Should I Delete That? - The price women pay to be good

Episode Date: June 4, 2023

This week on the pod, the girls talk to author, podcaster and former chief content officer of goop, Elise Loehnen. Elise has co-written twelve books, five of which have been New York Times bestsellers, and Em and Alex are joined by her to discuss her latest, On Our Best Behaviour: The Price Women Pay to be Good. Why can women rarely recover from their failures? Why is the patriarchy so devastating to boys and men? Elise shares her manifesto, which argues that the seven deadly sins (lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy and pride) have been used by the patriarchy to control women throughout our history. This fascinating theory expands on our episode with Jameela Jamil, back in January 2022, in which the girls spoke about why, as a society, we build women up only to tear them down. Pre-order Elise's book On Our Best Behaviour: The Price Women Pay to be GoodListen to Elise's podcast: Pulling the ThreadFollow Elise on Instagram @eliseloehnenFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

That's what's amazing about women. It's like we are boxers training at high altitude. I think as soon as we start consciously getting behind each other, then I think the world will start to rapidly change in a way that I think will be quite relieving to men. Hello and welcome back to the Should I Delete That podcast. I'm M Clarkson. And I'm Alex Light.

And I'm in Madrid. I'm thriving. I'm in rainy, rainy Madrid. I am so jealous. I would, oh my God, I love Madrid so much. Yeah. Oh my God, Madrid's so nice. Like, I feel very, I'm here for my friends and wedding.

So good. Yeah, I'm here for their wedding, which is gorgeous. It's today. Today's the wedding. And, yeah, it's in a few hours. So I'm having a lovely time. Like, first time, first I'm going to play with baby. Yeah.

How was it? First time abroad. It was good. It was good. I mean, I was not calm in the runner. Because I was just like, I know how everybody talks about babies on planes. So I was apprehensive, to say the least. But she was amazing.

She slept the whole beginning bit. And then at the end, she woke up on cracking form until we started going down. And then her little ears hurt. So then she was just crying in pain. And there's nothing you can do. I mean, like I was trying to feed her, but she's in pain. And no one threw anything at me or cursed. So that was okay.

And it didn't last for long. And then we got to the, you know, the bottom, got to the ground. And it was fine. Everything was fine. Oh, and then she did a huge shit when the seatbelt sign was turned on. So there's nothing I could do about it until we got to, like, passport control. So we lost two outfits. We lost two outfits on the day of transit.

Oh, God. It was her first international poo. And she loved it. Where do you change babies on a plane? There's no baby changing on planes. Because the toilet on a plane is barely big enough for one person to go in. Never mind one person plus a baby. I know.

I know. I know. So I was very nervous. And on the tape, I was really talking to a quiet. I was like, don't, like, I love you. This is a short flight. Hold it together. She did not.

But by the time she'd done it, it was, the seatbelt sign was on and we were landing. so I couldn't do anything and I was like we've got here now we're just going to I'm just going to get off the flight and run to the nearest lose in Madrid which is what we did so I haven't had to cross that bridge yet I may well have to on the way back so I will keep you pleased actually I'm kind of fascinated about how it works my friend told me that like before I came she was like yeah she said top tip sit on the window seat

so your partner has to go in the middle because then if the baby shit she's like well then yeah that's good shout actually So, yeah, she said the first time it happened to them, her boyfriend came back, like, literally, like, beads of sweat. Just, like, a huge queue of people behind him, like, so flustered. Because there's nowhere to put the baby in a toilet, in an airplane toilet. No, I think it's got to go on the floor.

Oh, God. This does make the question. What about accessible, like, what about accessibility? Like, never occurred to me. It's like, if a baby can't be changed, then there's no disabled, on a plane. I don't know how they get away with that. Oh my God, good point That is so crazy

It seems really unethical I don't really understand Like not the baby thing I mean that's manageable But like to not have to say with you I don't understand I don't like that Yeah

That would be an actual impossibility But I've see I have actually seen A reel about that Have you seen The woman who's Having to Her wheelchair

Won't fit down the aisle Of the aeroplane So she's having to like Go down the aisle on her on her bum and her hands like just pushing herself i know it's so i know it's awful so bad so bad more accessibility on planes yeah yeah yeah um that's my good my good is that i'm in madrid i made it here i have a baby abroad in like all good vibes i think a lot of fried food oh i love the food it's a lot it's it's very fried yeah it's it's so fried yeah so much tapas oh so every

morning i've woken up with it like coming back on me like nice it's nice flavor but like woof yeah no it's nice i think i'm at easter it um but no it's really nice my good is hot it's a good and it's also a bad but succession finished oh my god it's so good and the last episode was so good i literally could barely breathe oh my god okay i can't wait to go home so i can watch it oh it's it's um if you not watched any of it at all no so no because we started re-watching seasons one to three because I was like I want to be fully abreast by the time

the fourth season's like fully out and finish but then watching TV when you've got a baby is not because we do not do bedtime yet like we do not do bath bed parent time like we do like a chaotic two hours of an evening and it's quite hard to watch it so I've been saving

it for like for when she's moved out I suppose I don't know I've been saving it oh fuck it's so good but yeah oh my god it's so good

I honestly think it's the best TV that I've ever seen ever ever it's so good and you know what's remarkable about it is I don't know about you

but I don't fucking understand a word and they're talking about like a trade-offs and the selling but I'm like what but still I love it

but I put that on Instagram and then so many people replied and be like that's kind of the point like they do that on purpose it's like a narrative technique or whatever which does make sense

because even though I don't understand, I'm still absolutely hooked. But the final episode, fuck. Oh, my God, it's so good. I don't know if I just lack the ambition, but I think if I were in that family, I wouldn't pursue it. No way. Like, I just, you know, they all want to be the head honcho so much.

And I'm like, what's wrong with you? It looks like a horrible job. The man is 80 years old and, like, about to combust from stress. Like, just take a seat. have a glass of wine and enjoy that money. They've got so much money. Like, do something that you would like to do. Yeah.

Go on holiday. I just, I think I lack the ambition. It's just, it's not for me. Absolutely not. No desire. I'm, no, don't want that life. No, I would just be, I'd be the kid that was the, the eldest one. I'd just be like, no, I'll just, I'll take my money and spend it very badly.

O'Connor, yeah, for sure. Yeah, he's got the, mind you. Yeah. He's got the, he's a, yeah, but he's got the right idea. He does. He does. And he just like pays for his wife. I'm going to buy a wife.

Yeah. Love that. Gonna buy a pretty girl. That's what men do with money, isn't it? Do you have anything bad or awkward for May? Yes. Yes. Alex, it has something very bad.

Very, very bad. I did what you did. I hijacked a dead dog story on Wednesday. Oh no. Oh, God. So, lucky, one of my great. great friends. So we had these dogs together, right? She had Minnie when they were growing up, and I had Dodger, my king, light of my life. And they were both Labradoodles. And Dodger died

last, two years ago, two years ago when he was 14. And Minnie's just died and she was nearly 16. Like they were the same age. So when Dodger died and Minnie was still going, I've always been like, oh my God, Minnie's still going. Anyway, I saw Lucky for lunch the other day. And she was like, Minnie's died. Now, I've probably met Minnie like three times, but it's what Minnie. And he represents. Oh, no. And since she started crying, that Minnie had died,

and I'm so tired and stressed and hormonal. And I was just like, oh. And then I started crying. And then, look, it was like, why are you crying? I was like, I'm really sorry. I didn't need to hijack him.

But we're here now. So that we both just sat there and cried. And it was really bad. She's like, fuck you. This is my moment. Yeah, literally, fuck you. It's my dead dog. We cried to, like, you cried when your dog died.

Let me cry. when my dog died. Oh. Yeah. I mean, I get that. So sad, but I get it now. Yeah, I get it. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry I didn't understand before. But if it catches you at the wrong time, someone telling you that their dog's dead is just not a gay. It's like a dagger, isn't it? To the chest. It's like a full gut punch. And you just think, is the world not cruel enough? I know.

I know. That there's to be another dead dog. Like, surely not. Oh, Jesus. It's brutal. Anyway, okay. That's, that's brought me down actually thanks

sorry sorry yeah but she lived a very happy oh my god she lived to 16 like that's unbelievable yeah for a full size labradoodle it's literally unreal so oh my god if betty lived a 16 i would be so happy betty will and so will be they will both live to be 35 at least oh my god there's a um a dog has just the oldest dog in the world just celebrated his birthday and i think he's like 30 something. Hang on. Fabulous. Yes, he just celebrated his 31st birthday. Fabulous. I had a dream

last night that we used to have donkeys when I was a kid and I had a dream that one of the donkeys had turned into a horse. My mom was really excited. She's like, it's happened. She's like, it's happened. Like, I didn't think this actually happened. I was like, I said it doesn't. But then she took me out to see it. And I was like, that's just a horse. That's not the donkey. And she was like, no, the donkey's stuff. Anyway, anything bad yourself? Or awkward? Well, I have an awkward that's a repeat offender. Oh good. What did you do? Do you remember at your wedding when I went up to Ashley James's partner Tommy, right? I've never met Tommy before but I see I saw him on Instagram. I knew full well what his name was obviously so I went up to him and said I hugged Ashley and then I was look to him and

said hi I'm Tommy right obviously I'm not I'm Alex and I did it again yesterday and I hate myself it was someone in this meeting like a really important meeting and I knew that her name was Nicole but I'd never met her before so we walked up to each other and I said hi I'm Nicole I know and then I was like I was like oh my God no I'm Alex but I know that I all die it was so awkward it was so I was so uncomfortable I was like I'm Nicole why do your brains do that fuck my brain fuck your brain my awkward yesterday right okay so we were out for lunch in madrid at italian restaurant perversely because we already had enough of fried tapas um and so we went to this lunch and we said to so the groom is my friend like my childhood friend who i've known for ages and ages and obviously we're in madrid so we're all kind of like it's not a very big city so we're all kind of like randomly bumping into each other which is quite and we're all staying in the same hotels anyway quite nice um so his mom is staying in the same hotel who i know yeah and um We bumped into her yesterday morning and we were like, we're going out for lunch and she

was going to Zara. Anyway, she was like, we said to her, pop in if you want. Like, we're just having lunch. If you want to come by for a glass of wine after lunch, we'll be here. So I was like vaguely aware that she was going to be popping into the restaurant at some point. And then we were in the restaurant. We were sitting outside.

I was looking after Ollo. I was eating. I was, you know, being a social butterfly. I was conversing. I was doing many things. I was wearing many hats. And this woman walked in, and at the corner of my eye, I was like, oh, it's his mom. So I put my hand up, and I waved a jovial like, we're over here.

This woman waved back. I was like, that's weird, because that's not her. And I looked again, and she was still waving. My arm was still up. I looked behind me. And there was her friends with a big wave. And I thought I had that, like, stomach plummeting moment where I was like, I have fucked up. But I think I've got away with it.

I had not. Because Alex was looking at me like, oh, no. He was like, oh, no. This is really bad. I was like, shut up. He was like, no, it's really, really embarrassing. I've got the ick for you. And I was like, fuck off.

It's fine. He's like, it's not fine. And then he was telling Tom who we were having luncheon. And he was like, look. look at her with a little hand up. What a loser. So, cringe. There is just nothing more embarrassing in the world than waving at someone who is not waving at you. Shame on you. Shame on you. Shame. Shame. Shame. Shame. Anything. Anything bad for me. Anything bad for me. My bad is that I'm having a bad hairstyling moment, right?

Since I started using nioxin, my hair has improved so much. Like, even you've said so, like, it's so much thicker. I mean, even me. Like, I'm so forthcoming with compliments. I know, I don't know why I said it like that. But it's so much thicker and better and just like alive again. And I think when it was like pre-nioxin, I just, I was kind of like resigned with my hair. I was just like, I'm not going to do much with it because it's just like, it kind of just is what it is.

and I've, I've, I've not really got much, like, pride and it sounds awful. But yeah, I just, I just, I was just resigned. What's the point? I hear you. Exactly. What's the point? I just kind of accepted that it was just, it is what it is. Exactly.

And then Nyoxing came along, right? So I've had this great improvement. So I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to style my hair. I'm going to try new things. I'm going to like, look at TikTok hairstyles and try them. And it's just absolute shit. And it's just making me, making me very mad and for, because no matter what I do to it, it's just not good. Because I've realized that, okay, yes,

my hair is so much better and thicker, but it's still like, the hair itself is so fine. I've realized my hair is just, it's, it's so thick and lustrous. I just, I can't, I can't tame it. It's just too good. It's unmanageable. No, it's like the hair itself is still so fine. I literally, my hair strands are 100% see-through. You're talking to the right person I have very fine hair I just have a lot of it I can help

Okay but I have very fine hair But not that much of it Like I have more more than you used to But I don't have I don't have a lot of it I'll send you a photo of a thickening spray I put it on Instagram the day I bought a thickening spray

Because a hairdresser told me to And I put it in when I'm blowdrying it And my hair just looks so much thicker I don't know how it works I don't understand But I bought it and it definitely seems to work so I'll send you that okay

so yeah that's all that's why I'm like the only thing I can do is put it in a pony which is really cool actually because if you like okay look how thick up in it is yes no it looks for me yeah

because I have never wore my hair in a ponytail since I was a teenager because I was embarrassed that it was too thin like the pony was too thin and I remember my ex-boyfriend I put my hair in a plat and my ex-boyfriend's

pointed at it and was like where's the other one. And he wasn't joking. He was serious. He just thought like, I know. So I've always put it in a bun because I've thought that that's like, that that makes it look more like, you know, voluminous. Voluminous. Is that the whole? Not that. Valucus. Voluminous. Um, but now I'm wearing in a pony. So that's quite cool. But anyway, yeah, that's my bad. Yeah. I know she's annoying. It's just like, I just find it hard. I'm not good at styling hair. I'm really not. I can't do it. I Do this.

I tie my hair up and then I put the ponytail into a plait and it always makes me like even more hair. Oh, that's quite cute. My hair looks quite fine sometimes. Because I never washed my hair, as you know. So by the last bit, it all looks all wispy and fine at the bottom. So I always put it in a plat and then it looks thicker in a ponytail.

Oh, cool. Because during my pregnancy, my hair, when my iron was so shit, my hair got so, so thin. Yeah, just so shit. And I lost so much. And it's coming back. Thank God. I walked down the stairs in the day in Alex's like.

your hair, I was like, I know, nothing's different apart from the fact that I think I'm not like boardline infusion level of iron deficient. So we celebrate the bare minimum on my side, yeah. Oh, cute. Oh, I think it's cute. Yeah, okay, like that. Okay, nice.

Well, there you go. Okay, now, this episode, can I just say, since we interviewed her, I have talked to everybody about it. Right. Last night, I saw a girl I haven't seen in 10 years because I'm at like a school friend's wedding. and I sat next to her and she was like

she's an amazing human and she sat and she was like she's a baller like a real career woman and she's like traveled the world she was like living in Hong Kong and now she's an Amsterdam she's like business bitch right and she was like how is it having a baby

and I was just like great but I tell you what and I talked to her about this interview and about like the pressure on women and how the system is rigged and like the I just feel

found it so interesting and I haven't been able to stop thinking about how she talks about sloth and this like the pressure on women that we just can't be lazy and like I can't stop thinking about it like since then I've talked I've chewed Alex's ear off talking about it I've talked to like literally people I've not seen in years I think she was up more like broadly asking like does the baby smile yet and I'm like I tell you what's nuts like working mothers my God. Yeah, so we had Elise Lewin on. Do you know what? I feel like we've dug into a lot of stuff before and kind of like on the surface of a lot of the stuff that we talked about. Like with Jamila Jamil or episode with Jamil Jamil, which is really good. If anyone wants to go back.

But that was like I feel like there we really we talked about how we like build women up to tear them down. But I've never really had a handle on like why we do that and like where the like what the motivation is there and we really talked about that with Elise and she's yeah she's she's she's got this book all about how women are culturally programmed and like specifically culturally programmed to be good and how that manifests and plays out and causes harm in our actual daily lives it was so fucking good so good I have not stopped thinking about it and talking about it and I can't know if you guys want to listen to it as well so without further ado we we'll shut the fuck up and we can crack on enjoy the interview prepare to have your minds blown yes

alice hi and welcome to the podcast we really appreciate you being here with us today and we are excited to talk to you about your new book which i have on hand at the moment so the title of your book is on our best behavior the price women pay to be good so this pressure on women to be good and to act good and to behave good is something that M&I touch on a lot in this podcast, but we're excited to really explore it with you, you know, how we as women are culturally programmed and yeah, we're excited to dive deep into this subject. It's actually still fairly new ground for a lot of women, right? And I imagine a lot of people, a lot of women listening to this podcast as well, it's going to be new territory for them. So let's start with the title because I'm interested.

That's what caught my eye when your agent reached out to us is the title. Can you explain it on our best behavior, the price women pay to be good? Can you explain this title for us? Yeah. So I think that everything that I write about is something, there's a lot of personal memoir, but it's all so universal. That's been the reception so far to the book, is women feeling like, oh, my God, you're giving a name to the voices that I thought were only in my head.

and I started the book because as a high achieving person, perfectionist, I hit a wall when I was about 40, maybe 39, where I felt like I'd spent my whole life trying to achieve and be quote unquote good enough, thin enough, smart enough, successful enough, a good enough mother, et cetera, on and on. And I felt completely hounded and chased by these voices, these internal critical voices. And I had sort of an aha moment after a therapy session, as one does. And where I realized that these voices weren't mine, they weren't certainly weren't coming from my husband. They weren't coming from my parents. They were cultural. These cultural forces that were acting on me um and sort of beating me up honestly this this just making me feel

like i was going to die um and i started to think about this idea of goodness and women this good girl mentality how we're sort of programmed for obedience and compliance and niceness and where that starts and where it comes from. And I could recognize it in sort of different parts of culture. So I'm a big reader. I read a lot. And so it's like I've read books about women in their bodies and I've read books about women and their anger. And I could sense some sort of system of goodness, some way that it's passed down to us.

and I was trying to just find it. What does it look like? Because it's outside of us. It's not in us. And I arrived at essentially a checklist that I then sort of had a, I looked at and startled because I realized that it actually aligns with the seven deadly sins. And I'm not a religious person.

I wasn't raised within a religious household. But, and I'll remind everyone of what they are, sloth, pride, envy, greed, gluttony, lust, anger. And I had sort of this like chilling sensation on my spine as I looked at this list and realized, oh my God, these are the cultural values of goodness that are passed down to women and circumscribe our lives. These aren't religious edicts. And then I actually, when I started to research the book and sort of getting into it. I was like, oh, these are even Bible fanfic. They weren't in the Bible. They came out of the Egyptian desert. Um, so, uh, that's where I sort of started was,

oh my God, this is a system of oppression. Ultimately, this is the moral arm of patriarchy, which is such a like, also one of those words that's like a boogeyman, you know, where I'm like, I don't even know what that means. Um, and, And so I also needed to understand patriarchy as a system with the morality, the moralizing around goodness as one of its arms and how it continues to drive us, sort of like a marionette, even though it's hard to figure out sort of who is driving it. It's so baked into who we are that it's hard to find. It's hard to point a finger anywhere, really.

it's so interesting listening about the seven deadly sins because I'm not religious either I did not grow up in a religious household I know I've actually married somebody very religious I feel like I'm learning late but I I always thought about the seven deadly sins in the context of Pandora's box and that was the only and I guess that that's mythology isn't it and it's actually as you were speaking there I just had this like moment where I was like, oh my God, like, if I imagine any of those, I know so many prideful men, greedy men, lustful men. And they're kind of, that's like, that's kind of what it epitomizes, like, being a man,

having all of these things. This all happened while you were speaking. It's like, but it was Pandora's, like, Pandora's shame, like Pandora's badness. It was these, it does feel like these sins are a woman's sins, much more. And I know the Bible teaches, like, men not to come. cover their neighbor's shit or whatever. But like, I know, you know, it does teach morality in that context. But it is interesting when you think of sin in the Bible and in mythology here with Pandora.

It's all women. It's Eve that sinned. It's Pandora's box. There's a complete desecration of the feminine. And I don't know how much you want to get into the history. We can certainly go there. But it's interesting, like even the sort of edict to not covet your neighbor's house, donkey, or wife. So women also present as property.

Tokyo wife. Yeah, something like that. Again, I'm not a Bible scholar, but, but yes, this stuff, and we can sort of, this is the thing, we can say, oh, I don't believe in any of that. You know, I don't subscribe to any of that. But this is what I think we're starting to understand more about culture in the last, you know, decade, right? There are systems of oppression that run our lives that are baked in from the beginning and that are still present. We understand this with systemic racism. You don't have to be racist in order for systemic racism to impact your life positively and negatively. And similarly for women, this is sort of an ancient, toxic story about who we are that's in all of our literature. It shows up in all the fairy tales

too. I mean, Snow White is a story in many ways. It's a parable about the seven deadly sins. They're all present. That's also obviously a parable about women and envy and pride. Once you start seeing, I seeing it, you're like, holy shit, this is everywhere. And this is in all the books I grew up when, this is, but because it's been so invisible to us, it's kind of a funny book because in some ways it's so obvious and yet at the same time completely invisible. And then when you start pulling on it, you start seeing it everywhere. The way women are conditioned around smallness and morality around what they're

eating and have they been good or bad. Certainly with sexuality and sexual appetite and good Women, you know, are self-preserving and modest, et cetera. And as you said, these things do not, do not corral the lives of men at all. Men are programmed to pursue power. Women are programmed to pursue goodness. There's nothing worse than being called a bad woman. And there's nothing worse than being considered a weak man in our culture, as it is today. For you, which, having explored all of these deadly sins, which one do you think is the most damaging to women and to us as a community?

Which do you think is that, yeah, it is the most toxic? So I think that some are more toxic on a personal level, like glutney and sloth, or at a community level. The one that I think we have to collectively address is envy and then how it crashes into, pride because when I think about here's like amazing research about women which won't surprise you and it's why understandably I have two boys I'm a mom to two boys why everyone is concerned about boys and men both in terms of deaths of despair and suicidal ideation as well as the fact that women are just crushing men at school but we have been for a century okay It's not a new thing.

You know, and I write about this anthropologist, Ashley Montague, who sort of redefined, we always hear about hunter-gatherers. And he's like, it's really gather hunters because most people forage for vast majority of their food, men and women, et cetera. There's like a whole telling about our prehistory that's like such a story made by men that's a whole other podcast probably. But anyway, Ashley Montague wrote this book in the 50s. he wrote a, he wrote a story that, I guess, went viral if you could, in the 1950s called

the natural superiority of women. And it's about how we're biologically more durable, we live longer, we outperform boys on most intelligence tests, we're much better with language, et cetera. So this is, these are just the realities. Then you sort of look at where we are in the world. And it's like, what's happening? Why is there this gap, particularly because, you know, I love men. I'm married to like a wonderful feminist man.

I've had incredible male bosses who have been some of the kindest men that I've encountered. Obviously, there's rampant misogyny. There are people like Harvey Weinstein. There's a lot of pernicious men. I'm not suggesting that they're not. But it's not like you can sort of look around and be like, it's you and it's you and like you're keeping me down. You know, I think that's part of the sort of cognitive dissonance that we're all experiencing. And you look at the social science research and women are as hard on other women as men, if not harder.

Okay. And there are so many reasons for this. I'd throw greed and sort of these ideas of scarcity in this pile too with envy and pride. But I think that what's happened is that so envy is the gateway to the other sins. and I was speaking to the psychotherapist, Lori Gottlie, years ago, and she said something that just sort of became the beginning of this book, too, which was envy. I always tell my clients to pay attention to their envy because it shows them what they want. And I, that just, like, sat in my mind. And I asked her about it. I asked her if it was gendered and she said she didn't

have data, but probably because women are much more uncomfortable about feelings that we perceive as shameful or bad. We're much more suppressive and repressive. And so what I believe is that because women are conditioned to believe that they should subjugate all of their wants to other people's needs, anything left over, it's like fine, but make sure everyone else's needs are covered. We don't have great models for whatever. it looks like to go after what you want. And so we don't, we don't have a lot of experience exploring that. And we don't have a lot of experience celebrating that and talking about it with each other. And so when I hear women on women sort of what we would perceive in our culture as sort of this

like terrible idea of like women being hard on other women, I think that it comes from undiagnosed envy of I would never allow myself to do that. Who does she think she is? I don't like her. Like whatever she is doing is pushing on a dream that you have for yourself. And I think if anyone is listening and they start actually doing this process with themselves, why does that mama drop off drive me crazy? Why do I find this woman in the public eye so annoying? You'll find that different people bother different people. It's, Not there are, and I want to sort of caveat here. There are some women in the states at least on the public stage who are pushing forward hateful legislation who are like really, I don't like them and I don't envy them.

Okay. I don't like what they're doing and I don't. There's nothing in them that I want for myself. But on sort of the more personal level and the cultural level, I think that the women who bother us in sort of that like I don't. know I just don't like her, she rubs me the wrong way, are full of information. And so instead of projecting, it's like they make you feel uncomfortable. So you take that bad feeling and you project it onto them. Instead, allowing it to sort of come up and to say, oh, I'm like envious of the fact that she is so forthright and is so clear in the way that she speaks. Oh, I'm envious that

she has such a huge career and uh you know or whatever it is everyone's going to have their own list that's what's also really beautiful um so i think that collectively we have to start having these conversations with each other and just practicing and what you'll notice is it comes up you're like oh that doesn't feel so bad what feels worse is the projection of it the shaming of someone else that doesn't feel good why do you think we don't admit to feeling envious is it that we feel a sense of shame that we're is it that we feel embarrassed that we haven't got what they've got or do you think it's that we feel embarrassed for feeling jealous and we don't want to admit to that i think it's more the latter i think it's completely unconscious i don't think that we're like

i feel envious therefore i'm going to suppress it i think that we just it comes up We don't recognize what it is. We just recognize it as irritation and discomfort. And then we are so programmed to not feel bad. It's like we have to get this badness out of us, right? And so we just project it. Because we're actually, we're not just harming other women when we're projecting and when we're hard on them because they are showing us something that we

perceive we don't have or we want to have. But we're actually doing a disservice to ourselves as well, right? because we're not exploring the part of us that is lacking, that is saying, like, I want something else, I need something else. But what I do find so interesting is that, like, of those, of all those sins, like, to me, envy is the most shameful. I don't know about you, M, if that feels true to you as well. But envy, like, it feels painful to admit to being envious, particularly of other women.

It's so strange. It's, yeah. I actually said this to my friend this morning because I mean this couldn't have come at a better time for me like this whole interview because I'm feeling very like I'm currently having to assert myself in a business capacity which is challenging every ounce of my people pleasing existence I'm like this is awful like it's so bad anyways this has come at a really good time but I literally this morning was talking to my friend and I've had a lot of coaching for context like I've really done a lot of work on like my thoughts and what feelings my thoughts evoke and I was talking to my friend this morning because I've just had a baby you just saw her and I went back to work really soon and I don't regret it and I've made my decision and I'm and I'm here but my friend had a bit at the same time and I was saying to my other friend this morning I was like I'm so jealous like I'm so jealous of her right now and then I was sitting there and I know it's the most pointless emotion and it's the most stupid emotion

because because of all these different reasons but I just can't help it and then it felt really good to it and then I really sat with it and I just I went to this whole thing and I was like no actually I don't think I am anymore but it was like it was one of the first times in my adult life I remember saying out loud like I'm jealous and it's like it's eating me up because when you then then peel all that back I'm it's my fault it's not my fault but I'm I got me here it's got nothing to do with my friend that's doing something different like I it's my decision to let me hear but it just felt really nice to say it out loud and then I actually realized I wasn't that jealous and I really sat with it because it's the grass is greener and then is it really

green and I know but anyway I digress I just it was just you're right out like it just feels good to say it and then you can process it it's like there you can look at it you can be like okay do I want that more than I want this I don't know I wish I could have both that's it you want both I wanted both I that's I was sitting there and I was like I don't I want what she has and I want what I have I want both things and then it's like and then it's another sin because then I was like greedy I'm greedy I want it all Oh. And if I was one thing I know for sure is that women can't have it all. I can't work 100% effectively and be a mom 100% effectively at the same time. Well, maybe I can. I don't know. But it feels like I can't. Now you've gotten into the chapter on Sloth, which is about too, this idea that and this is what I see a lot of moms. I do this myself, which is that's the chapter that's probably the most about parenting. But I think anyone can relate to this idea. as women that will never do enough in any sphere of our life, right?

There's always more to be done. And so what I see happening too with a lot of women. And again, we sort of, it's also cultural. So we sort of do this unintentionally to each other. But women who work outside of the house, then out of grief and guilt, feel like they need to match that level of exertion and output at home. rather than saying okay here's my pie right now this gets more this gets a little less sorry kids

like i'll be more present next month it's this like oh i did this extra project and i i spent all day saturday um working therefore i need to spend all day sunday in like a hand-on parenting frenzy right like this need for balance that we sort of proclaim the way that it shows up in our lives is a ratcheting up of energy and effort. So there's this like balance, counterbalance and it just goes up and up in a way that becomes quite staggering. And again, it's so driven by I just saw, I'm assuming your partner carrying your baby. So that's great. But what happens to a lot of women, too, is that we get, we're a program with this idea of like, what a good mother looks like.

And so then we sort of bar anyone from interfering with our pursuit of that goal, not recognizing like those are tradeoffs, right? So for example, I do this all the time where no one is telling me, like for launch week, I live in Los Angeles, so it's a six hour flight. I went the week before for an event. I flew home at 10.30 at night. So I landed at 2.30 in the morning so I could go to one of my kids' parent teacher conferences in person, even though I could have definitely shown up on Zoom. And no one would have judged me. And then I was home for that day, half of the next day. And then I flew back to New York. Because of my own anxiety about my mothering, nobody, my husband was like, this is insane. What are you doing? Like the teachers weren't demanding that I show up in person. this was all me.

But that's how this stuff, this is how this runs us, if that makes sense. It's like, it's not an exterior edict. It's not someone saying, if you loved your son, you would,

you know, fly home and then fly back. Why do you think women, like if we get down to the absolute core of it, like why do women feel those pressures that men typically generally wouldn't feel that pressure? that you felt to, you know, flight in, out back again

just to get everything done, you know, where does it, where does it come from, do you think? Because I think I read that you, you know, your parents were very liberal and feminist and your partner's feminist. Yeah, you feel this, you know. So where does it, where does it, where does it come from? Honestly, it's, it's baked into everything.

It starts at the beginning of patriarchy, which isn't that old compared to how old we are as human. And it started with the subjugation. Patriarchy was really built on the backs of the subjugation of women and children. And this is, I mean, it's kind of far away, but it's like 8,000 years, but we've been around for a really long time. And before that, we lived in these affiliative partnership style ways. There was no, there was no subjugation.

Like we did life together. There was, you know, our prehistory is fascinating. And there are people who are far more versed on it than I am. But women, as we sort of were brought under control, we became property. This is how people built wealth, built families. and this, the moralizing part of it, originally sort of an early patriarchy, it was just Hammurabi's code. It was an eye for an eye. It was if a woman cheats on her husband, let her be like stone to death and drowned. If a man cheats on his wife, let him be pay a fine. It's just

from the beginning, this like incredible misogyny built into the legal code. And certainly it's become more equitable even in our lifetimes. But there is this adjacency to power that women have. And we, I think, live in constant fear of being cast out, excluded. And again, like, I think about sort of even in the last five, ten years, the worst thing that you can say about a woman is reputational damage. It's like she's bad. She's a bad person. She's a bad person. She's a bad. mother she's a bitch whatever it is she's an ambitious aggressive aggressive whore you know whereas men it's like they have to literally i mean they can assault someone and still be in power we we love them for it yeah it's pretty insane like

what a man has to do to be cast out whereas all you have to do about a woman you know a man can commit horrible egregious crimes and we're still willing to sort of take them back and then you watch women sort of exiting stage right this is the chapter on pride which is about what we do to women who dare to be seen and it's about that's the chapter where I write about famous women and we can say sort of like watching you know there's a there's a playbook for women in our culture where we sort of celebrate them on the upswing. And then they hit a certain point in culture where we just viciously tear them down

and celebrate their demise. And then maybe we're sort of like, we kind of want them to have a comeback. And then we maybe feel bad if they die, you know, like Amy Winehouse or Billie Holiday or Princess Diana. But we are ruthless, men and women, in terms of hounding women who dare to be seen, who dare to use them.

gifts in the world. Is it because it's easier? Like, I, and I don't want to go into it, but I do find it fascinating. A man in my life did something bad before Christmas and at the end of last year did something that, did something publicly, reputationally bad. And I was astounded. It had nothing to do with me, nothing to do with me. And I was so shocked by the, you know, the huge like bigger than I could ever have imagined a wave of shit that came my way from people angry with me for allowing him to do it or say it or not fuck knows why you know they just like and I felt at the time it was this first time when I realized I was like is it because or I questioned is it because we're too scared to go for men

Is it because it's, and a lot of these comments, most of these comments came from women telling me that I had to make him do better. And I was like, why are you holding me to a standard higher than you're holding him? And I wonder if you know, if there is any research or any speculative thought on, is it the, on why we do this to women? Is it because they're more accessible to us? Is it because it's easier for us to punish other women or call on them to do things? Like, why do we feel that we can do this to women in a way that we can't do it to men? No, it's a great question. And I think that there's sort of two things at play.

So I think on a cultural, so yes, I think that women are excellent punching bags. Misogyny is still completely acceptable. We don't really fear reprisal from women, in part because women are like too, to quote unquote good to really to really react if that makes sense but i think that there's a bigger cultural note that you hit and i write about this in lust which is this idea that men and boys are just not really capable of being responsible for themselves or their actions and it is the job of girls and women to be babysitters to their rapacious male desire so we can't possibly hold them accountable for what they do because they're boys and they're men and they're not capable of

controlling themselves. And so we put this, there's this insistence that girls, girls should really be responsible for anything that a boy does, anything, certainly anything that he does to her. And we see this throughout, you know, in the U.S. at least, it's like, I think of a thousand sexual assaults that are reported only 25 ever go to trial because there's just no way to hold these boys and men responsible and the reputational harm to the woman, this like insistence that she put herself into the situation. What was she wearing? Had she been drinking? How many sexual partners has she had? Do we believe her? Even though to actually admit that something a sexual transgression has happened to you is the most humiliating, excruciating thing to have

to do, we insist that these women are just lying. And then we put on them, too, that they're responsible for ruining this man's life. We should be able to get over this, but like he won't get over the reputational harm or having to go to prison. So, like, you should really take that into account before you. And why does that come up so much? Like, that still blows my mind now. And I hear it almost more from women. It drives me mad.

There was something, I saw a conversation the other day, and someone said, she, oh, he's been accused of sexual assault. And you can, it's like an unspoken thing. You can hear it now. Maybe older women who are thinking, she's lying. like it feels so it feels so there like so despite the fact that all the statistics show that that's not the case why is that so easy for us to to to perpetuate that because they're cultural standard so to go against it to go against any of this and demand and require better requires a rewiring but I think first we have to

see it. And I don't, I don't think that we've been particularly conscious of this or conscious of it as a system of misogyny. And I think that there are, it's just, it's just runs us, if that makes sense. It's not, it's just, it's imperceptible to how we move throughout the world. And so part of it, and my hope with the book is that women can say, oh, my God, I recognize these all as isolated events. I've never thought of this as a situation. system. And now I can start to talk about this with my friends, sisters, daughters, mothers, and we can consciously push against it because that's what that's what's amazing about women. It's like we are boxers training at high altitude. Like watch out when we actually

sort of can get behind each other and start to rail. against these systems of scarcity that would have us believe that really only one woman is ever going to be on the executive team and we'll never have a female president in the United States, for example, like all of this scarcity that we see in our companies, in our government, in our culture, I think as soon as we start consciously getting behind each other, recognizing our envy, recognizing that instinct to sort of police and school and scold other women and stop it. then I think the world will start to rapidly change in a way that I think will be quite relieving to men. The book isn't sort of a takedown of men. I'm worried about men. I think patriarchy is terrible for men. I think it's hard to see that in our culture that sort of prioritizes and venerates power and money, et cetera. I get that those are incredibly intoxicating for our culture. Like, I wouldn't want to be an oppressive, dominant person. I think that the sort of psychic toll of this is devastating. And so, I don't know, I think, I think part of it

is also saying, actually, boys and men, you are completely capable. There are a lot of boys and men who don't rape women, you are completely capable of controlling your impulses and your appetites. Women would know, we've been doing it for millennia. And I don't know, but I feel for you because the standard, and this is the other thing that drives me crazy is I'm sure you heard this too when people were sort of coming after you for the actions of a man. It's this like, I expect more from you. I'm hard on women because I expect more from women. I'm disappointed. I love you. I loved you, but like I can't love you anymore. And it's like, Jesus Christ, I didn't ask you to fucking love me. But also, this is mad that it's like you can love me in one dimension. You can

only love me in this context. And then the second I put a foot wrong, and like, Al, you and I have talked about this so much, like doing the job that we do. it's like we could spend 10 years doing work that we perceive to be really good and work that we that we're really proud of and you take one foot wrong and it's like see ya bye it's mad and people revel in it yeah and if you don't mind jumping back to what we were talking about before with the phenomenon that we all witness of women being built up to then being to then be torn down and We all seem to really take this collective pleasure in, you know, this woman's demise. Do you think that, do you think the first part of that is intentional, the buildup, in order to tear down?

Or do you think it's just, or do you think it's just that there is nothing, it's all fairly innocuous until we perceive this woman to be higher than us? does envy kick in and this woman has something then that we we want we don't have and that's where the tearing down part comes in how do you sort of how do you see all of that I don't think it's premeditated and I don't think it's conscious I think it's pride then it it hits that sort of like who does she think she is she's too big for her pritches it it hits our envy it we like we sort of like this idea of it hits our scarcity triggers of like if she has that I can't possibly have that too and then I think that there's sort of a certain I mean this might be too too far out too but when we think about I think we're sort of at the very beginning of

understanding intergenerational trauma right and sort of epigenetics of it and the way that we pass these things on we're certainly having a massive reckoning in the United States right, about racism and in the not too distant past. I know Germany is going to be in it and processing the Holocaust for centuries, probably, although they've done some good work there. But it wasn't that long ago that there was a gender side, primarily across Europe. So the witch craze went on for two centuries after the Inquisition. In the States, we know about sort of the Salem Witch Trials, and I think it was 25 or 30 people, primarily women, who were killed.

But in Europe, it was, they don't quite know, they're still trying to piece it together. About 80,000 to 100,000 primarily women were hunted, burned at the stake. And this was a secular activity. They followed the playbook of the Inquisition, but this was run by. government, not the church. And the primary targets were women and primarily older women, Crohn's, women who had maybe were widows, had property that they would then repossess. And other targets were sort of midwives, healers, sort of like an entire, in some ways, Like you could almost call it like an indigenous culture of wisdom, traditions and healing traditions.

And the way that they, they were horrific. And women were forced to turn on each other, turn in their daughters, turn in their mothers, in an act of self-preservation. So I also feel like when we see stuff like this, sort of this frenzied mob, it's kicking up. I think we have a lot of unprocessed trauma. There's no other, like it is unfathomable. to think about a culture turning on its own and committing gender side for 200 years.

It's actually just like wild when you think about it. To be a woman is to be suspect. Even the word gossip, the etymology of gossip is actually godparent because one of the things that was sort of, that people were suspicious, became suspicious, suspicious of was women who would gather together and talk. And so I think that there's also some of that, some residual, I don't know.

Like I see stuff like that too and it feels like, why? This doesn't feel actually like who we are. It's like something that takes us over. But it's a warning. What we do to women and people can feel shot in Freud. they can feel which is harm plus joy they can have sort of that like delicious feeling of like she got what she deserved and she's back in her place like sort of just below me but this is what we do to women and it affects all of us it doesn't just affect Amy Winehouse it affects every girl

and every woman who is watching um and same with you know in the u.s sort of the widespread cancellation of women, a lot of women in media, female founders of companies, just like the joy that people had and destroying them. And the way, what I would also say, too, about women is that because of this fear of badness, a lot of us lack durability for that sort of criticism. So it's like you say a woman is, you know, a bad manager was toxic in some way. And I just watched them all, just like exit stage left, never to be seen again. There was no sort of like a man, so many men endured. And the implications for them were so much worse.

And it was sort of this, I don't care. I'll just keep going. That's really interesting. Like that's just really click something in me. Do you think that with that in mind, we genuinely aren't as good at taking, criticism as men? No, I don't think we're as good.

I think it is so much more damaging to women, that reputational damage. It is like devastating, devastating. Whereas men, you know, I write about the research of this woman, Carol Gilligan, who therapists who did a lot of pioneering research and the development of moral codes of women, of girls and boys. She wrote this book called In a Different Voice. And men, boys, they want to be in the world and girls want to be of service to the world. And then she has this incredible sentence about how what she and went in studying boys and girls in their formation,

what happens is that the word don't comes to be inserted into vocabulary for boys and girls. And for boys, it becomes, I don't care. And for girls, it becomes, I don't know. And to me, that's our culture. Women divorce from everything that they do know. And boys divorce from their, like, caring, sweet, loving hearts. And that's sort of the armor that we put on as we go out into the world. And so I think boys can just, it's like, I don't care.

And that is completely acceptable for boys and men in a way that is just like, what from a woman? So the system is harming everyone. Yes, all of us. Baby boys, young boys, the research suggests that they are more attached, more feeling, more sensitive than girls. And yet we've had this, we've grown up in a culture that insists that like you have to, send boys, you have to turn them into men. And the process of turning boys into men is a dehumanizing, a severing them from emotions. Actually, so originally, so the sins weren't in the Bible. They came out of the Egyptian desert at the same time that the New Testament was being canonized.

So it's about roughly the same date. And they were originally eight thoughts. And the eight with sadness. And then they sort of traveled around the desert as a set. And then in 590, Pope Gregory I turned them into the cardinal vices and assigned them all to Mary Magdalene. And that's when he turned her into a penitent prostitute. And she wore that reputation until 2016. But the eighth, sadness was dropped from the list.

And I wrote about it. I included it in the book because I'm convinced that sadness is what, which which he wrote about, Evagoras Ponticus wrote about as having a feminine soul, that that's what's lodged. A fear of sadness is what's lodged in the minds of men. And that the primary symptom of cutting boys and men off from their feelings is toxic masculinity.

And that wounded boys become wounding men. And you look at our culture and you look at who is causing damage, who in the States at least, who's shooting children. and it's men it's wounded boys and wounded men and so I think women have learned how to survive and endure

in patriarchy in a way that's quite impressive but I think it has devastated boys and men yeah we do hear that a lot isn't it my mom says it all the time she's got two girls and a boy

and she says you know she worries like she's like it is and it's kind of become a joke and everyone's like it is so hard to be a man in this day and age and obviously like

that does cause like young women it for a long time it really caused me to Brussels because I'd be like I think it came up a lot like there was a big case here a couple of years ago where a woman were missing

and she was turned out a police officer serving metropolitan police officer had murdered her and it caused this huge like massive um conversation here about women's safety and i think like we have that conversation a lot and it made a lot of us women bristle i think because it's like but but men are safe like men are hurting us and then there was and it became this really like gender war because it became with men on one side thing like it's not all men it's not all men it's not all police officers it's whatever and it didn't help that the met were saying oh well it's just a couple of bad apples and we're just like it's not fucking bad apples it's a bad barrel like

it's just it's a shit show the whole thing's a shit show so it always it always jars i think for a lot of women who are suffering to hear oh it's really hard to be a man but when you hear it like that and actually when i think about the men that i know it does break my heart that they can't, they're not allowed to have emotion in the way that women are. And something I find quite, like, really sad, is I don't know, and I don't know, I'm really hoping you're going to have an answer. Like, what happens there? Is this a woman, is this women's responsibility to, like, have we got to dismantle the patriarchy as part of our feminism to enable men to live freer? Or is there going to go?

to be something that's going to enable men to access their emotions like culturally what's going to happen well this is what I think is happening um so I as mentioned you know that with the creation and patriarchy there was a desecration of the feminine and most acutely female but one of the themes of the book is that there are we each have masculine and feminine energy and And balanced femininity. And we all know women who behave in toxicly masculine ways, right? So the balanced feminine is nurturance, creativity, and care. The balanced masculine is order, structure, truth.

We each have those energies regardless of gender. They have nothing to do with gender. I'm sure both of you guys are in your masculine a lot. I think a lot of women will be like, oh, yeah, a thousand percent you are directing your scheduling you're figuring out you're running a team whatever it is you're running a business and then you also know how to be in your feminine receiving etc i think that men have been i think women are are quite comfortable in both worlds i think i'm more comfortable in my masculine um and this is different again different from gender

different from sexuality. And I think we're starting to understand this with the contemporary trans movement. I think it still seems like a little strange to some people. But men in this, in the desecration of the feminine and the way that they've been cut off from their feelings and their nurturance and care are desperate for balance as well. And so part of the argument of the book is to let the feminine, the feminine must come up. up in men. We must find balance in each of us and in the world. And that your ability to run a company has nothing to do with like your genitalia. It has everything to do with sort of your qualities of balance masculinity and balance femininity. You have to be able to do both.

And so, and I think as we look towards the future, I include this chart from these, this young Ian Marion Woodman and Eleanor Dixon and they wrote made this chart 40 years ago but it talks about how sort of early prehistory was matriarchal we're currently in a patriarchal period and the future is androgynous and I think that that's I think as men can let their feminine come up and women feel completely comfortable in both worlds will start to sort of rebalance because the answer is like people will say, oh, it's, you know, time for a matriarchy. It's like, I don't think we want a dominant, oppressive world, even if it's led by women. We want balance, partnership, affiliation. I think it's essential for humans to

experience both, ideally in the same day and in the same hour. We'd love to wrap up with for the women listening who have abided by all of these unwritten rules that are like you said baked into our culture and our society and tried their hardest all their lives to be good and who I imagine those women who are possibly grappling with a bit of cognitive distance right now as I am a little bit um firstly what is on the other side for them and secondly what are some actionable steps to get to the other side and try and shed this. this, you know, this goodness that we've been so conditioned to be. Well, I think it's personal work and it's also collective work.

And I'm so glad you brought that up earlier because part of it is to let this all of our appetites, desires, wanting human instincts come up and recognize that we've sort of treat ourselves like, you know, lunatics in an asylum. We're so scared of like, what will happen if I eat whatever I want? What will happen if I express my anger? You know, we have this sort of, the way that we treat ourselves is like we're captives, you know, one morsel away from like self-destruction. So I think part of it is like, oh, wow, I let my envy come up. I processed it in a safe place and it didn't kill me.

If anything, I feel better. I actually can go and be supportive of my friend without bringing all of my judgment to bear on my self-judgment to bear on her, et cetera. And then I think that what's been really exciting watching the book come into the world is that I lived with it by myself with my editor for years, right? And now that women are reading it and talking about it, it's been amazing to watch how quickly we can move this stuff and diagnose it together. And particularly when you're sort of like,

I'm saying these things that feel so shameful and I'm being held by other women who are like, I feel the same way. I thought I was the only one. You know, all of that cultural conversation, I have watched shit really start to liberate people where they're like, oh, I can, I can actually let this come up without suppressing it and repressing it in shadow and it doesn't hurt and it doesn't hurt anyone. If anything, I just feel so much more comfortable, so much more balanced. Because it's not a book that's like, let's go be greedy and lustful.

You know, people who haven't read it on Instagram are like, the world doesn't need more greed. I'm like, yeah, no shit. I'm not suggesting that like we continue this like, racking up ecological credit card debt, but women need more money. We need enough. Women are excellent with money. We're more philanthropic. We're better stewards of money. So it doesn't work to sort of say like money is base and gross.

Let's just leave it to Jeff Bezos. But that's also really annoying feedback because it's like the world doesn't need to be more greedy. It's like, oh, please. Like there are men on their private jets and private yachts all over the fucking place. Like, no one cares. Like, they're allowed to be greedy. that person is saying is they don't want more greedy women. I mean, look at Jeff Bezos and his wife,

or his ex-wife. She's like given away an indescribable amount of money and to incredibly worthy organizations. It's amazing. Women need more money. Women need more money. It also feels like this is going to be really good for like, I don't know, for me personally listening to you talk, it's like I, and I definitely just had a kid, but the guilt I feel all the time for, I don't know, prioritizing rest, like, is, I mean, I don't prioritize rest because the guilt is too much. But I, like, it feels so, if listening to you speak about this work, it's like, the idea that you can free women of guilt is, or that we can free ourselves and we can free each other of guilt. It's like, sounds so exciting. Yes. I mean,

talk about a reclaiming of so much of our vital energy. that we can actually use with the people we love and with ourselves and out in the world. Amazing. Thank you so much. This has been fascinating, so fascinating to hear you talk. And we encourage everyone to get your book. We're going to put the link in the show notes. And thank you. Thank you so much, Elise, for joining us. And yeah, that was brilliant. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network. Thanks.