Should I Delete That? - The Science of Finding Love

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

This week on the pod, the girls are joined by the newly coronated (by Em) Queen of Dating, Logan Ury! Logan is Hinge’s director of relationship science and is here to impart all of her dating wisdom. She talks through attachment styles, the problems with modern dating and why you should let go of the ick…You can follow Logan on Instagram @loganury Follow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You think you know what you want, but you might be wrong. And it's possible that what you're looking for is completely different from what will make you happy as long term because I think people just get so caught up and like, I know what I want, I just have to find it. And it's like, well, actually, maybe you need to expand your horizons a little bit. Hello, and welcome back to Should I Delete That. I'm M. Clarkson. And I'm Georgie Swallow.

We've got Georgie Swallow back. Indeed. Just in time for Love Week. Which I love. Who doesn't love Love Week? Who doesn't? I used to hate that. Could I just tell you the worst thing I ever did?

We were, oh no. What did you do? I remember my mum once when I was, it was at school and my mom surprised me with a Valentine's chocolate and she's done it every year. Well, she didn't do chocolates anymore. If you're listening, Mom. Yeah, we miss the chocolates. But she, every year, she would still does a Valentine's Day card for us, like,

Dear Em, happy Valentine's Day, love, and then do a question mark. Like, ooh, who's your Valentine? Yeah. And she did it for me at school once for chocolates. And I was so angry with her because I was so embarrassed because I knew it was my mom. And obviously everyone else knew it was my mom as well. Do you know where I thought that story was going, though? I thought you're going to say I opened at school and then went around asking.

people who gave it to me. No, I knew. And instinctively, I was so angry because I was so embarrassed. And if you're so mean to, one, like, teenage girls are so mean to their moms. Oh, no. I was so mean to it. And I was like, how could you? Like, you ruined it's done out of love the love week.

I know. And with hindsight, it's my deepest shame. Can you please do that to your daughter as well, please? I'm thinking like at the age of 13, at peak embarrassment age. I must have been 11. Oh, devil. It does make your toes color. I know, and she was being so sweet.

Did any of the other parents get their kid? No, no, she was just the best mom. Just you, though. She was just better than all the other parents, and that's how I thanked her. Obviously, I've never forgiven myself. It's one of those things that I feel, it's like, I've done a few things in my life as a child,

mostly as a child, where you just, you're like, oh, God, did I do this? Yeah. So I was the worst. Anyway, happy Valentine's Day. It's not bad, it's Happy Valentine's Day, Eve, Eve. Eve, Eve, Eve, Eve, Eve, but the whole episode. Exactly. The whole episode is Love themed. So that's why you're here. Just an update from Alex, girl Alex. She's sliving. She's great. Thriving. But she just needs to be in her bubble right now. Thriving is a mama bear. Yeah, exactly. So we're just going to leave her to it. And we got Georgie back to tell me something good, please, bad or awkward.

My good is I'm going on a solo adventure this week. And I'm so proud of you for that. All the way to Sri Lanka. On me, Todd. I'm terrified, but I'm so excited. It's so great. I just think, like, bucket list time. Like, this is a real bucket list adventure, and it took a lot of cahones for me to say yes to, and I'm so excited about it. I'm going on your own.

I'm so proud of you. I know. But you're going to, I know what happened. You're going to come back with, like, 50 new friends, and I'm going to be like, yeah, yeah, I'm really happy. Didn't you have a great time? Sorry, who is that. Yeah, fuck, all.

Jenny who? You all get the shit. I'm going to get the shit. You're going to get the shit. Nothing's more. then you're going to get the chance. It's fine. I have actually bought anti-diary tablets, so they're going in the back of pack.

We went to Sri Lanka with my dad a few years ago and as a thank you present for the trip, I framed him a packet of deoralite as a reminder of the trip. I was really worried what you're going to say your gift was then. I framed him a shit. A really runny one. That's where my brain went. Okay, what could possibly be bad at this time of great excitement for you?

Oh, it was bad. It was real bad. Okay. So the other night, as I am packing for said adventure, which in itself is a bad time for me because I'm not a great packer. I'm not the most organised of queen.

You're a terrible packing. You're the worst packer I know. I'm like a panic packer. That's, I mean, I actually can't speak to your actual panic. You're packing, but I can't speak to the whole atmosphere around the packing. Panic, it's horrible. Well, that experience was made ten times worse because it was that midnight and I've put loads of stuff on my bed to try and organise it.

And I thought, right, look at me being an organised human over here. and I obviously then realised I had to get into bed so instead of folding things, picking them away, you know, you just kind of shake it off the bed and that's future Georgie's problem and as I did that, the mother of all spiders was sitting in the middle of my bed like making himself far too comfy

and as if that was bad enough I then panicked a bit because he was so chunky you've got to put him in the glass, getting munda and I like used my passport because I thought well that's, you know, it's thick and it's sturdy and I opened my door, it's windy, it's dark, it's midnight, and I walked up and down my balcony about five times because I was too scared to let this chonk of a spider out

and I'm muttering to myself, I'm in panic, it was a fluster of an evening, and I see my neighbour's light turn on because they can obviously hear a crazy lady outside instead of going, oh, I better be quiet and just deal with this as an adult. I called their name at midnight while we're both in our pajamas. Help me and my amazing,

neighbour very kindly had to come out and dispose of said spider but that whole instance in itself is my bad because I'm just slightly more to find the fact that they're 31 year old couldn't get rid of the terrifying spider on my head it was not great in your bed though it's such an invasion I nearly spooned him it's found I had to burn my house down really afterwards at least the bed that's why you're here yeah I've got no hours to go it is late we were waiting I got no You're still here. Yeah, that's really bad. Well, its wife is upstairs in Arlo's bedroom.

Oh my God, that was a tonky one as well. That's bad enough. I don't know what's going on. It's not spider season. I don't know what they're all doing. Get out. Isn't it? What zodiac season is it right now?

Has it got anything to do with spiders? No. It's a quiet. Spider season's like September. I did hear that conquers are meant to help deter spiders. Yes, in September. When conquers are out, there's no, it's February. What are you going to find a conker?

This is blossom season, baby. I don't know. Who's got conkers? They can send me and M. Yeah, any concrete collectors. Please. We'll pay. Help a girl out.

What have you got for me? Good. Just good vibes. Just good vibes. I love that. I mean, I was at Arlai's birthday party since we last spoke on the pod, which was so lush. Thank you for coming. You're welcome.

That was just really lovely to have a, like, so full of love. And I'm doing really well in my running, and everything does feel quite good, but it does also link with my bad, because as well as being really good everything's just quite hard at the moment also and it's like I just feel like well I mean as it you were looking at me like this is a surprise like I haven't just been crying to

literally I'm like doing it to the pod you know I'm like oh that's new this sounds sad I just can't get the fucking balance right at the moment I'm either like absolutely fine or I'm not but that doesn't sound that sounds weird but I am fine even when I'm not fine

but it was just like today we were supposed to go to V&A. And how long ago did we buy these tickets? Months. And that's me and you. Like we are not buying tickets months in advance people. We were so excited to go to the Chanel show because my mum went and said it was absolutely amazing. It was a sold-out show. We literally got the last tickets available. They were today.

And I was so excited. Like, I've literally been really looking forward to it. And then Arlo had our jabs on Monday, which were fucking brutal, one-year jabs. Didn't really think about them until they were upon us. You've just had them recently. I did. I'm about the same mental age as Arlo. 31 years old.

um and anyway they've just really hit her hard sleep's been 50 million times worse than it was she's got a cold she got a fever like everything's just been like oh my little teethees are coming through she's walking so that's a big step like it's just all fucking go and she just was like she didn't want to go to the show but in a year in in our entire mother-daughter relationship we haven't had that she's been you know like we did japan like we do everything she comes she's a really um adaptable she's a go-getter as the baby she's a yeah she's a go-getter yeah she's coming she's just she's such an aquariums but she's yeah she's so normally whatever so and to she was just having absolutely nothing. She had a bad day. And we all have them.

Yeah. And then she was crying and then I was crying. So then I had to ring you and be like, I can't do it. But no, what you did do, this is my good actually. What you did do is that you followed me home from the show in your own car, swapping at M&S to buy biscuits and flowers. Snacks. And crumpets and chocolate and pretzels. Food makes everything better.

I know. I know. It's the key to my heart. you came here and we didn't go to the show which is sad but you did come here and we went to soft play and then you cleaned up the fridge and the freezer and then you bathed my baby and then you listen to me cry I don't I mean I realise

my really nice evening was on the back of your really bad time but I've had a great time well I love you so you're my good literally love you alone are the good that's not true because there are other goods but you today no I'm going to take all credit for the good I am the sole good in the universe right this second You have to share it with my baby.

There's a law. Done. Happily. I'm my dog. Oh, little boo-bett. Sorry, can part of my bad be that she tried to hunt me earlier? No, I didn't know. I said it a million times.

Stop being so frigid. All right, okay, awkward before we get into the life. Okay, so my awkward happened this morning. So I'm a bucket list babe right now. I've got a lot of things that I want to say yes to. She's in her bucket list era. Yeah, and one of them is I want to get my motorbike license. So every time I see someone on their bike, I'm like, oh my God.

look at that like motorbike queen look at the king like he's thriving on his little bike and where they don't like it when you call them little bikes little bikes they like it when you say on that hog big big hong you get on your hongs not like little tiny bike yeah um and where i live when you look out my window all the motorbikes of the people that live there are right under my window and i always see these like young adults leaving on them like you guys are sick like yeah and i was actually at my window seat like watching one of them leave and i was like you badass person so i start filming them because I'm like this is really cool and in my head that's acceptable

I mean you can't see you it's they have a helmet on it's like it's weird but like I was like in my head it was fine and in your head it was okay your honor he gets on his bike and he like pushes himself back and little legs and he this poor man

he's like I'm a hardcore motorbike dude and there was no time like he didn't like glance around he lifted his head up and I'm on the second floor straight up and directly at me with my camera filming him which means he knew I was doing it

because he immediately looked up he saw me filming and instead of me being like hey neighbourino or at least doing something I panicked and ducked on the floor and now I have to move yeah yeah you've got to go no i have to so i'm going to shrillanka i haven't coming back

dude how weird is that that's really weird because now and now i'm worried like that poor person is going to be like why was she from me and i wanted a normal person would have opened their window and gone your bike's really cool i'm sending it to my boyfriend like they would have thought on their feet and gone to no i panicked lobbed my phone dropped to the ground and now i can't live there anymore and i needed the ground to swallow me up and i can't go home ever now i really do know while you're here. It's 9-10. Go home. You can't. No. I can only leave and come back in the cover of darkness. And you know what the worst thing is? Is I want to be, because I was like, I was actually going to put on Instagram and be like, go, it's like, how sick this person is on their bike. Like,

I want to be that person. So it was all complementary, but I was stalking them essentially. And now I want to go in the witness protection, even though I'm the stalker. You don't get to go in the witness protection. But I would like to. Can I, where do I apply? This is for you. They're all where to avoid people like you. You've, you've, you've, you've fucking I've actually thought of a plan though because what I'm going to do is when I've become a bike of babe which is obviously going to happen and I park my bike with all these people I'm going to

like beat them to the punch so they don't think they know they know they know who I am in case they do I don't know I'm going to go there no helmet's never going to come off and I'm going to go guys do you ever see that weirdo filming you from upstairs and then I'm not that weirdo they won't be like the weirdo will ask that they'll assume I'm not and I'll dye my hair and grow my stuff

you're going to have to cancel your lip threading appointment yeah um please have a good awkward for me help me out you were with me on my awkward I forgot to wear socks to soft play today oh yeah screw my nose is worse it's it's foul like I don't even think it's allowed and I did look everywhere for a sign and it didn't explicitly say please wear socks but it's unspoken you're at soft play wear socks you're in public you shouldn't have your toes out

if I got a veruca it's no less than I deserve like I deserve if I caught one today you're gonna get like I know and I deserve it because I should have worn socks and the second I got there

I saw my mistake but I what am I supposed to And it was busy It was busy And it's not just kids No no no Adult Kids I could handle

Also my toes are super hairy But that's besides the point And evidence of good circulation So we're not gonna worry about that Apparently say Oh I'm always gonna enjoy hairy toes there Do you enjoy mine But

Yeah foul Yeah And I was so aware of it And this other woman was quite nice And she was talking to us But like, you know She's looking at your toes Absolutely

She knows And I know And I know I could hear her and her friend Talking in hashtags And I know that they said Can you believe she hasn't got socks on? Which is fair enough

You're now forever Every time you go Going to be like Oh that's the woman Didn't wear socks I know And I thought What I thought was gonna happen

Is that when the woman came down The woman who ran it When I thought she was gonna come down And say No so you see your socks on And when she came down I got palpitations

I got like You've got too many piercings And there's teachers about to notice. Imagine how you'd feel if it was like someone else's feet and you could see

their feet just like wandering around in there. No, no, don't because I would... Yeah, it would make everything inside me cringe I'd be like, mm-mm and that's what they

were all thinking about you. Just leave my child to the stalker. Just to leave the stalker looking after her to leave that fucking weirder who wouldn't take the bike helmet off the whole time.

Imagine walking in with just a bike helmet hey, this is my baby. No, that just sounds bad enough as it is. I'll do that next time so that they won't recognise me by my feet. We need two bikes

Two bike helmets, please. We'll go to health us. We need help us, please. So a successful week on all parts. Exactly that. So that's that. Without further ado, an episode that we absolutely loved. And to be honest with you, before we did it, I was like, I'm not sure, like, I'm not sure how much there is a stand to learn here, particularly because I've been in a relationship for ages.

But what I found fascinating about this episode was learning about attachment styles and about, like, who I am within the relationship. that I'm in. Like, I thought this was just going to be, like, for single Pringles, which I thought me and Alex, Girl Alex, were not qualified to do as interviewers. But it ended up being so fascinating. And I've talked to so many people about it since we recorded it. So I hope you guys enjoy it as much as we did. Without further ado, here with Logan Yuri.

Hi, Logan. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm going to say this evening, but that's irrelevant. Time's irrelevant. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. time anyway. Time is just the construct. Don't get bogged down with it. I am so excited to talk with you. You are like the queen of dating, right? Like that's your, that's what I'm, I'm niceing you, queen, coronating. I love it. Thank you. And there's so much I want to talk to you about, obviously,

Hinge, which is, I mean, actually, I'm going to say thank you. My sister's boyfriend came to us via Hinge. I make him sound like he arrived in the post, but she found him on Hinge. So obviously, Hinge and everything, and there's so much I want to talk to you about, but I'd really love to know where this all started for you and what dating looked like for you and what the moment was where you just thought something has to change and I'm going to become the queen of this land. Absolutely. Well, thank you for knighting me. It feels very official. I appreciate it and I'm super happy to be here with you. So yes, I work as the Director of Relationship Science at Hinge, which is a dream job. I get to talk about dating, research dating, learn about dating, help people

with dating. And so that's a really, really fun role in which I'm getting to work with our marketing team and our product team and our research team. And so I've worked there for almost four years and I get to think about dating all the time. And then outside of Hinge, I also work as a dating coach working with people one on one and I write a newsletter and I teach classes. So I'm kind of thinking about dating all the time and I love it. That's what I wanted. And I started doing this stuff around eight years ago. Really, when dating apps just kind of started popping off, I was like, this is very new. This feels different. This is not the same as a matchmaker. This is not the same as meeting somebody at work. It just felt very new and I was so interested and curious about it that I

was like, how can I start learning about it? So I started researching about it, talking to experts, hosting events, and it's kind of transformed into a few different things, which was my book, How to Not Die Alone, which came out a few years ago, this work at Hinge, the one-on-one work that I do. And really, I'm just such a curious person. I have a background in psychology. And so when I was thinking, how can I contribute to this space? How can I help people? I thought, well, what do I have that feels different and unique. And so what I have is this research background and specifically in this field called behavioral science, which is the study of how we make decisions. And so I thought a lot about how does decision making apply to dating? And that's really kind of where my specialty is,

which is lots of people want to be in a relationship. Why are they single? Why is it not working out? Well, it's a culmination of decisions. Are they making good decisions that propel them into a relationship, or are they making bad decisions where they're repeating the same negative patterns over and over again? And so I like to break down dating into its small parts and then say, where are people getting it wrong? And how can I help them make better decisions along the way so that they wind up in that dream relationship? So prior to you learning about online dating and apps, what were you doing? What was your profession? Was it psychology? Yeah. So I worked at Google right out of college. So I studied psychology undergrad. And then I worked at Google and I

had a series of different jobs at Google. And they were all interesting. And I had this one job that I had for a while, which was running this decision science team. So basically, it was called the Irrational Lab, which is the idea that people are often irrational. And how can we help them understand that? How can product and marketing and different teams at Google understand how people are irrational? So it was already applying psychology to the product world of Google. But in my spare time, I was like, I'm obsessed with dating. It's so interesting. Everyone is having trouble. I'm having trouble. This is so interesting. And so I started this series called Toxic Google Modern Romance. So a platform to basically bring people in to talk about

dating. And that was really a pivotal moment because I was like, oh, there's a there there. Like a thousand people signed up for the group in a day. Lots of people would come to the events. Millions of people would watch it on YouTube. I'm sure you have had this feeling before with your podcast and your Instagram and other things where you're like, what I'm putting out there, people are resonating with, I should do more of this because this is what people needs. And it's like that really special moment when you hit on a need. And that's how I felt when I started that series. Can I ask about your personal life at that time? You said you were like struggling with dating. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's always a really interesting thing because

I imagine that the experts on dating either, they're like dating all the time very successfully, although what does that even look like? Because surely if you were dating very successfully, then you wouldn't need to keep dating because you'd have succeeded at it. So I don't know. I don't know what I imagine a dating expert's life to look like. But at that time, what did your dating look like? It is really interesting when you just think about the world of experts. Like, a friend of mine is an expert on the psychology of motherhood, but she's not a mother.

And, like, she is a doctor. She has studied this for years. She has every piece of expertise in the book, but people still give her a hard time because she's not a mother. And so it is interesting, like, what people expect from their experts. And so anyway, just like as a meta point, I always find that interesting. For me, so I have always liked dating. Like, I had boyfriends in high school.

I had fun boyfriends and flings in college. Like, I was always actively interested in romance and dating and all of that stuff, which like now I know is like a certain type of dater, whereas like there's people who maybe were really curious about dating but weren't doing it at all or they weren't prioritizing it. I would always say it was like a theme in my life. Like Sunday brunch was always, you know, what happened last night? like, who are you interested in, all of that stuff? When the dating app started coming out, really, like, the swiping apps, that's when I noticed,

like, this just feels different. Like, the first night that you have one of them and you're going through all these people, I could just tell it was like, the psychology of this is crazy. Like, who likes me? Do you like me? Do you like me? Like, all of that stuff was really a fascinating experience for me. In my life, I had had post-college a number of relationships, maybe, like, a year or two.

some that I met online, some that I met at work, a combination of that. But a pivotal moment for me was when I met this guy who I was super interested in and I had like a huge crush on and I thought he might be interested in me. And now I would call him a fuck boy. And I would say maybe we're in a situation ship. But at the time, I was just like, I don't understand. Like I like this person. Why doesn't he like me back?

And I have a lot of compassion for that person that I was because it was just so It was like, I don't understand. Why isn't this person interested in me? How can I convince them to like me? And it really became this thing of, well, if you reject me, then you must be better than me. So how can I convince you of my value? Whereas nowadays, I would want to say something like, if someone's not interested in you, like that's what you need to know and move on and find somebody who is interested in you. And so for me, it was really this feeling of being in a lot of pain around dating, having a hard time, not really understanding like the bigger message of you want somebody who you choose and they choose you. So then I ended up seeing a dating coach

and that was super helpful because she helped me understand, wait, this guy doesn't make me feel good. He brings out an anxious side of me. This isn't a healthy dynamic. But wait, how do I want to feel? And there's a guy at work who I'm friends with who makes me feel that way. And through her encouragement, I ended up kind of pursuing that guy or being pursued by him, you know, sort of mutual interest. And now we are married and we've been together for almost nine years. And so I feel like I hopefully am a good example to people of it's not like, oh, dating was so easy for me and I figured it out. It's like dating was hard for me. Then I did work to understand myself. And then I figured it out and have this great marriage and relationship. And I want other people to do that.

And so I think if someone's dating has been too easy, they might not even be that approachable for someone because it's like, oh, you're so beautiful. Like everyone's falling all over you and you got married at 21. It's like, well, that's certainly not my situation. And so I'd rather be a person who was like, I was in the trenches with you. These are the steps I took to get out of it. And I want to help you do that too. It's actually, when you describe it, it's actually quite complicated, isn't it? It's like a multi-prone thing because you have to work on the psychology of other people and the people.

and the people that you're dating, but also yourself as well, right? Like you're saying, you were kind of like, you were looking in the wrong places. Absolutely, yeah, it's really, you can't control other people, you can just try to change yourself and even changing yourself is pretty hard.

You use the words anxious in reference to your own dating style. Yeah. And something I'd be really interested to hear about is attachment styles. Like, it's something that, again, like I don't feel like we have the language for that, 10, before the

10, 15 years ago, it wasn't like common parlance where you'd understand what kind of attachment style you had. Can I infer from the fact that you were describing yourself dating as anxiously

that you had an anxious attachment style? Yeah, definitely. And if you did, and anybody's listening and they relate to that, what can they do to unanxious it? To make it secure.

Yes, sure. I'm happy to give a quick back background on that. So, yes, I would say when I was dating, I had an anxious attachment style. And in dating my now husband, he helped me have a more secure attachment style. And for people who aren't familiar with this, so there's a framework called attachment theory. It's based on really good science and relationship research. And it goes back to a number of factors. But it's really like, how do you interact in romantic relationships? And what's your relationship with independent? and what's your relationship with intimacy? And so there's people who are anxiously attached daters, like I was, where they really want to have a lot of overlap with their partners. They want to talk to them all the time. They want to be in touch. They want to know where each other is. And when they meet someone, they really want to lock it down and be in that relationship. They have a lot of fear of abandonment. And a lot of what anxiously attached daters spend time doing, unfortunately,

is worrying about things like, are you not interested in me? Did you meet someone else? Why did you not text me? And they want to have this closeness. There's avoidant attached daters who, are sort of the opposite. They don't want somebody to get too close. They feel like when you get too close, I'm going to lose my independence. You're going to smother me. Love is feeling like somebody is kind of all over you and you don't have your own space. And so when somebody gets close to them, they push them away. And then there's securely attached daters who are sort of in the middle in the best way where they want intimacy and they want connection, but they also want independence. And so they can be close to you and tell you that they like you and share their real feelings, but they also

can take space for themselves. They don't constantly need to be in touch. And so securely attached daters are really great because they have that balance. And so an anxiously attached dater who dates somebody secure, that could be really helpful for them because for me, it was like when I would do my old patterns, my now husband would say, hey, you know, seems like you're upset. We should talk about this in person. And it was like breaking these patterns that I had. And it helped me become more secure. And then with avoid and attached daters, if they are dating somebody who's secure, that secure person helps the avoid and attach daters get closer to intimacy and say, like, look, we just had a sleep over and I'm going to hang out of your house for an hour and have brunch with

you. And then I'm going to go home and that's going to be okay. And kind of helping them understand, like, you can be in this relationship and still be independent. Unfortunately, a lot of anxious people and avoided people date each other. And so they reinforce these bad habits where it's, I'm chasing you and you're pulling away. And I think that's exciting. And you think oh, this is what it's always like. And so it's not until you break that pattern that people really have a change. And so of all the things that I teach, of all the research that I've studied, I think this is one that has the most aha moments for people because when you hear that story, you're like,

oh, I've always been doing that. I always try to convince somebody to like me. I always chase people. I feel like if somebody doesn't want me, then they must be better than me. And so sort of understanding, like, this is a type of person that's bringing out a style in you and you can make a different choice. I think that's so empowering for people. I mean, hard relate to the anxious attachment style.

That is me to a tee. Every single thing you said, that is exactly how I've been my whole life with the relationships. What help do you get out of it? I don't know if I am like, I mean, I'm married. Yeah, I'm assuming that you've gotten over, but maybe you haven't. I mean, I definitely, I think I definitely still have some abandonment issues. But my husband is very secure. He has a very, what did you say?

Like a very secure attachment style. Very secure. And I actually, it's, it's really, it's really like validating to hear you say all that and to know that that's not just because I'm weird that I act like that or not because, I don't know, there's a reason for it and it's like a common thing. It's kind of, it's just validating to hear that. And I think, I think going into dating, if I'd have known things like that going into dating and also been able to identify your partner's attachment style as well,

that would have made life a lot easier, I think. That's exactly how I feel. I'm like, this is real. Like, this is based on research. A lot of people have studied this. This isn't like somebody's like pet theory on TikTok that's going to be the opposite next week. And I'm like, how can more and more people know about this? And so I love frameworks.

I love these things. I also, my kind of contribution to this world is something called the three dating tendencies. and so people can take this quiz on my website, but it basically tells you what kind of date or you are insofar as unrealistic expectations. So like in my coaching, people come to me and they're like, you know, it's always a different story, but it's sort of the same story. It's like, I really want to be in a relationship. It hasn't worked out. Here's what I've been doing for the last 10 years. Can you help me? And then oftentimes there's this common theme of unrealistic expectations. And sometimes it's unrealistic expectations of themselves.

So those people are hesitators and they're not dating at all. And they think, I'm not beautiful enough. I'm not thin enough. I'm not impressive enough. I don't have this job title. I don't have enough money. I need to work on myself and then I can date. And it really has to do with self-love because they're like, I'm not lovable yet. I have to make these changes. And then sometimes people are maximizers and they have unrealistic expectations of their partners. And I'm sure you know people like this where they're like, well, he was great. But if I could take his looks plus his body plus his ambition, then I would have this perfect person. Oh, I just have to keep searching. And they think there's this eventual

perfect person that they'll meet and they get so, so caught up in that that they don't realize, well, nobody's perfect. Everyone has a set of problems. You get to choose which set of problems. And then the last type is the romanticizer who has unrealistic expectations of relationships. And they're the ones who are always thinking about the soulmate, love at first sight. I don't want to use the apps. I want something more romantic. And they get very caught up in the story as opposed to understanding that relationships are messy and you have to build them with someone and it's not really about the rom-com version of love. I have friends that fit in every single one of those categories.

As you were speaking, I was like, I know all these people. Yes. Oh, my God. You're so, you're so wise. Tell me about your friends. So they fall into each of these categories. It's just so interesting hearing, like, watching my friends date. Because I've been with my husband since we, I was 18.

Wow. I know. So long. So I never date. really like I it was him and then that was and now I'm married and I have a kid and that's that so but but watching my friends date and particularly like this time of our lives where like I've got a kid and some of them are still you know like single and whatever and watching people date I find it it's so weird to me because I

have nothing to offer them I can't help I don't know like so it's really I don't know but it's so interesting being able to understand them better like hearing you describe the different ways that people operate in that way and particularly I find I think well there's two things I want to talk about the first one being the hesitator because I hate that the

self-doubt and I feel like that's a familiar thing for so many women and then the second one being the maximiser because all I can hear in my head is the ick and people talking about the ick and the ick and how many love stories have just been ended with like someone tying their

shoelaces up or sneezing too loudly or whatever it is, in your opinion, which is the most common and also which is the easiest to kind of pull yourself out from, undo. Yeah. So I would say when I was doing my research for my books, that's before I worked at Hinge, I worked with a lot of maximizers. And I think that kind of makes sense. That's the kind of person who would seek out coaching, right?

someone who's like, well, I just want to plan and I want to search and I want to find it and Logan's coaching is going to be part of that. So I would say a lot of my clients were maximizers, especially in the Bay Area where I live, like a lot of like engineers and tech people and product managers that are very much go-getters. So I had a lot of those clients. And then I had fewer hesitators because a hesitator who's not dating is less likely to sign up for coaching. But now that I, you know, my book's been out there for a while and like I think over 100,000 people have taken my quiz. It's actually more balanced and a lot of people are hesitators. I would say maybe the rarest is romanticizer. That's the one that I don't see as much. So I would say I see a lot of maximizers and a lot

of hesitators. I have a question and I could be completely barking at the wrong tree here, but do you think that online dating has bred more maximizers because of this, I guess maybe like this sense, this feeling of like abundance and also combine that with we kind of like we're generation, is it generation why? Like we can get what we want when we want it, especially with the internet. Do you think that's kind of like online dating has has like fueled that people thinking, well, I'll just keep swiping for someone better, for someone better. Like I'll keep going until I get the perfect person. Yeah. And it's actually detrimental to them. You know, I have a chapter in my book. That's called Why Dating is Harder Now Than Ever Before, and you can tell your mom I said that.

And I really think about how a lot of society in general has created that feeling. So, you know, we recently had Black Friday and Cyber Monday and all of these times when people are searching for deals. And like this morning, I'm literally Googling like Best Winter Gloves. And then I'm reading all these review of gloves. And then I'm like, oh, well, do I care if I can use my phone while wearing the gloves? And it's kind of this sense of what researchers call relation shopping. which is shopping for a partner as if they were a product.

So as if you were looking for gloves and you were saying, how expensive are they? How warm are they? Do they have the ability to use your phone during them? And sort of instead of calling it relationshiping, which is the process of getting into a relationship. And so I think society in general

has really helped, not maybe helps as a wrong word. Society in general has really led to this feeling of like, I can always get something better, I can always trade up, what's the new iPhone, what's the new drink at Starbucks? And so I think we have a mentality of there's always the right answer and I can just research my way to it. And that's what I find with maximizers. And so this will happen to me with clients all

the time where they come to me and they'll say, I know exactly what I want. I have a spreadsheet that analyzes every person I've ever dated. I just need your help finding somebody that has these qualities. And they're so confident in that. And then I try to talk to them and say like, hey, you've actually dated a bunch of people like that. It hasn't worked out. Maybe that's not the right combination for you. And so really helping them understand that you think you know what you want, but you might be wrong.

And it's possible that what you're looking for is completely different from what will make you happy as long term because what will make you happy as long term, you haven't dated someone like that yet. And so I'm really a fan of people dating against their type or exploring different types of people because I think people just get so caught up and like, I know what I want. I just have to find it and it's like, well, actually, maybe you need to expand your horizons a little bit and then see what kind of person makes you happiest. With the abundance of maximizes that this culture breeds, I imagine, and again, as we've just established, I have no authority

to even speculate on this, but I imagine that makes it actually more of a hostile environment for the hesitators. Like if you're already feeling quite self-conscious or insecure or like you don't have the confidence to go out and date, does it make, does the maximizers and the amount of maximizers make it harder for the hesitators to even try? Because I imagine if I, if I felt like I were being perceived consistently and never measuring up and I kept meeting all of these types of people, it would not my confidence. Do you find that maximizers make hesitators more hesitating? Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I think part of that would be like, do we think that when you go on a date,

you know what the other person is like? I think maybe like a maximizer isn't sharing, oh, here's how I'm measuring you against somebody else. I think for the hesitator, the main thing that makes them a hesitator is that they're just not dating at all. And so once they're going on a date with a maximizer, like I would just be proud of the hesitator for putting themselves out there. And that's some of the most exciting part of my work is when I take someone from like

zero to one. like you're not dating at all to now you're dating and that's really fulfilling for me because I'm like look like you'll never be perfect you'll never have the perfect profile that there's no such thing as that and instead let's focus on how to make you the best possible person that you are and then keep going from there and it's like have an eight out of ten profile like start from there see what happens and I think they get so caught up like well I couldn't possibly date now because I don't have the perfect pictures it's like well start with what you have and we can improve over time and So it's kind of taking you out of that black and white thinking of, like,

I'm either not ready or I'm ready and say, like, we're all works in progress and let's have you start dating. You talked about the most satisfying and exciting part for you being getting people from zero to one. If somebody is listening and they are at zero, what advice or steps would you recommend that they took to get themselves to one? Yeah, great question. So for hesitators, I would give them a pep talk and I would say, nobody's perfect. You don't have to reach this perfect outcome of 100% ready and then be ready to date. That doesn't exist for anyone. I want you to start dating now. And here are some steps that you could take. So first of all, if you're not, if you don't have a profile on Hinge, I would make

one. And so I would take the steps of just downloading Hinge, getting six photos. Here are some good tips for photos. So your first photo should be a clear headshot. This is what your face looks like. no filters, no sunglasses, then you want to have at least one photo of you doing an activity that you love, you with friends and family, just show us that you have an active social life and kind of paint a picture for us of your life. And you want to have varieties. You don't have six pictures of you and your best friend or six pictures of you and your dog, like different pictures that show different parts of who you are. And then you have the ability to write these prompts. So that's a chance to show us what's your personality like, what's important to you,

what would dating you be like? And so I would fill those out in a way that feels specific. to you. So avoid some of the cliches. And you can Google, you know, hinge app cliches or ask your friends. But there's certain things that people write. Like, I'm overly competitive about everything. And that kind of turns people off because they're like, oh, you didn't put that much effort in. And so avoiding cliches, being specific and showing both a humorous side and a vulnerable side. And so just getting the app downloaded and starting to date. And from there, I would say, be compassionate with yourself. You're not going to be the best conversationalist in the beginning. you're going to make some mistakes, you're going to be rejected, and just kind of owning that

similar to applying for your dream job or anything else in life, things that are worth doing require taking risks and possibly being rejected. And so really understanding that you are not born knowing how to date, you're not born being a good dater, and that instead of giving up and saying, oh, I suck at this, I don't want to do it anymore, saying, this is a skill. If I learned guitar, I wouldn't be amazing at guitar the first time I picked it up. And so really just owning that it's a process and that if you really want to find someone and you want to get to that end state of being in a relationship, you are going to have to put yourself out there and go through these ups and downs. And so for the hesitator, it's really about being on dates, understanding that

there's no such thing as being 100% ready, having a profile that's good enough and you can improve it over time, and really just being easy on yourself and saying I'm learning. And this helps me get closer to my goal. I love that. I love that advice. And essentially just be a bit kind of to yourself, right? Which is what kind of what you're saying. Exactly. Because I think that hesitators really are so hard on themselves. I have a question that is a little bit random, but going, if you don't mind me asking, going back to talking about like our types and like what we perceive as our types, I heard that the first person that we fall in love with, that kind of wires our brain to look for someone and something similar to kind of replace that

or recreate that? Is that true? Do we end up searching for like the first person that we fall in love with or a different version of them? I've heard versions of that and then I've also heard the opposite. It's like if you date this person and everybody else is in reaction to it. I've heard the same thing about people and their parents and all of that stuff. So I would say like a lot of this stuff around relationships, you can find one theory and then you can find the exact. act opposite theory. And that's one of the reasons why I like the attachment theory stuff so much because I'm like, this really just has been reproduced so many times over the last 60 years. This is very reliable. But what I would say, kind of the root of your question is,

we do develop these patterns. So if we get, if we are anxiously attached and we date someone who's avoidant, we think that love is chasing somebody. Like we're not like, oh, oh, I always tend to date people who I chase. It's like, no, love equals the chase. And if you're avoiding and attached and you've dated people who are anxiously attached, you think love equals somebody smothering me. And so it's like your whole version of this entire world of romantic relationship is love is this thing. And then when you break out of that pattern, you're like, oh, there was another way.

It didn't have to be like this. And so I do think that our early experiences really impact us, whether it's our self-esteem, whether it's how open we are, whether we trust people. I'm sure that we all know people that are not putting themselves out there because they've been cheated on or somebody has really betrayed them. And so it's one of these things where it's like dating is like a garden where each time you have a relationship with somebody, you're planting a seed and then that seed is growing and flowering in your garden. And then your dating life is that whole garden altogether. It's not like each time you move on to a new plot of land. And so you are a culmination of the different relationships you've had.

And that's why I love working with younger people because I'm like, if I can help you. prevent that traumatic situation in college or I can help you choose better matches from the beginning. I would love for you to have this garden that has less trauma in it and more relationships that really helped you become who you want to be. Going back to the attachment style stuff, do you believe, it would be interesting if you had a minute to explain where the research showed and where it stems from in scientists' opinions, but also if with that in mind, you can change it yourself and if you can rewrite your attachment style as an adult. Sure, yeah, I can get into all of that. So the best book on this is called Attached,

and it's basically understanding how the science of attachment theory can help adult romantic relationship. So I would highly recommend that book. There's also another book called Hold Me Tight that's really good about all of this. So I'm sort of borrowing from all of that. So the origin of this research comes from actually research with babies. So there was a guy named John Bolby who did this research in the 60s. And so what he would basically do is he would have the primary caregiver, which at that time was always a mom, come into a laboratory with the baby. So imagine it's a lab that's set up kind of like a little children's play area. And he would have the mom come in and play with the baby in the area and then leave the room and measure what happened to the baby.

And so they saw different things happen to the baby. So some of the babies would cry a bunch when the mom left. And then when the mom would come back in, the mom would pick up the baby and the baby would still cry. And those are the anxiously attached babies. It's like, I got upset when you left. And even when you're back, I don't feel better because you might leave again. I need to be near you because I don't trust that you won't abandon me. Then they had babies where the mom would leave the room.

The baby wouldn't cry. When the mom came back in, the baby would ignore the mom. But they knew from other measures that the baby was really upset. They just weren't showing it. And those are the avoid and attached babies where it's like, I can't trust you. So I'm not going to show that I care about you because I'm afraid that you be here for me, so I'm not going to get close to you. And then there's the securely attached babies where when the mom would leave, the baby would cry, the mom would come back in, the mom would

pick up the baby and the baby would stop crying. And those are the securely attached ones because it's like, well, I did get upset when you left, but now you're back, so I feel fine. And so this research was really done for a long time, not with romantic relationships, but with understanding what is the role that the primary caregiver gives to children. And so it was like the way that the mother interacts, the way that the primary caregiver interacts, is impacting kind of this child's ability to take risks or feel safe or all of those things. And then over the years, that's been applied to romantic relationships. I don't want anyone to take away the message of like, my mom messed me up. And if only my mom had done this, I'd be in a relationship. It's honestly much more complicated than

that. But I think the basis of it is in this child research. And then the application of it over the years has been to romantic relationships. And I think the fact that so many of us relate to it and can say, like, I was like that, here's how it changed, just kind of reinforces, I think, how meaningful it is. And then in terms of people changing it. So one way is dating a secure partner because that can help you break your pattern. And around 50% of daters are securely attached. So you might think, oh, that's pretty good.

I can find someone. But the caveat is that many of them are already in relationships and they don't get out of them. So the pool is a lot of avoidant and anxious people. But you don't have to be worried because there are things that you can do on your own. So if you're anxiously attached, a big thing to do is self-soothing. And so I'm sure we've all had this experience where you are texting somebody and they stop responding and you kind of spiral and go into the danger zone and you think about all the things that are going

wrong. What can you do instead? Can you distract yourself? Can you text somebody else? Can you go for a walk? Can you go to the movies where you can't use your phone? Really saying, like, I know what it's like when I go to the danger zone and I send texts or calls that I don't want to, how can I prevent that from happening? And so really learning what your

triggers are and then taking control of your behavior and saying, yes, what I want to do is text them a hundred times. I'm not going to do that because it doesn't create a good outcome and I'm scaring them off or bothering them. I'm going to do something else. And so it's kind of owning your behaviors and keeping yourself out of the danger zone. For the avoid and attach daters, it's also about understanding that it's safe to bring somebody in and get close to someone. So if you have that sleep over on a Saturday night and then on Sunday morning the person hasn't left your house yet instead of kind of exploding at them and saying hey I'll call you an Uber what are you going to leave it's maybe just stating your needs like it was so fun hanging out with you I'd love to see you again

soon I actually have a bunch of work I'm going to prep for my job tomorrow so you know I'm going to head out soon to go to a coffee shop and work or whatever it is and so for the avoided people it's about understanding that they have a natural tendency to push people away and that might even be the ick like finding all these flaws with people as a reason to not be with them and that instead what they should focus on is how can I get more comfortable being closer to people amazing can we just quickly can I just ask you about the ick is it a real thing is it a real thing or is it kind of just something we make up in our heads to I don't know is there any I don't think there can't be any science behind the ick right yeah I mean I think the it has gotten trendy in the last few

years because it's really funny, right? Like, people want to have funny stories to post on TikToks. People love date entertainment. It's kind of like, oh my gosh, you'll never believe what this girl did on my date, right? Like, you get social capital for sharing these stories. So I understand why it has taken off. And then what I think happens with modern dating is that people just take each other for granted. And so it's like, oh, this guy was perfect except for the fact that he did this one thing and

it gave me the ick and now I'm not going to see him again. If you didn't have as many options, you might be like, well, I didn't like that thing about him, but I'll certainly still see him again. And so I think it becomes an excuse for pushing someone away. And I've been doing some writing on this recently, which is that I think that people that talk about the ick a lot really need to understand the difference between a deal breaker and a pet peeve. So a deal breaker would be a fundamental reason why you can't be with someone. Like, we're of different religions and we care about that and we want to raise our kids that way. Or like, I have asthma and you're a smoker. Like, that's a real reason not to be with someone.

And people get confused with the pet peeve, which is like my preference. would be that you didn't do this thing, but it's not a reason that it can't be in a long-term relationship with you. And so the work that I try to do with people is helping them differentiate between pet peeves and deal breakers and understanding that a lot of the issues that they have are more of pet peeves and that they could get over them. And so for people that talk with the ick all the time, or they have a friend who talks about the ick all the time, I would just say, try to explore what's underneath that and are you using this as a reason to not get close to someone? I guess something we haven't even talked about and I guess kind of comes in from

the ick is sexual attractiveness and sometimes I hear the ick spoken about a lot like he gave me the ick and I just couldn't fancy him anymore because I don't know he did something completely inane like tripped over or I don't know it's so unfair um but do you think with that in mind you can like rustle up sexual attraction or no No, like, how important is that initial spark, that initial chemistry, the initial sexual attraction, or scientifically in your experience, is it a slower burner? Should it be a slower burner, trying to find that attractiveness? Yeah, so my views on this are that if there's no attraction at all, it's really hard for that to grow. So if you meet someone and you're not initially attracted at all, it would be pretty hard for that zero attraction to turn into something.

but what people get confused on is people in the middle. So it's like if I meet you and I'm a little bit attracted to you but not as attracted to you as I was to someone else, that is a chance for it to grow. And so it's like it can't go from zero to something, but lots of people can go from a little bit to something more. And I think an issue that I see in modern dating is that so many people cut it off too early and they're like, well, I wasn't initially over the moon attracted to him. I didn't feel this initial spark and so I don't want to see him again.

and so a lot of the work that I do with people is help them notice the situations where there is some interest. And so I have this tool called the post date eight, and it's eight questions that people can ask themselves after a date that help them tune into things like, how did I feel around the person, what side of me did they bring out, did I feel curious about them? And the goal is that you might see, oh, actually, like,

you know, maybe I wasn't the most attracted to them, but there was a lot of stuff about them I'm interested in and I want to see them again. Or I felt terrible around them and I don't want to see them. them again. But it's helping you tune into how you feel because I think a lot of people have a lot of separation between what's going on with them and the decisions that they're making. So like I'm sure you know people where they're dating someone who's not nice to them, but they're like, he's so good on paper. It's like, well, who cares about the paper if when you're with them you feel bad about

yourself? And so helping people tune in more to how they're feeling. Yeah. And I guess that's actually that's so important for just like the average person who is dating to really have like evaluate and assess, rather than make, not even rash decisions, but like decisions, but not necessarily based on, or I guess without exploring, like, why they're making these decisions. And I feel like, I feel like pinpointing your attachment style must be so important for this. Totally. So when I'm thinking about hinge and people getting ready for dating in the new year, one of the best things that they could do is really audit their dating lives and say, where am I now? Where do I want to go what's been holding me back. And so they might talk to a friend or a therapist or their journal

and just say things like, okay, so I consistently seem to choose people like this. Then they end up breaking up with me. Here's what ends up happening. Or I choose people like this and then I break up with them. Why is that happening? And just getting a little bit clearer about what's going on and then saying, like, does that feel good? Does that not feel good? What do I want to do instead? And I think that people sometimes feel like, oh, if I just keep dating, I'll figure it out. But I work with people in their 70s who haven't figured it out. And so it's not just a matter of time. It's also a matter of really being self-reflective and saying, who am I? What do I want? What's happening right now? How can I make different choices? Like, it's in those moments of self-reflection that you really

get a chance to make different changes. And so with my clients, some of the most satisfying moments are when they say, not, oh, I have a boyfriend, which of course I'm happy about, but when when they say, I was dating this guy, he wasn't treating me that well, I could tell that there were red flags. I didn't ignore them and I broke up with him. I'm like, yes, that's a huge win because running away from red flags is a really important part on the process, on the way to finding this great relationship. Just going back quickly to the chapter in your book about modern dating being harder than ever, and we can tell a mom's that. Why do you think that is? like do you think we've kind of created quite uh beyond obviously we you touched on it before

with this kind of like maximiser like abundance there's always something better black friday attitude to everything do you think we and i often wonder this just in general with our humanity on social media do you think we slightly dehumanize each other i don't know like with hookup culture i don't know with social media like is romance of the like days gone by like is that gone like taking someone out to the dances like i don't know like my grandparents met at an actual dance i know but then also they legally like couldn't get divorced so i don't know you know like i don't know i guess you look at every stage you can look at every stage like where do you think the like modern landscape is for dating compared to where it was and why

do you think it's so much harder now yeah so i should say that there's things that i actually think are easier now. So, for example, if you're part of the LGBTQ plus community or you're over 55, if you're one of these groups that in general has trouble finding somebody who is single and would be interested in you. And like, you know, if you're gay and you go to a club, you don't know who's also gay and who would be interested in you. And like, so for certain groups, it's much, much easier to find someone. And I think the evidence supports this. So since 2017, the majority of couples that meet and are in successful relationships met online. So obviously this is helping many people.

I think that we are in this weird stage of technology where people have personas and we sort of get wrapped up in what's the message that I'm sending on my Instagram or what in my story show, does my life seem cool enough? And so I think that there is a lot of projecting that people do around who they are. And I think that we get in the way, that gets in the way because it's like, am I meeting you or am I meeting your online persona? The good news is that if you're using online dating, once you meet, it's still the same as if you had met through a matchmaker. It's still like once you meet, now the date is up to you. And so the app is the online matchmaker getting you

that connection. But once you're the two of you at a bar, the two of you going for a walk, it's just about the two humans in front of you. And so I think the more that we can think about the apps is just a way to meet someone and get off the date versus all of like the messaging for months and all of that, I think that really slows people down. And so in general, I always suggest that people get off the apps as quickly as possible, get onto a date, and that's really where they're going to make the most progress. Can I ask how, I've got so many questions, I'm like, aware we have to let you go soon, but I've got so many questions. Can I ask how you, for your clients, how you help them reframe rejection? Because online dating particularly comes with a lot of rejection,

which can be painful, which can be, I imagine, a deterrent from continuing to date. How do you help them reframe it and push past it and just keep going? Yeah, it's a really great question. And I think it's so appropriate for this time of the year and for Gen Z in particular. So all the research that I've been doing with Gen Z, a big thing is like, I want to be in a romantic relationship and I want a partner, but I'm afraid of rejection. And so that stuff is hard. But I just try to give them like a pretty overall pep.

talk around what rejection is. It's like, if you're not getting rejected, then are you not going after what you want? And sometimes I think it's easier to talk to people about careers versus dating because it somehow feels like less personal, less triggering things like that. And so I would just say to them, like, if you only ever took a job where a LinkedIn recruiter messaged you or, you know, your friend said, hey, there's an opening at this job. Are you going to get your dream job that way? Probably not. You're going to get your dream job by figuring out, what do I love, what's my passion, how can I go after what I want? How can I email this person? How can I ask for a favor? How can I take a risk? And really understanding that when you want something, you need to take risk to get it. And part of taking risk is risking rejection. And if you can just own that rejection and say, great, I got rejected today. That's a sign that I'm going after what I want. That's a sign that I'm trying hard. And so it's like, I do think rejection hurts. It's really hard to be told I don't want you. It's really hard to be told, you know, I slept with you and I don't want to see you again.

I'm not invalidating that all of that stuff is painful. I'm instead saying if you think about dating as a journey and this as a necessary part of that journey, you sort of take some of the sting out of it. And so, have you ever heard that expression that's like, if you've never missed a flight, you're spending too much time at the airport? Yeah, I love that. No, but I love it. You get it.

It's basically saying, like, if you don't want to be spending hours at the airport, occasionally you're going to cut it too close and you're going to miss a flight. And that's the risk you're willing to take to mostly not spend too much time at the airport. Well, that's how I feel about this. It's like if you've never been rejected and you're probably not aiming high enough. And so for people, I would just say, yes, rejection sucks. It really hurts. But it's a muscle that you can build up. It's a, you know, skin on your, it's like skin that you can build up over times that you get thicker skin and it's not as hard for you. And just kind of saying people that are in these great relationships that

you admire, they put themselves out there and they risk things along the way. And that's a necessary part of getting what you want. And so the sooner that people can experience rejection and understand that it hurts but you'll move on, the more that they will be ready to be in these great relationships. That's such a cool reframe. Yeah, I love that. That's also going straight in my back pocket to tell Alex next time we try to make me get to the airport like five hours early. Yes. So funny in couples. There's always one, there's often one that wants more and more time at the airport and one that's like, come on, who wants to sit down? Let's just board the flight as soon as we get there. Can I ask you a question I'm just really intrigued about

on a personal level? Sure. Do anxious people ever, do they commonly attract anxious people because I could not be in a relationship with another anxious person? It would be an absolute mess, a state. Yes. So, two of us, two of me. God. Um, that's exactly what ends up happening. So usually anxious, anxious doesn't happen because they annoy each other and it's also like not the fun of the chase. And then avoid and avoidant doesn't happen that. often because neither of them's really willing to put in the effort. I feel a bit sorry for the secured people because they get lumbed with all the shit. Did secure people find secure people?

Or do they just, is it just there cross to bear that they end up with people? People like me. I know what you, I know what you mean. But it's honestly like they're secure and they can make somebody else be secure. So it's not like, oh, I have to deal with all this drama. It's like they're actually bringing out the best in that other person. And so you shouldn't feel too bad for them sometimes. secure and secure wind up together, but it's almost like secure as like the universal donor,

if you know about like blood types and everything, where it's like they can fit with a lot of people. So it's almost like, oh, well, this anxious person has a lot of baggage. That's hard. It's like, well, this secure person is bringing out the best side of them. So they're really seeing the best in that person. And so I understand the root of your question, but I would actually just say in general, secure people are able to make those relationships work by helping somebody see like, hey, that's not a healthy habit. Let's try something else. Or like, I like you. I want to see you again. I'm not going to play a game. And so they're creating a lot of aha moments for the other people, but it's not at a cost to them, I would say. As soon as we finish

this call, I'm running upstairs to my husband and explaining to him, this is why I am the way that I am. And bless you for being so secure and patient. Oh, yes. I totally feel that way about my husband too. And yes, so I would recommend those books that I mentioned detached and hold me tight. And I think for anyone listening who is excited about this, there's so much in the field of attachment theory that's really, really helpful. And if you've been stuck for a long time, getting familiar with this could be the thing that gets you from where you are now to the next stage of dating. Amazing. Thank you so much. It's been so cool to talk to you. So cool. Yeah. It was so fun meeting both of you. Thanks for being so passionate and excited about all of this. And I'm really glad that

you're bringing this information to all of your listeners. Thank you so much. Me too. I think there's going to be a lot of lightbulb moments for a lot of people listening as well. I do too. I'm hoping that we're going to see like a spike in Hinge downloads and then in about like a year's time, a whole load of saved the dates to, should I delete that Times Hinge wedding invitations. Yay. Okay. I want that too. Great. Well, thank you so much and so good to meet you. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much, Logan. Thank you. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.