah, you know, like legs have been amputated since the dawn of time. But if I had the choice between having a done with the general anaesthetic or without, I would go with the general anaesthetic if you wouldn't mind. You know, that sometimes things are invented and they are good. So yeah, it is kind of infuriating to be infantilised by doctors. And it happens to women a lot, no matter, no matter really what your complaint is, but especially when it comes to reproductive health in any way. Right. And we've both said, like, that's what we've both experienced recently. And it's

just it's really strange to witness it like to experience it firsthand and to see how much that it's not even like you're not believed it's just you just not take it seriously yeah isn't it so bizarre even with female doctors like patriarchy is going to keep patriarchying um because yeah because it's internalized in all of us like it's really it's so subtle and it's so there and it is a lot of work to push back against it speaking of the patriarchy and sex is I want to know what that's like in the publishing industry because historically I guess

it has been rife. It has been rife, yeah, it has. I mean, I feel kind of uncomfortable, I'll tell you I feel uncomfortable talking about it for me because I feel like I have been so fortunate and I have sold so many books that I've been able to make my living from it

and I think maybe things have improved but like for a long time men would not read any fiction written by women, whereas women will read fiction written by men and women. And it's just that the gatekeepers in media in terms of book reviews, for example, have been men. And they have been reluctant. I mean, I think it's unavoidable, really. Any human being will only kind of focus on a book that they're interested in and think, okay, we'll review this. But the reviewers were male as well. So you were getting,

male literary editors given the books to male reviews and male reviews may not always you know vibe with something by a woman and so they're not bringing an informed opinion to a book by a woman not always um and it bothers me in so many ways because i mean and fundamentally it bothers me because it's about earning a living for female for women writers um it's not just about status. It's not about respect being shown. It's about paying the mortgage. And I mean, this has to be seen against the entire, I don't know, breadth of patriarchy. And like everything a woman does, everything a woman does will automatically be afforded, be less worth than a similar or same thing done by a man. Like, it's like across the board. I mean, that's why men think

they know more about women and pregnancy than women do. Because it's just to be, I'm a man. And, you know, this is not a man-hating thing. This is, like, just an acknowledgement of the fact. Right. Even the fact that all books written by women are just deemed chicklet. All of them. And it doesn't matter, like, what, it doesn't literally, it could be the most somber, harrowing, devastating book that you ever read in your life. Yeah. Women's fiction. Yeah.

But she's just got her chicklet books. Yes. Yeah. One of her girly pots. Yeah, she's happy there with her pink. Yeah, exactly. I'll leave her to it. Yeah.

short words. Yeah, exactly. A lot of explanation points. Lots of explanation for years. Yeah. It's so frustrating. I have a question jumping back to something you were saying before about Anna and her HRT. And it does feel that a lot of your characters have, that have come from experience. You know, you can feel such a relatability to the characters.

And I'm sure a massive part of that is your writing. But one thing I've always wondered and wanted to. know. It's about Rachel. Yes. First book about Rachel was Rachel's holiday. Yes. And it's about her going to rehab. Yes.

And it was genuinely, I think, one of the best books I've ever read. Me and my mom talk about it all the time. And if my mom sits still, sits anyone still for long enough, she'll tell the whole synopsis of this book, because it's so cleverly written that she goes to rehab for a problem that we don't think, she doesn't think she has. The reader doesn't think she's, we're all on Rachel's side. And then you just watch Rachel unravel. and it's so messy and beautiful.

But you're saying that you were struggling with alcoholism in your 20s. Was Rachel based on your life? Not on my life, but on her experience of addiction and rehab in particular. Because, I mean, we had different addictions and different lives. I mean, I lived in London. She lived in New York. And, you know, I didn't have a luke, that sort of business. But when I went to rehab, I honestly,

thought there was nothing wrong with me. I thought that I was very depressed and I drank because I felt too much, you know, and I knew that the place I was going to, I was told it was very tough and I thought this is excellent. They'll have the finest psychiatric minds in Ireland and they'll come and kind of solve the problem that is me and then I'll be able to go back and drink normally. And so that kind of utter delusion, Rachel had it too and none of the people in the book are based in any way on anyone that I met when I was there. But that kind of, that whole process of going in blindly resistant and realizing through kind of interacting with other people also in denial that she did have something profoundly wrong. That was my experience. And, you know,

our lives subsequently, you know, after she came out, I didn't relapse, for example. But that, that was what I wanted to write. That was what I wanted to. And it was funny because I wasn't crusading in any way. Like I just thought, well, I'm a woman who was in recovery. This happened to me, like I was 32, I think when I started writing it. I thought, well, I can't be the only one who got into trouble with addiction quite early in life and went through rehab and came out and lived different life. I felt that I was representing somebody, even if it was only me, but I knew it

wasn't only me. And I wanted to tell it with humour so I wouldn't scare people away. And also the funny thing is, like even when I was in there, it was not the worst time of my life. Some days it was. But we used to have such belly laughs because it was so, I suppose, tense and scary and really dislocating a lot of the time, that there was an awful lot of of, you know, real gallows humour, but we did laugh. So she wasn't me, but that whole arc, that whole kind of denial to realisation, acceptance was definitely based on mine. Can I ask how you ended up in rehab if you had that denial and you didn't think that you

had a problem? Well, I knew something was wrong because I was like literally suicidal and it was a suicide. a kind of a really kind of, you know, pathetic suicide attempt that kind of alerted. It was some kind of, it was saying, I don't know how to live. Okay. And everyone around me had been telling me I was an alcoholic. I still didn't believe them. I knew I drank a lot, but I felt it was just because I was so uniquely miserable.

And the idea of rehab really appealed to me because it meant that, I mean, the bizarre thing. that I would not spend money for six weeks because I owed money to everyone and I thought if I go to this place and I do the six weeks then everyone will think I'm really good and well-intentioned and everyone who is pissed off with me

will stop being pissed off with me and I can come back to London on this kind of you know and I have stories to tell you know and it'll make me interesting I mean the absolute lunacy but I suppose there must have been something underneath that made me think well no I don't know if I would have because I honestly the last thing I could consider was stopping drinking you know I think if I had thought that that's what was in store for me I wouldn't have gone really because yeah yeah because you didn't want to stop drinking oh my god I didn't it was the it was the most heartbreaking thought like it was my best friend like my only friend and I like loved it so fiercely it was the one thing that

that I felt I could depend on to take care of me. I know it's bizarre, but it made perfect sense at the time. And the thought of being without it. And fully, I mean, by the time I came out six weeks later, I was fully convinced that, like, I was an alcoholic, but like I grieved it, the way you would grieve, you know, a boyfriend that you had loved really passionately, you know, like it was a real sorrow.

Yeah. I think that's what you do so, that's what you do so beautifully because addiction is such a complicated thing for those who haven't experienced it to understand. And I don't know, I don't think I've ever read a book that's done it quite in the same way as, as Rachel's holiday, in that you take the reader, they learn as fast as you learn, or they learn as fast as Rachel learns. and it's such a lovely way of sharing a clarity or a perspective that we don't often get and with things like addiction there's often judgment or there's confusion or there's whatever it is but it's done in such an endearing way that it's such a it's such a it's just a really unusual and different perspective but it's it's great thank you but i i i you've done such an incredible job with addiction, but all the Walsh sisters tackle their own issues.

Yeah, yeah. And actually a lot of your characters do, because in grown-ups, one of your characters is suffering with bulimia. Yeah. And that's something you haven't experienced, but you were able to tell, again, in such a relatable way. And how did you manage that? Okay, thank you for that.

I don't feel like I have the right to tell anyone's story unless I feel like I fully, fully understand the complexity of it. I mean I know people in recovery from bulimia a couple of people and they shared their stories with me I just did the research you know I know that isn't kind of an interesting question but it's really important to do the research

if I want to tell something accurately and empathetically and with compassion it's always got to be done with compassion like that is the most important thing I mean, you know, I've covered addiction a few times in my books and it always comes back to it's an illness. It's not something. It is not a moral failing.

So definitely, yeah, with anything mental health or addiction related, I've always tried to shine a kind of a pink light on it, a kind of a, you know, that it has got to be, that there cannot be judgment. And there but for the grace of God goes, any of us. But yeah, the research is important if I haven't been through it myself. And like there are some things that I have gone through, like addiction.

And like I had a really, really horrendous bell of ricketing mental health about 14 years ago, which inspired Helen's story for the Mystery of Mercy Close. But if I haven't gone through it, I will do the work. There's no other way. I won't write it otherwise. No. Yeah, so much of that story, the Beulina story is. It's the same thing with the relatability and the,

and the, like the warmth and the kindness and the fact that it's a small part of her, it's not her whole thing. And that's something that I love about getting to follow Rachel's character, sort of like jumping around the characters, but that's something that following so much of their lives is that it's not just, they're not held to the identity that she has an eating disorder and that's all that she is.

And it's kind of honest and so true that it's written within, and it's kind of, confronting in a way that she's got this illness in amongst this wonderful life that she has. And that's amazing and painful also. Yes, yeah, because it is just one part of her. You know, like she has, you know, she's in a relationship and it's a very loving one and she has two children and she adores them and she has a job where she's really well respected. She has like really good friends and she has this secret and it is in her head the whole time.

But it's thank you. Like I get what you're saying and that's the thing. I really want my characters to be flawed, fully rounded, you know, full of all the stuff, complex. But also kind of hopefully relatable in some way. Because that's all of us. You know, we all, you know, we all have stuff. We all have secrets. We all have like beautiful, beautiful aspects.

Like it's, we are. a universe where like each of us is a walking universe. Is it cathartic for you writing a character who's been through something that you've, who goes through something that you have experienced as well? Does it go deeper than just telling the story for you? Does it feel cathartic? Almost never. Oh, really?

Yeah, I think I have to be on very solid ground with something before I can write about it. And like even by the time I came to write Rachel's holiday, like I was, I wasn't out of rehab even three years. years. It might have been, three and a half years maybe by the time it came out. But I was already, I already had, I don't know, acceptance, definitely, more than acceptance. Like I had gone through like a really happy, happy time. You know, I'd really learnt that I could have a life, a really lovely life without alcohol. So I wasn't still kind of trying to make sense of it. The only book that I have found cathartic to write

was The Mystery of Mercy Close which is Helen Walter's book because when I wrote it I felt like Helen did and it felt when I was going through it was a nervous breakdown but you can't say that because it's not a recognised medical term and I felt very very suicidal but I nobody understood how I felt

like nobody like not psychiatrists not the people who love me not the people not the other recovering alcoholics so I kind of wrote that book to kind of go this is what it feels like it's not I'm not sitting staring out a rainy window crying sad

quiet tears like I was really scared most of the time but the rest of them nothing is cathartic like it gives me like real pleasure and pride to write

but also it can be really really you know, aggravating. I'm like, oh God, I've done the wrong bit here and I'm going to have to junk a load of work and, you know, it's a challenging job but it's the only thing that I really feel good at and I'm really grateful that they let me do it because I don't know what I'd be doing otherwise.

I don't want you to find out. Yeah. It's still with this. It's great. Do you credit your writing and starting your writing with going to rehab and getting sober, or is it the other way around was it getting sober that opened you up to writing? I mean, if it's such a weird, because there was a kind of a crossover, like I'd four months at the final crash and burn of my drinking

when I was writing short stories. But there's no way that that would have ever come to anything if I hadn't got sober. Because I just, I didn't have the discipline. You know, I didn't have any kind of, I don't know, work ethic or I didn't have any hope. That's what it was. Because I think starting writing a book is a very hopeful exercise

because I've no idea if it's going to work or like it will end up being a book. And I mean, honestly, I know this is quite traumatic. I don't think I'd be alive if I hadn't. I mean, I'd stopped everything by the time I went to rehab. I mean, I'd stopped going to work. I'd stopped talking to people. I'd stopped answering the phone. I'd stopped eating

I mean everything I'd stop like I couldn't and I was so so so desperate to just go to sleep and not wake up so nothing good would have come from that sort of life

because addiction is a progressive condition and it just it would have kept getting worse so but I was really really really ready that you know the writing was there and it was like I was so

excited and so hopeful, that word, you know, hopeful and happy. And I thought I'd give it a go at least. And again, I was just very, very lucky though. Things happened quickly because I know lots of writers who spent a long time trying to get an agent or trying to get published and mine happened very quickly. And I'm aware of that, that my self-esteem was still very low. And if I had been kind of rejected a couple of times I might have just decided not for me you know I was how dare I think that I was worthy um so you know I was incredibly lucky so many lovely things happened to me in a very short space of time and they all kind of stacked on top of each other and so I'm not really answering your question but if I continue drinking nothing good would

have happened you two have similarities and I always think this with Alex's family and the Walsh's in that Alex is one of five sisters. She's the eldest of five sisters. Yeah. Stop it. I'm just saying as you, right? Well, I five, there's five, but only two sisters.

There's three girls and two boys, yeah. But you're the eldest. I'm the eldest. Yeah, I'm the eldest. It's a curse, isn't it? Isn't it? Isn't it? Isn't it?

We have to kind of break all the new ground and we have to take care of all the others. And then, well, in my family, they make fun of me for being the organiser, the control freak, the one tapping the watch, you know, with the clipboard checking us all off as we leave the house, shouting at the late people. Yes, it's dreadful. And responsible for everyone's emotions and feelings. And safety and happiness. Yes, yeah. You can put that down.

Yeah. You can give yourself a leave. I know it is, yeah. I'm the oldest two, but not a five. Okay, of three. Yes. Still, three is a lot. Dewee is a lot

and the other two they're hopeless they need people what can I say yeah you pick that up you can put that down I know

I know we can always give the advice oh 100% yeah I'm in the world and I'm such a master with it as well I'm just like

oh they're such a burden but I'm not yeah yeah it has got a little bit easier for me over the years to feel like I don't have to swoop in

every time somebody breaks a nail you know I feel like yeah you know they're in their 50s now this is okay they're really

yeah you know they've got jobs they own their houses you know they've got kids but it's it's hard it is hard it is hard it is yeah i think you i think you have that you're like you cultivate this level of responsibility don't even know if that's the right word cultivate but

this level of responsibility and it never leaves you it's very hard you feel responsible you're yeah everything yeah that you have to keep them in line but also you have to help them whenever anything goes wrong yeah and you have to be nice when when things go wrong oh God, you have to be nice. Yeah, you can't say, well, you're fucking idiot. I told you this would happen. Yeah, exactly. Because then they go, well, I'm not going to come to you again.

Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, no. No, I love you. Come back. It's okay. Because at the end of the day, all I want is my youngest sibling's approval. Life is so unfair.

Yes, exactly. I'm like, you know, I'm cool. I'm cool. I'm down with it. I'm not judging you. Oh, God, you're so funny. Do you feel like that? Oh, 100%.

Yeah. My sister is no more more terrifying to me than my sister. Although I have to say, I love being wise. I love them. I love being told that. It's like very, very nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I do quite like that. And kind of, yes, I've been there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've come back from the front line and I can tell you everything. Yes, it's okay. You just listen to me and I will fix you all.

Writing the way you have with so many big families and so many of your stories and it's always, that's what it always feels like for me. If ever I feel lonely, your books are such an antidote to that because there's so much to them and there's so many characters and there's such a big sense of community. and I imagine that that's because you have your own sisters and brothers and nieces and nephews and yes I mean absolutely but I wonder with writing big families because you yourself don't have children no is that how do you feel writing characters for children and writing as writing these big families kind of bigger than your own if you're not an extending beyond okay that's a complex question Sorry. No, no, no, no, no, it's not. No, no, no. Okay. I wanted children. And ideally, like, yeah, lunacy, I wanted six. I just thought it would be great fun. Because, yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I hadn't a clue. Like, as soon, if I'd had one, yeah, that would have changed my mind fairly quick, I'm sure. No, I'm making that face because have it been coming from a big family, sent me the other way. Yeah. It made me be like, maybe one. Yes. But like I can't cope with the chaos of that many. You see, I love the chaos. Do you? I feel like you love the chaos. I love it. You see, and I really, really hate when I go over to my mothers. We go most Sundays. If there's only 10 of us there, it's like, oh, for God's sake, you know. Like, yeah, I like. I like. I like the noise. I love the conversations. I love people talking over each other. I love the mild arguments. I mean, I can't do any proper confrontation, but I like, I like mild disagreements about,

Will you move your car so I can get the blah, blah, blah. You know, that sort of thing. I love being held in that kind of rowdy, shouty, funny, storytelling. Where, like, I can just, if anyone is annoying me, I can just leave the room and go to another room. And nobody minds, you know, or, like, nobody eats at the same time. Even if food is coming, people start, like, milling into the magnums. You know, and the pizza is two minutes away. You know, that sort of thing.

Like, you kind of, it's anarchy in, and I know that I write big families like that because there are times when I'm there and I just feel so happy. And, you know, one of the kids says something hilarious or cute or wise or, you know, and I just, and everyone laughs. And the love that we have, especially for the younger ones, it fills me up. And I honestly, I write the big family. because I want other people to feel that happiness. That's part of it, without a doubt.

And I don't mind anymore that I didn't have my six. Like, I mean, I wouldn't have anyway. But I am kind of far too attached to my nieces and nephews, like far, far too fond of them. No, I don't think there's such a thing. Right, okay, okay, okay. Like, I love. Like, and I go on holidays.

with them. Like me and my husband, like we go on holidays with my brothers and sisters and we've one sister who lives in New York, but like, it's as if she lives next door to me. You know, we're in contact the whole time. And it's all about like really small things, you know, like, which kind of day-to-day stuff. It's not about any big things. Like the conversations are so regular. And my mother is 92 and is this tiny little terrifying matriarch. And it's this tiny little terrifying matriarch. And You know, kind of all power comes from her. And I don't feel sad anymore. I feel like all those gaps almost have been filled.

I mean, we have time still when we talk about how our life would have been if we'd had even one child. But like you get what you get. And like, there isn't any point being sad about it. I've been so lucky and there is still so much love and so many beautiful people that I'm close to that it's enough

it's more than enough oh but like but it's the truth yeah yeah you feel that though I mean even just talking to you it's I mean obviously I'm having an out of body like Fangol experience

I'm probably just dying inside I'm probably like seeing stuff that's not here but it does, it is amazing when you're speaking because that, that's kind of what I was, that's, that's exactly how I feel with your stories is that it does feel that there's just this, there's so much love within it and that it's so full. That's every one of your books, even though they're big books even, they just feel really full. And it's like you find so much life in everybody and you find so much complexity in everybody. And it's such a wonderful thing,

not just to be able to write, but to be able to see in your own life, to, like, have the awareness for how amazing the people in your life are. It's really great because I don't think a lot of us do that. I think a lot of us take our people for granted and our lives for granted. And it doesn't feel like you do that at all. I mean, thank you. I don't, but like, I'm going to be 61 in a week. Do you know what I mean?

Like, I think definitely, maybe I didn't value people as much when I was, I think life kind of softens us. In some ways, it makes us tougher, but in other ways, it makes me more grateful. You know, I suppose his life goes on, I can see how everything, almost everything is loseable. And so what's there really has to be, should be valued. And I mean, that's all grounded in kind of experience. You know, nobody, well, I don't learn anything easily.

I don't just wake up one morning and think, I know, I'm going to be really grateful. Like, it's only when you kind of come close to losing a person or experience. shapes us and matures us or changes us grows us grows us yeah i just realized if your birthday's next week you're a virgo i am a virgo i'm a virgo what age are you i was the 26th of august oh my god look it's doubly hard being the eldest and being a virgo it is extra brutal extra brutal we cannot have no time we haven't a hope yeah way too highly strong yeah way too highly strong way too meticulous there's a word conscientious that's what we are yes yes it is brutal yes it's a hard a heavy crossed bear as they say yeah heavy is the head heavy is the hedge that is the virgo eldest yes

i wake up and check my phones to see what disagreements i have to sort up to do my sisters today oh oh god no i wouldn't really be able for that i any confrontation has me like running for the hills Oh, you too. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Actually, do you know what? It's easier sorting out other people's confrontations than, yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah, it's a great deflection technique for me. Yes. Yeah, it's like, I'm too wise. You can't confront me. I fixed you. We'll fix you. I am Switzerland. Yes, exactly.

Leave me out of it. I really would love to know about the writing. Yeah. Your writing process. But I don't know if it's probably just sick of getting asked that or people ask it all the time. I'm fascinated about how you manage to, like, craft a fiction novel, because it is just beyond me how it is just possible. You see, I couldn't do what you do.

I couldn't write nonfiction. I mean, I do bits and pieces, but I can't just really boring. It almost killed me. It almost killed me. I mean, I was a writer, but I was a journalist. And so when I came to write the book, I was, I think I was a bit cocky. I was a bit, I'll be fine. My writer is going to be fine.

It's not being cocky. I mean, it's what you're using. But my God, it was hard. It was so hard. It was so difficult. It was so difficult. Well, thank you for saying that. You know, there's a load of people that will be encouraged by this. Yeah, writing is hard, but I read an awful lot. I always read, like, from the age of it, like, really young. Like, I could read before I went to school. And, like, I found being me so unpleasant that, like, I disappeared into books all the time. And they say if you start reading young, you kind of, you're in your neural, pathways learn how to construct a narrative and then like what you said am about you know my character's been all kind of full i just i find people fascinating again because i found life baffling i found other people like baffling so i studied them all the time you know because i thinking how how are they so comfortable how are they able to do this or that and why can't i so it's a kind of an automatic now um that i kind of taken notes on a subliminal level i know that sounds

really creepy please. I apologize. I like it. But I always start with a woman and sometimes I have an issue and sometimes I don't and then and then I world build really and I try. It's like you know when you're going out of an evening somewhere fancy and you try on things like like you know jewelry or whatever and you put things on you take things off. That's what it's like at the start of a book. Yeah. You know what I think is she a kind of person who goes sea swimming and think okay I this and then think, oh, I don't like this, you know, because, and I'll stop, or I'll lean into it, you know, but like, it's that sort of thing of finding, who is she? And you don't know, I don't know in the beginning. Right. But do you ever, I mean, using that analogy,

do you ever get completely dressed and think, I hate this outfit altogether? Yes. Like, this character is not going anywhere. Often, I mean, I hit walls all the way through. But I never, there's only one book that I completely... No, there was two that I completely abandoned. But mostly, I think, it's not... When I can't go forward, it's not because there isn't any point in writing the book. It's because something isn't right in what I've already written.

I need to go back or I need to go deeper before I can go forward. Oh, it's like dropping a stitch when you've knitted. That's right. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Exactly. You've got to go back.

You can't keep going. You can't keep going. Exactly. And so writing is all about rewriting. and, you know, the kind of the bursts of inspiration are very, very rare. It's a job. You show up and you write the words and most of them are shit and have to be deleted. And now and again, you'll get a sentence and you'll think, okay, that's good.

I actually believe that. You know, this character is taking shape or this plot has become believable. And it's like it comes into focus slowly. For me, this is how I write. Other people know before they write the first word Like Ian Rankin writes His first draft in 40 days Like that can take me two years

Yeah Oh my God Yeah Wow That's absurd Well Horses for courses I mean he's brilliant

And he writes a book a year And I'm not able to do To do that sort of pace Because It just takes me longer Which I understand But also It's kind of sad

I'm kidding More output please those two books that you that you didn't take anywhere yeah what did you would you go back no re-look at them i i i there was one that it was actually about claire from um the waltches and it eventually became the break yeah but um it was about a couple of where the husband wants to take a break and they they love each other but he won six months off i read that i read the break I'm really sorry to interrupt you while I was

nine months pregnant with Arlo No, correct me I correct myself I read it the day after she was born I picked it up when I got home from the hospital and it is literally

opens in a hospital where Claire's had a baby and a husband comes in and says I can't do this anymore I was saying really I was like if he fucking dared this is not a prophecy

What you were going to say you were inspired to ask Alice for a break and I was like wrong bad time I really felt for her because I was reading it at that exact time I was like, full of it.

I was like, I don't know how she's done it. But it was, obviously, she's fictional, so she didn't. But it was, it was a really odd time. I chose to read that book, but I'm, yeah, I'm sorry for that. God. Are you sorry? I chose it. Okay. Yeah, yeah, there were other books available.

I don't know why. And I got read the first page where I thought, I probably shouldn't be reading this now. I was like, no, I'll stick that. But it was amazing, obviously. And it all worked out for her. Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. Always out for her, always have for me. I didn't need to send to myself in her story.

I just, I just chose to. but sorry Carolyn And then the other one really wasn't meant to be it was just before I went off the rails at the end of 2009

and it was just a book that wasn't meant to happen That feels like inevitable right statistically yeah yeah that's it one of the audio books that I listen to

is Anthony Horowitz he has this detective a fictional detective called Hawthor but he himself is in the books and he says things like

I mean he talks a lot about being writer. And he says, you know, statistically, if you have, you know, if you've written X number of books, you know, you've got to expect some of them to be disasters. And then, as you say, some of them just not to, not to actually ever flourish into being a book. I mean, you have sold millions of books at this point. And it's, your books have been translated into so many different languages. And is that, I mean, it's the dream as a writer, right? but it's so few and far between the writers that that happens to.

Is it just, is it like computable to you? Is it just crazy to you that so many people have been, like, touched by your work and have invested in your work? Like, how does that feel? Oh, my God. I mean, thank you. I mean, I am incredibly grateful. I don't mean this in a bad,

would you still wake up in your own head? Do you know what I mean? Totally. Like, I'm still me with all the kind of the, you know, the low self-esteem or the kind of the negative self-talk. I mean, I'm incredibly grateful. And when I think about it, I, again, I feel so lucky. I just feel so lucky.

I'm grateful, but it's not something I kind of think about a lot. You know, maybe it's an Irish thing. You know, my mother is very, very keen for me to know that I am still, whatever, too controlling, yes, you know, too judgmental. You know, like... She's keeping you humble. He is. And also I suppose I learned to other things like when I got sober that like I have got to kind of be able to be the person I am regardless of my circumstances, you know, that I can't kind of, I don't know, internalize those successes and say, well, this is part of who I am. They are beside me. But they're not part of me. And I don't deserve any of what happened. I was just lucky. I don't know if I'm making any sense. But, Like, I have had to learn to survive without feeling like, I need that job, I need my husband, I need the whatever's for me to be okay in the world.

And that's been my process, I suppose, for the last 30 years. Right, so it's like your validation, you don't want your validation to... It can't come from it. Because, you know, it's going to go, like inevitably. Like, fashions change, people move on. And that's absolutely... Right. That's the way the world is. But now and again, I suppose, I let myself think, oh, God, this is lovely. Like today. I hope you do. But also what you're doing in London, which we haven't even talked about yet, which is devastating.

Yes. This is so exciting. But grown-ups is going to be made into a Netflix adaptation. Yes. I mean, lots of my books have been optioned over the year and I've always felt kind of, oh yeah. You know, and I was right to be skeptical. but this appears to be real. I mean, it's been greenlit and Tony and I, my husband and I, we had a meeting with the Netflixers a couple of months ago and they were just such amazing women, like there were three middle-aged women and they were like so sound and sensible and they had read the book, which is rarer than you might think.

And so, but tomorrow we're having a meeting with the production company and Netflix together and so like it's underway like there's a writer's room like the scripts are being done and the production company have also made slow horses

which is only like the best show of all the time ever ever do you know that your man River Cartwright got married to Sir Sharonan yes I didn't know that

like a month ago and he's got it who knew He's brilliant in the series. He's fantastic, isn't he? He's fantastic, isn't he? He reminds me of Simon Pegg. He doesn't.

He does. Very like Simon Pegg. Yes. Speaking of actors, do you get a sex? Yes. I don't probably. I mean, I would be happy to suggest. That's going to be so weird.

Yeah, they said they're going to cast Irish people. Well, that's great. Yes. It's wonderful. Yeah. Who knows? I mean, I'm an executive producer. I don't really know what that means, but I could.

I could advise, definitely. I think they should probably listen to me. Listen to me. Yeah. Oh my God, that's so exciting. It's going to be so, I love it when a book that you love turns into and a TV, particularly when you've read the book first.

Yes. Then you get to challenge your imagination and meet all the characters. Yeah, but they seem very, they don't want to change much. You know, most of them do want massive changes. But no, they're like they're sound. They are sound good women. I'm so excited. I'm so excited.

Thank you. It's so cool. Thanks. This has been, I feel like we literally could have kept you here all day, but we won't. I know. I can feel the disappointment with that for a end that we're coming to the end. I don't think so. This has been so wonderful.

For me too. Like it's really, really, really has. Thank you for your kindness, your enthusiasm. Like, you know, I have read about you both. I think you're both amazing. I'm so touched that you would want me. So, like, thank you. Honestly, I can show you the text

for me, like, the whole week. We're just going to believe it was actually happening. No. I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to lose my mind. Like, yeah. But you were so lovely. You know, yeah, like. That's not.

You're so lovely. No, but like when you messaged me. Oh, yeah, well, I just, I just, yeah. But you, you appealed to me, do you know? Because, like, I get out. on things and really I'm so pleased I should have saved my DMs for you honestly

because every time I mention you people go podcast podcast and I'm like guys how big do you think we are I'm trying it's Marion Keyes be more realistic they're not going to believe it when you're here when you texted me that I rang my mum and said you won't believe who's coming on the podcast she said no she's not going to because

I don't think she likes doing podcasts she said I've listened to her book and she says she doesn't like doing them that's normal keeping us which is good we mustn't get carried away so i don't know there was a date in the diary she's like oh wow oh wow you're very lucky then thank you like seriously thank you it has been really really really lovely thank you thank you this simply thank you okay honestly you're the absolute best i say we'll link all your books in the show notes but i know people know where to find you yeah we're referenced here

and yes yes i'm on instagram yes you've got your own podcast oh god i do yeah yeah Yeah, I'd forgotten. Yeah, it's different to this though. It's me and Tara Flynn, the beautiful, beautiful Tarifflin. And we solve problems. People message us with serious problems and lighthearted problems and we solve them. It's so lovely. Thank you.

It's good. Now you're asking. We're going to put the link to that as well in the show notes. We're recording the new series. We've done some and we've more to do. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network. I don't know.