Should I Delete That? - We need to talk about the housing crisis with Kwajo

Episode Date: July 2, 2023

This week on the podcast, Em and Alex are joined by social housing activist Kwajo Tweneboa. Kwajo grew up in social housing, and his family were housed in inhabitable conditions: unsafe spaces riddled with mould, cockroaches, mice, leaks and damp. Kwajo’s father was diagnosed with cancer and, whilst being nursed in this environment, passed away from his illness. After receiving little to no help in making their home habitable, Kwajo decided enough was enough, and gathered evidence from over 500 tenants that lived on his estate; this enabled them to shame their housing association into finally carrying out the works that were needed. From there, Kwajo has been continuing the fight, shaming landlords and housing associations across the UK into providing safe, sanitary homes for all. Follow Kwajo on Instagram and Twitter @kwajohousingFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

People ask me, oh, what do you do? And I'm just saying I'm a massive pain in the arm. But I am and it's good because I think, yeah, you need to keep them on their toes. Hello and welcome back to Should I Delete That, I'm Alex Light. And I'm then Clarkson. How you doing? I'm good. awkward to tell you it happened last Friday it's the worst it's the worst thing I've ever

telling my life oh my god go oh I still I still gag when I think about it okay so we went for a nursery tour we went to go and look at a nursery for my baby yeah loved it love the woman running it like just good vibe so great did the tour had to dash had to had to go we had to go yeah so I was like okay bye the woman lent out her arms and I thought well that's very friendly for a, you know, like we're just in a nursery tour, but all right, so I got in there and I gave her a big hug and I realised the second too late that she was not hugging me. She was reaching to press the little green button to open the door behind me. Now, luckily for me, I married a knight in shining armour who saw the situation and lent in

also for a hug to make it look less weird and like we were just huggers so he gave her a hugged too and then she was like oh okay bye and then we left that is like that video that we've put on the Instagram account

there should be that Instagram account when the waiter bends over the goes over the table to grab something can the girl it's her birthdays and she thinks he's hugging her and he's like okay If she'd have made a noise It would have been

Okay That's so gross I know And the worst thing is We love the nursery so much That we have to send I don't know if you can I don't know if you can

No we have to We have to I will suffer every day For the rest of my life Because she has to go to that nursery But oh my God And there's another parent There was a prospective mother

Another one Looking watching this sad sad situation I hope she doesn't remember you. Oh, she will. Oh, she will. I didn't hug her. I didn't hug her. I should have hugged her. I should have just, I should have doubled down and hugged her too and all the kid.

Oh, God. Anything awkward from your side to make you feel better? My awkward is remarkably similar to yours, actually. It was, we've been in the studio this week. Yes, this week. We've been in the studio this week. And one of our guests, I won't say who, one of our guests walked in and I was standing by the toilet, which is right by,

the front door. So I was taken sort of caught off guard by her being there. So I don't know. I just, I feel like I didn't have time to like compose myself. She held out a hand to meet me, greet me. But I thought, no, I did. It was too late for me to see the hand and I went in for a hug. And she, she literally went, oh, and kind of step back a little bit. And I was like, oh. So I stepped back from the hug, mid hug, hadn't done. touched her yet but arms were fully like hug I stepped back when of course sorry held out my hand but at that point she was like no sorry hug let's hug so she was halfway through and as out you know arms outstretched as I was there with my hand out and I was like I am so sorry like I'm just

so sorry and it was horrible it was horrible and all of that happened well we were just in there I didn't know that you're dying next door I know I felt bad for her because then she looked so awkward and I felt so awkward and she was having to come in and do this interview now and I was like well I'm a bitch what's wrong with us I know I love how similar they are do you have anything good I do go go go go go go no go go go go go go I've been cooking um what I know I've been actually cooking properly I meant to tell you I've had a DM from a girl saying she also cooks her peas the same way as you and she wanted you to feel supported thank you and then She said another DM saying that's the most boring DM I've ever said.

No, I love her for it. Thank you so much. So obviously I did the Hello Fresh thing. And I think it's increased my confidence and just made me realize that I can do a lot more than I think I can. As long as I just Google instructions. Last night, I made special mashed potato and fish. I thought you were going to say special K, so I'm impressed. What's a special?

I miss a special okay. What's a special mashed potato? mashed potato with onions, leeks, peas, sweet corn and edamama beans. It's so good. You look disgusted. Why do you look disgusted? I don't like onion. Okay, well, okay, fine. Forget that. But the rest of it. Because leeks in the onion family. But the rest of it sounds good. Right? Yeah, that's great. Yeah, good for you. I'm proud of you. And I cooked a piece of fish. So that's my good. So that's my good is that I went to Dublin. We finally went, we took Arlo to the motherland.

Well, to the fatherland to where her dad's from. Alex is Irish. Boy, Alex. Very confused. so we went back we went we went to his home which we haven't done yet since she was born and um it was so nice we got like her family and friends got to meet her and we we tried doing a night out um didn't go didn't go great um she was like we did three songs at blur and then she was like you can't back now yeah um but just where are you so we came back but it was so fine it was a really good practice because obviously by the time you're listening to it Alex's surprise 30th my Alex will I will have pulled it off yes so so excited so excited but obviously oh they can't come to that so last week was a bit of a training we've learned our lesson we've got

new teats on the bottle she's taking them this week excellent vibes exactly excellent indeed so we're going to go again on um on saturday we're going out so doubler was great knit like and yeah good thank god we had that practice and now we're going out on the this Saturday. So it's all good. I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm living. Love it. I love that. Oh my God. Thank you. Thanks so much. Your energy is good. Agree. Anything bad? Let's ruin it. Let's, let's bring this energy right down. My bad, my bad is that I'm struggling to find motivation to shoot content, you know, which is difficult when you're, a lot of your job is to shoot content. In fact, probably

arguably most of your job is to shoot content. I'm really finding it hard. I don't know I'm struggling to find the motivation. And I don't want to blame the heat because it's not that hot. That will irritate you. But yeah. But yeah, do you not go through those periods when you're just like, I just... I went through a casual nine month period where I just did nothing.

Like, yeah, I completely get it. It's really hard to be like, you know, on it. On, all the time. But that's showbiz, baby. I think it's like jazz hands. It is showbiz. My sister works with me, and she's just like, it's so simple to her. She's like, come on, let's just shoot this today.

And I'm like, I've got a mental block. I've got a mental block and I can't. Anyway, what's your bad? Maybe it's because I'm using too much energy with cooking. I don't know. I'll work it out. Probably. Probably.

Probably. Go back to being cooked for. My bad is that I faked town last night. It doesn't look too bad, does it? It doesn't look too good. And I'm on my way to shoot the sweaty Betty. I've got probably the biggest shoot. with my career on Monday.

I've got Alex's birthday tomorrow and I was like, I need to be golden and glowing. So I fake tanned, which last week went pretty well. I did it before Dublin. Again, practice run. Use a Sanchapea plastic tan,

which never does me wrong. Yep. Absolutely love it. Agreed. But I'm assassinating my bed sheets. I think it's because I'm sweating. So I do it before bed and then I sweat. Obviously, I can't do my titties

because otherwise my baby will look like Homer Simpson. So I just have to like kind of great. it down and then I feed her lying down so she's lying next to me and then it's like she's trying to touch my body and I'm like that's so cute get off me because you are going to go a funny funny colour um so it's like quite it's quite the sweaty stressful process it is and the pillow's gone a bit orange yeah because I think my arm's got sweaty and I'm annoyed about that because I've got white company bed sheets and they're expensive um so I'm just praying for vanish oxy action to do its work do it in the morning do it in the morning and then just

It's hard with a baby Because I want to carry her all day Yeah It's the longest time that she's down for So I touch her the least So if I'm wearing pyjamas I can just sort of like slip a boob out And then we don't touch

Yeah Yeah okay I get you Oh that's yeah that's rough I've got to sacrifice something It's the baby It's the baby or the sheets So naturally I'm going to sacrifice the baby Yeah I mean I was

I didn't want to say it But White Company sheets are really nice Yeah exactly Oki-dokey, we have an amazing guest today. Yeah, we have a really important interview today with Cuejo Tweneboa, who is a social issues campaigner from South London. We spoke to him about the social housing crisis in Britain at the moment,

something that he has first-hand experience of and something that he has subsequently done a lot of campaigning for. It was really shocking and at times quite a hard listen, but I think it is so important because there is, thanks to the media, this level of ignorance and apathy when it comes to what is a huge, huge crisis. So we're really pleased to be able to bring this episode to have had this conversation

and we hope you take something from it. So thank you so much for listening. Hi, Croyo. Hello, hello. Thanks very much for joining us today. Fresh off of Good Morning Britain. Yes, yeah, this morning. Yeah, yeah.

Bit of a downgrade. Thanks for being here, nonetheless. Not all. Not all. It's like going down a slide. Yeah. No, it's really, it's really, really good to be here. Thank you. Thanks for coming. You are a social issues campaigner.

Yes. Demanding urgent reform in public sector housing. You've done a lot of brilliant work and I'm sure we're going to get into all of that. But it would be great to start at the very beginning if that's all right with you. Yes. Yeah. And it would be great to know what led you to this work. Yeah. So I've grown up in social housing and with my sisters, my dad my mom also lives in social housing and we were living in absolute poor conditions

I mean I think it was around I remember Grenfell so it was before Grenfell we moved into our temporary accommodation and it was fall into absolute bits I mean it was a converted car garage it still had the garage door on and it was filled with dampen mould

we barely had any furniture literally two beds and a wooden chair and it was filled with mould mould grown into the bed, more mould growing into what you could call a wardrobe. If you saw it, you'd probably argue otherwise. And we had a shower which was the size, literally, of a cupboard. It was a broom cupboard converted into a shower, basically. And there was a toilet shoved in there just in a sink too.

And it was falling into absolute bits. I remember during winter, the pipes became so cold that it froze and burst and flooded the bedroom. and destroyed our school work and stuff was on the floor, our books and whatnot, and it destroyed them, destroyed clothes and whatnot, and it was just absolutely poor. And then in 2018, we moved, we were given the option, basically, is we either move up to Luton or we take that garage was the option given to my dad at the time. And at the time, I was studying for my A-levels, my sister was studying for her GCSE, so she was in, we were both in our final years, and the only option our school was advising that we stay. And so that's what we did.

did and moved in there, finished my A-levels in their sisters doing our GCSEs in there, trying to study and whatnot. And then from there we moved into our permanent accommodation, which I'm still in now, which is in Mitchum, and it's on the Eastfield Estate. And as soon as we moved in there, I mean, it was full of disrepair and fall into bits, cockroaches, mice, damp mould, lights filled with water, a kitchen that was nearly 100 years old. I mean, the unit's so wet that you could probably put your hand through it. a bathroom which wasn't fit for use, poor security to the house.

I mean, there was one occasion actually, which I'd go on to where my dad was at home and someone tried to break in using a crowbar at the front door. Had they walked around the back, they would have been able to walk straight into the house because the back doors were broken, the back fence were broken. There was only a brick stopping it from being opened. And then my dad became ill. He was diagnosed with stage 1, esophageal cancer. That then progressed over the space of a year to stage 4.

At the time, we didn't realize how aggressive that cancer was, and he became very unwell. He walked around, was independent and whatnot, and went from that to being bedbound, fed through his stomach, because the tumour in his throat wasn't able to eat or even swallow his own saliva. He was vomiting every 10 minutes and being fed through his stomach three times a day by district nurses in those conditions. And we had complained, he had complained, and nothing was ever done. And he passed away in January 2020. And his funeral was in February 2020, and things went from bad to worse because on the day of his funeral, a leak then happened.

And it caused the partial collapse of our living room ceiling directly above where his hospital bed was. That was in February 2020. No one came out to deal with it, even after us complained about all the other issues until October of that year. When they did, they ripped the whole ceiling down, didn't tell us that it contained. It had asbestos containing material in it and left dust everywhere. And we thought, okay, it might be a week, two weeks, maybe three weeks before a ceiling's put back up. They said, no, you won't have a ceiling for Christmas. We've got no one available until the January the following year. So that's a year, right?

A year. So it was overwinter. It was basically over winter. Basically a year, yeah, since the leak happened, the ceiling then being put back up. And so that was fine. We allowed that to happen. And I had been complaining about all the other issues in their promise time after time that are going to come out and sort these issues. They never did.

And there was one point I worked across the road at the school, the secondary school that I used to go to, and I phoned them on my break. And I remember it was my break. And I spent more time at that school on the phone trying to get issues sorted in the house. And I did actually do my work. And I'm allowed to say that now. But the person on the phone was so dismissive, so rude, basically turned around and said, we've got no one available. Even after promising that they would come out at 8, I rang at 10.30 to find out why no one was there. So there was no one available and basically hung the phone up on me.

So I said at that point, it's not going to be me that calls you next. it's going to be a journalist. And that was the goal. I didn't know any journalists at the time. I didn't know where they were, where they lived, what sort of castles that were living in. It certainly wasn't in Mitchum, so I thought. And I decided to go into my house,

take pictures, tape videos, uploaded to social media, and went absolutely viral. And local journalists picked it up, did a story. And then my housing provider turned around and in their statement, which I'll never forget,

even after my dad had just passed away they said something along the lines of we're sorry that Cuejo feels as though him and his family haven't received the service that they deserve even after all of that and all of the pictures, all the images and whatnot

and to me that showed me they had no shame whatsoever and I was determined to shame them so I said fair enough if that's the get literally I remember thinking if that's the game they want to play and then after school that day I went around with two people that lived on my estate

and put a letter through every single door on the estate and knocked on doors speaking to people asking them to come forward basically if they're living in similar conditions too by the time I had done a full loop of the estate posting letters through and there's about 500 homes in the estate my phone was already blowing up

and it didn't stop for weeks people sending me videos people trying to call me sending pictures emails telling me how long they complained for there was one lady that knew my dad very well and I didn't know the conditions she were living in and she works two jobs in two different schools

in the morning she worked in a primary school in the evening she'll clean secondary school. I think three jobs at the time she was working. And she had been suffering with issues for 27 years. And at the time I was about 22. So that was longer than I had been alive. And it got so bad. She's in her 60s that she herself had to go to BNQ,

purchase cement. And she doesn't live on a ground floor, had to take it upstairs into her kitchen, mix it herself and try and fill holes to stop mice from coming in because our provider wouldn't deal with it themselves. They happened to be the largest provider. in, I believe, Europe, social housing provider in Europe. So it goes to show just how big the problems were.

And they were disgraced on ITV news. I worked with them for about two weeks on a like investigation that we were doing. And they went around people's homes and filmed. And it went out as a top story as essentially a slum estate because that's exactly what it was. And my provider was absolutely shamed into carrying out works, but didn't stop there. They own social housing, the local borough, all the social. social housing. So I went around to other estates and saw they were in the exact same conditions, only five minutes from my house and went back to the media. They did the same and they were

forced to spend millions on trying to upgrade the roofs and whatnot, not just on my estate, but in the local area. There's still issues there even today, even on my estate. And this is what, two years on since I started campaigning. But now people get in contact with me from up and down the country under different social housing providers, not even just social housing providers who are under private landlords too that are absolutely suffering in disgraceful, unsafe, unsanitary, uninhabitable conditions, yet they're forced to live in there and they have to pay rent for it every single month. And this in the sixth richest country in the world. Exactly. I'm so sorry for you losing your dad. And I'm so sorry for you that, and I don't want to

put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you didn't really get the chance to grieve. him properly. You hit the nail right on the head and yeah, that's why I thought to myself, you've taken that from me and my sisters. And at the time, I was very depressed. I was on medication. I've mentioned it before, but at the time I was very suicidal and they just didn't care about that whatsoever. And I thought they took that moment from us, which is a moment that no one would want taken from them, even the chief executive that works for that organisation. So I made a commitment that I was going to make or give them an ounce of what it is that they put us through by shame and disgracing them repeatedly and publicly

too. But you're completely right. We didn't have that opportunity to grieve. And I imagine it's an incredible incentive in that it obviously propelled you to do such good work but it's such a horrible situation that you've had to and like you say it's two years on how are you feeling now um well it's three years on so three years on from my dad passed away just over two years since i started campaigning but i mean there's days even like father's day was what two three days ago and that was difficult because you see everyone uploading pictures of their dads and whatnot or and um celebrating father's day and you're all it just brings back memories even birthdays,

Christmases and stuff. Or you come across pictures like I did on Father's Day that I hadn't seen in a very long time and I forgot it completely existed. And yeah, it brings it all back. I mean, people hear three years and think it's a very long time, it absolutely isn't because you remember it like it was yesterday and he became so ill, like so ill.

It was, I think, for everyone around him, difficult to even watch him that ill. And what made it worse was the fact, that he was living in those conditions and I do feel guilt for that because had I been in the position I'm in now, I may have been able to take him out of that but I wasn't and I think that's almost the satisfaction I get from the work that I'm doing now because I'm able to go around and sort of repay that by helping others but again nothing will sort of feel that whole that is there I think for anyone that loses a parent

and I'm sure it's there permanently your life just expands and grows around that situation I do hope though that because he died under these difficult circumstances that I don't know and again I don't want to put words in your mouth but like that taint his passing away

I hope that that can be transformed and you know you just remember the good things about him and remember the good yeah I guess but like you say it's only been three years Yeah, and I mean this campaigning has basically been going non-stop So I'm constantly talking about the same subject So but then there are times like

I do even now still have dreams Where he's well and it's like completely normal And there's been situations where we're even arguing in these dreams Like we were years ago So it's like those And then you wake up and you realise And he's no longer here But there's moments like that which are nice

Yeah I think it's a really important important to highlight as well, your age. You've done this. You've done so much at such a young age. Are you 24 now? 24 now, yeah. So I think I started, my dad passed away when I had, just after I turned 21. Which is a horrible time. I mean, there's no good time to lose a parent, but you're so, so young to lose your dad. And then so young to do what you've done. Like, it's just, it's so, and it's so frustrating that you're doing work that, unfortunately, I imagine feels like just unfinishable at the moment

in terms of the challenge in front of you but it is so remarkable the headway that you've made and the fact that you have you were able to like shame and I imagine the incentive that you had was so raw and you were so angry and it actually probably took that anger to make the change that you have which is so depressing that that's what it took

but what do you think I mean because I'd love to talk to you as not love to because it's horrible conversation but I think it's really important to mention Grenfell here because it feels like the government are being shamed in this in you know like because you did a documentary as well didn't you I did yeah for Channel 4 last year yeah so it's like you know there's these huge exposers there's this proof in front of everybody that it's just not acceptable

and then what happened at Grenfell is just abhorrent and you just can't believe that it's been seven years well it's now I have to remember So it was 2017. It was a sixth year anniversary this year. Six years. Yeah. And you can't believe that it's like still going on. Still no arrests. Still like. And so I wonder what you think going forward is will it continue requiring public shaming like this? Is it need constant exposure and constant? Or do you think that there is meaningful change that is capable of happening any other way? I think this constant shaming is working. And I think the work two of journalists, supporting this issue and realizing it's a problem that's not going away and keeping it in the

spotlight. Because ultimately, that's the pressure that's put on politicians. I mean, they hate when journalists are sniffing around and not just them, but any organisation, because bad PR is the most expensive thing, not just for an MP, as we've seen in the last few days, but also organisations too. Nothing is more expensive and detrimental for them. And I think it's going to take that constantly. I mean, in regards to Grenfell, one of the biggest shames of this country, I think, was the fact that that happened and 72 innocent men, women and children lost their lives prematurely for no reason of their own. And they went to bed one night and, unfortunately, expecting to wake up the next day and they didn't. You would have thought that would have been the absolute turning point needed. The fact that even one person died through no thought of their own, you would have thought that would be enough.

needed in order for legislation to be brought forward to make sure this never happens again. Systemic change, drastic change, and I often say had Grenfell been an office block in Canary Wharf and people, 72 individuals died in that, would it have taken so long for an inquiry to happen? Would it have taken so long for an investigation to happen? Would it have taken so long for individuals to receive justice? I come to the conclusion that no is the answer. It just so happens the people that are living in social housing in Grenfell, happened to be some of the most vulnerable and poorest of society,

and therefore they cared less about, which I think is absolutely wrong. And it's an absolute disgrace, I think, the fact that, what, six years on, myself and other campaigners are out here, shaming providers for the exact same thing those residents were complaining about just before they had died. That's really important to note, isn't it? Grenfell, and I don't think, I don't know if a lot of people know this, but before Grenfell, it wasn't, I mean, it was just some horrible event that,

looking at it from the outside, you just think, oh God, no one could have foreseen this, but people did foresee this. It was, there were, I don't know how many complaints there were. They were warned, not even just by residents in Grenfell. They were warned by professionals, even the government were warned by professionals that, and this isn't the first time that a fire has happened in a social housing block and then they had been warned that because of the materials and whatnot being used, there is a huge risk that there could be a detrimental, a massive loss of life if a fire were to happen in a towel block.

And I'm reading a book at the moment and one of the quotes which made the hair stand up on my arm was someone warning, I believe it was a government official, someone in charge, basically, that they're worried that people are going to die in a social housing block due to a fire because of the materials and whatnot being used and the fact that residents have been neglected. And that individuals reported to have turned around and said, well, show me the bodies. And that was before Grenfell. Was that a government minister or someone from the Social Housing Association? I believe they were government related. I believe they were government related.

Don't quote me on that, though, but there was someone senior and someone in charge that could have made systemic change or raised this issue. And they reported to have turned around and said, well, show me the bodies of those that have died. Because from what they've seen, no one has. Years later, we see that Grenfell happened in, in fact, 72 innocent individuals have died as a result. At least 72. Yes, I think that's an important point to make. I know we reference 72. Those are the individuals that we know of. But no doubt, I mean, I've been around estates, up and down the country. They could have been people in there that were undocumented, for example. There could have been people there that were visiting friends and family. There could have been people

there that came over on, I don't know, holiday, you name it, that had just been there but weren't actually noted down that, that died. I mean, someone actually said to me, when they hear the number 72, they think of 72 households and not actually the number, it doesn't represent the number of inhabitants in those households that they know have actually died. and I completely get, I do get that argument, but from what officials say, 72 individuals, and it should never have taken that. It really, it's partly why I remember watching it in that garage

that I was talking about early. I remember being stood there and watching it one morning just before I went to Sixth Form. And I remember waking up and just seeing a building burning, and it was like a drone image of it or a helicopter image, just going around the building. And at first I didn't really process what I was looking at. I just thought, oh, it's a building on fire.

I thought, oh, everyone must be out. Then I saw the headline that people are suspected to have died in it. And then I saw video footage on people's phones of individuals up at the window during the night, screaming for help while the fire was taking over the building on top floors, whatnot. And then you heard phone calls being made to the police and the fire service and people's sheer desperation, Facebook live streams and whatnot of people in their homes, speak to people, I will never forget where I was stood and the image of what it was that was seen at that time. And I don't think absolutely anyone should, because it was so horrific.

And that is why I believe they need justice. And this really has to be seen through six years on and the fact that hasn't happened is really not good enough. And it's not just the tower blocks. it's not just the cladding. Like, the lack of standardisation of, like, regulation means that it's not just the cladding that's an issue, but, like, you're seeing the problems within your own house, within the estate that you're in. Like, the problems occur across the board when it comes to these,

because I guess they're so unregulated. Is there anybody holding them to account in terms of regulation? Not really. I mean, we have the regulator for social housing at the moment, and we've got the housing ombudsman, but really nothing can change until legislation's brought in, which they're hoping to do either later this year or next year. So although regulations being brought out,

the answer to that really is no over the last few years. There hasn't been anyone holding these landlords, these people receiving money off of tenants to account. And that's simply why they got away with it for so long. It's not until people start shaming them that they see that there's a problem. This regulation's coming out, not just off the back of that, but massively off the back of Grenad. fell too in the fact that that happened, but six years on and six more years of people suffering

saying they've been treated exactly the same, I think it's an absolute shame. And I would go as far to say as in my own personal belief, if this had been a private landlord or if this had been a case where it was ordinary civilians, people would go to jail for it. There would be criminal prosecutions. I don't see why there should be any difference with social housing corporations or landlords or or housing professionals that basically dictate the lives of their tenants living in their homes and choose whether to listen or ignore them. And when it gets to an extreme case like the two-year-old boy that died in Rochdale because he was living in a home filled with dampen mould, or Grenfell, for example,

where people have died, they've paid the ultimate price for sheer negligence. Often, by any definition, corporate negligence, I absolutely believe people should be going to jail for it. I think that's as far as I want to see legislation go that far. But unfortunately, they're not seeing that as of yet. If we try and get to the root of why this issue is so huge, why are the people, you know, the people who have the responsibility of not just maintaining acceptable living conditions in social housing, but safe living conditions, why the neglect on their part? Like, why the reluctance to, you know, maintain these standards?

Is it just because they can? Is it just because nobody's holding them to account? Or, I mean, I think you touched on before, like a lack of care, because, like you say, these, you know, people are some of the poorest people. Why is it? I think it's a mixture. It starts off with them simply not caring because if they cared, they would be able to make sure these issues weren't happening.

They have the money to in a lot of cases. and the government comes, ultimately, if the people at the top controlling things haven't cared and they haven't because they've been selling off council homes instead of building them, then everyone that follows below in regards to the hierarchy is not going to care either. So I think fundamentally is down to not caring. Also, I think they're completely out of touch. You look at a lot of these housing professionals and senior roles. They've never lived in social housing. They don't live in social housing. You ask them, when last were they on a social housing estate. And some of them will tell you they can't remember. That's how out of touch

they are. When they speak to a social housing tenant, you ask them that. And there's a complete disconnect. How are you providing a service, but you don't know how it's been received by the people actually receiving it, basically. So I think it's a mixture between those two and also because they can get away with it too. They know they can get away with it. That's why they have, they've lost their purpose. Deny, like, basic human, like, it's kind of unbelievable. Yeah.

I mean, I, maybe part of the thinking is, you know, ignorance is bliss. Like, if I look into it, then I might start to care, so I'm just not going to look into it. But they are just denying basic human rights, and that's something that falls under their responsibility. Yeah, I mean, imagine if this was their NHS, always say, put in that situation,

if there's patients being neglected in this way, there will be absolute outrage. And you're completely right, talking about human rights, because it is a basic human right. And I don't think it's been spoken about enough in regards to, I have no doubt this is a violation, especially due to the scale of it and how widespread the issue is, or poor housing, dangerous housing, even after Grenfell. I have no doubt in my man that it's a human rights violation. Yeah, it's not being viewed at that level. Do you think it's because I think you said you were on this morning

with right-leaning party, whether it be BMP or UKIP or whatever, I feel like the rhetoric, and if we use it, we touched on it earlier, but if you use it to talk about channel crossings and migration, like the way that we speak now about people coming to this country is so abhorrent. You can't believe how, some of the stuff you hear, you can't, like you can't believe that it's just being said. Like, it's not being checked. It's not being, like, we've got very used to this quite extraordinary language being used

and really inflammatory. And like the Rwanda flight, the way that the government is saying things that just, I feel like our tolerance for what they're. saying has got quite high in terms of like the ridiculousness it just keeps on coming. So people will stop reacting maybe in the way that they did. Do you think that there's a rhetoric around social housing that contributes to this in terms of like the general publics? I wonder how your like documentary that you've done has been received by people. Is it shock? Is it sympathy or is it, do you get, do you receive any? It's always a mixture. I know what you mean. It's always

a mixture between it. I mean, the majority is shock because people just can't believe that. that individuals are being allowed to live in these conditions. And there have been negative stereotypes, false stereotypes. That's the word I think I'm looking for. It's a very easy thing for the government to do, right? Just stereotype it and just be like, well, well. And that's it. And it's been so inflammatory.

I mean, completely wrong the perception of social housing tenants here in the UK. And what's not helped, and I'm allowed to say it, is shows like Benefit Street and other shows like that, that paints a picture of social housing tenants, which couldn't be further from the truth, but has been seen as almost entertainment for different classes. I mean, they want to look at situations like that

where they're not living in it and be able to laugh and jokes her benefit street. It's very daily-maley, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. And I think that's not helped massively, and this is perception of social housing tenants, which is just like that. And along with others, have been working to prove

that that absolutely isn't the case. There's loads of people living in social housing from different professions, There's public sector, teachers, nurses, doctors, I've met solicitors. It's a broad range, surgeons, you name it, a absolute broad range of people living there. But again, it's this stereotype which has existed for absolute decades. Once upon a time, people are proud to live in social housing.

It was set up to be something to be proud of getting into. And in regards to touching upon rhetoric and asylum seekers, I think it's an absolute disgrace how this country, I won't say this country, I'll say the government, have treated asylum seekers and migrants, especially in the last few years, and in particular, I mean the Home Office and their rhetoric speaking about migrants

because I think it's peddling this discriminatory and I think racist notion that they are doing nothing but going to come here and scrounge off of the government and the state, which couldn't be further from the truth and even the way in which they talk about migrants crossing the channel. First and foremost, nobody is getting in an inflatable boat

and choosing to travel across the channel with their kids, with their family, if they are not desperate. Yet the Home Office is painting them as gangs and organised criminals. And fair enough, they may be the ones in charge of organising these boat crossings, but the individuals in the boats are clearly desperate. Otherwise, they would stay where they are. No one is willing to risk their life on that scale. And look what they're coming to.

Yeah. And this sort of treatment and rhetoric by the government talking about they're the worst of the worst. And what angers me the most and no one's willing to touch upon this subject is you will remember a few years ago the invasion of the Taliban in Afghanistan and how people were fleeing Afghanistan to come to the UK in different countries. And there were individuals hanging off the back of planes falling to their death trying to get out of the country. and now they've come here and they have been, and I can tell you because I've worked with some of them, being treated absolutely disgracefully crammed into rooms in hotels like sardines, being moved up and down the country all over the place, young kids who are studying and looking for schools.

And of recent, I believe it was April, I have to double check this, but we were telling, or the government were telling Afghan refugees that had come here to flee the Taliban that they now must vacate the hotels that they have been put in and find their own accommodation. In contrast to the way in which we have treated Ukrainian refugees that have come because of the war between Ukraine and Russia. And whilst we're telling Afghan refugees to move out of hotels,

the government's pumping hundreds of millions to house Ukrainian refugees and telling us to open our homes. And the only difference I see, and this is why I think the Home Office revolves around discrimination, although they won't say that, is the only difference between Ukrainian refugees and Afghan refugees is not their situations, but the shade and colour of their skin and their backgrounds. So I think it's absolutely undeniable,

and I think it's been an absolute disgrace in which refugees and migrants of colour have been treated by this home office and by the government and the way in which we treat Ukrainian refugees, but I have to make the point that I absolutely believe we've made the right decision in treating Ukrainian. refugees in the way that we have. I think all refugees should be treated like that, but we haven't seen that from the government and their rhetoric's been absolutely disgraceful. And I would go as far to say, what makes it even worse, is that the people that are in charge

of making these decisions and Rishu Sunaq and he stopped the boats and painting migrants and all migrants as organised criminals is that these individuals had parents that came over here as in some or grandparents as asylum seekers or migrants themselves yet they're pushing this agenda had roles been reversed essentially what they are saying Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak, Suella Braveman is that if roles were reversed

they would deny their own parents and grandparents enter in the UK by their own policies. I think it's an absolute disgrace and I think it's a disgrace that we're using people as colour in these positions so that the government can't be, as a token gesture so that the government

can't be accused of being racist or discriminatory because absolutely it is and that is the hill I will die on arguing. I'll die there with you. Yeah. Like, Suella Braverman like, I can't, I can't

like, that's what I mean about the statements that you make that you can't believe are really happening. You can't believe you're really hearing them that is that's the home secretary speaking like that. It's actually disgusting.

And what happened to the Equalities Act and following the Equalities Act and us being anti-discriminatory or anti-racist, yet it's the government the people in charge using these inflammatory terms to demonise people that are fleeing war, persecution. I've worked with asylum seekers that have fled gang-related violence, victims of FGM. I mean, I've spoken to people that have worked with individuals that have come from Afghanistan,

fleeing the Taliban and whose lives have been made an absolute misery since the moment they got here. I have to say first and foremost, in regards to housing too, is that there's a perception, and I think it's completely wrong and I encourage people that when they're talking about the subject they actually educate themselves first about the way in which migrants are asylum seekers or the process they have to follow

when they come over here to the UK. When they arrive here, they don't have a red carpet rolled out for them and social housing keys handed over to them and giving them a tap on the back and say, you move in here, this is yours. It doesn't work like that. When they come here, they must seek asylum.

In order to do that in a lot of cases, it takes years. I've spoken to people who have been trying to seek asylum for over a decade, until they can seek asylum, they have no recourse to public funds, meaning actually, although they're being housed by the home office, and I have to say the conditions of the properties that the home office are providing to these migrants

are absolutely slum conditions too in a lot of cases, they aren't able to receive help from the council, meaning they cannot receive social housing until they've had their asylum application granted. So that notion that they're coming here and stealing our homes and stealing our jobs and stealing our hotels and whatnot, it's completely false. They cannot work

until they've had their asylum application granted. That takes years. In a lot of cases, they receive what was the figure. I think they're given, I might be wrong, it might be less than this, but 35 pounds a week to live on.

Yeah, 35 pounds a week to live on. That's the reality. So anyone with the notion that they're coming here and stealing homes or they're handed keys as soon as they roll up, living in amazing hotels and whatnot, it's completely false.

And I absolutely encourage them to go and educate them to go and educate themselves on the process that has to be followed when asylum seekers and migrants come over here to the UK instead of spreading, what is misinformation? I understand because it's being peddled by the government and they should know better than that. The reason you were on Good Morning Britain this morning

is to debate whether British citizens should be pushed up the waiting list over refugees, right? How did that debate go? I mean, it was interesting. There was a poll that was conducted. I think 18,000 people actually made decision. And majority, vast majority, I think it was 91%, said yes, they absolutely should be. But again, and this is a policy that the government claim they're going to bring out.

It, for me, doesn't improve race relations in the country because what they're doing is, again, demonising migrants. And they're basically pitting two groups in society, British people, British-born people, and those fleeing persecution and war against each other. for something both groups deserve and should have because social housing should be a safety net that everyone has access to when they need it. And what they're not doing is looking at the bigger picture. So there was a lot of people saying,

yes, they should be put up the list. Two problems with that. One, even if you are pushed up the list, I can tell you now you're going to struggle just as much as being at the bottom of the waiting list. Why? Because we already have 1.4 million people waiting to get into social housing and the government aren't building enough.

Instead, since 1980s and the introduction of the right-to-buy scheme, and in 2016 under housing association, we've been selling off council homes. So we simply do not have the homes to house people, even if they are pushed up the waiting list. But again, it's about rhetoric. It's about demonising migrants, I think. It's about pitting two groups against each other. And again, it's pushing Rishi Sunak's mantra of stopping the boats and making these migrants

look bad like they're stealing something out of the mouth of British people. when in fact the problem is the government aren't doing their job with building more social homes. It doesn't matter where you are on that priorities list, but what it does is creates a further divide in between race relations. And I think that is absolutely dangerous, but again, they know what they do. And I can tell you that it's not worth the paper it's written on,

but let's see if they bring it out. Well, I think we said this before as well. I mean, it said it before we started recording, but in doing that, they are leaning towards or hoping, I suppose that the British people in social housing will vote for them because they'll be like, oh, look at the, you know. And it's like, I believe it to be a really, really dangerous thing to even be entertaining as a conversation

because, as we said before, if you start putting this in other areas like the NHS or whatever, you end up in a really frightening situation where it's very nationalist, which is historically a terrible thing for a country to be. But you said before about the 1.4 million people who are waiting. Can I ask what the reality of that looks like? like for these people? Like, what, where do you wait? Like, what is the, in the work that you've done, what have you seen? Um, so people when they, when they declare themselves homeless or show up to the council, first and foremost, in a lot of cases, they're treated absolutely

horrifically. Secondly, they're either advised to move into private accommodation or they're put in temporary accommodation like I was living in, um, which is again, poor conditions. And I can tell you now, there's absolutely nothing temporary about temporary accommodation. There's people being in there for 10, 12, 15 years waiting to get a social housing property in this country. And that is the absolute reality. I think we're moving more towards councils actually advising people to rent privately. And so they can absolve all responsibility of that individual rather than putting them into temporary accommodation or social housing.

But again, with local authorities too, they are cash-strapped because they've been underfunded for many, many decades when it comes to social housing in this country. And at one point, it was even demonised and looked at as a bad thing. that's the reality people are suffering in temporary accommodation in similar conditions to what I described earlier on it's it's horrific and what that means is although we give it the term temporary accommodation they are homeless they are homeless and I'll give you a statistic actually in London alone there's nearly enough homeless children to entirely fill Wembley Stadium and that's just in

London alone there's 81,000 homeless children in London. and alone. And the capacity of Wembley Stadium, I believe, is 91,000. So that goes to show just how bad the problem is. And that includes kids in temporary accommodation like I described, because that isn't a home for them. It's temporary. It's not a home. They are homeless. But we use this glitter term of temporary accommodation to make it seem better than what the reality is. And I think it's an absolute disgrace. If we're not looking after kids, what does that say about us as a country? The little boy that died because of the mould and the state that that house had been allowed to get into

that feels again like another it felt at the time very like this can drive change do you feel like that's what's happened on the back of that? Well off of the back of that there's conversations around damper mould have happened a lot and I have to stress the point that there are a lot of other forms

like I describe cotterters as much damp mould of disrepair that people are living in But the conversation around dampen mold took a serious turn and people started realizing actually people, and I had said it for a long time, people can become ill and you can die from dampen mold. And what we saw here was a young child proven because they found spores of mold in his lungs and in his blood

after he had died. And there has been this push to get housing providers to wake up and listen. Although with that being said, yes, they may be talking about damper mold even. more so now, the solutions are still the same and they're absolutely pathetic. They don't work. I mean, it's wash, going into someone's home, wash the mould off so they can't see it, and then paint white paint over it and go off and then three weeks later that mould is back.

Or they do that when actually it's a structural issue and it's a leak causing the dampen mould from above. But instead of dealing with that actual problem, it's a quick fix. As long as they can't see it, it's gone, it's not there. And with dampen mould, I've watched archive footage from 40 years ago of tenants being blamed in the exact same way they're being blamed now. for dampen mould, open your windows, stop drying your closing doors, stop leaving the shower running, stop filling your bath up so much. It goes to show that attitude towards social housing tenants when they are being blamed for an issue, which is in fact, in a lot of cases, structural or down

to the quality of the building, the fact that it's not up to scratch to meet the requirements needed for people to live in them. Can I ask you, can we move to a more personal note? Because I'm sitting here thinking like, whilst this work that you do, is incredible. It's heavy. And I imagine really emotionally draining and the things that you see and you witness and the people that you speak to. Like, you know, I can just imagine that this weighs very heavily on you. And I just wonder like how it impacts your mental health and how you deal with that because, I mean, it's amazing what you're doing, but it can't be easy. No, there's sometimes, I mean, nothing was worse than how I was feeling after my dad passed

the way that's for sure and I didn't think I could get lower than that. So there are difficult days, nothing like that. But there are times where it's hard and I sometimes question, will I be able to do enough to cause enough of a change to sort of get the right people to fix this or am I out of my debt sort of thing? And there's times where I'm flooded with messages and calls and whatnot and there's sometimes I'm just like, give me a break, like let me breathe for a second, sometimes getting calls at 12 at night or messages last minute asking me to do X, Y and Z early in the morning

and it does feel constant but I know it's for the right reasons and there's times actually that I think like I look at people my age and I think they're out and about enjoying themselves and I go and I'll befer and all of these party islands and whatnot doing what a 24 year old should do but I've been doing this what since 21, 22

and it's like I know I'm not missing my good days or my good years, let's say, because I'm doing work that I am proud to be able to do. But there's times I think, oh, like, am I missing out? Will I look back and think, oh, what was I doing in my 20s? Yeah, I hope you make space for that as well, because I think you can do both and you should do both. And I think to avoid burnout as well,

it's good to be able to just counter that all this stuff that you're doing and the you know the injustice you're fighting and the people that you're going up against who are just simply not willing to listen to you just to counter all of that with like I'm just 24 year old Quojo just living my life you know just a very normal fun life but you did also just say I wonder if I look back at my 20s like you will look back at this with such pride yeah no definitely definitely I mean this is like what you're doing is so so huge and you say you don't know if it'll make a difference it's already making a difference like i think the government have relied for a really long time on just the huge subsex of society

not having a voice and being quiet because it's just been easy for them to speak for them and paint whatever picture and you just haven't allowed that and you haven't let up and i think that's really cool yeah and you're going to be such a pain in the ars for them and that's exactly what you've got to be i do it somewhat being a pain in the ars and i've said it for a very long time people ask me oh what do you do and i'm just saying i'm a massive pain in the ars for but I am and it's good because I think, yeah, you need to keep them on their toes. And I think you're also breaking down, like, misconceptions around social housing and also, like, dismantling the shame that I imagine social housing tenants feel around, you know,

living in social housing. Yeah, and I want tenants and social housing's tenants to feel that they can go head to head with chief executives of organisations or politicians and tell them, well, actually, no, you're wrong because there's a perception that people living in social housing are stupid and they're sort of undereducated and they don't know what they're talking about but there's nothing more important and I can say this from lived experience I haven't got a degree in housing I haven't got a qualification in housing what I've what I have though is lived experience especially over the last two years and I can have conversations on the likes of good morning Britain and with politicians

MPs and whatnot from that but also learning from other tenants too and seeing their situations and have discussions with them and I want to be able to get social housing tenants no matter what your age is, what your background is, whether or not you think you can or should. I fully believe your voice definitely matters and you should feel no way about going head to head with these individuals that are supposed to be in charge of these problems because ultimately we can see they're not fixed. And speaking out for just what you deserve, like your basic human rights. Absolutely. I think another misconception is that, you know, that there's no rent, but you pay rent for social housing. It's just subsidized, right. Every, every single month. And I mean,

in some cases rent even in social housing is quite expensive i remember it was when i tv came down there was a lady paying one thousand three hundred pounds for her um the the home that she was in so it goes to show like yes it's subsidized but in some cases you're paying a lot of money yes not in comparison to um to private rentals but it's still a lot of money even for social housing still a deal it's still an exchange like i think there is this yeah there's this rhetoric i think as well, it's like, well, you can't be ungrateful because it's free. You're lucky. Yeah, you're lucky to have it. You've to take it. But, you know, we

like, yeah, we have the weirdest thoughts around this. When, I don't, I think you're right. I don't think people do know that there is still rent to pay. But it's apart from anything, it's like you're signing, you've been approved for it, you've been offered it, you've accepted in the same. Yeah. And you've agreed to

pay and you do pay. And it's, it's still a contract, which they are not honoring. And it's like, if they won't do the, if they won't do the humanity side of it, They won't say it from the humanity side of it, at least say it from the business side of it. Like, you're failing as business people as well as nice humans. And that's it. I say the same about politicians.

Yes, if, and someone actually told me like, and I will never forget this, politicians don't deal in morals. They don't deal with moral issues. They don't care about whether people are suffering. It's what politically motivates them. And I think there's exceptions, obviously, with politicians that actually do care about these sorts of issues. But overall, the vast majority at top level, deal with what's going to win them in the next election. And in regards to housing, not only is it a massive moral disgrace,

I think the long-term impact on the economy, productivity, the labour force, is going to be massively detrimental because if you've got people who aren't well as a result of the conditions they're living in aren't able to work and contribute to the economy, you're going to see that happen more and more, whether that be in social housing or as we're seeing in private rented accommodation, and those in home that own their own homes too, in some cases. and people falling ill mentally as a result of the stress

being depressed about where they're living they're going to suffer and that's going to increase the cost on the NHS too. Not only that, 1.4 billion pounds were spent last year by the NHS who we know are cash strapped as it is on looking after individuals that are living in terrible conditions and are going

to the NHS as a result of that. So even when you look at it from a productivity and financial aspect is costing the government in the long term more than what it will cost them to do more to fix this issue and address it. But they see things very short-sighted and it's about the next five years and what's going to win them the next election, what is their focus there?

Instead of looking at, we need to make systemic change now. So that 20 years down the line, we are in a better position and we can actually say, do you know what, that was as a result of us and our work. But they don't do that. And I mean, the lack of class diversity in Westminster speaks for itself because why would they care about issues? like this when none of them are actually experiencing it or been through it. Yeah. Shit, man. Anyone listening who wants to help? Yes. What can they do?

They can talk about this issue and speak to friends, family, speak to their colleagues even. You don't know. I mean, I always say, like, people will probably be shocked if they actually found out who it is that they work with living in poor conditions or suffering as a result of their homes. So speak about these issues, remove the stigma from it. But also, put pressure on your local MPs, put pressure on local councillors, politicians, speak about it in the lead up to the election and let them know that we know this is a problem. People have been suffering for decades. What is it that you're going to do about it? Because ultimately, all of us are paying taxes. The question is, where are our taxes going? Why is it not going on the things that we're prioritising?

So it's about us asking for what it is that we want and demanding that they fulfill it because they're receiving our taxes in order to do so. So that would be my message that election's coming up next year. So talk about it more and more. more and help apply pressure because I am one individual. One individual. And I need many more behind me to help push the message. You're very strong individual. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I feel like I need a porn star martini now. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.