Should I Delete That? - What is a Saturn return? with Caggie Dunlop

Episode Date: May 14, 2023

On this episode, Alex and Em are joined by Caggie Dunlop, who you may recognise from the earliest iteration of Made in Chelsea. Caggie's late twenties were a mixture of confusion and instability, seeing her friends settling down and having babies just as her life seemed to be at its most turbulent. Then she was introduced to the astrological concept of Saturn returns, which made her understand she wasn't alone in her discomfort. Now, with a podcast and a new book dedicated to Saturn returning, Caggie shares her story and this concept with Alex and Em. And it does happen to send Em into a bit of a spin...Find out more about Caggie and her work at https://caggiedunlop.komi.io/Follow Caggie on Instagram @caggiesworldFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And I found that period of life very isolating, quite lonely. Everyone was sent the handbook of life, and mine was lost in the coast. Hello, hello. Such losers. Hello. How you doing? I'm good, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good, I've got so much to tell you. What?

It starts and ends with the fact that I went to my street party. Oh, gosh. It's bads and awkwards everywhere. Oh my God, all three from the street party? I think so. The awkward, awkward, it's not mine, I'm stealing this from someone else. I mentioned that I was invited to two street parties, my own and one in Crystal Palace. Okay.

I decided last minute, I didn't want to go to the Crystal Palace one. I was going to go to my own. I was going to be a brave girl. Yeah. Good on you. Thank you so much. And my friend, who lives in Crystal Palace, I got two friends that live in Crystal Palace.

One of them, it was her street party. My other friend, it wasn't her street party. But she had also been invited to the street party. So she went to the street party. She got there. They said, where do you live? She said, not here. And they said, oh, you can't come in.

No, you're kidding me. And everybody on the street had name tags. No. So they were asked to leave the street and go back to their own sad street, which wasn't having a party. That's savage. Savage. Oh my God. Savage.

That's such stupid, like, that's such petty gatekeeping. I know. There's a bouncy castle and everything. And her little toddler saw the bouncy castle. I was thinking more for her, but her toddler. Yeah, broke it up. I think they let the toddler in. And I think the parents were allowed them to go and see the toddler.

But that's my idea of horrendous thought. goodness, I'm so pleased that that wasn't me. Thank God you didn't go. My God I didn't go. Is that your good? Yeah, my goodness that I didn't go to Crystal Palace. Yeah, well, I'm there. My goodness, something back and I've happened and it didn't.

Yeah, exactly. I'm going to drip feed you anecdotes from the street party, whilst you please tell me something good, bad or awkward. I didn't get to go through all my awkwards from January last week. So, um, okay. I, oh, so. I did this, I did this, like, stupid little reel, right? And it's of, I think, is it Nickelback?

I'm going to show you. Was it Nickelback? Right, well, Daisy Mead, Twitch for one of your reels was stupid and little. So it's nickel, I'm going to play it, right? Love this song. Right, and I'm going to show you, right? So it's the Nickelback lead singer, whatever, at the start of this video. I'm totally going to listen to Nickelback the whole way home.

holding up a photograph as he says look at this photograph right i was like oh my god i'm going to do this with betty right i'm going to write nobody colon you know like the cool kids do me away from my dog for more than an hour right watch it i will give this to amy to put on the instagram but i put it up and i think It was up for, I think it was up for like 10 minutes and I don't think it had like 40, like. And I did that and I'm embarrassed and ashamed, but also you guys are my people and you know what? I'm like, I deleted it. Oh no. Daisy, you saw it.

I'm surprised. It was got, I was funny. I thought it was so funny. Did you like it though? I don't know. Probably not. Only 40 people. That is hilarious.

How embarrassing. Mortified. Isn't it such a camel and you think you're being really? really funny. Like I did it with my real last night where I thought I was quite funny and then I uploaded it and it just it did all right. Which one? The one where I was like all my ugly faces when I was exercising. Oh no I haven't seen it. I'm so shit. It was a bit funny. In my head I was like this is hilarious because Alex watched it and he was like ha ha ha. I was like thank you because I'd have been devastated if he hadn't done that. And then I

uploaded it and I was like oh. I haven't seen a lot actually. It's so cringe. But on TikTok you could upload this stupid shit and it goes so well. I know. I know. It goes so well. I'm trying to be, I'm trying to channel my TikTok. Anyway, back to the street party. Back to the street party. So I went sorry about, sorry for your loss. Don't judge me guys. I'm being pathetic.

I'm deleting stuff because it doesn't have enough legs. I'm, I get it. It's a modern world. It's cruel. You got to, you know, you got to, you do what you do. Do what you do to survive. Yeah, so, um, my awkward is the fact that, I mean, it couldn't have been worse, right? I went.

Yeah. It was nice. I had a nice day. Okay. I actually stayed for four hours. Four hours. Four hours. Four hours.

it's actually quite awkward to go home what do you do for four hours talk yeah it's very hard to leave a street party because it's on your street so it's like okay you people are boring me now I'm going to go back into my own house do you know what I mean it's a hard one

to leave people just watch you walk into your house it felt very like sins like that you know when everyone's just like standing outside a house and then one person just randomly goes to another person's house it felt like that It was nice

A few embarrassings First one My next door neighbor Direct next door neighbor Yeah Last week I said on the podcast I think we might be friends I said this right

She follows me on No And we're not friends Yeah I don't even know her surname But I'm the podcast I'm like So I think we were friends Like we get on really well

And then when we talk at the street plus And she's like I follow her on Instagram And I was like Oh my God I talked about you And I've massively over over-egged our friendship. She will have listened to the...

I bet you she's listening to the podcast. So fucking embarrassing. She just doesn't want to say because that... So fucking embarrassing. Because she isn't my friend. Isn't my friend. I don't know her that well. I'd like to be a friend.

She's a really nice woman, but we're not there. So that's embarrassing. Really embarrassing. Really embarrassing. So yeah, that's my awkward from the street party. Anything else? Oh, okay. Okay, yeah.

Okay. You know what? I'm going to forego my good this week. Oh, no. Because nothing that great has happened, and I've got so many awkwards. I... Look how brown your legs are. I know.

It's fake done. Oh, God, they look so good. It's a good one. Your legs look so good. They look so brown, ain't they? They look so good, but, like, just, like, musily. Oh, my God. You look so good.

It's the tan, I think. Do you want to feel really good about yourself? Mine are really hairy and pale. Are they? I can show you if you want. Yeah, go on, let's see. Can we take a picture for them? Yeah, we can well bad.

They're not bad. They're not good. They're not good. Not that hairy. Jesus. It's just blonde hair, but if you want to stroke it. Yeah. Oh, yeah, they're hairy.

Can't confirm that they are hairy. Anyway, sorry. Okay. Okay, so in Tenerife, Dave and I were in the supermarket, and it was a really quiet little supermarket. And the night before, we'd had black squid ink rice. Oh, so on your Instagram? Yes, fucking gorgeous.

Anyway, Dave had, after this meal, had a poo. and the poo was black because of the black squiddick was. He had literally shat himself. He was so scared. And I was too, and it took us a second to realize that it's because you had the black. Did he bring you in to show it? Literally, yes. He did?

Yes. He made you look at it. Yeah. Oh, my God. He's disgusting. He's disgusting. He's no boundaries. Yeah.

Oh, my God. And I was like, oh my God, what am I going to? Like, I need this is for his health. Like, I need to. A doctor light. And I was like, Dave, what did we eat last night? black squidding. Anyway, I can't believe you made you look at it. I've never seen anyone's poo that isn't my own apart from those random abandoned ones in my public use sometimes.

I've seen like 20 of Dave's. Oh my God. Anyway, gross. How weird. I've never seen one of Alex's, mind you, I've said this before. Disgusting. Takes himself off to poo. Because he's normal. Yeah. Anyway, later on then we were in the supermarket. Supermarket was really quiet and I said to him, I just said to him, I wonder if your next poo will be black, right? And And he was like, yeah, I don't, I don't know, might be out my system by now. Anyway, a second later, I swive around and this girl's like, oh, I thought that was your voice. She's like, is it Alex? I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry.

I wonder if your next pig will be black. The familiar dose of tones, an Alec flight. I nearly died. And she listens to the podcast, so she will hear this. And if you did hear me say that, I'm so sorry. Although the supermarket was so quiet and there's no one in there apart from us.

Did you assume that everybody was Spanish so you could get away with it? Exactly, yeah, never thought for one second and she's like, hi. You're a bigger sled than you know, Alex. Fuck it else. Dave just like run away. Fane comes with a prize, yeah.

Well, now everybody knows about Dave's Black Pooh. It wasn't embarrassing enough about one random person heard about it about it in the supermarket. Now, all of our tens of thousands of listeners get to hear about it too. You're welcome. So yeah.

Amazing. My final good is probably that I went to the street party. I also met someone who lives three doors up from me from the Isle of Man. Whoa! How weird is that? He's literally from like two doors down from where my dad lived. Yeah, so weird. And I've met my own double

who lives at the end of the road, at the other end of the road. Yeah. Got married this day before us. Really? Had a baby two weeks after us and is also going to bath for her anniversary next weekend. How old is she? Your age? But a bit older, but she does the same job as Alice. that's really weird really weird so we might be being stork

I think you're gonna be best friends yeah well we're going out for a drink oh yeah I've made a friend everyone I've made a mum friend yay mom friend and then babies at the same age that's really good yeah really cool she got a little boy

and yeah really yeah actually really nice like I mean she might hate me I might hate her I don't know but we're going out I mean I know I know I was so embarrassing because obviously you man from the island of man that everybody knows each other on the island man

she's like oh I know your family And I was like, I am known on this street, not in a good way. Because, yeah, my neighbour says she follows me on Instagram and it's just like, that's not good. That's not good. On this very street corner, I have stood, dressed as a blueberry, dressed as a roll of toilet roll, sat on a loo. Yeah, like, I have done some embarrassing shit on that road. Like, really, really embarrassing. Agreed.

And everybody's seen it. I fully agree. And now everybody can put a face to the name. Oh, that's that weird one from up the road. That's nice. Now we know her name. So. Yeah.

Love that for you. Love that. But I did make a friend, so, woo. That's for me. That's good. That's good. My bad, very quickly, is that I have realized that I send people memes all the time. Like, I send people memes all the time, like, constantly.

I'm saving stuff. I'm sending links, like, all the time. I just, things, funny things. It's a love language. Exactly. Things that remind me of people, whatever. No one. And I've realized people don't send stuff back to me.

I do. I do. You are the only person that does. Well, there you go. soon. Not all people. Not all friends. Not all friends. But most of them. Yeah. No one sends up back to me. And I was just looking at this WhatsApp group that I've got with a few friends. I was like,

I am the only contributor here. And people just look and like occasionally they'll laugh. I'm like, fuck you all. Fuck them all. Do you want to join my family WhatsApp group? Because that is solely how we communicate. Yes, please. I don't know if Katia can still hear us, but wait for a thumbs up to see if you're allowed in. No, she can't hear us. She's not listening. She is and she's just like, no, she's not coming in. Fair enough.

Well, I guess my final bad... Oh, yeah. Well, no, I've already had a bad. Oh, right. My other one is that after this podcast interview, I went into a huge downward spiral because I realised that my life was going to be completely fucking upended next March.

But... Yes. But... It's a lovely interview. So this week's guest is Kaggie Dunlop, who has a podcast called Saturn Returns, which was born out of her own Saturn return

and I didn't know what Saturn return was I don't think you really did either so we learned on the podcast which was very interesting Emma's now shit scared quite rightly of what's in store I had some realisations about my own Saturn return and yeah it was really interesting

fascinating and she's a delightful calm presence it's like a it's like a nice calm it did feel like that as my world was like completely exploding it was nice to have a sort of anchor and port in the store So without further ado, here is Caggy. Enjoy. Hi, Caggy.

Hello. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. I saw you very recently. I saw you just a few days ago at your flat because I recorded for your podcast Satin Returns. Yeah, it was a great conversation. It was. You said before it felt like that it really did feel a bit like therapy.

In a really good way. I love who? For me, I think. It was really nice. Yeah. And I think that is where we'd like to start is Saturn Returns, because I don't know about you, M, but I hadn't heard of a Saturn return before I discovered you on your podcast. Really? No, I'd never, ever heard of it. I don't, I mean, you will have heard of it, right? I'm guessing your face is like... No, my face is actually like, I'm actually mortified at myself. I don't really understand what is that. I don't...

Oh, I thought this would be right on your street. I know. This is what I mean. Like, I'm the worst... I'm the worst having the... interest in astrology because I very much cherry pick. I'm like, well, that applies to me and then the rest of it I don't understand. So I'd actually love to hear about Saturn. Amazing. Of course. Okay. Well, your Saturn return is essentially something that happens in your late 20s. As Saturn, the planet returns to the same place in the sky it was when you were born. So within the realms of astrology, this is viewed as your cosmic coming of age or your sort of initiation into adulthood. So at around 29 years of age, we tend to have these big

It's coming. It's big life lessons. And it can feel quite intense because often they all sort of hit us at once. So that's why usually at this time, sometimes like people's career will all fall apart and their relationship and their friendships. It will like all hit them at once. But equally, if you've been living in quite a sort of saturnian fashion, depending on your birth chart and all of these things and how you've been living your life so far, it can just mean up leveling. So it can mean having a child, getting married, getting that promotion. But the reason I started the podcast is because mine felt, you know, the former.

It was like everything, felt like it was falling apart, didn't know who I was, what I was supposed to be doing. And when someone told me about Saturn, I was just so fascinated by the concept and figured that everyone should know about it. But whether or not you look at it astrologically, I think that's a really difficult time as we approach 30 when we're supposed to have all of these things figured out and often we don't. And so, yeah, that's why I kind of centralised all my work around that particular area.

Can I ask what happened? Like, what was your Saturn return? Is that how you say it? Yeah. So during my Saturn, you have also a progressed lunar return, which is something different, but that happens before your Saturn return. And that can also mean a bit of emotional upheaval.

And during that time I was 27, I was living in L.A. And that's when things started to unravel in this way that was like, I was pursuing acting and music, but the more I kind of tried to force it or control it, the more resistance I hit and the more sort of out of control I felt. And I found that period of life very isolating, quite lonely. and like everyone else had filed their life into some kind of meaning and mine just didn't, I always describe it as like everyone was sent the handbook of life and mine was lost in the post

and then when I came back to London slightly with my tail between my legs because I hadn't achieved what I had hoped I would and was kind of coming back to London not starting again but it felt a little bit bit like that. And then I was releasing music and that was sort of going well, but it didn't feel I still kind of felt quite emotionally like I knew I wasn't probably doing the right thing. And then the big catalyst for me was a relationship ending, which can often be for people.

And my relationship at the time, it fell over my Saturn return exactly, it ended the month my Saturn return ended. And that really catapulted me. into everything I'm doing now, but it was a really painful breakup. The breakups tend to be. It was one of those ones, though, that you just don't see coming. And I think in sort of true form to Saturn return,

that's often the way they are, that kind of guillotine-style ending where you're just like, I'm single again. So do you know, did you know, does one know, when their Saturn return will be? so yes you can if you look it up it's quite easy to look up online you can get the exact dates and a lot of people obviously through listening to the podcast or reading the book are now doing that what i didn't anticipate by creating this work is that people would then become sort of satinophobic

and be like i've put the date in my diary and i'm terrified of what's going to happen i'm going to be honest kaghi you said the word guillotine i'm 28 i'm 29 in two months i'm like right what's coming yeah to be fair the language around it and if you look up a lot of stuff

around satem turn is like associated with karma discipline responsibility it's quite heavy and like considered a punitive

planet but actually the beautiful thing about it is once you're through the other side you can recognise that all of those things

were just helping you become your most authentic self right doesn't help when you're on this side of it I'm like that I think it's just about Like, if you've been living in alignment with things that are in, like, integrity and

authentic for you, it can just mean solidifying that. So, like he said, like, whether that's family or a promotion. But I think I was just off course. And so it kind of just snapped me back in a way that I wouldn't have been able to do on my own. And it often does that through a kind of rock bottom or like a spiritual awakening. And then from that point, you can build more solid foundations. Did you know when the, when the relationship ended, I guess, if that was the main catalyst? Did you just think, oh, fuck you saturn? Or did you like not know? Well, that's the thing. So I, when I first heard about it, I was in L.A. and became fascinated by the concept. At that time, because I was living in L.A. like everyone else, I was like, I'm going to write a script about

Saturn return. This is such an amazing idea. And then sort of parked the concept. And then went back to London and honestly was just, I was still very much dipping my toe into spiritual practices and leaning into the sort of esoteric world. But I wasn't like, oh, this is where my saturn. I didn't actually know specifically the dates at that point. And when I went through this relationship, I wasn't thinking, oh, this is my Saturn return. But at the same time, simultaneously I'd been talking to Nora, who's the astrologer for Saturn return. And she was sort of saying, she would say things about the relationship in terms of

other transits that I was going through that obviously were just quite confusing because she was like be careful you're going through like a Neptuneian fog

and I was like what's a Neptuneian fog? And then anyway when it wasn't actually until I wrote the book that I actually recognised that the relationship ended the same time

my Saturn ended so even at that point it wasn't like I was yeah it wasn't in the diary but I was just knew that I wanted to do something around that period of life and I also knew that I needed to go through it

to talk about it because when I was like going through it I was just like what's going on. I'm finding all of this really weird because I don't know when my sat in return is and I've never thought about it before because I didn't know the concept but my relationship, 10 year relationship ended when I was 29 and it was a guillotine style moment

Sorry. I'm so excited for mine now. Like, guys, my tenure. It's fine, you have it way more together than I ever did. I think that helps. But it was a, it was guillotine style, fashion, did not see it coming. He told me he was gay, out of nowhere, had absolutely no idea. And I was 29.

How old was he? 30. 30. Wow. Do men have satin returns? Yeah, they do. So it could have been his as well. Well, that's what I was thinking.

I mean, it's kind of like, that's the thing. It's about authenticity. So if you're not being true to yourself, it just really confronts you with that at that time. That's so weird. That's so weird. I'm going to do some digging later and when it is exactly. But that is really strange because that is, I think it was a month after I turned 29. Wow.

I think, September 13th, it's burned into my brain. That must have been intense. Yeah, it was. And you didn't, you just had. Absolutely no idea. No. We'd just been together forever, so it just didn't, just never occurred to me ever. There were no, at least I thought there were no signs, but they probably were, but I just wouldn't know.

So, yeah, it was interesting. Are you still friends? Yeah, really good friends. Yeah, really good friends. I mean, there you go. That is like a classic settlement from both of your sides. Yeah. Because it's kind of about being true to yourself.

Yeah. And sometimes I don't think we realize that we're not being true to ourselves. you know, through like societal conditioning expectations, trying to be validated by whether it's our peers or our parents. So we often start pursuing things from quite a young age that might not be right for us, you know, that align with our sort of intrinsic values. Yeah.

And then often during our Saturn, like, it's why you get people having big career shifts. It seems like it's out of nowhere. Like some people will just suddenly change. and start up a business, I'm like, well, that's random. But actually, it's probably been brewing in them for a really long time. They just, at that point, had the courage to change course. I don't want to put words in your mouth or, like, assume anything about your life.

But looking at the course of, like, how everything happened for you, I guess you kind of ended up on a trajectory at a young age that is quite hard to get off. Get off. Yeah. Like, you can't just become unfamous. Really? Well, you know what's funny about that is that's actually kind of what I wanted.

Because obviously, you know, to add context, I did a reality show when I was in my early 20s. And then when I was on there, I knew that it wasn't, that trajectory wasn't the one that I wanted to go down. But it was like I was already on the train. Do you know what I mean? It was going quite fast. And I just sort of jumped off it. And I remember at the time when I spoke to one of the heads of the company that it was NBC that did the show. And they said, you know, what do you want?

What do you want in order to stay? And I was like, I don't want to stay. And then he was like, well, what do you want then? And I said, normality. And I write about this in the book. And he was like, it's overrated. At that time, I think I felt like a hot air balloon. and taking off with no means of coming back down.

Like I just didn't feel like the master of my fate, just a bystander to it. And I didn't want that. And I think that's famous and interesting thing, especially at a young age, because you don't really know who you are, but you're going to be crafted into something by, whether that's the press,

might be a label that you're signed with, or a production company. And they're going to have an agenda for how they want you to be and sometimes you know hopefully for people that will be aligned with what they really want but often it's not because we don't know who we are at 21 21 god no no we're 21 yeah that's crazy young yeah and it's early yeah just in terms of like i'd say the world we kind of know you know what train you're getting on now if you do any kind of reality tv because we're so used to the formula yeah we didn't then no we sort of thought this will disappear

and like no one will know about it or it will be successful. You didn't think about the sort of everything else. Yeah. But in a weird way, perhaps my experience was a little more heightened because it was on TV. But I don't think it was necessary that different from anyone else my age because, you know, in your early 20s, we're trying different things on for size

and just seeing what fits. The only difference is, and we started talking about it before we were recording, is that you get pigeonholed in a certain area. And I think I've tried really hard to cultivate and create a life that feels very authentic to me and based on something that I love. But that also is part of the reason I'm able to do it. Do you see what I mean? It's sort of like a double-edged sword.

And I think in the UK especially we can be guilty of pigeonholing people and trying to keep them there. Women particularly. Yeah. It's like, oh, well, she did that. That's all she'll ever be. And I do notice that sometimes, but because I've done a lot of work on it myself, I'm okay with it. Whereas I think in my late 20s, I felt very much like that's all I'm ever going to be able to be. Yeah, and that's frustrating.

It was really frustrating. Yeah. But I think, you know, people are always going to try and limit others, especially if they limit themselves. I think that's what we have to recognize online is when someone, you know we all experience it to varying degrees but if someone's saying oh she can't do that or she's to this or she's to that you really have to recognize that they're speaking to themselves they're saying that's the limitation that they put on themselves

that's like they've told themselves they can't do something for whatever reason so they're just transferring that onto the internet onto a stranger they don't know god i've never thought about that that's actually like i've just like my world's just falling out from underneath me Quietly while we've been talking. But about how people only limit people who limit themselves limit other people. Of course, yeah. Because the biggest dreamers I know would never shit on anyone else.

That's the thing. But the people that comment online as well, like if you actually step away from that because obviously it can be upsetting. But like you say, the people that you are inspired by that are living a life that's incredible and not the people that's saying or she can't do that or she's do this well look at that because you must have had you i i'm imagining and i don't read it but i'm imagining that you've had a lot i'm like daily mail journalism yeah like you must have been fodder for a lot of that for your 20s yeah which i don't think i have i don't think i recognize at the time

probably i'm only starting to now the impact of that and also like as soon as i'm saying that i have to acknowledge that there's a voice in my head that's acknowledging the listener that might be thinking, oh well, you know, privileged girl, got famous young, why should I, you know, feel sorry for her? You're not asking anyone to feel sorry for you. No, but I know, but I'm just saying like that's what it's like, you know, it's like even online when people see someone that's got a lot and they might be speaking about anxiety or mental health and they're like, oh, well, they've got everything. They can't. And it's like we've got to stop that as well. because whilst I acknowledge I got dealt a good hand

and had a lot of opportunity, it was really hard being a 20-something-year-old girl in the public eye and being, you know, the way the daily male write about people is a very specific way that's kind of weaponises the way women feel about themselves already and uses it against each other. and also keeps this kind of fear-based mentality

where it's like, even as a reader, you know, it's sort of like the comment section of the Daily Mail, it's like the worst place in the media. It's the cruelest place. It's like, do not go there. But when, you know, I was in my 20s and I was, I would sometimes and I regret it. And I was also someone that would,

even when the show first aired, I would see, you know, there would be thousands of tweets and stuff and I'd be looking through them, trying to sort of process what was happening. And even if, you know, 999 of them were positive, that one out of a thousand that wasn't was the only one that I saw. Yeah. And again, to kind of reverse that thing of,

people that limit themselves will try and limit other people. You can only really feel shamed by something if you carry that in yourself. So you can only be made to feel insecure about something if you feel insecure about it in yourself. But again, like there aren't many 21-year-olds that have a thick skin that are like feeling super confident in their abilities and who they are. You're just kind of trying to navigate the world. And a lot of it is based on how people respond to you. You know, do you know what I mean?

I had, yeah, not too dissimilar experience when I was 17 and the Daily Mail would write about me throughout my late teens at the early 20s and I would without fail go to the comment section and I think, I mean it is self-harm but I think I was trying to validate my own insecurity a lot in a really perverse sort of way and I, and it was like all these people were right about me in my head now I'm like, well are they though? Like these grown adults, with all that to say about a 17-year-old. But, okay.

But exactly. And it's just become sort of spread out through social media. It's probably not as, I guess it depends who you are and how you're being spoken to. But yeah, it's a very, I don't know, I would like journalists to take a bit more responsibility over that because it's often women writing these articles about women. about women and it's this sort of toxic feminine's like shame cycle that we're in where it's like write horrible things about someone's cellulite and body the person that's reading it's like oh my god if they're being spoken to about like that then I'm even worse but also I'm kind of

enjoying that someone that has all these things is being degraded because it makes me feel a bit better it's that sort of schadenfreude mentality like someone else's pain gives you a little bit of pleasure. I also imagine, and again I come obviously from an area of extreme privilege and the way that I've been spoken about it makes

you'd be hard push to feel sorry for me which is Fairfax because I'm not asking anyone to feel sorry for me but I imagine doing the show that you did as well it's so easy for papers to strip you of humanity and people can convince themselves that they can say whatever about you because it's like oh well she's so lucky she's got this and this and this

And also, we have to acknowledge that whilst it was a reality show, it was very much not real life. Yeah. You know, and that's what I find hilarious when people still think that I, the version of me and Made in Chelsea was not who I am. It never has been, never was in terms of I did not rock around Chelsea in a Rolls Royce. I don't know anyone that does, to be honest. But even that, I was like, no, I know what you're trying to create. create, but that person that lives the life that you want to pick doesn't go around in Rolls-Royce. I'm so bolder.

But I would like... Drug drugs? I don't know who. I don't know who is, but... Jealousy. Maybe we should do that, Al. Do you think? Yeah.

It'd be good for the brand. Like, fake it till you make it. It's so fascinating. And I want to ask this question. Do you think you regret doing reality TV? Do you think you regret it? If you had a time over, would you still do it? For that time, probably from like 25 up until 30, even a bit after 30,

I was in a sort of paralyzing state of regret. Looking back, thinking I wish I made different choices, I wish I didn't do that, or I wish at least I took advantage of it rather than just jumping off the train. And then kind of not being a way. able to fully embrace where I was at. So I was just, and then within that, I became very much like, and I used this word delicately because I'm excluding victims of abuse. But I was like stuck in my own victim mentality of like, I, but it was like I was annoyed at myself. Do you see what I mean? Whereas now I don't like to have regrets about anything because I can see retrospectively that

how beautifully everything unfolds in a way that you can never predict and you could never map out for yourself. It's far more magnificent than we could. Like we like to think, okay, I want to achieve this and I'm at A and this is B and this is, I just walk and I get there. And then suddenly we get thrown off track and like take all these detours and go in these directions we never anticipated and we can feel annoyed about that. But actually it will either end up getting to where we want to be, but we'll just have picked up the wisdom we needed to get there, or we end up somewhere far greater than we could have ever imagined or conceptualized for ourselves.

And I see that now, and I see that very much post-Saturn return, and that's what I think my Saturn return was about, because, you know, if we kind of go more deeply into it, your Saturn return is like your big, I guess, kind of wake-up call in a way. but we also have Saturn squares and oppositions. So if you look back at your life at 7, 14, 21, up until your Saturn return, those are all sort of visits from Saturn. So we write about this in the book.

And whether or not you want to look at it astrologically, those are quite big key pivotal moments as we sort of have a sense of our identity, our autonomy. At 21, we kind of think we're an adult a bit. We think we know what we want and can make decisions for ourselves, but we often just mess it up. So I look back at my 21-year-old self with a lot more humility

because I was trying to present something that I thought would alleviate the feelings that I had throughout my teenage years that I didn't really know how to place in the world and that was more the sort of introspective side of me, the poetry, the melancholy, all these things that I didn't really see. as positive, that now I do.

Does that make sense? And so that, like, whilst I could sit here and say, I wish I would never do reality TV now, whilst that is true, the 21-year-old version of Kaggy wanted to for whatever reason because perhaps I wanted to present myself in that way for reasons that I've just kind of explained in my, you know, teen years and stuff, And I don't regret doing it because by doing it, it made me realize that that didn't make me happy. And it kind of put me on this weird journey and like quest for authenticity,

even though I didn't recognize it at the time. And now I feel like I'm in that place. And the difference is now, I know it's quite rare kind of to echo what you just said of when people start become famous, they can't stop. I actually think I'm incredibly lucky that I was famous in that sort of overnight fame way and then I managed to pull away and then I've managed to come back with more... I'd say I have more of a community than an audience. It's a very different energy.

An audience can kind of throw you up very quickly and tell you down whereas a community is like along for the ride. Yeah. And distinction. Yeah. And I think that I'm very fortunate to have experienced both you know, to have that kind of taste of fame and to be able to pull it away.

I like what you just said then because I think that's something that I think about a lot is, you know, I try and not have regrets. I mean, I still do, but I try. But I try and have full respect for what the old me wanted in that time at that moment because that was just as valid then as what I feel now is and I think we can forget that right we can just think oh I was young and

stupid but actually that was just as important for me at that time I think that's really important and also what's the use in like shaming our past version of self like we are I kind of live by the belief that we're all doing the best we can with the tools and the self-awareness we have available so what you know 21 year old us that's all we knew and we're just trying to survive and fit in and be liked and of course now we do things differently because we know more and we know the outcome of certain things and that's just part of the journey and that's how we kind of that's why failure is also so important you know I think we stop ourselves from doing things because we're so afraid of failing but actually I've learnt so much

from failing, and my 20s in many ways felt like I experienced a lot of them. I want to talk about that, but I just, I'm really interested in the regret thing, because do you feel like you forget, do you feel like you had anything to forgive of yourself? Do you feel like you put your regrets down? When you have a regret, or when, and I think people do have regrets, there is such a feeling of shame around them. And you do carry it. I imagine forever, I think forever. And I don't know if you have any advice just based on your experiences of what you do with that regret, where you put it. Do you honour it or do you try and cure it? Where do you put it? It's a great question. It's actually something that I'm

working on sort of in real time at the moment. So this is very much a working progress and the advice I can give, I'll give the best I can because it's only fully coming to my awareness because like I said in my in my 20s I did have a lot of shame over the decisions I had made and it's heavy shame's a very very heavy feeling and it's all internalized and it kind of sits in the body and whilst I've shifted my perspective and feel very grateful to be where I'm at now and feel like I'm creating a life that feels very aligned so if someone comes up to me and they're like I love the podcast and I love the book, I just get the most heartwarming feeling. Like, I love it. But if

someone comes up and they're like, I like Jume and Chelsea, it does still give me this little like thing because I think I tried so hard to move away from that. And I think it is, it's not just the show. I think that to make this kind of relevant to anyone that's listening, when we make decisions that we regret and we mess up and we do bad things or whatever. Like when we wrap that up and shame and kind of bury it, it doesn't go any, I think like saying it doesn't go anywhere, but that doesn't mean that we have to carry it forever. It's just unpacking that is the delicate thing. And I think sometimes we need support, whether that's a therapist, to kind of really hold space for that process. Because when you shame yourself about it, how can you

bring it out and like hold it. Do you know what I mean and let it go? So I'm kind of in this process at the moment of unpacking like why I hold shame and to kind of go back to a point I made earlier. I think we can only if if someone makes us feel shamed if like a comment online or like a comment from a friend or a boyfriend or a partner makes us feel that sense of shame, it's usually an indication that we're carrying it. Of course like I'm not saying. If I'm not so, if someone's actually being really shaming to you, that's different, but sometimes, like, they might not be. And it just puts us back in that space. And that's something that I've noticed about myself and trying to, you know, make peace with those past versions of myself

and fully understand or fully, like, accept, you know. And I'm not 100% sure whether I'm there, but I'm getting much closer and one of the sort of ways that I'm trying to do that at the moment is like taking the time to reframe all the things that I felt shamed for and actually celebrate them

you know so I think for women particularly as well I was just listening on the way here to call her daddy's podcast with Madison Beer and she was talking about like being sexually shamed as like a young girl

and stuff and it just even just listening to it, I was like how much I didn't think stuff like that impacted me, but just the way that kind of thinking just as like it's all coming, but you know, women sort of being overly sexualized and shamed for that very thing. It's a really complex part of society that I don't think we fully acknowledge. and we carry it and we internalize it because it's our fault as women that we're sexual. And that's just something that I'm trying to like unpack.

It's kind of like sexual shame. Yeah. And a lot of us probably have it and don't even know that we carry it. Yeah. Because it's so normalized to feel that way. Right. Oh my God. Yeah.

if you think back to like, I don't know, relationships you had at school or not even relationships or like just behaviours or whatever that you, as a teenager and then you look back as an adult, you're like, oh God, I wouldn't have done any of that. But then it's just like, but then why do I feel so angry or so gross about something that happened to a child? Because if you saw another child doing what you did as a child, you'd be like, oh, children, teenagers, and what are they like?

But when it's you, you're like, so you've got this like adult anger for a teenager's actions, which is actually a bit wild. Yeah. And in this, the interview that I was listening to, she, I didn't realize, but like, if a young girl is putting up anything online, like, it's called fatherless, they're like, oh, fatherless behavior. And it's like, shaming the girl for, like, being, and it's like, what? Daddy issues. It's the worst thing. It's like, how are you blaming women for their dad's fucking them up? But this is what I mean. Like the accountability is all on the woman. Yeah. And that sort of transcends like all forms of media in the way that women get teared down for things that often men do to them.

I don't know how we got onto this. But anyway, it kind of ties into like what I'm trying to unravel about myself. And I think it also kind of ties into this place that I'm at in my life where I think Society tells us that women in their 30s are like ready to be discarded and if they haven't been picked by a man and they kind of lose their worth and that they shouldn't turn grey or get wrinkles or all of these things and that we become less than. But actually I feel that it's because we become more than but society tries to keep us small because it's afraid of that and having to unpack like everything that goes into it. And I think a big part of

that. It's like a woman that owns her sexuality and doesn't feel shame by it is a powerful thing. It's terrifying to everyone else. Yeah, it's terrible. Like, and not, not to make it a sort of men versus women thing because it's not about that at all, it's, but it kind of just goes far deeper. It's like, I don't know, I'd really invite women that perhaps are listening to this. I'm sure a lot of your audience is female to kind of start questioning some of this stuff because even like what we talked about when you came on the podcast that we don't we just absorb it and don't try and actually decondition or even question it or even question it's just like oh that's the way it is that sentence that you said is so I to me that is completely spot on in that when we

become more than suddenly we have viewed. does less than and our value becomes less than. And it's so true. And that works straight into the hands of the patriarchy, right? It's perfect. Exactly. It makes so much sense. Yeah, I love that. It's almost like someone else when it was like, okay, this is where they really like initiate into that stage and kind of fully step into knowing who they are. So let's put out loads of stuff to make them feel as disempowered as possible. Yeah, let's tell them who they should be. Yeah, and like make them feel preoccupied with sort of altering their bodies and changing their faces and dyeing their hair

and thinking that they need to have all the beauty treatments and buy all the clothes so that they don't recognize their own power. And stay small. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, stay busy. That's crazy. I mean, it's not crazy.

I mean, it is crazy. It's just how, like, it's annoying. When you start picking it, you're like, oh, God, this is the biggest bun. It's like the top drawer in, like, your mom's cupboard. just like full of absolute chaos. Straight, like air, like, iPhone, headphones, string, everything. But it still, it's still, it just amazes me how so much of this stuff, like I never so much has even questioned any of this,

like probably not until about five years ago. And I was, and it was because I was forced to, I was like, you know, lead to water. That's not the right phrase. You know what I mean? I mean, you know, someone had to do it for me, had to, like, bring me to the point where I'd be like, oh, yeah, that isn't right. Like, oh, I'm going to question that. Oh, I'm going to challenge that. And it just, it just baffles me. And I guess this is something that probably I still feel a bit of shame about. It just baffles me that we're just so, we so blindly go with the status quo and that we don't question and challenge.

And, like, the outrageous things that some of the outrageous things that our society puts on us and that we just, quietly accept. I just find it crazy. I know. But I guess at the same time, you know, this whole sort of selling empowerment, like if we were taught to feel complete and wonderful about ourselves, then capitalism wouldn't exist in the way that it does. Yeah. And I do think humans are generally good at just following back and just going with the status quo yeah and not questioning and yeah i don't know it's just it's interesting yeah so did you when you're with your satin return did you feel like do you i don't know because i don't know how it works and obviously i've got this impending sense of dread that it's coming um how long

does it last for and did you feel while you were in it like you've just like when mercury is in retrograde you're just going to get through this time of absolute hell and then everything will be better or did you sort of come back and look at it all retrospectively so it lasts about for the first part it lasts about two and a half years oh christ i'm terrified but at the time i like i said i wasn't strangely i i was sort of aware and I wasn't because I remember actually I found a like a word document that me and Nora the astrologer had been she'd done a reading for me and she'd sent back like all these notes and stuff and I'd then commented under the notes and she'd said you're going through your Saturn return

and then but the the pre the stuff before that was like about creativity and a new project and I'd written underneath I was like guess what the project I'm working on is called like Saturn return and that was when I thought I was going to make it into a TV show so who knows maybe I still will I think I should but it wasn't I wasn't thinking when stuff was going wrong this is my Saturn return I was just thinking that stuff was going wrong do you know I was like preoccupied with like is this the right relationship that I'm supposed to be in because it doesn't really feel that right but I'm 29 and everyone's kind of getting engaged or having kids and so this kind of fits my life and then with the career shame i was pursuing music and i you know like

i said i was releasing music but i had like severe performance anxiety that was so painful that made me be like i don't know how i can actually do this as a career and anyone that works in the music industry will know it's sort of feast or famine it's really hard it's a really hard thing to pursue but then i also was had the sort of the hangover of the fame of maiden chelsea that was this sort of explosive overnight thing and then just really felt like in comparison to that, like in the shadows of that? Does that make sense?

That's a really horrible conflicting place to be because it's like most people if they're trying to make it in the music industry get to do it in the privacy of their own. And I didn't have that. No, so everybody's watching you try something which is to be watched trying is the hardest. When I have like that much I'm sorry like music for me is the most

personal, vulnerable place that exists in me. And so to put that out, like, I couldn't sing in front of anyone for most of my life. The first time I ever sung in front of anybody was on Maiden Chelsea. That was my first ever gig. And it was filmed by six cameras, every angle going out on national TV. But it was because I was like, they orchestrated that because they'd said, you know, what do you like to do? And I said I like singing, but I'm absolutely terrified to do it in front of it.

Like, I went to drama school. I did a singing semester and I couldn't get up in the class. Like, I actually just could not open my mouth. And then I was suddenly doing, my family was like, what was going on? What do you mean? You're singing on the first episode. And I think from their side, they probably thought, if this is awful, this is great TV. And if it's great, it's great TV.

So there was no real, and I didn't really recognize that naively at the time. and then that sort of catapulted me into this weird world where I was like navigating fame whilst doing music on the side but the music industry I was so green like I didn't know anything I like had barely ever performed and was just starting to write music

and it felt like there were these two trajectories which was like use Maiden Chelsea ride that wave and exploit it for all that you can and kind of get the more pop starry thing off the back of that all completely duck out and start from the beginning. And I took that route, but then, like you said, it was this weird thing because then the press would like pick up on things

and be like, oh, mixed reviews for like khaki's foot. And it was just like so horrible. Because I didn't have, because I ducked out, I didn't have any agent or not like I didn't have any team. I just was like doing it from the very beginning, again, quite naively and then had that kind of audience that wasn't my audience

for music. So it was that audience that were like, let's tear her down. I mean obviously I had some people that just like really loved me and supported me and some of them have followed me the whole way through which is such a lovely thing. But the pathway from like reality

TV to anything really is not, especially music is not a well-trod path that many have done successfully. No, I can't think of anyone. No, and people probably assume that if you have that, I have a level of fame, like it's going to be easy for you to, you know,

springboard into something else. Exactly, yeah. I think it can be, it depends the way you do it, but I just did it in this like, I want to start again and I want to learn the proper way. But, and luckily, you know, when I was releasing music before I started the whole Saturn Returns project, it was, it had a really,

nice reception like it felt really good but i honestly felt like a little bit traumatized from the early years because imagine it's like you want to be a singer or you like singing and you go and do a school concert and like the whole of the auditorium like laughs at you that's kind of what it felt like that's like i could i just couldn't i could i could i i die and it's like you're basically there naked like vulnerable on stage yeah no um oh my god And I'm not to, look, it wasn't that bad, but because it was, I, I felt so not confident in any way that, like, all I needed was one person to kind of be unsure. And I was like, oh, no. Yeah.

Did you move to LA for singing, like, to pursue singing? Yeah. So I went there kind of, because it was the kind of entertainment. Also, because a lot of people had sex, because I was also doing acting in London. And when I would go off roles and stuff, they would often be like, the reality. TV thing isn't really whereas in the States it didn't matter

but then I ended up doing yeah a lot more music there and that's the project that I started putting out and I did actually go and do another project in during the pandemic that I'm going to release because it's almost like

I now know from so many people that I've spoken to on the podcast and all the work that I've done like the thing you're most afraid of like fucking do that and just like also I'm going to got to a point now where I don't I don't want to be a pop star I don't need anyone to validate me it's like it's a soul thing for me like it makes me feel so happy to be

able to write and express myself creatively and I think a lot of us feel that way but we just kind of gets shamed out of us or like oh well that's not my career so I'm not going to do that anymore whereas I kind of just want to be like fuck it I'm going to do it I love that because I can and I want to. What was moving to LA like because you, what age were you, did you say, sorry? 27. So that was in the period when it was really fraught. You were kind of dealing with a lot of shame and regret.

And I imagine it was like an anxious time, not to put words in your mouth. Yeah. I think I was in a relationship at the time that I think he wanted to sort of settle down and have kids. And I just didn't feel that was right for me or like my. my past. I just really craved freedom. And I think I wanted to escape a little bit. And when I initially, now looking back, like, L.A. feels like such a terrifying thing to do. But I very freely would just move country and not really. Well, imagine Al, that kind of level of spontaneous. I know. I mean, also, I moved to Australia after Maine, Chelsea. That's how much I, like, that's how

far I wanted to get. But I do love Australia. yeah um and i can imagine london felt very small after you did that it did after that and that's what's really interesting about moving away like coming back and feeling sort of anchored in who i am and what i want to do it's like london's just a complete different place it's city i love it yeah whereas around 27 i was like i don't think i ever want to live her again yeah because it did feel very small and i said right in the book i'm like the ghost of me and Chelsea passed and too many ex-boyfriends lurked around many corners. Fair enough.

But like to me, LA feels like I'm just imagining you at that point when you're probably a bit lost. Yeah. And you just don't know what to do when you're kind of... Like most people in LA. Exactly. And you get there and you're just in this sort of sea of drifting souls. Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds like a very, very tough place.

It's tough. From what I've heard, from people that have moved there. and then they've not enjoyed it hasn't been what they expected and it's just I've heard it's one of those places that like choose you up and spit you out and I imagine it to like heighten everything that you're feeling and yeah it probably did but I think there's a reason that I gravitated towards it you know I often describe LA as a place where fame is like their religion and beauty and youth are these commodities and so often it attracts people that have this appetite for fame or escapism often both and I probably did but it does the facade of it slips over time like the

sort of glossy coat wears off a little bit and and the underbelly is that it's like a lot of people there to pursue something that a dream that might not be realized but equally there's a lot of people that do um I just think yeah I look back at that time I was so lucky to be able to go and to have that experience, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to go back. I felt it really lonely. Really? Yeah, really lonely. You seem very grounded, I guess would be the word now, to like, to your life.

Yeah. It doesn't, there doesn't feel like there's any energy that isn't, like, calm and where it should be. You know what? Loads of people say that. I'm like, really? Someone, I went and did this panel talk. I didn't know if I told you.

do this the other day, but it was one of those ones where I was, you know, I was sitting with people that I have sort of idolized in a way, like having this, these conversations and whenever I spoke afterwards, this voice comes into my head that's like, what did you just say? What does that even mean? Like, do you know what you're talking about? I'm like, no, I don't really. And then afterwards, this woman said she was like, looking at me, and she was like, you've got a really calm energy about you. I was like, oh, thanks. And she was like, yeah, you just, you make make me feel like everything's going to be okay by you being here. And I was like, really?

Yeah. I think we're all in a lot of trouble. No, it's true. I can't imagine you being rattled. I really can't. I just think a lot about stuff. So I kind of can articulate feelings and everything. But equally, I am still quite prone to being quite anxious.

I probably don't help that by having. loads of tea, drink loads of tea. I mean, that could be so much worse. Like, you could be like, I'm doing loads of cocaine. Yeah, I drink loads of tea. That whole lifestyle. Yeah, my advice is these days a tea. So, yeah, that probably reflects someone that's quite calm and grounded.

I think so. Decaf tea as your friend. Yeah. Yeah, I need to have more. But, yeah, I guess I do. I guess I do. You seem very calm. I'm very good.

I imagine, like, okay, imagine a crisis before. falls us now. Like, either side of me would be very different energy in the crisis. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. I'd be like on the ceiling. Yeah. Alex will explode. I can't. I do think I can catastrophize about things though because, you know, that's the other side to thinking about things a lot. It's like when something hypothetically might go wrong. Yeah. I'll start overanalyzing why that might be and I have to stop myself from doing that. that's just part of the female condition. I think it's just the condition.

I don't think it's specific to female. I agree, except we talked about this the other day and actually just last night, after the alarm went, you know, all our alarms went on our phones. Yeah, it freaked me out. Well, you won't. They probably do that on purpose.

They're probably like, she can't handle this. We won't give that to her. But everybody else's alarms went. And when we got into bed last night, because obviously I've just had the baby and I said to my Alex, I was like, oh, God, it really makes you think, you know, maybe it's just,

nuclear bomb or something's going to come. Like, why are they giving us this? Like, something bad's going to be happening, surely. And then I looked at home and I was like, do you not worry about this stuff? He just looked to me, it's like, no. I was like, what do you mean? No. Like, and I was like, do you never, does that never, this stuff never worries you?

He's like, no, I don't want to suffer twice. I was like, God damn that logic. God damn that logic. I would love to live in my husband's head for a day, just a day. Just a day. I'm like, just look at you like, so blissfully empty in there. The alarm annoyed him. Like the alarm just, he was like, oh God.

that's loud. It didn't make him think like, well, the world's going to end. I was, I imagine that's your first thing. Just like a little bit mild annoyance. I can't relate. I just can't relate. And yours was, this is the beginning. This is the end. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've always said this about the apocalypse. I wouldn't run. I wouldn't fight. I would just die because I couldn't be bothered. I wouldn't want to live in a post-apocalyptic world. It just doesn't sound much fun. But now I've got a baby. Yeah, you have to do. It's everything. Yeah. So now I'm like, great. So now we have to try and survive and she'll be fuck all help

because she's absolutely tiny she can't walk she can't carry around okay you really do catastrophe I'm just spiraling

yeah I mean obviously yeah I've got my sat in return coming I'm freaking out I need can I just

Google the date to know oh Christ I can't fall apart now I've got a lot of friends that went through it

and it just was things leveling up thank you I don't even think that's true but I appreciate you're saying that to me. When's my

Saturn return? I just put in my birthday and it's come up with the date that... No way. Not the date, but the month Yeah, September 2017. Well, look, mine's coming in March. I can't wait for that. Me neither.

I have a dependable now. I can't fall apart. See, before I didn't care. I was like, everything can go to shit. It doesn't matter. It can't. now. Oh no. Oh, God. So my first waxing square was July 2001 and then my August 2008. These do actually feel like quite pivotal times. I'm dreading that now. March. Yeah, March will be fun. Oh, oh well. I'm going to book a holiday for March. Me too. And so then, you know, a holiday's going to have to be two and a half years long. That's how long. That's what I can do. That's fine.

Oh no. Oh, okay. Well, on that happy note. Thank you so much for joining us. I hope I haven't terrified you too much about it. I have. But what do you need to prepare, fail to prepare and prepare to fail? So knowledge is power. Now I know I'm armed with the knowledge that it's coming. Yeah, just having that awareness, I think. That's going to help. It's got to. This is what we actually had an astrologist on the podcast, really. recently and she said that astrology is the weather and knowledge about it is basically the umbrella. Yeah.

So at least now, I've had my gaol, I've had my warning. I've had the Apple, the phone, there, siren go. So now I can just bang down that. And I'll see anyone for two and a half years. I'll try and get on top of everything. But at least I'll have your podcast and your book. You'll have my podcast and the book. And also we've just, we're launching courses as well.

Amazing. Kind of helping people like navigate that time. So that's really exciting. Nice. Yeah, I need that. Yes, I'll see you there. Oh, okay. I'm over mine, but I still need it anyway.

We'll put the links to all of that in the show notes. Amazing, thanks. And where can people find you online? You can find me on Instagram at Kaggy's World and Saturn returns at satemturns.com. Amazing. Thank you so much. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.

You know, I'm sorry. Thanks.