Should I Delete That? - The Prison Doctor: meet Amanda Brown

Episode Date: November 20, 2023

This week on the podcast, the girls are joined by Dr Amanda Brown. Twenty years ago, Amanda was content working as a GP at a quiet, suburban family practice, with many patients she'd seen throughout their entire lives. One day, after a shock meeting, she decided to leave the practice with no idea what was coming next. Out of the blue, she was asked if she wanted to take a shift at a prison. Despite never even thinking doctors worked in prisons, Amanda went on to have the most fulfilling years in her career as a prison doctor. She worked in both men's and women's prisons and talks us through their differences. She also shares why women are being failed in the prison system and how she only ever once had to ring the panic button.You can purchase Amanda's books The Prison Doctor, Women Inside and The Final Sentence hereFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So when I was asked to work with the drug users on the wing on a regular basis to help them once they'd settled into prison, I thought, well, no, thank you. People are going to be so nasty to deal with, but not at all once they'd settled down. These were the women I got to know and love over seven odd years and miss them. Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Should I Delete That? I'm Em Clarkson. And I'm Alex Light. How you doing?

don't think you're doing very well. Not doing well at all out. I've got a bad bad to start us with a really bad bad. And it's mostly my fault, but I don't want to dwell on that, okay? Okay. We're not going to get bogged down with whose fault it is. No, no responsibility. My car got broken into last night.

They have ransacked it, and they've stolen Arlo's buggy bag and her changing mat. Isn't that just, like, senseless criminals? Wait, that's like, I mean, they're weird things to steal. both very non-high-value items, surely. They left the artipote baby carrier, which can I just say is like £300. It was the most, when I bought that,

that was the one thing. I was like, I can't justify it. I mean, I did, obviously. And I'm like, that's so happy that I own it. But that is such, the baby carrier is so expensive. They didn't steal that. But they did steal, they did steal the baby bag. Like they took it off the buggy.

They didn't steal the buggy, which again is so expensive because bogies are. They didn't steal the buggy. They just took the baby bag, which means they've got, like, her cowpull and, like, her little nappy rash cream and, like, her clothes. Like, her little spare set of clothes

for in case she pews herself. I am so confused. Why would they not take the pram? I know, I know, I know. I know. The pram is an expensive, big ticket item. I'm so confused.

I'd also rather they'd just take in the pram. I don't, I wouldn't, but, like, it just feels so much, like, dirtier that they just took, they literally stole from a baby. Do you know what I mean? And they've just taken her clothes and their little bag. And I've got that really trendy.

I'm going to have to re-buy it. Thank God it's Black Friday coming up. But that really trendy, you know, my buggy bags, that silver one. And I've got the matching change in there from Tiber and Marl, which is, I just love the brand. Because I'm going to have to re-buy them. It's just expensive. It's fine, but it's just like, it's just really annoying. And I feel, and I, the car, I've got photos out.

The car's been trashed. Like, they've gone through the glove compartment. Like, they've torn everything up, like, obviously looking for staff. gone through the bit in the middle, everything's just trashed. And I just feel really dirty. How's so weird. How's they get in?

Well, this is what we don't want to get bogged down in because theories are currently floating that I might not have locked the car last night. Okay, okay, okay. We'll swiftly move on from that one. We're not going to talk about that bit. It's kind of irrelevant at this point. So irrelevant.

So irrelevant. Yeah, I text my brother this morning. And I was like, I'm so upset. And he was like, oh, no, they smash the windows. Like, I was like, um. And they just open the door. I think it might just open the door, actually, yeah. It's very civilised.

Oh, it's so, we've been seeing for ages because Alex is such like a nosy fucking neighbour, as you well know. And he's been watching this guy go up and down the street testing to see if any of the cars were unlocked. He sees him all the time. So I feel like I ought to just follow that guy home one day. Just be like, hi, can I have my stuff back? And while you're at it, can you? you come and clean the car please because it's all fucked and it's all your fault oh my god okay well but i am glad that the the the i know windows smashed that's good because you don't you won't

want glass everywhere so that's a positive it is but i'm supposed to drive today i'm supposed to i'm supposed to go driving and i'm not going to drive and get the train i just feel like the car's been sullied do you know what i mean i need a couple of days yeah um yeah violated yeah yes yes yes i feel like i've been invaded anyway how are you rough rough i'm i'm all right i mean i don't I look kind of weird, don't I? I don't know. Everything's really puffy at the moment. That's late-stated pregnancy, sweetheart.

I'm really struggling. Like, my fingers look funny and my, yeah, I don't know. You look funny. Do you not think? No. But I know the feeling of feeling funny. Yeah, I keep looking in the mirror and being like, I just don't, I look really different. Yeah.

I don't know. Like, even my nose looks like it's great. Anyway, I'm fine. My good, bad and awkward are all in one. Okay, let's go. Good is we went for a little, uh, getaway last weekend. We had vouchers, Mr. and Mrs. Smith vouchers from our wedding two years ago that we've just

just haven't had chance to use properly. Anyway, so we went, we did a little weekend away for an anniversary, which was really nice. And I had a one and a half hour nap on Saturday. I know. I know. Shocking, right? Dave was, he said he was like throwing stuff at me and like shouting at me and I just

wouldn't wake up. I was just, I was an absolute goner. Um, that's my good. My bad is that we went out for dinner in the hotel restaurant that night. It was at the pig, so it's like dead posh. Yeah. Not, you know, it's like, it's just, it's fancy, isn't it? I've always wanted to go to the, um...

It's really nice. Yeah, love that for you. It's, it's fancy in like a rustic-y way. I don't know. It's very like, it's very like farmed table kind of way. I know exactly the vibe. I like it. Yeah.

Really, really nice. But they see it does, I mean, it's quite, it's very busy in there. I mean, they see it does at this little table. And I was sitting out facing the restaurant. Okay. Dave was facing the wall, which would have been my preference, had I known what was going to happen. Anyway, I had, just before dinner,

I'd come across this thread all about how you resent your dog when you have a baby and, like, different, like, people's different stories about how, like, one even got rid of the dog, one said she couldn't, she had no love for the dog anymore. Anyway, I read this just before dinner, and it was like, I went back, I feel like I went back hormonally, to when I was a teenager, you know when you're like due your period and you have no control over your emotions?

Yeah. You've got no control. You feel so out of control. It's like, it's completely irrational, but you can't control it. And I wept at dinner. I wept, I wept, I wept, I wept. And I was facing out in the restaurant and Dave was horrified. It looks like it's his fault. Yeah, he was like, please, Al, please. And I was like, Dave, I'm trying so much to stop it. It's like he's leaving you. Like, yeah, she's eight months pregnant and I'm out. out of here and get you cry and stop crying out actually stop crying stop crying everyone's okay stop crying because it wasn't just like oh like pat my eyes kind of cry it was like I was weeping like sobbing I was so so bad I went to twit twice should confiscate the

internet from you for a little bit I wish I hadn't come across that thread I really do and then I got I was sad and then I was angry I was like how can you resent the dog you can resent yourself but you can't resent the dog anyway I'm over that now I feel like I'm I'm past that at the time it felt very very real and this whole restaurant was like oh my god are you okay I was like I want to get out of here but the food's so good and I'm hungry

I'm very torn so yeah that was it's like your bad and you're awkward no that was my bad my awkward I went Dave put me in from massage I just want to hear these stories from Dave's perspective always I think we should have like a subsection of a podcast where we just hear these stories

from Dave's side he's just beaten down he's just sad he put me in for a massage which was very nice like a pre-pregnancy one so nice they gave me a pillow to like so you can lie down flat on your front and put your bump in heaven gorgeous really nice for the end of the massage they do a scrub and a moisturise on your bump and I don't know about you but I don't think anyone's ever touched my bum my tummy in like a tenderly way before.

Do you know what I mean? Like with the midwife, it's different. It's like they're going in with purpose and it's like it's a medical reason. It's not a stroke. And I suddenly, when she flipped me over on my front, I felt very vulnerable and very nervous. And when she did the first touch, I lurched, my whole body, like, lurched. Like I jumped out of myself. Like a cat touching water.

Literally, exactly. Exactly. And she was like, are you okay? I was like, oh, God, yeah, I'm fine. I'm sorry. I just, but every time and every time there was a break in her touching, not touching my belly, when she'd do it again, I'd go back to the lurch because it just felt too weird. I couldn't stop it.

It was like a reflex, horrible, poor woman. And I was just like, oh, can we just leave this bit, please? Can we just like call it a day? I've had a really nice time. Can I just go home now, please? Stop it. Well, I love that. What a weekend at the roller coaster.

Have you got any goods? Goods, awkwards. gotten awkward, I'm good, I've gotten awkward because I took all those soft play yesterday. We absolutely thrived. It's so fun. I've decided, you know this. I'm mostly not going to work on Thursdays anymore and I'm just going to hang out with my kid and I just have like full, like. Love this. Because our job's so like, oh yeah, I'll just reply. Most people's are in this day and age. It's a rat. I'll just reply. I'll just reply. Like, yeah, and you just end up, and you can end up sucked into jobs and then just on your phone and I just don't want to be on my phone all the time around her.

And I'm just really trying to like, whatever, set my boundaries. Yeah. So Thursdays are like, like, for the most part, just hanging out with my kid. And so yesterday we went to the coolest soft play of a bit of my life. I fucking love us. I know there are parents, I hate softball, I'm not I fucking love soft play. So I found this massive soft play yesterday. We had a hoot. Anyway, as we were leaving, I saw these stairs and I thought,

I hope I don't fall down these stairs. What a random thought. And I thought to myself. I hope I don't fall down then. And it was like I manifested it because I got to the bottom one and I rolled my ankle. I was holding Arlo as I fell down the stairs, craft us into a wall.

I actually think she was fine, but I went because I thought, like, I'd hurt her. So I drew a lot of attention to us because I went, and then she cried, but actually, and I was like, oh my God, did she hit her night? Like, what have I done and all that? And there were so many people at the cafe, all moms, all holding their kids.

And they were all really nice. And they were like, nothing happened to her she's crying because you panicked oh no so then I was like oh god I'm such a dork but then I don't have these internal thoughts like I say that externally so I was like standing at the bottom of the stairs I'm such a loser I'm such a talk and all these moms were like you're not a loser you're not a daughter whatever I'm talking nice to me oh my god it's so embarrassing I'm such a loser that is so embarrassing I know not a loser you're not a loser don't worry these things happen. I'm like, oh God.

Oh, God. So I can never go back to the amazing softbread that my daughter had the best. Actually, I'm going to have to go back. I'm going to have to just swallow my pride and go back. She's so amazing. And you know what the worst thing is? My ankle is so sore today. Oh, you're really hurt. I've really hurt. I've really hurt. I've got to run a 10K on Sunday. And I woke up this morning and I was like, oh, I can't even go down the stairs. It's really

sore. I know. I know. And I think I was so distracted by humiliation that I didn't even acknowledge that I'd hurt myself. Yeah. And I was so concerned that I'd hurt on. Anyway, she was fine. She was just embarrassed that I was her mother, Fairfax. I bet she was.

Yeah, she's like, oh, Morgan. I think she's too young to feel embarrassment, but maybe I actually... I don't think that's why she cried. This could have brought it in for her. I think that's why she started crying. I don't think she was in pain at all. I think she was literally just like,

oh, why's my mother the worst? What a loser! Can I have one of you instead? Help. Take me away. What's what? Oh, so I like, anyway. Mortify.

And then my good. It's just that we're going, it's my best friend's getting married and we're going to go and try and wedding dresses in a minute. That's why I've got to go. Fun! I know.

So exciting. We're going to go. Yeah, we're going now. And then also, double good because I'll guess this week. Woo! Oh my God, we fell in love with her. We fell in,

we pulled this episode forward. Like, we fought with the schedule because we were so excited about this episode. Yeah. Like, I listened, we talk all about it, but I listened to Amanda Brown's book,

Dr. Amanda Brown's book in 2019 when I was training for my first marathon and I was literally, obsessive. I was like, this is the coolest woman I've ever heard in my life. Loki thought about her most days since then. And then when we were talking about, like, guess we went on the podcast. And I was like, my Alex was like, dream big, dream big, who do you want?

I was like, oh, Dr. Amanda Brown. And bugle me, she said yes. And it was, wasn't it? Just like, we're just in love with her? We're in love with her. Oh my God. I love her. She's got them a kindest, nicest soul.

I know. I love her in my life. I know. Well, I know, I know. I know. we did have to let her go, which was sad. But she did give us an hour, and it was such a great hour. She was so amazing.

She reframed so much of our perceptions, I guess, on, like, prison and criminals. And I thought what she had to say about women in prison and the way that we're failing women, judicially, I suppose, and societally, was so important to hear, and we just loved her. So, enjoy the episode, guys. I hope you enjoy it as much as we did.

Hi, Amanda. Thank you so much for coming. I'm going to start by just being a bit of a fan girl. We sort of did this before the mics went on. But I listened to your book, The Prison Doctor, in 2019. Would that be about right? Yeah. And I honestly was so interested in it.

And your whole story, how you came to become a prison doctor in the first place. And then where you left the book, which was that you'd gone and started working in women's prisons. and your opinions and the facts that you had about women in the prison system, I had never considered any of it before. And I just thought the whole book was so enlightening. And I can't believe my luck that you said yes to come and talk to us today. So thank you so much for coming. So sweet.

Thank you. It's a real pleasure. I'm so excited. But I would love for anybody that hasn't read your book or who doesn't know about you yet, if you could explain what happened in the early 2000s that led to you leaving your GP practice and going to work in the presence, which is a huge gear change. Well, so 2004, the government changed the GP contract, and it was coming in on the 1st of April.

And on the 9th of March, my partners at the GP practice, we had a meeting and the new contract was bringing in targets and incentive-driven medicine and what they call coiff points, so quality outcome framework points, which meant if you did certain things, in a consultation and ticked it on the computer, money arrived and you hit your target, you get more money and there was a lot of money around if you played the game. And I just knew for 100% I would not be able to do that. After 20 or years of traditional family medicine,

I don't think I could change my style of medicine to hit targets and stuff. And in this particular meeting, one of the partners said that if I didn't pull my weight financially, they'd resent me. and that was like a knife going into my heart because I loved my job I felt proud of the practice that I'd sort of built up and I just absolutely knew that I wouldn't hit the targets

and that they would resent me and within literally the reply to that sentence was that I was leaving so I had no intention of leaving but I just stood up from that meeting and I walked out as if I just sort of killed myself and I was in shock because I thought what the heck have I done

but it broke my heart. So that was the end of me in general practice and I had no idea what I was going to be doing three weeks later. Which was? Which was? I mean, thank God I received a phone call that changed the course of my life from a doctor who was trying to recruit doctors to work in prisons and never even occurred to me that doctors worked in prisons.

So it was stupidly and never even thought about it. But I thought, well, you know, why not? Let's give it a go and what else am I going to do? And so I started working in a young offenders prison that same year. And it was the beginning of the most wonderful 19 years of my life. And that's the story of your book, really, is that you had left general medicine after having, after running family, family medicine. Yes. Kind of in the, in the countryside, really.

Yes. So going from that to going into a prison. And you told that so amazing. amazingly in the book, but like what was that like going from kind of, I guess, I imagine, Cushty in lots of ways, safe and comfortable job. Cushty, friendly, lovely, you know, we're all, the patients that I'd known for 20 or years, you know them when they're having their children, you know them when their parents are dying, you know them, all the traumas families go through, you're sort of part of their lives,

which was a huge privilege. So to go from that to a rather grim, well, very grim, austere sort of building in the middle of for Buckingham, Berkshire, the Hunter Coombe Prison. Yeah, it was, of course, a huge change, but it was actually quite exciting. You know, I think I was coming up for 50 then, and I thought, I've got a few years left in me. You may as well give it a go,

and I say it was the best thing I ever did. Yeah. Do you know what? It's so interesting that. You said about, you didn't think about doctors working in prisons. I've never thought about that. No, that's weird, isn't it? Yeah, really, really strange.

Is it a practical point of view, I'm just thinking, is it a normal like 9 to 5, Monday to Friday job? No. It depends on the prison and what there are consens. I mean, when I worked with a teenage boys, it was just a morning GP clinic. There was no on call. I wasn't very, very different from when I then worked in Wormwood Scrubs, where I worked for seven years. When I worked in Wormwood Scrubs, the shift was 9 a.m. till 10 p.m. But it depended on what shift, I signed up for. So there were other doctors working there. Some might do a GP clinic.

Some might be duty doctors. Some might just do an evening reception shift. So they're all different shifts that we could, you know, choose to do or whatever. But I generally in the scrubs, I used to do the 9am to 10 p.m. shift because it was quite a long journey. And I thought, well, while I'm there, I always clock up the hours rather than driving and out of London for a three-hour shift. So it was very variable. And as a as a GP, and when you started in the first prison, you were a, you were running like a GP clinic. So presumably people can come as they would not in prison with various ailments.

Sure. But when you went to the scrubs, the things kind of, the things that you're treating weren't just GP level anymore, really. Can you tell us about like that kind of shift? because that kind of feels more like trauma, A&E. It was. Drama. Yeah, for sure. So if I say, if I was doing a GP clinic,

that would be just general practice on a wing in Worm and Scrubs. But because I chose G.T. Doctor Shift, I was on call for the whole prison for any emergency, whether it was a medical emergency or violence or self-harm. I used to go around the segregation unit to see the men in the SEG every day and see the new prisons arriving. So it was very variable and at times, extremely dramatic and exciting and sometimes I'd stand watching things going on when

perhaps prison officers went in in riot gear to calm down a prisoner who'd gone completely wild and I'm sort of standing outside thinking I can't believe I'm here. It was just bizarre, it's sort of almost like a fly on my own wall. So, but yes, it was very, very variable. But lovely for that, you know, it was so exciting. Yeah. But sometimes when they call a code, Blue in prison. That's if somebody's, you know, potentially died, you know, so it was pretty

urgent. So any member of Stalf would rush to this Code Blue with this sickening dread of what we might find when we got there. Yeah, so it was one Code Blue I got to, and a young man had slit his throat, which perhaps you read about it in the book, you remember that one. I've never ever seen so much blood. I mean, he'd just... He'd just about clung on to life and survived, thank God. But it was, you know, stuff I'd never ever seen before. That was quite early, wasn't it? It was very early on.

Yeah. And how did you, did you think you'd make, did you not think like, oh my God, what am I doing here? No, I just thought, I'm not so pleased to be part of it, but it was, it was good to be part of something like that. And even better that this beautiful young man survived and then remembered me and thanked me. So that was wonderful. I mean, many, many weeks later when he was back in the scrubs. So that was really lovely. And he would have been young, right?

He was in the first prison. He was early 30s. He spoke no English, first time in prison, no idea. I mean, I knew nothing about him. And if his cellmate hadn't pressed the alarm bell, he definitely wouldn't have survived. If he'd been on his own in that cell. Such a huge gear change for you. Huge.

Right? Huge. and especially because the first prison you went in was the young offenders one, right? How old are they? Is that 15 to 18 year old boys? Then they move on to 18 to 21 year old and almost from there.

Okay. And I think they say 18 to 21 year olds probably the most difficult to deal with because of the testosterone and the state of, you know, the stage of life they're at. But the boys that I dealt with, they were fine. I mean, sometimes they try to wind me up. How did you take that?

And that's part of life, isn't it? You know, boys are going to try and wind some old woman up. But if they had any genitone urinary problems, they were meant to go to that clinic. And they referred to that, the Dick Doctor Clinic. But they still tried to come along and bring their complaints to me as well. But no, they were fine. That must have been hard there.

Because I think you said that at that time you had a son. Yeah. Two boys, well, my boys, I think, were age 15 and 80. at the time that sort of age so but i thought at least i might be able to understand boys a bit yeah if ever if anyone can yeah well did you have any preconceptions going into prison because you just described there the the the guy that had cut his own throat and so he's a lovely young you're a lovely young man and like that's something we really don't that's not part of the conversation when we think about criminals and people in prison and like did you have preconceptions and

If so, how were they altered? Did you change your mind about anything when you started working in the prisons? I mean, I think I'm just a bit stupid. I didn't really have any particular preconceptions. I just thought this was going to be an exciting place to work. And something about Wormwood Scrubs, particularly, being such an old prison, there's so much history there.

It was, yeah, and it was a lovely camaraderie as well with the prison officers and the other members of staff. And no, I didn't have any particular, ideas of what it might be like, just took it for what it was and thank goodness the prisons were, by very much on the whole, were really, really nice to me. Wow. And how did you feel, sorry, what's so many questions? How do you feel treating them, if you ever had known what they'd done?

Did that ever weigh on you? Certainly running to an emergency in the scrubs, I wouldn't know what they'd done. And because it was such a big prison and I was duty doctor, I didn't necessarily know many of them that well I got to know them maybe over the years seeing them walking around and all that sort of thing but I mean I did go and see an old man who'd been I mean they'd want to say beating the shit out of him

but I can't do that on podcast probably Can I thank you? Well his poor old soul was in his 70s and a gang of men had rounded up on him and absolutely I mean he was barely alive when I got him and they'd fractured his femur and he was he was in such a mess but I knew that he'd committed some sort of sexual crime because that's usually the reason why men would gang up on an old man like that and he had

but you know all I saw was this poor old man you know on death's door almost so you have to just deal with yeah what you find yeah yeah and I fortunately I've always always managed to do that I never think oh my god what have you done I'm not going to talk to you ever ever thought that because if I had I couldn't have worked there no are you privy to I mean, do you have access to that information, what they've done? Are you privy to that? Well, funnily enough, in Worm and Scrubs, no, because the prison, the computer system for the prisons was completely separate from the medical notes.

So the officers couldn't access their medical notes and I couldn't access the prison notes. But sometimes there might be an entry, or certainly when I saw them coming into prison, I might ask them what they've been charged, why they're in prison when they're coming into prison. Because if somebody had been charged with murder, they had to automatically be referred to the, So a mental health team, for example. But day to day, I might not know necessarily what they'd all done, which was fine. And if I did know, in fact, there was one, again, I keep having to say it, but I met this really, really lovely man who just murdered his father on it, you know, but him as a person

just struck me as a lovely bloke who'd been demeaned all his life by his powerful bossy something dad, and he finally lost it and that was it. I don't think you planned it but my heart went out to this poor bloke who's suddenly in Wormer's scrum so it is bizarre I think I am a bit weird I don't think you are I think like as a doctor you have a duty of care

and that's something that you that all everybody who works in medicine has to adhere to and you have to take what you get at face value but also I think it's really interesting because we all imagine that we would judge and we would do all of these things but you still have to face the human humanity every day.

100%. And I honestly think when you actually know somebody on a one-to-one basis, despite what they've done and you hear their story, I luckily just didn't find myself judging them, just almost just made a friend and that was it. I imagine that's a skill that you have to have being a prison doctor. Yeah, I think it would be very miserable if you didn't. Right, yeah.

I really don't think I'd have lasted 19 years in prison if I couldn't do that. Yeah. But also for the, I mean, perhaps going off track a bit here, but for the first 11 years of working in prisons, I was told particularly by offices, don't work with women, they'll be really difficult, manipulative and emotional and self-harming and you'll hate it. So for 11 years, I didn't, you know, I was office shifts in Holloway, which was still open at the time. And then in 2015, I was offered a shift in H&P Bronzefield, which effectively took over from Holloway when it shut. largest female prison in Europe even though it's very small compared with male prisons but anyway I thought I can't can it be that bad so I did give it a go and and spent the next seven years of my working life with women and probably the most fulfilling years I've ever

spent so my idea so maybe I had a preconceived idea that women would be difficult but actually totally the opposite the most honestly the most rewarding time I think I've spent in 43 years Can I just go back just really quickly to working just with the men and the young boys? Because I can't imagine why that would have been easier, particularly like you're, you are a very like softly spoken person and you're quite like slight in in presence. Like you're, you know, you're not you're not like, I don't know, but how does how did you feel? Did it ever feel threatening being being like you in a prison? full of men? No, not at all is the quick answer. If anything, I felt slightly protected by them because they were just very, very, I was like their friend. So if I was walking around the prison

and they were on what they call association time or free flow when the prisons go from cells to canteen to educate, whatever, and I might be seeing them around walking on the wings, they were just great, you know, hi, doc, how are you, sometimes shake my hand. And it was, you know, it was, so I didn't feel scared, thank God. I didn't feel threatened. And I didn't feel threatened. And I And I'm quite proud to say that in 19 years of prison, I only once had to press the panic button because a guy I was seeing who just arrived in prison quite late at night in the scrubs.

He seemed absolutely fine, chatting quite normally. And then suddenly he leapt up, he was suffering from schizophrenia, he told me, leapt out of his chair and started cracking his head back on this concrete wall repeatedly. I honestly thought he was going to crack his head over. I thought he's either going to or he's going to turn on me. So that was only the one.

One time I pressed the panic button, and within seconds, there must have been about 10 officers arrived, which was hugely impressive. And I felt slightly embarrassed that I pressed the button almost, you know, for making a fuss. But I seriously thought the guy was going to crack his skull open. But so that was the only time. Once in 19 years. Yeah. That's amazing.

I am quite proud of that. Yeah, that is amazing. Shame it was once, but there you go. No, I think that's why they give it to you, isn't it? Yeah. So, yeah. I've been pressing it all the time. I'd be such a coward.

Did you get close to any, did you make friends with the prisoners and, like, form bonds with them? Yes, very hard not to. And I was told when I worked in the scrubs that I wasn't allowed to ever stay in touch with any prisoner after they left prison and this sort of thing, which was probably one of the hardest things about working in prison because if you care about somebody,

you want to know how they get on afterwards may be, but that wasn't possible. but now that I've retired I have actually stayed in touch with a few of the female prisoners that have left prison and that's such a joy such a joy

and having lunch within a couple of weeks' time Oh that's so lovely wonderful yeah but fascinating people and the stories that I heard well I suppose that's why I wrote to book but you know

so yeah it's great So to go to the women's presence then So you'd been told It's a really interesting Why do you think it was that you'd been told That women were more difficult And that you'd hate it so much I don't know

But I heard it so many times And I was so happy working in the scrubs I had no particular need to go and work And also I mean apart for anything Holloway was a much more difficult journey I'd had no need to do it Plus I was told Oh you know they'll eat you alive

and make life hell for you and this, that and the other. And I thought, so it's not a great invitation, is it to go in? But so when I say when I was off of this shift, I do believe in fate a bit. I do think life steers you along the way you're meant to go and you just sometimes have to follow it. And in I went and from literally day one, it was wonderful. And I did manage, again, I was quite proud of that record. I wanted to beat the Scrubs record of seven years.

So I was there for seven years and four. months until I retired in April. And I'd, you know, I absolutely loved it. But the stories that I heard from these women never, ever, ever stopped shocking me. I mean, I thought I'd get immune to it, but they never, they never, I never stopped being shocked at the stories I heard. The stories of why they were there. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I think it's something like, I think the statistic is 86% of women in prison have, have, of victims themselves of some sort of abuse, domestic violence, controlling relationships, whatever, and they are victims. And the stories I heard behind their stories of addiction and why they're in prison were so powerful and so

heartbreaking. You know, girls being injected by heroin with heroin at the age of 12, 13, so that they become prostitutes for their, and on it goes, I mean, yeah, so these poor women end up usually on drugs to obliterate the memories, then they become homeless, then they get in prison. And I knew so many women tried to get arrested so that they didn't have to sleep on the streets. Horrific. And sorry, here comes the old stats, 65% apparently, when I was there anyway, were released to homelessness.

And they have no, how do you have a chance when you're released to homelessness? Most of them would say they then go to a crack house to get shelter. and they're back on their drugs, or they try and get arrested to get back into prison. So one campaign must be to try and, there must be a better place for women than prison. So 86% of what is just like the most staggering statistic. Isn't it?

Somehow, I get that it's not surprising. Yeah. Because everything you read about, and I am interested, as all of us are in a really perverse way, in the sort of true crime. and, you know, there's a real, like, conversation and market around this at the moment. You know, so many documentaries and whatever. And time and time again, you see that women don't really fit the bill for, like,

this sort of big criminal stuff. Majority definitely are in for nonviolent crimes way and above. So, you know, and often for three-week sentence or less. Really? I mean, there's a drama on at the moment, which is wonderful about women in prison. And again, it shows the stories that, you know, going to prison, you lose your kids, you lose your home. You go out and you have to always commit a crime to survive and then you're back in prison again. Yeah.

And it's out there and it's so sad. What sort of crimes are the justice system putting women in prison for? Well, I should think the majority of women I saw were shoplifting, petty theft, burglary. And that's enough to go to prison for. Yeah, this is to get money to get the drugs usually. Well, I say that because mainly I was working with the drug users in that prison. So, you know, the most of the women I knew were from those backgrounds. rounds. But yes, of course there were serial killer, Lucy Lepe, and murderers and man's

law to charges. Lucy Leapie was in the prison when you were there? She was on remand before going up, I don't know what prison she went to. But yeah, so yes, there were certainly real crime as well, but the majority I would say were sort of, I say, burglaries, shoplifting, theft, that sort of thing. Yeah, and so many these women have been victims themselves. Well, I mean, I was told that when I started at that prison by the man in charge of the prison,

and he just gave me that statistic. So if anyone should know, it must have been the ban running the prison. And it was to sort of, I think, warn me that we should be aware that these women have been traumatized and damaged. Were there, was there any kind of mental health available for them? Oh, there was, but there was a huge, I mean, mental health illness in prison was massive. So yes, there's psychiatrists there,

psychologists, mental health teams, mental health. So there's a lot of support on offer, but almost not enough. And if some poor soul was desperately mentally unwell, not safe to be anywhere, you know, maybe mental health bed wasn't available in a psychiatric hospital, that person might end up in prison for their safety and for the public safety,

but actually it was just a very severe mental health. illness that had caused the problem so not necessarily the right place for no way and it could take ages to then get a psychiatric bed for them so yeah that that was a very difficult side of working there I think the mental health side were the women who were addicted to heroin were they were they given help to detox yeah oh gosh yes when they arrive in yeah yeah oh my god were you part of that oh very much so I mean the last well how many years five years I suppose that's That's what I was mainly doing. But so when they arrive in prison, in reception, they're seen by the nurse and then whatever

doctor's working that shift. And if they're detoxing from heroin, they definitely need help really. By far, occasionally they might say, I'm going to call turkey, I can go by. But I would say 95% needed methadone and medication to help them. But again, if they're not in for long enough, they won't detox. They'll go back and use heroin often. It's still a brutal process to detox even with methadone. Yes, absolutely.

I mean, if they're very big users and they're only allowed to start off, because it can be very, very dangerous if you gave them too much methadone. So they're only allowed 30 mils of methadone when they come in. But often, you know, they may, in a few, they might need 70 miles, but they can't, they have to build up to that because it's just very dangerous. But yes, they can go through awful times. That must have been really hard to witness that. Oh.

Oh. And actually, when they came into prison, of course, they might not have had her in for a day or two and were really, really having a bad time. And that could make them quite aggressive and angry and irritable and impatient. So when I was asked to work with the drug users on the wing on a regular basis to help them once they'd settled into prison, I thought, well, no, thank you. I'll be, you know, it's just people are going to be so nasty to deal with. But not at all. Once they'd settle down, these were the way. women I got to know and love over seven or years and miss them. I miss you. I was really struck in the book as well and you just said it there that once these women were leaving prison, so many of them tried to be re-arrested so they can come back. Definitely. I think you said in the book that they'd often sleep near the prison after they'd been. So yes, they would try and get arrested and a woman I met said it was the first time she felt safe. in bed for seven years because she'd been living in such a violent relationship with this man. They'd, I had, women would sleep, usually they'd tell me they'd sleep during the day so that

they, they could walk around at night not get raped on the streets. So a woman said she slept in a public lavatory during the day so that she could, she felt she wasn't going to get, I say, raped at night. One woman lived in a bin shoot outside of one-stop shop so she could eat the food they were throwing out. I mean, all over the place. But yes, they, they, certainly particularly when it's cold and wet and whatever they tell me they try and get back into prison and again at christmas time that would be a time they try and get arrested rather than be having a nice Christmas dinner and make sense much more desirable place to be well yeah what's the alternative I think I fear constantly it becomes almost home from home

and that's shocking it's shocking it is and it's interesting as you said I think the biggest shame that I feel as a Londoner is the homelessness here and that we can fail so many people so catastrophically like it doesn't even see and at the time of recording we've just had Svella Brabman describe it as a lifestyle choice and like it's all so revolting and so horrific

and I know my god imagine that as a lifestyle choice in fact one of the best one of the things I appreciate more than ever and I'm coming up for 69 years of age next week is the fact that I've got a bed to sleep in and a roof over my head.

My God, I cannot imagine. I literally cannot imagine how I would cope. I think I would probably try and get into prison. Me too, definitely. Yeah. And you're very, I'm always struck, and I hate, and I actually hate how used to seeing men sleeping on the streets

that we are, because it's always been. But when I see a woman on the streets, it's like, it takes my breath. Well, now when you've seen them asleep during the daytime, you'll know it's because, because they're too frightened to sleep at night. Which is just horrific. Because I don't come up to London very often at all now,

but when I lasted, there was a woman tucked up in a sleeping bag in the daytime on the street, and I thought, well, you know, I know why she's sleeping at this time of day. God, bless her. It's so awful. Isn't it? And is there not halfway houses, or how does that work for women living prison? Well, one wonderful woman I met.

I did write a book about the women in prison actually and she and I did stay in touch with her for a while after it was actually anyway she finally got out of prison after years and years and years and was put in a hostel for two months I think in Battersea I think it was for two months but after that she was sort of more or less on her own so I don't really know how it works to ever ever get housing for prisons when they leave after a long time but there was a wonderful place I visited near Birmingham actually

and it's a charity wrong place but it's a refuge for women and when they've come out of prison but they only have about five or six beds but they also have a day centre where the women could go and learn cooking skills and schools with their babies that sort of thing and that was a fantastic place you just said about babies there can I ask that must have been horrific dealing with mothers

who'd had to leave their babies Well, to me, completely and utterly unimaginable. I don't think any mother could imagine how awful that would be. They have a mother and baby unit in Bronsfield for 12 mothers, and I think there's a twin room as well, so 13, potentially 13 babies. But not everyone is allowed to keep their baby in prison. How does it work when they... Well, I think they have to go through a panel and decide whether they're going to be worthy of a place in the mother and baby unit.

and they can keep their children until they're 18 months of age. Sometimes they're allowed a little bit longer. I did meet a woman who was, you know, going to be released in a month or two after, and she had been allowed to keep her little one with her. I mean, it would utterly destroy me if I had to. Oh, it doesn't bear a think about, does it?

No, I've got a baby. I've got a nine-month-old baby. Oh. And the thought of having to... Oh. And there's nothing... It's, I don't know, it seems so, there's nothing that feels less natural than ripping a mother and baby apart. Did you have pregnant women in the whole, in the, in the, in the prison?

Oh, yes. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And childbirth? Well, so pregnant women in prison are looked after by a separate medical team. So midwife and local hospital comes in. They keep their antinatal notes separately. They have a perinatal psychiatrist there. So, so the pregnancy side of the hospital hospital. looking after women in prison is very much looked after separately from, if like, the GPs.

But they would have their babies in hospital unless, of course, somebody goes into premature labour, which nobody's expecting, which can happen. But they would normally go to hospital to have their babies. Yeah. And then they can bring the babies back again. Yes, depending on what's been decided for that little one. And there could be, there were cases. that they wouldn't be allowed to. So they might be taken into care with a family member or, I didn't have to get too involved with that side of it. And I'm very glad I didn't because I'd find it too sad.

Yeah, that's an imagine. Traumatic. And occasionally if I saw a woman on a, say, a Sunday morning clinic and she'd come over from the mother and baby unit with her little baby in a pram. It's so sweet. That's nice that you got to see. I did get a bit gooey about it. Yeah.

Yeah, I can imagine. Oh my God, that's just like... Unimaginable. Isn't it? It feels so, like, the prison's no place for a baby. One woman I remember coming into prison and she was, I think, 37 weeks pregnant with twins, complicated pregnancy.

We didn't have her proper notes when she arrived. It was weekend and I just thought this is madness. The poor woman was terrified because the pregnancy had been so difficult anyway. I can't remember, I wouldn't say the details of it all, but it was just, I just think, I remember thinking this is just madness. Yeah. To me. Yeah. Yeah. But, surely there was somewhere that fall in prison. You would think, wouldn't you? Yeah. Do you feel like we're failing women in that regard? Yes. Yeah. Well, yeah, I certainly do. I certainly think that, you know, as we've been

saying, the fact that most of these women are damaged and being abused and commit crime because of the the way their lives led and to then be home. I mean, it's just awful. Yeah. So, yeah, I can't be, I can't say we're not failing them. Is there any help with getting jobs after they've left prison? There are.

I think there's quite a lot of, again, I don't know enough about it, but quite a few charities out there that help women try and get jobs. And if they're in prison for long enough, they can learn skills. You know, hair dressing and painting nails. I know someone that did that. And catering, et cetera. I think they can do NVQs in catering and hairdressing and stuff. So actually, if they have determined to do it,

and they're in for long enough, they can get skills and get jobs afterwards. The other one that's a very popular job in prison is the call centre. And that's, I think, probably not that they get paid very much at all, but I think it's higher paid than some of the other jobs in prison. Yeah. And, you know, so I mustn't be all doom and gloom. I'd just seen such a sad side of it

that's coloured my judgment a bit but there are some very positive outcomes as well from women in prison, thank God. Thank God, yeah. Is there one prison in particular that's really like left a mark on you and really stayed with you? I think in their way they all have funnily enough.

It's hard to say where I enjoyed it most. I suppose I became very, very fond of the women but I also found Wellman's Crubs an incredibly exciting, challenging time really, really exciting and again the boys were fun in their way and then I did do a while back at Huntercombe actually

when it became a foreign national prison and so I worked with foreign national prisoners for some time and that was that in its way was beautiful too what's a foreign national prison it's for anybody that's committed a crime that hasn't actually got a legal right to be in the country. And I struggle with this a little bit because I'm not sure I fully understand it. But I think if a family had come

over, say from Jamaica 30 years ago and the baby was never given a British passport and then grew up in this country and whatever, whatever, if that person then commits a crime, they might find out that actually they have no legal right to be in the UK. They have to be deported back to the country. No, they don't. Well, yeah. So that's why that was very, very stressful working there because I couldn't, awful. I mean, some people were being sent back to countries they had no idea about maybe a French-speaking African country and they couldn't speak French or... Oh, God.

As a criminal as well. Yeah, well, they serve their time as a criminal in the UK prison and then get deported when they leave prison back to their country. And there was a guy that I knew, I think he was from Jamaica, I forget which country, but anyway, he was gay and he said he was absolutely terrified because, because for whatever country it was that he would be almost tortured for being gay if people found out, you know, so people can't be who they are sometimes in the country they might be sent back to, if that makes sense.

That must have been a hard-working place to work. It was really, really hard work. Not hard work, but it was stressful because I couldn't change the situation they were in. And another man, he was in his 60s, he was on treatment for really. failure who's going to be deported back to an African country and I can't remember which one and without the medication he wouldn't survive very long at all but he knew that he couldn't afford the medication in the country he was going back to so sort of like a death sentence if he actually and he got grandchildren in this country so imagine trying to help a poor man with that

facing that sort of future I it just I couldn't I couldn't change things for them to the end up going back. He did. Gosh. So, you know, I did, I did find it very, very, very hard to, I couldn't help them if you know what I mean. That's so frustrating. There's just nothing you can do, but you can see the injustice and the pain of not only these prisoners, but their families as well. Yeah. I mean, again, some of them are okay going back. They were fine with it, but the ones that weren't are the ones that you know left a mark on me and I imagine I think it's really interesting going back as what it's kind of saying earlier like it feels you kind of want to be really black and white about this and be like well they did a bad thing and kind of prison feels like the final

chapter and a lot of like our psyches when you think about you know you do a bad thing and then you go to prison and that's that and it doesn't really occur to you that this life for them after prison or that they might actually get poorly in prison you know that that doesn't you know that someone might be having renal failure in prison that we don't I feel like societally maybe maybe it's a societal issue that we just don't have any humanity or any thought or any it's like you do one bad thing and sometimes people do really bad things but you do the bad thing and that's it then that's just the end of you as far as this the world the country's concerned and then there's no hope really yeah I mean I think um if if we could just

understand more about the actual individual rather than just yes they're in prison and that's it but i again i can't imagine if i'd been in prison for 10 years how do you then start out in life and find a place to live i don't i have no idea that thank god i don't i hope i don't have to um sure you won't yeah you never know after this yeah absolute minefield sorry this is really morbid but obviously people will get cancer in prison as well. Did you, I guess, does it work like a normal GP? As in they come to you with something that you think, oh, that looks cancerous, and then are they sent to a hospital?

Yes, yes, yes. It works all like it does outside of prison. Yeah, absolutely. So again, I saw a young man, he was only in his early 30s, and he came to me with a what he thought he'd torn a muscle. He was sort of body lifting in the gym and that sort of thing. Anyway, cut a long story short, it felt a little bit sinister. He had a scan.

It turned out to be a sarcoma type of cancer. He got treated, he recovered, he was fine. So that was a real, you know, plus time thinking, you know, diagnosed it, got him out to hospital, got treated. And he wrote to me when he left prison and thanked me, and that was beautiful. another very very very sweet man he he was in Wormer's Grubs for some time he was from a I think from Ghana but anyway he knew he'd got cancer when he came to this country he was arrested for smuggling drugs for which I presume he got quite a lot of money and he did it

knowing he was dying so that his family would be supported in Africa that the money he was going to get from whatever he did would make his family safe and secure for their lives, knowing he'd probably get arrested and knowing he might die away from them. And I find, I honestly, that man was just incredible. He was then transferred from Wormers' Grubs to Hunter Coom where I saw him and met him. And he and I just became good, good mates. And I referred about to the local hospital. I mean, he was beyond treatment. But he managed, thank God, to survive long enough to get back to his family. Did he? Yes. And that was, that was, that was fantastic.

Oh my gosh. It's so lovely to hear like he did a bad thing like he smuggled drugs but it's kind of lovely. I probably do that too. Honestly I'm sorry I would given that choice if you thought your family would be destitute, starving and whatever

or you get a bundle of money you might die, get arrested I would probably do it too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Knowing that he yeah. Honestly given that choice if it was your I mean I think again And most parents, I mean, I used to sort of say, I literally think I'd die for my boys if I had to, you know.

Yeah, I'd die from my baby. It's hard to judge someone for a choice like that, right? It's, that's hard. Yeah, and I think you realize as well, I'm listening to you speak, and I really felt this when I read your book as well, it's like, if you put yourself in someone else's shoes, you'd probably make the same decisions they did. Of course. Particularly for the women. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And that's why certainly I've definitely, definitely learned not to judge people and realize that so many people, even if they might look a bit scary sometimes, you know, quite intimidating. But actually underneath all that, they're just very nice people. Yeah.

And you were privy to the context behind what they'd done and why they were there, which is extremely important and often what is missing around the conversation around criminals, right? definitely when you've got somebody like lucy let me for example a really high profile case are you able to just put it all away and be like i'm going to help me like that must be hard a case like that must be if it's high profile and you know you know you know i know you said it's it is hard it is hard but as i said before if if you don't put it to one side i shouldn't be working there no god you're amazing i don't think so i guess with cases like that you just have to put your medical hat on, I'm imagining.

And treat, you know, be very matter of fact about it and treat the medical problem and then walk away. Yes, yes. Definitely. I mean, I'm glad I don't sit on a jury because nobody'd be sent to prison. I don't think. Yeah, I do think he could be a juror now. No, please.

You've seen too much. I guess a nice place to end would be if you have any stories of like hope and happy endings, if anyone that you've worked with or that you got to meet or that you've heard from subsequently? Well, one very lovely story to me, if you've got time, I don't know if you have. Young man I met quite late tonight,

Wilmwood Scrabber's first night centre, back in prison, surly, angry, quite intimidating in his appearance, did not want to talk to me, stared at his feet, hardly answered a question, but I managed to sort of get him chatting and it turned out that he grew up in care, he'd had a terrible childhood but that his mother was trying to get back in touch with him and I said oh that's wonderful and he said no no he said I'm not I'm not going to get in touch

again I don't want to be rich I can't face being rejected again and at one point I am quite easily I do cry quite easily and I found it just broke my heart to think of a mother out there trying to find her son again you know because I was sort of almost thinking how would how would I feel if that were me I got a little bit teary eyed And he realized that I was quite upset, and he then got out of his chair. And I know I'm not meant to hug anybody, but he hugged me, and he was completely different. And weeks later, I saw him when I was walking through his wing in the scrubs, he shot down the stairs, beaming smile, completely different sort of demeanour,

and said, I've met up with my mum and we're a family again. Oh, and of all the things that if I could end my life, well, I mean, my life is coming to an end I suppose at this age but, you know, I'll never forget that and I hope to go out there somewhere he's still with it. Yeah, isn't it lovely? Yeah. And just that, just that being human thing, you know, the fact that I couldn't

literally would destroy me if I if anything happened to my... Yeah, gosh. So everybody's talk now. So... I think you've done such an amazing thing with your career. So lovely. And with the books that you've written and with talking like this, I think it's so important for people to put their misconceptions aside and have more humanity for everybody. Yeah. Well, I didn't particularly, I didn't enjoy if you like, writing books

or having, because I'm actually very shy. So anything to do with talking about them, I do find quite difficult, but the publisher wanted a second book, which is about the women in prison. And then they wanted a third book and I thought anyway and I thought this has got to stop and my dear old husband who died a couple years ago but he came up with the title of the final sentence for the last book which was about the foreign national prison but and I know this sounds bit weird but the book was meant to be published as my husband was dying and um so I at least I could dedicate the third book to him and that was that was lovely yeah so sorry he lost your husband well you know but it was it was just quite nice

and in the acknowledgements I could actually thank the people that looked after him so that was all nice so there was a positive bit to writing the books you've got two more books out yeah I'm so excited I can go and read them now

I know and everyone else should go read them too we're going to put the links to all of them in the show notes oh dear I'll have to I've never listened to a podcast in my life I'm so old so I'll have to find out don't start with this one

yeah no You're going to delete Better podcasts are available Oh dear Thank you so much I have loved this so much This has been amazing Well thank you for listening to an old crow

Not at all Thank you so much Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network Thank you.