Should I Delete That? - “We take the bins out naked” - with naturist Helen Berriman

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

How comfortable are you with nudity? Today, we’re speaking to Helen Berriman - who has been a naturist for the last four years - after reluctantly being introduced to it by her husband. Helen explained the difference between naturism and nudism, she ran through all the practicalities with us and debunked the misconception that naturism is about sex.We spoke about how being naked can have a huge positive impact on our body image - and the transformational effect being a naturist has had helping Helen to heal from past trauma. We also confront our personal concerns around safety - and consider our own boundaries when it comes to nudity. Listen to Helen’s podcast - British Naturism: Women In FocusRead more about British Naturism here - https://bn.org.uk/Support the Women in Naturism campaign hereFollow @helen.berriman on InstagramFollow @british_naturism on InstagramIf you want to get in touch you can email us on [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Elliott MckayVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Sarah EnglishMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We've got a note on the door saying natureist may answer the door. Oh wow. So you're happy to. So when Deliveroo come. Hi. Really? Oh my gosh. Wow. Hello and welcome back to Should I Delete that? I'm Im Clarkson. I'm Alex Light. And today we've got a natureist on the podcast. What a huge time for everything. I am so excited about this episode. I, on a whim in Costa Rica, I was like, God, natureism is fascinating. I would love to talk to one, said it to Faye in passing, and next thing I know, Faye worked her magic.

Yeah. We are straight off the back of recording this and we are giddy because it was such a good. It was so interesting. Interview. Frustrating to do the outro intro thing as we give you our sort of opinions before you hear from Helen, but I do want to have a conversation at the top of this episode about maybe our preconceptions, misconceptions and what we're kind of feeling towards the whole situation now.

I had a lot of misconceptions. We did research on our, on our brilliant guest, Helen Berriman, but my knowledge of natureism was very limited and I think, and we talked about this in the episode, but like I really did conflate natureism with sex and nudism and exhibitionism and I thought they were very much one and the same. And they are not. No, no. They are really not. And Helen is very strong in explaining that that is completely separate, which did surprise me. Yeah. I think I feel two things, probably similar to how I went into, I think I feel coming out of it, only with a bit of a murkier bit in between. I think the idea of what she does, incredible, I love what it's done

for her relationship with her body. It's healed some past trauma. It's freeing and incredible, and I can really see how it benefits the children growing up in these environments, like looking back at like a sort of anthropological, easy for me to say, anthropological perspective. I don't think I'm saying it right. If we were all naked all the time, I can see the benefits when she lays them out.

Without the constructs of a modern society, nature is and does seem the way. But we do live within a society that has clothes at the core of it. And I, within that, still find myself struggling to see where the lines blur between exhibitionism and natureism. I think when she's talking about the festivals

and about being in her own home, I'm like, get it, queen. Like, go for it, love that, I'm coming, signed up, skinny dipping, chunky dunking, all of it, I'm ready. Yeah. But then when I hear about people walking down the street naked, I'm still unsure about where I'm at,

not because of what they're doing, but because of what I know nudity can represent in terms of threat. and fear. And I think that's where, yeah, that's where we both align in terms of it's male nudity versus female. Yes. Nudity. Yes. And I think, I know that it's bad to admit this, but I do have, I mean, Helen left with some leaflets, in the leaflets, lots of photo shoots of naked people. And I do have a level of discomfort in seeing the naked men. Yes. That is quite confronting to me. Yeah. I don't know how comfortable I am with that. In a

that I do not feel about the women, I enjoy looking at, not in a sexual way, but I enjoy looking at the women. Like, I think it's, it's really nice to see women free and at one, like, just comfortable with their bodies like that. But does, looking at the men naked, like, I don't know. I think there's a huge societal consideration there, which I just, I want to explain that we have and, like, is a sort of running theme throughout the episode. And I'm not sure that we answer the question necessarily, only that we do try and raise it to work out our own thoughts around this. And it is, I think, that we as body image advocates at the very least, and as women and mothers ourselves, want this freedom for women, right? And it is

beautiful to see and it's exciting. Naked women genuinely bring me joy because I know the innate shame that is womanhood. So to see any contradiction, any rebellion fills me with glee, I think by the same stroke, male nudity is perhaps tied rightly or wrongly with maybe a confidence or an arrogance or an entitlement. And there's a power dynamic because naked men can be threatening and that can often be used to their advantage. And I don't think we can, I think that's what I was trying to say before about like the society that we operate in. the way that it's skewed a naked man by virtue of his existence

could be perceived as threatening and that's a very hard thing to unpick as we're having this conversation it is, it's really difficult but I think Helen did a great job of explaining and I think she's right in that we would only truly understand if we were to experience this for ourselves

100% and if we leave that aside which we couldn't really do within the interview because we had to ask that question But leaving that to one side and taking natureism for what it is, I thought it was beautiful. And I loved hearing her speak. It was. And I'm all over it. I'm ready for it. I think this is my next chapter. Is it? Is it fucked? On a practical level, I have to explain it to everyone. But I could see, I mean, nakedness is already like, I did the naked catwalk.

You did? Which changed my life a lot. Childbirth has changed my view of myself, breastfeeding particularly. I feel very comfortable and confident naked. So I think on a practical, I probably won't do this. I probably won't do this as like a thing. Okay. Because I don't know, my friends would be like,

where you go, what are you doing? We've got a birthday party this weekend. Like, I don't know if I, I don't know if it's right for me right now. But in principle, naked around the house. Yeah. Like naked on a beach. Definitely more inclined than me, for sure. Did it sway you any sort of way?

No. No. Not even a little bit. I'm intrigued. I am intrigued about the community. But what about in your own house? But in my... Well, I thought it was interesting talking about...

And it's something that I've never really considered before, but talking about kids and wanting your kids to grow up seeing naked bodies is just something that is. And like, it's just a part of being a human. It's just a body. It's just like white noise rather than something to be, like, shocked by. Yeah. So I think I would like to be...

I think it'd be more naked in my own house. Yeah, I think I would like to actually. It's going to be quite challenging, I think, for me. Really challenging. Yeah, but I'm going to give it a go. I think that's the good thing. Yeah. We don't have curtains or blinds in my house at the moment.

Well, that might be your incentive to get curtains or blinds. Yeah, and it's dark now. It's winter and it's dark. And we've got, like, in the kitchen, we've got like very big glass windows. So I think there are a few measures that need to be put in place. We could start upstairs. Also, no curtains or no blinds. and lots of windows.

So I think I have... Exhibitionism is in your future. I have some work to do. But once that work is done, I think I could give this a go. Once that work is done, there's more work to be done. This was a really incredible conversation and I hope you guys enjoy it. At the very least, perhaps it might encourage a little bit more in the house nudity, which I don't think is a bad thing.

Totally. And open our minds to something that we, a lot of us just don't understand. Yeah. So this has been great. Really great. Really interesting. Guys, here's Helen. Hello.

Hello. Thank you so much for coming to talk to us. I have a billion questions. My curiosity is piqued in every single direction. I guess it would be pertinent probably to start and ask how you got into natureism. Yeah, natureism. Natureism. Yeah. Long version or short version?

Oh, long form. 100%. So 10 years ago. I reconnected with my now husband, who was actually a school friend. Quite soon into the relationship, he revealed that he was a naturist. I'm like, okay, whatever. That, you know, as long as it doesn't affect me or in any way, then you crack on. But it did affect me, actually, because I caught him, I came home from work early once,

and he was butt-naked at his desk. And I'm like, ugh, this is all wrong. And I had my eight-year-old daughter with me at the time. time and she was not faced by it at all it was me that was having the problem with it made him get dressed etc etc so yeah we had some very robust conversations about it fast forward a little bit then lockdown happened and i was like it was the hottest summer we'd had i think and i was really really getting on my own nerves having to go at him about being dressed when it was so hot so i just let him crack on, literally.

And then I've got to be careful about the language. I like it. I enjoyed it. So yeah, and then I'd always had body issues anyway, so body dysmorphia. But that summer, I actually bought a bikini. Like, I hadn't even done that in years. And went in the garden with my bikini on

and just thought, you know, that's all right. I'm forti-odged and so what? That sort of thing. And then during one of the lockdowns, I think it's the second one, my husband got me involved in this normalising nudity project, whereby I would go along to a nature's place and be like a life model, but in reverse, so I was the clothed one while all the naked people were drawing me. And about one hour into it, again, probably the hot day of the year, I felt silly being

the only one dressed. So I took my clothes off. And all of them, all of them. And the world kept spinning and nobody was sick. And I just kind of got, that was my eureka moment, if like. I just kind of saw that nobody really gave a shit. My lad's swear. Yeah, yeah.

Nobody gave a shit that I, you know, for me, I wanted fanfare and all that sort of stuff. But it was unremarkable. Nobody cared. And everyone just carried on drinking their coffee. And it was then I thought, you know what? really doesn't matter what I actually look like. People are interested in talking to me. This is great.

I'm not having to conform to a certain way of looking or behaving. And yeah, that was that was that. So I had the bug then and just thought, I was so wrong about natureism. I thought, like most people think, it's all about being nude or, you know, maybe there's more to it. Maybe it's sexual.

And it was that moment. I just realized I've been so wrong and if I'm so wrong about it then I'm going to go and tell everyone and so that's what I do so many questions so many questions I'm just thinking about you in that moment

taking your clothes off and as someone who has struggled with their body image that must have been a very difficult move to take your clothes off and then talk to people and be completely exposed and vulnerable like that that must have been really difficult It kind of was, but I think I'd built it up.

I mean, I didn't even know I was going to do it. I mean, I went on the understanding that I would keep my clothes on, like categorically, that it wasn't even an option that I was going to take my clothes off. There was no discussion. I just did it because it was so hot and because I felt really silly being the only one, you know, among 30-odd people. And so I just did it. But because it was so unremarkable and nobody cared at a moment.

or even noticed, I think, or at least if they did, they didn't tell me they'd notice, was when I was just like, wow, wow, I get it. I get what you not get. I have so many questions about that, but can I just go back to that first time finding your husband? Prior to that, your now husband, prior to that, did you know that that was his, like that was something that he was a part of his life? Well, he told me early on that he was a natureist.

And to me, I just didn't really understand what that meant. I was just like, okay, whatever, as long as it doesn't bother me in any way. But then he would be sort of clandestine about it and sort of hide it and made it sort of become a problem, if you like. And, you know, he could see that trying natureism would help me with my sort of body issues and stuff. And I wasn't having it. Like, why would I get my kit off when I don't like what I see? But it was actually by getting my kit off. and realising I didn't have to look a certain way.

Like everyone's acceptable. You could have five arms, six legs. You know, it wouldn't matter. Everyone's accepted. And it took a lot of unlearning behaviors about how you think about yourself and how you think about others even. At that initial point when you still had a little bit of like confusion or maybe prejudice or whatever it was about what he was doing

and you had your daughter in the situation. Because obviously we are also weird about nudity. And you've got your kid to think about and how you're raising her and the environment you want her to be in. So was that sort of, was that the point of contention? Was it her or was it? It was. But, you know, my sort of thoughts at the time was like,

it's not up to you, as in my husband, to decide when she gets to see a penis. Yeah. You know, it should be up to me, if anything, or her. Yeah. But he also has two daughters from previous marriage who are a bit older. and very used to him being nude around the house and stuff like that and it was seeing how they weren't bothered by it at all

my daughter I was like so what wasn't bothered by it the neighbours knew that he was a naturist and wasn't bothered by it and I was like it's me like I'm the one that's got the problem yeah what's my problem yeah I mean I could go on about what my problem was but that might be a whole new show can we jump even further back And can I ask you how your husband got into it in the first place, how he discovered natureism? So he doesn't have like this sort of pinnacle moment necessarily, but he would as a teenage boy come home, take his clothes off and play computer games in his bedroom. Then his first wife wasn't really a fan either.

Eudity was all right, all right upstairs, but not downstairs. But it was when he went on one of the World Naked Bike Rides in Exeter. I have so many questions about that. Why do you put your balls if you're sitting on a saddle? Every time I see them, I always just think. I've never done it. It looks really uncomfortable. I'm with you.

Okay, maybe we'll have to get him on for a part two to ask that specific question. But yeah, so it is when he went on the environmental grounds that he met other people like him that wanted to be free of clothes. Yeah. And so that's when he discovered, there's other people like me. I must be a naturist as well. can you define natureism for us i guess how it's officially defined and then what it means to you it's well it means different things to different people and i talk about this on my podcast is there a difference between natureism and nudism right it's interchangeable really a lot of people

say natureism is more about being um free being close to the environment being close with nature not having to sort of conform to clothing, you know, and the status symbol of clothing. And nudism often can mean more like exhibitionism, perhaps. It depends. You ask different people and they'll say different things. But for me, it's very much like the social side of it and the non-judgment.

And you find yourself being a lot non-judgmental as well. Yeah. I think your initial hesitation, I think that is a really interesting point. And I think like, you know, watching how his daughters were and how your daughter was. And, you know, I think you're your shoulder, it feels like you're all shouldering a lot of the responsibility there. And like, oh, it's my, you know, maybe, maybe it is true that children are, because I think it is, right, that children are very. They're natural natures. Yes.

And then we become. We body shame them, actually. We're telling them to cover up and get dressed. and all that sort of stuff, as if your bits and pieces are so, so private. We, as a society, are teaching our kids' body shame, like, really quite early. Is your attitude towards your daughter's body dressing choices, has that changed as you've become more open?

No, she's 18 now, so she's very into clothing. You know, that's her identity. That's how she represents herself. But she absolutely has no problem with me now. At first, she was like, oh, God, not you as well. Because she was what, how old was she? So it's four years ago, this all. So that's quite a pivotal age and a teenage girl's life to tell her.

Oh, God. Not you as well. Got a new hobby. Surprise. How to embarrass your kids. But there is embarrassment that is, when you're speaking, it's like, I'm like, how much of this is innate, how much of it has been put on us?

How much of it should we have this like, this discomfort that we all have with nudity, with nakedness. Because we're taught to associate nudity with sex, pure and simple. And for me, it's unlearning all of that and knowing it's absolutely not sexual at all. I was raped when I was 14, so nudity always equated sex to me. So having to unlearn all of that has been actually life-changing. I'm really sorry that happened. Yeah, I'm so sorry that happened.

But that must have added... Can delete that if you want for it. Oh God, no, no, no, no, it's your story. But that must have added a really, an extra, very complicated layer to you being naked and embracing your body. Yeah, because I was so against it. Like, not even just like, you know, I was really, really like, that's bad. You can't do that around my daughter. So, yeah, I've gone to 360 on it.

Yeah, but that's totally understandable. That feels like an inevitability that you'll feel like that and particularly around your daughter. Yeah, my job was to protect. You know, Mama Bear, protect. But, you know, I didn't know what I was protecting her from. And that's the thing. We don't know what natureism is. And that's why I talk about it so much and so publicly

is to educate people, really, that it's not this weird, like, sexual looking at people thing. It's quite the opposite. Becoming a natureist, then, did it force you to confront that past trauma? or was not necessarily confront it but like I say I started to realize that the problem was mine and my issues around nudity and whether that's from the past or whether it's body issues that I'd had and it was then realizing I'm 45 or whatever I was this is my body and I've learned that it changes no matter what you're going through whether it's pregnancy having kids what happens to you

after you've had kids, now I'm in a pause, you know, you're never going to look as good as you did at 20 or 30. So just embrace what you've got now. But it's trying to educate yourself or myself of that and being okay. And like, you know, my body has taken me through some pretty horrific things and I wear my scars with pride now. It's a story. It's really beautiful. When you say it like that and I wish I didn't, but all I keep getting hung up on is like the practicalities of it. No washing Oh my God, no washing I was actually on the other side

but that's a perk I was on the cons list but that's a good that's a good broochage list yeah so day to day are you just naked around the house or weather permitting

like in the winter or obviously not but in the summer yeah we've got a note on the door saying nature is may answer the door oh wow

so you're happy to the wind delivery come hi really oh my gosh wow do you have a ring doorbell so you can capture all there

No, but we should, that would be fun. What are their reactions? Mostly I send my husband. Can you go? Some people say, oh my goodness, I thought you were going to be naked. Like if I answer the door and I'm dressed, I'm like, yes, winter, no. Yeah. But in the summer, if you answer naked.

It starts conversations, you know, people ask what it is and, yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's good. And can I ask where the parameters of, like, nudity within your house are? Like, do we take the bins out naked? Husband does. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah, so all the neighbours know. And does that get him into any, you know, like society. We are quite uncomfortable and obviously there are laws around flashing, I believe, and well, naturesan is not illegal. Okay. So to be nude and going about your business as a naturist is not illegal. If your intent is to shock or cause distress, then that is a problem. Right.

But it's all about respect. And if our neighbours did have an issue, then we would respect. that but you know they're okay yeah yeah I would have thought it was illegal it's not I have I have information I can give yeah that's amazing so if you wanted to walk around town it's completely nude yeah as a naturist you could you could whether it's right to do so or not you know society is probably not ready for that but you definitely could yeah do you think as long as you're not going you know you're not trying to shop people are upset people yeah but you know if you wanted to go a nature's walk, then it's perfectly fine.

But then, you know, like I say, if you've got to judge, you've got to read the room. Like if I popped off to Tesco's or something nude, it's not the thing, is it? You know, I don't want to upset people or get upset by their reactions either. I think I have my own stuff to unpick here, but as I'm thinking on it, I think like, if I were out with my kids and we saw a naked woman, I would really have no issue with that. But I think I would have an issue if I were with them and they saw a naked mat. Right. I can understand that, actually.

And part of why I do what I do is because to represent women. And when women are at a natureous event or on a natureous walk or bike ride, it kind of validates why we're all there. Whereas if a man does it and men are less sort of embarrassed and more public about it, So the conception is that most more men do it. It's not necessarily true, but a lot of women are more shy or, you know, don't want to talk about it because of the connotations that it brings. It is my double standard that I'm like, yeah, women should have the right to be naked

and they should be naked all the time because we're not innately sexual and we should have the right to be proud of our bodies and like, go get it, girls. But then by that same toke, I'm like, please don't have your wheelie out. So then it's like I can't work out where I've landed there. Well, I think I was the same like four or five years ago. But then I've sort of realized it's just a willy. It doesn't mean what it used to mean to me. It's just like your elbow.

You know, it means nothing to me anymore. Yeah. So, yeah, that's cool. I'm interested in the fact that we conflate natureism with sex. And I have to say, embarrassingly, that I, that was, I, I think I believed that before sort of researching this episode. Yeah. I thought that's what it was. Do you know what?

Natureism is the most unsexy environment. Really? You see everything. You see all sorts of people, every body shape, every size, every colour, you know, every age. And that's one of the beautiful things about it is you find yourself in. conversations with people you wouldn't ordinarily think that you would have a chat with. And if you're like at a natureist club or like a festival or something like that, you've got people in their 20s right up to 70s and 80s.

And the clothing is removed, therefore, so is, it's a great leveler. You're all the same. It removes a lot about barriers. And status symbols, really. Again, back to the practicalities. I'm just thinking like I feel like I'd have intrusive thoughts

and I'd be like I'd be thinking to myself like don't look down don't look down and then I would look down does that happen I suppose so maybe a little bit

I mean nature's etiquette and there is such thing oh okay is eye contact is it yeah and you can't help but look

you know you can't help it to have a little look but I was I would be awful I think I should go as exposure therapy because I'd be a menace I'd be like

you would for about Five minutes. And then you... And then you're just like, don't get bored of it? Is it not... What, you just don't do it? Like, no.

It just means nothing. Yeah. But at the beginning, when you were sitting there fully clothed, being drawn by all those naked people, were you not like head, like on a, just spinning around? I think that was the hardest thing, actually, rather than the whole getting naked was being around the naked people. Yeah. Right.

And within the first five minutes, I thought, oh my God, what the hell am I doing here? It's exactly what I thought it was, all these old people, like, you know, nude. And, um, and. You know, I soon realized that wasn't like that at all. Yeah. So, yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Like, I can still remember because it's only like five years ago.

Yeah. But I would have had the same questions that you're having. I want to go to one. I want to go. You should. You should come to one of the festivals. I have no issue with nudity. That would not be my barrier.

My barrier would be the everything around it, like the etiquette that are, like the looking. It's the angles. It happens if you drop something. Like, I'd feel embarrassed to bend out. Like, that kind of thing. Do you know what I mean? Like, being naked. I'm very mindful about pitching a tent.

Yeah. Exactly. I'm like, I don't know, sitting on stuff, like having to stand that, like, if you sat on a... Take a towel. You take a towel everywhere. Okay, so yeah. Okay, I see. Okay, that's making it sound more appealing.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. How much would we, what would it take to get you there? I just don't, sizzle off. I just don't trust myself not to look a lot. Is that the biggest barrier for you? No, no. Also, me is like, I'm not.

that comfortable with nudity myself. But where's that come from? My mom is the biggest prude on God's green earth. Honest to God, she is the biggest biggest prude. I took it to a natureist event. Yeah, I'll give her a nature's calendar.

A top below like collar level, like neck level. So it comes from there. But yeah, it would be interesting. I think we should go for research purposes. You definitely should. You should come to nude fest next year. Can I ask how the, with etiquette and stuff in those environments do people bring phones can people take photos or is it like a

no it's mostly no photo policy um at clubs and festivals and things like that but you have like photo areas okay it again it's respect respect for people's privacy it feels like a really awful question to ask but i feel like it it it feels like getting loads of people together naked like sometimes sexual stuff like might end up happening. Never. Never. I'm surprised by that. No, no, no.

Like I said, it is so unsexy. Because like if you think of something like Love Island and your bits are covered, but they're provocative, right? Little bits of triangle fabric and it's drawing your eye to those bits. Natureism, the bits are out. There's nothing to hide. The chase is like. Exactly. And it's just a body.

But with sexual dynamics, if you go with your partner, for example, you know, you'd hope that like your partner might find you attractive anyway. Or like if you wanted to meet somebody even at one of those events, obviously like never mind the nudity element, by virtue of like human condition, we do find each other. That's part of the game, isn't it? Like you find a mate or whatever. Yeah. So is there that kind of dynamic within these things? I mean, I guess, but I've not, I mean, I'm married, so I've been married since. But if you go with your partner, like, I don't know, it's such a bad question, but I'm just thinking, like, if a man is, if a man is interested, you kind of know about it.

I know, I'm thinking about that. So that's my, that's my question, basically, without having to be so vulgar and stupid to ask it. You said it better than how I was going to say, ask it. No, ask it your way, because I didn't ask it, I've just danced around it. The thing is that with natureism, like I said before, it's all about respect. So if a man, was to pray on a woman, his behaviour would be called out. It's not acceptable. But what if he just gets an erection? Then he's there for the wrong reasons. But what if I happen by accident?

Yeah. Then you deal with it. Should he just take himself away? Just put your towel over the front of you. Okay. Yeah, that's the moment is gone. Does that not come up in the etiquette? Is there sort of a, there is?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm pleased we got that out of the way. Because again, in truth, like, I feel like if I was a man, I would know that I couldn't and then I would get one. We've talked about this before. It's her biggest fear.

Yeah. Again, the first time you probably would. The second time, you're like, it's not sexy. So, and you hopefully would be there for the right reasons, which is, you know, community, freedom, well-being, all that jazz. Have you found that, like, that I know you say it's not sexy and there's nothing about natureism by virtue of what it is that is sexual, but in learning to love your body and in learning to accept your body.

Have you found empowerment in that sense of like embracing your sexuality or embracing that you are sexy no matter of what you look like or is it just been a more like matter of fact this is my body or has it been more liberating in that side of things as well.

It's certainly liberating but then menopause happens that's something else entirely to deal with. And I wish that I had discovered this freedom years ago like in my 20s or 30s and I would have saved myself a lot of bother and grief really um and i find with with um my husband's older daughters they're 22 and 24 they are fine with nudity they'll come to natureous things with us and their confidence is lovely brilliant because they've seen so many different bodies like their whole lives

whereas my child who hasn't seen lots and lots of different bodies but has has more body issues although I've seen her confidence improve with my attitude towards the body. Yeah, that's amazing, isn't it? Has she expressed any interest in being a natress herself? No, no, no. Absolutely not. She's just like, Mom, what you're doing? Exactly.

She did come with me to a natures club once because it was my birthday, but she was completely overwhelmed and where to take home. Yeah, well, fair enough. Yeah, but I thought, thanks for coming, but okay, let's go home. If you go to a nature club Could you come with your clothes on Or you've got it You, it's clothing

A lot of them are clothing optional But why would you go there And keep your clothes on? Well for a birthday party I suppose Like in that situation Yeah She would never expect her to be Yeah

Yeah Kids aren't expected to be nude necessarily God the kid things are really interesting How do you feel about it As I've got a mum of a little boy I think I've got this weird Protective innate Like

protective thing of the girls because of what a man's naked body represents as a threat and a danger. But you've got a little boy, do you feel the same way? Or do you feel, how do you feel about it? Is there an age limit to, is there an age, a minimum to becoming an atrist or to being a natureist? No. I guess I mean in a sense of like joining clubs and retreats rather than just like being a actress in your own home.

Do you know what I mean? No. No. Anyone could be a naturist. Like, it is about respect and any dodgy behaviour is called out. So that's why it is safe and friendly for children as well. So I think if my son wanted to do it, I do think I'd want him to be... Oh, yeah, 100%?

You know, 18. Oh, do you? Oh, do you? I thought, well, that's why I jumped in, too soon. Yeah. Do you? I think so, yeah. How, why?

Because... I want to be really careful how I say this because I don't want to be discriminatory of natureism at all. And obviously, it sounds like a really wonderful community. But obviously there are always people who don't necessarily have the bad intentions in every community, you know. And I think that I would want to protect him from the possibility of that. Is it in that scenario, I guess he'd be going by himself and that's what you'd want to protect him from? Or is it like the exposure to it? But there could be bad people within scouts and cubs and things like that.

Yeah, 100%. We have to remember what we're talking about, Al, that she's going to keep Tommy holding his hands. I mean, for him to be, I don't know, it's complicated. Yeah. I'm thinking this out. I'm thinking this through live. So my thoughts aren't fully formed on this, but I guess. Sorry, I put your spot.

You're right. There are predators everywhere. Yeah. Within every community, of course. and you, you know, there's, to a certain extent, there's only so much you can do, but that feels a little bit more vulnerable for him to be, like, naked in a space where a lot of people can see him naked. I think the only way of really understanding is by doing it yourself.

And I've written so many articles, done the podcast, et cetera, et cetera, being on the radios and tellies and things like that. And people will sort of raise an eyebrow and think I'm probably a little bit wacky. but it wasn't until I actually went for myself, that I understood it myself. So that's the only way. And then you would see what sort of environment it is for yourself. I think I'm less concerned about the environment. I actually think that sounds lovely.

It does. And I would, there's a big part of me that would like to give that to my girls because like you say, you know, you can see the proof in your husband's daughters and their confidence. And I do think that's wonderful. And I do think the environment sounds incredible. For me, it feels more about, and I think this is just our, a societal attitude towards naked men.

Again, if I could send them to a woman's only nudist, naturist, that sounds lovely. Yeah, that I can, I'm a hundred. There is something, and it's wildly problematic to say, but we know how we've grown up, and we all know what we've been exposed to, the penis can be really threatening. And by virtue of what it is,

if I were raising my kids fully as a natureist, which I live in London, simply can't, I could not. I also, I just, no, sorry, I would, I, I, no, couldn't do it, but only in that, in the house I can think it's amazing, in the environment, in the right environment, I guess is what I'm saying, it sounds incredible, but then it's where I, where I'm coming a little bit unstuck is the integration and like, where it, where you, where you, where you take the bins out and where people come to your house, do you know what I mean? the way you see it as like a sort of dream or hope or best case scenario is it that this is sort of a behaviour that's reserved for these clubs for your homes and that's kind of where you express as part of yourself or would you hope that we'd get to a place where we could all be naked more and men wouldn't be so threatening by nature is that the hope yeah exactly that so that's a round the house way of saying it that's a really good way of saying it actually and

I think the hope is to be sort of understood more and not to, for people to automatically think there's intent or, you know, sexual behaviours. And if I, who had sexual trauma as a teenager, can undo all of that learning and feel comfortable in those spaces. I actually find within natureism, you become gender blind eventually. Do you? Yeah. Yes.

But we do offer women-only spaces as well. because you're right the hope is there are predators in every situation the danger is not the willy the danger is the man that it's attached to right behavior yes so you want the you want the the except and that's that is the dream for our kids right so they always feel comfortable with their bodies and with other people's bodies but we do have that in this like sort of dream and hope and what you're hoping for in terms of our shift like what does that that that side of things can't necessarily be ignored the wrong intentions and whatever like where How does sort of natureism deal with that, like in your own head even?

Yeah. It's about respect, first of all, and any bad behaviour is called out on. It is a community and everyone's got each other's backs. So anything like that or any wrongings, man or women, you know, they'll be dealt with. They'll be taken out or... Taken out. Taken out of the environment. Oh, okay.

It's an extreme sport nature of it. And yeah, and it's one of those sort of communities where you end up knowing people and knowing who the wrong people are. Yeah, it's hugely respectful. Do you feel uncomfortable now with your clothes on? No, because it's winter. Okay, okay. I just wonder, once you become used to having your clothes off,

it's like I can't wear socks in bed, you know? Like as soon as I get into bed, my socks, I feel like my feet are on fire if I've got my socks on or something. Do you wear clothes in bed? Yeah. Yeah. Do you? No.

Well, I'm breastfeeding, so I've had to, you do have to sleep in a bonner, and I've now, I mean, ideally, no, I don't. But I'm trying to be very naked around the kids. So, and I, I've said a million times, but I think the best thing I ever did for my relationship, my body was starting to blow dry my hair naked because it just gave me complete clarity of who I was. I just watched myself and then like you say,

after 10 minutes or the third time you've done it, you're completely immune to your own nudity and that was very freeing. So yeah, I spend a lot of time naked and I do sleep naked, apart from when I'm sleeping with a toddler because if you get a boob trapped underneath an elbow, you just have to die. It's so painful.

But yes, I'll do that have to my own devices. I think it's good that, kids get to see normal bodies. Yeah for sure. Otherwise they search from online, you know, and are seeing things that aren't real or aren't attainable. Yeah, I agree with you. That's something that I need to work on. And I think it used to be about body image stuff. And I think it's less about that now. I'm more probably about the fact that I'm just not that comfortable with nudity. Because it's never, I've never seen, like, I've never seen my mum naked. Wow. That's on my mum naked this morning. Or my dad. Like never. Yeah. Yeah. Because it was just

It's so, like my mom is so, it was so taboo. Yeah. But you're so right that your children should grow up in an environment where they just, they just see it as normal. It's just like, it becomes like white noise nudity. Is Dave naked at home? Yeah, he's pretty naked actually. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think it's a good, which is a shock when I met him because I was with my ex-boyfriend for a really long time and he was very like me, like there was rarely ever, ever any nudity. And then Dave is just like, super free. Like, he'll just walk around. Alex is the same I remember being so shocked at first and we're like, oh my God I just imagine what I felt

yeah what did your husband do when you said he was at home he wasn't on a Zoom court was it did it just in my mind I'm like he's sitting on a He does do that He's a software developer

So he works from home Yeah yeah And at first with his job They kept asking him to put his camera on He was like well if you want And they're like It's all right, Simon, you don't have to put it your camera on anymore. That, he sounds really unapologetic about his natureism.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, we see no shame in it. There's no shame in it. Why should we be ashamed of, you know, being okay with our bodies? And we're not forcing it on anybody else. This is what we do. And this is how we are comfortable.

I guess I'm not thinking about it in a shame sense. And obviously this is probably your husband's question to answer, but like more in like a conformity. sense. Even if I didn't feel shame around it, I'd feel like, well, I'm taking the bins out, like, we'll stick a rope on, not to, you know, just because, or like if I'm going on a Zoom call. And I'm not saying that's, that is a good thing. I just, I think it's really cool that he's completely unapologetic about it and not, like, people pleasing, you know. If, you know, like I said before, if people were, if our neighbours were bothered, then,

then it's a respect thing. He wouldn't do it. But, you know, we, we, we, we, we, we wouldn't do it. But, you know, we, we, we have conversations than this is what do? Do you have a problem with it? Blah, blah, blah. And they don't. Have you ever had anyone with an issue with it? Not that I know of.

Whether people have done it behind our backs, I don't know. But no. No. Because I don't think we're in people's faces with it. We'll do organized events. We'll go to clubs. I mean, I've done nature's walks, but it's not my favorite thing to do. One, it's walking.

And in the public, I don't particularly. like to draw attention to myself in that way, but I'll do it to represent women. You know, women are present, women are doing it. It's okay. Like, where is the line with exhibitionism in that I completely understand the representation and I love that? But then when, and I, I'm 100% with you, I understand it. And I think it sounds amazing. But when it's walking, what's, or being in public in other senses, what's the intention, if not exhibitionism? Do you know what I mean? Is that, is it?

It's just walking within the elements. So, yeah, it's just part of. Yeah. But if you wanted to go for a coffee, for example, as a group and you were on this walk, would you put some clothes on to go to the cafe or would you, yeah? Well, yes, unless you'd phone ahead. Yeah. Can we come in?

Yeah. I just like, yeah, because, because, sorry, the laws on it were, is it that exhibitionism is elite. So if your intent is to shock or cause distress, then that is illegal. But if you were to go on an organised nature's walk, you could go up and down the high street if you wanted to. That would be okay.

In fact, a couple of friends of ours who are more comfortable in public places than perhaps I would be. We went to the nude fest that I was telling you about. And then after nude fest, we went to Glastonbury High Street. So our friends were completely naked and I had something like this on. and they were you know called names especially her really and I was really shocked that

she was getting the abuse and not him can you tell us what names slag really slug really and I was like my god just because she's nude she's not showing off she's not exit she has sensory issues and a lot of people find clothing really restrictive like even socks you know the lining of the socks can be really restrictive for some people and she's a person like that who needs to be free, she finds, and I can understand this part, real social anxiety with having to think about what to wear, like just my bum look big in this,

you know, I got muffin tops and, yeah, so I can relate to that. But yeah, the abuse she got, she got was horrible. Yeah. And he got off scot-free, who was all right to just, yeah. In those instances of people calling the police So is that ever, does that ever come up? They did a, the same couple, should probably get them on,

but they did a naked bike ride from John O'Grote's to Land's End, or the other way around, I can't remember which way around it was. And they were absolutely fine until they got to Scotland and someone knocked them off their bike. Yeah, and the police were called for that and prosecuted. They were prosecuted, not my friends, but, you know, people that knocked them off the hike. It was intentional?

Was it intentional? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. gosh. It's really interesting, isn't it? As we're speaking about this, one of the biggest backlashes we ever had on this podcast was when we interviewed Nellie London years ago when we first started because she had walked in lingerie down Oxford Street. And the criticism that we got, I think probably Bar-Lillie Phillips was the loudest. Interesting that women's sexuality seems to be the most controversial thing we talk about on here. But that those

comments from parents, and it was before we had kids, were people so angry with her or the idea of her or the idea of what she was doing because it's like they wanted their children protected. But it's a very interesting thing that there is this visceral reaction to women naked, men naked, but it sounds like women naked to the point of violence, to the point of abuse, which we've seen a little bit online, but obviously your friends have experienced in real life. Yeah. But then women are always targeted no matter what they do, whether in a textile environment or a nude environment, you've been wearing the wrong sort of clothing and you'll get pulled up on that or the wrong brand or, you know, you're not skinny enough or whatever it is

where society is always, always having a go at women. And within natureism, I'm sort of personally claiming that for myself and like I have the right to enjoy or be free and accept my body as a vessel for carrying me through some really troubled times and be at one with it really and just appreciate it. You know, one of the very, very positive things about natureism is I'm very aware of what's going on and I do this quite a lot. Like even, I don't know why I played my necklace, that sort of thing. And it was in doing that. when I was nude that I discovered a lump on my breast and luckily it was nothing sinister but maybe I wouldn't have noticed it was there if I was clothed the whole time so you know that's

again just another positive of knowing your body and yeah god I can talk a lot about this it is fascinating do you wear shoes on your walks yeah oh you do I'm mad okay yeah how naturalistic you go. Yeah. What does it feel like to be walking in the woods naked? I really like it. That sounds cool. Yeah.

And it's just nice having the elements, like the wind in your hair and if it's warm enough. And, you know, even if it's cold, you'll soon warm up if you're having a walk, you know. It's nice. Yeah. It's nice. And skinny dipping is the best thing,

or chunky dunking, whatever you want to look at it. Wait, wait, what was that? Chunky dinky dips Oh, I like it I don't know that Skinny dipping chunky dunking That's brilliant That's so nice

I'm going to call it that from now on I've never really good way to start though Chunky Yeah Have you? Yeah I did it accidentally in Costa Rica because I lost my bikini bottoms

in a wave Yeah I like skinny dipping That's chunky dunking That works for me I like it Can I, sorry pull this back from the elements and go to the complete opposite

it you went on Good Morning Britain naked. Yes. That was controversial. Yes. So that was pre 8am. Yes. So that's kind of a bit unprecedented, isn't it?

Yes. How was that? It was fine. Ed Balls asked me, do you feel a bit awkward being the only one nude? I don't think this bit was shot. And I'm like, well, I do now that you mentioned it. But, yeah, so there was no.

need for me to go on naked because they totally blurred me anyway. It was just this bobbing head. So it was their insistence that I was nude. It wasn't mine. But I suppose it sort of carries the point that I was there talking about nude sunbathing. The bloke who was my opposition. I forgot his name. Fair enough. Actually, he didn't really have a problem with it. He was just sort of there to kind of argue with me. Right. And then at the end he wanted to sell feeling like I'll see you let nature's play soon but it's about conversations isn't it and it's always more shocking than than what you actually think but how did you see any of the reaction public that oh it's horrendous yeah proper slated was it yeah yeah but

i've learned not to read the you know comments yeah especially online yeah yeah says more about them than it does me do you think with sunbathing naked your argument for that That was like, just crack on, go for it. Right? Crack on, sorry. Sorry. Yeah, as long as, you know, yeah. Yeah.

It's just going to, you're just sunbathing. If parents want to protect their children from nudity, whether or not you think that's a right thing to do in general, you know, for the good of the kid, if that's what they want, what would, what would you say to them? Keep walking. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, respectful nature. aren't going to go to like a kid's park and sunbathe you know and if you do happen upon it just don't make a fuss just keep walking yeah yeah I think it really helps to break down all these misconceptions of natureism as well

I've learnt so much me too I feel very yeah everyone the room is nodding as well like I feel very differently about it I think than when so what did you have in your head I think I conflated it a lot with nudism, exhibitionism, sex. Yeah, sorry to say.

As I did. As I did until I experienced the opposite. How do you feel about it now? I'm intrigued, probably not to the point where I'm going to give it a go. Never say never. But I'm intrigued and I think it sounds like a very lovely community. And I imagine that it's something that if you do,

it would feel really euphoric. Like the idea of going for a walk completely naked sounds very cool. I would never have the balls to do it. But it sounds really cool. Then you should probably try one of the ladies' only holidays. And we've had several, we've done three of them now. And each one we've done, there has been at least one new person that has never done natureism or considered it or anything.

And it's changed their lives as well. all the judgment goes, they witness this community, this sisterhood that is unlike any other sort of friendship that I've experienced because friendships run deeper but faster. I imagine. Yeah. You're really intimate, not in a sexual way, just in a... You're kind of vulnerable. You're nude, so you're showing your true authentic self without the garnishings of clothing.

So the friendships that you have are super genuine. Yeah, it's so intimate. I can't explain it, but yeah, it is really cool. I've loved this. I've loved this. I've love chatting to you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

I feel like we've got some homework to do. I've got leaflets for you as well. Oh, excellent. Thank you. Perfect. This is going to be good for us, I think. So how can we find out more about British Nutriism? So I've got a few websites to give you.

BN.org.uk is the main site, but forward slash women. And then you'll find all the sort of stuff that I do, the stories of other women. We've also got the podcast. So it's podfollow.com forward slash women in focus. And a new website, actually, which is just right to go live, is just women in natureism. dot UK excellent we're going to leave all the links in the show notes thank you so much

thank you so much for talking this been amazing thank you thank you too should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network