Should I Delete That? - What if we stopped hating our bodies?

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

We’ve downed tools - because it’s time to reflect on everything that we’ve learned and felt throughout our big body image series. Join Em and Al to discuss what we’ve learned through this series - from the history of diet culture to the way the diet landscape is shifting and morphing in front of our eyes. We chat about where we’re at with our own body image journeys, how we’re going to move forward from this series, and how we might be able to - as a society - fix our relationships with our bodies. Thank you to our brilliant listeners who sent us their voice notes for this episode - we couldn't feature all of them in this episode but we loved listening to them all. A special thanks to: Sophie, Jessica, Marsy, Hannah, Riss, Aimee, Eimear and Catherine from the IVF BFF PodcastIf you want to dig further into diet culture, self-acceptance and making peace with your body - Alex’s book You Are Not A Before Picture is available now. You can buy your copy here!If you would like to get in touch - you can email us on [e-mail] us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Dex RoyStudio Manager: Dex RoyTrailers: Sophie RichardsonVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Emma-Kirsty Fraser Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to the final episode in our big bumper series around body image. We've down tools, we've put our laptops, we've closed our laptops and Romi Adlib. We've spent the last month or so writing longer, longer, last three months probably, writing, researching and recording this series. And when it came to writing the last episode, neither of us really knew how to do it or how to do it justice anyway. I mean, it feels big and it feels important how we wrap the series up and what we leave you guys with. I think it's been, I don't know about you, I've definitely found this to be a time of real reflection. And I think I've learned a lot about myself, but also about.

you and it's been really interesting to me there have been a few points throughout this series throughout the episodes where you and I have had different opinions on stuff and that's because we've had different experiences there have been different things that have affected us in different ways and it's been very good for me to gain that perspective I think you're right and actually like a lot of the a lot of the things you said about your own perspective and your own experiences have surprised me just because they are so different from mine but I think that's a great example because that's how it's going to be for everyone listening to this. Everyone's going to have their completely individual perspective and, yeah, experiences

of diet culture and body image. We said it in one of those episodes, like, we're not expecting every single person to have been whacked by every single branch of this tree. Like, this is a, like, rogue out got me in the eye every now and then situation. You know, like, yes, we have overwhelmingly been affected by it, overshadowed by it. whatever like it has been a big part of our lives but it's not been and you know I think we live in a bit of a bubble sometimes and obviously you know your recovery has been such a huge part of your life that when we talk about this stuff we do it in a very specific way but it's actually for most people kind of background noise and I think that's the really interesting thing about this and

that's been what's been really interesting for me has been how much I've learned about How much if it's been subliminal? Yeah. Okay, I have a question for you. Have you found that that background noise, bringing it out of the background and into the foreground, as we've done with this series, where we've literally unpicked and unpacked everything around body image.

Have you found it a bit bleak or a bit depressing? No, I've not. I actually think womanhood, is quite depressing. When I look at the world as it is and the world that I want for my daughters, I am frustrated time and time again. Frustrated is not even close to a big enough word.

I am furious by the consistent injustices that face women, the entire way that the patriarchy has set us up to fail. frustrated at every turn about the pain gap, the data gap, the health gap, the ways in which we've been marketed to, exploited, taken advantage of. I get annoyed all the time about all these things. I think for me what this series has done has illuminated quite how involved misogyny is in this quite how calculated it's been, quite how manipulative it is. So I don't find it bleak because bleak kind of implies hopelessness for me. Bleak kind of implies terminal. I don't

think it's that. I think it's made me angry, but I don't feel like a sense of, oh, forever more. Do you? I agree. I haven't found a bleak. I've actually, hear me out here. I've actually found it. reassuring and comforting to know that there is a million, I was going to say there's a reason, there are a million reasons that we feel the way we do about our bodies and it is nothing to do with us. None of it is anything to do with us. It's not our fault. It's generated. It's manufactured. It's so generated and in so many different ways it's all, and it's all so fractured and it's all so ubiquitous but it comes together in such a big big intense way so i've actually felt a real peace and sense of comfort at seeing it all and knowing that this is why this is exactly

why the second thing that i found that i didn't really expect to feel after the series is I feel more connected, having gone through in intense detail, all of these things that we've been subjected to, I feel more connected to other women than I think I ever have done. We all have this shared, and I'm going to say trauma, because I think it is, a lot of, a lot of this is what we're talking about, it is, it's traumatic. And I think I, I feel connected to other women in a way that I, in a deeper way than I had previously. Does that make sense? Yeah, 100% that makes sense.

It's like a collective pain or a collective experience. Right. I want to go back, though, to the fact that we had different experiences and you said there were elements of my, like, of what I said that surprised you. What were they? I was really surprised to hear you talk about the effect that the little glimmers of body positivity, hope, like the effect that those things had on you

like hearing Megan Trainor what were the lyrics what's that song that you are obsessed I mean do you want all the lyrics not really do you want to top do you want a rendition a little acoustic a little acopella

go on then no I think the one I referred to was no stick figure silicon Barbie doll that's it yeah if that's what you're into then go ahead and move along yeah

yeah I was surprised that things like that cut through not surprised because I knew what you were going through because I didn't but for me they just never cut things like that never cut through I think I've always felt this and I think I've been very lucky because I haven't had an eating disorder and I so I've come at this with a completely different perspective to you but I think for me feeling like this is a social justice issue

has been very helpful for all of it for my whole life seeing its roots solidifying its roots in misogyny in sexism recognizing that body positivity self-love self-acceptance body acceptance body confidence whatever you want to call it is feminist that excites me and that's always given me a sense of purpose with it and it gives me a sense of anger with it where I just think no like I'm not having it I'm not having it I'm not going to be small because you want me to be small I'm not going to be whatever because you maybe it's like a rebellion thing I don't know I think so yeah yeah I think that speaks to like your maybe more rebellious nature yeah look at me I know I'm so scared of authority at school

but I think yeah it doesn't yeah yeah yeah Yes, yes, it does speak. Or at least your, I guess, ability to, like, challenge the status quo, something that I don't think I'm very good at. None of these things even registered for me until someone physically pointed them out for me, which is what happened when I went to therapy. And I distinctly remember the therapist

talking about diet culture. And I was like, that sounds like bullshit. You guys will make a term for anything. I know, ridiculous. I was like, rubbish, you just want me to eat, and I don't want to, but it's so deceived. But yeah, I had to have someone, like, in my face telling me that. I was never going to pick up on more subliminal stuff because it's just too far gone. But I think that comes from my position of privilege there, because I wasn't as deep into it

as you were, and I wasn't as hurt by it as you were. Can I say something that is perhaps controversial, and you might not even want me to say this? Oh, yeah. Having heard what you experienced in your wellness area, in the wellness era, in the wellness era, it sounds like, I mean, you say I didn't have an eating disorder, but it sounds like some of it was verging on orthorexia. Yeah, 100%. Which is something we haven't, which is something we didn't quite cover. No. I think we mentioned it with Tally, Rye.

Yeah. Orthorexia is an obsession. It's got the official definition, actually. Thank you. Orthorexia nervosa is an eating disorder character. by an excessive preoccupation with eating healthy food. Yeah, I mean, I'll take a late diagnosis for a condition that I'm now healed from. But yeah, you'd probably not be, you'd not be far off the mark with that assessment.

I mean, we touched on it in that episode. But I think the exercise, the marathons, I know we joke about, like, how much I need it. but I think that's been, that has literally been how, because I've never had therapy for anybody stuff ever. But I think that's been my therapy. I think that's how I have. And I think I'm pretty healed, which is weird. I think you are.

Yeah, I think so. The idea of like not, I just don't have it in me. I just don't, and I know where I was then. I have that point of where I was. I remember too, you know, like how I felt. I remember what mattered. I remember, and I think I have just on balance changed my priorities. Maybe it's that I just, I don't know, love being strong and love being really fit and running and whatever.

Or I love being with my kids or with my friends or I love my job. I think it's important to stay at that time also. I didn't really have much purpose. Like I didn't have, I was working, I mean, like, you know, my job was fine. but I was working in a job that I didn't hugely care for. I didn't have this huge directional, aspirational career ahead of me. Like I didn't know what I wanted to do specifically. And I think it just became my focus because there wasn't other stuff.

Yeah. This is a way to channel your focus. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, I mean, it was great. Like it's tragic. It's not tragic, but it's, yeah, I don't know. It's sad.

It's really sad. But I'm so, like, happy now. And I'm really fucking grateful that I just got on top of that before I had kids. Because the thing that I've taken away, the biggest thing I've taken away from this series was episode two. But we did with, and talking to Molly Forbes and talking about the pressure. We've always thought it comes from our moms. We've always blamed our moms for this shit.

we've always blamed other women for this shit and hearing like how big a part dad's playing this extended family playing this that has been such a big thing for me and yeah I think I've I've learned a lot in terms of how I would like to parent going forwards from doing this series as well which has been really cool Molly was amazing to talk to amazing her advice was invaluable I keep going back and forth about whether I am healed or not. Yeah. And I do think I've got a lot of, there's a lot of like leftovers.

Of all the years of eating disorders, which I don't think is an unusual thing. And it's also, what makes me think that it's like, for lack of a better way to put it, like not that bad, is that it doesn't bother me anymore. None of that stuff really bothers me anymore. By that, by what do you mean? mean? Like how you look or what you're eating? Both. Both. They don't, I don't live. I don't, I don't, I feel like I'm not plagued by that stuff anymore the way that I once was. I know it's still there to an

extent. I know some of it's still there. It's like a little bit of a background noise. But it's, it's not enough to bother me. It's not, it's not enough to impact how I live my life. I think that's important and I actually I think a long time ago I made peace with the fact that I probably would never be fully recovered and when I did that I stopped assessing whether I was fully recovered which I don't think has been a bad thing actually because they say with alcoholics and we've talked about this in other episodes you know like not this series but just we've had this conversation before with they talk about like addiction and from friends of mine who are addicts it is recommended as part of the 12 steps and it's it's sort of common practice that

you talk about your alcoholism for example in the present tense yeah i am an alcoholic which doesn't mean you're drinking but it means you have an you know an addictive relationship with alcohol and i think the kind of and i'm not like i'm stupid i don't know but i think that means that it's an acknowledgement that the thing doesn't go away. You can't heal that part of yourself. You just learn to live with it. Do you feel like that's the case for you? Well, I think with alcoholism specifically as well, it's a way to hold yourself accountable and to understand that like you can't let things slip and slide because you'll go back into it. I don't feel like that. I don't feel like I can ever go back into my eating disorders. Truly, I don't, I think even if I

tried really hard. I don't think it's possible for me to slip back into them. Because of all the therapy. I haven't it? Yeah, well, yes, definitely. And I also don't have the desire. That desire to be thin was like the strongest, most overwhelming, like feeling and emotion and desire that I held for so long. And it just doesn't even factor anymore. And I can't make that desire bigger. Where did it go? Has it been swapped? Do you have another desire?

Oh, okay, maybe. Yes, but I feel like it was filled with all the things that I missed out on when it was so prevalent because I, like, everything suffered, like my relationships across the board suffered with my family, my friends, my romantic relationships. I just didn't care. My career, everything. I just didn't care enough. I didn't care as much as I cared about being thin

about anything else. So all of that stuff just felt insignificant to, I need to be thin. And that's going to take priority over everything and I'm going to do everything in my power to be that and to the detriment of everything else. And that, I don't care. I just didn't care enough.

It was just the main thing in my head. I think that's probably slowly being replaced by all of that other stuff. By your life again? By my life. But yeah, yeah, yeah. By creating a much more like fulfilling, meaningful life that doesn't revolve around what's the number on the scale saying?

I think there's something to be said for that in terms of, again, parenting future generation, whether you're parenting yourself, you know, healing your inner child stuff or if you're literally raising children. I don't think we were given when we were younger this big life aspiration. I think so much of what we were sold as children and as young women was so closely tied with our appearance because that was our currency and our value and that, whether it was from the male gaze, from our peers, from wanting to be attractive sexually to people around us, whether it was wanting to be beautiful or pretty

because that did matter and as long as pretty and beautiful are compliments and not that they shouldn't be I don't want to like take that away but there's so much of the language that we use for young girls that does centre their appearance

in everything and I think that can't be underestimated because the dreams that a lot of us create for ourselves aren't this full life They're not this. When you think about your future, it's not like, I want to have a core group of incredible friends. I want to have a family that I love. I want to be happy. I want to feel peaceful. I want to read books. I want to have slow Sundays. I would like to hang out with a dog. I would like, we don't prioritize finding. And I think as women, you don't at no point in your life. And we can talk about this in the context of motherhood, in careers, in friendships, in relationships, in relations. There's so many times you watch women put themselves second because we've always been taught to do that. That's exactly how the patriarchy works.

It keeps women second. And I think because of that, we don't have these big dreams for ourselves beyond succeeding societely. And the biggest marker for success was attractiveness, which is synonymous with thinness. So I think it's really as maybe it's because we're now in our future. 30s that it's like we know what a sacrifice it would be to go back to those ways of life. I know that I wouldn't have the energy to hang out with my kids and I wouldn't have the joy of cooking with them or cooking for them. I wouldn't be out with my friends. I wouldn't.

There's so much I'd have to sacrifice. Yeah. But you know that as an adult because you've got this life. But you don't know that as a child. And I think you also have the experience of knowing that it's arbitrary. And fleeting. It's arbitrary and fleeting. I'm careful to say that because it's not arbitrary in a sense that we know that thinness holds higher social status

and it is a currency, social currency. But from a very basic human standpoint, like from a biological standpoint, it's not fulfilling to us to look a certain way. But we again have that perspective. because we can look back that's the thing and because we've

in some in different ways kind of achieved it like I achieved what I believe to be my goal weight achieved it over and over again because the goal weight kept shifting to lower and lower because I was like oh I'm not happy yet

so it must mean that my goal weight is lower than I thought it was so I'll go down to there and then I'll go down to there and hang on I'm still chasing this happiness and I'm getting thinner and thinner and thinner and not ending up with this like incredible life, where's the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? I'm not finding it.

And I think that's what you learn, yeah, through experience, you learn that actually the things that we're chasing, the things that we are like primed to chase at any and all costs, those things are, they are just, they're arbitrary and they're taking us away from the real meaningful things in our life that would build lives that make us genuine. content. And I think you're not as happy. If I actually think back to that period that we talked about, so for me it was like 2015-ish, I was 21. And like, oh my God, sometimes now, you know, like I'm going to be 31 this year, having just had my second baby, I can look back at my body and be like, whoa, you look good. And you can compare yourself and you think, God, I wish I

look like that. I'm going to get back to that. And you can have those thoughts, right? Because I think that's really normal, that you have that, like, I, I should look like I did then. Yeah. Two things. One, like, children, two, time, three, gravity. But mostly, overwhelmingly, I was so fucking unhappy. I can't think of a time in my life when I was more unhappy than I was at 2015. I had undiagnosed anxiety.

I would, which I subsequently dealt with. But I, oh my God, like, I would come home from work fucking starve. And I remember sometimes I'd come back and I'd be so anxious. I remember one day literally being, coming home from work and seeing that my flat had burned down and it hadn't, but I could, I walked in and all the ceiling was black and everything was whatever. And I like, saw it had happened. And that was my state of such heightened anxiety that I could like, I was living like

that all the time and I couldn't walk, Bua, I couldn't walk my door. her my dog since I was 21 and I was so anxious to walk her because I was so convinced that she would be eaten by another dog or whatever and my brother had an accident a few years later and my anxiety got worse then because I'd always been anxious that someone that I loved would have an accident and then he did and then I was like oh my God I'm a prophet I knew it but my anxiety for those few years was absolutely appalling. So there is no way that those habits were healthy. There is no, there's absolutely no way.

And yeah, I can look back and be like, oh my God, I went to so many parties and hung out with my friends. I was self-destructing. Like, I was in such a toxic cycle there. I was so unhappy. I was so anxious. I was lonely. I had no direction.

But it's so amazing that you can look back at photos and be like, wow, what a fiddly. Wow. Right. All of that is erased. All of it is erased. All of the bad stuff is erased. And I have to think to that time. I have to really think to it and think, I was miserable. And yeah, it probably wasn't the food that was making me miserable, but it wasn't making me happy.

It wasn't allowing my life to get any bigger. If anything, it was making my life smaller. Right. And that's such a thing we don't do when we compare ourselves, even comparing ourselves to our friends or to other people, to celebrities, to whoever it is. you write their whole story you write your own story you write it to mean exactly what you need

we use other people past versions of ourselves future versions of ourselves as a stick to beat ourselves with and it's so toxic it's nuts I would do it to my friends I would like oh my God

nothing bad could happen in their lives because look at their bodies like they must have the best life in the whole world because look at them and if they told me they had problems I'd be like if you don't really

because you're thin, I would have no empathy because of it. It didn't make me a nice person. Again, imagine explaining this to an alien. I know. Lans on Earth and it's like, okay, there's all of these, we're all things called humans. And if you are, if you carry less fat on your body and if you look like this,

then you are considered one of the elite type of humans. But also, we are revered and... But not treated kindly. I don't think we're very kind to very beautiful. people. I think societyly we're quite horrible to very beautiful people because we want them. We want to believe that they're bad. We want to believe that it's not all that good. Like, remembering the rhetoric of the naughties, we didn't celebrate these beautiful women. Oh, we're waiting for them to trip. We're waiting for them to trip for the mask to slip. We're

desperate for the mask to slip. We're not like, oh my God, clap, clap, clap, you're so beautiful. It's like, oh, she's so beautiful. And we're just desperately waiting for her flaws to be shown. And reveling in any opportunity to back it down. Yeah, yeah. That's the other thing for this is that version of me, 2021, sorry, 2015, whatever. She wasn't kind. I didn't have the capacity to be kind. And I know, you know, I know people don't disagree with the,

or people take issue sometimes with the hurt people, hurt people thing. Because it's not the case that every hurt person hurts someone else. Yeah. But by and large, if you are hurt, you will probably hurt. because it's all you know how to do. And it's a way of temporarily alleviating your own hurt. Then projecting, because that's what we do. Going back to the fact that beautiful people, you know, also that's like in some ways,

their lives are much easier. But in other ways, there's like people clawing at the sides to wait for some kind of downfall. And I think that that points, like, is there any better way to show that we just cannot win, no matter what we cannot win? And I think this has been a through line as well throughout the entire series.

That women can't win. That women can't win. It is not possible. It is not possible. You tell me, describe to me, a woman that is allowed to win. I know. It's not possible. Sometimes I think Adele might have.

have won. In what way? She's quit. She said a month ago that she's quitting music and she's done and she's just going now. And I think maybe that's a woman, I mean, I'm a massive fan who's learned to prioritize her piece and love for you, Adel. Love that for her. But then she's had so much shit.

That's the thing. She's had so much shit. Like, you know, she, again, and we didn't even really talk about her during the series, but this is like another example of she like she was the poster girl for body diversity and the media and like she was celebrated for you know for representing people who hadn't been represented before and then she loses weight and then everyone hates her yeah and that's it it's impossible it is and I think that speaks to and we've mentioned a couple of times doing this that we wanted to do maybe a series with looking at women in the media

and looking at the way that we speak about and treat women in the media. And I think a really big thing for us, a question that keeps coming up time and time again, it's like, are they a victim or are they a perpetrator? One family we've brought up a lot, has been the Kardashians. To your mind, where are they?

You know what we're going to say? Both. Both. Not allowed that. If you've got to come full down on one side more than the other, If we're going to the core of the issue, to the crux of it, then they're victims. Because diet culture and body standards existed long before they did. However, they've had a huge part to play in not just perpetuating them, but creating new ones

and creating like arguably new, like more unattainable ones than there were previously, which is why we saw a huge rise in the BBL surgery, which is one of the most like, dangerous surgeries and I think it's also the most fatal plastic surgery and we saw this like crazy rise in it you know like because of the Kardashians I think we can directly link that so that's why I that's why I'm going to say they're both because like ultimately ultimately they were not they were just victims however we can't discount them as perpetrators either is that an annoying answer yeah no it's not an annoying answer. It's important because they're also not going anywhere. And I think

that's, you know, when you do this stuff, when we have these conversations, how many of the times have we spoken to people during this? And it's gone in an ideal world, in an ideal world, we aren't going to see an ideal world in our lifetime. I don't think our children will see an ideal world in theirs. I don't think an ideal world exists. Of course, an ideal world doesn't fucking exist. It's ridiculous. It's famine all over the place and natural disasters. There's no ideal world. This is like, this is what we've got. So within the, within that, within these toxic perpetuating circles, we have to learn how to live and be happy. We have to work out. Okay, we have to work out actually in a world where we accept that women can't win. The Kardashians

can't win. You can't win. I can't win. We can't win how we can get as close to winning as possible. Like, if we accept there's no gold cup, then, like, how are we getting on the podium? You know what I mean? And I think, I actually think that this is where I land, right, is that we've been through it. We can't win. No matter what way we turn, no matter what we do, it's not possible. So, how about we let it go? We don't try and win. We down tools and say, we're done. And actually, I'm just going to be who I am, who I like to be, who I'm genetically predisposed to be along with what else I want to make of, you know, what else I want to do with my life and how I look as well. And we just relieve ourselves of the pressure to look a certain way,

to be a certain way and just be who we are. Because yes, we will get shit for who we are for what we look like. But that's going to happen anyway. Is it not better that it happens in our own way? I think by and large, the shit, and again, I'm speaking from a very privileged position and I'm not speaking to evirc instances of fat phobia. But I think we will always be our own worst critics.

And I think we will always be the ones that stop us from winning, ultimately. The ones that really, the ones that will never allow us, we will never allow ourselves to feel fully satisfied. And I just think that's capitalism. Like we live in a world where we are always being sold the next best thing. We exist on social media,

which is extraordinary and it's unprecedented. And we've got no idea the effect that this will be having on our mind long term. But we have always strived for more. And because of that, we are probably our big, biggest restraints, we're probably our toughest critics, we're probably the biggest barrier that we have. And that's, again, you know, not looking at all the societal stuff, but it's looking to what we've harbored from whichever part of the episodes, whichever part of this

series has resonated with you, there will have been parts that you've carried and insecurities that you can't let go of and ways that you feel that follow you. and that you can't put down for whatever reason. And I think that's for me where all the empowerment lies to see how often I'm in my own way with stuff. Because when I think about the people in my life, I think I said this to Boy Alex yesterday about you. I said, I was like, I can't, I don't know what Alex's body is like.

There would have been a time when we'd been, like 10 years ago, when we'd have been friends, when I'd have been in a space where I'd have been body checking you all the time and I'd have known what you ate and I'd have been aware of this and I'd have been aware of that I thought about yesterday I was like

I don't think I could tell you any of my friend's sizes I don't think I notice that stuff anymore but I've had to like put it down like I've had to put it down I've had to like you are not my business

your body is not my business what you look like has nothing to do with what I look like you being beautiful doesn't make me less beautiful but mean girlsy but, like, it doesn't deter, detract, it doesn't take away from me. But that's the toxic misogyny, that's this scarcity complex that we have with women

that there's only so much beauty, success, money, thinness that any one of us can have. And we want to take it from other people and give it to ourselves, but it doesn't work like that. And that's quite empowering to realise that and to learn it. I think it's interesting that we come to this conclusion. about it being a personal like an individual thing because ultimately everything we've explored it's all external and we can't control any of it we haven't been able to we won't be able to control what diet culture is not going to end with this series like it's it's well then what was it all for I know right we're in it for the long haul we can't control any of it

but what we can control is us, ourselves, literally the only person you can control is yourself. That doesn't make sense. Sometimes I'm uncontrollable. I'm a wild card. But we can give ourselves permission to keep the space, keep the space inside our head a sanctuary and keep it free from diet culture noise

and free from criticism and self-loathing. and just allow ourselves to be and give us grace and space to exist exactly as we are and be, yeah, a haven away from all of the other pressures. And I think that's what this has to come down to because, like you said, we can't do anything with this series to stop dire culture. We can't, it's not within our hands, it's not within our power.

But what's within all of our power is to address the way that we, look at ourselves, see ourselves, and, like, crucially talk to ourselves. It's so, it's, some of the things we say to ourselves is so disgusting. And I think it's probably an overused bit of advice, but it's while I come back to you time and time again, that if you can catch yourself while you're having a negative self-thought and ask yourself, like, would I say this to someone else that I loved? Would I say this to my sister?

I'm a one-woman, I'm a friend. And if the answer's no, then why on earth do you deserve it? I think for me one of the most powerful lessons, one of the most powerful things, one of the most powerful words I've ever learned, which probably made me a sanctimonious little shit of a child, was why. And it's something... Oh, I bet you were so annoying. You have no idea. Oh.

Curiosity knows no bounds. Your poor parents. I know. I think going back to this being a social justice issue for me and how I've always seen it. or always felt that that's what it is. And the thing that gives me the most empowerment as an adult is healing myself has come from being angry at the system that hurt me and hurts other women. And why has been such a powerful question for me at every point.

It's like if I catch myself thinking something about myself, I push myself to the end every time with what. whys until they've run out of answers. It's like, oh, I should be in this jeans a size small. Why? Well, because I think I'll look better. Why? Well, because the world likes thinner people.

Okay, yeah, but why? Well, they like women being smaller because it's kind of easier to control them when they're smaller. Okay, well, why? Well, it's kind of, it's easier for men if they're controlling women because then they can stay on top. Okay, well, why? Because we live in a patriarchal.

Well, like, no. Like the minute you become unsatisfied, when you get further down your why and you become unsatisfied with one of the answers. It's like, well, it's not good enough then. And you can do that down a million avenues. And you can push yourself until you get to your why. But I don't think when it comes to this stuff, you'll ever get to a satisfactory answer.

I don't think if you push the whys back, you'll get to a point when you think, you know, that's true. I should be in thinner jeans, smaller jeans, whatever it is. And okay, yeah, maybe eventually, but that's a good theory. If the Y works, then you know you're on to something. But generally when you push them, the wise, you'll find that the reasoning is stupid and controlling and misogynistic in nature.

And then you just think, well, fuck that. I'm fine. Literally, fuck that. God, my head is spinning with wise. I ask like all the time. No, but it's such a good practice. It is such a good practice. Because as well, like as humans, we are so silly and stupid in general.

And we just go along with what we're told. We don't question things. We're not good at critical thinking. No, challenging the societal norms. No, terrible at it. And I do think the practice of why is incredibly important, especially when it comes to this stuff. A hundred percent. Because you're right, those whys are never going to, I don't believe anyway that when it comes to body image, any of the why is ever going to lead you to, oh, well, because being smaller leads me to feeling more content and having a happy and more fulfilled life and, you know, fulfilling my human needs and connections.

Like that's just never going to happen. But you might get there, but you'll get there via the fact that it's a patriarchal thing and someone wants you spending money and someone's trying to sell you this. And it's in their best interest that you're. And that's it. So much of this is marketing. And I really hope that we've stressed that. Like I think one of the biggest things that I try and remember all the time with this sort of thing is the 10,000 step Fitbit thing.

Right? We got told we had to do 10,000 steps a day at the same time that the Fitbit watch launched. don't underestimate that and don't feel stupid for being sucked into marketing don't feel stupid for being sucked into PR this is psychology this is why people go and do degrees masters PhDs this is why this is a multi-million billion dollar trillion trillion industry because they can count on marketing as working and marketing is manipulative. And so much of what we're sold is just bollocks. And the why theory applies to all of that as well. Why do I need this? And again, it's a stupid theory for when I'm running a marathon. Why am I doing this? You've just ruined my life. Everything I do, I'm going to be like,

but why? Why am I doing it? But if you can satisfy yourself with the answer, then that's fine. I won't be able to. Well, no, I think you're a kind of unique case for this. Generally speaking, if the answer satisfies you, then go ahead with the original thought. But it is quite unsatisfactory to get to the end of all of that and realise that you are just the victim of sexism and marketing and manipulation and capitalism. And what you're doing is playing something for someone else. 100% and not for you. Yeah. And if it's all about, if it's like, well, I'll do all of that or I'll eat a biscuit. I'm going to fuck it, I'm just going to eat the biscuit, you know. And that's quite nice. It's so nice. There's some peace in that. If you want to eat the biscuit, eat the

Biscuit. Biscuit, Jesus. And not like the spelt flour, fucking ginger, sesame bollock shit that I used to take with my cereal with the apple juice.

No. Unless you prefer those and in which case, go for it. No one prefers those. I genuinely know. It's like if you've got a chocolate chip cookie,

pan of racon, pan of chocolate. Who's ordering the pan of raisin? You probably. Me. Weirdo. I don't like panof chocolate. What's not to like? Because the chocolate's dark

because it can't be milk because if it was milk it would burn in the oven because of the fat content is too high so it has to be dark chocolate but I don't like dark chocolate and I like raisin

yes my whole theory is gone then but I've always thought I'd always thought pan and raisin and I was like that's just diet culture

that shit no one wants that no I love them they've got like creme on glaze inside please step away English out

come on remember the crowd what's cremonglis you know like English cream Yeah For fox they just say English cream No that's what's called right

Cremongma whatever Look I feel like we've in some way Kind of been around the houses With all of this conclusion But that's because I don't think There is a neat conclusion to all of this Of course it's not

And I don't think there even is a conclusion Because it's too big And it's too current And it's ongoing But I think what we would really love For you to take away from this Is increased self-compassion and being kinder to yourself yeah and awareness and I just like understanding that none of this

none of this was your fault it's not it's not your fault that you feel like this way about your body it's not your fault if you've dedicated your entire life to being thin and you're suddenly thinking oh fuck what was that for it's not your fault and it's not a waste either but if we can address it as soon as possible and do that all with like a huge dollop of self-com compassion because only good things ever come from being kind, both to others and ourselves. Isn't that true, though? So true. And fuck diet culture.

I'd say. And I think we hope, and we'd like to do more of this in the future, but we hope for this one specifically, it goes away to giving you the why and helping you maybe as you try and forgive yourself, your mom, the producers of whatever, the journalists that wrote, whatever it is, as you try and heal from this, from all of it, or find your way through it, or whatever it is, we hope that it's given you a perspective or at least some understanding as to why you feel the way that you do. And I think that is a really important thing. This hasn't all happened by accident. This has been agendered. And I think something we wanted to end on was,

something genuinely positive from our wonderful community because some of you might have just found us now for this series but we've been making this podcast now for three years in that time we have been lucky enough to create an incredible community and we wanted this series to finish with you. We wanted to wrap up by giving you the microphone and getting you to share with us your best body image advice so that everyone listening, us included, can have that to take away from the series. Without further ado, here's what you had to say to each other. The best piece of advice anyone's ever given me in regards to body image is your weight is the least important thing about you and the least interesting. When I was in the grips of disordered eating,

over-exercising somebody that was my grandmother's age sat me down and said you can use your body for good now to make your life at my age better or you can attack your body now and ensure you never get to my age and that hit me like a brick and since then it's really changed how I view exercise and the joy of being able to exercise the benefits it gives me outside of weight or weight loss or how I look and now instead of training to fit into a smaller size, I train to feel strong and for my old lady body so that when I am her age, I can look back on what I do now and be proud of it.

One thing I would say to anybody who is struggling with body image is your body exists to keep you safe. It does not exist to be aesthetic. Please, please, please do not listen to anybody who ever comments on your weight, no matter what way they do it please don't let the snowball into something deep. That person has no

idea what you're coming from and what you're going to. Your body's another business and they're not your people. I think my favourite piece of advice is that your body is the least interesting part of you and it's a home

like your home you've got to take care of the important bits the foundations. My favourite little thing with the home analogy is that but you get to dress it exactly how you want to and wear the fanciest clothes that make you feel good because looking great has got nothing to do with size, really. Like if you think about the people that you admire,

it's usually because they're so confident and they're just living for themselves. And life's so fucking short, isn't it? Who wants to get to the deathbed and think, oh god i'm so glad i wasted all that time tearing this wonderful body apart that kept me alive all these years someone once told me that instead of just trying to lift you your body aesthetically to just be grateful for what your body can do and for me with chronic illnesses that doesn't just mean being grateful for being able to walk a really long way or run a marathon or anything

like that but just being grateful that i can breathe and that i can see and the things that i can do even on the worst days. We shouldn't be looking at women's bodies from the outside and obsessing over appearances when our real power lies within. Our bodies can create and sustain life, endure monthly cycles, God help us, whilst women's health remains underfunded and misunderstood.

Heroes for that. I think we trace these unattainable ideals and standards that are constantly in flux, so from one moment to the next, society tells us to be curvy, but don't eat too much fatty, then thin, but not too thin. Oh my God, what's wrong with you? are you? Are you on Zempe? I would tell my younger self to reject the media's superficial standards,

celebrate your strength and God damn it, your uniqueness. Why look like anyone else when you can look like you? That's your superpower. And you are beautiful. Hi, my name is Catherine and I would love to talk about body image throughout trying to conceive and fertility treatment. Since trying to have a baby for the last almost two years, my body image and relationship with my body has massively improved. It's like I focus on it trying to do something functional and for the first time I'm willing myself to work with it and not against it. Cut to recently when mine and my husband's first round of IVF failed and it's a different weird relationship with my body. A lot of blame and shame and not feeling it's good enough or done a good enough job. I'm still trying to fuel it and look

after it the best I can, i.e. eat a nutrient-dense diet, hydrate, get fresh air and exercise, even when I just want to stay in bed and hide away, as I'm still aware I need it to do a job as we gear up for our second round of treatment. I suppose my biggest takeaway from this experience would be your body is where you live. It's your home. Look after it the way you would, your house if you had a dodgy roof or a burst pipe. You only get one, so care about it and invest in it and hope it gives you the safe home that you need in return. The one piece of body image advice I would give my younger self is to literally just not consume that much content about it. I literally think I became addicted to just reading about

it, about bodies, talking about other people's bodies, talking about my body, looking at my body every single day. And I think to just know that it's really not that important what you look like and having that sense of body neutrality is sometimes easier and better and more sustainable to achieve than body positivity at all times and the best advice I ever got about my body image was kind of an anecdote for my friend that does rugby she's a female player that does rugby and she says that rugby players are of different shapes and sizes and that is like a leverage to them that's their advantage that if you're really big then you can bulldoze but if you're really small you can kind of tackle below and that kind of just shows that all buddies have their own

positives you know it's not just one fit for everybody i am a woman who has always been voluptuous i can't say without a glass wine i've always struggled with my weight i am big i am very much the shape of my grandmother was and i have been permanently on a diet and probably eat healthier the majority of my stick-thin friends but the joy of reaching your 50s and perimenopause is you start learning to say, duck it. I don't care how people judge me. I am who I am. I am friendly and I am very loyal, but if you judge me by my size, you're not worth my time. And that is the best thing about hitting your 50s. After losing people very close to me, I never look at their photos and think, oh, God, look at the state of them.

Oh, why didn't they lose weight? Why didn't they do this? Blah, blah, blah. I'm looking at them thinking how much I love and miss them. And I have to remind myself that people, hopefully, are going to think that when I'm not here anymore. And life is more about memories than image. Guys, thank you so much for listening to this series. I can't believe it's come to an end.

If you hadn't worked it out, this has been my maternity leave. So from next week, normal service will resume. I'll be back at work. We will be in your ears on Monday with interviews as normal. Should I delete that as part of the ACAS creator network?